century saw Kant as a charismatic figure for the same reason.

I think there is no
fully rationaljustification for moral universalism. It has to be a sort of faith.
RS: Do you think it could be an aesthetic justification for it?

HJ Yes. Well, let us say not a justification but an experiential grounding. Aes-
thetics can be an experiential grounding.

RS: Well, this is part of what I am working on now. It is the relation between
aesthetic experience and reasoning, which I think is completely intertwined.
When it is achieved there is something that we would call charisma. I learned
this from mathematicians, who always talk about elegance in equations. When
they talk about those aesthetic qualities or reasoning in a certain way, they see
the equation itself as having a kind of charismatic power. Maybe it is not a re-
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gression so much but a fulfilment of another task which is the hidden reason-
ing. It seems nonsensical that a math equation could be charismatic, but not to
a mathematician.

HJ No, not to me. Even John Dewey uses the example of the successful solu-
tion of mathematical problems as an example for what happens with a purely
intrinsic motivation. It is not an instrument, although it can be: You solve the
mathematical problem because you have some engineering problems and you
have to do it. Or you do it for fun. You can solve mathematical problems for fun,
then it is the closure of the 'Gestalt' or something like that. You have come to
that conclusion now, and then you are definitely interested in an elegant way.

RS: Well, I would not say that you would come to a conclusion. What I would say
about this is that you have achieved form. For me, the aesthetics is an achieve-
ment of form.

HJ: I fully agree.

RS: It is never closure. It is never a conclusion.

HJ: I agree with the first part but I think that, say, the artist at a certain point has
the feeling, 'now it is well rounded'. This can be meta-meta, of course. It is not
well rounded as such but in the way it is placed into an environment and now I
can leave it as an object that is independent of me.

RS: No. If that were true, Hans, then in those stages when artists really find that
form they would stop working. They do not stop. They do not. The great exam-
ple for us of this is Matisse, who is constantly working on the problem of colour
and constantly solving it. Each solution, which achieves this form, enables him
to build on that, to try something else. I think that is generally true in the arts.
We maybe are speaking past each other about the word closure.

HJ: I think we are.