Perhaps it’s always been trendy among a certain demographic of

people to condemn religion for its violence and to claim that more
harm has been done in its service than in anything else. Many people
have expressed this sentiment to me in the last several months, in
the wake of murders, attacks and suicide bombings – both here and
abroad – done in the name of religion. They shake their heads and
bemoan(to complian or say that u are not happy abut sth) the
tenacious(determine) saliency(impotance) of religion in today’s
modern world, and its inherent violence, concluding – at least as far
as I can tell – that if we were somehow able to abolish religion, then
we’d have no or very little violence in the world.
I don’t buy it – that more harm has been done in the service of
religion than for anything else, nor that we would have very little
violence in our world if we managed to successfully abolish religious
belief.
As for the amount of harm, how exactly is that counted? In bodies?
Let’s look at some of history’s largest armed conflicts and genocides.
World War II had between 40-70 million casualties, 6 million of those
being Jews killed in the extermination (to kill all people of group)
camps. Clearly a particular group was targeted for their religio-ethnic
identity, but we go too far in saying World War II was a religious war.
It was not. Along with World War II, the An Shi Rebellion in medieval
China (approx. 35 million deaths), the Mongol and Tatar invasions of
the 12th-14th centuries (est. 45 million deaths), the Manchu conquest
of the 17th century (est. 25 million deaths), the Dungan revolt of the
19th century (est. 25 million deaths), and World War I (approx. 20
million deaths) round out the list of the genocides and armed conflicts
with the highest estimated body counts. None of these can be
described legitimately as religious wars, or wars conducted primarily
under the banner of a religion.
The European conquest of the Americas has a death count estimated
at 50 million, which includes deaths from the diseases brought to the
immunity-lacking natives. Some estimates put the death count here
as high as 100 million. Certainly, religion played a role in these
deaths; religion was (and remains) part of the rationale of colonialism.
However, it’s only a third. Colonialism is a three-headed hydra that
seeks to impose not only a culture (usually a religious culture) but
also a form of government and an economic system. Hence, colonial
conquest is a much – or more – about money and power as it is
about religion.
The religious wars in Europe? The war in the Balkans in the 1990′s?
The Rwandan genocide? Yes, these involve religion to a large extent.
And, make no mistake about it, they are horrible. But, in terms of
measuring “the most harm” in number of deaths, these conflicts don’t
come near those listed above.
So, I don’t think the available data supports the notion that religion
has done more harm than anything else. Moreover, even if it had –
and we were able to somehow abolish religion from the hearts of
people everywhere – I’m not sure we would have a reduction in world
violence. Religion, like every other human cultural product (or, as a
perfect revelation given by God but nevertheless managed and
propagated in the world by limited, flawed human beings), does not
exist as a freestanding force or entity in the world apart from its
human “creators” or “caretakers.” In other words, religion qua
religion doesn’t do a darn thing in the world. WE do it. When violence
has been done in the name of religion, it’s not religion itself – as a
separate force in the world – that has done it. WEhave done it,
through religion.
The alleged violence of religion is simply our own violence done in
religion’s name. Without religion, we simply find other banners under
which to continue our deadly plans. The violence of religion is not the
problem; the real problem is the seemingly primal violence embedded
in our own hearts. It is that violence which is most resistant to
uprooting.
Ironically, religion is the tool we most commonly use to do just that.

Myth 2: Religion Does More Harm Than Good

FATHER THOMAS D. WILLIAMS, LC

In their attacks on God and religion, the neo-atheist authors such as

Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are
especially vehement in their accusations concerning the effects of
religion on the public order.
The atheists charge that
religion is a net evil for
civilization, and allege that, on
the whole, our society would be
healthier and more secure
without religious belief.

Hitchens, for instance, in his book God Is Not Great, asks

whether the net effect of religion is positive or negative.
Does religion do more harm than good (p. 217)?

He answers with a resounding "Yes!"

Religion is the cause of all social woes. The provocative

subtitle of his book -- How Religion Poisons Everything --
seems to imply that religion does nothing but harm.

This may strike us as strange, since the common wisdom of

humanity has always held that religion makes people better,
not worse. Our own experience often backs this up.

So what possible reasons could the atheists have to make

the extravagant claim that religious belief has a negative
effect on people's behavior? What evidence do they put
forward?

On close examination, it turns out that the atheists' real

evidence is rather thin.

Rather than examine religious teachings and practice to

discover their effects on society, Hitchens, for example,
prefers to offer anecdotal evidence for his claim. He begins
his 13th chapter titled "Does Religion Make People Behave
Better?" with a personal attack on Martin Luther King Jr.

Here Hitchens makes a clever, though absurd, assertion. He

asks whether King's Christianity made him a better person.
His answer is that yes, Martin Luther King did all sorts of
good things for society in the area of civil rights, but …
 Let's take the
example of one of
here's the kicker … he wasn't a the most beneficent
Christian. He may have said he was disciplines there is:
a Christian and thought he was a medicine. Imagine
Christian, but he was mistaken, and if you were to
Hitchens knows better. undertake a study
of the biggest
"In no real as opposed to nominal
blunders committed
sense," Hitchens avers, "was [King]
in the name of
a Christian" (p. 176).
medicine
By what rhetorical legerdemain does throughout history
Hitchens arrive at this conclusion? -- from botched
surgeries, to
The only proof he puts forward to bleeding with
back up this thesis is that King didn't leeches, to cranial
advocate violence and didn't boring, to the
threaten people with hell, so he hellish
must not have been a true Christian. experimentation
afflicted by Nazi
This is like saying that Hitchens doctors on war
couldn't be a true atheist, since he is prisoners -- and
too nice a guy. used such research
as an indictment of
So what do our neo-atheist authors the entire field of
make of Christianity's undeniable medicine.
contributions to society?

They basically start with the Martin

Luther King premise: If a person did good things, he couldn't
have been religious. If he did bad things, he must have been
religious -- despite whatever evidence to the contrary.

And if a clearly religious person did something good, he

must have done it despite his being religious, and not
because of it. And so the deck is hopelessly stacked against
religion from the start.

Hitchens and company claim to follow the Gospel principle of

judging a tree by its fruits, but as for the tree of religion,
they consider only the rotten fruits, never the good ones.
The innumerable saints, geniuses and benefactors nourished
by the Christian faith simply count for nothing.

In making their case, Hitchens and company refrain from

considering the almost countless ways that Christianity has
benefited the world as we know it today.

What of the hospitals? What of the orders of nuns

established to care for the dying or educate young girls?
What of the soup kitchens and orphanages? What of the
preservation of classical culture? What of the artistic and
literary treasures?

Instead, they choose to enumerate the things that

Christianity hasn't done to better the world or hasn't done
well enough or has simply done too slowly!

This pseudo-methodology can be used to discredit anything.

Let's take the example of one of the most beneficent disciplines there is: medicine.
Imagine if you were to undertake a study of the biggest blunders committed in the name
of medicine throughout history -- from botched surgeries, to bleeding with leeches, to
cranial boring, to the hellish experimentation afflicted by Nazi doctors on war prisoners --
and used such research as an indictment of the entire field of medicine.

During the unprincipled years of the late 19th century, for

instance, medical quackery abounded, and hundreds of
traveling medicine shows extolled the virtues of worthless
potions and products, from Dr. Kilmer's Swamp Root, to Dr.
Pierce's Nasal Douche, to Kickapoo Indian Sagwa, to Dr.
Hercules Sanche's Oxydonor.

By Hitchens' standard, medicine has been an unmitigated

disaster for humanity, and all doctors should be shuffled off
to the guillotine! Yet if there can be good medicine and bad
medicine, why can't there be good religion and bad religion?

Moreover, in their search for historical examples to make

their case, the atheist authors spill very little ink calmly
confronting the teachings and practices of religions today
(except in the case of Islamic fundamentalists) and instead
spend page after page describing the most hideous
examples they can find of errors committed in the name of
religion in centuries past.

For example, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope John Paul II

before him have repeated over and over again that God and
religion cannot be co-opted to justify violence. Violence in
the name of religion is an aberration. Yet nowhere do
Hitchens or his cronies acknowledge this.

Time after time Hitchens makes the claim that anything

done in the name of religion could just as well be done in
the name of secular humanism. Thus -- he says -- religion
really contributes nothing.

He seems to miss the more important point: People actually

do many good things by religious motivation that they
wouldn't do otherwise. People could be compassionate and
selfless in the name of secular humanism, but the fact
remains that they more often are compassionate and
unselfish in the name of religion.

Resolved that Cristianity does more harm than good.

Definitions:
A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and
purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation
of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional
and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing
the conduct of human affairs.

This is no doubt a touchy subject, but I won't beat around the bush with it.
Religion simply does much more harm than it does good. Let me first say that I
am referring to all religion, but primarily I refer to the three major monotheistic
religions of the world, namely christianity, islam, and judaism. It has been
demonstrated time and time again that not only do they do barely any good for
the world, but in fact they have a severe adverse effect on humanity as a
whole. My argument is centered around religion being a direct cause of a
certain event or way of thinking (good or bad) as well as deep seeded
emotional goods and bads directly caused by religion.

1)Religion causing harm physically

Indeed, it would be difficult to disagree that religion has done a lot of physical
harm to people over the years. The following are just a few examples of this;
September 11 attacks on the USA, beheadings in the middle east, the murder
of abortion doctors in the USA, continued suicide bombings in the middle east,
the bombing of abortion clinics in the USA, and of course everyone's favorite,
the crusades.

Now these things might be grouped by some people to be just the work of
'crazy fundamentalists'. However, it is still religion. You have to ask yourself,
where would 'extreme' religion be without 'moderate' religion? Surely it
wouldn't exist. Ask yourself this, would these atrocities have occurred if these
people were not religious? I say no. Why blow yourself up in a school bus if
you don't genuinely believe that you are going to be rewarded in an afterlife?
Why face the death penalty for killing a doctor in his home if you don't think
you are doing "god's" work? I contend that religion is a direct cause of these
things.

2)Religion causing harm mentally

All religions require some degree of faith. Most religions require adherence to
scripture (certainly the three monotheistic religions do). In my mind, the
concept of faith is a childish one. People shouldn't believe anything upon
insufficient evidence, the concept of 'believing in x because the
bible/quaran/torah says so' is not only irresponsibly ignorant, but downright
dangerous. Imagine a world where people are educated with this frame of
mind, in faith. Are we to teach our children that the right way to think, is to
think without questioning? Are we to decide that the rational mind is dead?

To prove a point, I need only to refer to a map of the world. Think of some
countries and think of the religions attributed to those countries, what comes
to mind?

Brazil- Christianity (89% of population)

Turkey- Islam (99% of population)
Israel- Judaism (76.4% of population)

(all from CIA world factbook)

The very fact that you can achieve over three quarters of a population to be
one religion lends the idea that the children in those states don't exactly have a
large choice when it comes to what religion (if any) he or she should believe in.
Taking the freedom of thought away from children is always wrong, as is the
dangerous dogmatic faith which lends itself to physical religion-inspired
violence.
3)Possible goods done by religion
Probably the most prominent thing to look at for this would be to look at
groups such as the salvation army. Group that give food to the homeless, that
provide shelter for the needy, and give presents to orphans on christmas. Of
course I have no problem with what they are doing, I think it is great of them.
But you have to ask, is the sole cause of their generosity their religion? As I've
done with the physical harm done by religion, you need to ask the same
questions. Would these people be drastically different if they weren't religious?
I don't think they would be. I don't think a humanitarian worker would stop
working if their religion were to disappear. And if they would stop working then
you have to question their legitimacy of their actions. Were they just being nice
because they were 'forced'? Keeping in mind that not all members of these
organisations are religious you have to ask another question. Is there a
correlation between religiosity and morality? The answer to that is no.

I thank whoever decides to accept this debate, and I look forward to it. I've
never had any experience in debates to excuse me if I miss some things or
what have you.
Report this Argument

Con
If I understand your argument, you point to two areas where religion does
harm:

1. Physical harm. Specifically religion is the cause of some wars and terrorism.

2. Mental harm. Specifically the suspension of disbelief and logic.

Point 1:

Governments exist and have been the cause of some wars and terrorism. By
itself, this does not prove that either the institution of Government nor the
institution of Religion 'Does more harm than good'.

Point 2:

It is impossible for any human to have contemplated all potential scenarios one
may experience. Therefore it is impossible for any human to have a formalized
conclusion as to what is the correct behavior in all circumstances.

What I mean by this, is that for most people, they go through life and 'just do
it'. They may be able to give you a well thought out reason 'after the fact' if
you ask them, but by in large, they have absorbed social mores through
experience. They do not act based on a formalized philosophy derived from
great introspection and thought.

You later point to a 'correlation' between morality and religion. It is a defining

characteristic of religions to espouse a code of morality. It is their greatest and
most enduring feature. Where as the 'leaders' of the faith, some doctrine,
influence on societies may ebb and flow, a constant is their primary function of
'preaching' a belief system.

Let us consider one of you main arguments described as point one above. If
we take the two institutions, religion and the state, and compare lives I would
argue that religion wins hands down.

Where as both have been the source or a significant contributing factor to

wars, only religion is associated with life. Those of faith have higher total
fertility rates than those who do not. In fact it is only in the 'rational developed'
world of radical secularlism, where nihilism reigns, that you find a belief system
so devoid of logic, that it destroys its membership with each generation.

When all belief systems are equal, none are. The belief of moral relativism is a
sham perpetuated to its believers ruin.

And like the 'state', religions provide a function. So long as there is demand for
that function, religions will exist. You point to the Abrahamic faiths. No state
has ever survived over two thousand years. Even when significant differences
occurred, it was not the end of faith but a branching out to meet the needs of
specific populations.

If I were a betting person, I would bet a form of Abrahamic faith will far outlive
any of the states that currently exist.
Report this Argument

Pro
First off, thanks for taking the debate.

Now let me say that it would be foolish of me to argue that government aren't
to blame for certain acts of terrorism and wars (see; ongoing palestinian/israeli
conflict). However like I've said, only religion can be cited as a direct cause of
certain things. Suicide bombings for one. If there were no religion, the simple
fact is people would not blow themselves up. I have not yet heard of one
example of one example of someone blowing themselves up in the name of
secularism and the rational mind. Another example which I touched on before,
the bombing of abortion clinics. People wouldn't jeopardise their lives on this
earth if they did not genuinely believe their own rhetoric.

Going onto morality in religion, what seems to me to be clear is that the

supposed 'morality' from religion is expunged (remove) from a mountain of
what seems in our time to be incredible immoral behaviour. Some quotes
following

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the
hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge
indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the
believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them
above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them

who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true
against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on
the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was
wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your
children."
DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance,
do not leave alive anything that breathes."

Now these are just three quotes from the bible and three quotes from the
Quaran. There are many more out there that show these texts aren't things of
morality. This has nothing to do with interpretation as of yet, interpretation is
done by 'moderates' and 'extremists'. Simply looking at the texts, looking at
quotes, and getting a general feel of the book, it is difficult to say that these
books provide a solid moral compass. If anything, the perceived 'morality' of
these texts are given by the interpretation of the humans reading it. Not the
other way around.

You make a comparison between religion and the state, however this is not my
intention at all. Atheism, 'lack of faith' isn't connected at all with the state.
Governments causing wars, should not be connected with 'atheism' starting
wars because:

A) I can't think of any heads of state that are openly atheist

B) Much like religion causing some forms of terrorism, atheism is not a cause of
inter-governmental wars.

In fact I cannot think of one example of atheism being a direct cause of any
atrocities whatsoever. I remind you that it must be caused by atheism, ie the
Khmer Rouge destroying religion was not caused by atheism, rather, it was a
side effect to Pol Pot's plan to take control of Cambodia. Same thing with Stalin
destroying churches in Soviet Russia, it was not caused by his secularism but
rather, it was caused by his intent of ruling his people with a new religion of
Stalinism. It just seems to be that by definition, someone cannot commit an
immoral or violent act in the name of disbelief.
This idea of 'radical secularism, where nihilism reigns' is a strange one, you
seem to be suggesting that somehow a lack of belief can be radicalised so that
it is devoid of logic. As I've said before, I struggle to find one example of a
state that is openly atheist, or even, one state that currently has the majority
of the population that is atheist. From my research I think the biggest
percentage of atheists in the world is about 19% in France (correct me if I'm
wrong, this was done quickly).
Report this Argument

Con
Suicide bombings do occur outside of religions as evidenced by the Bushido
code and the Spartans stand at Thermopoly. It would be a poor General that
was unwilling to sacrifice men for tactical or strategic advantage. Selflessly
dieing for the benefit of many is consistently (I mean in nearly every group of
people except for perhaps liberals), valued and considered by that group to be
'honorable'.

Many of these areas that you are entering are not new, nor are they the sole
purvew of religion. The tactical decisions you describe are a subset of
Asymmetrical Warfare.

"If anything, the perceived 'morality' of these texts are given by the
interpretation of the humans reading it. Not the other way around."

I don't see how this in any way proves that religions do more harm than good.
I agree completely. In fact, doctrine does change over time to better meet
their 'clients' needs. I don't see how this makes religions more harmful. In fact,
I see this as a reason to think the exact opposite.
The reason for me bringing up states is because they are competitors in the
area of morality, the principal product of Religions. Here you have two
institutions and both provide a similar good. In some areas of the world,
religions provide more social services than their governments. But it is not
these areas that I am focusing on, though they are relevant.

The area of morality was the issue that I focused on above with:

"Those of faith have higher total fertility rates than those who do not. In fact it
is only in the 'rational developed' world of radical secularlism, where nihilism
reigns, that you find a belief system so devoid of logic, that it destroys its
membership with each generation."

In many countries, including 'the West', the state and religions are seperate.
This has the potential for different values to clash. In this case, by design,
there is a seperation of Church and State for the purpose of allowing religious
freedoms. This 'tolerance' was by design to 'enable' religions and their morality
to exist without interference from the state.

Fast forward.

Currently, this 'tolerance' has morphed into moral relativism. Instead of

creating a framework from which people can practice a morality and be given
equal treatment under the law, we now have a philosophy in the public sphere
where all philosophies are equal. Because all philosophies are equal, none is
superior so therefore it matters not one bit whether or not you act according
any specific moral code whether that be a religious code or any other
philosophy.
There is no 'meaning'. Any attempt to make a judgement is replied with, "who
are you to judge? Are we not all equal?". Tolerance has become a handcuff to
moral behavior.

The not so funny joke is that this modern day version of tolerance is in fact a
philosophy, and not a new one at that, called Nihilism.

Nihilism:
http://en.wikipedia.org...
Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position which argues
that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Nihilists
generally assert some or all of the following:

* Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is logically preferable to

any other in regards to the moral value of one action over another.
* In the absence of morality, existence has no intrinsic higher meaning or goal.
* There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler
or creator.
* Even if a higher ruler or creator exists, mankind has no moral obligation to
worship them.

The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a

general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence.[1]"

So what you have are no longer classical liberalism in the public sphere. What
you have is nihilism running around as modern day liberalism. The result of a
valueless society is ultimately failure. You can see it now the negative growth
rates of the 'west'. The low birth rates is the result of not believing in anything
(and in particular the emphasis on family that one finds in relgions).
Regrettably, those proponents of this neo-nihilism are too focused on how
tolerant they are, they fail to see the ground crumbling beneath them.

Religions are institutions made by men. As such there will be many instances of
'bad things'. It is inevitable. But, one episode or even many does not make the
institution have a net negative value. I argue on the basis of family formation
and reproduction alone, that religions have a net positive impact on humanity.
Report this Argument

Religious organisations tend to act as a reactionary

pull on wider society opposing egalitarian reforms and
developments

POINT
It is a basic tenant of all religions that they divide humanity
into ‘us’ and ‘them’ – believers and non-believers.
However, the divisions of society perceived by religious
believers do not stop there, and have a tendency to reflect
the social and moral views of an earlier and far less
progressive age.

As well as condemning those who practice other faiths, or

who choose to follow no faith, they have fought, and
continued to fight, the expansion of the rights of women
and of socially marginalised castes, among other social
groups. All of the major churches and sects have had to be
dragged kicking and screaming into the modern world, and
most of them are still desperately trying to ignore the
existence of modernity. While justifying their political and
moral positions through obtuse and deliberately obscure
interpretations of religious texts, obscure texts even the
mainstream interpretations of major religions are usually
sexist, frequently racist and almost universally
homophobic.

Preventing access to contraception is the single largest

block to women getting out of poverty. There are many
other examples of the excesses and double standards of
mainstream religion – too many examples to pick one.

improve this

COUNTERPOINT
All of the major religions teach respect for others
regardless of whether people agree with their lifestyle or
beliefs. That’s a huge advance on much of secular thought
– quite without the help of religious organisations,
prejudice exists within the worlds of business, politics and
science. It seems a little unfair to single out one area of life.
At least religious organisations are based on the belief that
everybody should be treated with respect, which is not a
claim that could be made be most political creeds.

In addition there are few social changes that have not

involved religious radicals at their foundation. Rightly or
wrongly, major religious organisations tend to reflect the
views of the societies of which they are a part. It seems
unfair to blame the religious organisations for that.
It is also worth distinguishing between nations where one
religious belief is wide-spread and almost normative in
nature, and those where it is far more of a choice. If women
or homosexuals chose to join a church in a pluralist society,
presumably they are not expecting to be a priest.

Because religion combines dogmatic certainty with the

existence of the afterlife, violence and death is all too easy
to justify

POINT
Particularly in the case of contemporary Islam, although
other historical examples could be referred to, the
combination of certainty and the promise of life after death
is a sure route towards violence. That said, Catholics and
Protestants in Northern Ireland demonstrated this until
recently; the Yugoslav wars between Catholics, Orthodox
and Muslims, both sides of the battle for Israel/Palestine
and many others in history could also be thrown into the
mix.

Allowing people the opportunity to claim that “God’s on

our side” can be used to justify anything, especially when
He appears to be fighting on both sides.

improve this

COUNTERPOINT
Many people have been keen to wrap themselves in the
trappings of religion just as they do in the flag or in the
rhetoric of one political ideology or another.
Seeking to associate one’s opinions with one creed or
another is the oldest trick in the ideologue’s book.

The fact that men of violence claim to be doing things in

the name of peaceful religions tells us very little about the
religions themselves. In the modern world they is no
reputable religious leader doing so and those minority
leaders who attempt to are generally condemned and
ostracized by the principle leaders of their faiths.

Laying responsibility for violence at the foot of religion as

a whole gives credibility to a handful of extremists – in
much the same way that conflating patriotism and fascism
would.

Regardless of the protestations of some there is no major

religion that has not been involved in persecuting non-
believers at some point in its history and most still are

POINT
Although in much of the world the days of the crusades and
the inquisition may be gone, there are plenty of nations
were religious disobedience still is still punished harshly,
summarily or extra-judicially. In other countries, semi-
official militias are left to enforce the minutiae of religious
law, although usually in such a way as to disadvantage
women and others already persecuted in society.

It should be noted that what tends to be the focus of such

persecution is a lack of adherence to an ultra-orthodox
position. It is frequently a cover for political or social
prejudice. Charges of heresy or apostasy are easy to level
and nigh on impossible to disprove.

Even beyond these extremes, demands for religious

observance play out in US elections and, inexplicably, the
views of religious leaders are sought on areas where they
really have no relevant expertise at all, such as advances in
medical progress. Those who disagree on matters such as
stem cell research or gay rights are, apparently, arguing
with the Almighty.

improve this

COUNTERPOINT
Secularism is a peculiarly Western European concern. In
most of the world religious observance is taken very
seriously. Denying people access to the guidance of
religious leaders flies in the face of allowing people
freedom of choice and conscience.

Secularists routinely, and somewhat arrogantly, insist that

their voices must be heard but those of people of faith,
despite representing the overwhelming view of humanity,
should be silenced.

Equally where there are religious precepts incorporated

within the law. One of the oldest systems of secular, state
arbitrated law- the common law of England- is based
largely on religious principles. For secularists to attack
religious people for criticizing difference, when all they are
 really saying is that most people aren’t secularists, is the
height of hypocrisy.

Most of the world takes religious observance very seriously

and expect their beliefs to be respected by their
international political leaders and others.

RELIGION HAS DONE MORE HARM TO

MANKIND THAN GOOD.?
COMMENT WITH REASONS IF YOU DISAGREE KEEPING
WHOLE WORLD IN MIND( ESPECIALLY ASIA, WHERE MOST
DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE).
 4 years ago
 Report Abuse
Additional Details
sophist didn't you heard of zoroastrians in persia,current situation in
afghanistan, formation of pakistan and bangladesh, current kashmir
issue, sri lankan skirmishes, persecution of hindus in bhutan(very few
are aware of this fact), communal riots in south asia etc.
4 years ago
Wesley B
Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
It depends on what you mean by "religion." 

I think spirituality is a fascinating and beneficial survival tool and that

we are perhaps even evolved with a bias toward being spiritual. 

However, slap the word "organized" in front of "religion" in your

statement above and I'd say that it has done its fair share of
destruction. Even to its benefits, but perhaps surpassing them.
 Rani
I think that the differences in religions might have caused harm. I
don't believe believing in God, and believing in answering to a higher
power for wrongs that each individual has committed is harmful. It
causes believing people to think twice before they cheat, steal, lie
etc... 
 Most religions do not promote unethical practices, but instead, those
on the "fanatical" side tend to commit unethical acts in order to
promote their beliefs, or distort what the real intentions of the religion
was meant to do. 
So in sum, Mankind has harmed religion, not vice versa.
o 4 years ago
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 Sam Sam
I do agree. See… religions in my opinion are another way of politician
to gain everything, thousand years ago, it was magic and magician.
with advance in logic and science it turn to super natural religious
believes and now in this century people are going to notice that these
are bull**** as well, so where are you politician to build another
religion based on the internet and atom, space, etc

Just to rule ignorant people they have made and it really worked out,
one point is it is not just one of them, they are too many and fighting
to each other to rule more people and who are the victims? People
and they don’t know why? 

Perhaps Good benefits are: some Arabs in blah blah years ago did
not know what they should do after shitting or some damn other
ignorant did not know that they should not sleep with their sister, who
cares now? Some more war to defense one and defeat another one?
None of them were good, all of them in one period of time kills and
burns people and then inventor, followers noticed that it is not
working in this way anymore and they change it in to guitar playing
prayers and lovely cheek dancing instead of torture like original
praying.
o 4 years ago
o Report Abuse
 moon chariot
When religions first started, they were followed with a certain amount
of faith. Probably people saw a man/woman/creature do something
extraordinary and were baffled by it. They created traditions, means
of worship, certain rules in the Honor of the person/object of worship.
All these tendencies, according to me are primitive and baseless.
Somebody might have had an experience of the divine or whatever
the f*** is responsible for all of this, and people just blindly followed.
After years of recycling and exploitation, religion is an excuse to base
 how to live your life. They are an utter waste of time. The only reason
why religion should exist is just to remind us that when it comes to
ground reality, it doesn't help much.
o 4 years ago
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 thomas_t...
In actuality, religion based on falsewoods & mans ideas have been
involved in all atrocities one way another since Cain murdered Abel in
the first homicide!

Here is Scriptural fact as to what false religions diabolical activity has

been :

(Revelation 18:24) “. . .Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets

and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the
earth.””

(Revelation 19:2-3) “ 2 because his judgments are true and righteous.

For he has executed judgment upon the great harlot ("Babylon the
Great"**----my comment) who corrupted the earth with her fornication,
and he has avenged the blood of his slaves at her hand.” 3 And right
away for the second time they said: “Praise Jah, YOU people! And
the smoke from her goes on ascending forever and ever.””

**World empire of false religion--Revelation 17, 18,19 

INFAMOUS ACTIVITY OF FALSE RELIGION in our time:

*** re chap. 36 The Great City Devastated ***

“The Kings . . . Committed Fornication With Her”
In the early 1800’s European merchants were smuggling large
quantities of opium into China. In March 1839 Chinese officials tried
to stop the illegal trade by seizing 20,000 chests of the drug from
British merchants. This led to tension between Britain and China. As
relations between the two countries deteriorated, some Protestant
missionaries urged Britain to go to war, with statements such as the
following:
“How these difficulties do rejoice my heart because I think the English
government may be enraged, and God, in His power may break down
the barriers which prevent the gospel of Christ from entering
China.”—Henrietta Shuck, Southern Baptist missionary.
Finally, war broke out—the war that is today known as the Opium
War. Missionaries wholeheartedly encouraged Britain with comments
such as these:
--“I am constrained to look back upon the present state of things not
so much as an opium or an English affair, as the great design of
Providence to make the wickedness of man subserve His purposes of
mercy toward China in breaking through her wall of exclusion.”—
Peter Parker, Congregationalist missionary.

-- Another Congregationalist missionary, Samuel W. Williams, added:

“The hand of God is apparent in all that has transpired in a
remarkable manner, and we doubt not that He who said He came to
bring a sword upon the earth has come here and that for the speedy
destruction of His enemies and the establishment of His own
kingdom. He will overturn and overturn until He has established the
Prince of Peace.”

--Regarding the horrendous slaughter of Chinese nationals,

missionary J. Lewis Shuck wrote: “I regard such scenes . . . as the
direct instruments of the Lord in clearing away the rubbish which
impedes the advancement of Divine Truth.”
Congregationalist missionary Elijah C. Bridgman added: “God has
often made use of the strong arm of civil power to prepare the way for
His kingdom . . . The agency in these great moments is human; the
directing power divine. The high governor of all the nations has
employed England to chastize and humble China.”—Quotations
taken from “Ends and Means,” 1974, an essay by Stuart Creighton
Miller published in The Missionary Enterprise in China and America
(a Harvard Study edited by John K. Fairbank).
[Box on page 264]

“The Traveling Merchants . . . Became Rich”

“Between 1929 and the outbreak of World War II, [Bernadino] Nogara

[the Vatican financial administrator] assigned Vatican capital and
Vatican agents to work in diversified areas of Italy’s economy—
particularly in electric power, telephone communications, credit and
banking, small railroads, and the production of agricultural
implements, cement, and artificial textile fibers. Many of these
 ventures paid off.
“Nogara gobbled up a number of companies including La Società
Italiana della Viscosa, La Supertessile, La Società Meridionale
Industrie Tessili, and La Cisaraion. Fusing these into one company,
which he named CISA-Viscosa and placed under the command of
Baron Francesco Maria Oddasso, one of the most highly trusted
Vatican laymen, Nogara then maneuvered the absorption of the new
company by Italy’s largest textile manufacturer, SNIA-Viscosa. 
--Eventually the Vatican interest in SNIA-Viscosa grew larger and
larger, and in time the Vatican took control—as witness the fact that
Baron Oddasso subsequently became vice president.
“Thus did Nogara penetrate the textile industry. He penetrated other
industries in other ways, for Nogara had many tricks up his sleeve.
This selfless man . . . probably did more to infuse life into the Italian
economy than did any other single businessman in Italy’s history . . .
Benito Mussolini had never quite been able to achieve the empire of
which he dreamed, but he enabled the Vatican and Bernadino
Nogara to create a dominion of another kind.”—The Vatican Empire,
by Nino Lo Bello, pages 71-3.
This is just one example of the close cooperation between the
merchants of the earth and Babylon the Great. No wonder these
merchants are weeping"
o 4 years ago
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 AD
I completely agree with your statement
The person who had thought of religion for the first time would not
have ever had a nightmare that this would be a cause
of destruction of humanity.
Can you imagine the level of stupidity I kill you because you did not
imagine to call God what I call.

You call a cat, CAT I call Billi but the living being remains the same,
this simple logic is not clear to people.
I pity the ignorance...
o 4 years ago
o Report Abuse
 from an atheist view religion if anything has only tried to be good.
what causes all the problems is the disagreements in religion. when
pilgrims came to america they were supposedly escaping from their
religious oppressors (king forced them to be a specific religion) yet
when they got to america they tried conforming the natives.
o 4 years ago
o Report Abuse

 Sophist
Asia? I would have thought the worst damage was done in the mid-
east. As I understand Asian history, very few wars were fought over
religion. However, the mid-east has know almost nothing but religious
war.

I do agree that religion has done far more harm than good. Let each
man find his own god if he needs one.

anized religion has done more harm than

good.
Is organized religion Good?? Is organized religion Bad?
Side Score: 26 Side Score: 64
Add New Argument Add New Argument
 charliedog(1)  PungSviti(545)

1 point  
Tha only thing I could say about this being Anyone who puts himself between you and the claimed
organized....It really gives all those ignorant people a great and unfathamable power in the world, is obviousl
way to go in there life if they didnt have that they man.
would be totally lost in this world Imagine a mouse telling another mouse that he represen
1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? sun and the other mouse should give him a tenth (or a ta
Support | Dispute | Clarify subsidy, whatever) so the paying/swindled mouse can l
↑ Hide Replies how to surrender to the heat of the sun in the right way.
 ricedaragh(2415) Disputed
Con´s usually hurt people but there are arguably except
0 pointssuch as maybe Santa Claus (although he gets some com
I dont understand your point, what being organised? for being the deity of consumerism)
Who are the ignorant people?. 1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
Support | Dispute | Clarify
1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
Support | Dispute | Clarify ↑ Hide Replies
↑ Hide Replies  lawnman(1103)
 ricedaragh(2415) Disputed
 1 point  An excellent analogy of the religions of both Church an
Why was I down graded I was only asking a question State. Most people tend to overlook the religion of State
as i did'nt understand the post. 1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
1038 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? Support | Dispute | Clarify
Support | Dispute | Clarify ↑ Hide Replies
 Medusa(17)  aveskde(1882) Disputed

1 point  
As with any major institution or corporation it almost An excellent analogy of the religions of both Church
always leads to some sort of corruption, whether it be State. Most people tend to overlook the religion of S
religion or science. I think science could be indicted State, by why you mean politics and government, is not
in the same way, as it has created nuclear bombs and religion. I think you mean zealous devotion.
has caused damage to the environment.
1039 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good??
985 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? Support | Dispute | Clarify
Support | Dispute | Clarify ↓ Show Replies
 Euroscope1(90)  AuntieChrist(473)
1 point   1
I couldn't disagree more about religion being the Of course it has. I can't imagine how many millions of p
cause of evil, murder, etc. Human nature 101; The have suffered at the hands of those who have committed
scum bags will always invade that which can be crimes in the name of this or that god.
manipulated for money and power. You have low life
cops who become cops just so they can abuse the I will wait for the typical responses from religious apolo
power. Is law enforcement bad? No, the abuse and before saying anything else.
manipulation of law enforcement is bad. That is just 1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
one example. First of all every 'Bad' religious Support | Dispute | Clarify
incident from history such as the crusades was an ↑ Hide Replies
example of religious people doing what their religion  lawnman(1103) Disputed
tells them NOT to do! You're not supposed to kill
innocent people, priests are not supposed to rape
Of course it has. I can't imagine how many millions
boys according to Christianity. It's when people do
people have suffered at the hands of those who have
what their religion tells then NOT to do that
committed crimes in the name of this or that god.
infuriates people, i'm with you on that. But what
sense does it make to focus your blame on the If you can’t imagine how many millions of people have
religion that they ignored and violated? My other suffered because of ecclesiastical religion, then it stand
reason that I totally disagree with the 'religion causes reason you cannot also imagine the millions of people w
evil' arguement is because it is a one sided have benefitted because of that religion. Consequently y
arguement, it only views the negatives. How about have disqualified yourself from this debate because you
people who were assholes their whole life but then cannot quantify either side of the comparison of this de
they found God and did a total 180? What about ex- let alone the basic requirement of quantifying both side
cons who turn themselve around because of God? Or Furthermore, there is no factual data available for either
what about just your average person who has of this question; it is merely an exercise in bull-shitting
restrained him or herself from doing evil a thousand opinion under a transparent veil of falsely assumed evid
times because they have a 'God is watching' BTW, welcome to CD. Perhaps we’ll engage in a debat
conscious? I mean really, how many people do you 1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good??
know of who have killed in the name of God? Some
but not many. Now compare that to how many Support | Dispute | Clarify
people who have killed because they don't believe ↑ Hide Replies
their are any consequences in life if you don't get
caught? I'm not saying an athiest is more inclined to
kill but I am saying that religion has restrained
people from killing many times. The thing is that  aveskde(1882) Disputed
even though religion restrains a lot of people from
doing evil you'll never read that in the paper or in
history books. The 'Bad News' about religion will
always make the papers. Yes wars are started over
religion. But wars will always be started because 'My 1
view opposes your view.' If it ain't religion it's If you can’t imagine how many millions of people ha
money, or land, or oil, etc. America never went to suffered because of ecclesiastical religion, then it sta
war over the Bible but we still found ways to get into reason you cannot also imagine the millions of peopl
them. It's just that religious wars so happen to be have benefitted because of that religion. Consequent
between very religious countries. If they were secular have disqualified yourself from this debate because y
they'd be warring over something else trust that cannot quantify either side of the comparison of this
963 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? debate, let alone the basic requirement of quantifyin
Support | Dispute | Clarify sides.
 ssjacob(8)
He wasn't saying that he had no idea. He was saying tha
amount of people harmed by organised religion is imme
1 point  
uncountable.
I do agree that organized religion has done more
harm than good. Furthermore, there is no factual data available for e
side of this question; it is merely an exercise in bull-
However, it isn't the actual religions that cause it. It's
shitting one’s opinion under a transparent veil of fal
the people who claim they follow a certain religion
assumed evidence.
and yet they do bad things that the religion itself does
not teach. Of course there is. For example, Hitler's extermination
Jews is a measured affect of the consequences of exploi
In one way or another, all religions, whether
the Europeans' hatred of and distrust of Jews that has ex
Christianity, Islam or Hinduism (whatever it may
for generations, and was instilled by organised religion.
be), they all teach peace and other ethical teachings.
No one religion tells people to kill one another, or A contemporary example is the religious export machin
whatever it may be. is Saudi Arabia, a country with an oil industry that dwa
some of our wealthiest corporations, and the fact that th
http://www.rfpusa.org/
using that wealth to fund mosques and activists in the w
If you take a look at this site, on the bottom, you can that Wahhabism can grow in a culture that doesn't accep
look through each religion, and it shows you how backwards ideals of Sharia and misogyny.
each of them has peaceful teachings.
Then there's the Catholic church and the recent scandal
I'm talking especially about Islam, which nowadays allowed to come to light in which it actively helped cov
people feel is a dangerous and disastrous religion child molestations. This being only a tiny pip of the evi
after 9/11. True Muslims don't bomb one another. It the church has been behind, forgetting the rampant
is those who feel, in the name of their religion, misinformation it teaches to poor, undereducated Africa
should destroy others, particularly the West. In fact, nations, specifically that condoms are sinful and won't p
the word "Islam" is derived from an Arabic word the spread of HIV. Then we must remember that the ch
meaning "Peace." has been actively against the enlightenment, that it pers
912 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? intellectuals throughout the middle ages, that it would b
Support | Dispute | Clarify people for heresy, sold indulgences to people, and had i
 roosh(9) fingers in all of Europe's governments for centuries.
How about modern day Evangelism and the Born-again
0 points
movement that has married in with Creationism and Ch
organized religion refers to a group of people who
Reconstructionism in a campaign to undermine the scie
follow, practice and preach a common religion and
method and replace it with a mythology that holds the e
lay down some morals and ethics for themselves and
be 6000 years old, among other ridiculous bits of dogm
also in a way do good for society as well.
well-financed and loud is this movement that the genera
Religion provided a sort of moral compass, a code by American population thinks that there is no scientific
which people could live, by which actions could be consensus about evolution, it thinks that there is a
judged as good or bad. As human society came of controversy, and so forth. In other words, this movemen
age - escaping from the jungles and caves of our besides scamming people out of money for useless
ancestors - there was a need to control the reptilian, merchandise, has made the public a whole lot dumber a
animal brain, the tendency of "every man for easier to manipulate.
himself," the law of the jungle. I do believe religions
These are just some of the little things that are bad abou
provided some of that discipline and a moral
organised religion. I could go on for days about sectaria
imperative.There is the ten commandment, the koran,
violence, about massacres against Protestants by Cathol
laws of manu, etc. These are edicts of different
and vice versa, but I don't have the time or the space.
religions, meant to prevent chaos, murder, mayhem.
1039 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
Second, some religions, like Sikhism, came up in Support | Dispute | Clarify
response to great oppression and cruelty. Sikh ↓ Show Replies
religion was formed to defend people from the
atrocities of mughal rulers.  DaroArkan(1) Disputed
it doesn't matter to which God you are praying but
how about we look at this way, that He becomes a 1
Saviour of soul for many who pray to him everyday, well, so because something, in theory, created to help p
on whom many people's life depend, in a way it also is allowed to do immense harm, as stated several times
gives us the meaning of our being in the world. as long as it also helps people. This metaphor is probab
People need something to lean upon, a reason for quite flawed, but it's good enough for me: If you would
being, some place of comfort and solace. Religion about setting a village on fire, because fire warms the c
provides that a majority of people. While it's not real people on the street, even though countless people migh
medicine, it serves the purpose of a placebo. And we in their homes, would you do it. The fire helped people
all know that placebos work as well as the real thing. dying from the cold, but also burned people to death in
So, if religion does help even ONE person in leading process, so would it not be a better idea to set controlled
a better and happier life, it has served it's purpose. (like campfires) or to build shelters, if the purpose of th
1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? is to help people and to prevent harm.
Support | Dispute | Clarify 966 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
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 AuntieChrist(473) Disputed  james987(145)

3 points 1
So, if religion does help even ONE person in hummmmmmmmmmmm the crusades that killed hundr
leading a better and happier life, it has served it's thousands if not millions. the conquering of Africa and
purpose. attempted conquering if Europe by Islam........killed mil
While destroying countless others in the process? and the converting of the Americas by Spain killed mill
more. all sounds very very nice and there are many man
The idea that a depraved book of primitive savagery more examples through history. more people have been
for the deluded should serve as some sort of moral in the name of god than in the name of greed or power
compass is a tired idea that belongs in the dark ages. combined.
Morality is just another part of evolution. Behaviours 1028 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
that are considered "moral" have been adopted Support | Dispute | Clarify
simply because they are beneficial for survival.  Iblis(60)
There is the ten commandment, the koran, laws of 1
manu, etc. These are edicts of different religions, yes, christianity has caused the crusades, the spanish
meant to prevent chaos, murder, mayhem. inquisition, and countless deaths for witch craft and oth
If you take the Bible for example, you can clearly see bullshit lllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
that morality exists in spite of it, not because of it. 1027 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
If we were to look to the Bible for moral guidance, Support | Dispute | Clarify
we'd be forbidding women to speak (the Bible says
they are to remain silent and are not to teach, or have
authority over any man), killing our children for
being disobedient, stoning our daughters to death for
losing their virginity, forcing them to marry men
who rape them and sending them out to be gang
raped by angry mobs to protect our male dinner
guests; not to mention keeping slaves and beating
them to death (condoned in the Bible so long as they  firefox12345(1)
don't die right away) and "dashing babies to death on
rocks" because they happen to be the children of our
enemies.
Does this really sound to you like a book to be
consulted by anyone in search of morality?
1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
Support | Dispute | Clarify
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 ricedaragh(2415)
1
3 points
Of course! Christianity isn't the best! Christianity is ver
Also the main character in this novel decides on an
711 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
act of horribly gruesome phillicide or suicide to
Support | Dispute | Clarify
apparently free the people of the burden of sin which  LilDon(49)
he created in the first place. As if the excruciating
pain of one poor soul is meant to do anything but
show that corporal punishment is the right way to go, I was lost in the Darkest parts of my own wicked ways,
who is he trying to impress with this move? it must spiraling down a path of destruction leading me away fr
be himself, I don't imagine anyone (sane) that would His Almighty ways, and all the while im going down O
find the crucification of an innocent man to be ONE, He could save me. No matter how far i looked on
impressive. We are to believe that God is omniscient lowly planet, i never once found a soul who could mana
and omnipotent which means he knows all and is all show me the love that i truly needed, because on this pl
powerful so why did he start this shit train in the first aint nothing but hate and contempt have been breeded.
place, he set in motion the process by which he lowly snake slithering as he goes through the towns of m
would be killed by the very people he created and put looking for lowly lowly souls, to feed on so that it could
in the center of his universe. it's evil seeds, and so that throughout the generations no
I know this is straying from the topic a bit so I would but evil and hate we could recieve, but those where the
like to add that organized religion does give hope to of the past, my brothers and sisters. the devil had a hold
people but at the price of their humanity. and he managed through our parents, down through the
1040 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Bad?
generations His ways have been lost, and because of the
Support | Dispute | Clarify the devil has turned and tossed, We can All be saved, al
 Euroscope1(90) Disputed need is Thanksgiving, to the One who Above, for All o
Givings. The devils trying to stop me right now as i spe
1 point  Faithful to the Lord and willit He, that i may be meek.
You are straight up bitter towards religion. It's Because it is He not i that gives you this message but it
absolutely ridiculous to not see the point of the One that we All should seek. i know that it is hard to fin
poster. For the love of God give credit where credit isRest, as we all go through this test some call a game, ev
due. "Destroyed countless others" What are you single last one of us, probably, training to gain and reta
talking about the crusades or something? Religion fame. But That is not what this life is about, i have a Str
haters can't get off that subject, the guy is talking feeling that we are All getting our Water from the wron
about how it's an absolute FACT that religion helps wrong spout. because thats all the devil has for us is a li
millions relieve stress, feel good, act better, etc. And bit, of pleasure, then comes the pain. steady feeding our
you come back at him with a speech about the bodies what i see now Is Insane. because ya'll hafto see
countless others slain in the religions wars of the we are all carnally minded, and This is the reason The L
dark ages lol. It's real simple, religion is good when itus he has blinded, binding, ourselves to our own flesh, s
is used properly. And like EVERYTHING else in eventually we would All fail this Test. but know that Th
life religion is a total scam that harms people when Lord, He loves us, and wishes nothing but the best, and
it's corrupted by scum bags who want to use people. wants is for us to Love Him all the while through this T
Religion is dear to people, you better believe the some wonder why we see nadoes and quakes, He needs
snakes will use that to their advantage. But that's true to know that its Ya'lls souls that He is trying to shake. a
for everything. Religion that hasn't been corrupted is bake if you will, so the devil may not have his fill, to
a good thing religion that has been corrupted sucks! letchya'll know that there is NONE like that ALMIGHT
960 days ago | Side: Is organized religion Good?? AND ALL POWERFULL ONE. i say full because Hes
Support | Dispute | Clarify with Love, like None that we have seen on this lowly ea
↓ Show Replies but now that i have SEEN, my Eyes have been UnBlind
and now it is He, He who signs this, letter so maybe tha
Add New Argument of Ya'll could listen, and Maybe get the Message that H
trying to dish, out of His spout, so that ya'll might be fe
all of His Love, His Water, And His Bread. Don't for a
think any of Ya'll are living, All of ya'll are dead and fo
devil are you "living" as i sit here and do this all of the
"dome" just know that it is Not me and that this is His t
He is singing through me in these words and this song,
maybe one day we All can be free all the day long, and
can say its cheesy if ya'll want, but just know the devil
he does flaunt x) i had to stop and show ya'll how i felt
that one, cuz its the truth, and right now i have a Strong
feeling He is swinging harder than that brother Babe Ru
ballin harder than micheal jordan, and in this song he Is
Playing His Accordian. Ya'll just need to know that He
Guardian, and right now im flying Higher than any sing
jordan, because my love i gave to Him more than any o
so i guess i can say more than them. But dont getit twiz
like boi's if ya'll know, that me and moreover Him, hav
to show. we are all brothers and sisters, but i should cal
missers, because we all fail to see the smaller things in
world, without even thinking twice, what truly brings a
alot of happiness or to see the pain that ALOT of us hav
us. i know that we are all hurting on the inside, and for
who say we dont, Boi, you know that is a lie, because o
with Him and not that evil leech from down south, can
truly fly. higher than the highest of trees or the tallest o
mountains, But in Him we Have to trust, so that We ma
Drink From The One and Only True fountain, only bec
Him can i do this for days, and its Because i gave Him
love, thanksgiving, and praise. so now that i have seen w
is truly to be Man, Men of God, all these hater out there
bout to say something aint nuthing more than sod. sorry
dont make sense, just know that me and Him the latter f
We are just trying to give His children, ya'll some moth
lovin cents. forgive me if i pause for no longer am i a v
man life is just a beach, and Now, He is playing in the s
hopefully in the minds of the young, the daughters and
have my holster, and now the Lord is my Gun, Shining
Brighter, than a million suns, times two, because His lo
True, actually make that twenty twenty, because He is
aplenty, in me in you and All, i just hope that ya'll can h
His call, so that maybe that ya'll may not fall, into the P
right now i can say the devil is probably having a fit, of
anxiety cuz he is losing his "children" just know that w
God's and with me He has been pilfering, in my mind d
night, as i have been in my room trying to stay out of si
ya'll because all it seems like to me, that nothing to ya'l
would please, more, than to see one of your own fellow
brother get shot and fall. when i look around me i dont
any real love, this evil surrounds me, but Now i DO NO
CARE, because the Lord, THE LORD, HE has found m
now ya'll cannot touch, because with His love, im abou
bust. with loving Faith and Trust, i put in Him, so that i
led away from this life of sin, and Now that i have His T
my brotha's and sista's, not just the black ones, comeon
that just is not a must, there is no such thing man, all th
nothing more than an evil thought, brought up in vain, s
maybe a man's soul, that leech, can be bought. Quit bei
for it is Love, that should be sought, out so once again w
may be fed from His Spout, for only He can give us wh
need so that in the end we may succeed. my brothers an
sisters all we need to do is Believe, and then, Anything,
together, WE CAN ACHIEVE. this is an ode to ya'll so
hopes once again that ya'll may hear The Call, and will
fall, so one day me, ya'll, and The Almighty,Perfect, lik
prefect without the er, Omnipotent, and Patient ONE, th
together we May All Ball. and they keep telling me to s
but i just cant my brothers me and Him are headed to th
and right now i got The Heart Of A Lion, King, and pra
me my brothers and sisters who are reading, what singl
can stop that king? of the jungle we are running but wit
we can be free. out into the open pasture we all can roam
know this is not me, and that this is His Tomb. its wierd
they're spelled alike but do not rhyme, im talking bout b
my brothers, and its One of a Kind. in the Hopes that th
petty rhyme, can help lead the black sheep, away from
Blind, being themselves, for who? tell me can save them
that? if you dont answer right then your a part of this bl
that runs rampant through the streets, evil im talking ab
and all it wants to do is eat, your souls because it is ang
the Living God, hahahaha for it is nothing more than a
His Cleat as He is Running, Hoping that some of these
hit you right in the stomach, and make you sick, but not
im talking about the evil you, for we are all children of
but we have made ourselves nothing more than a sod =(
with a heavy heart, because all this time we have been p
the devil, his part, but with Him it is nothing but a fart,
because He Forgives, and Only Through Him may we E
get the chance to Live, and im not talking about on the
im talking about another, and maybe one day you can s
i can Truly call you my Brother, for there is Life in Dea
it is only gained through this life which is a test, just kn
that when we die, if you have lived righteously, on that
you will Fly, for the Lord will Breathe His Breath in yo
when you die and like i said before You Will Fly, but n
you keep eating from the devil's table, for you can only
from one, and i hope its Not the devil's table. for if we E
from Him, we can All go back into His Stable, and only
doing that can we Ever truly be stable, only only if, we
eating from, The Living God's Table. and for ya'll who
sitting at your computers steadily dissin Him, i pray for
because it you are missin, Him and the bigger picture, j
know right now im taking a Big Gulp From His Ultima
Pitcher, not one from the MLB, and if you are listening
pray that you sea, i mean see, but with Him we can fly o
the one before, and higher than mike, dunk it in, right fo
score, but not for 2 for it is for 3, because He is Holy in
but atm holy in you, because you missing some parts, w
need to change, so that we may play His Part, that He
intended from the Beginning, because only With Him c
ever be winning, but hahahaha not as long as we are sin
for that is not the way that we was meant to walk, With
we was mean to Walk and Talk. once again i say this w
used to, but we choose to live, is insane in the membran
He is using me as His Template, lol or templar whichev
prefer, just know that He is Prefect, ha just without the
as i sit here steadily dissin em i mean the demons in the
of the children of the One and Only, God Who Is Kind,
that they depart, so we can All gaze upon The Divine, n
wine or watch, i aint lil wayne, just know that i feel like
the only one who is sane. because i AM NOT PERFEC
not get the wrong message for that would hurt me, only
and He just wants some love from His Kids, but for som
reason... we still choose to do the evil leeches bids, for
he has sucked to much from us, all of our blood, i mean
it has tucked from us, and right now He is aiming at it w
Big Ol' Blunderbuss. to shoot it and unleech it, from Hi
Children's Soul's so one day maybe we can gaze upon,
Wonderful City Of Gold, and dont letit peak your in ter
for if you do your not getting whats bests, from this test
He has beset, for our minds to ponder and think on, may
some of the hearts out there this message is shining, for
a Beacon of Light, to shine out all the evils, and end thi
hateful blight, that courses through our vains, that nasty
garbage that makes us feel insane, because no one is liv
right, and for That NONE is sane. you can talk and sit t
and chatter, but i pray and hope that none get fatter, and
not talking because of mcdonalds, im talking about you
and pride, because We Alll NEED to push that aside, al
seem to do is breed hate and contempt, sitting there loo
for another hurt sould to feed on, thinking it makes us c
but just know NOW people, lolol all your doing is lettin
devil be your PIMP! ha ha ha i think that really funny,
because in the words of man that just makes ya'll some
and please forgive my trespasses my sisters and brother
my vulgar words, because i Did Not mean to hurt, He's
trying to keep our faces from being rubbed in the dirt. b
really shouldnt matter because we are mud, and from O
all came, so can i not call ya'll blood??? nah im not talk
about them two glock shotta's, im talking bout from Th
Who Has Always Got Us, not us as in the navy, i mean
in the ones who might sit on that bus, the one going to s
and to the ones who drool in class, and all of us who ne
kick in the, pause, ya'll know what i mean, im just sittin
trying not be obscene, all im trying to do is get the bigg
picture, through ya'll minds so that maybe one day, we
WALK IN THE LORDS WAY. forgive me if i make an
ya'll mad, if i do know that i Am sad, but how about ya
go to the store and go and grab on of them happy hefty
you know i meant glad if you didnt you are simple, and
forgive me as i sit here and bust this pimple, lol sorry th
nasty just know that i didnt, and know that we are all fa
and its time for some rhino plasty, or however its spelle
just hoping some hearts will melt, like the plastic we ar
become melded into flesh, as i sit here and type in this S
Food test, for if ya'll can't hear me then your hearts are
cold, forgive me as i trespass, because, uhm, i Am not t
to be bold, im just tryna through some fia atcha hearts,
hopes that you may leave the Dark, ness not loch just in
thats watchu thought, all you gotta do is leave your fles
behind, and know that He is the one who Should Be So
out so we can drank From His Spout, cuz the Lord Kno
man it has been a drought. we are all so thirsty, but in o
be filled its The Lord who must come firsty x) just know
me and Him are going Stooopid, and for those who are
maaan i thoughtchu knew it. and if you dont i pray you
haven't already blew it, up i mean your ego, like a ballo
just know right now i feel like taz boi, yup them looney
toones, or tunes whichever you prefer, just know that H
Prefect, just without the err. and i say pre because He w
always here, yes before you and me, but with Him i wa
letchu know that we can all be as pure, and as white as
snow, just like powder we can all be melted, i mean me
into the beings we were meant to be, so one day we ma
free as a dove, Right over the sea, so that we all can rea
New Jerusalem, yup just right where we was all meant
that is the Golden City for those who did not, know, im
hoping that one day we can All be as pure as the snow,
because the evil has taunted and flaunted and given us a
to peak i mean perk up our ears and it, that leech i mean
us nothing but fears, fears of ourselves and one another
from our sisters and daughter, Father, and brothers, but
have a right to Fear the Living God, because to Him we
all become a sod, He is sorrowful and cries as we follow
evil being, who was never meant to be followed, and i f
pain at one point in time, yes i Am talking About the D
we both cried together, in my room, because of the little
things we miss, something just as small as, a heartfelt k
for it is the little things that bring us the greatest joy, no
diamond chain, or a, wind up toy, the biggest thing of a
should, is His Love, should bring us the Greatest joy, in
world, for thats all it is man just cars and noise, all the l
going our way, Missing the sweetest noise, zes ya'll kno
what i mean, im talking about the One who is Never ob
for He is Just And Right, in each and every single way,
for our sins my borhters and sisters, we have to pay, bu
not fret for it is never to late, I think we all need to call
The Divine, and we should All go on a date, do not wor
on this date there is no rape, or murder, or hate, for that
the devil, and Your Soul it will take, there is no worries
you follow Him, we should all be hand in hand as we w
down this path, called, life Never having to worry abou
pain or strife, or for a bigger picture His Wrath, but ON
WE DRINK FROM HIS PITCHER. for The All Power
Righteous Wrath, only comes when you stray from His
it is there to show us our wrongs...can you feel His Sou
sit here and Sing His song? and with Him i will NEVER
because with my Brother, I will always Hear His Call. i
we but it is Him, who say these words to in the hopes, t
those who have an Ear to listen may never Fall, into the
all you have to do is have Faith, Follow The Ten, Belie
never EVER Quit, for in order to gain His All Perfect a
Good Graces, we have to eliminate ALL the Hate and e
all sorts of places, i have a feeling this song was wrote l
before, just in His mind and now in mine, and i sing Hi
in the Hopes, that you follow Him and not any of these
"popes" for no hope lies in them, lol and if you truly thi
aboutit that actually rhymed, just know that im thinking
Him, foremost, but ya'll too as i steadily write This Rhy
comes from above yup, Straight From the Divine, in the
Hopes that one day ya'll can SEE, exactly it was that we
missing, so we can All fly over the sea. Man this thing
but i should Say God, because this is His Rhyme, and n
from a sod, like me or you, if you real you can feel its T
His Sword aims at the hearts of His good, flying Straigh
Through, lol i mean True, but them if you can follow m
friend, all we gotta do is sing Praises and Thanksgiving
Him, until the very end, and give Him all of our love, B
WITHOUT HIM, ha There WOULD BE NO LOVE, al
would be is pain and suffering, and i hope that the ones
are, suffer, i mean acating, Might actually stop and take
time to sit there and be debating, against the devil of co
cuz all it wants to do is, lead us, right, or left, but straig
our course. Lord Please Forgive me, if i am being coars
know that i am your back, and You Are My Horse, lol y
might think He's heavy but He's really not, and i Love H
Death, i mean Life, cuz i have found It, but back to the
because i HE HAS TAUGHT, never went to church or
of that, maybe when i was younger but none of that, for
minds our are churches, ha gotit backwards but i feel as
the burches, talking bout them trees man im over the se
man, just know i cant, wait, My Father, until You Kick
My Can Man x) aw man i thoughit was funny, because
One Cool Dude, and i am His, Bunny, i mean Collie, an
know that as i, i mean He, but as i bark, that i have a St
feeling, that i am playing my Part, or His i prefer the lat
the choice is yurs, because it is His Puzzle, and i am the
part, i cant be for certain because the Knowledge is His
im just trying to bring His Black Sheep back, you know
mean His KIDS, He thoughtit was funny, But ya'll best
Believe that He NOR i the first comes first, but neither
us is No, pause, Dummy, lol but if you choose you can
and bite, whatever you do just know it is out of spite, an
dont capitilize because its an evil word, just know me a
HIM, are trying to end this wrongful blight, and saying
words i Hope that maybe, just maybe some can be give
Sight, that HE intended us to have, right, from Go, talki
bout monopoly,lol but no no more, from the start maaaa
HE ever wanted was us to give our heart, which is HIS,
because He gave to us, All that is HIS, HE just Wanted
someone to talk to man, thats why HE made HIS Kids,
was all alone, and then HE built, a Beautiful place for u
HIM, to walk and talk all the while, just laughing and ta
seeing eachother smile =) because HE is our FATHER,
not as mean ha as ya'll would believe, just know that HE
TRULY IS ONE BENEVOLENT KING. lol ha ha i thi
is funny, He knows what im talking about, cuz this is al
the top of the dome with barely a second to pause, Just
the THE LION KING, Has Opened HIS Claws, Blessed
the children who took the time to listen, to the message
and The King is steadily dishin, i say a because i am on
but know that im a servant, and from a Seed i did Grew
care if it makes no sense to ya'll because i have heard th
Lords Call, and they, they know who they are, are alwa
listening, and as He types, through, me i have a feeling
are about to call, Prayer is the Best Wireless Connectio
aint no service down here got that type of Connection, i
hope that i get to see some of ya'll at that intersection, i
Crossroads, bone thugz n harmony, they said it first, ma
the song man and if you feel their soul, then maybe you
 should hurt, because those bois on the streets back in th
all they was doing was searching for some Peace, but in
streets, the oppressors, following the devil, have no lov
us in the slums, just know that we All have a Holster an
Is our Gun, we dont need no metal, for The Lord our iss
HE will settle, all you gotta do is Have some Faith, sayi
in hope that some dont see any wraiths, talking demons
people come now and please listen, as the Lord spits his
and these Words HE is dishin, out yup you getting it wo
mouf, lol or mouth whichever you prefer just DONT fo
that lowly snake, yup the one down south, it might try a
offer pleasure and happiness butits all fake, HA what do
expect from a lowly snake? remeber eve as she sat unde
tree? sitting there thinking and feeling the breeze? the s
spoke in her Ear temptation it did bring, and after teel m
WHO did she fear? she had a split second of happiness
thats all it can give, and after that she felt the WRATH
is ONLY HIS, lol i hope that ya'll see, the way we live
it just wasn't meant to be, i have a feeling that there all
there laughing, with, not at me as i type out His messag
i pray ALMIGHTY FATHER, THE ONES WHO HAV
EAR TO LISTEN PLEASE FATHER PLEASE LET T
HEAR. and the ones who dont i pray you dont hit him h
maybe just a little tap, just like Babe Ruth, on that base
card x) Peace be with you my sisters and brothers, just
that HIS LOVE IS LIKE NO OTHER, GOD BLESS A
WHO FINISHED, AND I PRAY YOUR SOULS NEV
DIMINISH. ONE HEART IS ALL, AND WITH THAT
HEART WE CAN NEVER FALL, lol i said i was finis
but i dont think HE is as you can tell this words are not
THEY COME FROM THE UPPER BEING, yup THE
DIVINE!!! i think im going to cut Him short and please
Forgive me, because i know HE could go all day, BECA
I CAN FEEL HIM IN ME.

Pro
Once again, I have no doubts nor do I question the idea that suicide
bombings occur outside of a religious context. Human sacrifice is
done outside the realm of a religious context consistently on the
battlefield. However once again I feel I need to remind you that none
of these are CAUSED by a lack of religion. Acts of human nature such
as honour, generosity, and violence are unavoidable and I wouldn't
be arguing for a second that a world without religion would not have
violence. However only religion explicitly causes violent acts in people
who would otherwise be harmless. I've been through the examples
several times but to make a point let me remind you that the 19
hijackers on September 11 would not have sacrificed their lives, nor
would they have willingly and knowingly killed nearly three thousand
people if they weren't religious. The idea of Asymmetrical warfare
being linked to secular ideas frankly doesn't make much sense in
terms of the fact that no secular idea has ever CAUSED a war. No
war has ever been fought in the name of atheism.

The point that the 'morality' from religion is made by the

priest/rabbi/imam is infact a point for religion not really being the
cause of the morality. As demonstrated through extracts of the Bible
and the Quaran, if read objectively, these texts are far from pillars of
moral and ethical behaviour. The 'ethics' extracted by the
priest/rabbi/imam are nothing but bastardised versions of the true
texts (of which the so called 'extremists' take literally). You seem to
be somehow suggesting that this morality can only come from
religion, however the contrary is true.
We see time and time again that one does not need religion to be
moral, starting off simply in nature, it is easy to see animals such as
koalas sharing some food, or monkey mothers defending their young,
these basic moral acts aren't those of religion (to the best of my
knowledge, animals aren't religious). Not only in nature but in real
life, as I've said there is no correlation whatsoever between being
religious and moral behaviour. No such empirically tested study exists
which demonstrates that atheists are on average less moral than
those who follow a religion.
Infact the opposite might be true, especially in the USA where
atheists make up 14% of the population and yet only 0.209% of the
prison population (according to the Federal Bureau of
Prisons http://www.holysmoke.org...) conversely, this means that
99.791% of inmates who answered the poll were religious. Now, I
am aware that this alone doesn't prove that atheists are more moral
than people who are religious however that is not what this debate is
about and that is not what I am trying to show. I'm simply
demonstrating that the idea that atheists are somehow less moral
than people of religion is short sighted at best. Once again I do have
to question your comparison of states and religion because that is
not what I'm talking about at all, irreligion/atheism is in no way tied
into the role of government/state.

Well first off, the separation of chruch and state is not intended for
the promotion of free religion. If I am correct in assuming that you
are reffering to the USA, this right is granted by your Bill of rights
and the clause of free practice of religion and speech. This specifies
that no religion is superior to another but also, no religion is inferior
to another one. This allows anyone to practice morality in anyway
they want to, as long as within the realm of the law. Your idea of
social nihilism being spawned through the modern interpretation of
the separation of church and state seems to be based around your
opinion and nothing else. If you are indeed referring to the current
climate of the USA (Where I presume you are from), let me remind
you of a few quotes from your current commander-in-chief.

"Americans do not presume to equate God's purposes with any

purpose of our own...."[Prayer] teaches us to trust, to accept that
God's plan unfolds in his time, not our own." Washington Post, May
7, 2004

"...Freedom is not America's gift to the world, freedom is the

almighty God's gift to each man and woman in this world."Speech in
Pennsylvania, October 22, 2004

You talk of separation of church and state, however it seems your

current president is having a bit of difficulty himself in maintaining
this.

Going onto talking about fertility rates, I've got a few problems with
this.

A) You've provided no empirical sources for the information that

'fertility is higher amongst religious people'.

B) Problems arise yet again from the 'morality' of roman catholicism

spreading AIDS throughout Africa with their refusal to endorse the
use of condoms. Africa being one of the most religious regions on
earth, relies heavily on the teachings and advice of their religious
leaders. When someone like the Pope forbids the use of
contraception, this does nothing but spread the sexually transmitted
disease to become one of the biggest epidemics since the black
plaque.

C) Contrary to what you say, the fertility rate among Americans has
climbed to its highest level since 1971. (http://www.usatoday.com...)

If this wasn't enough, the UK has hit its highest fertility rate since
1980. (http://www.guardian.co.uk...)
If you desire one more, then Australia's birth rate is the highest it has
been in 36 years. (http://www.theage.com.au...)

All this seems to put a gaping hole in your argument that the 'nihilist
nature of society' is somehow promoting 'low birth rates'. If you
somehow attribute this clear rise in birth to religious reasons then I
ask you to provide clear evidence of this, and retract your statement
about nihilism being spawned through the lack of religion. Because it
seems clear from this that the west is producing more babies than
ever.

To sum up my arguements, I've put forward that 'religion does more

harm than good'. What I have demonstrated is that:

Physically, religion is a direct cause of harm, evident in the

innumerable events of religious wars, and acts of terrorism and
murder which would not have happened if there were not religion.

Mentally, the concept of faith is very dangerous and is always wrong

to teach a child to believe in something without sufficent evidence.
I've also demonstrated that those who lack religion are not more
likely to commit crime or are nor in any way less moral than those
with religion.

The good done by religious groups are not directly caused by their
faith in the way that terrorist acts are. It is very likely that the people
working for groups such as the Salvation Army would not be immoral
if they were not religious (and indeed, there are many secular
humanitarian groups such as Amnesty International).
I thank you for the debate.
Report this Argument

Con
None of the three points made in the last posts' conclusion proves
religions do more harm than good.

The first point: It has not been proven that, like states, religion uses
force in a net negative fashion. While religion is used as a
justification, it does not mean it is net negative or even negative at
all. Replace 'religion' with 'freedom' and you come to the same point.

I attempted to prove above that people do act on 'faith' all the time.
No one contemplates every action they make. They take a leap of
'faith' in most of their actions. It was never argued that people who
ascribe to a different philosophy is 'less moral'.

In the last point, it was never argued non religious organizations do

positive things. What was argued was that religions promote
succesful family formation and reproduction. I will spend the rest of
my post to display some of the mountain of evidence proving this
final point.

http://www.washingtonpost.com...
"Fertility correlates strongly with religious conviction. In the United
States, fully 47 percent of people who attend church weekly say that
their ideal family size is three or more children. By contrast, only 27
percent of those who seldom attend church want that many kids."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...
"It turns out that the European countries have generally lower
fertility than could be expected from their socioeconomic standing. In
the Arab countries, culture and religion tend to have strong positive
effects on fertility. Across cultures, Catholicism has a fertility-
increasing effect but it--like the effect of all religions except Islam--is
diminishing over time. In contrast, the effect of culture (as measured
by a regional variable) on the level of national fertility has been
increasing at the expense of socioeconomic effects."

http://papers.ssrn.com...
"Since the onset of democracy in 1975, both total fertility and Mass
attendance rates in Spain
have dropped dramatically."

"Even if rates of church participation have decreased

dramatically,religiosity has acquired a more relevant meaning than
before in terms of its implications for
demographic behavior. Second, individuals in small denominations
such as Muslims and
Conservative protestants within an, otherwise, homogeneous
religious landscape are likely
committed to their pronatalist affiliation and have more children on
average."

http://www.oeaw.ac.at...

"Secularisation was a necessary condition for the rise in

individualisation as it
brought about a release of the norms and restrictions that originated
in rules and
rites set by the churches. As secularisation continues the Christian
churches are
less and less capable of influencing people's behaviour (van de Kaa
1999: 42) and
religion can, as a consequence, be disregarded."
During the recent decades secularisation has been a topic of debate
among
researchers of sociology of religion. Where Europe is concerned, the
decline in
the influence of the churches is rarely disputed, unlike the decline in
religiosity
not bound to an institution"
We found that in most of the countries affiliated people have higher
fertility
ideals, higher odds of intending to have another child and a higher
number of
expected children than non-affiliated persons."

http://www.demographic-research.org...
"This substantially positive effect of religious
beliefs on fertility must have something to do with the role of religion
in guiding human
behavior in terms of the issues of sexuality, cohabitation, marriage,
and the function of
family. In general, a number of religious doctrines are linked to
delayed sexual debut
and entry into cohabitation, and more positive attitudes toward
entering marital unions
and having children (Bearman and Bruckner 2001; Lehrer 2004;
Marchena and Waite
2001). As stated earlier in this article, Catholicism encourages large
family size and is
strongly against abortion. The Mormon theology emphasizes the
central role of the
family in the religious community. Both Protestants and Mormons
have incentives to
marry early and are oriented to home-based activities. As a result,
deeming such
religious beliefs important in daily life makes people more likely to
internalize their
church teachings and thus to favor a large family size. This perhaps
explains why
religiosity is influential in terms of both male and female fertility.

In sum, religion is a very important institution spreading behavioral

norms and
providing social support for people. My analyses reveal that the
fertility gap among
religious groups is decreasing, whereas religiosity, especially religious
beliefs,
demonstrates a significantly positive effect on fertility. Women do not
exhibit a
substantially greater likelihood of being influenced by either religious
denomination or
by religiosity than men. Thus, religion does not seem to be a factor
that differentiates
male and female fertility among the U.S. religious population."

http://www.amazon.com...
"Although most parts of Europe and North America saw a substantial decline in fertility
from the later nineteenth century, the extent and pace of decline varied between and
within countries. Many observers have seen religion as a major reason for these
differences, but the link between religion and levels of fertility has often been explained
in a crude and over-generalised way. This collection of case-studies reveals a much more
complex and varied picture. Religion was indeed a key factor, but it did not operate in
any neatly predictable way."