Fundação João Pinheiro

Escola de Governo Paulo Neves de Carvalho

Curso Superior de Administração Pública

CSAP
Projeto OPP EBOOK Ano 2022 Semestre 1ºSemestre/22
Professores Dra. Carla Bronzo e Dr. Bruno
Atividade Transcrição da entrevista Stavros Stavrides
Aluno Diogo Oliveira

3:35
thank you very much hernandez thank you very much giberto for this uh  
3:40
opportunity and thanks everybody for the from the observatory i know that
you're doing a great  
3:48
work in brazil and of course it's one of my beloved countries   i've been several
times in brazil and  i really enjoy the place the people 
3:58
and of course the struggle uh my  attempt today is to present to you 
4:04
some of my uh thoughts and my  um research findings if i may 
4:10
concerning a certain approach to the idea of  the commons and especially the
urban commons 
4:16
because of course as you  all understand this is not 
4:21
an area of discussion on which  everybody agrees so i have to somehow 
4:26
introduce my point of entry and  also my attempt to expand this 
4:33
entrance in order to make it possible  for activist practices to enter and learn 
4:40
new things and offer new things  therefore my initial initial remarks 
4:46
have to do with what do i mean by the idea  of commons i don't mean things i
don't mean 
4:53
specific services and i don't  mean resources i actually mean 
4:59
social relations that is relations under  which a specific society or community 
5:05
defines what it needs to share what  is to be shared among among its 
5:11
members and we will soon see that this  is crucial for the very construction 
5:16
constitution of this this community and  how which is very important the rules 
5:22
under what conditions there is a split there  i think in the international
discussion 
5:28
between those who follow let's say the ostrom  root famous economist who was
awarded the 
5:35
nobel prize for her contribution  to the idea of a commons 
5:42
and on the other side between  those who are actually 
5:49
in a way understanding the  commons as a road towards 
5:55
human and social emancipation let us recall that  for ostrom it is important there
is an important 
6:02
thing for the guarantee of  the practices of commons 
6:08
which is a stable community  and a stable set of rules 
6:14
in these rules admittedly she finds that have  to be quite distinct from the rules
imposed by 
6:22
either the state or the market so  for here the commons is a kind of 
6:28
third area of transaction and  social relations that has to do with 
6:34
rules that define a certain  functioning of a certain community 
6:41
and most important is that  she understands this practice 
6:47
as building certain boundaries around this  community which is which are
essential 
6:52
for the preservation and the sustainability of  the commons as he explicitly says
in the happening 
6:59
of the commons the well-known book my  approach aligns with people who talk
about the 
7:05
commons as not one more sector within  capitalism but actually as a form 
7:13
of social relations as a  practice of social organization 
7:18
that in a way gestures thoughts  beyond capitalism therefore 
7:24
i put an emphasis on both rethinking the idea  of resources rethinking the idea
of rules and 
7:31
rethinking as you will soon see the idea  of community of commoners those who
common 
7:37
first of all resources as  i said before this is not 
7:43
things these are relations therefore  we need to see them as dynamics 
7:49
as conditions that take time  that unfold as processes 
7:55
and thus define ways of dealing for example the water is not a common good in
this  
8:03
approach the water becomes an issue of commoning using the verb at the
moment in which a specific 
8:14
context a specific social context  defines water as necessary 
8:19
defines the distribution of water under  specific conditions therefore water is 
8:25
not anymore a natural substance it's a  substance that has to do with social
relations  
8:30
a rural society will talk differently   about water than an urban  society and so on
and so forth 
8:39
rules i believe that a crucial contribution  of those who think that the
commoning 
8:45
process is potentially an emancipatory  process is the idea that rules should be 
8:51
made by those who actually participate the  commoning process and not by an
outside 
8:57
body who kind of produces institutions and under  those institutions guarantees
the subsistence 
9:05
and sustainability of commons so  rules should be a process themselves 
9:11
a work in the making which is always involving 
9:17
those who actually participate in the commoning  processes and last but not
least and we will talk 
9:23
a bit more about it we're not talking about  closed communities we're not talking
about 
9:29
stable communities who can within their  themselves define rules of sharing 
9:36
because no matter how democratic  such a community might be 
9:42
at the moment in which eating by  its definition excludes others 
9:48
it somehow limits the practices of  commoning within a certain social enclosure 
9:54
and within enclosure this is my major  conviction closing sorry commoning dies 
10:01
so commoning can survive only  by expanding of course provided 
10:06
that newcomers would accept the  conditions of finding a common ground 
10:12
and developing rules of sharing  based on mutuality and and equality 
10:17
therefore we can talk about emergent  communities about potential
communities 
10:24
that are building through a collective  creativity through forms of collective
creativity 
10:30
a kind of autonomy a highly contested  world what is autonomy autonomy is not 
10:37
what it might seem like the autonomy of an  individual who is completely
independent from its 
10:44
surrounding no autonomy is actually exactly the  opposite it's the way through
which a community 
10:50
develops itself by devising its own  rules and by remaining at the same time 
10:57
open to the potentialities of newcomers   so it's a community which actually
builds itself in the making creates  
11:06
itself sustains itself as a work in progress and this community indeed accepts
not simply the 
11:16
repetition of existing traditions the  repetition of existing habits but indeed 
11:21
the exploration the continuous  reinvention of habits in the 
11:27
process of developing a form of  self-government so in the end 
11:35
autonomy defines what i would briefly describe as the commoning of power  
11:43
as a process through which we continuously as commoners develop means
through which we 
11:52
discourage control prohibit  any accumulation of power 
11:57
in the process of developing ever new  forms of sharing under the rules of 
12:03
mutuality and solidarity co-producers call co-interpreters of laws call
laboratories  
12:13
in the process of defining what is to be shared and how  
12:20
importantly this idea of emergent community this idea of community in the
making this idea  
12:26
of autonomous community can learn a lot from communities that were not only
part of the  
12:33
tradition of the western let's say mentality throughout the world and i i was lucky
to  
12:39
be able to get in contact with such  communities throughout the world there  are
communities which were actually  defining themselves in different ways 
12:48
and especially because we are going to talk  about the city they were defining
themselves  
12:54
in terms of relation to their territory in different ways   for example as you
probably as most of you probably know there are communities who  
13:04
understand themselves through the cosmo vision of buen vivir  
13:09
especially in the andean countries in  latin america this conformation does not 
simply describe a closed system within  which a community understands itself it 
13:19
actually defines an open system an  inclusive system which at the same time 
13:25
understands the relation with the territory  on which this community actually
develops 
13:32
exists as a relation which  is a relation of mutuality 
13:38
and a relation of co-production  this is important this is important 
13:43
because it shows us a way out of this  kind of not only western but basically 
13:49
western understanding of the relation with  space either natural space rural
space or 
13:56
urban space as a relation  which is based on jurisdiction 
14:02
ownership this is our space this  is the space that we need to 
14:09
stay and govern ourselves by staying there in bambivir mentality community is
more  
14:18
like a tender of the territory let us please keep this beautiful idea what does it  
14:24
mean to be a tender of territory it's not simply using the territory  
14:30
either urban or rural as a container on which society or community develops  
14:37
it's using the territory as a kind of mutual creativity as a kind of mutual creation  
14:44
as a kind of mutual reenactment it's a beautiful phrase by arturo excobar which
says that  
14:51
a community's territory is to be understood as a system of relations   whose
continuous reenactment please observe the word reenactment  
15:00
recreates the community in question so reenactment and recreation a work in
progress 
15:08
let us then think about communities that are meant to produce this kind of
commoning which always  
15:17
expands beyond any potential and closure as communities that can be  
15:23
described as open communities of commoners as emergent communities   of
commoners as communities of practice as somebody else has suggested or as
communities  
15:34
of reference as the neapolitan movement has defined them in  
15:42
the struggle for the preservation and the sustainers of urban commons in
napoli  
15:48
and here i would like to take the opportunity to talk a bit more about it   because
in napoli in italy there has been a very beautiful and interesting experience  
15:59
in which initially produced occupied spaces especially for culture and public
use 
16:09
an initial action that was  actually the occupation of those  
16:14
abandoned places and used in favor of the community and the city   this
evolved to a kind of agreement with an enlightened if you want uh municipal
authority  
16:28
that has given them the opportunity to govern themselves these urban
commons as  
16:35
they agreed to define them and at the same time to use them as a kind of  
16:42
springboard if you want for the city to engage in a culture of commoning  
16:49
so what they called as communities of reference were actually tenders  
16:54
of urban commons not users only neither of course owners tenders  
17:01
means that we they were in charge of taking care   of ensuring that those areas
of urban commoning would remain open to the city  
17:13
provided that they would exclude and this is explicitly stated in in their
agreements  
17:19
provided that they would actually exclude sexist racist and faces fascist
behaviors 
17:27
apart from this anyone is potentially  included as long as he or she accepts 
17:34
the rules under which the urban  commons are sustained and promoted 
17:40
we have interesting very very interesting  examples in napoli of such buildings
there there 
17:45
are huge buildings in in many  cases which evolved to uh 
17:50
to uh cultural centers open to to the city   completely self-managed with specific
rules under which a general assembly  
18:01
in a way institutes itself keeps on instituting itself because this is a process  
18:07
open to discussion and to deliberation and to newcomers and beyond all two
practices  
18:13
that often show what road is to be followed we have also a very interesting  
18:20
example of urban commons in the case of an   occupied area in the outskirts of
napoli emmanoli where a place is occupied as a kind of 
18:34
a popular center out of which a  continuous struggle to recuperate to 
18:41
reappropriate a huge beach which is uh now polluted and also  
18:49
in a way governed by the mafia so it's a kind of reclaiming of one one more
important urban  
18:58
commons which is the seashore the place for recreation a place for   production
fishermen join also this  kind of initiative it's called lido pola 
19:07
manoli so as you can see imagine  communities of commoners can 
19:14
indeed become communities as tenders  communities that are actually 
19:20
communities of reference that is communities  who have who are supporting the
initiative 
19:27
from which uh different practices of  expanding and developing urban
commons 
19:34
indeed radiate a kind of emergent commons which is crucial in our discussion
about the city  
19:43
is what i might call common space which i think is a characteristic   kind of
imagined commons because it's  a kind of space which is different both 
19:53
from public space from and from private  space it's a kind of space which is 
20:00
built by the continuous presence  by the appropriation of existing 
20:06
infrastructures and by innovative  additions to those infrastructures by 
20:12
those who actually use them and become  tenders therefore opening them to
the 
20:17
rest of the city so common spaces are not  public spaces if we keep for the
public space  
20:24
the idea that it's it is always connected to a certain authority   which authorizes
its use these are spaces produced from below rules of its use are  
20:34
not produced from above but from those who use them and those who are
actually   the tenders who open exactly  this use to the city under the 
20:44
rule the rules of inclusiveness and  mutuality obviously it's not private space 
20:51
although there is a small interesting  addition i might have on this part 
20:57
as my dear friend massimo d'angelis  sometimes said indeed in certain
societies 
21:04
uh the family can be the springboard the  starting point of a commoning process
because 
21:12
although the family may indeed contain  uneven relations patriarchal relations 
21:18
sometimes it's expands itself in a kind  of solidarity networks that can somehow 
21:24
introduce the idea of commoning in  space of course provided that they will 
21:30
somehow allow this process to  overspill the boundaries of the family 
21:36
and last but not least common space is  not community space communitarian
space 
21:42
although it can start from the  indeed practices and uh and uh 
21:50
initiatives that come from a certain community  unless this community
understands itself 
21:56
as expanding open and in the process  of becoming the tender of these
commons 
22:03
this kind of space can in a way  transfer to transform to a community 
22:10
space therefore a kind of space which is  really exclusive for the members of
this 
22:16
community only and thus exactly  the opposite of commoning 
22:22
and one more interesting characteristic  that i might add to the qualities of 
22:29
of a common space is that it looks or it has 
22:36
the speciality that in a  way can be attributed to the 
22:41
experience of threshold what is a  threshold a threshold is an intermediate 
22:46
space it's a space in between it's  a space that is between inside and 
22:53
outside between a known space and an unknown  future between something
which has an identity 
23:01
and something new else which is a potential  identity therefore in thresholds you
can find 
23:07
transformations thresholds  in a way produce comparisons 
23:12
create this common ground which is important  from for different areas of space
for 
23:19
different areas of identity to communicate i  think this image can help us
understand the 
23:26
idea of common space as threshold  space common space is not a 
23:32
space which describes the identity  identity of certain users the identity 
23:38
of a certain community common space is a space of 
23:44
common ground developed out of  negotiations between those who actually 
23:49
accept the scope of commoning as a scope  that defines a different kind of
social 
23:55
organization based on solidarity  mutuality and equality therefore 
24:01
we need to understand this kind of space  as always in the making as always at
the   crossroads of potentialities as always potentially existing  
24:12
it's it's not used to define a space as common space forever it's exactly the
same  
24:19
thing as thresholds thresholds exist the moment that we cross them  
24:25
the moment that we understand them through  crossing them the moment that
we understand that  they belong to nobody and to everybody at the  same time
the moment that we understand them  
24:33
as areas of negotiations as areas of encounters 
24:43
and let us keep also this beautiful idea that  can come from comparing the
threshold not simply 
24:50
as a actually spatial experience but also as  a very important metaphor which is
both very 
24:58
active in literature in in cultural uh production in lots of cosmo visions coming
from different  
25:06
people throughout the world and this idea is that comparison is at the same time
potentially  
25:13
translation so comparing is not simply saying that okay we are different we
acknowledge the  
25:20
difference we acknowledge the problem of finding this common ground it's not
enough it's devising  
25:28
the ways of producing this common ground it's common ground it's not going to
be given by   anybody we need to produce it and how  do we produce it
accepting the fact that 
25:37
we are different it's not the homogeneous  community that defines for its
members 
25:44
uh this this uh shared space as a kind  of exclusionary and exclusive space it's 
25:49
a community which is not commun homogeneous  it's a community as we
agreed which is  expanding gesturing towards its outside  it's a porous
boundary that defines its 
26:00
always under negotiation so this boundary  is also a threshold space therefore 
26:06
in order to communicate we need to act  practices of translation and as we
know from 
26:11
literature translation is never  complete it's always an impossible 
26:18
gesture but at the same time so  magnificent so productive so beautiful 
26:24
so inspiring because there is always a residue  and we know it but unless we
forget that every 
26:31
language keeps its own  treasures its own potentialities   as a beautiful legacy
for the humanity in total we will never understand the  
26:41
problem of translation as a challenge as an opportunity and not as a rational  
26:47
procedure which ends up as a final result therefore i think comparability and  
26:53
translatability are the essential  characteristics of common space 
26:58
and coming from the idea of threshold  the idea that common space is a
threshold 
27:05
let me apply this process this approach  to a specific area which is included in 
27:11
the article that was already  mentioned by fernanda just before 
27:16
i try to learn i'm not simply observing  the movements i'm trying to participate 
27:24
i'm an active participant in my country and   in various other occasions i try to 
contribute but mostly i try to learn 
27:32
not teach those movements what to do i  try to learn from the practices they do 
27:37
from the practices they engage in and  also i try to learn from the ways they 
27:42
actually produce theory let us  not see the movements as case 
27:48
studies let's see them as theory producers  as producers of innovative ideas as 
27:54
producers of values and forms of understanding what an emancipated society
might be  
28:03
that is why i try to learn from housing movements especially from latin america  
28:09
in argentina in your beautiful country in uruguay and in mexico  
28:14
in those movements what we actually see is not simply a demand for decent
housing  
28:21
which is obviously the center and the most important of their actions we see at
the same  
28:27
time that they prepare themselves either in the process of occupying empty
plots  
28:33
or empty buildings in order to  appropriate them or to demand for  social
housing by the local or the  federal state we see them preparing 
28:42
themselves as communities of co-inhabitants  as communities that are meant to
produce 
28:50
this common ground not simply  as an addition of individual 
28:55
or family or family demands it's indeed  as a collective creativity that in a way 
29:02
produces emergent commons commons that  are made through this practice of
of 
29:09
participation and it's not by chance that the  most of those movements are not
simply demanding 
29:17
or struggling in in certain cases a lot  with victims with lots of difficulties 
29:23
with lots of confrontations with the  forces of law or the forces of of 
29:28
security it's not only that it's at the same time   they somehow try to develop
ways of understanding themselves as 
29:41
experiments they might not use the word but  this is what they do as
experiments of new forms 
29:48
of social organization based on commonly  and how do they do this first of all 
29:53
they organize the communities beforehand  they organize their communities
even in 
29:58
the period of demand i'm talking about for  example the experience of mtss
which puts a lot of 
30:05
emphasis on the way this is  organized as a kind of community   before the
occupation of empty plots or empty buildings they also organize in terms of
rules 
30:17
in terms of forms through which they communicate  they also organize in terms
of who is 
30:23
going to enter because they understand  themselves as open communities no  
matter how organized they are they are open and they want to attract those
people who are actually  
30:33
those who suffer from the loss from their from their lack of decent   housing
what they do next is the moment they manage to  
30:44
secure the land or the public loan or something that guarantees that they will
have their social  
30:51
housing buildings in order to live together they   organize themselves in
assemblies in forms of defining what is to be designed  
31:03
how to plant their own houses that is why they produce innovative forms  
31:08
of houses they do not simply repeat what exists in autonomous mexican  
31:14
communities for example in the outskirts of mexico death you can see very
interesting 
31:22
um cases of housing areas in which there is an explicit emphasis on common
spaces that  
31:32
is spaces shared within buildings shared around smaller parts of the
neighborhoods  
31:37
forming thus a kind of network  of commoning space and defining 
31:43
space as an area of company at the same time participation therefore
commoning the plans  
31:51
commoning design and at the same time common in construction especially in
the case of fusina  
31:57
a very interesting initiative of technical assistance that i've met in  
32:02
sao paulo in the case of business interesting very interesting cases in which 
32:14
construction agreed upon through  practices of participation 
32:20
including all the potential  uses of this social housing area 
32:26
is in such a way designed so as to include 
32:32
future co-inhabitants so the  construction area the construction 
32:38
site is a very important area in which  the idea of commoning may develop 
32:44
working together is a beautiful and at  the same time very strong experience of 
32:50
living in common of understanding what  it means to share what it means to 
32:55
depend upon each other what it means to understand uh coexistence as
complementarity  
33:04
and not and not as antagonism and so on so forth so construct participation in
the  
33:09
construction is indeed a very important part and of course  
33:15
the moment that these areas indeed come into be into reality become what
they  
33:21
were supposed to become that is community areas of co-inhabiting  
33:28
how do they develop how do they accept changes   who is going to decide
which  ways of assembling would describe 
33:37
which ways of dealing with assembly rules will  describe the potentialities of
these areas these 
33:44
are not gated communities of the poor somehow  somehow have understood
these areas as almost  
33:50
the gated communities of the poor and it is true sometimes   of the urban poor
and it's true that sometimes the hostility of its outside is so immense  
34:01
that they have to somehow control entrance i would say 
34:09
in these cases because i've had lots of  interviews with those people lots of
discussions 
34:16
that they themselves realize  that enclosing themselves 
34:22
in order to defend themselves is just  something that they do temporarily 
34:28
and they their own power actually lies in the fact that they are always in  
34:37
communication with the outside with the people from the out the outside  
34:42
neighborhoods of the areas that surround those neighborhoods those those
complexes   those housing complexes in cases that i've been both in in in sao
paulo and in argentina 
34:57
in the outskirts of buenos aires and in  mexico city up in larger metropolitan
area 
35:04
they have been outside those  exemplary commoning neighborhoods 
35:09
people living in very dire conditions  often under the threat of a kind of 
35:16
gang trafficking gangs or gangs of different kinds 
35:22
so they could find a shelter they  couldn't find a kind of support 
35:28
in terms of education in terms of  protection in terms of empowerment in 
35:34
terms of sociality in terms  of uh recreation activities 
35:40
because as you know and i'm i'm not  going to say more about it because 
35:46
i know that in brazil this is a common place as  you know the production of a
feast is also part 
35:52
of a process of empowerment and the process  of becoming uh a part of a
common in 
35:59
community so all those people in  many cases find through those porous 
36:05
boundaries ways to get inspired  by this commoning um let's say 
36:11
experiments and thus get inspired produce themselves such a similar 
36:22
endeavors especially in the mexican community  of la poro borilla i've been able
to 
36:29
discuss with people this idea  that they don't intend to somehow 
36:34
pretend to become a kind of safe island a  safe haven for everybody no they
want to help 
36:41
those people to produce their own  communities of commoning so yes 
36:47
we can help you in a certain period we  can show you we can somehow give
you the 
36:53
opportunity to learn from our  successes but also from our failures 
36:59
and then go ahead produce their own produce  your own opportunities of
commoning therefore 
37:07
expand this kind of network this  kind of metastatic network of of 
37:13
urban emancipation if i  might describe it like that 
37:19
so i think we are we are um in a process  in which commoning can be
understood 
37:28
as a way of pushing the limits of the possible not simply um in a way 
37:39
saying that another word is possible   it's even more important to say that
another possible is possible  
37:48
another possible which needs to be structured by the ways people  
37:53
understand and produce their life in common taking our lives in our hands  
38:00
is a first step understanding our common   life differently is the most important
step and this step is not something which is  
38:12
forever defined by a certain rule to follow this is a step we make the road as
we  
38:18
walk on it as the zapatista say in mexico we make the road of commoning as
we produce it we  
38:27
become tenders of common spaces as we create them as we understand  
38:34
our failures and successes we reclaim the city   and we indeed we need to
reclaim the city  when a real effect was talking about the 
38:43
right to the city he was not  talking about the right of access   to certain services
or to certain goods he was talking about something even more than that  
38:52
the right to become creators of the city  
38:57
the city has over as he said the city has work and product at the same time the
city as a  
39:04
result of labor but also as a result of artistic expressive efforts to  
39:10
define a world beyond capitalism so to reclaim the city as as commons means
to reclaim our power 
39:20
to become commoners to transform ourselves  in the process of becoming
commoners 
39:27
to open our communities to  commoning newcomers and to remain 
39:32
tenders of urban commons rather than owners or those who control the rules
and practices of use 
39:44
the verb says something interesting on that unless we are able  
39:52
to define our aspirations for a more just and emancipatory society through
specific  
40:00
experiments and practices and  experiences that have to do with space  we can
never be sure so let us reclaim urban space in order to reclaim our life  
40:12
and to reclaim a better future for all of us thank you so much for your attention