Joshua X. Wahl Deposition

Case 2:15-cv-02193-LSC Document 217-3 Filed 09/22/17 Page 1 of 135 FILED
2017 Sep-22 PM 03:54

U.S. DISTRICT COURT
N.D. OF ALABAMA
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA
SOUTHERN DIVISION
Civil Action Number 2:15-cv-02193-LSC
GREATER BIRMINGHAM
MINISTRIES, et al.,
PLAINTIFFS,
VS.
STATE OF ALABAMA,
et al.,
DEFENDANTS.
DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA X. WAHL
THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 2016
JOB NUMBER 205607
Freedom Court Reporting. Inc 877-373-3660

Case 2:15-cv-02193-LSC Document 217-3 Filed 09/22/17 Page 2 of 135
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1 S T I P U L A T I O N
2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between
3 the parties through their respective counsel,
4 that the deposition of JOSHUA X. WAHL may be
5 taken before Donna Winters, Commissioner and
6 Notary Public, State of Alabama at Large, at the
7 law offices of Maynard, Cooper & Gale, 2400
8 Regions/Harbert Plaza, 1901 Sixth Avenue North,
9 Birmingham, Alabama 35203, on the 9th day of
10 February, 2016 commencing at 1:00 p.m.
11 DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA X. WAHL
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1 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
2 the signature to and the reading of the
3 deposition by the witness is reserved, the
4 deposition to have the same force and effect as
5 if full compliance had been had with all laws and
6 rules of Court relating to the taking of
7 depositions.
8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that it
9 shall not be necessary for any objections to be
10 made by counsel as to any questions, except as to
11 form or leading questions, and that counsel for
12 the parties may make objections and assign
13 grounds at the time of the trial, or at the time
14 said deposition is offered in evidence or prior
15 thereto.
16 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
17 notice of filing of this deposition by the
18 Commissioner is waived.
19 In accordance with Rule 5(d) of Alabama Rules of
20 Civil Procedure, as amended, effective May 15,
21 1988, I, Donna Winters, am hereby delivering to
22 James W. Davis, Esquire, the original transcript
23 of the oral testimony taken on the 9th day of

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1 February, 2016, along with exhibits.
2 Please be advised that this is the same and
3 not retained by the Court Reporter, nor filed
4 with the Court.
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1 E X H I B I T S
2 EXHIBIT PG DESCRIPTION
3 DX-1 9 Plaintiffs' Initial Disclosures Under
4 FRCP Rule 26(a)(1)
5 DX-2 20 Plaintiffs' Responses to Secretary of
6 State John H. Merrill's First Set of Discovery to
7 Plaintiffs
8 PX-1 102 Election Officials' Affidavit for
9 Identifying Qualified Elector
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17 I N D E X
18 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NUMBER
19 Mr. Davis 7 - 65
20 131 - 133
21 Ms. Drum 65 - 80
22 133 - 134
23 Ms. Merle 81 - 130

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2 MR. DEUEL ROSS and MS. NATASHA C. MERLE,
3 Attorneys at Law, 40 Rector Street, 5th Floor,
4 New York, NY 10006-1738, appearing for the
5 Plaintiffs.
6 MR. JAMES BLACKSHEAR, Attorney at Law, P.O.
7 Box 626, Birmingham, Alabama 35201, appearing for
8 the deponent.
9 OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, State of
10 Alabama, by Mr. James W. Davis, 501 Washington
11 Avenue, Montgomery, Alabama 36130, appearing for
12 the Defendants.
13 MAYNARD, COOPER & GALE, by Ms. Starr Turner
14 Drum, 2400 Regions/Harbert Plaza, 1901 Sixth
15 Avenue North, Birmingham, Alabama 35203,
16 appearing for the Defendant, Governor Bentley in
17 his official capacity.
18 ALSO PRESENT: Robin Wahl.
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1 I, Donna Winters, a Court Reporter of
2 Birmingham, Alabama, acting as Commissioner, and
3 a Notary Public for the State of Alabama at
4 Large, certify that on this date, as provided by
5 Rule 30 of the Alabama Rules of Civil Procedure,
6 and the foregoing stipulation of counsel, there
7 came before me, JOSHUA X. WAHL, witness in the
8 above cause, for oral examination, whereupon the
9 following proceedings were had:
10
11 JOSHUA X. WAHL,
12 having been first duly sworn, was examined
13 and testified as follows:
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15 COURT REPORTER: Usual stipulations?
16 MR. BLACKSHEAR: He will read and sign.
17 MR. DAVIS: Yes.
18 MS. MERLE: Yes.
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20 EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVIS:
21 Q. Mr. Wahl, you wish to reserve the right to
22 read and sign your deposition, do you not?
23 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Would you state your name for the record,
2 please?
3 A. Joshua Xerxes Wahl.
4 Q. Where do you live, Mr. Wahl?
5 A. I live at 8971 Lentzville Road in Athens,
6 Alabama.
7 Q. My name is Jim Davis. I represent the
8 Secretary of State, the Secretary of Law
9 Enforcement, and the State of Alabama in a
10 lawsuit that's been filed about Alabama's photo
11 ID law, a law that requires photo identification
12 for voting. Are you familiar with that law?
13 A. I am somewhat, yes.
14 Q. You have been identified by plaintiffs, Mr.
15 Wahl, as a person who might have information, so
16 I'm here today to ask you some questions about
17 what information you might have about that law.
18 First of all, though, let me find out a little
19 bit about you. What do you do for a living?
20 A. I'm a small business owner.
21 Q. Tell me about your business.
22 A. We sell things mail order, camping
23 products, outdoor products, for a living.

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1 Q. Do you have a brick and mortar store?
2 A. No.
3 Q. How do you sell; over the Internet?
4 A. Primarily.
5 Q. Mail order?
6 A. Yes, mail order.
7 Q. Who works with you in that business?
8 A. Some other members of my family.
9 Q. Tell me about your educational background.
10 Did you attend a college or university?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Where did you go to school?
13 A. I was home-schooled.
14 Q. Are you married, Mr. Wahl?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have children?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you work with siblings?
19 A. I do.
20 (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number 1
21 was marked for identification, a copy of which is
22 attached to the original of the transcript.)
23 Q. Mr. Wahl, I want to show you a document

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1 that's been marked as Defendants' Exhibit 1. Mr.
2 Wahl, this is a document that plaintiffs have
3 submitted, where they discuss and list people who
4 may have information about the suit; and I've
5 marked a particular paragraph, paragraph 11, and
6 I want you to take all the time you would like to
7 review it, but they list you there as a person
8 who may have information regarding "the manner in
9 which HB 19" -- that's our photo ID law --
10 "denies and/or abridges the right to vote in
11 violation of the VRA or Voting Rights Act."
12 MR. ROSS: Object to the form.
13 A. All right.
14 Q. Do you have information about how, in their
15 view, the photo ID law abridges the right to
16 vote?
17 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Object to form.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And what information do you have?
20 A. Well, I have my personal experience.
21 Q. Okay. What is your personal experience?
22 A. Well, I registered to vote in, I believe it
23 was '96. I voted pretty much -- to the best of

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1 my memory, I've never missed an election voting
2 until the provisions of this particular law
3 started going into effect. The first two
4 elections, which were a primary and a runoff, I
5 was able to vote by the fact that the law has a
6 provision, as I'm sure y'all are aware, of two
7 poll workers being able to identify you and vote.
8 However, in the general election that year, I was
9 not allowed to vote because poll workers weren't
10 comfortable signing the affidavit.
11 Q. Was that 2014?
12 A. It was.
13 Q. So two poll workers in earlier elections in
14 2014 were able to identify you; but in November
15 of 2014, they were not?
16 MS. MERLE: Objection.
17 A. They were unwilling to.
18 Q. They were unwilling to.
19 A. Same poll workers.
20 Q. Okay. So did you know those poll workers?
21 A. Some of them I know just from voting. Some
22 of them -- I've lived in the same small community
23 my entire life. Some of them I know because

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1 we're neighbors and we've had other transactions
2 with them. Yes, I know them, one way or another.
3 Q. Do you have photo identification, Mr. Wahl?
4 A. No, certainly not for this type of -- that
5 are required of this law, in any event.
6 Q. Is there a reason why you do not have photo
7 identification?
8 A. There is.
9 Q. What is that reason?
10 A. I object based on a firmly held religious
11 conviction I have.
12 Q. Do you mind if I ask you about your
13 religion, just so I can understand the basis of
14 your objection?
15 A. That's fine.
16 Q. What religion do you observe?
17 A. Christianity. And I'm aware that all
18 Christians don't hold the same belief as I do.
19 Q. I would like to understand a little better.
20 What is the basis for your religious objection?
21 A. Well, it's a number of passages in the
22 Scripture, but primarily Revelation 12. In
23 particular, I object to the biometric nature of

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1 IDs in Alabama which started pursuant to the REAL
2 ID Act. And there's a passage in Revelations 12
3 where it says that the forthcoming mark of the
4 beast will be a number of a man. Biometrics by
5 its nature is a number of a man. You know,
6 that's what makes me uncomfortable, and that goes
7 against my convictions.
8 Q. I'm not sure I understood something. Did
9 you say the biometric nature of the law?
10 A. Of the photo identification in Alabama.
11 Q. What do you mean by "biometric"?
12 A. Biometric is a commonly used term, right?
13 Are you familiar with it?
14 Q. I know the term, but I want to make sure we
15 understand each other, so I would like to know
16 what you mean by it.
17 A. Biometric literally means the measurement
18 of life, and it's anything that is unique to a
19 person that can be measured to uniquely identify
20 them. Some examples would be a fingerprint, iris
21 scan. In this case, we're talking about a facial
22 recognition scan.
23 Q. Are you a member of a local congregation

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1 composed of people who share these beliefs?
2 A. Some of them do, and some of them don't.
3 Q. Do the other members of your family share
4 this belief?
5 A. Some of them do, and some of them don't.
6 Q. Fair enough. The ones in your area of whom
7 you're aware of who share these beliefs about
8 photo identification, what is the racial
9 diversity of that population?
10 A. You mean percentage-wise? I'm a little
11 uncomfortable thinking of people along racial
12 lines, to be honest with you, so that question is
13 hard for me to answer because of that.
14 Q. I respect that. Let me ask this way. Are
15 there African-American members of the local
16 congregation in which you participate?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. How many, would you say?
19 A. I couldn't say an exact number.
20 Q. Are there people that you think of as
21 Hispanic who are members of the local
22 congregation?
23 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Your local congregation, would you say it's
2 predominantly Caucasian?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. I ask these questions, Mr. Wahl, because
5 the plaintiffs have made claims of racial
6 discrimination. So what I want to understand is,
7 the law, the photo identification law, would you
8 say that it affects you because of your race or
9 because of your religion?
10 A. Let me ask you a question. Do you think it
11 matters so much why people are discriminated
12 against or just the fact that they're
13 discriminated against?
14 Q. Well, for these purposes, I'm the one that
15 has to ask the questions, and the plaintiffs have
16 specifically made racial discrimination claims,
17 so I want to understand if you believe that
18 you've been discriminated against because of race
19 or because of religion.
21 MR. BLACKSHEAR: They put that on the
22 record, but you still answer.
23 THE WITNESS: All right.

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1 A. You know, if I started guessing at why I
2 was discriminated against, then I'm guessing
3 what's in somebody else's mind; but obviously, I
4 am not African-American, so. Fair enough? I'm
5 not trying to hedge your question.
6 Q. I understand.
7 A. I have guesses at reasons, but that's all
8 they are. And I would definitely say that, you
9 know, it would probably have more to do with my
10 religion than my race, but that's -- that is --
11 you know, that's only my feeling, and it has no
12 bearing in reality.
13 Q. Let me ask it this way. Is it true that
14 the reason why you choose not to have photo
15 identification is not because you're white, it's
16 because of deeply held religious beliefs? Would
17 you agree with that?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Now, do you know the names of any of the
20 poll workers who you saw in 2014?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What are some of the names of some of them?
23 A. Diane Bates, she's the inspector of our

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1 polling location. And I know Mrs. Aderholt was
2 there. It does vary some from one election to
3 another, but I know the two of them in particular
4 were there.
5 Q. Where is your polling place?
6 A. Pleasant Grove Volunteer Fire Department.
7 Q. Pleasant Grove Fire Department?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know any other poll workers who
10 you've seen since like 2014 forward?
11 A. I couldn't say specifically which ones were
12 at which election.
13 Q. Were Ms. Bates or Ms. Aderholt, were either
14 of those the ones who identified you in the
15 earlier elections in 2014?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did they say why they were uncomfortable
18 signing an affidavit in November of 2014?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did they say?
21 A. They gave multiple reasons, the first one
22 being that the affidavit that is prescribed by
23 law -- and I'm not sure whether it's actual law

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1 or whether it was regulations written by the
2 Secretary of State, because when there are pink
3 copies, it's hard to tell which is which. But
4 there's an affidavit that's prescribed by that
5 law that allows two poll workers, but it's a
6 two-pronged affidavit. The first one basically
7 says that they positively identify you; in other
8 words, they know who you are, that's my
9 understanding of it. And the second part is that
10 you don't have a photo ID on your person. Well,
11 particularly, Ms. Bates said she was not
12 comfortable signing that affidavit because she
13 had no way of knowing whether or not a particular
14 individual has a photo ID on their person or not.
15 Q. Okay. So she knew you were Mr. Wahl?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. But she said she didn't know whether or not
18 you had a photo ID on you?
19 A. Correct. And then after somewhat of a
20 discussion, she also mentioned the fact that she
21 might not be able to identify me compared to some
22 of my other family members. There are family
23 resemblances.

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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. But that was after quite a bit of
3 discussion.
4 Q. Have you voted since November of 2014?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And were you identified by poll workers on
7 those occasions?
8 A. I've actually only been actually allowed to
9 vote one time since then.
10 Q. Let's take this in steps.
11 A. Sure.
12 Q. How many times have you been back to the
13 fire department to vote since November of 2014?
14 A. Two.
15 Q. And were those in 2016?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And one of those times, did I understand
18 you right that they positively identified you and
19 you voted?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. What happened the other time?
22 A. They -- basically it was a repeat of the
23 first.

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1 (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit Number 2
4 Q. I would like, Mr. Wahl, to show you a
5 document I've marked as Defendants' Exhibit 2,
6 and I've again marked a page. I'll say for the
7 record that these are discovery responses, an
8 excerpt, actually, of discovery responses for the
9 plaintiffs.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Mr. Wahl, we asked the plaintiffs to tell
12 us if they know of people without a photo ID; and
13 as you saw on this excerpt, you were one of the
14 persons that plaintiffs listed. Let's go through
15 some of this paragraph. It says, "The Alabama
16 NAACP has also assisted or been contacted by
17 several Alabama citizens who lack photo ID.
18 Barnard Simelton, the NAACP president, was
19 contacted by two voters who lacked photo ID,
20 Joshua Wahl and the family of Mr. Willie Mims."
21 So did you contact Bernard Simelton of the NAACP?
22 A. I did.
23 Q. What led you to contact Mr. Simelton?

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1 A. I saw news that this lawsuit was filed in
2 federal district court, and I contacted him to
3 see what the status of the lawsuit was.
4 Q. Tell me about your conversation with him.
5 A. It's been several years ago.
6 Q. I understand. If you don't remember any
7 details, you don't remember any details.
8 A. I don't remember much. He just said he
9 could pass me along to somebody who would have
10 more information on it, basically is the gist of
11 it.
12 Q. Did he pass you along to someone else?
13 A. He did.
14 Q. Who did he pass you to?
15 A. I believe I talked to you first, didn't I?
16 (Witness indicating.)
17 Q. Were you asking Mr. Ross?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Did you speak to Mr. Ross?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Tell me about your conversation -- well,
22 first off, does Mr. Ross represent you?
23 A. No.

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1 Q. You're represented today by Mr. Blackshear,
2 correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. Tell me about your conversation with Mr.
5 Ross.
6 MS. MERLE: Objection. I think we're still
7 going to say that those conversations at those
8 times would be privileged.
9 MR. DAVIS: Attorney-client privileged?
10 MS. MERLE: Yes.
11 MR. DAVIS: Does the Legal Defense Fund
12 represent Joshua Wahl?
13 MS. MERLE: Not currently.
14 MR. DAVIS: Did you at that time?
15 MS. MERLE: We were in discussions with him
16 about what occurred to him, and there were
17 discussions and it could have been -- it could
18 have led to that, yes.
19 MR. DAVIS: I understand, and I respect
20 that. We'll put a pin in that, then, and we'll
21 talk more about that later possibly.
22 Q. So you did speak to Mr. Ross?
23 A. Yes.

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1 Q. Did you speak to anyone else about this
2 lawsuit?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Who did you speak to?
5 A. Liliana Veragosa and -- did I pronounce her
6 name right? I have a hard name to pronounce,
7 too, so that's why I asked.
8 Q. Would you repeat that name, please?
9 A. Liliana.
10 Q. Oh, yes, Liliana. Okay.
11 A. And I also spoke with Andrew. I'm trying
12 to remember. I'm trying to remember.
13 Q. I understand. I understand. Is that all
14 you can remember right now?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Did you have any other conversations with
17 anyone of a local chapter of the NAACP?
18 A. No, I don't believe I did.
19 Q. Have you had any conversations with anyone
20 with Greater Birmingham Ministries, to your
21 knowledge, about the lawsuit?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Did you have any conversations with anyone

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1 in the Secretary of State's office about the
2 litigation or about the photo ID law in general?
3 A. I have talked to people at the Secretary of
4 State's office.
5 Q. You have?
6 A. I have talked to people, yes.
7 Q. Who, do you know?
8 A. No, I'm sorry, I don't know.
9 Q. That's okay. Tell me about those
10 conversations with anyone in the Secretary of
11 State's office.
12 A. Well, I've just discussed the nature of
13 the -- I discussed the nature of the affidavit,
14 and if that could possibly be changed, things
15 like that.
16 Q. What kind of response did you get?
17 A. Really, I got the impression it was pretty
18 firmly entrenched in the law, and it wasn't
19 something that was subjective.
20 Q. Do you recall what this person said with
21 the Secretary of State?
22 A. No, not really.
23 Q. Do you recall if the person you spoke to

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1 was male or female?
2 A. I would say male. It's been awhile.
3 Q. I understand. I understand perfectly.
4 Does the name Ed Packard ring a bell?
5 A. Yes, Ed Packard definitely rings a bell,
6 but it's because I've had other -- I did deal
7 with the Secretary of State on other matters, so
8 I definitely know Mr. Packard. I want to say it
9 probably was not him I talked to, but I know he
10 was head of elections for quite a while, maybe
11 still is. You know, it's difficult for me,
12 because I've talked to people at the SOS's office
13 for other reasons.
14 Q. That's fair enough. So you spoke with
15 someone at the Secretary of State's office about
16 the positively identification affidavit?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. It may have been Mr. Packard, it may not
19 have been?
20 A. Right. I want to say it wasn't, but --
21 Q. That's fine. Tell me what other dealings
22 you've had with Mr. Packard. What kind of
23 circumstances have led you to be in touch with

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1 the Secretary of State's office?
2 A. Well, I'm involved in politics, so, you
3 know, from time to time there's questions that
4 need to be asked of the Secretary of State.
5 Plus, I'm sure you know, it's possible to obtain
6 voter information from the Secretary of State
7 that is used in the election process, so some of
8 the things have been dealing with that.
9 Q. Tell me about your involvement in politics.
10 Have you been a candidate for office?
11 A. I have not.
12 Q. Have you been working with other people who
13 were candidates for office?
14 A. Sure.
15 Q. Like who?
16 A. It's really too numerous. I've worked in
17 presidential campaigns, I've worked in county
18 commissioner campaigns. I've worked in all of
19 those.
20 Q. So would it be fair to say that you have
21 been active in your support of various candidates
22 for office?
23 A. That would be fair.

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1 Q. And it sounds like you've contacted the
2 Secretary of State's office seeking voter
3 information?
4 A. Sure.
5 Q. What kind of voter information?
6 A. Just they routinely offer for sale the
7 names, addresses, phone numbers, and elections
8 people voted in, all the information that you
9 would use to set up a campaign.
10 Q. Tell me some of the candidates that you
11 have supported.
12 A. Is that relevant, can I ask that?
13 Q. Yes. I would like to know -- I believe it
14 to be. I'm not going to ask who you voted for.
15 I want to understand more of your involvement in
16 politics.
17 A. Sure. Sure.
18 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Would you allow me to ask
19 him a -- what would you call it -- a voir dire
20 type of question?
21 MR. DAVIS: Of course.
22 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Mr. Wahl, since you've
23 been listed as a witness by the plaintiffs in

Page 28
1 this case, have you experienced any animosity
2 from friends or neighbors in Athens?
3 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, I don't mind
4 them knowing who I -- if you think it's relevant,
5 I don't mind them knowing who I've worked for.
6 A. Would you prefer people that you will know
7 or people you wouldn't know?
8 Q. It doesn't matter. However you're
9 comfortable, Mr. Wahl. I want to make sure that
10 your attorney, though, was finished with anything
11 he wants to do at this time.
12 MR. BLACKSHEAR: What I want to know,
13 though, is are you concerned that because you
14 have been unpopular with some people because of
15 your involvement in this lawsuit, by naming
16 others that you have supported in the political
17 arena might cause them also to be subject to
18 animosity or unpopularity?
19 THE WITNESS: That does possibly concern
20 me, yes, but I can stay away from the local
21 offices and avoid that if he doesn't need a
22 complete list.
23 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Okay. Go ahead.

Page 29
1 Q. Let me ask this. Don't tell me the name of
2 candidates. Tell me the name of local offices
3 that you've been involved in to support.
4 A. Local?
5 Q. Local. Are we talking school board, mayor,
6 city council?
7 A. City council, county commission, chairman
8 of the county commission, district attorney,
9 various judges, probate judge, district judges,
10 circuit judges.
11 Q. Give me some examples of the types of
12 things that you would typically do when you were
13 supporting a candidate for office.
14 A. I would do everything from phone banking,
15 to door-to-door, to helping prepare direct mail
16 pieces, to helping prepare for debates, to
17 assisting with radio and television advertising,
18 assisting in the campaign strategy, whatever.
19 Whatever best -- if I'm working for a candidate,
20 I think they are the best person for the job, so
21 whatever they need done.
22 Q. In the course of some of these activities,
23 you've been in touch with the Secretary of

Page 30
1 State's office to seek information to help you
2 support these candidates?
3 A. Correct. I've also probably talked to the
4 Secretary of State's office about different
5 businesses that they -- different business
6 policies that they regulate, such as forming
7 corporations and things like that.
8 Q. Fair enough.
9 A. I really don't remember all the times I've
10 talked to the Secretary of State, but it's been
11 numerous over the years.
12 Q. Okay. I think that tells me what I need to
13 know to understand. Have you had any
14 conversations with the local probate judge about
15 the photo ID law?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Tell me about those.
18 A. Do you want just conversations I personally
19 have had, or ones I know other people have been
20 involved with?
21 Q. Let's start with conversations that you've
22 had personally with the probate judge about the
23 photo ID law.

Page 31
1 A. Well, I asked the probate judge if he would
2 set some time aside to speak with me before the
3 primary election of last year. And so I met with
4 him for probably about an hour, and we discussed
5 possible solutions to the problem that I and I
6 know others were facing. He did acknowledge that
7 he had been contacted by other voters who were
8 concerned about the same thing; and he basically
9 said, in a nutshell, my understanding of the
10 conversation -- it was over an hour long -- was
11 that his hands were pretty much tied, there was
12 nothing he could do. Either unable or unwilling,
13 one of the two, and what's in his heart is only a
14 guess on my part.
15 Q. Remind me, is this the probate judge in, is
16 it Limestone County?
17 A. Yes. Judge Woodruff.
18 Q. Woodruff. Did you have any ideas about a
19 solution?
20 A. Sure.
21 Q. What were your ideas?
22 A. My basic idea was to make sure that I could
23 get in contact with two election officials who

Page 32
1 were able to positively identify me and also
2 comfortable signing an affidavit.
3 Q. What did Judge Woodruff say in response to
4 that?
5 A. Well, we discussed what constitutes an
6 election official. From my understanding of what
7 he said, I think his definition and my definition
8 vary somewhat of what that might be. He was --
9 again, I believe, from what he said, that he may
10 have meant something different; but my
11 understanding of what he said was, he considered
12 the election officials that would be eligible to
13 do that would be the actual officials at the
14 polling place at that time. In other words,
15 himself or someone from his office wouldn't be
16 able to assist in that manner. That's number
17 one. And number two, he didn't feel comfortable
18 telling any polling officials what they could or
19 couldn't do in the discharge of their duties.
20 Those are my point of view from what he said.
21 You know, I feel pretty confident that that's
22 where he was coming from.
23 Q. Is that the only time that you've discussed

Page 33
1 the photo ID law with Judge Woodruff?
2 A. It's the only time that in depth. I see
3 him from time to time, and I've probably
4 discussed it, just brief snippets in passing at
5 other times.
6 Q. Anything different in substance from the
7 first conversation that we've discussed?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did I understand that you said you're aware
10 of other people who have had conversations with
11 Judge Woodruff about the photo ID law?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Tell me who they are.
14 A. Well, Judge Woodruff didn't tell me who
15 they were, and so it would be a guess. I don't
16 know if I know them or not.
17 Q. You're referring to when Judge Woodruff
18 said he heard from other people with concerns?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What did you understand those concerns to
21 be that other people have approached Judge
22 Woodruff about?
23 A. I understood that they were similar to my

Page 34
1 own, people without photo ID who wanted to vote,
2 and wanted to find a solution to that problem.
3 Q. Are you aware that Alabama offers a free
4 photo ID to people who don't have, say, a drivers
5 license or a passport?
6 A. How much money does the State spend
7 advertising that fact? I know it's a rhetorical
8 question. Yes, I am aware of the fact.
9 Q. That's not a solution that helps you,
10 though, is it?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Did you understand that other people have
13 approached Judge Woodruff who said they had a
14 religious objection to having a photograph?
15 A. I don't remember if Judge Woodruff
16 mentioned the reason that they did not have a
17 photograph.
18 Q. I take it you do not have a drivers
19 license, correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Have you spoken to anyone at ALEA about
22 whether it's possible to get a drivers license
23 without a photograph?

Page 35
1 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Spoken with anyone where,
2 L-E-A?
3 Q. ALEA, A-L-E-A.
4 A. It's what used to be Public Safety.
5 Q. Yes, Public Safety or -- let's call it the
6 drivers license agency.
7 A. I have.
8 Q. And what did they say?
9 A. They were not helpful. Although, I do
10 believe that the Alabama law allows for such,
11 because it specifically says that license will
12 have a photo except for temporary license, which
13 now also have photos; but that's what the law
14 says, except for temporary license and other
15 instances, as the director of ALEA, you know,
16 permits, basically. So as far as I can tell
17 legally, it's totally up to the director of ALEA,
18 who I have not spoken with personally, and I'm
19 sure you're aware there's been some changes in
20 that office.
21 Q. Do you recall who you spoke to at ALEA or
22 Public Safety?
23 A. No.

Page 36
1 Q. How long ago was that, would you say?
2 A. I've spoken to both the local office in my
3 hometown, as well as in Montgomery, and it's been
4 over a period of several years. It's something
5 that I'm still pursuing, so yes.
6 Q. Now, you gave an Athens address. Do you
7 live near the community of Athens, or do you live
8 out in the country?
9 A. Out in the country.
10 Q. How do you get around to the grocery, to
11 the post office, that sort of thing?
12 A. The post office comes to me.
13 Q. Fair enough. How do you get to the grocery
14 store, to church, or other places where you need
15 transportation?
16 A. Everyone doesn't own an automobile. I get
17 around the same way that other people who have
18 means of restricted travel do.
19 Q. This is all I mean. Do people typically
20 drive you if you need to go long distances?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm not asking for names, but are they
23 friends, family?

Page 37
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Who would you typically call?
3 A. Both.
4 Q. Is that how you got here today, a friend or
5 family member drove you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And are there members of your family who do
8 have a drivers license?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you have a bank account?
11 A. Personally?
12 Q. Yes, personally.
13 A. No.
14 Q. Do you have family members who have a bank
15 account?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Is the lack of a drivers license a barrier
18 to you getting a drivers license (sic) in your
19 own name?
20 A. Not primarily.
21 Q. What other areas of your life have been
22 inconvenienced because you don't have a photo ID?
23 A. I would say it inconveniences me every day.

Page 38
1 I mean, it obviously inconveniences me in the
2 ability to move about from one place to another;
3 it inconveniences me, as you've hinted at, in
4 certain financial matters. However, I will say
5 that there are many things that there's a general
6 conception that require a photo ID that may not,
7 if you are willing to undergo some inconvenience.
8 In other words, if you talk to the people, you
9 can a lot of times find other solutions that
10 satisfy their requirements.
11 Q. I see. Let's talk about some of those.
12 For example, flying. I don't fly much. I'm
13 accustomed to having to show photo identification
14 when I'm flying. Have you faced that difficulty?
15 A. I haven't tried to board an airplane since
16 the requirement for a photo ID has been in place,
17 but it's not a hard requirement right now, so I
18 don't see that being a big issue. I mean, you
19 may have to go through some additional screening,
20 but it's definitely not a hard barrier at this
21 point. Whether it ever becomes or not, that's
22 for the future.
23 Q. What about going to federal court? And I

Page 39
1 ask that, because the few federal courthouses
2 I've been to have required photo ID.
3 A. Well, there is a requirement in the REAL ID
4 Act for federal buildings. I have not tried to
5 get in a federal courthouse, so I wouldn't be
6 able to speak to that personally. But I have
7 talked to legal representatives that have said
8 that that is not a serious issue either, that
9 there is ways around that as well. And I do, I
10 can speak from personal experience. I have been
11 in other federal buildings that there have been
12 other ways to get in, when necessity arises. But
13 you're right, it's an inconvenience, and that's
14 why -- that's why, you know, it's a deeply held
15 conviction for me, and there's reasons that other
16 people may not have it, and those are all
17 personal to them. But I don't think the fact
18 that it's inconvenient in other areas of life has
19 any bearing on whether it should affect our
20 ability to vote. I mean, I think legally, from
21 my understanding of the law, it shouldn't have
22 any bearing.
23 Q. Mr. Wahl, I want to go back to something we

Page 40
1 talked about earlier. You said you went to the
2 polling place twice in 2016; one time you were
3 able to vote, and one time you were not. Is that
4 correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Which is which?
7 A. I was able to vote in the November
8 election.
9 Q. Do you recall what poll workers identified
10 you on that occasion?
11 A. You would ask that, wouldn't you? Well,
12 Mrs. Bates, she's an inspector, so I know she did
13 sign for me. Also, she's a person I know the
14 most outside of -- you know, I've been voting at
15 the same polling place for 21 years, give or
16 take, you know.
17 Q. Sure.
18 A. We pretty much know each other from that
19 alone, but I know Mrs. Bates quite well from
20 outside that as well, and she is one of the ones
21 who signed for me.
22 Q. Do you recall who the other person was in
23 November of 2016?

Page 41
1 A. No, I couldn't be positive.
2 Q. Mrs. Bates earlier had been uncomfortable
3 signing the affidavit?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And did she discuss what changed her mind?
6 A. Yes. Actually, I do know what changed her
7 mind.
8 Q. What was that?
9 A. How much detail would you like me to go
10 into?
11 Q. I would like as much as you would like to
12 give me.
13 THE WITNESS: How much detail would you
14 like me to go into?
15 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Just answer his questions.
16 A. It started with a conversation with the
17 Secretary of State that I wasn't personally
18 engaged in, but I know other people talked to the
19 Secretary of State. And when I say that, I don't
20 mean his office, I mean Mr. Merrill himself --
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. -- who then had a conversation with Judge
23 Woodruff, and it went from there. And basically,

Page 42
1 after that process, Mrs. Bates came up with a
2 solution she was comfortable with, and that was
3 to cross out portions of the affidavit and
4 execute two affidavits; have me execute one
5 saying I didn't have a photo ID, and her execute
6 one, along with another one of her fellow poll
7 workers, saying that she positively identified
8 me.
9 Q. All right. Then let's break that down.
10 You said it started with a conversation someone
11 had with Secretary of State John Merrill?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. Who was that person who had a conversation
14 with John Merrill?
15 A. I'm not positive, but I suspect it was one
16 of my brothers. But I'm not positive.
17 Q. Okay. But you believe it was someone who
18 you know personally?
19 A. I do.
20 Q. And you think it may have been one of your
21 brothers?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And then you said Secretary Merrill spoke

Page 43
1 to Judge Woodruff, correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Do you know when that conversation took
4 place, either of those conversations?
5 A. It would have been either October or
6 November of 2016. I don't know the exact date.
7 Q. Around four or five months ago?
8 A. Has it been that long?
9 Q. It has.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. We're talking about --
12 A. Fall of 2016, yes.
13 Q. Fall of 2016?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Then presumably Judge Woodruff spoke with
16 Mrs. Bates?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. So there was a solution, correct?
19 A. Yes. The problem is, with solutions, this
20 solution was a multiple election solution, and I
21 don't think it's a small thing that I was not
22 allowed to vote in several elections. I know one
23 vote doesn't necessarily make an election one way

Page 44
1 or another; but it isn't just one vote, because I
2 know there's other people around the state, and
3 around the country, who are in similar situations
4 to me for various different reasons. Some of
5 them may be because, you know, it's difficult for
6 them to obtain photo IDs for other reasons, some
7 of them may be just they don't -- voting would be
8 the only need they would have for one. And let's
9 face it, even -- you know, you've heard the
10 saying there's no such thing as a free lunch?
11 Well, there's no such thing as a free photo ID
12 either. There's a couple of things about that.
13 One is, you're going to have to be at a place
14 where that photo ID is being issued, and you've
15 already gone over some of the problems that
16 someone without a photo ID may have with their
17 transportation. Second is, I personally am
18 uncomfortable with making my fellow taxpayers
19 purchase an ID for me, I mean, really, you know.
20 And I know everybody doesn't hold those same
21 beliefs, but I presume there's other people who
22 wouldn't want someone purchasing a photo ID for
23 them either.

Page 45
1 Q. Do you know any person who believes that?
2 A. As I said, I do.
3 Q. Do you know anyone else?
4 A. I couldn't say for other people.
5 Q. Okay. Do you know other people who do not
6 have a photo ID?
7 A. I do.
8 Q. Who?
9 A. What do you mean by "who"?
10 Q. Their names.
11 A. Well, I know several members of my family.
12 Q. And are those people who don't have a photo
13 ID because of their religious beliefs?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know anyone who lacks a photo ID for
16 some reason other than their religious
17 convictions?
18 A. I've met people, but I don't know them
19 personally.
20 Q. In what context have you met such people?
21 A. You know, just when I've been around, I've
22 been discussing the topic. I do discuss this
23 topic from time to time with different people.

Page 46
1 You know, let me ask you a question relevant to
2 this. I would presume the State knows that
3 there's a certain number of people in this state
4 who don't have photo ID, correct?
5 Q. I'm sorry, I can't answer your question,
6 Mr. Wahl.
7 A. Okay. I'll tell you they do know, because
8 they actually published a number. And the last
9 time I saw a publication -- and I'm not sure it's
10 the most recent one -- I think it was in the
11 neighborhood of 250,000 to 280,000 people. What
12 are all the reasons for those people not having a
13 photo ID? How can we sit here and discuss that?
14 We don't know. I mean, I don't know; you don't
15 know.
16 Q. I want to find out what you do and do not
17 know about this situation today.
18 A. Okay. I know there are a lot of people in
19 the state that don't have a photo ID for various
20 different reasons. What all those reasons are, I
21 do not know.
22 Q. And you know that because you read it in
23 the paper, or what?

Page 47
1 A. I read a quote from, I believe it was
2 someone in the Department of Public Safety, but I
3 couldn't tell you where I read that quote,
4 because I don't know.
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. And, you know, I'm sure there's no firm
7 numbers on it, because all we could really do is
8 compare the people who are of an age where they
9 could obtain the photo ID and then the total
10 population, and take a guess at it, right? But
11 I'm sure those numbers exist. I have read them
12 before, but I couldn't tell you the context of
13 it.
14 Q. And have you personally spoken to someone
15 who you know to lack a photo identification? I'm
16 not talking about people with religious
17 objections, I'm talking about for other reasons.
18 A. I have, but I couldn't tell you the context
19 of that either, because it's -- I didn't discuss
20 it with them, but I don't believe it was for
21 religious reasons.
22 Q. How did it come up? I mean, it doesn't
23 seem to be an ordinary subject.

Page 48
1 A. I ordinarily -- I quite frequently discuss
2 matters I would like to see taken up
3 legislatively, either in Washington or
4 Montgomery, with various different people in
5 numerous different settings. And I believe that
6 would have been the context, is talking about,
7 you know, the possibility of advancing --
8 possibility of advancing legislation. You know
9 what? The possibility of even in the courts,
10 extending our right to privacy, which has been --
11 which has been firmly entrenched in court
12 precedent to cover, you know, to cover
13 photographs. I mean, I think that's something
14 that's really important, and I discuss that with
15 everybody I can.
16 Q. Have you in various conversations asked
17 people if they have a photo ID or not?
18 A. I don't usually ask people that. If they
19 volunteer it, that's fine.
20 Q. And as you sit here today, you're not able
21 to tell me the names of any such persons?
22 A. No.
23 Q. What is the name of the local congregation

Page 49
1 where you worship?
2 A. Good Shepherd.
3 Q. Good Shepherd?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Is it affiliated with any particular
6 denomination?
7 A. It's not.
8 Q. I beg your pardon?
9 A. No.
10 Q. It's a nondenominational Christian church?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And the Good Shepherd Church, is that
13 located in the Athens area?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you know if any of the African-American
16 or Hispanic members of the Good Shepherd
17 congregation share your religious beliefs
18 concerning photo identification?
19 A. I would say yes, but I couldn't be positive
20 about that.
21 Q. You're not sure one way or the other?
22 A. No, I'm not sure one way or the other.
23 Q. Fair enough. Is it okay if we take a break

Page 50
1 for a few minutes? I would like to speak with
2 Ms. Drum, if we can.
3 A. Sure.
4 Q. And then I may have more questions, I may
5 not. And then counsel for the plaintiffs may
6 have additional questions.
7 A. Sure.
8 (Whereupon, at this time a short break
9 was taken.)
10 Q. Are you ready to go back on, Mr. Wahl?
11 A. I'm ready.
12 Q. A few follow-up questions, then I'll let
13 some of these other lawyers have a turn. Your
14 family members who share your religious beliefs,
15 have they been able to vote using the positively
16 identify provision?
17 A. I would say, as far as I'm aware, my family
18 members have had very similar experiences to
19 myself in that regard. Now, I do know other
20 people who have -- but that's because most of my
21 family members vote in the same polling precinct
22 that I do. I am aware of people in other
23 precincts who have had various different levels

Page 51
1 of success in voting.
2 Q. What do you know that's happened in the
3 other precincts?
4 A. Well, so far, as far as I know, it's been
5 easier for them. In other words, as long as they
6 are able to confirm ahead of time that there are
7 going to be two poll workers there who know them,
8 which that is -- that is a matter of public
9 record, that does get published in the paper. It
10 can be obtained from the probate judge. They
11 have had success in being able to vote in that
12 way. But something I would like to say is that
13 the way the law is, it puts a great deal of
14 subjectivity into who is allowed to vote, and the
15 reason for the discrimination could be anything.
16 It could just be a firm conviction in a
17 person's -- the polling official's mind that
18 everyone should have to have a photo ID to vote.
19 It could be based on religion. It could be based
20 on gender. It could be based on race. You know,
21 it could be based on political affiliation. You
22 know, I know I differ in political affiliation
23 from a lot of other people who are on my same

Page 52
1 side in this issue. I know a lot of them -- you
2 know, and that's okay, because one thing I've
3 learned in politics is that a commitment to
4 working with people on issues that you agree is
5 what makes the world go around.
6 Q. Okay, now, wait a minute. You're not
7 suggesting that the photo ID law is only being
8 enforced against black people or white people,
9 are you?
10 A. I'm saying that selective enforcement is
11 required based on the way the law is written.
12 Q. How so?
13 A. Well, you're leaving up who can vote and
14 who can't vote to a person or a couple of people,
15 or up to five people, but really it requires two
16 of them at a local polling location. Now, you
17 tell me. If I just leave whether or not you get
18 to vote up to five people, I mean, don't you
19 think that that has potential for discrimination?
20 Q. I need to find out what you know, Mr. Wahl.
21 A. All right.
22 Q. Do you have any information --
23 A. I know, I know that I've been discriminated

Page 53
1 against, and I know the reason I was
2 discriminated against was because I did not
3 possess a photo ID. I don't know the reason
4 beyond that.
5 Q. Do you know of any poll worker in the state
6 of Alabama who is selectively enforcing it to
7 discriminate against African-Americans?
8 A. To be honest, it's very, very difficult to
9 tell what's in people's hearts and the reason
10 they're not allowing people to vote.
11 Q. Do you know --
12 A. No, I don't.
13 Q. Do you know of any poll workers who are
14 using the photo ID law to not let Hispanic people
15 vote because they're Hispanic?
16 A. You know, I couldn't positively say that
17 either. But I will say this, there are a lot of
18 people who look at groups of people and assume
19 their political affiliation is going to be a
20 certain way. Unfortunately, sometimes that's the
21 color of skin. And I can testify personally that
22 there are situations in Alabama where there are
23 people not being allowed to vote. And anytime

Page 54
1 you have an opportunity for a small, select group
2 of individuals to not let someone else vote, and
3 you have a population that looks different in
4 certain ways from others, that brings opportunity
5 for discrimination. Now, I think it's
6 reprehensible that we look at somebody with a
7 different shade of skin or hair, or whatever,
8 different features, and think they're -- I really
9 am uncomfortable even with the term "race,"
10 because I think we're all human beings. You
11 know, that's basically my religion. I think God
12 created us all equal. But it happens whether or
13 not any of us like it.
14 Q. Now, you've said that you believe the photo
15 ID law, and I take it you mean the positively
16 identify provision, provides an opportunity for
17 discrimination. Is that fair?
18 A. The entire law provides the opportunity for
19 discrimination. The positively identify, I
20 understand, was put in there to try to make the
21 law least restrictive; however, choosing that
22 method as being least restrictive still leaves a
23 great deal of opportunity for discrimination.

Page 55
1 Does that make sense? Did I answer that
2 question?
3 Q. I think I understand your position, but are
4 you aware of any instances where it has been used
5 to discriminate on the basis of race, where it
6 has in fact been used to discriminate on the
7 basis of race?
9 A. All I can say is my personal experiences.
10 Since I'm not African-American and I'm not
11 Hispanic, I can't say that.
12 Q. You said you may not share certain
13 political views with other people who feel the
14 same way as you do about this law.
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. Would you describe your political beliefs
17 as being more on the conservative end of the
18 spectrum or the liberal end of the spectrum?
19 A. Definitely conservative, but I might see
20 that as a more classical view of conservatism.
21 Q. In either 2014 or 2016, on the occasions
22 where the poll workers did not positively
23 identify you, what did you do? Let's start with

Page 56
1 2014. When they said, "We can't sign this
2 affidavit," what did you do then on that day?
3 A. Well, we had a discussion about whether the
4 affidavit actually meant that they had to --
5 would be required to do something like a strip
6 search in order to be able to sign it. And quite
7 obviously, my position is that that wasn't the
8 intent of the law or the affidavit. They felt
9 differently. On the other hand -- can I say what
10 I get a sense of? I got a sense that it was just
11 an excuse, because they wanted to enforce the law
12 to the letter of the law, no matter what, and
13 that would be the sense that I got from them.
14 However, the words that they actually spoke were,
15 you know, objection to be able to sign it. It
16 actually ensued where because the conversation
17 was sort of holding up the line, as you might
18 imagine, we mutually agreed to step outside the
19 polling place and continue the discussion to see
20 if we could come to some agreement that would
21 allow us -- myself, and there were at least some
22 of my family members there at the time -- to be
23 able to vote. And at that point, Mrs. Bates, I

Page 57
1 believe it was Mrs. Bates, volunteered to let us
2 use her cell phone to call Judge Woodruff. So
3 actually, I had a conversation with Judge
4 Woodruff that day, basically to see if we could
5 work something out. I found out later they
6 actually called somebody from the Sheriff's
7 Department to come out, but the conversation was
8 never heated. I mean, it might have been a
9 little heated, but it wasn't threatening in any
10 way. You know, I can tell you personally that it
11 is a great deal -- I have no appreciation for
12 discrimination of other people, whether it's
13 based on -- anything, any difference they may
14 have with the person who is dishing out the
15 persecution, you know, the discrimination.
16 But -- but, you know -- so really we tried to
17 come to an agreement. We tried to work through
18 channels. We tried to work within the law. And
19 that's my testimony, is that the abridges in the
20 law are really just -- are not working to allow
21 all the people qualified to vote, to vote; and
22 the fact that I was able to vote later is based
23 on a great deal of inconvenience and thought.

Page 58
1 You know, Secretary Merrill is a busy man, and
2 just to have to go and get him involved and track
3 him down with his busy schedule, you know, it's a
4 big rigamarole. I will say -- and I hope this
5 doesn't hurt you all, because Secretary of State
6 Merrill was really great in trying to solve the
7 problem, but relying on one person is not a
8 solution. There will be other Secretary of
9 States, it's constitutionally determined in
10 Alabama, so even if we could say that we know
11 Secretary Merrill -- that every voter would be
12 able to contact Secretary Merrill and that he
13 would be willing to help everyone out, he's not
14 going to be in office forever, so the law needs
15 to treat everyone fairly, in my opinion.
16 Q. Now, do you have any reason to believe or
17 any evidence that Mrs. Bates or Ms. Aderholt, or
18 any other poll worker at your polling place,
19 discriminates against people on the basis of
20 race?
22 A. I'll be honest with you. I don't know how
23 many minorities actually vote at my polling

Page 59
1 precinct, probably not very many. It's a rural
2 precinct, and it's probably a very low
3 population. But I think the larger issue is
4 whether the photo ID requirement itself is
5 discriminatory, and that's the question that I
6 think you should be asking me.
7 Q. Well, I get to pick which questions I ask
8 you. My question is, do you have any evidence
9 that any poll workers discriminate on the basis
10 of race?
11 A. I have no idea.
12 Q. Do you have any evidence that they're
13 discriminating on the basis of someone's
14 language, the language that they speak?
15 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Are you talking about
16 Bates and Aderholt?
17 MR. DAVIS: Any poll worker. We can start
18 with Bates and Aderholt.
19 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Would you rephrase the
20 question, please?
21 MR. DAVIS: Yes.
22 Q. Do you have any evidence that Ms. Bates or
23 Ms. Aderholt discriminate on the basis of the

Page 60
1 language that someone speaks?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Do you have any basis to believe that any
4 other poll worker discriminates against people on
5 the basis of the language they speak?
6 A. Sure.
7 Q. What evidence is that?
8 A. I know people who have gone in to vote in a
9 primary election, and they've asked them which
10 type of ballot they would like to take; and based
11 on their physical appearance -- in other words,
12 what we would normally call race -- they say,
13 "Oh, no, you don't want that ballot, you'd rather
14 have this one." That happened in Jackson County.
15 And it's totally hearsay; but you asked if I had
16 any basis, and I do have basis to believe that
17 poll workers do treat people differently based on
18 their skin color and appearance.
19 Q. Do you know if Ms. Bates or Ms. Aderholt,
20 or any other poll worker at the Pleasant Grove
21 Fire Department, treated you differently than
22 anyone else who came without a photo ID?
23 A. No, I have no idea about that.

Page 61
1 Q. Do you know if, in fact, anyone other than
2 you and your family members showed up at that
3 polling place without a photo ID?
4 A. At my precinct?
5 Q. Right.
6 A. No, I'm not sure. I don't remember that
7 ever coming up in conversation.
8 Q. You're not suggesting, are you, that
9 Ms. Aderholt and Mrs. Bates said, "Oh, we're
10 going to gladly identify this person over here
11 without a photo ID, but we're not going to
12 recognize you, Mr. Wahl"?
13 A. You know, what exactly motivated them to
14 act as ugly as they acted, I will never know. I
15 have some theories that could be based on
16 political affiliation or religious; but, you
17 know, the only reason I would say it wasn't
18 because of the color of my skin is because I
19 share the same color of skin with Ms. Bates. But
20 that doesn't necessarily mean anything either,
21 does it?
22 Q. You and Ms. Bates are both white?
23 A. That's right, although I don't prefer the

Page 62
1 term "white," and I'll tell you why. Can I do a
2 little demonstration?
3 Q. Okay.
4 A. See this paper, it's white, right? See?
5 And I'm sorry to say that. I'm sorry to say
6 that; but really, really, it is a big deal to me.
7 It's a big deal to me as far as how we view one
8 another.
9 Q. Let's get back to the questions. Do you
10 claim that you were singled-out for any kind of
11 special treatment, negative treatment, among the
12 people who showed up without a photo ID?
14 A. To be honest, I really -- I know we keep
15 going back to this question, but my answer is
16 really the same. I have no idea what their
17 motivation is. And it would be pure speculation
18 if I said.
19 Q. Do you own a car?
20 A. I own part of a car.
21 Q. Do you ever drive yourself?
22 A. I have in my past life, on occasion.
23 Q. How long ago? Is that recently or a long

Page 63
1 time ago?
2 MR. BLACKSHEAR: What's the relevance?
3 MR. DAVIS: Exploring these issues.
4 MR. BLACKSHEAR: You know, if you can't say
5 what the relevance is --
6 A. Can we just say I know how to operate a
7 motor vehicle, and I have passed examinations to
8 prove that in the past.
9 Q. You said, if I understood you correctly
10 early on, when I asked if you had any photo IDs,
11 I thought you said "not the type that would
12 satisfy the law"?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Do you, in fact, have any identification
15 with your picture on it?
16 A. Well, I answered the question that way
17 because I'm not a hundred percent sure. I don't
18 have any government-issued photo IDs.
19 Q. Do you know if you have any identification
20 card that does have your picture on it?
21 A. No, I don't know.
22 Q. You do not know one way or the other?
23 A. Right. And that sounds funny, but I don't

Page 64
1 know.
2 Q. I don't understand. Have you had photo IDs
3 in the past?
4 A. In what form?
5 Q. Any form.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. How long ago was that?
8 A. I'm going to be guessing here. Ten years,
9 maybe longer.
10 Q. The religious beliefs that you say today
11 lead you not to get a photo ID, is that something
12 that you've come to believe within the last ten
13 years?
14 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Object to the form.
15 A. To an extent, yes.
16 Q. When you had photo IDs ten years ago or
17 more, however long it was, what type of IDs were
18 they?
19 A. I had an Alabama learner's permit.
20 Q. Any others that you can recall?
21 A. I may have had some store cards.
22 Q. When you spoke with someone at the
23 Secretary of State's office about possible

Page 65
1 changes to the affidavit we've been discussing,
2 did you recommend or request any specific
3 changes?
4 A. No. Just that would be easier for my poll
5 workers to --
6 Q. You said it needs to be changed in some
7 way. You didn't say, "It needs to be changed in
8 this specific way that I'm going to suggest to
9 you"?
10 A. I believe I described the situation I
11 personally was having.
12 MR. DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Wahl. Those are
13 all the questions I've got for right now.
14
15 EXAMINATION BY MS. DRUM:
16 Q. Mr. Wahl, my name is Starr Drum. We met a
17 little earlier. I represent the governor's
18 office in this case.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. I've got a few follow-up questions. What's
21 your date of birth?
22 A. June 30, 1977.
23 Q. And you said you have been voting since

Page 66
1 1996; is that right?
2 A. I believe that's correct. It's in that
3 range.
4 Q. Well, when you registered to vote, anyways?
5 A. Correct. Well, yes, I believe it was '96
6 when I registered to vote. I can find that out,
7 if you would like to know. But that's around the
8 time period.
9 Q. At the time you registered, did you have a
10 photo ID?
11 A. No.
12 Q. And have you ever used a photo ID at any
13 point when you voted?
14 A. No.
15 Q. How far is where you live from your polling
16 place?
17 A. Roughly four miles.
18 Q. And how do you get to the polling place
19 when you go to vote?
20 A. I've gotten there several different ways,
21 but I have ridden with other people going to
22 vote. It's within range of an easy bicycle ride,
23 even walking.

Page 67
1 Q. Is your mail order business in the same
2 place as your residence?
3 A. Close.
4 Q. How close?
5 A. 800 feet, maybe.
6 Q. So do you walk to work most days?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Do you ever do anything other than walk to
9 work?
10 A. It's on the same piece of property. I do
11 use vehicles, usually an off-road type of
12 vehicle, if you know what a UTV is.
13 Q. I know what an ATV is. What's a UTV?
14 A. They're also known as side-by-side. It's a
15 little larger than a four-wheeler, and they
16 usually have a bed in the back.
17 Q. Is there a licensing requirement to drive a
18 UTV?
19 A. No, not unless it's for driving on the
20 road.
21 Q. I'm sorry if I missed this. What is
22 Ms. Aderholt's first name?
23 A. You know, I was trying to remember that,

Page 68
1 too. And I apologize, I'm not that great with
2 names. I can't bring it up right now. I know
3 it, but I can't bring it up right now. I'm
4 sorry.
5 Q. Okay, that's fine. Jim discussed a little
6 while ago sort of what happened after you tried
7 to vote in 2014, and you mentioned that you
8 called Judge Woodruff. What happened after that?
9 A. The original time that we weren't allowed
10 to vote?
11 Q. In 2014, I believe you said it was in the
12 primary in 2014 -- no, the general election 2014.
13 A. Well, basically, after we came to an
14 impasse, where it became clear, you know, I
15 wasn't going to be allowed to vote, I left the
16 polling place.
17 Q. So you just went home after that?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. What about in the 2016 primary, what
20 happened after they said they weren't going to
21 sign the affidavit?
22 A. It wasn't near as long a procedure. I just
23 pretty much asked them if they could do it this

Page 69
1 time, because a lot of ground had already been
2 covered. I reiterated I didn't have a photo ID
3 on me, and they didn't feel comfortable with
4 that. I may have even volunteered to turn my
5 pockets inside out. Really, trying to work with
6 the concerns that the poll workers had. When it
7 became clear that wasn't going to work, same
8 thing.
9 Q. You just went home?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you ever ask for a provisional ballot
12 or some other --
13 A. They actually offered a provisional ballot.
14 The thing with a provisional ballot is there's no
15 provision to vote any other way than with a photo
16 ID, with a provisional ballot. So you've got to
17 produce a photo ID within five days to vote
18 provisional ballot. So someone who doesn't have
19 one and hasn't obtained one for various other
20 reasons, whether it's inconvenience or schedule
21 or whatever, it's very unlikely that you'll
22 obtain one in those five days. There is one
23 thing -- and provisional ballots are up in our

Page 70
1 area, in Limestone County. I don't know about
2 statewide, I haven't looked at it. But
3 provisional voting is way up in Limestone County,
4 I believe, from the few previous elections,
5 before the law went into effect anyway. But the
6 only person that's going to benefit, really, is
7 somebody who left their photo ID at home and has
8 one. You know, there is a possibility someone
9 can obtain a photo ID in those five days; but
10 let's face it, if you haven't already obtained a
11 photo ID, there's probably a reason behind it.
12 Q. But they did offer you that both times, in
13 2014 and again in 2016, and you just declined?
14 A. Yes. I can't remember in 2016, but
15 definitely 2014. I have other reasons for not
16 wanting to vote a provisional ballot, too. You
17 know, you have political people who you consider
18 your friends; and if you wanted to, you would
19 consider not your friends. It's kind of been a
20 difficult situation. I mean, it really has been
21 a situation of discrimination all around. And
22 the husband of one of the poll workers -- not one
23 of the poll workers -- one of the Board of

Page 71
1 Registrars, the people on the Board of Registrars
2 who are the ones who oversee the provisional
3 ballots, was actually unseated for a position by
4 somebody I know closely, and so it was a little
5 bit of a sticky situation there too, for me. So
6 there's a lot of things, because myself, my
7 family, and people I know are so closely involved
8 in the legal process, it's an opportunity for a
9 great deal of blow-back, if you will.
10 Q. Are you saying there's blow-back from --
11 who are you saying there's blow-back from?
12 A. Well, let me just give you an example. I
13 know someone who is running for election for the
14 county commission, and I know somebody who got
15 his opponent in the primary this spring to sit as
16 a poll watcher at our place just so he could come
17 in and monitor the situation with us not being
18 able to vote. Does that help answer your
19 question?
20 Q. So you're saying that because of your
21 situation with the photo ID, you believe that
22 someone was called to monitor your polling place?

Page 72
1 A. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm sorry.
2 MS. MERLE: That's fine.
3 A. Absolutely.
4 Q. And do you have anything other than your
5 own belief for why that is the case? I mean, do
6 you have any evidence that that is the reason
7 that someone was sent there? Did someone say
8 something to you?
9 A. Only the chain of events.
10 Q. Can you say what those are?
11 A. Sure. A person who was set up as a poll
12 worker, poll watcher -- I'm sorry, not poll
13 worker, poll watcher, there's a difference -- was
14 a former head of the Republican -- chairman of
15 the Republican Party in Limestone County, who is
16 somebody I know really closely, and I am positive
17 that he has a personal vendetta and would like to
18 cause myself and other people I know harm. Now,
19 as to whether or not he gets someone unelected
20 from -- who holds a public office, or whether he
21 makes it so I can't vote without a photo ID, it's
22 all those things.
23 Q. But again, you just described what your

Page 73
1 personal belief is, if I understand you, but --
2 A. Uh-huh.
3 Q. -- was there anything that he said?
4 MR. BLACKSHEAR: No, the question was the
5 chain of events. That's what he's responding to.
6 MS. DRUM: Okay, I'm sorry.
7 Q. I was asking for facts, though, and that
8 wasn't the chain of events either, if you want to
9 go through the chain of events.
10 A. We have never -- this person doesn't live
11 in my precinct. He's never been a poll watcher
12 there the 15 years before. He has no reason to
13 be a poll watcher in my particular precinct, and
14 he has publicly worked against other candidates
15 that I've supported. He has publicly ridiculed
16 myself and my family; he has sent letters to the
17 editor in the local newspaper. You know, can I
18 tell what's in somebody's heart? I've repeatedly
19 said I can't; but I'm about as sure, without
20 being able to do that, as I could be.
21 Q. Did this individual who was the poll
22 watcher do anything when you had gone to try to
23 vote?

Page 74
1 A. That's actually the election that I
2 skipped.
3 Q. What election was that?
4 A. That would have been the primary election
5 of 2016.
6 Q. You skipped it, but -- forgive me if I
7 misunderstood. I thought you said earlier you
8 tried to vote in that election?
9 A. No. That would be the runoff election.
10 Q. Okay. So there was a runoff election --
11 A. There was.
12 Q. -- that you skipped?
13 A. No. I skipped a primary and tried to vote
14 in the runoff.
15 Q. And the poll watcher that you were just
16 discussing went to the actual primary, not the
17 runoff?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And you did not vote in that election?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Did you hear from others that that poll
22 watcher was there?
23 A. Yes. Actually, yes.

Page 75
1 Q. What was your reason for not voting in that
2 election?
3 A. Intimidation.
4 Q. Can you elaborate?
5 A. I think I just have.
6 Q. You said the word "intimidation."
7 A. Yes, by that particular individual. Look,
8 when you spend a great deal of your life trying
9 to get people that you think will run government
10 in a wise manner into office, you certainly don't
11 want to do them harm by your actions. So I felt
12 like it would do people I know more harm to
13 attempt to vote in that election than it would
14 for me to actually vote. Is that fair?
15 Q. That's a little bit different than
16 intimidation, if you're not --
17 A. No, that's the same thing as intimidation.
18 We may disagree on that, but anything that
19 prevents you from going because you feel like
20 it's going to harm yourself or someone else that
21 you know, wouldn't you phrase that as
22 intimidation? Otherwise, how would you define
23 intimidation?

Page 76
1 Q. Well, I'm not here to offer testimony, just
2 like Jim isn't here to offer testimony.
3 A. I understand that. But if you're saying
4 it's not intimidation, then please offer your
5 definition of intimidation so I can --
6 Q. I'm going to try to ask a different
7 question so that we can --
8 A. Sure. And I don't mean to be belligerent;
9 but, you know, I really can't think of a
10 better --
11 Q. I want you to understand what I'm asking
12 you, and I don't want us to have any confusion --
13 A. Sure. That's great.
14 Q. -- so I'm going to try to rephrase this
15 line of questioning. How did you know that this
16 poll watcher was going to be at your polling
17 place?
18 A. Somebody called me on the phone and told
19 me.
20 Q. Who was that?
21 A. I believe it was my county commissioner,
22 actually.
23 Q. And did the county commissioner --

Page 77
1 A. I'm not positive about that, because I did
2 have some family members who voted that day too,
3 and they told me as well. So I couldn't for sure
4 say who was the first one.
5 Q. But whoever contacted you about it, did
6 they mention that this person did not want you to
7 vote?
8 A. No. Nobody knows what's in somebody else's
9 heart.
10 Q. So the intimidation you felt was based on
11 your belief of why this individual was at your
12 polling place?
14 A. If you want to put it that way, yes, but I
15 would just like to remind you of what I said all
16 before, and that's that that belief is based on
17 as good of evidence as you can have without
18 knowing what's in somebody's heart.
19 Q. You had said that Mrs. Bates had signed
20 your affidavit in the 2016 general election. And
21 you talked about how it was a split affidavit,
22 and you had signed one. Who was the second
23 person who signed the verification affidavit?

Page 78
1 A. You know, I'm not positive about that.
2 There was a bit of confusion, because they were
3 trying to adjust the affidavits, and it was the
4 third time I had attempted to vote that day, just
5 because they had been busy earlier in the day.
6 It was close to closing. As I mentioned, I had
7 already been working for a couple of campaigns.
8 It was the last day of election. There was a lot
9 going on that day, so it was kind of difficult,
10 especially with my transportation. It's tough to
11 get to the polling place once, let alone three
12 times. So by the time we got there, I was just
13 glad to be able to vote. And, you know,
14 actually -- actually, and this may have no
15 bearing, but it was kind of fun anyway. A couple
16 of poll workers said -- they looked really tired,
17 so I said something to them about, "It's been a
18 long day, hasn't it?" Because it's twelve hours,
19 it's a long day. And they said, "Yes." And they
20 said, "It looks like you're the first people" --
21 I was there with -- myself and my family -- "all
22 day who have been happy to be able to vote." And
23 I said, "Yes, actually I am happy to be able to

Page 79
1 vote." But, you know, it was a process, even
2 that day, of being able to come to a time where
3 they were -- a slow enough time at the polling
4 place where we could work out the affidavits and
5 stuff. So yes, I mean --
6 Q. So was that Ms. Aderholt?
7 A. You know, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm
8 not sure. I'm assuming that those affidavits
9 exist somewhere. I don't know.
10 Q. Was it a woman, do you remember that?
11 A. Yes. Yes.
12 Q. Was it someone you had seen before?
13 A. Yes, definitely.
14 Q. But you're not sure --
15 MS. MERLE: Objection, asked and answered.
16 A. Yes, they were all there. There were
17 several people there who I had seen before and
18 know. Which one signed the affidavit, I'm not
19 sure. Because I have voted in the same polling
20 precinct for so many years, I basically, at least
21 from that voter relationship, know occasionally
22 there's a new person, but pretty much I know
23 them, and they know me.

Page 80
1 Q. Jim had mentioned earlier, you sort of went
2 through some situations in which, you know, it
3 arises as an issue that you do not have photo
4 identification. Do you ever have a need to
5 purchase cigarettes, cigars, or alcohol, or
6 anything that requires a photo ID?
7 A. I don't smoke, so I have no need to
8 purchase alcohol -- I mean tobacco, sorry.
9 Alcohol, I have purchased alcohol before.
10 Q. Have you been asked for photo
11 identification in those situations?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Are there any other situations that we
14 didn't go over, where the lack of photo ID has --
15 these are more day-to-day issues, not like a
16 specific isolated incident. But are there
17 day-to-day issues we haven't gone over, where not
18 having a photo ID has been problematic?
19 A. No. I think we've covered most of them.
20 Transportation and financial are pretty much the
21 two that are -- well, there could be on occasion;
22 but no, not isolated incidences, I wouldn't say.
23 No.

Page 81
1 MS. DRUM: That's all the questions I have.
2 Thank you.
4 was taken.)
6 EXAMINATION BY MS. MERLE:
7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Wahl. My name is
8 Natasha Merle. I'm an attorney at the NAACP
9 Legal Defense Fund. I represent plaintiffs in
10 this matter. There's a couple of housekeeping,
11 if you need to take a break, obviously, feel free
12 to let me know, and we can do that. If any of my
13 questions are confusing or you don't understand,
14 just ask me to rephrase, which you have been
15 doing. If you ask me to rephrase, then we'll
16 circle back and I'll try to ask it better. I
17 have a few questions for you. I'm going to try
18 to not cover the same ground too much, but I ask
19 for a little patience. Were you born in Athens?
20 A. I was.
21 Q. And what is your current address? Could
22 you repeat it for me, please?
23 A. 8971 Lentzville, that's

Page 82
1 L-E-N-T-Z-V-I-L-L-E.
2 Q. I would not have gotten that. And how long
3 have you lived at that address?
4 A. Let me see if I can get this right. 36
5 years.
6 Q. So this is the address that you registered
7 with in approximately 1996?
8 A. Correct. Well, at that time it may have
9 had a route address, but it's the same location.
10 Does that work? It was probably Rural Route 6
11 back then.
12 Q. Do you know when the address changed?
13 A. I don't. They also changed the ZIP code at
14 some point.
15 Q. Do you currently live alone?
16 A. No. I live with some of my siblings.
17 Q. How many siblings do you have?
18 A. Seven.
19 Q. How many of them do you live with?
20 A. All of them.
21 Q. So there's eight of you?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. Can we circle back to your religious

Page 83
1 beliefs? I know you said you are Christian.
2 Could you tell me more about your religious
3 beliefs?
4 A. Sure. What would you like to know?
5 Q. How long have you been a part of this
6 faith?
7 A. I was raised Christian, and I would say I
8 took it on personally, at the age of 19 I was
9 baptized. You know, obviously, my understanding
10 of Scripture changes over time, but I've always
11 had a conviction against things that I think
12 would be displeasing to my Father in Heaven.
13 That's basically it in a nutshell.
14 Q. And one of those changes that happened over
15 time was your change in belief regarding the
16 government having your biometrics?
17 A. Well, no, I've always been against
18 biometrics ever since I learned what they were.
19 At one point I thought they were only
20 fingerprints; but as I learned more, you know,
21 about other things that are also biometrics -- in
22 particular, all forms of biometrics really, but
23 particularly when it's used as identification.

Page 84
1 Q. Is it when it's used as identification by
2 the government, or is it by --
3 A. No, everyone.
4 Q. Are there any religious consequences to
5 having government identification for you?
6 A. For me? Yes. I would feel -- I would feel
7 violated to get a government ID in the form that
8 it is now.
9 Q. What do you mean by "violated"?
10 A. I feel like it's going against my
11 convictions.
12 Q. And that is important to you?
13 A. Oh, yes, definitely. At the same time, I
14 want to be clear, I don't judge anybody else for
15 what their decision is, so.
16 Q. And you mentioned earlier, I believe, that
17 you know other people who share this belief with
18 you?
19 A. Sure.
20 Q. And do all seven of your siblings share
21 this belief?
22 A. To some extent, yes.
23 Q. Do all seven believe that it would violate

Page 85
1 their convictions to have a government-issued ID?
2 A. In the current form, yes.
3 Q. Are there other people besides family
4 members that you know of?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Do you know approximately how many?
7 A. In our, say, North Alabama area or
8 nationwide?
9 Q. Let's keep it to Alabama, but anybody that
10 you personally know in Alabama.
11 A. Personally know? I would say between 20
12 and 30. When you sit down and start making a
13 list, you have to leave people out.
14 Q. You did testify earlier that you're aware
15 of other people who do not possess photo ID?
16 A. Oh, yes, correct.
17 Q. And some of these people share your
18 religious belief?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And some of these people do not share your
21 religious belief?
22 A. Yes, people I'm aware of. People that I
23 know personally pretty much share my religious

Page 86
1 belief.
2 Q. Thank you for that distinction. The people
3 that you are personally aware of share your
4 religious belief?
5 A. I have met other people who don't, but I
6 don't even know their names. I've talked to
7 them, so.
8 Q. The people that you do know personally,
9 that you've more than met in passing, people that
10 you're aware of personally, do you know if they
11 had trouble voting at any time in 2014?
12 A. The only ones I'm aware of were the ones
13 that tried to vote at my polling location. Other
14 polling locations, I know there were some issues,
15 but they were allowed to vote, as far as I know.
16 Q. So you knew some people in 2014 at your
17 polling location that had trouble voting?
18 A. They may have all been my family members.
19 I know people who don't even try and vote because
20 they don't have photo ID as well, so that's
21 another thing that is an issue. Some people just
22 assume when you see a requirement everywhere on
23 billboards and newspapers, so on and so forth,

Page 87
1 regular ads, that that means that that's -- very
2 few of those advertisements I've seen mention the
3 fact that you can be positively identified by two
4 poll workers. I did see -- I did see one place
5 where it was mentioned, but most of them don't
6 mention that fact.
7 Q. So these people you said that don't even
8 try to vote, how do you know this? Was it
9 through conversation? How do you know this?
10 A. Right, conversations.
11 Q. And these are people in your community that
12 you're aware of?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Tell me generally what those conversations
15 are.
16 A. Just discussing -- you know, like you sit
17 around discussing with people things that are
18 affecting your life right now. And, you know,
19 I've told a number of people that there are
20 possible other ways to be able to vote, and we
21 need to work our own solution. So, you know,
22 it's kind of in that context.
23 Q. So if somebody told you, "I'm not going to

Page 88
1 vote today because I do not have ID," they're --
2 A. I don't know if they word it exactly like
3 that, but talking about the requirement -- yes,
4 in the context of talking about the requirement
5 of having photo ID to be able to vote.
6 Q. When you were talking about the
7 advertisement for the photo ID, or the photo ID
8 requirement, at your polling precinct, is there a
9 sign that says you can be positively identified,
10 do you remember?
11 A. I would say that I think there is, but it's
12 not in big letters. There's about three feet of
13 small print, like would be probably number 10
14 font, and I believe it mentions it.
15 Q. How did you learn that you could be
16 positively identified?
17 A. Well, obviously because of my situation, I
18 was watching as legislation went past, and I
19 obtained a copy of the law when it went into
20 effect.
21 Q. So you knew before you tried to vote in the
22 2014 primary?
23 A. Yes, ma'am.

Page 89
1 Q. I know you said you do not have a -- you
2 don't believe you have a photo ID. What types of
3 identification do you have? For example, do you
4 have a Social Security card, those types of
5 identification?
6 A. No. I don't have a Social Security number
7 either. Obviously, I'm a member of a medical
8 sharing organization, and I have a card for that.
9 It doesn't have a photo on it, but it has my name
10 and the fact I'm a member. I have forms of
11 identification like that.
12 Q. Do you have a birth certificate?
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Do you have a voter registration card?
15 A. Yes, I do. Actually, I just received a
16 mailing from the Secretary of State a week or so
17 ago.
18 Q. With your voter -- what was in it?
19 A. Well, they changed it since the last time.
20 The new ones don't say "Voter ID card" on them
21 anymore. The previous one I did, did, although
22 it mentioned the photo ID requirement on it. The
23 one before that just said Voter Identification

Page 90
1 Card, and it said, "This whole card must be
2 available for" -- "must be intact for voter
3 identification." And the middle one said Voter
4 Identification on it, but I believe it said every
5 four years, maybe. Maybe it's two. I don't
6 know. And the middle one mentioned -- said Voter
7 Identification on it, but it also mentioned the
8 fact you had to have a photo ID. This last one
9 pretty much dispensed with any wording about
10 being ID'd at all. So I do possess the other
11 ones; although, I think I just got new ones.
12 Q. You talked a little bit about how not
13 having a photo ID is a burden for you, like in
14 your day-to-day life. I wanted to talk about
15 that a little bit more. You own a business, is
16 that correct, a small business? You're a small
17 business owner?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Not having a photo ID, was that problematic
20 in setting up your business?
21 A. No, not really. At the time I set it up,
22 it wasn't, and that's a number of years ago. At
23 one point -- there is another law in Alabama,

Page 91
1 which I think you're all probably aware of. It's
2 the Beason Bill for the immigration, Beason
3 Immigration Bill, and that changed the
4 requirements for getting business licenses. But
5 usually, from personal experience, when you go
6 down to renew a business license, they're going
7 to ask you for photo identification. However, I
8 use my standard birth certificate, and that is
9 also allowed under that law. That, so far, has
10 only been a minor inconvenience. In other words,
11 they still give me a business license.
12 Q. When you said the Beason Bill, are you
13 referring to -- if you remember -- are you
14 referring to House Bill 56?
15 A. That would be it.
16 Q. I believe you testified earlier that not
17 having a photo ID is an inconvenience to you, but
18 you also testified that, you know, it makes
19 things, transportation and financial things
20 difficult. Would you say that it's more than an
21 inconvenience for you?
22 A. What do you mean, more than an
23 inconvenience?

Page 92
1 Q. It seems that you needed -- correct me if
2 I'm wrong. It seems that a photo ID would be
3 useful or necessary in your day-to-day dealings.
4 A. Well, that is the chief argument that I
5 hear people making for why it's not a problem
6 having it for voting, because it's required for
7 day-to-day living. So, you know, it's really not
8 a hardship to have one to be able to vote. I
9 disagree with that, because I have been able to
10 work around it. In other words, my life -- you
11 know, there are other -- and that's why I would
12 say it's an inconvenience. Yes, there are
13 certain things that certain branches of
14 government or institutions have told me I
15 couldn't do without a photo ID. But all of
16 those, I would have to work -- I tend to work
17 with them to develop a solution.
18 Q. And with different forms of government, you
19 work through these solutions to find a solution
20 because of your religious convictions?
21 A. Right. And because I believe that all
22 Americans should be -- there is another thing,
23 there's another facet to this. When you walk in

Page 93
1 to a polling place, and they say, "We need to see
2 your face on identification," they're assuming,
3 in a way, that you're going to be committing
4 fraud if you don't show them that. And I think
5 that goes against the whole foundation of what it
6 means to be an American in our system of laws, as
7 far as being innocent until proven guilty, you
8 know. Because I can see having a paper mailed to
9 your address is proof of address, because that
10 way, you do prove. But, you know, as far as
11 saying -- you know, you may have stolen that out
12 of somebody else's mailbox. You know, I really
13 don't see --
14 Q. Do you think there's other ways to prevent
15 voter fraud -- if there is such a thing as voter
16 fraud, do you think there's other ways to prevent
17 voter fraud when people go to the polls?
18 A. Definitely, and I think less restrictive.
19 Q. What are those ways that you think?
20 A. I think having an identification card
21 mailed to the voter's registered address is a
22 great way, because that proves that you're living
23 in the precinct that you're allowed to vote in.

Page 94
1 Or you're using somebody else's address. Let's
2 face it, that's not something that's really --
3 and something else that I will add is that in
4 Alabama, like most states, I would suspect,
5 people who are not citizens of either Alabama or
6 the United States can obtain a drivers license.
7 They have to be able to; because, for instance, I
8 have an aunt who is from Brazil, and she lived in
9 the United States for almost 30 years before she
10 became a citizen. Was she driving with her
11 Brazilian drivers license? No, of course not.
12 Was she eligible to vote during those times? No,
13 of course not. So having a photo ID proves
14 nothing about your eligibility to vote. That's
15 something else that, you know, I think is a lot
16 of times missed in this debate, you know, from my
17 personal experience. My personal experience, I
18 know people who have photo IDs who are not
19 eligible to vote. That's not an isolated
20 incident. That's thousands of people in Alabama,
21 maybe hundreds of thousands. We have executives
22 from Japanese car companies that are permanent
23 residents here. We have people from Africa; we

Page 95
1 have people from Europe who are here working for
2 the summer. And under Alabama law, if they want
3 to be able to drive, if they're here for more
4 than six weeks, right?
5 Q. When you voted before this law, what forms
6 of identification did you use?
7 A. I generally used the voter identification
8 mailed to you.
9 Q. And you think that was sufficient to prove
10 that you were who you said you were?
11 A. Right, definitely. Because for someone
12 else to obtain that, it would require them
13 stealing my mail in one way or another.
14 Q. Are all your siblings registered to vote,
15 do you know?
16 A. No, they're not all registered to vote. I
17 was thinking about that for a minute, but no.
18 Q. The ones that are registered to vote, do
19 they vote at your same polling precinct?
20 A. Yes. Well, I said I lived with all of mine
21 earlier, but I made a mistake on that. Actually,
22 one of them moved out this past year. One moved
23 out of state, but the ones that are registered in

Page 96
1 Alabama would be registered at my polling
2 location.
3 Q. Do you vote in elections besides the
4 presidential elections?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So you vote for like governors,
7 legislators?
8 A. Absolutely.
9 Q. Local elections?
10 A. Absolutely.
11 Q. Do you know if your siblings -- well, the
12 ones that are --
13 A. Are registered to vote.
14 Q. -- are registered --
15 A. As far as I know, yes.
16 Q. They vote regularly?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. I know you said in 2014, your siblings were
19 with you. Do you usually go to vote as a family?
20 A. Sometimes. It depends on our schedule that
21 day.
22 Q. I believe I asked you this, I'm sorry.
23 When, approximately, did you learn about the law

Page 97
1 that would require you to have a photo ID to
2 vote?
3 A. I believe that law was passed in the 2010
4 legislative session. Is that right? 2011,
5 maybe?
6 Q. Well, whatever you remember.
7 A. I was aware of it before it became law.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of it?
9 A. Certainly, that was a high profile law, so
10 I generally try -- obviously, there are lots of
11 bills introduced every year, but the ones that
12 are actually being worked on, I try to keep an
13 eye on anyway. So to tell you exactly how I
14 heard about it, I couldn't. Let's just say I'm
15 aware of a lot of legislation that is being
16 worked on in Montgomery.
17 Q. And I believe you testified that you've
18 read the law?
19 A. Yes, I have. I couldn't quote it because
20 it's been awhile, but I have read it.
21 Q. I will not ask you to quote it. But from
22 your understanding from reading the law, you do
23 not have any of the required forms of

Page 98
1 identification as required by the law?
2 A. Oh, right, definitely.
3 Q. And I believe also you testified earlier
4 about the selective enforcement of the law and
5 that the law is subjective?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. I know you said the positively identify
8 portion is subjective; but also, am I correct,
9 you said the entire law allows for selective
10 enforcement?
11 A. Well, yes, because anybody who doesn't have
12 a photo ID is obviously selected for another
13 process. And I realize that that same argument
14 could be made for any form of identification; but
15 a photo ID is much more because, as I said
16 earlier, I don't think there's any argument that
17 there are people who don't have photo
18 identification. And so that means that in order
19 for people who don't to be able to vote, the very
20 fact of having a photo ID requirement selects a
21 subset of the population. And once that
22 selection is done, then there is another
23 opportunity for them to be able to vote by this

Page 99
1 positively identified by two poll workers. But
2 that is very subjective because it rests on so
3 few individuals to be able to make that call
4 there.
5 Q. And the individuals that it rests on are
6 the --
7 A. Poll workers.
8 Q. The poll workers, okay.
9 A. Right. Election officials, I think, is the
10 term it uses; and like I said, I don't think
11 that's been settled, what an election official
12 constitutes. I mean, I would be really
13 interested to see, say, an AG. Are you with the
14 AG's office?
15 MR. DAVIS: I can't answer your questions,
16 Mr. Wahl.
17 MR. BLACKSHEAR: Yes, he is.
18 THE WITNESS: I figured he could answer
19 that question, whether he was with them or not.
20 A. But I would be really interested to see
21 what constitutes an election official, because I
22 think that has great bearing on this case.
23 Q. So is it your understanding of reading the

Page 100
1 law, for the people who do not have ID, that they
2 need to be positively identified or they're not
3 allowed to vote?
4 A. That is correct. That's one of the
5 requirements. As I mentioned earlier, there's
6 also a requirement that they don't have a photo
7 ID on their person in order to meet the
8 positively identify requirement to begin with,
9 which doesn't seem like a big deal, but it is --
10 you know, as a matter of fact, it is there.
11 Q. I guess more specifically, it is required
12 for you to vote, that you must be positively
13 identified every time you vote? That's a
14 requirement for you, it is not an option?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. I want to go back through your attempting
17 to vote after the photo ID law was passed. You
18 testified about it earlier, but I wanted to just
19 clarify the record in some regard. In the 2014
20 primary, were you asked to present a photo ID?
22 Q. And in the 2014 primary, was it Mrs. Bates,
23 and what was the other woman's name?

Page 101
1 A. Aderholt. You know, to be honest, that's
2 part of the problem I have is which poll
3 worker -- they do change a little. I recognize
4 the faces, but some of them are not there in each
5 election cycle, so that's kind of the problem I
6 have, is telling you who was there at each one.
7 The reason I know Mrs. Bates so well is because I
8 knew her from other reasons besides her being a
9 polling official, plus she's an inspector at the
10 polling location, so if she was missing,
11 obviously, that's a little different than if one
12 of the workers was not in that particular
13 election. I don't know if you know the
14 difference, but the inspector is actually the
15 person in charge; and any questions or problems,
16 generally they're going to be dealt with by the
17 inspector. They're responsible at the end of the
18 day.
19 Q. So as far as you know, Mrs. Bates is always
20 at the polling precinct, and then this other poll
21 worker was there --
22 A. Well, recently she has been, since the law
23 has been in place.

Page 102
1 Q. So in the 2014 primary, you were asked to
2 present a photo ID; and, obviously, you told them
3 that you do not have that photo ID?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then what happened?
6 A. They said, "Oh, that's going to" -- to the
7 best of my memory -- once again, this is almost
8 two-and-a-half years ago, I should say. They
9 said, "Oh, that's going to be a problem," more or
10 less. Then, you know, I pointed out to them that
11 there was another way for me to vote, and then
12 they said, "Oh, I think we do have some of those
13 affidavits," and they dug one out. There was
14 another poll worker there, and I don't remember
15 which one of them it was that was really helpful
16 and said, "Yes, of course, we can sign for him,
17 that won't be a problem." So kind of, just a
18 point real quick, there it was like, "Yes, yes,
19 we can do it," without them having a chance to
20 meditate on it or anything like that.
21 (Whereupon, Plaintiffs' Exhibit Number 1

Page 103
1 Q. I want to hand you Plaintiffs' Exhibit 1.
2 I'm going to identify it with Bates number
3 DEF00017313, and on the top it says Election
4 Officials' Affidavit for Identifying Qualified
5 Elector. In 2014, when you went and you said,
6 "There's another way for you to vote," and they
7 said, "Oh, we do have some of those affidavits
8 laying around," do you remember, is this the
9 affidavit that you saw?
10 A. To the best of my memory, yes.
11 Q. So at the 2014 primary, two election
12 officials or poll workers signed this affidavit
13 for you?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. And one of them was Mrs. Bates? Or do you
16 remember who either of those workers were?
17 A. Yes. I couldn't be positive. I'm about
18 98 percent that she was one of them.
19 Q. Okay. We'll come back to this affidavit.
20 How do you know Mrs. Bates outside of voting?
21 A. Well, my family -- some members of my
22 family purchased -- they have cattle, we have
23 cattle. And they purchased a bull from them a

Page 104
1 number of years ago for our family. Plus, I've
2 run into her other places. And I was on jury
3 selection with her husband. So, I mean, I know
4 them. We're not like close friends, but I know
5 her from various interactions we've had over the
6 years.
7 Q. Let's move to the 2014 runoff election.
8 Were you again asked for photo ID when you tried
9 to vote in that election?
10 A. In which one?
11 Q. 2014 runoff.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. So you were again asked for a photo ID?
15 Q. Did you have a photo ID?
16 A. No.
17 Q. So what happened that time when you didn't
18 have your photo ID?
19 A. Pretty much the same as in the actual
20 primary. I would say that the poll workers, and
21 Mrs. Bates in general -- in particular, sorry,
22 were more hostile about having to go through the
23 process of signing the affidavit. They may have

Page 105
1 even said something like, "You really should get
2 a photo ID," you know, some back-and-forth there
3 more in that election than in the first one. But
4 still the process was relatively smooth, and we
5 were able to -- they were able to sign it and
6 allow me to vote.
7 Q. When you say "sign it," you mean sign the
8 affidavit that we were just looking at?
9 A. Yes. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. When you say "hostile," what do you mean?
11 Were they verbally hostile? In what way were
12 they hostile?
13 A. I would just say tone of voice, manner of
14 speech, facial expressions, and the feeling of
15 "You need to fix this." They definitely conveyed
16 "You need to fix this." But, you know, I
17 explained to them in brief, "You don't want
18 to" -- in a polling location, it's not a good
19 time to have a long conversation because there
20 are other voters. You don't want to impede other
21 voters from voting, I don't want to, and I don't
22 think any of the poll workers do either. And so,
23 you know, I briefly explained to them that that

Page 106
1 wasn't something I was comfortable with because
2 of my religious convictions; and, you know, it
3 just kind of went off. I was allowed to vote,
4 basically.
5 Q. So when they said, "You need to fix it,"
6 then you --
7 A. Well, they didn't say necessarily "fix it,"
8 but "You need to get a photo ID," is what I meant
9 by that.
10 Q. When you explained to them about your
11 religious beliefs, did they have any response
12 that you remember?
13 A. Not a whole lot, no.
14 Q. So they vouched for you again, and you were
15 allowed to vote?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. I'm sorry, when I say "vouched for," I mean
18 they positively identified you?
19 A. I know what you meant, yes.
20 Q. And in the 2014 mid-term election, you were
21 not allowed to vote; is that correct?
22 A. Correct, in the November election.
23 Q. Yes, sir, November election. And the

Page 107
1 option of you being positively identified came up
2 again with Mrs. Bates?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And I believe you said earlier she had two
5 reasons for not vouching for you this time; is
6 that correct? Am I right?
7 A. Yes, you are. You are correct. At the
8 beginning of the conversation, it was limited
9 largely to where it says, let's see, "I, ___ and
10 ___ who are both election officials in the above
11 stated county, do hereby swear or affirm that
12 (print elector's name) does not have a valid
13 Alabama photo identification in his/her
14 possession at the polls." Initially the
15 objection was limited to that phrase.
16 Q. So looking at the affidavit, you're
17 referring to the first sentence of the affidavit?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Mrs. Bates' objection was her being
20 uncomfortable with that first sentence?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And then you said after some time, she gave
23 you another reason?

Page 108
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And what was her second reason?
3 A. That was because she might not be able to
4 distinguish myself from other members of my
5 family.
6 Q. And I believe you testified that you felt
7 that she was just giving you an excuse?
8 A. I felt that way; but, you know, like I've
9 said numerous times, I don't know what was in her
10 heart. But that is how I felt, yes.
11 Q. And you said there became a point where you
12 eventually went outside with Mrs. Bates?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. And when you went outside, did you
15 immediately call Judge Woodruff, or what?
16 A. Fairly soon. She volunteered that as
17 basically the next step.
18 Q. And when you called Judge Woodruff, what
19 happened? Did you speak to him or she did?
20 A. Well, she did speak to him, and then one of
21 my siblings spoke to him, I believe. I didn't
22 talk to him that day.
23 Q. I'm sorry. Can I go back for just a

Page 109
1 second, because you said your sibling spoke to
2 him?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. How many siblings were with you that day to
5 vote?
6 A. You know, again, it's been two-and-a-half
7 years ago, so I don't know how many were with me
8 at that time.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. But I would say four, if I had to pick a
11 number; but don't hold me to that, because I
12 don't know.
13 Q. So maybe four, but more than one sibling
14 was with you that day?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were those siblings allowed to vote?
17 A. No.
18 Q. So maybe four of your siblings were also
19 unable to vote that day?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. So going back to your phone call with -- or
22 you said your sibling's phone call with Judge
23 Woodruff, what happened during that phone call,

Page 110
1 as far as you know?
2 A. Well, some of what I know about that phone
3 call comes later when I was talking to Judge
4 Woodruff. And he actually said that he was under
5 the impression we were asking him to order the
6 poll workers to do something they felt
7 uncomfortable with, which actually wasn't the
8 case at all. I don't want to force other people
9 to do things that are against their conscience,
10 particularly when they're, you know, basically
11 providing testimony. But we were also hoping to
12 come up with another solution which could have
13 been if any two of the election officials -- if
14 Mrs. Bates didn't feel comfortable, maybe two of
15 the other ones felt comfortable, or if somebody
16 at Judge Woodruff's office who also might know
17 us -- several of them do know me in particular --
18 would be willing to, you know, execute the
19 affidavit. But in the end, the outcome of the
20 call was Judge Woodruff wasn't able to provide
21 any of those solutions.
22 Q. Did Judge Woodruff say that it was up to
23 the poll workers to decide whether they would

Page 111
1 sign the affidavit, do you know?
2 A. Most definitely, yes. Yes, I believe he
3 conveyed that to me on numerous occasions. And
4 he did not feel comfortable -- which I understand
5 that position. He didn't feel comfortable
6 putting pressure on them; but, you know, I think
7 there are other solutions. We've already gone
8 over some of them. Possibly getting new poll
9 workers, you know, that's a possible solution.
10 Q. I know you testified you can't tell what's
11 in these poll workers' hearts, but did you have a
12 theory for why they were not willing to vouch for
13 you that day?
14 A. I think it's ideological foundation that if
15 there's a law that says you have to have a photo
16 ID, that it should be carried out to a letter.
17 Whether or not -- whether or not she has anything
18 else against me personally, I don't know, or
19 whether it's just she's -- I know she's not -- I
20 know we're not on the best terms now, which I
21 hate that we're not; but I don't know whether
22 that stems only from this situation or whether
23 there's other things involved. I know that we do

Page 112
1 disagree politically, obviously, in matters of
2 religion. One of the things I believe strongly,
3 based on my relationship with God, is the freedom
4 of conscience for others. In other words, I
5 believe that we all have the right and duty to
6 have our own relationship with God; or if you
7 don't want to have a relationship with Him,
8 you're free to do that, too. But the manner in
9 which that is conducted is between you and God,
10 not between me and you. So obviously, that's a
11 disagreement that I have with Mrs. Bates, I would
12 say, because of her actions. But I know we have
13 political disagreements, too, based on signs that
14 she has put up in her yard for candidates running
15 against candidates I was supporting. Whether
16 that comes into play, like I said, you know, I
17 really hate to even be saying this stuff, because
18 it's all conjecture.
19 Q. I think you testified earlier that
20 eventually -- correct me if I'm wrong -- that at
21 the time the sheriff came out -- did the sheriff
22 come out at that time, to that polling precinct?
23 A. I found out later they were called there.

Page 113
1 By the time they arrived, apparently we had
2 already left; so, no, I didn't actually see the
3 sheriff's deputy. We had already left.
4 Q. Do you know who called the sheriff?
5 A. No.
6 Q. You were offered a provisional ballot,
7 correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. By Mrs. Bates?
10 A. Maybe by more than one of the poll workers.
11 Q. And I think earlier you testified that you
12 have five days to go -- to perfect your ballot?
13 A. To the best of my memory, that's true. It
14 may be five business days, so it may be seven
15 days.
16 Q. Could it be three days?
17 A. I don't think so. I don't know. I would
18 have to double-check the exact number, but I
19 don't believe it's three.
20 Q. If I represented to you that it is three
21 days --
22 A. No, I'm not going to refute it.
23 Q. -- what you testified to earlier about if

Page 114
1 you do not have a photo ID, you're not going to
2 get it within the five days, would that still
3 hold true for what you would be able to do within
4 the three days?
5 A. Yes, it wouldn't make any difference.
6 Q. Do you know if any of your siblings voted a
7 provisional ballot?
8 A. I'm pretty sure they didn't.
9 Q. They did not?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. How did it make you feel that you weren't
12 able to vote at the 2014 election?
13 A. Well, I was pretty disappointed about it.
14 I was a little shocked. And I'm not unused to
15 having to work through situations, but I was
16 shocked because -- primarily because I've been
17 voting with those same poll workers for so many
18 years that, quite frankly, it sort of surprised
19 me that they would have a problem doing that for
20 me, even though I knew there had been some
21 friction before. It was shocking, and it was a
22 little bit frightening, because anytime --
23 government bears power out of necessity, because

Page 115
1 it's a tool that we use in society to protect
2 some of our rights, so we have rights and we look
3 to government to protect some of them for us,
4 which is good and proper. I'm not
5 anti-government, anyway. But when we concentrate
6 power in a few individuals in government instead
7 of the rule of law, I think that should frighten
8 all of us, and it did me.
9 Q. So you felt like -- are you saying that the
10 poll workers had the power, and that is what
11 frightened you?
12 A. Correct. Right, that the law we developed
13 allowed just those few people to -- basically,
14 they were trying to determine who was going to be
15 allowed to vote based on the provision of the
16 positively identify; not on whether or not they
17 positively identified, but based on the
18 interpretation of what that provision meant,
19 even. Does that make sense? Does that answer
20 your question?
21 Q. Yes. Thank you. Do you think it was
22 reasonable or fair that -- or do you think it's
23 reasonable or fair that you have to be positively

Page 116
1 identified in order to vote?
2 A. That depends on what you mean. I think
3 it's fear that there is some way to identify you.
4 Honestly, even having the voter roll there where
5 they're crossing off your name is a form of
6 identifying you, because if you give a name
7 that's not on the list, you're not going to be
8 allowed to vote. And if you give somebody else's
9 name on there and then they come in and try to
10 vote, then obviously that's going to be a check
11 and balance that, you know, is going to be a
12 powerful way to catch fraud. Because if I wanted
13 to go in and I wanted to impersonate someone,
14 which I want to make it clear I don't, how would
15 I choose who wasn't going to be voting today?
16 You know, I could look back at the last election
17 history and see, I could do that; but even that's
18 a check and balance. But as we've already talked
19 about several times, you know, I don't think it's
20 the greatest of all to have a piece of paper
21 mailed to the voter's address. This is just my
22 opinion, but I don't think it's too much to ask
23 if you move, to change your address. You know, I

Page 117
1 don't think that's too much to ask, because you
2 could very easily be moving into another precinct
3 where you'd be voting for -- other precinct or
4 other districts, where your polling location
5 would change or the people you'd be voting for
6 would change. Your representation would be
7 changed. And I don't know the merits of the
8 case, I don't know what the arguments for that
9 not being sufficient are. I haven't really heard
10 that. But as far as asking my opinion, I
11 personally think that's fair, when you asked if I
12 think it's fair to have to be identified. I am
13 willing to be reasonable and acknowledge that
14 it's a benefit to all of us to keep our elections
15 honest.
16 Q. And you think we can keep our elections
17 honest without requiring a photo ID?
18 A. Well, to say otherwise would be to say that
19 George Washington wasn't honestly elected
20 president. I mean, right? Or pick whoever else
21 you want. Pick whoever else you want. Pick John
22 Kennedy, you know. He was a fairly elected
23 president, too, all the way up.

Page 118
1 Q. You testified earlier that you are
2 politically active and that you've worked with
3 campaigns in the past?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that voting is important to you?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Can you tell me why voting is important to
8 you?
9 A. Well, I believe that our nation was set up
10 as a republic where we have representation in
11 government, and the way that we exercise that
12 representation is the voting process and the
13 electoral process.
14 Q. I think you said you've been voting since
15 approximately 1996?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. So even at that time, you also believed
18 that voting was important for you when you began
19 initially to start voting?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You testified earlier about, I believe, the
22 hostility that you've encountered since you've
23 started to speak out, talked to people about not

Page 119
1 having your photo ID and not being allowed to
2 vote; is that correct?
3 A. It's not even -- it's not even talking to
4 people. It's just as that fact became known
5 throughout the community, and how it became known
6 throughout the community is kind of a matter of I
7 don't know. Somebody, either in the probate
8 judge's office or the Sheriff's Department or the
9 election that people at our local precinct told
10 other people, and I don't know who that was. I
11 don't even -- you know, I would tell you, but I
12 don't know. So just that in and of itself.
13 Q. So what hostility have you encountered or
14 faced?
15 A. Well, you know, it's mostly been in the
16 political realm, certain elections, that
17 presence.
18 Q. Could you describe that for me?
19 A. Well, yes, I probably can. I think we
20 already discussed -- we already discussed some of
21 the things regarding the local elections that I
22 feel were a result of it, everything from the
23 Limestone County newspaper to things that I have

Page 120
1 done in campaigns, to rumors, all of those kinds
2 of things. Just what makes a community a
3 community, you know. It's in those spheres. And
4 when I say "community," I don't just mean right
5 where I live, but say all of Limestone County.
6 Q. After the November 2014 election where you
7 weren't allowed to vote, did you do anything
8 about not being able to vote besides -- you know,
9 you spoke to Judge Woodruff; but after you left
10 the precinct, the polling precinct, did you do
11 anything in regards to not being allowed to vote?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did there ever come to a time when you or
14 one of your siblings who were not allowed to vote
15 contacted Senator Beason?
16 A. I would say yes. Now, I don't believe
17 Senator Beason was the author of this particular
18 bill, though, was he? I mean, can I ask you a
19 question? I don't think he was the particular
20 author of this bill, but I do think that somebody
21 in my family probably has talked to Senator
22 Beason about it.
23 Q. Do you know that a conversation happened

Page 121
1 with one of your family members and Senator
2 Beason?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And do you believe that one of those family
5 members contacted Senator Beason maybe because he
6 was a sponsor of the bill?
7 A. I'm not so sure if it was necessarily him.
8 I can't remember whether he was the sponsor of
9 this bill or not. I know he was of the
10 immigration bill, but I couldn't tell you on this
11 one.
12 Q. What, if anything, do you know about the
13 call that your sibling -- do you remember --
14 A. No, I don't know. Probably one of my
15 siblings -- I think the sense I got, from my end
16 of it, was that Senator Beason, I think he
17 honestly -- I think he honestly was at some level
18 surprised that discrimination was coming out of
19 the bill, but I don't know whether that's just --
20 you know, you would like to think everybody would
21 not want to discriminate against people; but, you
22 know, I don't know about Senator Beason. I don't
23 know him personally, so I don't know. My sense

Page 122
1 was that he was surprised that it was being used
2 in a discriminatory manner.
3 Q. Just to clarify, he was surprised that you
4 or your siblings weren't allowed to vote?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And I believe you testified earlier that
7 there came a point where either you or your
8 siblings contacted the Secretary of State?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was it your siblings, or was it you? I'm
11 sorry.
12 A. I didn't talk to the Secretary of State
13 myself, no.
14 Q. It was a sibling?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And I believe you testified in the 2016
17 primary, you had a similar experience where they
18 would not -- the poll workers, one of which was
19 Mrs. Bates, would not positively identify you?
20 A. That would be the runoff election.
21 Q. The runoff election, okay.
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And at that time it was a similar

Page 123
1 experience where the poll workers, including
2 Mrs. Bates, would not --
3 A. It was quicker in and out because, you
4 know, you either will or you won't at that point.
5 Q. In the 2016 general election, before you
6 went to the polling precinct, did you already
7 know that there had been a conversation between
8 the Secretary of State office and Judge Woodruff,
9 and that somehow got conveyed to the poll
10 workers? Did you know all that had transpired
11 before you --
12 A. Yes. Yes, I did.
13 Q. So you had some belief or at least hope
14 that you would be able to vote this time?
15 A. Yes. And actually -- actually, there were
16 some things floating around, like the possibility
17 of having a meeting, where the poll workers could
18 meet anybody they didn't know ahead of time.
19 That was talked about, and I think it was
20 generally any poll workers that would be -- it's
21 my understanding that any poll workers that were
22 going to be affected said that they canceled that
23 a couple days before and said that that really

Page 124
1 wasn't going to be necessary.
2 Q. I'm sorry. Who set that up, do you know?
3 Or who tried to set that up?
4 A. Well, I think it was -- I believe the
5 suggestion originated with Secretary of State
6 Merrill and, certainly, Judge Woodruff. The
7 sense that I got of it was Judge Woodruff
8 initially said, "What do you want me to do? I
9 can't do anything." And Secretary of State
10 Merrill said, "I don't think you understand.
11 People who are allowed to be able to vote are not
12 being allowed to vote. You do understand that
13 they can't obtain photo IDs and that they're
14 qualified to vote, and they're not being allowed
15 to vote, right?" Along those lines. And Judge
16 Woodruff was like, "Well, what do you want me to
17 do about it?" So I think that's how the
18 suggestion of having a meeting with the poll
19 workers came about. And that's somewhat hearsay
20 because I wasn't exactly on those, but I know
21 that meeting was set up, and it sort of went
22 along those lines. And then they said, "No, that
23 won't be necessary."

Page 125
1 Q. The poll workers said that would not be
2 necessary?
3 A. Right. And Mrs. Bates, in particular,
4 requested that she be contacted before anyone
5 without a photo ID came to the polling location.
6 Q. Who did she request that of, or how did she
7 put out this request?
8 A. I guess she told whoever -- I think she
9 told Judge Woodruff, and Judge Woodruff relayed
10 it on. But the problem with that is, I'm not
11 sure poll workers could have cell phones on. I
12 know, like, voters are not supposed to take cell
13 phones into -- anyway, we were never able to
14 reach her by phone, so we wound up just having to
15 check in with her.
16 Q. So to circle back, before you went to the
17 precinct, there had been conversations, as far as
18 you know, between the Secretary of State's
19 office, Judge Woodruff, poll workers?
20 A. There definitely had been conversations
21 between those three parties.
22 Q. And you and/or your siblings were the ones
23 that initiated those conversations by you

Page 126
1 reporting that you were unable to vote because of
2 this photo ID, and your poll workers would not
3 vouch for you. Is that correct?
4 A. Yes, talking directly to the Secretary of
5 State, because we had already talked to the other
6 parties in previous election cycles.
7 Q. So it seems -- and, obviously, correct me
8 if I'm wrong -- that it took a number of
9 elections and you and your family talking to
10 multiple officials, in order for you to be able
11 to finally cast a ballot?
12 A. That's absolutely correct. And something
13 else about that is, I don't want to sound
14 conceited here, but I already knew that Judge
15 Woodruff was in charge of elections in Limestone
16 County. I already knew that Secretary of State
17 Merrill was in charge of elections on a statewide
18 basis. A lot of voters would have to do some
19 digging in order to even find those two. I don't
20 know that that's common knowledge. I would say
21 it's not, based on the people that I know. So it
22 would take some amount of work and dedication on
23 a voter's part to even find out where the next

Page 127
1 chain of command is, I would say.
2 Q. And also, it wasn't a single phone call; is
3 that correct? It was multiple phone calls or
4 conversations that had to be had before you were
5 able to cast your ballot?
6 A. Well, yes, but I think that's not on the
7 Secretary of State. That's on the Limestone
8 County election process, because they were
9 still -- they were still wanting to stonewall, I
10 believe, but they were like -- I mean, obviously,
11 Secretary of State Merrill is the superior
12 officer, if you will, in the chain of command in
13 voting. So I think they realized at that point
14 that it was a situation they were going to have
15 to deal with; and so after that, it was just
16 trying to figure out what that was going to look
17 like.
18 Q. Okay. Can we look back at Plaintiffs' 1,
19 the affidavit? So when you were able to vote in
20 the 2016 general election, can you explain to me
21 again what the poll workers did? I believe you
22 said they created two affidavits. Could you just
23 maybe describe to me -- did the affidavit look

Page 128
1 like this? Explain to me what the affidavit
2 looked like.
3 A. The affidavit actually looked just like
4 this (witness indicating), and they just took an
5 ordinary pen and crossed through sections of it
6 and basically had two copies done, one for
7 myself, where it says, "I further swear or affirm
8 that the elector has been positively identified
9 by me as a voter on the poll list who is eligible
10 to vote. I further swear or affirm under penalty
11 of perjury that all information provided in this
12 affidavit above is true and correct." They left
13 that part in, I think, but they crossed off the
14 part --
15 Q. Okay, sorry, just second.
16 A. They crossed off the part that says "I'm a
17 poll worker," basically, and let me sign it.
18 Leaving in the part that says "I do not have" --
19 crossed out "does not have a valid Alabama photo
20 identification in his/her possession at the
21 polls."
22 Q. I'm sorry, the confusion, I'm sure, is
23 mine.

Page 129
1 A. No. It's a little bit of a confusing
2 process. It was to them. I mean, it was very
3 confusing. It was a very confusing situation.
4 Q. So the first sentence, did they put their
5 names there where it says, "I, ___ and ___ who
6 are both election officials"?
7 A. They only did that on the one that they
8 were signing, which had the part about the "valid
10 possession" crossed out.
11 Q. And then on the second one, you signed that
12 part?
13 A. Yes, I put my name in that part.
14 Q. So on the second affidavit, it says, the
15 second and third sentence, "I further swear or
16 affirm that said elector has been positively
17 identified by me as a voter on the poll list who
18 was eligible to vote. I further swear or affirm
19 under penalty of perjury that all information
20 provided in the affidavit above is true and
21 correct." You signed that part?
22 A. No. That's the part they signed. The part
23 I signed is the part "does not have a valid

Page 130
2 possession at the polls." That's the only part.
3 Q. Okay. Thank you. So that was the solution
4 for the 2016 general election?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Do you have any way of knowing that that
7 solution will work for future elections?
8 A. I don't. I believe it will as long as John
9 Merrill is Secretary of State; but beyond that, I
10 definitely have some question. And the reason I
11 believe it will since he is there is because I
12 think that he's going to try to avoid it. You
13 know, again, what his motivation is for helping
14 out, I can't say. It may be because of this
15 lawsuit. Who knows? It may be because he is a
16 decent human being. You know, that's a
17 possibility, too. And I don't mean other people
18 are not decent human beings. I'm just saying a
19 desire to help our fellow human beings should be
20 something we all exhibit.
22 was taken.)
23 MS. MERLE: Mr. Wahl, I'm complete now, but

Page 131
1 I think defense counsel may have some more
2 questions.
4 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. DAVIS:
5 Q. A few follow-up questions, Mr. Wahl. I
6 think I know the answer to this, but I just want
7 to be clear for the record. Can you tell me the
8 name of any person who lacks a photo ID for any
9 reason other than religious objection?
10 A. In Alabama?
11 Q. Yes.
12 A. No.
13 Q. You said you had conversations, though,
14 with people who lack photo ID?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell me how many?
17 A. This subject has been going on over a
18 number of years, so I would say multiple, but
19 probably not tens.
20 Q. Where did those conversations take place,
21 generally? Were they out in the community?
22 A. Yes. And I would say more often at
23 political functions. But yes, out in the

Page 132
1 community as well.
2 Q. And for any of these people with whom you
3 spoke, do you have any personal knowledge as to
4 whether that person has a birth certificate?
5 A. Not generally, no.
6 Q. You just don't know one way or the other,
7 right?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Which sibling spoke to Secretary Merrill?
10 A. I'm not positive about that.
11 Q. Which sibling spoke to Senator Beason?
12 A. Again, I'm sorry.
13 Q. That's okay. Have you ever been a party to
14 a lawsuit?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you have personal knowledge of how
17 officials in other precincts are enforcing the
18 positively identify provision?
19 MR. ROSS: Objection.
21 A. Personal, no. I have talked to people
22 about it, but I have always voted at this
23 precinct, so. It depends on what you mean by

Page 133
1 "personal."
2 Q. I mean, do you know?
3 A. I know what other people say.
4 Q. Okay, that's different.
5 A. Okay. I've always voted in only one
6 precinct my entire voting life.
7 MR. DAVIS: That's all I've got.
9 RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. DRUM:
10 Q. I just have some clarification. Did you
11 say you're one of seven children, or that you
12 have seven siblings?
13 A. I said I have seven siblings.
14 Q. What's the breakdown of boys and girls?
15 A. One sister.
16 Q. Okay. And the rest are boys?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what age range are you?
19 A. I'm the oldest.
20 Q. You're the oldest, and how young? Is
21 everyone voting age?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And how many of your siblings do not have

Page 134
1 photo IDs?
2 A. Only one of them, maybe, does.
3 Q. Only one sibling has a photo ID?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Is that a brother or a sister?
6 A. Brother.
7 Q. Which sibling moved out of state, one of
8 your brothers or your sister?
9 A. One of my brothers.
10 MS. DRUM: That's all I have.
11 MR. DAVIS: Thank you.
12 (Whereupon, at this time, the deposition
13 was concluded at 3:55 p.m.)
14 FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT.
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

Page 135
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
3 STATE OF ALABAMA)
4 JEFFERSON COUNTY)
6 I hereby certify that the above and
7 foregoing deposition was taken down by me in
8 stenotype and the questions and answers thereto
9 were reduced to typewriting under my supervision
10 and that the foregoing represents a true and
11 correct record of the testimony/evidence given by
12 the deponent.
13 I further certify that I am neither of
14 counsel nor of kin to any of the parties to the
15 action, nor am I in anywise interested in the
16 results of said cause.
17
18
19 /s/Donna L. Winters
20 Donna L. Winters, Commissioner
21 ACCR Certificate Number: AL-373
22 Commissioner for State of Alabama
23 Notary commission expires: 10-22-2017

Joshua X. Wahl Deposition

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Case 2:15-cv-02193-LSC Document 217-3 Filed 09/22/17 Page 1 of 135 FILED

2017 Sep-22 PM 03:54

NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ALABAMA

Civil Action Number 2:15-cv-02193-LSC

DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA X. WAHL

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 2016

JOB NUMBER 205607

Freedom Court Reporting. Inc 877-373-3660

2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and between

3 the parties through their respective counsel,

4 that the deposition of JOSHUA X. WAHL may be

5 taken before Donna Winters, Commissioner and

6 Notary Public, State of Alabama at Large, at the

7 law offices of Maynard, Cooper & Gale, 2400

8 Regions/Harbert Plaza, 1901 Sixth Avenue North,

9 Birmingham, Alabama 35203, on the 9th day of

10 February, 2016 commencing at 1:00 p.m.

11 DEPOSITION OF JOSHUA X. WAHL

Freedom Court Reporting. Inc 877-373-3660

2 the signature to and the reading of the

3 deposition by the witness is reserved, the

4 deposition to have the same force and effect as

5 if full compliance had been had with all laws and

6 rules of Court relating to the taking of

8 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that it

9 shall not be necessary for any objections to be

10 made by counsel as to any questions, except as to

11 form or leading questions, and that counsel for

12 the parties may make objections and assign

13 grounds at the time of the trial, or at the time

14 said deposition is offered in evidence or prior

16 IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that

17 notice of filing of this deposition by the

19 In accordance with Rule 5(d) of Alabama Rules of

20 Civil Procedure, as amended, effective May 15,

21 1988, I, Donna Winters, am hereby delivering to

22 James W. Davis, Esquire, the original transcript

23 of the oral testimony taken on the 9th day of

Freedom Court Reporting. Inc 877-373-3660

2 Please be advised that this is the same and

3 not retained by the Court Reporter, nor filed

4 with the Court.

Freedom Court Reporting. Inc 877-373-3660

3 DX-1 9 Plaintiffs' Initial Disclosures Under

4 FRCP Rule 26(a)(1)

5 DX-2 20 Plaintiffs' Responses to Secretary of

6 State John H. Merrill's First Set of Discovery to

8 PX-1 102 Election Officials' Affidavit for

9 Identifying Qualified Elector

18 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE NUMBER

23 Ms. Merle 81 - 130

Freedom Court Reporting. Inc 877-373-3660

2 MR. DEUEL ROSS and MS. NATASHA C. MERLE,

3 Attorneys at Law, 40 Rector Street, 5th Floor,

4 New York, NY 10006-1738, appearing for the

6 MR. JAMES BLACKSHEAR, Attorney at Law, P.O.

7 Box 626, Birmingham, Alabama 35201, appearing for

9 OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL, State of

10 Alabama, by Mr. James W. Davis, 501 Washington

11 Avenue, Montgomery, Alabama 36130, appearing for

13 MAYNARD, COOPER & GALE, by Ms. Starr Turner

14 Drum, 2400 Regions/Harbert Plaza, 1901 Sixth

15 Avenue North, Birmingham, Alabama 35203,

16 appearing for the Defendant, Governor Bentley in