This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Thanks for Dan Learning the In Our Time podcast. For more details about in our time and for our terms
of use, please go to bbc.co.uk/radio four. I hope you enjoy the programme. Hello. What does it mean to
call this century the American century? Have America's ideals travelled faster than America's mistakes?
Has America driven the century in a direction which could be called benevolent? Or is the jury still out?
I'm joined by Harold Evans over from New York, where he went to live in 1984, having resigned in 1981
as editor of the Sunday Times. Now an American citizen, which surprises me considerably. He's just
written a dazzling book, 900 pictures, almost 700 pages called The American Century, which he has
described as a tribute to America's triumph of its faith in its founding idea of political and economic
freedom. I'm also joined by John Lloyd, who's been associate editor of The New Statesman since 1996.
He was a times correspondent in Moscow for four years. Before that he was East European Editor of the
Financial Times. He's won many awards for his journalism and he now writes for the Financial Times as
well as for the New Statesman, Harry Evans. When I was reading this book, which is a tremendous, uh,
read and tremendous look because the photographs are amazing, I thought, well, it is the American
century in one way, but in another way it's the English god's Irish, German Polish, Jewish, Italian, African
century. It's the transplanted to America century.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
Yes. And they've been transplanted, but absorbed some of the ideals and aspirations of America. Often
asked, why do people go to the United States? A lot of them, obviously most of them are probably
attracted material prosperity, but a lot have gone there for some kind of sense of freedom. If you go
back over the a hundred years, it is obviously a country made by immigration, uh, but also a country
made by certain ideals. I think back to the Italians arriving in 18 89, 2 thirds of them isn't that a lot of the
Italians went home again, didn't stay, the people who stayed with the Jews, but at two third of the
Italians couldn't even read or write in their own language. And yet today those descendants are
obviously, you know, educated citizens taking part in the democracy and not incidentally all the mafia.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Is it just convenient that use the word American? Is that not, is that I'm asking you, you know, more
about neither, is that not just a papering over? Would it be more interesting to think of a, of a stranded
century of these stranded different, um, communities and nationalities mainly for mural who've made
it?

Speaker 2 (02:22):
Well, I'll tell you what, I worry about hyphenating the country and having English American, Irish
American because the general history of the world is that society's divided ethnically breakup. We don't
have to be reminded of Bosnia, but there are many, many societies in the Subc subcontinent of Asia and
so on. So the idea of emphasising diversity is, to me a little dangerous. And I'd rather like the idea of
them becoming Americans while keeping some cultural contacts. I don't like the idea of emphasising
their ethnic and racial differences.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Well, how, how have you changed since you have to my astonishment? I mean, you are the most English
person that I've met almost. And how, how have you changed since you became an American citizen?
Well, I've

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 1 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Got a ipo. I've got a little more, I've got a little more used to American optimism, which is something,
and also American habits of increasing consumption, such as when you ordered breakfast at an
American hotel and you say like orange juice to say, what else? And I say, well, some coffee. What else?
Well, about some toast. What else? Until you feel as though you haven't appea the whole materialism of
the states. I've changed in those directions. I love England. I don't get me wrong. I mean it's ridiculous,
this idea that somehow because one embraces American citizenship, one is no longer English, I feel very
English and my kids feel very English and very patriotic at the same time, some aspects of English society
have never liked the hierarchical, the class thing and so on. And I like the sense of optimism and
opportunity in the states.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Okay, let's define what you mean by the American century. I've got lots of quotations from your work
here, but it's better if you make them up yourself, as it were. What is, just give us two or three sketches
of the things that you think are great about the American century because this is the book of an
enthusiast. Yes. It's almost the Book of a Convert.

Speaker 2 (04:03):
Yes, it is. It is. You could be critical. I mean, and I can be critical myself, in fact, uh, I'm just trying to take
a large perspective here. If you begin in 1889, you have a society which many English visitors, HG Wells,
uh, Roger Kipling and Americas like Whitman and Henry Adams don't think will survive because it's
never survived to have all these different races and national artists with a set of impossible ideals. And
society incidentally, in 1889, which is no, by no means equal in any political sense, women don't have
the vote, blacks don't have the vote, young people don't have the vote. The power of money is
overwhelming. Uh, the populists begin to fight against it. And what I admire, I admire about the
American century is the way these acts of rebellion say in rebellion in the end, produce a better society
after much, much agony. And when I think just taking, again a broad view of it don't only become a
cohesive society in their own with enlarging freedoms for individuals and groups, but we have the
situation in which belatedly the United States comes to the rescue of the ill world in 19 42, 19 41, and
then restores to a kind of democracy that they've never known in Germany and, and Japan. Well, we

Speaker 1 (05:17):
Can come to that cuz I think you give them an awful lot. They come to the aid. Hitler declared war in
America. I know

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Japan

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Bombed America. Yes. Coming to the aid is a generous way to put it. Can I turn to John Lloyd for one
moment? One of the things Harry says, John is, um, the idea of the idea of a free community of nations
linked by friendship and ideals rather than simply the mechanisms of the balance of power was distinctly
American. Now A do you believe that and B, do you think that is that is there or is that a wish for that
Harry's talking about?

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 2 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Speaker 3 (05:46):
I I do partly believe it actually, Melvin, I'm also though I've never lived there. I'm an admirer of America
and I'm, I admire immensely. Uh, Harry Evans book, uh, it was kind of, I think said by one of your people
that it was a coffee table book. If this is a coffee table book, you need a hell of a coffee table. Both in
terms it weighs in it several pounds, but also it hugely ambitious. I mean, you, the essays you write, the
commentaries you write on every Yes. Decade or so are enormous. And you must what what I felt
reading it was, you must have thought when you were doing that. I'm taking on huge controversies,
which historians and political scientists are arguing about still the nature of slavery, right? The causes
and cures of the depression, right. The Nixon years and so on. Yet you cleave through them with a kind
of a, a liberal, it's a very much a liberals book too.
(06:31):
It's both a s schizoid book in that it's, it's half saying how awful America is half saying how wonderful.
Right? And it's also liberal's book what you do, what one of the fine passages of the book is about
Wilson and Wilson's optimism about a new world, really. Right. Perhaps that quotation is from that part
or just, or from another part in which you emphasise America's destiny, the city on the hill. And I think
when I spent some years in Russia looking at America as it were, from a rather increasingly hostile
perspective, the Russians, I mean, and what one God also was, which is part in your book, but that might
be a little more emphasised, is this, that other people in the world just don't like that they don't like
what the American Sea is optimism. They see as being not quite imperialist, but overbearing.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
There's a great amount that I think many people listening to this programme and might some include
admire and like about America. But I want to dig into this book a bit. I mean, that's what this program's
about. And I want to address this, this thing that you say, Harry, the glory of a people doesn't line their
economic indices, their actuarial tables, even, even the fame of their designer genes. It lies in their
idealism, in the use they make of their resources and the kind of people they became amid the
temptations of pride and greed. Now you're setting up America as more than a city on a hill. Uh, that's
almost evangelical. These people are like no other people. And I think there's, there's a lot to be said
about that. I'm gonna go to John Lloyd first. How do you take that remark?

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, I, I think, uh, as I said, I think that there is, in America, and you can bring it out a bit, there is this
constant theme in public life often belied by, if you like, what happens to America, this constant theme
of we can do it, can do the can do Americans, and also that we have in some sense a destiny and a right,
increasingly actually as essentially goes on a right to bring light to the darkness that seems to come out
of your book. It also comes out, I think, of your take on America. You, you half agree with this. You're,
you've, you're a sceptical journalist still, but you half agree with it that you've been taken over by it,
partly. Is that right? I

Speaker 2 (08:31):
Think everything you said was so penetrating and correct both of you. Uh, schizoid is right in a sense.
Uh, and I was surprised when people say this book is liberal. And I know what happened in the course of
writing it when looking at the history, looking at the facts. I mean, I read 5,000, uh, books to do it. And,
and I became more and more radicalised when I realised that time and time again, the individual
fighting was right and those resisting him were wrong. And so this book was a radicalising experience.

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 3 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Me, I've came out more liberal than I expected. He's John's right, his kids on your right too. Um, this
evangelical strain can get very dangerous. And I've often found myself thinking how old as the hell do
they think they are? What kind of people do they think we are? I mean, I'm very patriotic, very, and I've
always been very defensive of what we did in the world.
(09:19):
In fact, in writing the book, anybody who reads it in the kind of fine way you've read will realise that I've
emphasising throughout the British War record and things like that. However, it has to be said that
America does get resented for this evangelical streak. At the same time, I think without it, let me just
put a question too. This terrible slaughtered in Rwanda and the United Nations failing, where do you
look for leadership in the world? Look to Britain, yes, but doesn't have the power. You look to the
United States. So thank God there's an evangelical streak there, wanting to do something, wanting to
come to the rescue of people being murdered and genocide. Well,

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Hold on Harry <laugh>. I mean, for goodness sake, a lot that's happening in Rwanda to do with countries
other than the states. And if you want to play the bit, I mean, America's done good things, but this is
where I think your book, uh, is open to question. Uh, you could say, what did they do in Yugoslavia? I
mean, more than Europe did, but there's the, the, there isn't a great deal done. There's good and bad in
it. I mean, what what worries me is that, that you are, you are more than half in hop to idealism. I mean,
the track record of, of America in, in Latin America, for instance, is not good. Now you admit that, but
then you sort of pass on very quickly. I just wanna try to come to the core of it. The core of it seems to
me you are saying that what's going on there is a, a massive, and you also think this is slightly
benevolent materialism, greedy is good and greed can be good for you.
(10:42):
And the, a lot of your tables say people are living twice as long as they did a hundred years ago, making
$5 as much money, eating $20 as much food, and so on and so forth. Same time you're saying the ideals
of the republic are tremendous ideals. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the ideals of freedom and democracy
and opportunity. And these ideals are sustained despite all the battering, uh, that circumstances give
them. And yet at the same time, there's, there's terrible problems of educational system, tremendous
problems with black people, uh, almost slave labour in California for the Mexicans working behind Barb
wire and so on and so forth. Now, I would like to discuss that because that seems to me to be the core
of America and the core of the take. So can you address that, John,

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Please? Yeah. It's, it's, it is, it's, it's tremendous interest that you begin by the first chapter. Dude, I think
one of the first pictures in the book is of legalised theft and genocide of the Native Americans. That
right. And, and then you end at the very end of the book, the kind of the the last essay as it were, you
say politics, I'm not quoting exactly. Politics began under the domination of money began this century
under the domination of money and ends this century under the domination of money. So, you know
what, what has changed in between that? Yes. And while of course we no longer have that kind of
assumption that the white races can simply suppress the red or the black still, as Melvin reminds us, and
as you remind us, you have, um, kind of slave labour allowed by the state and not intervened. So you
have this, this enormous passionate democracy. Yes, everyone's speaking all the time, uh, in different
voices. And you have this enormous and passionate desire to do good, both, both at home and abroad.

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 4 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

And yet, and yet some of the, some of the crimes of this past century or century and a half, I guess, both
on the black and red people are still there atoned for partly but still ingrained in the society. Yeah,

Speaker 2 (12:28):
That's all. That's correct. All that's great. What I've never argued, and in fact at the very end of the book,
I say America is not some kind of millennia, not some utopia of the kind that the fascist and totalitarian
society has constructed. America is a rough, rough, ongoing democracy full of compromise, pragmatism
full of, uh, corruption in many areas. You, it's term democracy. There's less than 50% of the people
voted. Well, I know, but they have the opportunity to vote. At the beginning of the century, they didn't
have it. Uh, the movement of of from exclusion to inclusion of the black people. I mean, I was there in
the fifties and I saw the terrible condition. I said, we would never have any problems like that in
England. I said, we would welcome black people. We'd never have any racial discrimination in England. I
was totally wrong, of course, because in fact, as we know, it's been a struggle to preserve the rights of
black people and the dignity of black people here.
(13:18):
And I saw it's been on a different scale as you yourself, different scale isn't there on a different, and
English tolerance is and is pretty impressive. But I saw that in the fifties, what they were going through,
and I've seen them come out of it now. The situation is transformed. I live with the Indians in the West.
Again, the situation's transformed. It is not perfect and it never will be perfect. But the point that I keep
trying to make all the time is that because of the Bill of Rights and the aspirations of the society, they're
always continually trying and expecting people to behave better than they often do.

Speaker 3 (13:49):
When I was reading this book, just finishing it, I always, I, I read a review that Norman Miller did in the
New York review of books of Tom Wolf's new book, A Manon Fool. And Miller Characteristically put
himself first, quoted himself as as saying, and then quoted Wolf was agreeing with him saying that, um,
American novels have never been able, like say Toto did for Russia, had never been able to sum up
America. It was just too diverse. It was left in a way to journalism. Miller says it was left to the loose
magazines. Um, you are where our distinguished journalists mean. Do you feel that about America? That
that it, it really took journalism, muck, raking, uh, investigative descriptive, an analytical essay
journalism to do justice to this. And is it still doing it? In other words, is the media still doing justice to
America in a way that that writers can't?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
I think journalism, I, I wouldn't agree with him mentality because I think something like John Dos Pastas
USA or Steinbeck Grapes of Wrath or Tom Wolf today, uh, fiction and literature can actually give us a
sense of this great sprawling beast of a country. And I think journalism makes its contribution. I think
Norman's being a little provocative there. One thing I wanna say about my book incidentally, since
you're both being so intellectual about it, is it's really a book of stories. I don't actually tell people what
to think. I tell them hundreds and hundreds of stories about people, not people, not

Speaker 3 (15:07):
True. I'm sorry, your essays are one of the glories of it. I mean, I think you're doing yourself injustice.
One thing is some of your essays say, this is what to think, <laugh>, this is, this shouldn't have happened.

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 5 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

At one point you say, and I could of started a bit, you said this should not have happened. Yes. So you
are quite polemical at times. And you say you read 5,000 books. I believe you, yes. I mean there's an

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Stories, every president gets his story and the stories of, of folks who've never heard of who got thrown
out of the FBI for doing their job too. Well, who invented this? Who did this full of, I, I wanna get to
some of the basic ideas. If we talking about American in the 20th century, it's very interesting. We
haven't got all that much time. Let's take to a few of the ideas and see how they're tested now. Okay?
Right. Let's start with democracy. How is democracy doing in the states? Is it a real democracy? Is it a
democracy that should transfer, can transfer is capable of growth? Where is it? Because a lot of people
think it's abor democracy. It's a democracy in Hawk, it's a stunted democracy and it's going backwards,
not forwards. I'm just playing the devil's advocate.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Go rights to play. I mean, the, I worry, as John has pointed out quite rightly, the the bookend is money.
Money and, uh, the fact that they have to pay for television advertising. So they have to spend all their
time between elections, raising money for television advertising, that the advertising is appalling and
negative, a terrible thing. The fact that so few people vote is another terrible thing. The, the, the
American democracy is now plagued by the system of an independent council, which is the corruption of
the constitution and is disturbing the delicate balance of power, which exists. These are really serious
problems. Uh, I don't, uh, as I keep saying wish to present America some kind of divine, I'm highly critical
of the, of the, uh, what's happening. And the English democracy is actually better in the sense of it. No,
it is controlled money better. I

Speaker 1 (16:54):
I don't really wanna run it. I really don't want to run America down. Now isn't the point of the question. I
just wanna find out about it. I'm find out you two people spend your time looking at these things. I do to
a lesser extent. Just see where he is now. I mean, America is the most powerful country in the world.
America is the richest country world. America is the most influential country in the world. So what is it?
Where are its set? You will talk a lot about his beliefs. It's one of the dry, it's the, it's the statement of
this book. Now where are they? I mean, how strong are they? What do you think about American
democracy, John? Well,

Speaker 3 (17:23):
That, that I was gonna invite Harry to do what he does a lot in the book is to, is to relate the past to the
present. You constantly, it's very good. You sort of in the middle of discussing the depression, you then
flip forward to the past and say, what does this say about government intervention? And I, I'd like to do
that where you've finished the book really before you could grapple with Clinton. And just to invite you
to do so, one of the things to pick up Melbourne's point about where is the nature of democracy, the
watching, what's happening to Clinton now indeed right now. Cause it's now possibly going to be in, uh,
indicted, indicted for impeachment again, that, um, how far is this man a victim, one of the, perhaps the
first victim, um, who's at the pinnacle of political power, but is the victim of other forces like an over
prying media and how far does that impact on American whatnot, or how far is he simply a helpless
poem, as many say in the hands of the people you describe as being increasingly powerful? The
lobbyists, the people with the money?

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 6 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, I think he's a victim partly of, of a very dangerous undercurrent in America. And in this case, of
course, the right wing is being given a perfect opportunity by Clinton's deplorable conduct in the White
House in lying and, and and sexual misconduct. And so that's enabled people who resent his welfare
capitalism, his intervention is capitalism to attack him on moral grounds when they really want to attack
him on economic grounds. Cause they do not like.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
But actually the bigger point though, what does it say about American democracy? I mean, does it say
that American democracy is actually the fig leaf of idealism and behind it is this sort of, uh, fist of power
that the fist of power is money and the power of the great corporate is, I'm being very crude, but I'm
trying to come to the point here,

Speaker 2 (19:04):
Tell you one thing which is very important about American democracy, which is the freedom of the
press that I've gone on about in this country for a long time. Calling it the half free press may be you are
three quarters free now. And although it's true, as you indicated that in, I think John did in in Clinton's
case, he's been hounded by a aian press. Nonetheless, the freedom of the American press is very
important. It's essential part of the democracy. It's something will be that, that that is held to task. And
the press generally, although I've really got a lot of problems with the television, does tend to hold the
country up to the ideals of that bill of rights that comes back time and time again. Are we being true?
Are we life, liberty, equality, the pursuit of happiness? And that constant reminder I think's very

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Useful, but you make the same point. You see, it's, it's, I mean this is one of the interesting things about
the book. You say that, but then post-Watergate, as John Lloyd indicated, like him to take this up, uh,
the press does hold up the ideas even your the American television is your suspicious of, they constantly
remind America of its ideals and it's very moving if you are a British person. Cause we don't hand on
heart in that way. We maybe take it too much for granted. So, but at the same time, post-Watergate,
the press has become so intrusive your word, uh, so demanding of the private lives of people concerned
and perhaps so important to the great corporations because the press don't come out of the political
nowhere they are owned. Are they the guardians or are they the, or are they the predators? John,

Speaker 3 (20:27):
This is, I think this is what I was trying to get at. And actually you are a tremendously good man since to
talk about this, since you had your fight with Rupert Murdoch. Now Rupert Murdoch is a, a great deal
more powerful than he was in in in your day. That's exactly right. And perhaps less intrusive in a detailed
way. But but but a man who can now move governments. Right. Allegedly like our own here, right. Uh,
who can decide whether or not China gets uh, free information, uh, or not? Uh, I mean he, and in a
corporation sense, the media is, is hugely important. And as Melbourne says, they have abolished
private life. <laugh> uhhuh certainly for the chief executive. And if it's for the Chief executive American,
it's for everybody else. I

Speaker 2 (21:07):
Deplore that. I really deplore that.

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 7 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah. It's in the name of freedom

Speaker 2 (21:10):
And it's in the name of freedom.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
So what does that say about your free press?

Speaker 2 (21:13):
Well it says, you know, I believe that it will have to control itself voluntarily. If you look now at the Ross,
you might have been

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Hell of that

Speaker 2 (21:18):
Happening. Yes. Because uh, if I started now, we would never get through the programme. If I name the
number of distinguished editors and journalists who are expressing concern about it. And out of this I
think will come some self reform. I think there'll be a self-correction that often happens in America.
America as I've said somewhere has volatile gusts of opinion and it's very, it's, it's going forward. But
lurching left and right and this kind of like a giant fights way through a maze, you know, and I think that
will occur with the past. I really deplore what's been happening. It's, it's very hard to go into private life
now. The slightest indiscretion from the past, maybe you put a uh, a 50 piece stamp on it should have
been a a dollar stamp. And that's found out by some surveillance method. And so you're now exposed as
cheating on, on the American government or maybe you've, you winked an eye at some woman in 25
years ago that is all liable to be brought up and and deny you public office who wants public office when
there's no money in it. And all you get is em embarrassment. I think that's a really serious danger for
Americas the quality of leadership that's emerging. God

Speaker 3 (22:17):
Knows the British players can't be uh, can't be exonerated from that kind of journalism. Indeed in some
ways we are worse and we haven't got the corrective I think the American press have, which is a very
strong investigative tradition which continues. Uh, and which here has been, has been, has been quite
gravely weakened.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yes. One of the things both of you talk about, you volunteered at John and it's in your book, Harry is the
American can-do will solve, will make better thing, but that's not happening. Is it happening? Tell me
that. Is that happening in any ways It should with large sections of the population, the 11% plaques, the
increasing percentage of Mexicans and so on and so forth.

Speaker 2 (22:54):

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 8 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Well I think they've all come and they have inherited that can-do spread and I think things are gonna
change dramatically with the web. You know, America, one of the reasons I think America's gonna
flourish in the next century too is the publicity density and fity of the information systems and the, the
web and the net. And it's making a curious kind of new kind of democracies emerging with that
everybody's joining in. And don't forget America's gonna be the first country in the world, I think in
which everybody will be in a minority. There's no going to be no white domination, no black domination,
no Mexican domination and the 11% Mexicans or whatever it percentage you chose there, I think still
identify with the aspirations, not just with the material prosperity.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
But one of the things you say there, and one of the things that you referred to it partly before is that you
hate this thing of everybody body being in their ghetto. And liberals you say from the seventies onwards
intensified that by making everything in a matter of quota. Now do you think that one of the great
things about America was a melting pot? Is it gonna melt

Speaker 2 (23:55):
Again? Well I think that's very, I think one of the dangerous things which is happening is minority
preference. Because now in the old days, if you were an Italian or German or Russian, whatever it was,
you wanted to identify the community, speak the language and so on and so, and you had to do because
there was a real penalty if you didn't. Now if you maintain a minority status, you get preference. So
you've just come in, let's say from Guatemala, you now get the minority preference ranking that was
won by blacks through years of ordeals. That minority preference was awarded because of past
discrimination. There's no past. So these people have an incentive to stay apart and not melt.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
We're coming to our end, the programme unfortunately. And I just wanna sort of get back to one or two
other. If it's the American century, what is it giving to the next century? What is it the model for?

Speaker 2 (24:40):
Well I think it's a model and there's again, some tension here. It's certainly a model for economic
libertarianism, which nobody can deny has been an enormous success. But it's also a model for political
idealism as well as economic libertarianism. The tension between social conservatism and economic
libertarianism has been worked out day to day argument to argument. I think it's very fascinating.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
What do you think is the model for John?

Speaker 3 (25:04):
I think it is part of that. I think it can stand as a, as a model of freedom, uh, in every sense. Uh, I, what I
hope is that it will export it less if you like, promiscuously. By, by which I mean I think that you can't
impose, and we've seen this in the last decade of you like the post-communist decade. You can't impose
a model of economic liberty on, on countries which are struggling to get out of decades. Indeed. Some
cases, centuries of photography. I

Speaker 2 (25:31):

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 9 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Agree with that. Totally. Cause the Russia is now going, is it back with the capitalism of 1889
unregulated capital. But let's just take a wider view of the world. Where are we gonna get leadership
against dictatorship, against exploitation, against genocide? We and the United States is immensely
powerful. Let's hope it stays looking out on the world and not we treat to isolationism.

Speaker 1 (25:51):
We haven't time to explore this firm. But often Harry America's been on the side of dictatorship. Of
course he's been on the side of gen and I've, America began in genocide. Unfortunately,

Speaker 2 (26:00):
I've explored all that and I'm really highly critical of what happened in Vietnam and the CIA COOs in
Chile, PK and Guatemala.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
But your book is optimistic. Let's finish on an optimistic and not a cherish note. There's nothing cherish
about the book at all in, but you conclude that quote, Americans best understand the paradox that if
anything is to be preserved, it must change the possibility of reason change that gives life to democracy.
Obviously you believe that. Can you see it happening now in the America, you of which you are to my
astonishment a citizen?

Speaker 2 (26:30):
Well, I keep, you keep coming back to that point. Uh, the, the point is, uh, I suppose the English answer
would be, I'm my doubts. And I suppose the American answer would be, I'm sure it will happen.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
John Lloyd, what's your answer on that?

Speaker 3 (26:42):
I think I, I agree with you. I hope I I think it will happen. I also hope it will happen. I share with you the
view that we Europeans have so far. I hope it changes the next century. Have so far not lived up to our
latent power in others. We haven't taken enough of a hand in, in running the world for freedom. It's
down to the Americans with all their faults and all their virtues.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
That's, that's a really good thought when it brings us back to the beginning of the programme. Cuz
actually we, Europeans have, but we've decided to do it in America up to now. <laugh>. Maybe we'll do
it in Europe in the next century. No, I'd love, I'd love to. We have European statue,

Speaker 2 (27:16):
European culture and the ideals of Europe to flourish and triumph. And as John said, they've not been
cohesive enough yet. I'm looking forward to that day when it happens.

Speaker 1 (27:24):

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 10 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com
This transcript was exported on May 24, 2023 - view latest version here.

Thank you very much to Harold Evans, his book at the American Century. You need to do Precep to hold
it, but it's very well worth the holding. And thanks to John Lloyd. Next week my guests will be Susan
Greenfield and vs Ramachandran. And we'll be discussing the developments at the cutting edge of
neuroscience as we approach the end of the century. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 4 (27:42):
We hope you've enjoyed this Radio four podcast. You can find hundreds of other programmes about
history, science, and philosophy@bbc.co uk slash radio four.

InOurTime-19981217-TheAmericanCentury (Completed 05/24/23) Page 11 of 11

Transcript by Rev.com