Fundação João Pinheiro

Escola de Governo Paulo Neves de Carvalho

Curso Superior de Administração Pública

CSAP
Projeto OPP EBOOK Ano 2022 Semestre 1ºSemestre/22
Professores Dra. Carla Bronzo e Dr. Bruno
Atividade Transcrição da entrevista Stavros Stavrides
Aluno Diogo Oliveira

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfYVRgjzfDc

STAVROS
3:35
thank you very much hernandez thank you very much giberto for this uh  
3:40
opportunity and thanks everybody for the from the observatory i know that
you're doing a great  
3:48
work in brazil and of course it's one of my beloved countries   i've been several
times in brazil and  i really enjoy the place the people 
3:58
and of course the struggle uh my  attempt today is to present to you 
4:04
some of my uh thoughts and my  um research findings if i may 
4:10
concerning a certain approach to the idea of  the commons and especially the
urban commons 
4:16
because of course as you  all understand this is not 
4:21
an area of discussion on which  everybody agrees so i have to somehow 
4:26
introduce my point of entry and  also my attempt to expand this 
4:33
entrance in order to make it possible  for activist practices to enter and learn 
4:40
new things and offer new things  therefore my initial initial remarks 
4:46
have to do with what do i mean by the idea  of commons i don't mean things i
don't mean 
4:53
specific services and i don't  mean resources i actually mean 
4:59
social relations that is relations under  which a specific society or community 
5:05
defines what it needs to share what  is to be shared among among its 
5:11
members and we will soon see that this  is crucial for the very construction 
5:16
constitution of this this community and  how which is very important the rules 
5:22
under what conditions there is a split there  i think in the international
discussion 
5:28
between those who follow let's say the ostrom  root famous economist who was
awarded the 
5:35
nobel prize for her contribution  to the idea of a commons 
5:42
and on the other side between  those who are actually 
5:49
in a way understanding the  commons as a road towards 
5:55
human and social emancipation let us recall that  for ostrom it is important there
is an important 
6:02
thing for the guarantee of  the practices of commons 
6:08
which is a stable community  and a stable set of rules 
6:14
in these rules admittedly she finds that have  to be quite distinct from the rules
imposed by 
6:22
either the state or the market so  for here the commons is a kind of 
6:28
third area of transaction and  social relations that has to do with 
6:34
rules that define a certain  functioning of a certain community 
6:41
and most important is that  she understands this practice 
6:47
as building certain boundaries around this  community which is which are
essential 
6:52
for the preservation and the sustainability of  the commons as he explicitly says
in the happening 
6:59
of the commons the well-known book my  approach aligns with people who talk
about the 
7:05
commons as not one more sector within  capitalism but actually as a form 
7:13
of social relations as a  practice of social organization 
7:18
that in a way gestures thoughts  beyond capitalism therefore 
7:24
i put an emphasis on both rethinking the idea  of resources rethinking the idea
of rules and 
7:31
rethinking as you will soon see the idea  of community of commoners those who
common 
7:37
first of all resources as  i said before this is not 
7:43
things these are relations therefore  we need to see them as dynamics 
7:49
as conditions that take time  that unfold as processes 
7:55
and thus define ways of dealing for example the water is not a common good in
this  
8:03
approach the water becomes an issue of commoning using the verb at the
moment in which a specific 
8:14
context a specific social context  defines water as necessary 
8:19
defines the distribution of water under  specific conditions therefore water is 
8:25
not anymore a natural substance it's a  substance that has to do with social
relations  
8:30
a rural society will talk differently   about water than an urban  society and so on
and so forth 
8:39
rules i believe that a crucial contribution  of those who think that the
commoning 
8:45
process is potentially an emancipatory  process is the idea that rules should be 
8:51
made by those who actually participate the  commoning process and not by an
outside 
8:57
body who kind of produces institutions and under  those institutions guarantees
the subsistence 
9:05
and sustainability of commons so  rules should be a process themselves 
9:11
a work in the making which is always involving 
9:17
those who actually participate in the commoning  processes and last but not
least and we will talk 
9:23
a bit more about it we're not talking about  closed communities we're not talking
about 
9:29
stable communities who can within their  themselves define rules of sharing 
9:36
because no matter how democratic  such a community might be 
9:42
at the moment in which eating by  its definition excludes others 
9:48
it somehow limits the practices of  commoning within a certain social enclosure 
9:54
and within enclosure this is my major  conviction closing sorry commoning dies 
10:01
so commoning can survive only  by expanding of course provided 
10:06
that newcomers would accept the  conditions of finding a common ground 
10:12
and developing rules of sharing  based on mutuality and and equality 
10:17
therefore we can talk about emergent  communities about potential
communities 
10:24
that are building through a collective  creativity through forms of collective
creativity 
10:30
a kind of autonomy a highly contested  world what is autonomy autonomy is not 
10:37
what it might seem like the autonomy of an  individual who is completely
independent from its 
10:44
surrounding no autonomy is actually exactly the  opposite it's the way through
which a community 
10:50
develops itself by devising its own  rules and by remaining at the same time 
10:57
open to the potentialities of newcomers   so it's a community which actually
builds itself in the making creates  
11:06
itself sustains itself as a work in progress and this community indeed accepts
not simply the 
11:16
repetition of existing traditions the  repetition of existing habits but indeed 
11:21
the exploration the continuous  reinvention of habits in the 
11:27
process of developing a form of  self-government so in the end 
11:35
autonomy defines what i would briefly describe as the commoning of power  
11:43
as a process through which we continuously as commoners develop means
through which we 
11:52
discourage control prohibit  any accumulation of power 
11:57
in the process of developing ever new  forms of sharing under the rules of 
12:03
mutuality and solidarity co-producers call co-interpreters of laws call
laboratories  
12:13
in the process of defining what is to be shared and how  
12:20
importantly this idea of emergent community this idea of community in the
making this idea  
12:26
of autonomous community can learn a lot from communities that were not only
part of the  
12:33
tradition of the western let's say mentality throughout the world and i i was lucky
to  
12:39
be able to get in contact with such  communities throughout the world there  are
communities which were actually  defining themselves in different ways 
12:48
and especially because we are going to talk  about the city they were defining
themselves  
12:54
in terms of relation to their territory in different ways   for example as you
probably as most of you probably know there are communities who  
13:04
understand themselves through the cosmo vision of buen vivir  
13:09
especially in the andean countries in  latin america this conformation does not 
simply describe a closed system within  which a community understands itself it 
13:19
actually defines an open system an  inclusive system which at the same time 
13:25
understands the relation with the territory  on which this community actually
develops 
13:32
exists as a relation which  is a relation of mutuality 
13:38
and a relation of co-production  this is important this is important 
13:43
because it shows us a way out of this  kind of not only western but basically 
13:49
western understanding of the relation with  space either natural space rural
space or 
13:56
urban space as a relation  which is based on jurisdiction 
14:02
ownership this is our space this  is the space that we need to 
14:09
stay and govern ourselves by staying there in bambivir mentality community is
more  
14:18
like a tender of the territory let us please keep this beautiful idea what does it  
14:24
mean to be a tender of territory it's not simply using the territory  
14:30
either urban or rural as a container on which society or community develops  
14:37
it's using the territory as a kind of mutual creativity as a kind of mutual creation  
14:44
as a kind of mutual reenactment it's a beautiful phrase by arturo excobar which
says that  
14:51
a community's territory is to be understood as a system of relations   whose
continuous reenactment please observe the word reenactment  
15:00
recreates the community in question so reenactment and recreation a work in
progress 
15:08
let us then think about communities that are meant to produce this kind of
commoning which always  
15:17
expands beyond any potential and closure as communities that can be  
15:23
described as open communities of commoners as emergent communities   of
commoners as communities of practice as somebody else has suggested or as
communities  
15:34
of reference as the neapolitan movement has defined them in  
15:42
the struggle for the preservation and the sustainers of urban commons in
napoli  
15:48
and here i would like to take the opportunity to talk a bit more about it   because
in napoli in italy there has been a very beautiful and interesting experience  
15:59
in which initially produced occupied spaces especially for culture and public
use 
16:09
an initial action that was  actually the occupation of those  
16:14
abandoned places and used in favor of the community and the city   this
evolved to a kind of agreement with an enlightened if you want uh municipal
authority  
16:28
that has given them the opportunity to govern themselves these urban
commons as  
16:35
they agreed to define them and at the same time to use them as a kind of  
16:42
springboard if you want for the city to engage in a culture of commoning  
16:49
so what they called as communities of reference were actually tenders  
16:54
of urban commons not users only neither of course owners tenders  
17:01
means that we they were in charge of taking care   of ensuring that those areas
of urban commoning would remain open to the city  
17:13
provided that they would exclude and this is explicitly stated in in their
agreements  
17:19
provided that they would actually exclude sexist racist and faces fascist
behaviors 
17:27
apart from this anyone is potentially  included as long as he or she accepts 
17:34
the rules under which the urban  commons are sustained and promoted 
17:40
we have interesting very very interesting  examples in napoli of such buildings
there there 
17:45
are huge buildings in in many  cases which evolved to uh 
17:50
to uh cultural centers open to to the city   completely self-managed with specific
rules under which a general assembly  
18:01
in a way institutes itself keeps on instituting itself because this is a process  
18:07
open to discussion and to deliberation and to newcomers and beyond all two
practices  
18:13
that often show what road is to be followed we have also a very interesting  
18:20
example of urban commons in the case of an   occupied area in the outskirts of
napoli emmanoli where a place is occupied as a kind of 
18:34
a popular center out of which a  continuous struggle to recuperate to 
18:41
reappropriate a huge beach which is uh now polluted and also  
18:49
in a way governed by the mafia so it's a kind of reclaiming of one one more
important urban  
18:58
commons which is the seashore the place for recreation a place for   production
fishermen join also this  kind of initiative it's called lido pola 
19:07
manoli so as you can see imagine  communities of commoners can 
19:14
indeed become communities as tenders  communities that are actually 
19:20
communities of reference that is communities  who have who are supporting the
initiative 
19:27
from which uh different practices of  expanding and developing urban
commons 
19:34
indeed radiate a kind of emergent commons which is crucial in our discussion
about the city  
19:43
is what i might call common space which i think is a characteristic   kind of
imagined commons because it's  a kind of space which is different both 
19:53
from public space from and from private  space it's a kind of space which is 
20:00
built by the continuous presence  by the appropriation of existing 
20:06
infrastructures and by innovative  additions to those infrastructures by 
20:12
those who actually use them and become  tenders therefore opening them to
the 
20:17
rest of the city so common spaces are not  public spaces if we keep for the
public space  
20:24
the idea that it's it is always connected to a certain authority   which authorizes
its use these are spaces produced from below rules of its use are  
20:34
not produced from above but from those who use them and those who are
actually   the tenders who open exactly  this use to the city under the 
20:44
rule the rules of inclusiveness and  mutuality obviously it's not private space 
20:51
although there is a small interesting  addition i might have on this part 
20:57
as my dear friend massimo d'angelis  sometimes said indeed in certain
societies 
21:04
uh the family can be the springboard the  starting point of a commoning process
because 
21:12
although the family may indeed contain  uneven relations patriarchal relations 
21:18
sometimes it's expands itself in a kind  of solidarity networks that can somehow 
21:24
introduce the idea of commoning in  space of course provided that they will 
21:30
somehow allow this process to  overspill the boundaries of the family 
21:36
and last but not least common space is  not community space communitarian
space 
21:42
although it can start from the  indeed practices and uh and uh 
21:50
initiatives that come from a certain community  unless this community
understands itself 
21:56
as expanding open and in the process  of becoming the tender of these
commons 
22:03
this kind of space can in a way  transfer to transform to a community 
22:10
space therefore a kind of space which is  really exclusive for the members of
this 
22:16
community only and thus exactly  the opposite of commoning 
22:22
and one more interesting characteristic  that i might add to the qualities of 
22:29
of a common space is that it looks or it has 
22:36
the speciality that in a  way can be attributed to the 
22:41
experience of threshold what is a  threshold a threshold is an intermediate 
22:46
space it's a space in between it's  a space that is between inside and 
22:53
outside between a known space and an unknown  future between something
which has an identity 
23:01
and something new else which is a potential  identity therefore in thresholds you
can find 
23:07
transformations thresholds  in a way produce comparisons 
23:12
create this common ground which is important  from for different areas of space
for 
23:19
different areas of identity to communicate i  think this image can help us
understand the 
23:26
idea of common space as threshold  space common space is not a 
23:32
space which describes the identity  identity of certain users the identity 
23:38
of a certain community common space is a space of 
23:44
common ground developed out of  negotiations between those who actually 
23:49
accept the scope of commoning as a scope  that defines a different kind of
social 
23:55
organization based on solidarity  mutuality and equality therefore 
24:01
we need to understand this kind of space  as always in the making as always at
the   crossroads of potentialities as always potentially existing  
24:12
it's it's not used to define a space as common space forever it's exactly the
same  
24:19
thing as thresholds thresholds exist the moment that we cross them  
24:25
the moment that we understand them through  crossing them the moment that
we understand that  they belong to nobody and to everybody at the  same time
the moment that we understand them  
24:33
as areas of negotiations as areas of encounters 
24:43
and let us keep also this beautiful idea that  can come from comparing the
threshold not simply 
24:50
as a actually spatial experience but also as  a very important metaphor which is
both very 
24:58
active in literature in in cultural uh production in lots of cosmo visions coming
from different  
25:06
people throughout the world and this idea is that comparison is at the same time
potentially  
25:13
translation so comparing is not simply saying that okay we are different we
acknowledge the  
25:20
difference we acknowledge the problem of finding this common ground it's not
enough it's devising  
25:28
the ways of producing this common ground it's common ground it's not going to
be given by   anybody we need to produce it and how  do we produce it
accepting the fact that 
25:37
we are different it's not the homogeneous  community that defines for its
members 
25:44
uh this this uh shared space as a kind  of exclusionary and exclusive space it's 
25:49
a community which is not commun homogeneous  it's a community as we
agreed which is  expanding gesturing towards its outside  it's a porous
boundary that defines its 
26:00
always under negotiation so this boundary  is also a threshold space therefore 
26:06
in order to communicate we need to act  practices of translation and as we
know from 
26:11
literature translation is never  complete it's always an impossible 
26:18
gesture but at the same time so  magnificent so productive so beautiful 
26:24
so inspiring because there is always a residue  and we know it but unless we
forget that every 
26:31
language keeps its own  treasures its own potentialities   as a beautiful legacy
for the humanity in total we will never understand the  
26:41
problem of translation as a challenge as an opportunity and not as a rational  
26:47
procedure which ends up as a final result therefore i think comparability and  
26:53
translatability are the essential  characteristics of common space 
26:58
and coming from the idea of threshold  the idea that common space is a
threshold 
27:05
let me apply this process this approach  to a specific area which is included in 
27:11
the article that was already  mentioned by fernanda just before 
27:16
i try to learn i'm not simply observing  the movements i'm trying to participate 
27:24
i'm an active participant in my country and   in various other occasions i try to 
contribute but mostly i try to learn 
27:32
not teach those movements what to do i  try to learn from the practices they do 
27:37
from the practices they engage in and  also i try to learn from the ways they 
27:42
actually produce theory let us  not see the movements as case 
27:48
studies let's see them as theory producers  as producers of innovative ideas as 
27:54
producers of values and forms of understanding what an emancipated society
might be  
28:03
that is why i try to learn from housing movements especially from latin america  
28:09
in argentina in your beautiful country in uruguay and in mexico  
28:14
in those movements what we actually see is not simply a demand for decent
housing  
28:21
which is obviously the center and the most important of their actions we see at
the same  
28:27
time that they prepare themselves either in the process of occupying empty
plots  
28:33
or empty buildings in order to  appropriate them or to demand for  social
housing by the local or the  federal state we see them preparing 
28:42
themselves as communities of co-inhabitants  as communities that are meant to
produce 
28:50
this common ground not simply  as an addition of individual 
28:55
or family or family demands it's indeed  as a collective creativity that in a way 
29:02
produces emergent commons commons that  are made through this practice of
of 
29:09
participation and it's not by chance that the  most of those movements are not
simply demanding 
29:17
or struggling in in certain cases a lot  with victims with lots of difficulties 
29:23
with lots of confrontations with the  forces of law or the forces of of 
29:28
security it's not only that it's at the same time   they somehow try to develop
ways of understanding themselves as 
29:41
experiments they might not use the word but  this is what they do as
experiments of new forms 
29:48
of social organization based on commonly  and how do they do this first of all 
29:53
they organize the communities beforehand  they organize their communities
even in 
29:58
the period of demand i'm talking about for  example the experience of mtss
which puts a lot of 
30:05
emphasis on the way this is  organized as a kind of community   before the
occupation of empty plots or empty buildings they also organize in terms of
rules 
30:17
in terms of forms through which they communicate  they also organize in terms
of who is 
30:23
going to enter because they understand  themselves as open communities no  
matter how organized they are they are open and they want to attract those
people who are actually  
30:33
those who suffer from the loss from their from their lack of decent   housing
what they do next is the moment they manage to  
30:44
secure the land or the public loan or something that guarantees that they will
have their social  
30:51
housing buildings in order to live together they   organize themselves in
assemblies in forms of defining what is to be designed  
31:03
how to plant their own houses that is why they produce innovative forms  
31:08
of houses they do not simply repeat what exists in autonomous mexican  
31:14
communities for example in the outskirts of mexico death you can see very
interesting 
31:22
um cases of housing areas in which there is an explicit emphasis on common
spaces that  
31:32
is spaces shared within buildings shared around smaller parts of the
neighborhoods  
31:37
forming thus a kind of network  of commoning space and defining 
31:43
space as an area of company at the same time participation therefore
commoning the plans  
31:51
commoning design and at the same time common in construction especially in
the case of fusina  
31:57
a very interesting initiative of technical assistance that i've met in  
32:02
sao paulo in the case of business interesting very interesting cases in which 
32:14
construction agreed upon through  practices of participation 
32:20
including all the potential  uses of this social housing area 
32:26
is in such a way designed so as to include 
32:32
future co-inhabitants so the  construction area the construction 
32:38
site is a very important area in which  the idea of commoning may develop 
32:44
working together is a beautiful and at  the same time very strong experience of 
32:50
living in common of understanding what  it means to share what it means to 
32:55
depend upon each other what it means to understand uh coexistence as
complementarity  
33:04
and not and not as antagonism and so on so forth so construct participation in
the  
33:09
construction is indeed a very important part and of course  
33:15
the moment that these areas indeed come into be into reality become what
they  
33:21
were supposed to become that is community areas of co-inhabiting  
33:28
how do they develop how do they accept changes   who is going to decide
which  ways of assembling would describe 
33:37
which ways of dealing with assembly rules will  describe the potentialities of
these areas these 
33:44
are not gated communities of the poor somehow  somehow have understood
these areas as almost  
33:50
the gated communities of the poor and it is true sometimes   of the urban poor
and it's true that sometimes the hostility of its outside is so immense  
34:01
that they have to somehow control entrance i would say 
34:09
in these cases because i've had lots of  interviews with those people lots of
discussions 
34:16
that they themselves realize  that enclosing themselves 
34:22
in order to defend themselves is just  something that they do temporarily 
34:28
and they their own power actually lies in the fact that they are always in  
34:37
communication with the outside with the people from the out the outside  
34:42
neighborhoods of the areas that surround those neighborhoods those those
complexes   those housing complexes in cases that i've been both in in in sao
paulo and in argentina 
34:57
in the outskirts of buenos aires and in  mexico city up in larger metropolitan
area 
35:04
they have been outside those  exemplary commoning neighborhoods 
35:09
people living in very dire conditions  often under the threat of a kind of 
35:16
gang trafficking gangs or gangs of different kinds 
35:22
so they could find a shelter they  couldn't find a kind of support 
35:28
in terms of education in terms of  protection in terms of empowerment in 
35:34
terms of sociality in terms  of uh recreation activities 
35:40
because as you know and i'm i'm not  going to say more about it because 
35:46
i know that in brazil this is a common place as  you know the production of a
feast is also part 
35:52
of a process of empowerment and the process  of becoming uh a part of a
common in 
35:59
community so all those people in  many cases find through those porous 
36:05
boundaries ways to get inspired  by this commoning um let's say 
36:11
experiments and thus get inspired produce themselves such a similar 
36:22
endeavors especially in the mexican community  of la poro borilla i've been able
to 
36:29
discuss with people this idea  that they don't intend to somehow 
36:34
pretend to become a kind of safe island a  safe haven for everybody no they
want to help 
36:41
those people to produce their own  communities of commoning so yes 
36:47
we can help you in a certain period we  can show you we can somehow give
you the 
36:53
opportunity to learn from our  successes but also from our failures 
36:59
and then go ahead produce their own produce  your own opportunities of
commoning therefore 
37:07
expand this kind of network this  kind of metastatic network of of 
37:13
urban emancipation if i  might describe it like that 
37:19
so i think we are we are um in a process  in which commoning can be
understood 
37:28
as a way of pushing the limits of the possible not simply um in a way 
37:39
saying that another word is possible   it's even more important to say that
another possible is possible  
37:48
another possible which needs to be structured by the ways people  
37:53
understand and produce their life in common taking our lives in our hands  
38:00
is a first step understanding our common   life differently is the most important
step and this step is not something which is  
38:12
forever defined by a certain rule to follow this is a step we make the road as
we  
38:18
walk on it as the zapatista say in mexico we make the road of commoning as
we produce it we  
38:27
become tenders of common spaces as we create them as we understand  
38:34
our failures and successes we reclaim the city   and we indeed we need to
reclaim the city  when a real effect was talking about the 
38:43
right to the city he was not  talking about the right of access   to certain services
or to certain goods he was talking about something even more than that  
38:52
the right to become creators of the city  
38:57
the city has over as he said the city has work and product at the same time the
city as a  
39:04
result of labor but also as a result of artistic expressive efforts to  
39:10
define a world beyond capitalism so to reclaim the city as as commons means
to reclaim our power 
39:20
to become commoners to transform ourselves  in the process of becoming
commoners 
39:27
to open our communities to  commoning newcomers and to remain 
39:32
tenders of urban commons rather than owners or those who control the rules
and practices of use 
39:44
the verb says something interesting on that unless we are able  
39:52
to define our aspirations for a more just and emancipatory society through
specific  
40:00
experiments and practices and  experiences that have to do with space  we can
never be sure so let us reclaim urban space in order to reclaim our life  
40:12
and to reclaim a better future for all of us thank you so much for your attention 

GUSTAVO
40:21
thank you so much professor stavritz  we already have some questions in the 
40:27
chat but and we are going to bring  some of them to the discussion but    before that i would like
to invite professor gilberto franza to enter this   
40:36
dialogue and bring his comments in the next 20 minutes   so professor gilberto the four is
yours 
40:47
hello fernando hello establish  hello everyone i would like to thank 
40:53
observatory metropolis first  for making this event with stavo 
40:59
stavridis possible and also for inviting me to it but i would like to give my special thanks  
41:09
to juciano rodriguez publisher with a metropolis for all his kind support and attention 
41:18
getting to know establish and his academic work [Music]  
41:26
has been very important to me and to my academic research firstly   
41:33
because besides the actual experience he presents theoretical elements about   
41:40
the potentialities of space which leads to collective   
41:46
emancipation in contemporary metropolis secondly establish is able to connect   
41:54
old and significant social movements for the right to the city in the 20th century  
42:02
especially for social housing with the contemporary social movements  
42:08
in the struggle for the collective occupation of streets square building  
42:14
public space and neighborhoods in that sense he is able to   
42:20
connect radical urban thinkers especially le fabri and devouter benjamin with thoughts  
42:29
and insights about the current urban life representations and   
42:34
struggles such as described by the philosophers hardin negri and the urbanist abdu malik
simoni 
42:45
third because of his interest in  latin american house movements 
42:51
as well as in the creation of autonomous  territories such as in chiapas in mexico 
42:59
his thoughts highlight not only the  urban potentialities but also how those 
43:06
potentialities are activated  by the dwellers themselves    from their own condition of survival
and inventiveness   
43:17
i believe that when the fabulous concept of urban virtuality is emphasized  
43:25
travis wants to highlight that the city is a collective work a work done by everybody 
43:36
therefore it contains a virtual possibility of being claimed by the ones who build it  
43:46
the brazilian geographer muton santos who worked with the concept of bainai  
43:52
space discuss the undifferentiated set of objects and actions in which all people  
44:01
companies and institutions participate the way i see it 
44:08
not only in and throughout but also  outside and beyond the capitalist 
44:15
production of the urban space that  dominate the city that is the fabulous 
44:22
collective work the city  never stops reproducing itself 
44:28
as an indissociable set of people objects and affections this is an ontological condition 
44:38
thus the right to the city  goes away beyond the mere 
44:44
right to access the city through urban  reforms it also means that it's dwellers 
44:52
collective produce of common  space changes the theory 
44:58
what would be the elements  of the contemporary urban 
45:03
reality that could generate the  potentiality described by stavros in those 
45:10
recent collective and secretary  experience of use and occupation of space 
45:19
in other words how would  the claims for common space 
45:24
in the contemporary cities be  different from the self-managed 
45:30
project raised by the fabric  considering his zeitgeist 
45:38
another thing that interests me  in his texts is the methodological 
45:46
concept that sees the creation of common space from the own action of its dwellers 
45:56
which happen bottom up that is    from their own tactics or survival and from the inventive
capabilities used by the urban poor 
46:13
i believe he stands by the point of resistance by side by side with thinkers like   
46:21
foucault hardin nagari and lefebvre such point of view allows him to get  
46:30
into very similar contexts for instance the mst housing complex in sao paulo 
46:39
where he could identify in  the popular proxy of much room 
46:46
with stems from the practices of mutual  help in the countryside of brazil as a 
46:54
modest vivendis based on  commoning in my current research 
47:01
with the geographer silva lopez we  observed that the urban commons in the 
47:07
peripheries of sao paulo do not only  represent a collective mod of event 
47:14
but also ways of putting together their  collective knowledge for their own sake 
47:23
which is the case of the urban  columbus built by the black population 
47:30
in their long resistance to  colonization is lazing and 
47:35
racism in that sense i'd  like to know in what measure 
47:43
the creation of common space and the  urban community could also mean a 
47:48
process of the colonization of knowledge how does the ancient communitarian knowledge  
47:57
as in all the struggle and ritual show up the peripheral neighborhoods   
48:04
of sao paulo buenos aires and mexico city are even in other countries  
48:11
there's an aspect that seems to be fundamental in stavros elaboration   
48:18
about common space  the existence of an opening through  which it is possible to connect 
48:30
different worlds people subjectivities  you use the concept of thresholds 
48:38
in a very original way as much to explain  as to defend this kind of common space 
48:47
so establish uh now i would like to quote to you according to what you are wrote in your book  
48:57
common space of urban emancipation open quote common space is more like a trash hold
area 
49:07
or a net work of threshold areas that  mediate between a space of diverse levels of 
49:15
privates what may look like a miniature square for instance might be the common courtyard   
49:24
of a self-managed emitter    settlement in brazil something  more like a space with bottles 
49:34
and the movable boulders that  are being shaped and transformed 
49:40
by those who collectively use it likewise in the occupies in tageman  
49:48
square in athens during the privilege of worldwide occupying movement actions  
49:54
a space was constructed so that it was no longer bounded by arrangement meant 
50:02
to regulate the use and meaning  of a ceremonial no man's land 
50:09
syntactic square was converted    to an expand network of threshold space hosting diversity  
50:20
micro community of community endicott that is 
50:27
when you refer to thresholds or thresholds space their border and the tories offer passages
doors 
50:39
bridges and shafts though  almost never visible in those 
50:44
communist spaces this idea  opposed the limit and fenced 
50:50
homogeneous space of equals  built in the neoliberal city 
50:57
the city of walls important  described by teresa caldera 
51:04
however it also seems to be far from the urban utopia of self-sufficiency sufficient common
space 
51:16
i saw the creation and opening  of social threshold space 
51:23
when students occupy their own schools in 2015 as a response to the attempt by the
government  
51:32
of sao paulo that year of closing 91 school  
51:38
which would have distributed thousands of them the high school students  
51:45
hallelujah to occupy 200 schools 30 then temporarily itself manages shared space then 
51:56
they organize themselves collectively  to ensure the provision of food 
52:03
cleaning security as well as  the realization of workshops 
52:09
courses debates and cultural  circuits during the occupation 
52:15
open the gates of the school to  the families and local communities 
52:23
it is important to say that this high  school students movement happened 
52:29
within the context of global occupy movement 
52:36
such as the one that happened  in syntagmy square in athens 
52:42
however it you also showed a  generation of young adults and teens 
52:49
especially the ones who lives in urban  peripheries in their struggle for 
52:55
the collective occupation of their own  living spaces or as they would say their 
53:03
quebradas mainly through  artistic and cultural movements 
53:10
in urban contexts where public space is his curse the youth is able to change streets  
53:19
alleys and square as well as vacant lands and   the buildings into charity entertainment and the
culture of space such claims for common space  
53:33
are similar to the ones made by the network called block joco   
53:40
in the city of sao paulo i'm referring to this    example so that i could ask you one last thing how
could the trash holding space 
53:54
concept be used to connect and go beyond  the borders of public space where for 
54:02
example students and the teachers are  the same people who occupy the common 
54:08
space i would like to take this opportunity [Music] more on time to invite the reviews to read 
54:41
but also his latest er in portuguese called espacio comun acidadico recognitive published  
54:51
by orfeonegro in portugal available on their website 
54:58
this book i think it is the first book in portuguese by stars 
55:11
thank gustavos thank fernando  thank laura thank you everyone 

STRAVOS
55:21
thank you so much it better it was a great  uh presentation and i deeply
appreciate the 
55:28
way that you rephrase and and support  a lot of things that i'm trying to say 
55:35
and believing should i rest  what now or later with i 
55:41
don't know what is exactly the process   i guess i will respond a bit to  giberto
and we go to questions then 
55:51
what is better 
55:58
i don't know 
56:06
um indeed this this experience of the high school  
56:14
students occupying their their schools not simply to make them a kind of
barricaded space for their  
56:22
demands but also to open it to the neighborhood with the crucial image   and i
think this describes exactly the  idea of porosity that i'm aiming at 
56:32
it has been also my experience when  i was one of the of those who were 
56:38
actually participating in the  occupation of syntagma square i realized 
56:44
uh that the the potentiality the power of this collective endeavor this collective  
56:52
experiment was actually in the process of metastasizing in all other places in all
other  
57:02
smaller squares in the neighborhoods because dogma square is the central
square of atoms  
57:08
and it was actually the attacking forces of the state [Music] of the government 
57:17
that were actually trying to include to enclose and to thus suffocate  
57:25
this kind of open common space this is where i almost realized that the power
of 
57:34
this kind of mobilization  which was essentially a common 
57:40
mobilization it was not using  the square as a scaffold only   it was using the
square as a kind of miniature recuperation of life of common life  
57:52
so the power of this experiment was in its power to transcend  
57:57
the boundaries that were imposed to it by from outside and indeed 
58:06
it is always an effort to go beyond  borders like go beyond established borders 
58:13
walls the way teresa caldera  describes them in the urban 
58:18
reality of sao paulo which is just  a paroxysmal case of lots of other 
58:24
cities throughout the world and as somebody  said it's not only walls of walls of 
58:30
bricks or high fences it's also walls of  prejudice walls of hate wealth of racism
these 
58:37
kind of worlds that seclude and enclose  so going beyond that is absolutely 
58:45
absolutely necessary in order  to sustain the emancipatory 
58:50
politiciality of community i haven't been  to columbus i'm deeply uh impressed
by this 
58:58
tradition and i i would very much like to see  more about it it is interesting to see
that 
59:05
the initial effort of those people to escape  this kind of torturing reality of slavery 
59:13
uh forced them to somehow  produce their own communities 
59:18
as safe as they could from the threat  and this of course is initially a kind 
59:24
of stronghold a kind of place to  be protected in order to stay there 
59:31
and be able to live a life  a decent life but i think 
59:37
the the the afro-american the  afro-brazilian the afro-colombian 
59:43
the afro-caribbean traditions are moving towards even more important
experiences based on 
59:55
memories and experiences of  community that is claiming the world 
1:00:01
not simply a corner in this world uh  i think it's very important to see 
1:00:08
that these are demands that are  really going beyond a cultural 
1:00:14
niche a cultural you know small  corner to protect these are 
1:00:22
efforts that reclaim culture  reclaim the city in its whole 
1:00:28
and i've seen this kind of this kind of  demands in this kind of struggles in in 
1:00:33
some parts of the world that were  indeed impressive and one last point 
1:00:40
i was in buenos aires at the period of  the huge feminist mobilizations against 
1:00:46
uh the prohibition of of abortion and this was again reclaiming the city not
simply 
1:00:57
demanding something using the city it  was showing what it means to be
together 
1:01:04
it was showing ways out of which  the city is being transformed i mean 
1:01:10
this idea of the feather was happening  it was temporary perhaps but it was
also 
1:01:16
indicative of what it could be and  also another example kind of also 
1:01:22
coming from argentina the recuperated  enterprises the occupied factories have
very soon 
1:01:29
realized that it's not simply  ensuring a production area 
1:01:35
based on self it was linking this area to  the neighborhood to the city opening its 
1:01:42
place for people to use for cultural  activities it's a beautiful place in 
1:01:48
impa one of the emblematic factories in  buenos aires recuperated factories
which 
1:01:54
they call dulces encuentos something  like that sorry my spanish is not super 
1:01:59
so it's the place for the  elderly of the neighborhood   they have their own space
they make it they produce it they meet there  
1:02:07
and it's really very sweet [Applause]  
1:02:12
thanks thanks very much for this   opportunity i think most of it is due to your
support and your uh really inspiring immediation 
1:02:26
uh we still have some time a few  minutes and i would like to bring up 
1:02:32
three questions that came up in  our chat and i'm going to read them 
1:02:38
and both of you can answer as you wish 
1:02:44
asks dear participatory process have usually come to face the aggregation
problem  
1:02:53
there is how to aggregate preferences at higher administrative levels  
1:02:58
how do commoning process escape this  problem in order to foster the city as a 
common uh the aggregate preferences problem then anderson nakano asks  
1:03:13
usually the brazilian state is unfair in clientelists how to cope with this which is a
kind  
1:03:19
of violence in order to create urban common space  
1:03:25
uh claudia monteiro fernandez the last one asks considering napo's experience
for example  
1:03:32
as it's a bit more similar to latin american cities how can communities   that are
part of large metropolis deal with the traditional centralized organizations of  
1:03:44
power those metropolis and i have a a a few  
1:03:51
one question actually uh regarding the article and you were talking   about
buenos aires case um in the article you say that  
1:04:02
social movements trying to build a  clinic and a health collective system 
1:04:08
have system collective administrated in  argentina as well as the mexican case
uh 
1:04:15
say that they are trying to build their  own their own justice system and to keep 
1:04:20
the police away from the the arena so when it comes to social policy or  
1:04:29
security or the use of first we usually  see it's an exclusive prerogative from  the
state the centralized state how can this  movement overcome this presence of
the states and 
1:04:40
how do you see this revolutionary  potential of those examples so for 
1:04:47
questions i don't know how would you like  to to answer them uh both of you
feel free 
1:04:53
to speak please 
1:05:00
you want to start your  battle it's up to you please 
1:05:06
please okay the problem of aggregation  and the problem of scale which is
really 
1:05:13
more or less the same question 
1:05:19
i think scaling up should not be  understood as a distinct problem 
1:05:26
therefore we need centralized gestures  and uh horizontality on this on the 
1:05:31
lower level i think we need the  same commoning practices to somehow 
1:05:39
influence all the scales all the levels  of communication between commoning 
1:05:45
experiences therefore of course  the idea of network and the 
1:05:50
idea of horizontality is the most  suitable and if horizontality means 
1:05:56
devising specific rules that somehow discourage 
1:06:03
the accumulation of power then  we are in the right direction 
1:06:09
my example the most let's say advanced  example in terms of scale comes
from 
1:06:15
chiapas in mexico where you have  various levels of self-governance 
1:06:20
they do not go against representation 
1:06:25
in in in a kind of ideological let's say purity stance no but they control
representation the idea 
1:06:36
of mandara by the siento which is i  govern because this is this is this is 
1:06:42
an obligation this is not a  privilege i am obliged to cover 
1:06:48
is a very important non-western  idea of understanding 
1:06:54
um administration and governance so  madar obedient that is governed by 
1:07:01
obeying is crucial in defining  differently representation 
1:07:07
so different levels different  scales obey the same rule 
1:07:14
representatives yes elected yes but then rotation 
1:07:21
small periods of being imposed  so that you do not have even the 
1:07:27
temptation to accumulate power  which is a nightmare in terms of 
1:07:32
management but it's beautiful  in terms of developing 
1:07:38
a co-production sharing power  a co-production of power not 
1:07:43
a power which is really um administered to certain distinguished individuals or
groups so it of  
1:07:54
course interestingly this also deviates differentiates itself  
1:07:59
from the indigenous tradition of of the elderly leading the group  
1:08:06
or the chosen let's say kasich's which were mostly in many cases 
1:08:17
in conditions of negotiation with the  central states and so on so forth so it 
1:08:22
is important to see the problem of scale   as an inherent problem of commoning
and we're if we're talking about expansion  
1:08:30
expanding processes we need to devise  ways through which this kind of
network 
1:08:36
will develop keeping both  the idea of its autonomy its 
1:08:41
autonomous parts and the idea of being always in  search of this common
ground which defines the 
1:08:48
common rules because another  interesting particularity of the 
1:08:53
zapatista system of self-governance is  the fact that they don't have the same  
educational system in all the areas they have the same values or perhaps the
same um 
1:09:09
directions in terms of uh  educational system but they don't 
1:09:14
have the same educational system they  don't have the same particularities   in
terms of production or in terms of dealing with certain problems that have to do
with  
1:09:25
confrontation with attacking paramilitaries   and so on so forth so it's an
interesting  experiment that shows that aggregation is 
1:09:35
is possible and participation  is always a problem that poses 
1:09:41
new directions of course provided that you  are always in in in the process of
protecting 
1:09:50
the quality in participation and also if i  might add the opportunity for everybody
for each 
1:09:56
and everybody to form opinions not simply  to vote or to say yes or no in some
some 
1:10:04
questions to be able to develop  opinions which is also a huge problem of 
1:10:10
participation the unfair the second question  obviously i know what it means to
be 
1:10:18
in a country with a clientelist state  we have our share of corruption but i 
1:10:25
always remember i think it  was david howard who said it 
1:10:30
once to me listen you guys from the global  south what you call corruption we in
the globe 
1:10:37
are not called lobbyism okay  so it's a it's a different kind 
1:10:42
of dealing with the state and and using  the opportunities to influence decisions 
1:10:48
of the central state and of course  this is not an easy condition 
1:10:55
i think commoning produces roads  in the direction of challenging 
1:11:02
existing forms of social organization  and i include in those forms of social  
organization the state the state is a specific form of social organization  
1:11:12
it existed before capitalism it's not necessary to exist after capitalism we  
1:11:17
need to find new ways new forms new kinds of social organization 
1:11:27
based on horizontality  decentralization and co-operation 
1:11:35
forms of collaboration that are based on  mutual respect and we have we have
this kind of 
1:11:40
experiments i mean even if a  settlement of three thousand families 
1:11:46
like uh an empty settlement   can be governed through these rules why not hire
in on different scales if it's if 
1:11:57
if an area of zapatistas or  in in kurdish regions in in 
1:12:02
in syria can be governed through horizontal  horizontality can't we not think
beyond 
1:12:09
the state beyond this form of social  organization it has its history it's a
historical 
1:12:16
construct it's not the eternal form  through which societies societies have 
1:12:21
organized themselves and let us remember again  that one of the marxist ideas
about the state was 
1:12:28
the withering of the state it's what  it was not what has happened after 
1:12:35
the russian revolution which was the  production very of a very strong state 
1:12:40
in the name of revolution of course  and thus i i go to fernandez question 
1:12:46
about who is going to take care of the  social policy areas and the the safety
system 
1:12:53
and so on and so forth we have examples in which  the safety was taken in the
hands of those people 
1:12:59
guaranteeing the fact that they are  they are first of all they they know   that they
are in an unjust world they don't trust what is supposed to ensure them an
equal 
1:13:11
inequality in front of the law which is a  very important bourgeois value which i
deeply 
1:13:18
of course respect they don't trust that this is  a reality and they are right so they
take their 
1:13:24
lives in their hands in that area too an  interesting example was the case of the
oaxaca 
1:13:31
occupied city it started as a as a in mexico   it started as a huge struggle of 
1:13:43
school teachers demanding preservation of  public education and against neo-
liberal reform 
1:13:50
and it soon evolved to an occupation  of a whole city which was of course 
1:13:56
taking care of everything this  occupation was gathering the garbage this 
1:14:02
occupation was taking care of the people who had  to to stay in the barricades
to protect the major 
1:14:09
public buildings from the attack of  the army they had to cook for them 
1:14:14
and one very important thing  that one of uh those people 
1:14:20
told us when he came to greece for  invited for by us to tell us about this 
1:14:25
experience he said yes of course it's  important to take into into control to
control 
1:14:32
the medium of the media production the  means of production but don't forget 
1:14:38
the medium of information don't  forget the information media these are 
1:14:43
extremely important for the control of  our lives so one of the things that they 
1:14:49
got into they occupied and they used was the television center and what was
the first  
1:14:58
gesture of the local government that's extremely corrupt local government they  
1:15:06
destroyed the antennas because they knew the power of the media so  
1:15:13
this idea of centralization of power is i think at the opposite side  
1:15:20
of the diffusion of power of the commoning of power   which is characteristic of
the emancipatory  promises of communing and i say promises 
1:15:31
this is a precarious a risky road no  guarantee for that because we have seen 
1:15:36
certain forms of commoning evolving to each  to their opposite becoming areas
of privilege 
1:15:43
so let us always be on guard always pay  attention to the potentialities but also
to the 
1:15:51
to the problems that can arise when  commons are not protected as the power 
1:15:56
to go beyond existing forms of social  organization and cultivating the values 
1:16:02
of of mutuality and equality 
1:16:11
well thank you uh well i  believe that we came out of this