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1 STATEMENT UNDER OATH

2 OF

3 ANTHONY TYRONE JONES

5 taken pursuant to Notice by Wendy

6 Blair, a Court Reporter and Notary

7 Public in and for the Commonwealth of

8 Pennsylvania, at the SCI-Forest,

9 286 Woodland Drive, P.O. Box 307,

10 Visiting Room Conference Area,

11 Marienville, Pennsylvania, on Friday,

12 July 29, 2016, beginning at 9:47 a.m.

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23 Any reproduction of this transcript is

24 prohibited without authorization by

25 the certifying agency.

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1 A P P E A R A N C E S

3 MICHAEL J. MALLOY, ESQUIRE

4 10 Veterans Square

5 Media, PA 19063

6 COUNSEL FOR LEROY EVANS

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1 I N D E X

4 WITNESS: ANTHONY TYRONE JONES

5 EXAMINATION

6 By Attorney Malloy 6 - 71

7 CERTIFICATE 72

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 6
1 P R O C E E D I N G S

2 --------------------------------------

3 ANTHONY TYRONE JONES, HAVING FIRST

4 BEEN DULY SWORN, TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

5 --------------------------------------

6 EXAMINATION

7 BY ATTORNEY MALLOY:

8 Q. Okay. Anthony, just for the

9 record, my name is Michael Malloy and

10 I represent Leroy Evans. And you know

11 Leroy Evans, because he was a

12 Codefendant in a case of yours back in

13 1980; correct?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Just so you know, he's my

16 client. And you were Codefendants

17 back then; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And I'm here to speak to you

20 about that case. And that case is

21 about the murder of what was then

22 called the Avon lady, also known as

23 Mrs. Leo; right?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. And I spoke to you briefly over

 7
1 the phone before we came up about a

2 week ago; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And at that time you indicated

5 to me that you would agree to give a

6 statement as to that crime; correct?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And you certainly know that if

9 in any way that you did not want to

10 give that statement, and if you wanted

11 to have a lawyer, we would stop this

12 right here and now; correct?

13 A. Yes.

14 Q. But it's your desire to give

15 that statement?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. So let's begin. And I guess we

18 can clarify for the record. I think

19 what's going to happen here is my

20 client, Leroy Evans, is known to you

21 by June, J-U-N-E; correct?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. So at times here when we speak,

24 you or I use the term June, we're

25 talking about Leroy Evans; correct?

 8
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And do you have a nickname from

3 back in the day?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. Okay. What is that?

6 A. Bus.

7 Q. Bus. Okay. They refer to you

8 as Bus; correct?

9 A. Yeah.

10 Q. All right. So back in 1980 ---

11 and I believe it was November of

12 1980 ---? I believe it was

13 November ---

14 A. 11th.

15 Q. --- 11th of 1980; correct?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. That's the date that the murder

18 occurred; correct?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. And Mrs. Leo was her name,

21 right, ---

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. --- I believe?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And she was really commonly

 9
1 referred to as the Avon lady?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And back then in 1980, November

4 of 1980, where did you live?

5 A. I think it was 3011 West 22nd

6 Street.

7 Q. It's been some time, huh?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. Who were you living with back

10 then?

11 A. My mom.

12 Q. Anybody else live in that

13 house?

14 A. Sisters and brothers.

15 Q. And were you the oldest,

16 youngest?

17 A. Oldest.

18 Q. How many sisters and brothers?

19 A. Three sisters and three

20 brothers.

21 Q. Before November 11th, 1980, had

22 you known Mrs. Leo, the Avon lady?

23 A. Not personally.

24 Q. Okay. But did you know who she

25 was?
 10
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. And so on November 11th, 1980,

3 when the murder took place, had you

4 seen Mrs. Leo the day or so before?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. So tell us what happened when

7 you saw her the day before. Where did

8 you see her?

9 A. I seen her like I think the

10 night before at my girlfriend's house.

11 Q. Okay. And what was she doing

12 then?

13 A. Selling product.

14 Q. And how old were you then, 17?

15 A. No, about 16, ---

16 Q. Okay.

17 A. --- turning 17.

18 Q. And so the Avon lady was at

19 your girlfriend's house selling

20 product; correct?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. Who else was there, the best

23 that you can remember?

24 A. My girlfriend, her mother and I

25 can't remember who else.

 11
1 Q. And was your mother there?

2 A. No.

3 Q. Did you observe anything that

4 night that made you want to make

5 contact with the Avon lady the next

6 day? Did you tell me you saw her with

7 cash?

8 A. Yes.

9 Q. And so she was selling product

10 and people were paying her in cash?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And so did you ---? How did

13 she come over to your house in

14 November? How did she, Mrs. Leo, come

15 over to your house on November 11th,

16 1980?

17 A. Because I had called her.

18 Q. Why did you call? What was

19 your intent to do that day?

20 A. Rob her.

21 Q. And when you placed the call,

22 you placed it from your house?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Okay. Were you alone when you

25 made that call?

 12
1 A. Yes.

2 Q. Prior to making that call, did

3 you discuss with anyone, anyone, June

4 or anyone that you were going to rob

5 the Avon lady?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Did anyone know that you were

8 going to rob the Avon lady?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Had you seen June that day

11 before you called the Avon lady?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Where did you see June

14 that day?

15 A. We probably was like outside in

16 front of my house or in front of his

17 house.

18 Q. Where did June live in relation

19 to you?

20 A. He lived right across the

21 walkway.

22 Q. Okay. And so did he know at

23 all that the Avon lady was coming

24 there that day?

25 A. No.
 13
1 Q. So you call the Avon lady and

2 she comes that day. Hold on one

3 second. One second here. And what

4 time of day does she come, if you

5 remember?

6 A. It was in the morning time.

7 Q. Okay. And so when she comes,

8 what happens? I mean, walk me through

9 it, if you can. Did she knock on the

10 door? Were you standing there waiting

11 for her? What happens that day?

12 A. I was at the house and she had

13 knocked on the front door. And then I

14 had told her that the front door was

15 stuck and she had to go to the back

16 door.

17 Q. Why did you do that?

18 A. Because I ain't really want

19 nobody to see her coming through the

20 front door.

21 Q. Okay. And so when she comes

22 around to the back of your house. How

23 did she do that?

24 A. She just walked right around

25 the house.
 14
1 Q. Okay. Like there's a little

2 side alley on the side of the house?

3 A. Not even no alley.

4 Q. And so in the back of the

5 house ---. She comes to the back;

6 right?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And do you let her in then?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. And the back end of the house,

11 is that where the kitchen is?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Okay. Do you recognize the

14 phone number of 497-3548? If you

15 do --- you don't ---. I mean, I just

16 ask you that question. I'll write it

17 down for you. Back then I don't

18 believe ---. Do you recognize that

19 number?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Okay. So when she comes in,

22 what happens after she comes in?

23 A. Well, when she had came in, we

24 started talking, things of that

25 nature. I told her that I wanted to

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1 buy some stuff, this that and third.

2 And she had pulled out samples and

3 stuff like that. And then when she

4 had turned around I had punched her.

5 Q. When she turned, you did what

6 to her?

7 A. Punched her.

8 Q. Okay. And where was this all

9 taking place? Was she standing? Was

10 she sitting or what was happening at

11 that point in time?

12 A. I am pretty much sure she was

13 standing, because she had got up from

14 the kitchen table to go in her bag and

15 stuff like that to put stuff up.

16 Q. Okay. So she had a bag of

17 samples and then she was getting them

18 up and showing them to you; correct?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. And then you hit her?

21 A. Right.

22 Q. What happened after you hit

23 her? What happened to her?

24 A. She had fell down. She had

25 fell down. She was knocked out.

 16
1 Q. Okay. Do you know whether she

2 got knocked out ---? If you know, do

3 you know if she got knocked out by

4 your punch or when she hit the floor?

5 A. No.

6 Q. Okay. Is Leroy there, or June,

7 is he there at this time?

8 A. No.

9 Q. So still nobody has any idea

10 what's going on in that house but you?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. And so what happened

13 after she's on the floor knocked out?

14 What happened next?

15 A. I then picked everything up

16 to ---.

17 Q. Picked what up?

18 A. A wallet, pocketbook and a

19 magazine that she had.

20 Q. Okay. What did you do with

21 them?

22 A. I had set it in the living

23 room.

24 Q. And did she remain unconscious

25 or knocked out?
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1 A. Yeah, for a while.

2 Q. Okay. And did you take any

3 money out of the wallet or pocketbook?

4 A. No, not at that time.

5 Q. Okay. Did you eventually take

6 money out of the pocketbook?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. We will get to that later.

9 Okay.

10 A. Okay.

11 Q. So what happens after that,

12 after you take her stuff? She had an

13 order book or a receipt book, you took

14 all that stuff and you ---

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. --- took it over and moved it

17 to the living room; correct?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And then she's still on the

20 kitchen floor?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And then what happens?

23 OFF RECORD DISCUSSION

24 BY ATTORNEY MALLOY:

25 Q. And then she's still on the

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1 kitchen floor?

2 A. Yes.

3 Q. And then what happens?

4 A. She was still like knocked out.

5 And then I was panicking and didn't

6 know what to do. And I had looked out

7 the back door to see if anybody seen

8 that she came in. And then I had

9 grabbed --- broke a piece of rope off,

10 because we had the clothesline back

11 right as you open up the door, the

12 back door.

13 Q. When you say you broke a piece

14 of rope, we're talking about a white

15 clothesline?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. How did you do that? I mean,

18 tell me, how did you break it, the

19 line, with scissors or whatever?

20 A. No, it was ---. It was like an

21 old like clothesline. And it was like

22 real frail and I just wrapped it

23 around my hand a little bit, about

24 five or six times and I just took it

25 and pulled it (indicating) and yanked

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1 it and it popped off.

2 Q. Okay. Just so the record

3 shows, you just showed me --- you

4 showed me that you made a motion with

5 your hand with your right hand going

6 in a circle; correct?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And I gather you panic because,

9 obviously Mrs. Leo knew who you were;

10 right?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Well, she knew the house and

13 she knew --- she would know you from

14 the girlfriend's house the night

15 before; right?

16 A. I don't really think so. I

17 really don't think she paid any

18 attention, ---

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. --- because I wasn't like in

21 the room they was in, in the house.

22 Q. So then what happens? What do

23 you do with the clothesline?

24 A. I end up choking her.

25 Q. And how long ---? Was she

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1 awake when you were choking her? Did

2 she wake up at any time?

3 A. Yeah, she was waking up at the

4 time, and that's why --- when I had

5 got the rope.

6 Q. So was she waking up and then

7 you went out and got rope or did you

8 get the rope and come back when she

9 was waking up? If you remember.

10 A. I think it was before.

11 Q. Okay.

12 A. Before.

13 Q. And so you come back and you

14 choke her?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And what happens when you choke

17 her?

18 A. I choked her with the rope.

19 And I thought she ---. I thought she

20 was dead.

21 Q. So it looks like you chocked

22 her to death; right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Now, this is really important.

25 You know, when you testified at trial,

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1 it was a different story; right, at

2 the trial in June in 1980?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And there was talk about June

5 hit her with an iron; right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And that happened in the

8 kitchen; right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. That's what the testimony was?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And there would be blood on the

13 floor. Was there any blood on the

14 floor with ---? Was there any ---?

15 A. There was a little bit of

16 blood.

17 Q. Okay. And when you say a

18 little bit, I mean, do you mean ---?

19 Could you see where she was bleeding

20 from?

21 A. I think it was from her nose.

22 Q. When you say a little bit, you

23 know, could you turn ---? Was it like

24 the size of a circle, was it a small

25 circle, a large circle or ---?

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1 A. No, it was a nice little bit,

2 because the nose was bleeding from

3 when I hit her.

4 Q. Okay.

5 A. It wasn't like no pool of blood

6 or nothing like that.

7 Q. So it was a relatively small

8 amount of blood?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And so you then think she's

11 dead; right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. And then what do you at this

14 point? Anybody else in the house?

15 A. No.

16 Q. June, Leroy, have any idea

17 what's going on in the house?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So what do you do next?

20 A. When I had choked her, I

21 thought that she was dead and I

22 started panicking. And I didn't know

23 what to do. And so I looked out the

24 door again. And I was saying to

25 myself that I had to get her out of

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1 the house.

2 Q. Okay. So what did you do?

3 A. I went outside and I got a

4 trash can and I put her in the trash

5 can and took her like about a hundred

6 yards away from where I live at. It

7 was this open field.

8 Q. Open field by like some kind of

9 a mini mart?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Then what happens when you take

12 her ---? So do you drag what you

13 think is a dead body up to the open

14 field; right?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And then what happens when you

17 got to the open field?

18 A. Then when I took the trash can,

19 I laid it down and pulled it off of

20 her. And I was getting ready to leave

21 and go back and then ---.

22 Q. So she's out of the trash can

23 now?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. So what happens now?

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1 A. And then after I take her out

2 of the trash can, laid the trash can

3 down and take it out and ready to go

4 back to my house and then I seen that

5 she was like still living.

6 Q. And then what did you do?

7 A. Then there was some rocks

8 around and I picked the rock up and I

9 hit her.

10 Q. Where did you hit her? Did you

11 hit her a couple of times?

12 A. Yeah.

13 Q. Where?

14 A. In the head area.

15 Q. Head?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. So at trial I believe there was

18 testimony that the iron hit her, by

19 June. That's not true; right?

20 A. No.

21 Q. So the hole in her head was

22 caused by what, the rocks that you

23 threw?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Or hit her with?

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1 A. Yeah.

2 Q. Now she is bleeding; right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And then do you remember ---?

5 I guess this is crazy to ask you, but

6 do you remember how many times you hit

7 her? Probably didn't keep count, did

8 you?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you hit her to a point

11 where she looks like she's going to

12 die again?

13 A. Well, I didn't really take

14 note.

15 Q. But you hit her a lot?

16 A. Yeah, it was a couple times.

17 Q. Were there bricks there in

18 addition to rocks?

19 A. Yes.

20 Q. Did you use the large bricks to

21 hit her with?

22 A. Yeah, they was kind of big.

23 Q. Huh?

24 A. It was kind of big.

25 Q. Regular size bricks; right?

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1 A. Right.

2 Q. So that's what you were using,

3 the bricks that were in there?

4 A. Yeah. It was like --- not

5 bricks. It was like a round rock. It

6 wasn't like square brick like that, it

7 was just round.

8 Q. I'm trying to get the

9 difference between whether it was

10 something that's used in building,

11 like a brick or was it just a rock

12 that's on the ground?

13 A. Yeah, it was a big rock, round

14 rocks.

15 Q. Okay.

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. And there was testimony at the

18 trial that people saw you throwing

19 bricks at her. Did you ever throw

20 bricks at her?

21 A. Yeah, that's what I was doing.

22 They probably said bricks, but I just

23 call it a rock.

24 Q. Okay. That's fine. So let's

25 stop there for a second. So the

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1 testimony at trial was completely

2 different; correct?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. I mean, your testimony at

5 trial; correct?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And your testimony at trial was

8 that Leroy and you were in this

9 together; correct?

10 A. Yes.

11 Q. And that Leroy was the one that

12 actually threw the fatal blow with the

13 iron and choked her; right?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Is that true or not?

16 A. No.

17 Q. As your testimony at trial true

18 or not?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Was it false?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. And did Leroy, or June, have

23 any idea of what happened in that

24 house?

25 A. No.
 28
1 Q. Did Leroy, or June, have any

2 idea what had happened at that empty

3 lot?

4 A. No.

5 Q. And how long had you known

6 June?

7 A. I mean, I think like four, five

8 years.

9 Q. Was he your age or younger or

10 older?

11 A. No, he was older.

12 Q. And so let's go back now to the

13 time that --- the rocks. You're

14 hitting her with the rocks --- on the

15 ground. She's not in the trash can,

16 she's on the ground; right?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. I gather your purpose is really

19 to kill her at that point in time, so

20 she can't identify you?

21 A. I don't know what I was doing.

22 Q. You just was panicking?

23 A. Yeah.

24 Q. Okay. Probably the best way to

25 say it. And what happens at that

 29
1 point, when you're hitting her in the

2 head?

3 A. Well, at ---.

4 Q. What makes you stop?

5 A. Well, I just threw it. Picked

6 it up and threw it a couple of times.

7 And then I didn't see no movement and

8 then I just started walking.

9 Q. Did you ever ---? When you say

10 you threw it, do you ever actually

11 hold the rocks or whatever you want to

12 call them and hit her with it ---

13 directly hit her in the head with it?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So you're just throwing rocks

16 at her head?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And so then what happens after?

19 A. After that?

20 Q. After that, yeah.

21 A. I picked the trash can up and I

22 went home.

23 Q. Take the trash can home?

24 A. Yeah.

25 Q. Okay. Do you remember people

 30
1 yelling?

2 A. Not when I went home. That was

3 after. That was time after I had

4 walked ---. I had walked home,

5 everything was good. And I had my dog

6 with me at the same time. And so I

7 guess when a man in the truck seen

8 that I was throwing something when the

9 lady tried to get up, he must have

10 called the police and told them that I

11 had a dog, too.

12 Q. So the dog was with you at the

13 house?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. Did the dog go with you to the

16 lot?

17 A. Right.

18 Q. And did the dog follow you back

19 home?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. So what you're saying that when

22 you were at the lot stoning her,

23 nobody said anything to you at that

24 point? You don't remember anybody

25 yelling then?
 31
1 A. No.

2 Q. So when you left, you took the

3 trash can back, thinking that you had

4 gotten out of the situation? In your

5 head at the time; right?

6 A. Right. Because I didn't know

7 nothing about nobody in no truck

8 either.

9 Q. That's what I'm saying, at that

10 time; right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And so you bring the trash can

13 back. Do you clean up the trash can

14 in any sort? By that, is there blood

15 in the trash can? If you remember.

16 A. I don't know. I didn't clean

17 it up, the trash can.

18 Q. Okay. But other than her

19 falling and the small amount of blood

20 from her nose, when you put her in the

21 trash can, there wasn't a lot of

22 blood; right?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. Again, the story that you told

25 at trial ---. The testimony at trial

 32
1 was that she was bleeding a lot out of

2 the side of her head. And I think the

3 phrase was at trial there was blood

4 everywhere in the kitchen; right? If

5 you remember.

6 A. I don't really remember.

7 Q. But there was no blood in the

8 kitchen; right?

9 A. No.

10 Q. And there was certainly no

11 blood on the iron, because the iron

12 wasn't used; right?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. And then there would be little

15 or no blood in the trash can because

16 you thought you strangled her to death

17 at that point?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. And the stoning had happened

20 when she was out of the trash can;

21 right?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. So after you go home and then

24 what do you do? What happens next?

25 A. Well, I went home, I took all

 33
1 of the stuff.

2 Q. What does that mean?

3 A. I went home, I cleaned up the

4 floor.

5 Q. How?

6 A. I cleaned up whatever blood

7 that was on the kitchen floor. Then I

8 took all the stuff that I had put on

9 the couch and I took that in my

10 room and put it in the closet.

11 Q. Okay. I gather it didn't take

12 long to clean up the blood, ---

13 A. Right.

14 Q. --- because there was not much

15 there; right?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Took a minute or so; right?

18 A. Yeah, probably a couple of

19 minutes.

20 Q. A couple of minutes, okay.

21 What did you clean it up with?

22 A. It had to be the mop, I think.

23 Q. Where did the mop go? Nobody

24 ever found the mop.

25 A. Should have been there.

 34
1 Q. Yeah.

2 A. I didn't move it.

3 Q. So then you moved her stuff

4 upstairs; right?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. And put it in your closet?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. What else did you do?

9 A. I took my clothes off, put them

10 in the closet and I put some other

11 clothes on.

12 Q. Why did you put your clothes in

13 the closet?

14 A. I don't know, I just changed my

15 clothes.

16 Q. And so then what did you do?

17 A. I came back downstairs ---.

18 No. What I had did was I looked

19 through the stuff and the money that

20 she had. I had took that. As you

21 come up our steps, we had a chest that

22 you open and I took and put the money

23 up under all of the stuff that was in

24 that chest, and all the Avon products

25 was still in my closet.

 35
1 Q. So you put the money in this

2 chest; right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And where was that chest again?

5 A. As soon as you come up the

6 steps.

7 Q. The steps that go to the second

8 floor; right?

9 A. Right. As soon as you come up

10 the steps, we had this chest right

11 there that had like towels and stuff

12 like that in it. By the bathroom, it

13 was sitting on the floor.

14 Q. Okay. Do you remember if they

15 ever found that money?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. They did; right?

18 A. (Indicating yes).

19 Q. They did?

20 A. Yeah.

21 Q. Did they take the money?

22 A. Yeah. Maurice, they said they

23 found money and then Maurice said that

24 that money belonged to my family. And

25 they didn't take it.

 36
1 OFF RECORD DISCUSSION

2 A. They did not take it.

3 BY ATTORNEY MALLOY:

4 Q. Okay. That solves that puzzle.

5 So when they found the money ---?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. It wasn't the police who found

8 the money?

9 A. No.

10 Q. The police did find the money;

11 right?

12 A. When they searched the house.

13 Q. But Maurice told them it was

14 family money not the Avon money?

15 A. He said it was family money.

16 Q. And so?

17 A. And they didn't take it.

18 Q. They couldn't find out where

19 the money was. That's what I was

20 always looking for. I'm only looking

21 for the blood and money. And there's

22 no blood. It really wasn't a bloody

23 scene. And now I know what happened

24 to the money. So then what happened

25 next?
 37
1 A. I put the money in the chest,

2 and then I hear cop sirens and stuff

3 like that. So I didn't think that

4 anybody seen me when I took her to the

5 lot. So I said to myself, let me walk

6 down there or by there and see what

7 was going on and --- see what was

8 going on.

9 So I started walking down

10 there. Then I got ---. There's a

11 street then there's a lot. So I was

12 standing on the other side of the

13 street with everybody. And at the

14 time, my dog was still with me. And

15 so whoever said that they seen

16 somebody there throwing the rock at

17 whoever, they had a dog. So when he

18 gave that statement to the police and

19 then they was just standing there and

20 looking. And just so happen look over

21 my way and seen the dog.

22 And so every time I moved, the

23 dog moved. So they called me like,

24 you come here, we need to talk to you.

25 But they was like about 40, 50 feet

 38
1 away. And then that's when I started

2 running.

3 Q. Was June there, then, when you

4 came back? When you went back up, you

5 know, to the --- to where the police

6 were now, was June there?

7 A. No. He wasn't never out there,

8 none of that, through the whole

9 incident.

10 Q. Well, there came a time when

11 the police chased you; right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. And do you remember people

14 chasing the police?

15 A. Chasing the police?

16 Q. Do you remember that? If you

17 don't remember, you don't

18 remember ---. Do you remember?

19 A. No, I don't remember that.

20 Q. So you just remember the police

21 chasing you and nobody else?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. That's okay. So then somewhere

24 along the line the police come into

25 the house; right?

 39
1 A. Well, they chase me and then I

2 went in the house.

3 Q. Yeah. Right.

4 A. Right.

5 Q. You lock yourself in the house?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And then they're outside asking

8 you to open up the door; right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And somewhere along the line

11 somebody comes into the house, family,

12 relative, your mom, your sister, a

13 friend. Who comes into the house?

14 A. I think it was my mother.

15 Q. She came in before the police,

16 if you remember?

17 A. I can't really remember.

18 Q. Somewhere along the line the

19 police come in; right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. And your original statement

22 that you gave to the police was that

23 you just found the lady in the trash

24 can?

25 A. Say that again?

 40
1 Q. The original statement you gave

2 to police was you just found a lady in

3 a trash can and you didn't know how

4 she got there?

5 A. I don't remember that.

6 Q. If you don't, you don't. Don't

7 take my word, ---

8 A. Yeah.

9 Q. --- take your word. Do you

10 tell the police what happened when

11 they came into your house?

12 A. No.

13 Q. The police eventually arrest

14 you that day or take you to the

15 station?

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. And you were 16 or 17; right?

18 A. Right.

19 Q. When you go to the station, do

20 you know what police officers were

21 there?

22 A. I know one was Commodore

23 Harris, but I don't know who the other

24 one was.

25 OFF RECORD DISCUSSION

 41
1 A. Commodore Harris. But I knew

2 him.

3 BY ATTORNEY MALLOY:

4 Q. How did you know Commodore

5 Harris?

6 A. Because he was friends of my

7 uncle and my family, and I had seen

8 him, and, you know, met him before.

9 Q. Was he a good friend of your

10 family or just an acquaintance?

11 A. I mean, it seemed like they was

12 good friends to me.

13 Q. All right. I'm just asking.

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Was he a friend like, you know,

16 like your parents have, friends that

17 they know and friends that are really

18 friends of there's? You know, was it

19 --- was he just somebody that they

20 knew or was it somebody they

21 considered a friend?

22 A. I think they ---. To me it

23 seemed like to me they considered him

24 a friend.

25 Q. Okay. So what happens when you

 42
1 go down to the station? Who speaks to

2 you? Who are the police officers?

3 A. Commodore Harris, another cop,

4 I can't remember his name.

5 Q. Okay.

6 A. Maurice, my mother.

7 Q. First people that speak to you

8 are the police; right?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And you tell them what

11 happened?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Okay. And then your mother and

14 Maurice speak to you?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Who's Maurice?

17 A. He was my mother's boyfriend at

18 the time.

19 Q. That would be Maurice Green?

20 A. Yes.

21 Q. And do you tell him what

22 happened?

23 A. No.

24 Q. Do you know whether or not June

25 or Leroy was down at the police

 43
1 station that day when you were first

2 taken in?

3 A. No.

4 Q. When the police spoke to you,

5 did they tell you what was going to

6 happen to you, that day at that time?

7 A. No.

8 Q. They were just asking you what

9 happened?

10 A. Right.

11 Q. Okay. And so when did

12 they ---? When did the police or

13 anybody tell you that you were going

14 to get charged with murder? If you

15 remember.

16 A. I think it was like later on.

17 Q. And who told you that?

18 A. Commodore Harris.

19 Q. And did you have a lawyer when

20 he was talking to you about that?

21 A. No.

22 Q. And when he said you were going

23 to be charged with murder, did he talk

24 about anything about a potential

25 penalty, whether it be life in prison

 44
1 or the death penalty? If you

2 remember.

3 A. Not at that time that I can

4 remember.

5 Q. Okay. There came a time where

6 they did talk about the death penalty?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. We'll talk about it in a little

9 bit. So when Commodore Harris told

10 you that you were going to get charged

11 with murder, did you then tell him

12 what happened?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did there come a time ---? You

15 are still in Chester Police Department

16 headquarters, right, ---

17 A. Right.

18 Q. --- when this all took place;

19 right?

20 A. Right.

21 Q. So when they're talking to you,

22 again, they being Commodore Harris and

23 the other police officers, do you have

24 a lawyer?

25 A. No.
 45
1 Q. Do they eventually arrest you

2 and take you to a jail or a juvenile

3 facility?

4 A. Well, I don't remember if they

5 arrested me. I know I went to the

6 juvenile detention center.

7 Q. So you went out to the juvenile

8 detention center in Lima; right?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. So they took you from Chester

11 Police Station to a juvenile detention

12 center; right?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. On the same day; right? If you

15 remember.

16 A. Yes.

17 Q. Did anybody come visit you at

18 the juvenile detention center?

19 A. That day?

20 Q. Yeah, that day.

21 A. No.

22 Q. Did somebody eventually come to

23 talk to you at the juvenile detention

24 center?

25 A. Yeah.
 46
1 Q. Who came to talk to you?

2 A. My family. My family.

3 Q. Your family being who?

4 A. My mother.

5 Q. Anybody else?

6 A. I can't really remember, but I

7 know she was there. She was always

8 there.

9 Q. And did she ---? Did you tell

10 her the story of what happened?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did she mention anything about

13 like the death penalty or anything of

14 that nature? If you remember.

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. What did she mention, if you

17 remember?

18 A. She told me that Commodore

19 Harris and everybody was saying that

20 if I don't let them know what

21 happened, they're going to end up

22 trying to give me the death penalty.

23 Q. When did you ---? When was the

24 first time you gave anybody any

25 statement about this crime?

 47
1 A. I can't really remember, ---

2 Q. Okay.

3 A. I know what I said to them, but

4 I can't remember ---.

5 Q. Forget about that then. When

6 you say, I said it to them, who did

7 you first speak to about this, about

8 what happened?

9 A. It was my mother and some

10 detective.

11 Q. Okay. When did you first tell

12 the story that Leroy was involved, if

13 you remember?

14 A. I think I was at Lima Detention

15 Center.

16 Q. What made you tell them Leroy

17 was involved, when we now know ---?

18 What made you tell them Leroy was

19 involved when we now know that Leroy

20 wasn't involved?

21 A. Because ---

22 Q. What happened? Go ahead.

23 A. --- they was telling me that I

24 was going to get the death penalty.

25 And then they said that Leroy had got

 48
1 locked up for going in the house and

2 taking stuff out of the house. So

3 when they told me that and --- I just

4 said that, you know, he --- he played

5 a part in it, too. Because they kept

6 saying ---. The detectives kept

7 telling me prior that you couldn't

8 have did all this by yourself, this

9 that and third. And so when he had

10 got locked up and I knew that he had

11 got locked up, I just incorporated him

12 to --- to stay away from the death

13 penalty.

14 Q. Did anybody mention Leroy's

15 name to you before you put him in the

16 story, if you remember?

17 A. Said his name?

18 Q. Yeah.

19 A. Yeah, yeah.

20 Q. Who?

21 A. The cops, my family, because

22 they were telling me because he had

23 got locked up.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. And they was asking me what he

 49
1 had to do with it. And then once they

2 kept asking me that, and then when I

3 gave my statement. And that's the

4 reason why I incorporated him with the

5 situation.

6 Q. Okay. The police said he got

7 locked up. Did the police tell you

8 that they thought he was involved?

9 A. They didn't say that he was

10 involved, but they kept telling me

11 that I couldn't have did this by

12 myself.

13 Q. Okay. So then you gave a

14 statement, the statement that you gave

15 about Leroy being involved; right?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. And then you were charged with

18 murder as an adult; right?

19 A. No, I was charged with I think

20 aggravated assault and stuff like

21 that, because --- when I was charged,

22 because she didn't pass away. She was

23 still living at the time.

24 Q. Right. Okay. So somewhere

25 along the line June or Leroy got

 50
1 charged; right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And then somewhere along the

4 line you were called to testify at

5 June's preliminary hearing in Chester;

6 right? Do you remember that?

7 A. I don't think I testified at

8 the preliminary hearing.

9 Q. Right. Yeah. Right. But I

10 guess that's the other question is, is

11 there a reason why you didn't testify

12 at the first preliminary hearing?

13 A. I can't remember.

14 Q. Okay.

15 A. But I'm a hundred percent sure

16 that I never testified against him

17 down at the preliminary hearing down

18 in Chester.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. I think I had made the

21 statement and then I guess they used

22 my statement.

23 Q. Well, the first preliminary

24 hearing was dismissed, because they

25 were unable to go forward without you.

 51
1 And at least my understanding was that

2 you had indicated that you were not

3 going to testify. Do you recall that?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. So there came a point that you

6 told them you were not going to

7 testify against June; right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. And that was after you had

10 given the statement; right?

11 A. Right. The reason why I had

12 told them I wasn't going to testify

13 even before when I made the

14 statement ---. And then I was like,

15 I'm not going to do that because I

16 knew it wasn't true. And then my

17 uncles really played a big part in me

18 testifying because of that

19 relationship that they had with

20 Commodore. And my uncle ---.

21 Q. What uncle is he, can you name

22 him for me?

23 A. My Uncle Charles.

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. And he had a good relationship

 52
1 with him. And he basically, you know,

2 put pressure on my family and on my

3 mom.

4 Q. In what way?

5 A. Was saying that --- you know,

6 that I'm going to get the death

7 penalty and I ain't going to never get

8 out of jail and all that type of

9 stuff. And so that's how ---.

10 Q. When you say that pressure was

11 coming on you from your uncle, from

12 your Uncle ---?

13 A. No, basically from my mother.

14 Q. But from your uncle to your

15 mother?

16 A. Yeah, right.

17 Q. Commodore Harris, to your

18 uncle, to your mother?

19 A. Right.

20 Q. At that point you had already

21 gave the statement?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And now you're saying you

24 didn't want to testify?

25 A. Right.
 53
1 Q. Now the pressure was back on to

2 testify?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. And did you ever submit to any

5 type of blood testing? In other

6 words, did any law enforcement or

7 prosecutor ever ask you for blood

8 samples, if you remember?

9 A. Yeah, I did the DNA thing.

10 Q. You did do that?

11 A. DNA, yes.

12 Q. Do you know the results of that

13 DNA test?

14 A. Huh?

15 Q. Do you know the results of

16 those DNA tests?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Do you know what they were

19 testing?

20 A. I think they was ---. I don't

21 know for sure, but I'm pretty much

22 real sure that they was.

23 Q. I know. Do you know what items

24 they were testing? Do you know what

25 they were testing?

 54
1 A. I know they took hair and they

2 took blood.

3 Q. What I'm saying is, I know

4 that's what they tested from you, they

5 tested your hair and tested your

6 blood?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. But do you know what they

9 matched it against or tried to match

10 it against?

11 A. Oh, I don't know.

12 Q. Okay. How many statements did

13 you give? In other words, we know you

14 gave one written statement. Did you

15 give more than one written statement?

16 If you remember.

17 A. I can't remember.

18 Q. And did you ever have a

19 conversation at any time --- at any

20 time up to and including during trial,

21 with any prosecutor about --- that

22 they would not pursue the death

23 penalty if you testified?

24 A. I can't remember.

25 Q. And you had a lawyer then;

 55
1 right?

2 A. Right.

3 Q. And who was that lawyer?

4 A. I think it was Dignazio

5 (phonetic).

6 Q. Okay. And you're not a ---?

7 Would you have any problems with me

8 speaking to Mr. Dignazio or any lawyer

9 that represented you during this time

10 period?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. So I will have

13 authorizations for you to sign. Let's

14 do that, okay?

15 A. Okay.

16 Q. So after June is found guilty,

17 there comes a time when he files what

18 is known as PCRA petition. And it's

19 my understanding that you then

20 submitted an affidavit saying that he

21 had nothing to do with it; correct?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. It's my understanding that you

24 didn't really give any details about

25 what really happened, you just said he

 56
1 didn't have anything to do with it;

2 right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. You never told anybody the

5 story that you told us today about how

6 it really happened?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. And so at the PCRA hearing you

9 were brought down, down to Delaware

10 County to testify that Leroy had

11 nothing to do with it; right?

12 A. Right.

13 Q. Had you spoken to Leroy's

14 lawyer about that, about what you were

15 going to testify ---? Do you remember

16 the lawyer at the PCRA hearing?

17 A. No.

18 Q. Did you have a lawyer at that

19 hearing?

20 A. No.

21 Q. There came a time where you

22 actually took the stand at that PCRA

23 hearing; right?

24 A. Right.

25 Q. And there came a time for

 57
1 whatever reason you came off the

2 stand; am I right?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. In the middle of your

5 testimony; right?

6 A. Right.

7 Q. And what happened when you came

8 off the stand? What do you remember?

9 A. Well, the District Attorney and

10 them was saying that ---.

11 Q. When you say the District

12 Attorney, where were you? Were you in

13 the courtroom?

14 A. No, I was in the bullpen.

15 Q. The lockups or bullpen; right?

16 A. Right.

17 Q. Do you know what lockup or

18 bullpen that was?

19 A. It was in the courthouse, the

20 upstairs one.

21 Q. You're familiar with the

22 downstairs one and an upstairs one?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. So you were in the upstairs ---

25 A. Right.
 58
1 Q. --- lockup or bullpen?

2 A. Yeah. They kept me separated

3 from Leroy.

4 Q. So what happened when you took

5 a break and you were taken back to

6 that upstairs or second floor lockup?

7 A. After I was in there like about

8 15 minutes, they came in there and

9 told me that, do I know I could get

10 recharged and this and that and the

11 third.

12 Q. They told you about the death

13 penalty?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. When you say they, who's they?

16 A. It was a District Attorney ---

17 the District Attorney.

18 Q. Anybody else?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Do you remember if it was a

21 male or female District Attorney?

22 A. I think it was ---. I'm pretty

23 much real sure it was male.

24 Q. Do you remember the name?

25 A. (Indicating no). No, because I

 59
1 never ---. I never talked to him. I

2 don't ---.

3 Q. Other than when he came back to

4 tell you then, ---

5 A. Right.

6 Q. --- that you ---.

7 A. The only time that I had met

8 him, met anybody that was at the table

9 is when I went to court.

10 Q. Okay. Let me back up a second.

11 The first time you met people at the

12 table, you're talking about the PCRA

13 hearing?

14 A. Right. The people that was

15 sitting at the table for the District

16 Attorney when they brought me in

17 there, I never talked to them before.

18 Q. So you hadn't spoken with any

19 lawyer before they walked you into the

20 hearing --- for the PCRA hearing?

21 A. No.

22 Q. So how about at trial, had you

23 spoken with the District Attorney

24 before you testified at trial?

25 A. No.
 60
1 Q. Just police officers?

2 A. Yeah.

3 Q. I have a couple of questions,

4 okay? Little more specific questions.

5 Way back at the beginning of all this,

6 when you punched her, the Avon lady,

7 Mrs. Leo, was she looking at you? Was

8 her face ---? Was she faced forward

9 or back to you? If you remember.

10 A. She was toward me.

11 Q. Do you remember ---? Are you

12 right-handed or left-handed?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. So you would have hit her on

15 the left side of the head?

16 A. I can't really remember all

17 that.

18 Q. Give me a second here. I need

19 a minute. Did she have a wristwatch

20 on her?

21 A. I can't remember.

22 Q. Do you remember taking her

23 wrist (sic) or anything from her body?

24 You indicated you took her purse. Do

25 you remember taking any jewelry?

 61
1 A. No.

2 Q. Okay. There was a receipt

3 book ---. Now, going back to that

4 number again. In her receipt book,

5 there was a name Eddie Jones. Do you

6 know who Eddie Jones is?

7 A. Probably. It probably was me.

8 Because when I called, I had used ---.

9 I didn't use my real name. I remember

10 that for sure.

11 Q. Okay. Before this all

12 happened, had she ---? Before it all

13 happened, before she got knocked out,

14 had she --- was she taking an order

15 for you? Was she writing anything

16 down? Were you buying anything or was

17 she still just showing you stuff?

18 A. I can't remember.

19 Q. Let me just take a quick

20 look ---. Other than me, have you told

21 anybody else this story, the true

22 story?

23 A. Not the whole story. But I

24 told my mother, because she passed

25 away, that he ain't --- that Leroy had

 62
1 nothing to do with it. Nothing

2 specific, I just told her that.

3 Q. When did she pass away?

4 A. October of '92.

5 Q. So other than telling her that

6 June --- that Leroy had nothing to do

7 with this, the only person you told

8 this story to was me; correct?

9 A. Right.

10 Q. So an obvious question is, so

11 what makes you tell the story? What

12 makes you tell the truth now?

13 A. Well, what's making me tell

14 the ---? Well, I've been trying to,

15 you know, like tell the story, but ---

16 the true story, but at one time, it

17 seemed that it just didn't work out.

18 Q. What do you mean by that?

19 A. As far as when I tried to help,

20 and then it was like ---. I was

21 trying to help him, but at the same

22 time of me trying to help him, it's

23 like people started attacking me and

24 pushing me back in the corner, the

25 same corner that I was in from the

 63
1 beginning.

2 Q. This is at the PCRA hearing?

3 A. Right.

4 Q. So when you tried to --- or

5 began to testify and then they

6 basically bring you all back up again

7 and recharge you with the death

8 penalty?

9 A. Right. It wasn't never nobody

10 saying on both ends --- on both ends

11 saying, just tell the truth. It was

12 never like that. It was when I tried

13 to tell the truth and then everybody

14 running down on me when I tried to

15 tell the truth. And I'm saying to

16 myself, like was what's done is done.

17 And then I don't want it to be that

18 way, because I know he didn't have

19 nothing to do with it. But everybody

20 just ---. It was just a lot of

21 everything. I never had people say

22 well, you know, on both ends, just

23 tell the truth.

24 Q. Okay. So back at the PCRA

25 hearing, you told us that you never

 64
1 really spoke to the District Attorney

2 until basically you met him in court;

3 right?

4 A. Right.

5 Q. You so you never spoke to any

6 lawyer on behalf of June or Leroy at

7 any time; right?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. They never came and asked you

10 what the truth was; right?

11 A. Right.

12 Q. And would you be willing to

13 take a polygraph, a lie detector test?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And you have been in jail how

16 long, 30-some years, 36 years?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And you're aware that there's a

19 new U.S. Supreme Court case that

20 says ---? Wait, let me back up for a

21 second. You got sentenced to life

22 without parole as a juvenile; correct?

23 A. Right.

24 Q. So you're sitting here now

25 doing life without parole; right?

 65
1 A. Right.

2 Q. And are you aware that the U.S.

3 Supreme Court has come down with a

4 case that says that, that sentence,

5 that is life without parole, is

6 unconstitutional?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. And that being the case, that

9 you could be eligible to be paroled if

10 someone files a motion on your behalf

11 to declare that the sentence that you

12 received was unconstitutional. Are

13 you aware of that?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Are you in any way saying this

16 story today because you think or you

17 hope that you're going to get out now

18 of a life sentence?

19 A. No. I've been reaching out for

20 even before the sentence came down,

21 and, you know, trying to, you know,

22 tell, you know, people that, you know,

23 that what I said wasn't true.

24 Q. Okay. Has anybody promised you

25 anything about like helping you to get

 66
1 out early or helping you to get rid of

2 your life sentence or that giving this

3 story would in any way help you?

4 Anybody make any of those kind of

5 promises to you?

6 A. That by what I'm saying now

7 that it would help me?

8 Q. Yeah.

9 A. No. Everybody, when I tried to

10 tell the truth, said this will hurt

11 me.

12 Q. So when you say in the past you

13 tried to tell other people, we know

14 you tried to tell some prosecutors or

15 cops or whatever the case. Did you

16 ever try to tell family members or had

17 you told family members that even

18 though you didn't tell them the true

19 story, did you tell them that what you

20 said in court was not true?

21 A. No. Other than my mother.

22 Q. Other than your mother, okay.

23 Do you have any questions for me?

24 A. You had said something about

25 the ruling that's saying that there's

 67
1 a possibility that I could get

2 resentenced under the Juvenile Life

3 Act.

4 Q. Yes.

5 A. Well, I had filed a motions,

6 you know, for that and I'm in the

7 process of being resentenced.

8 Q. Okay.

9 A. But that situation really don't

10 have nothing to do with me telling the

11 truth, because right now, where I'm at

12 with it, I want to go home, you know,

13 and be with my loved ones. But, you

14 know, I know that, you know, I caused

15 a lot of people, you know, pain as far

16 as on, you know, killing that lady.

17 Do you see what I'm saying? And

18 taking, you know, Leroy's life from

19 him.

20 And where I'm at now, like I'm

21 basically at peace with myself

22 regardless of whether or not I go home

23 or not. So it's either, you know,

24 here or there with that. Because at

25 one time I really, you know, wasn't at

 68
1 peace with myself. But now like, you

2 know, I'm really at peace with myself

3 right now and it really don't even

4 matter.

5 You know, I would love to go

6 home, but if that don't happen, you

7 know, I know that --- you know ---. I

8 mean, I took somebody's ---. I

9 basically took two person's lives.

10 So, you know, like because I basically

11 let people, you know, like scare me

12 and things of that nature. And then

13 over the years, June or Leroy had

14 telling people, yeah, Tone set me

15 up ---. I mean, Tone, that's my

16 jailhouse name, Tone --- set me up.

17 So I had a lot of incidents,

18 you know, with people ---. Do you see

19 what I'm saying? You know, my sister

20 received a threatening letter saying

21 --- you know, towards me. And, you

22 know, over the years and I felt real

23 mad about that. And I'm like, well, I

24 ain't going to help him, because he

25 had people ---. Somebody took it upon

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1 themselves to send my sister

2 threatening letters and things of that

3 nature. It was a lot of things that

4 was going on that really stopped me

5 from really doing everything that I

6 know I was supposed to do. You know

7 what I mean?

8 But I can understand, you know,

9 him feeling the way he feels. And I

10 can understand how, you know, Ms.

11 Leo's family feel the way they feel.

12 Do you see what I'm saying? So, you

13 know, but it's just a lot of things

14 that happened that was going on that

15 kept me, you know, from telling the

16 truth, because of my selfish reasons.

17 Q. Well, one more thing, Anthony

18 is that you indicated that you had or

19 are aware of or you will be --- or you

20 have filed motions regarding the new

21 law regarding life without parole.

22 And I expect that the court will

23 appoint an attorney to you. And I

24 expect that ---. I expect that

25 somewhere along the line that some

 70
1 prosecutor or some District Attorney

2 or someone, you know, will want to

3 speak to you about this case that we

4 have worked with.

5 A. What case?

6 Q. Leroy's case.

7 A. Right.

8 Q. Since you have ---. I think

9 you will have an attorney appointed to

10 you for the life without parole issue.

11 A. Right.

12 Q. But I would tell you that, that

13 if anyone, whether it is me, just the

14 beginning of this case or this

15 interview, if anyone comes to speak

16 with you, it's up to you to decide if

17 you want to speak to them. If you

18 wish to have an attorney before you

19 speak to them, especially if it's a

20 prosecutor, then you should ask either

21 the attorney who's representing you

22 for the life without parole petition

23 or ask the court directly that you

24 want an attorney. Or you could choose

25 not to have an attorney, that's up to

 71
1 you. But I do want to remind you that

2 you would have a right to have an

3 attorney. I wouldn't speak to you

4 without an attorney, but it may be a

5 little bit more --- a little different

6 than a prosecutor is looking at you.

7 You have the right to speak to them.

8 But you also have an absolute

9 constitutional right to say to them, I

10 would like a lawyer and the court will

11 appoint one for you free of cost. Do

12 you understand that?

13 A. Right.

14 ATTORNEY MALLOY:

15 Okay. All right. We're

16 concluded.

17 A. Okay.

18 ATTORNEY MALLOY:

19 Thank you.

20 * * * * * * * *

21 DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT 10:51 A.M.

22 * * * * * * * *

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1 COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA)

2 COUNTY OF VENANGO )

3 CERTIFICATE

4 I, Wendy Blair, a Notary Public in and for the

5 Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, do hereby certify:

6 That the witness whose testimony appears in the

7 foregoing deposition, was duly sworn by me on said date

8 and that the transcribed deposition of said witness is

9 a true record of the testimony given by said witness;

10 That the proceeding is herein recorded fully and

11 accurately;

12 That I am neither attorney nor counsel for, nor

13 related to any of the parties to the action in which

14 these depositions were taken, and further that I am not

15 a relative of any attorney or counsel employed by the

16 parties hereto, or financially interested in this

17 action.

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