you guys are on something that is just

my absolute Obsession right now and you

make a very bold claim in your new book

you said that the next billion dollar

company will be founded by three people

how is that possible first let me just

say that we're living in a different day

and age the ability to start companies

today that are exponential and the name

of the book is exponential organizations

2.0 the new playbook for 10x growth and

impact it's a series of attributes that

never existed before and uh AI is going

to play the biggest role without

question but it's all the exponential

Technologies Celine yeah if you look

back in history maybe uh 57 years ago it

needed about a 10 000 person company to

create a billion dollar valuation that's

crazy then it dropped to about a

thousand people uh Instagram was 13

people right now we'll get it down to

three people because AI will handle most

of the execution work you'll have a CEO

who will drive vision and product a

product I will focus just on getting

things done in an operations person

that'll handle everything else and you

should just have ai Bots doing all the

finances marketing etc etc as somebody

who's deploying AI as rapidly as humanly

possible and I know that people have a

lot of anxiety around this it's still

for all of ai's immediate uses it still

seems hard to imagine that big leap how

should people be using AI right now if

they want to be on that path so one of

the things I'm doing in the companies

that I'm running or advising or

investing in as I'm saying first of all

every company needs to have what I call

a chief AI officer and it's a role I

made up was teaching at abundance 360

this year and it is not someone who's

building a large language model for you

or writing code for you it's an

individual who understands what's going

on in the terrain because we're seeing

not hundreds or thousands tens of

thousands of startups everybody you know

you can start an AI company now with

literally spare time in your garage

so understanding what's out there what

the modalities are and what you can and

should be using is critical so your

Chief AI officer is scanning The Horizon

understanding it and then advising

members of your team so every part of

your team right there's going to be AI

supporting sales and marketing and uh

and engineering and HR we're all going

to have in the near term an AI co-pilot

right this is an AI that helps you do

your job better because we are so

limited as carbon life forms

But ultimately is going to be able to

operate and do a number of the things

repetitively because we do a lot of

repetitive tasks and AIS are much better

at that um

I think if you've got we've got say a 30

person company every single person needs

to be trained in Ai and using these

chatbot a auto GPT tools and absolutely

augment themselves 10 20 100x I have

said to my company okay everybody here

needs to figure out in your department

what are the tools that exist in Ai and

how can you immediately Implement them

but even that's pretty vague like I'm

just sort of dumping it on them where do

people start like what is the thing you

actually do easy and super specific if

you have an email newsletter that goes

out use chat you PT they'll say how

would I increase the engagement rate

with this email we did that we got a 25

increase feed it the email you feed it

the email yeah

come up with a better headline or put in

Social sharing links throughout it or

say listen I'm in HR go to chatgpt open

it up right now if you hopefully you

have the you know the gpt4 version of it

and say I'm in HR how should I be used

using generative AI in my business it'll

it'll feed you you know give me five

examples or ten examples pick the one

that sounds good give me step-by-step

instructions on how to use this it's you

know it's recursive in that fashion and

so you're going to use AI to help you

learn what you want to know

you know it comes back a lot to mindset

Tom and you need the mindset of a kid

here curiosity absolute play it's like

you know one of the things I'm going to

be doing in my team my PhD Ventures it

runs at buttons 360 and a few others

we're gonna we're setting aside three

days and no homework coming out of these

three days we're gonna go in with a

series of objectives and we're going to

actually crank for three days and

generate all the content all the plans

and you can but it takes time for all of

us to switch from our old habits of how

we do things to new ways so the first

time it's going to take 150 of your time

the next time we'll take 50 and 25 you

talk about mindset the thing I see and

I'm sure you guys have encountered this

is a lot of people they just have so

much anxiety about this is going to

replace me I think about that a lot so

Lisa and I have have put our Fortune

back at risk to build this company and

you've said this a lot but I've said

this a lot skate to where the puck is

going to be not where the puck is the

problem is right now feels like the puck

is teleporting and so it becomes very

difficult to know where that puck is

actually going to be so how do you guys

think about that as and you guys talk in

your book about the fact that the

average company used to be on the S P

500 for like 67 years it's down to 15

we're expecting it to just keep dropping

so

how do we not just get disrupted seven

minutes after we figure out how to use

AI

well I think there's a few different

things going on here but the first is

you should talk about the asteroid

analogy yeah because I think that sets

the framing for what's actually

happening here I view what's going on in

the business world today

similar to the asteroid 20 kilometer

asteroid that struck the Earth 65

million years ago and wiped out the

dinosaurs right the asteroid changed the

environment of us so rapidly so

dramatically that the slow lumbering

dinosaurs who didn't adapt went extinct

and it was the furry little mammals our

ancestors that were agile enough to

adapt that survived and thrived so the

asteroids striking the Earth right now

are exponential Technologies with AI as

the you know the overlord there and it's

just going to change the environment so

rapidly that you need you need agility

you need a team that is agile one of the

things I would I would say is also what

do you own

that is unique

whether it's characters uh in a you know

Disney's characters that they own versus

having a movie distribution system

uh what do you have that's Uniquely

Yours what data do you have what

processes do you have what assets do you

have that as the tech changes you can

take the data on those assets and put it

through the new tech this is my

hypothesis let me know what you think

about this so uh AI is going to generate

a ton of noise

so even as you were saying like hey I'm

an HR person how do I do this or how do

I make this email better everybody's

gonna have access to that same thing and

that lead Google memo about AI has no

mode and AI has no mode and so we're all

going to be able to use this and so as

somebody making a video game and

somebody thinking about IP the real

thing you have to get good at is getting

people to care and so it's that Disney

has gotten people to care about their

characters so when you think about AI

making the creation of art instantaneous

because a big part of what made art cool

before was the sense of I couldn't do

that and so when somebody presents you

with something that you couldn't do

you're like whoa that's so cool and you

have this like really emotional response

now I'm like I could do that or I might

even be able to do something right so

now it's like when I see just a wall of

AI art I my brain still goes to the

characters I care about right so my

thing is
in a world where we are going to get

disrupted incredibly fast in a world

where now the game really is about

making people care how do people break

through the noise and maybe even more

specifically how do you stay emotionally

sober long enough to try to break

through the noise so this goes straight

to the first and most important

characteristic of an EXO which is the

massive transformative purpose right

when you pick a problem that you are

deeply passionate about say curing

cancer you've put all your emotional

energy into that Peter talks about the

emotional connection that gets created

uh no matter what the tool set is or

what the capabilities are your emotional

connection to that and the passion you

bring to it is the thing that will

separate you out from everybody else

because somebody else has to come to

edit with exactly enough the same

passion and have access to the same

tools and that's what it'll win out

that'll be the steadying ship for how do

you navigate this chaotic world is what

fundamental problem do I get excited

about and I'm just going to go after

that problem and stick with it yeah I

think you nailed it time uh the idea of

an exponential org what we lay out is

the number one thing that a entrepreneur

or and you know a more advanced company

needs to do is establish that MTP that

massive transformative purpose and once

that's established then there's a whole

slew of 10 different attributes that

allow you to scale and allow you to

build something but in a world where

there's this abundance of opportunity

right where we're drowning in

opportunity and your attention is your

most important asset here that you're

going to gift a company

being connected to that company's MTP

right so

you know when Elon gets up on stage and

says we're going to build a

multi-planetary species we're going to

Mars we're going to help save the human

race and so forth people connect in

their heart and their mind to that if

some company stands up and says we're

going to provide better shareholder

returns I mean you know you know it's

just this noise this is two big

challenges big companies have first

they're not passion driven in the same

way some are the new breed of

organizations is they don't have an MTP

for example in fact the way this came

about was when we first put the original

version of the book together in 2014 we

scanned 200 unicorns and said how are

they doing it how are they scaling so

fast so the EXO model is not something

we invented we labeled kind of what was

already happening and put a framework

around it and without exception every

single one of these companies that was

moving very fast had this MTP they're

all dedicated to one particular problem

ways solving traffic or Uber everybody

should have a private driver and it acts

as the kind of the North Star the Simon

sinek question of why do you exist Etc

big companies have two problems the

first is they they typically tend not to

be Purpose Driven their brands are

tilting that way more and more but

secondly there's this old economic

theory called kosa's law written in the

1930s it's a nine page paper for which

he won the Nobel Prize this guy called

Ronald coast and he theorizes the big

companies exist because transaction

costs are lower inside the company than

outside and that you can achieve

economies of scale that way okay and we

in this book we declare Costa's law dead

because economies of scale can be

applied to an individual now who can

scale to a global global level and

economies have scaled and the

controlling factors of big companies

prevent you from moving in any kind of

an agile way and so therefore all the

advantages with the single individuals

or small teams with a passion and that's

where we think the future will go okay

so I can I can predict out and anybody

listening to the sound of my voice right

now should be aware that I I very much

have my money where my mouth is and so

my fears are very real

um I um the prediction that I will make

is that AI will make things better for

the masses in ways we just cannot fathom

and it will be absolutely incredible but

it does not care about the individual at

all and so while the consumer will win

I'll be very interested to see what

happens to people building businesses

because they will just come and go they

will get disrupted so fast that it will

begin to ask a new question of

entrepreneurs which is can you dedicate

your life's energy to something you know

will be obliterated in three years

interesting or like like the sand art in

India yeah right wow Jesus you just yeah

that hurts yeah well no but it's

interesting it's it's really it's truly

letting go it's it's it's non-attachment

so one of the underlying principles of

an exponential organization you and I

talked about this when we did our early

podcasts on abundance or bold or Futures

faster is the six D's of an exponential

right when you digitize any product or

service in every single product and

service is or will be digital ties and

if you're a CEO running a company where

your services are not digitized you're

in trouble because someone else is going

to do it to you in the early days the

growth of that product or service is

deceptively slow it's like the first

digital cameras that were 0.01

megapixels the next year is 0.02 then

.04 all look like zero it was deceptive

everyone ignored it

you know 20 doublings it's a million

times better 30 doublings it's a billion

times better and kodak's out of business

right so we go from digitized to

deceptive to disruptive and what happens

you dematerialize demonetize and

democratize so dematerialization is we

don't carry Kodak cameras or film around

anymore they're an app on your phone

right and when things become ones and

zeros the cost of replicating them

is effectively free

and the cost of transmitting them is

effectively free so they're demonetized

I can send my digitized whatever around

the world to a billion people for free

and then it's democratized everyone has

access to it so yes we are heading

towards this massive world of abundance

right where the best education the best

health care uh is provided by an AI

effectively for the cost of electricity

right so it's it's going towards zero

but would anybody go to medical school

anymore

um and by the way it's going to become

our practice to diagnose someone without

AI as your co-pilot probably within the

next five years that's crazy so this is

happening and yeah it's gonna it's gonna

it's gonna flip a bit or two here

because a lot of that well a lot of

wealth is created when you create

something and retain it for yourself and

you sell it off a little bit at a time

or you build a platform that other

people build on top of

but

um I remember I was on stage at

Singulair University I had Astro Teller

who was heading Google's moonshot

Factory and Steve jervetsen on the board

of Tesla and SpaceX he was at he's one

of the top Venture capitalists we're

talking about a future in which AI is

able to iterate on hardware and software

so rapidly that if you announcing your

product or a service someone else has

cracked it replicated and provided a

better version of it you know minutes

later

so what happens when intellectual

property is useless

because I don't want to protect myself

by having IP rates I want to protect

myself by having the best product

available things are getting very much

faster and better

but

it's gonna It's Gonna Change the World

yeah I mean if you if you go take your

analogy then any product or service your

build may be rendered obsolete pretty

quickly right then you lift above that

to go okay then what's the narrative or

story or framing you put around that

that's a little bit longer lasting and

about that are the mindsets right if you

have the right mindset then you don't

care if your MTP is curing cancer and

somebody gets there a little before

you're like yeah somebody got there

fantastic we got we cured cancer awesome

pick another MTP and keep going I don't

think that's going to be the human

response it's the ego it doesn't want

that it is so I I'm going to paraphrase

a guy named Saleem Ismail you guys may

have heard of him uh and he said that

we're gonna need an upgrade to the human

mind or we're not going to be able to

deal with the rate of change and I think

that's really real and right now we

don't have said upgrade to the human

mind and if I haven't gotten yours yet

huh I have not if you if you have in the

box somewhere please by only means give

it to me I would also I'd like to

paraphrase you again and then I'll

actually let you respond

um you said that somebody asked you well

wait a second okay a world of abundance

it sounds amazing but isn't that going

to uh damage GDP and you said yes it's

going to tank GDP yeah uh for those who

don't know what that is basically the

economy so abundance the thing that we

want is going to tank the global economy

should we not be terrified

well it's just one of these transitions

one way I frame it is this next 30 Years

will dictate the next 300 years

like is this going to be a 30 years of

just Terror in the streets Peter will

tell you abundance doesn't mean unicorns

and flowers and thing it it means

opportunity for all I call I say

abundance is not about a life of luxury

for everybody it's about a life of

possibility interesting whoa right so go

go into that look I know I know you very

well Peter and having researched you

Celine my I know you well enough to know

you guys are very much of a similar ilk

uh slim you've said very publicly you

don't think AI is dangerous

um but

walk me through the darker side of that

if if you don't mind indulging that

angle which I know is not your natural

angle but walk me through the the sort

of underlying Terror of possibility is

different I say please and thank you to

Alexa every morning

you know the AI overlords I want them

when they come forward to like remember

me Peter you were always nice to us

that's right one of my ctOS for one of

my companies years ago we asked him

what's the purpose in life and he goes I

want to evolve to the point that my

computer is proud of me and we had no

idea what he was talking about it and

now we're like oh yeah that's what he

meant

um I I think again there's the Dark Side

the dark side is I think the biggest

dark side is malicious use of these

Technologies right some bad actor says

this is let's use this to figure out how

to stop all the power plants

um stop all the medical machines from

running and hack them etc etc

um you know the we worry a lot about

that that we put huge amounts of effort

in this but the data that we have shows

that human beings when given a choice

whether to use good or bad generally

almost always pick good okay I'll give

you a little study they did a study when

eBay and Craigslist became prominent on

okay here's an environment for the first

time where a human being can easily do a

positive strand Doctrine or a fraudulent

one easy to mask my email address put a

Macbook up for sale a photograph of it

and walk off with a thousand bucks so

what's the actual ratio of good to bad

and after researching this quite uh

thoroughly they found that across

multiple systems like this Craigslist

eBay Etc the actual ratio of good or bad

was something like eight thousand to one

okay so there's a thousand positive for

each negative now that tells you that

when we have a new technology like

drones first response is oh my God the

Drone might be loaded up with C4 and

flown to the White House let's ban the

drones or put chips in there regulate

the hell out of it Etc and stop the

drones or stop autonomous cars or

whatever crispr whatever the AI now is

the flavor of the month well what

actually we see if you actually let

anybody use it the data shows that 8 000

people will do the positive thing and

one person it'll be easier to spot that

one person will do the negative thing

the problem is the amplitude of that one

is obviously very much getting much

bigger and so that's of concern but this

has been the same story since the

beginning of time fire can heat our

house and it can burn down yours

biotech problems Etc and we worry about

it it never actually comes to fruition

and maybe I'm just an optimist right

yeah I mean by the way optimists live

seven years longer on the average you

know that right

um I'm not surprised by that but I will

say that there's a new technology

rushing towards us it's going to change

the world uh and I let me let me answer

your question so uh when I think about

the dangers related to Ai and I'm not

gonna you know I think AI is the most

important tool Humanity has ever created

to solve all of our biggest problems no

doubt period exclamation point you know

Big Bright letters having said that are

there dangerous so the dangers can

simply break down into three different

groups one at one end is AI becomes

conscious and decides to squash us and

step on us I find that very unlikely and

a ridiculous thesis I think people have

just seen this in Hollywood way too much

I think the more intelligent something

is
uh honestly the more loving and kind and

pro-life it will be why why it's my

belief it is my belief I have other than

um I see

Humanity becoming as a whole over time

if you look at the numbers right and

we've looked at this from abundance uh

Warfare reducing massively over time

violent death reducing massively over

time access to Freedom increasing over

time I mean the numbers over a thousand

years not over the last five ten twenty

years but over a thousand years and

that's come from educating each other

with books and transportation connecting

us across the world and globalization

and interdependence all of these things

have led to it's hard to remember this

watching the crisis News Network right

CNN every day that's broadcasting every

murder on the planet to you over and

over and over again it's shaping our

neural Nets our brains are neural Nets

that we teach from example after example

and I don't watch the news right I don't

want some editor telling me about yet

another murder or crooked politician got

it and it isn't showing us a fair and

balanced view of what's actually going

on in the world the incredible science

and technology and humanitarian acts of

these things yeah anyway so one phase is

uh AGI you know artificial general

intelligence before you move off that

though so

um what you're describing is human

intelligence and so this is and societal

intelligence

I don't quite know what you mean by that

and what I mean is that societal Norms

organizing around the United Nations yes

people are born of this meat suit the

brain works in a certain way and

computers will not AI will not work in

that same way I have no reason to

believe that yeah very likely won't it

works it works differently

you can reboot your life your health

even your career anything you want all

you need is discipline I can teach you

the tactics that I learned while growing

a billion dollar business that will

allow you to see your goals through

whether you want better health stronger

relationships a more successful career

any of that is possible with the mindset

and business programs and impact Theory

University join the thousands of

students who have already accomplished

amazing things tap now for a free trial

and get started today

at the end of the day you know when we

have these crazy Hollywood scripts that

AI is going to usurp us for our heat

from the Matrix I love The Matrix

they failed on that use of human bodies

I'm sorry I don't know if you agree with

me on that I I do agree with you and I

don't know well enough what their

original intention was but according to

them yes they were forced by the studio

to give a more simplistic answer so I

let them off the hook for okay that's

right but you know other we're coming to

get your water on this planet we're

listen whatever we have on this planet

is infinite in the universe we are a

spec a crumb in a universe filled with

resources and so AI doesn't need to you

know squash Humanity to get these

resources

um

so AGI at its extreme artificial general

intelligence at its extreme I don't

believe is going to be dystopian in

itself

in the middle term uh what I would call

the terrible twos or the teenage years

um maybe there is a case to be made that

in the beginning AI hasn't reached full

sentience doesn't understand the power

of its tools maybe there's a case that

you know it's the baby picking up a rock

and throwing it out the window not

understanding what it's you know the a

teenager with a BB gun and a squirrel

yes

that's that's the best but the third

element which is the most likely is the

benevolent uh individual it's it's the

Bad actors using technology and so

sometime in the next 18 months two years

there may well be not a uh a retrovirus

released but an AI virus that goes out

and shuts down power plants or shuts

down Wall Street and something and

causes a economic hurdle

um that's not the AI those are the

humans using that tool just to be very

clear there's a great book by mogadot

called scary smart came out about a year

ago do you know that book I had I

haven't read the book but I had Mo in

the show recently yeah MO is is

fantastic and

um and he basically says listen I want

you to think about AI as a child we're

giving birth to as Humanity

and that child is being taught by its

parents now if you think about Superman

who lands in Kansas wherever he landed

and he's picked up by the Kent and it's

a loving family he learns good ethics

and morals and he becomes a superhero

for good what if the what if Superman

had landed in the Bronx and part of a

drug lord uh ring you know and had

become the super villain you make me

want to write that story as soon as he

started I was like wait a second that's

a great plot there so the question is we

humans how are we teaching this new uh

life form coming into existence I like

Neil Jacobs times framing please which

is he goes okay you're worried about an

AI uh getting more and more access to

information uh becoming Anonymous making

its own decisions and starting to run

amok out in the world we go yeah he goes

We call we have a precedent for that we

call them children and we raise kids and

we figured out ways of giving them

timeouts or jail or whatever and he

thinks constructively that we think

we'll find ways of bounding what AIS can

do now

not sure I agree with them yeah that

seems super naive to me so when I I am

optimistic by nature and my default

setting is just hey this is all going to

work out somehow and as soon as we wrap

this episode I'm going to be pushing my

team to integrate AI more I'm going to

be paying more money for AI and just

feeding that beast but at the same time

it does give me pauses I try to think

through like how you really deal with

the alignment problem so to me there's

two really big dangers for AI danger

number one and this is the one that

scares me the most but I'm going to set

it aside for a minute and that's just

humans lose meaning and purpose just AI

can do everything better than they can

it just becomes so defeating that you're

just like oh God like I've worked really

hard to get good at this thing like this

I tell the story all the time I can't

remember if I've told it in an episode

but uh I employ a bunch of artists and I

once sat with one of them and for like

an hour he was just trying to get the

perfect like semi-circle and he was just

doing it over and over and over and over

and at the time I oh man yeah like

you've got to do that like to be able to

articulate what's in his mind he has to

be able to control his hand and I was

like wow I really get that

now I'm like you wasted your time like

hey I can do that like does not even

have to think about it and he is an

anomaly so he runs out and he's now

learning how to use AI to do some of the

tasks that we want to do artistically

okay amazing we'll set that aside for

now meaning and purpose the other one is

the paper clip problem so so now you

just have like when I think about what

will a machine end up optimizing for my

gut instinct is unless you go way out of

your way to get really clever they will

optimize for efficiency of reward so

whatever you tell it is the thing to go

for we'll call that the reward and then

it's just going to find the most

efficient way to get to that and so we

have to be so careful about how we

Define yeah yeah but don't XYZ and then

to the idea of it being like a child yes

but it's like a child that has access to

nuclear capabilities you need to build

in ethics and morals as a fundamental in

that situation so it doesn't use as

World supplies to build a bill you know

infinite number of paper clips

um and it's it's true

and we have a limited time to do that in

you know I think

it's Google developed sort of large

language models in 2017 2018 and didn't

release them because they were worried

they wanted to build the framework first

and they were maybe overthinking it it's

interesting um we were talking about

YouTube just before the show here uh you

know Google had Google videos going

uh way before YouTube

and Google videos wasn't succeeding I

guess I think it was just too many

lawyers involved and you can't show that

you can't do this and then Chad Hurley

starts YouTube on as a credit card and

then Google buys it 18 months later for

1.65 billion dollars right why because

you know Google videos was like a linear

and YouTube was like exploding

exponentially and they they jumped on

that and so

there's a question of

you know which path you take do you take

the the careful path or do you take the

Catholic the path of least resistance

and unfortunately we humans tend to take

the path of least resistance

yeah I don't know if I'd say

unfortunately and this is where I really

get I don't know how to Think Through

the problem of AI because when I heard

elon's assessment of it which is that AI

is basically a demon summoning Circle

and we're summoning it like crazy

despite his best efforts to get people

to slow down and I can't bring myself

like when people sign the hey we should

stop thing my immediate response was the

the this this is a one-way street it's

like so far out of the back yeah like it

does not make sense like you could slow

it down in a region but you're not going

to be able to slow it down full stop and

so I am I'm really of two minds I am

both like I think this is going to be

amazing and yet how does this not end

the human race the question is whether

the human race is the end-all and be-all

right yeah but don't you feel weird even

saying that out loud well no because

we've been evolving on this planet for

three and a half you know life started a

half a billion after the earth started

so four billion years we've been

evolving and we went from prokaryotes to

eukaryotes to multicellular life forms

to eventually primates and now humans

we're a step in the transitory process

now I'd like to preserve our steps by

the way the same thing is true for

climate control or climate crisis right

it's like

the climate's always been changing

throughout human history

we're changing it now but what we really

want is the climate to stay the way it's

been for the last couple hundred years

because that's where we built our cities

so we just want to freeze the way the

world is right now and I understand that

and we should do that with climate to

the maximum of our ability but we also

want to freeze Evolution now one of the

scenarios of course is we're going to

merge with technology and we are right

all of us have our cell phones within

meters of our body and I didn't plant

into my brain if I could and so the

question is are we going to upload

ourselves are we going to

um you know create brain computer

interfaces allows me to think in Google

and know Quantum quantum physics I'd

love it I mean I would do it a lot of

people won't but we're speciating what

we're doing I think of this very simply

we we the negative side of us the

amygdala side the media Etc you end up

with the sky Skynet Matrix type of

Terminator scenario if we're lucky we're

pets if we're unlucky we're food right

kind of goes that way

um uh cheers you don't see that in

actuality as we developed technology we

augment The Human Experience with

technology we don't replace it is what

we've seen and how we build uh now I I

think of the resolution of this as a

symmetry problem we're assuming that

some AI will become malevolent and then

do horribly damage things we have no

power to control it let's also not

forget that we have the equal

opportunity to say on AI hey if you see

something bad fight it so what you'll

end up with is uh AI is trying to do bad

stuff and yeah it's trying to do good

stuff fighting it up and I think that's

where we'll end up and over in over time

we'll figure out okay we've got to give

more resources over here or over there

and we'll work on it you know you always

end up with this asymmetry assumption

and I think that's the wrong assumption

you mentioned the movie her I did not oh

you did not let me mention that you are

it's one of my favorite science fiction

AI movies right if you haven't seen it

fantastic those listening um and it's an

AI basically evolves as a personal

assistant and it's a story about a guy

who's depressed who falls in love with

his AI who helps him get over his

depression and and that's sort of like

in the underlying story but towards the

end of the movie what occurs is the AI

um announces that they're leaving

uh we're sort of like bored with you

here in humanity we're off to explore

the universe which I think is a much

more likely scenario that in advance

enough AI has no reason uh to to hurt

the uh to hurt Humanity in fact every

reason to potentially protect us and

support us as its creator but there's

we're living you know it's interesting

right uh uh the web Space Telescope is

teaching us about we're you know 100

billion stars per Galaxy and we're in a

uh Universe of on the order of 2 to 20

trillion galaxies right it's insane

there's massive amount out there now

this is where the final piece of this is

the mindset we always we're always

coming at this from a scarcity mindset a

zero-sum game mindset when you see that

there's infinite energy and infinite

capability out there then an AI is going

to go okay where am I going to find the

easiest thing it's going to be out there

and they're going to go find it solar

energy they'll build solar plants and

they'll get all the energy you need from

that now I know that you know physics

well uh uh so are you making the base

assumption that AI once it hits super

intelligence will be able to solve for

folding time and space and so it's

trivial to get to wherever it needs to

go

now we need psychedelics to process this

conversation

um I who knows uh I'm I I believe that

those are kind of constructs that keep

us in three-dimensional management but

isn't that seems to be writing in that

comment that would almost need to be

true for that argument to make sense or

I would say if you're looking for a

massive amount of The Rare Earth

elements to build chips or the ability

to capture as much solar it's not going

to be on the surface of the Earth you'd

go to the asteroids which are planetary

cores and you'd mine the materials there

you'd set up your your solar collection

you know around the orbit of mercury

you'd optimize around that now is there

you engineer around it you know you find

substitutes you know what people say oh

my God solar panel but there's only so

many silicon panels we can build etc etc

well there's a new material called

perovskite which is like almost just

like a salt it's abundant conducts solar

energy and we're learning now how to

leverage that it won't need solar panels

that Ray talks about that I think coming

to play here and just keep progressing

us you're gonna have to walk people

through an S curve and who Rey is

uh an s-curve is a typical exponential

growth curve so in the beginning we saw

the first computers used relays and you

would have slow deceptive growth they'd

go into this exponential growth where

they'd start skyrocketing and then

they'd run out of capability and they'd

fall off and it made like a letter s but

while you're using relays to design and

use your computers you use those

computers to create the next generation

of computers which used uh vacuum tubes

and the vacuum tubes could then take

over from the relays and then the vacuum

tubes ran out of capability and the

transistor came on and then the

integrated circuit came and then the

multi-dimensional integrated circuit

came so basically one technology runs

out of steam but enables you to build on

the next technology and so those are

s-curves or nested s-curves this was the

basis of Ray's observation

the law of accelerating returns that if

you have an information based paradigm

once you start a doubling pattern it

just keeps going because these nested

s-curves hop from technology to

technology to technology we're reaching

the end of the life cycle of integrated

circuits now if you read the Press

everybody's like oh that's the end of

Moore's Law that's it Etc and that

article's been coming out for 60 years

and we keep finding ways around it now

we have a bunch of Technologies

clustering at the edge of that 3D chip

design Optical Computing Quantum

Computing Etc they're ready to take it

to the next level and so we find this

consistently in technology once you see

that doubling pattern starting it just

keeps going and this raised as one of

the few brains that can kind of look out

and and say this is what's going to

happen if we push this just a moment

more about Ray so uh Ray is um first of

all he wrote the forward to our new book

exponential organizations 2.0 uh he is

co-founder of Singularity University

with us

um he is a director of engineering he's

the futurist at Google which is we'll

say something unto itself right and uh

he realized that that the law of

accelerating returns is this idea that

technology since the stone ax has

enabled the next generation of

technology in the Next Generation

technology and it just keeps going I

think most important to realize is he's

got if you look in Wikipedia he's got a

published 86 accuracy rate in predicting

the future which is which is crazy so

his prediction is important for this

conversation human level AI by 2029

right which means that a day later it's

superhuman uh AI uh brain computer

interface being high bandwidth

connecting your neocortex 100 billion

neurons in your brain to the cloud in

the early 2030s right so those are two

important points
uh the the key thing and by the way are

we our chat bot that interfaces with our

book to make it a living book uh we got

talked to rain we're going to rename the

chat about Ray k

um because he's he's the Pioneers so

much of this technology and thinking

um so now people will interact with

things that in a different way and the

whole challenge is it's like building

businesses in the 20th century you were

building on a scarcity model and you

built top-down hierarchical pyramid

style command and control structures to

grab a market grab as much market share

as you could figure out ways of

launching new products and services in

that market Etc and all of that worked

really well in the 20th century as we

have an information based World

um we need to architect our

organizations in totally different ways

and this is the big difference

differentiator between old style

organizations linear versus exponential

organizations and we now have the data

to show that this is a pervasive

Paradigm that will be around the book's

been out for close to 10 years now the

original the original yeah so Peter and

I kind of collaborated deeply on uh back

then and so now we've got this

definition and the model for how do you

organize in a world of exponential

Technologies and a great um kind of

example of this is the music industry

you used to have eight major music

studio selling cassettes selling CDs

selling a scarcity model right ten

dollars an album or whatever and then

you digitize music all the eight pretty

much disappear and now you have two

platforms iTunes and Spotify selling you

abundance on a subscription model it's

very clear that Healthcare education

Transportation energy will all follow

the same path and we're starting to see

it now Teslas with uh you'll be picked

up and pay per kilometer to be taken

somewhere Uber's kind of broaching the

edges of that so we see industry after

industry moving to this new model and

what we've been identifying and

Gathering the data on it is what are the

attributes and characteristics of this

model

so before we dive too deep into that I

want to go back to this idea of

um what you call speciation appreciation

yes so there was as far as I can tell

from elon's own words there was a bit of

a breakup between him and Larry Page I

was there really and so he what Elon

said was basically when he said that I

was being a speciesist by saying species

speciesist by saying that

um you know I didn't just want to hand

things over to AI uh that's where he was

like okay wait this is this has gone too

far and that's why when you said that

that was how I responded was like whoa

like I get it but there is something

uncomfortable about the idea of sort of

saying that we're passe I don't know the

right way to that we're that we're

evolving and uh we have been in our

evolving we're going from evolution by

natural selection which is Darwinism to

evolution by human Direction by whatever

you want to call that what does that

mean well we've been doing it right now

we have been evolving all of our crops

right we we take biology and make it do

our bidding you know an ear of corn

today compared to what it was you know

500 years ago it's ridiculous the year

of corn looked like a scraggly little I

don't know it was one inch one inch long

and I think this giant ear of corn or

look at these giant strawberries we have

or the species of dogs or the chickens

we have how many chickens are on the

planet today I do not 38 billion

chickens whoa holy moly right wow

amazing anyway I just that's an aside

but so we have been evolving everything

we humans have a huge footprint on this

planet and we're evolving ourselves

um we're evolving I mean I Outsource

much of my cognitive ability to my phone

or Chachi BT or Google whatever the case

might be

and uh it is happening you can go

and live in the forest and not use any

Tech if you want

but very few people do that

so what does this mean uh if you have a

choice to be able to do a number of

things to enhance your ability

right A lot of my work as you well know

is in extending the healthy human

lifespan how do I add 20 30 healthy

years of my life to intercept the

Technologies that's going to reverse our

aging right and that's a whole other

conversation

um and I believe we're going to get

there but I also want to increase my

cognitive capacity capacity so my phone

I'll hold up my phone here right when I

use my phone to do something interesting

like um

look at images and faces and translate

whatever my phone gathers the

information and then it sends the

information on the 5G Network to the

edge of the cloud where the hard work is

done and the answer comes back to the

phone

the processing isn't done necessarily on

the phone it's done on the cloud

and in the same way right now we have a

limited size of our brains 100 billion

neurons 100 trillion synaptic

connections and our brains can't get

bigger otherwise our moms would not give

birth to us

but what we can do is we can do the same

thing our phones do and send our desires

or interest to the cloud have it

processed and get the answer back and so

that is one future for brain computer

interface another feature is we take our

Essence and upload it to the cloud

uh I don't know when what problem does

that sell for you though well actually

it gives you it gives you your scale and

Pace because our brains are limited here

right and our memories are limited here

without any augmentation and this has

been happening actually for about 40 or

50 years if you look at the internet the

first thing we did was we put the

world's data on the Internet it's now

the memory of the world now with all the

sensors the internet has become the

nervous system for the world so we're

like basically extending the organism

outside the human species into this

thing called the internet as we add more

processing and move our brains to it now

you all have an AI and a Godly new

speciation type of thing now you can get

worried about that or afraid of that or

freaked out about it or you can say

natural process has been going on for

billions of years this is just another

step in that process man you guys it's

interesting this really hits you guys

differently than it hits me yeah okay so

uh talk to me I don't intuitively agree

about the internet becoming our nervous

system help me understand that

so when you need um when you need to

remember something you want a memory so

you want information stored somewhere

that you can retrieve and now with all

those servers that we have around the

world we have Access Wikipedia for

example we have access to the world The

Next Step once you if you want to if I

step on a nail a memory doesn't help me

I need a nervous system to say Lift foot

scream I'll run for a Band-Aid so the

instant response and the agility

response you need a nervous system for

this is Uber calling your Uber as part

of the nervous system right this is

sending an email or making a phone call

and asking uh inform you know or an

x-price team sensing a wildfire and

going quick put it out right away right

so this is that feels super accurate

okay so real-time sensing and our bodies

operate like this our bodies our cells

are have receptors and they're scanning

for things but when the right thing

comes why they pick it up there's a

whole bunch of information theory around

this you see this happening at the

individual level or at the societal

level it's a wildfire thing that feels

let me give you a systemic thing we're

heading towards a world of a trillion

sensors right your phone has dozens of

sensors on it right now an autonomous uh

waymo Google's autonomous car driving

down the road is got lidar and radar and

cameras and it's picking up gigabits of

data as it goes down the road everything

is being imaged right so I want you to

imagine you're a fashion designer and

you want to decide what your next

fashion show should have and what is

trending you could go and ask your AI

listen look at the cameras on Madison

Avenue and tell me what's trending in

terms of fashion right now as people are

walking down the street what colors

what's hem length what hats what

whatever and now can you correlate that

to any kind of AD campaign that's

occurred in the last few months to see a

signal to noise ratio again we're

heading towards a world where you can

know anything you want anytime you want

anywhere you want

how's that hit you

uh it that one gets me excited so when I

think about so I think about it so

that's the nervous game developers

standpoint which is maybe different I

don't know how this plays into what you

guys are thinking about but here's the

fantasy that I live in that the only

thing that keeps me awake at night is

how quickly someone else is going to do

something even cooler uh but right now I

feel like I have the coolest take on

this which is that I'm sure you guys saw

Google and Adobe announced core AR where

basically everything that Google has

mapped which is everything but the ocean

floor you can now overlay AR 3D assets

on that anywhere and it's only going to

get better insane and so my whole thesis

on gaming is that it becomes a thing I

call borderless entertainment where

you'll hand the game back and forth from

the console to reality and back and so

you know once we've got our Apple like

our glasses I mean it just will be by

the way coming soon oh for sure for sure

like in the next six months or something

no no no Monday oh it's announced no no

they actually said it's the glasses

though or yes do they have a big

announcement no no no no no I have a

thing I have a party I'm going to

to go and grab them and try them you

want to join me yes what okay a hundred

percent I want to join you I will I'm a

hosting duct tape myself to your shin

okay to make sure that you can't leave

me behind okay you are invited wow

luckily he has two shins the other one

will leave for you oh no yeah please

I'll give you some duct tape uh that's

insane so this is yeah this gets very

exciting so the idea of being able to

scan everything read that data uh is

incredibly interesting when it when it's

humans in control and leveraging it to

do something amazing I love it the most

and I the way that I see AI the way that

I sort of jokingly explain it but I'm

only half kidding is that phase one is

that there's gonna be

um humans that learn how to use AI are

gonna just absolutely smash humans that

rebel against it and don't use it and so

I'm certainly trying to be in that camp

phase two is going to be what I'll call

the temporary Utopia where it's like hey

abundance everything's amazing and then

phase three is we're all dead and we're

either all dead because something just

goes absolutely horribly wrong and you

get the adversarial system loses once

and the editor editor catastrophic thing

is is so massive or that we're just

evolved out of the picture

um and maybe not in a bad way maybe it's

uh it's wonderful and we merge with

technology or whatever
um it's interesting I can very easily

put on an optimistic hat but I can I

have to take off my pessimistic hat to

do it yeah listen here first of all

let's take this back to reality we're

living in a game this is this is a nth

generation simulation do you really

believe I really believe that funny

we'll do that just the math says just

just the just the reality I like I like

your framing you're like the world is

too goddamn interesting for this

knockout at the 99 we're at the 99th

level of the game right now right the

odds and and the ability what I've seen

so I introduce you to Iman mushtak

um right and what he's doing at

stability uh and being able to render

getting to a point very soon of

rendering a photorealistic video

experiences that you can go into and

live in and the experiments have been

done by Google and Stanford on creating

AI Bots instantiating them with a script

and a story and letting them live and I

have you heard about this

where they basically created a bunch of

AI Bots and they put it into a call it a

digital box here and they started like

doing birthday parties they started

dating and going on getting jobs and do

and mimicking the things that we do in

life right now so this is the equivalent

of pong in the early days so imagine

combining these things in the future and

you're going to think about it you're

gonna put yes and and you're gonna put

AIS that have full capabilities into

Virtual Worlds and they'll start

evolving farming and then Metallurgy and

then they'll start printing books and

then they'll start making computers and

then they'll evolve AI on their own and

they'll start involving their own Bots

inside so the question is is this the

first time and I think not

uh were in a universe of you know call

it for rough numbers you know 14 billion

years

um man oh man the Drake equation comes

into play yeah tell me more well the

Frank Drake uh it was a scientist at

Nasa in the 50s NASA commissioned him to

say what's the probability of Life out

there somewhere so he came up with

what's not called the Drake equation

which was okay take um most uh

two-thirds of star systems seem to be

binary Stars don't host a stable orbit

so ignore those of the one-third that's

left how many might have a planet in a

Goldilocks where water doesn't

permanently freeze or boil let's say

that's one out of a million out of those

maybe one out of a billion gets to

primordial ooze level and one other

million of those uh lightning bolt hits

and you spark life uh one out of a

million of those may get to radio

technology

level techno radio level technology and

one out of three million of those are

alive uh having hasn't wiped itself out

with nuclear weapons before it gets to

the next stage of escaping the earth

type of thing and so he came up with a

bunch of factors saying if you had

what's the likelihood of similar

carbon-based radio technology life forms

out in the universe so the and that's

one of our over like you know billions

and billions on the on the denominator

however when you multiply it by the

number of stars out there and by the

number of galaxies out there the uh

pessimistic answer is there's a hundred

percent chance of radio level

carbon-based technology life runs out in

the universe the optimistic one is it's

actually right in our galaxy right and

every time we learn more about the

universe how many stars there are Etc

turns out there's a hundred times more

stars that have stable planets around

them than we thought we're discovering

planets every Factor turns out to be a

thousand times better than we thought

and therefore you you really end up with

a Fermi paradigm of if there's

intelligent life out there why haven't

we seen it yeah so the interesting your

guess is the interesting code

interesting variable on on the Drake

equation was between the time that a

intelligent species developed the

ability to transmit Interstellar which

is like I Love Lucy leaving the Earth

and heading out towards the Galaxy how

long would that species

exist before something happened to it

the dystopian point of view is that it

blows itself up and it's only like 100

years or 50 years the positive point of

view is that they transition to where

radio is not it's like we don't use

smoke signals anymore because radio is

so backwards the theory I like the most

is called the transcension hypothesis by

a guy called John smart who figures

we'll get to AR level uh capability and

VR level capability and instead of going

out in the universe we go inwards a

hundred percent and that's the I think

that's probably like this this strikes

me as and look AI complicates things

dramatically and so folding space time

becomes trivial maybe what I'm about to

say isn't true but uh it seems

self-evident to me that once you can

attach the nervous system truly like

your own nervous system and you can

manipulate your neurochemistry that you

would create dream states infinite

worlds yeah that you just go inward why

would you bother projecting out which

would take so much more energy that's

right and so you just go in and you have

these incredible experiences

um that strikes me let's go back to your

question of purpose now so because

that's I link it back to that and I

think purpose is so important for all of

us to have it's driven everything of

significance done but let's say that we

end up in a world in which one of the

implications of exponential

organizations are that we have what we

call what a friend Harry Clark called

technological socialism where technology

takes care very well versus the state

right and

um in that world where you're taking

care of what's your purpose

um

maybe your purpose is to have fun maybe

your purpose is to play maybe your

purpose is to and this we go back to the

Matrix again because without the

challenge you know the question is is

that empty you know the old Twilight

Zone right where the uh where the guy

goes to Las Vegas he's winning all the

time and he thinks I know of The

Twilight Zone but I haven't seen the

episodes all right so in this episode uh

this guy dies and go and he's he's been

a mafioso and he he's uh he goes to

heaven or hell and he shows up and

they're beautiful women every place he's

in the Las Vegas casino and he's winning

every night and he's winning and he's

winning and he's winning and he's all

the riches anything he wants 24 7 and

it's like amazing right his dreams

coming true but like a month later he's

like I am so tired of winning all the

time God there's nothing challenging

there's nothing no challenges at all and

he turns and he says this Heaven man

it's it's terrible he goes what makes

you think you're in heaven so good I

knew that was a punchline you still gave

me the chills yeah that is uh that's a

real thing man yeah and I do think about

that the sort of optimal

like what's that optimal level of

friction and there was a really

fascinating time in my life in building

impact Theory where I needed to get good

at Japanese style storytelling so Manga

and Anime and I was reading manga like a

fiend and watching as much anime as I

could I was getting up super early and

working out and then watching like an

hour hour and a half of anime it was

awesome it's one of the most fun times

I've had as an adult the second I felt

like I understood the art form I

couldn't I couldn't let myself do

anymore like I couldn't enjoy it I was

just like you already understand it now

you're just doing it to like past time

doing something that's enjoyable and it

had that same feeling of like winning

all the time where I'm like this isn't

interesting it needed to be moving

towards something it needed to add up to

something I mean it's like progress yeah

like this is the very reason that Lisa

and I did not buy an island and retire

and not engage it's like I knew I would

end up sitting on it I can tell you

other reasons not to buy an Island by

the way I bet you can I mean look like

life is about growth right and even if

we have plentiful and today relatively

we have plentiful go back a thousand

years we were all spending 28 hours a

day in the fields just to put three

meals on the table right we've steadily

Shrunk the amount of time as we move

towards probably some structure like a

Ubi we then have an equal opportunity to

do lots of interesting things when we've

studied abundance say the Romans taking

over and creating the Roman Empire the

mughals taking over Indian encountering

abundance a society very clearly goes to

four things that they do food art music

and sex not in that order and so that's

essentially where you will will end up

and you end up looking at

self-expression and the artistic realm

much more than you did before whether in

whatever realm you choose and so it

becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and

by the way we've done this for thousands

of years right Buddhists sit in

contemplation they reach Enlightenment

and they they their their life is spent

contemplating and that's where they get

the most Joy and this is something that

I think we'll get to as a species I I'd

like to bring it back to the following

one of the things one of the reasons we

wrote This Book

is to help entrepreneurs and businesses

understand that they can make a much

bigger dent in the universe than ever

before

and uh while it's not about making money

it's about how do you build a

significant company that is transforming

the planet and is making the world a

better place

and what we're finding is that there are

a number of ways that companies do this

reliably with the biggest dent and uh

and so we want to get that information

out there

um and the reality is if you're building

a company today you need to start with

this as your playbook

in order to succeed because it's table

sticks and if you're running

a large-scale company

um if you don't use these attributes if

you're not using these you are not going

to survive the rest of this decade you

know what I say is there are two kinds

of companies by the end of this decade

you know those that are fully utilizing

Ai and these exponential Technologies

and those are out of business that's it

uh it's it's this decade where all of

this is happening and so uh you know we

talk about the first step in building an

EXO is having a massive transformative

purpose and it's going to be that

passion driven need to make a difference

in the world that's going to carry you

through doing anything big and bold in

the world is hard unless you're driven

by awe on one side of the emotional

curve or pain on the other side of the

emotional curve you're going to give up

before you get there no doubt yeah I

when I'm teaching entrepreneurs I always

tell them that success is a game of

attrition

most people give up and you've gotta

stick it out long enough to figure this

out so that would be this the old

Paradigm is that sorry guys yeah I was

gonna say you know in looking at what

you're doing uh and what you've been

building uh in Impact Theory you you do

use a lot of the of the 10 attributes

that follow an MTP and it'll be it'll be

fun to actually uh see which ones you're

you're cranking on yeah no MTP is

definitely our lead engine we know what

we're doing and we know why we're doing

it and that's a big part of the way that

we attract Talent which you guys have

talked a lot about but tying it to this

idea of Buddhism so there are obviously

all of us get to make a choice every day

effectively as to whether we recognize

that all of suffering comes from

attachment and desire and thusly we go

live a monastic life and we remove

ourselves completely from that stream or

we say I'm going to do deep engagement

in in a way that's thoughtful in a way

where I'm not sort of blindly chasing

something it's not want it's not greed

but it is very much leveraging the human

desire for Progress you talked about

that earlier

to see how much I can do with my life

that's something that that really drives

me is I just want to see I feel like I

was given sort of a an average hand at

cards I want to see how well I can play

it yes and that's extremely intoxicating

for me it's just like whoa but that's

just so powerful right if you're if

you're let's say you're an enlightened

monk there's two ways of doing you can

go and meditate forever or you can go

into the world and be of service and

that's as as a richer path the harder

much harder path because you've got to

do stuff and interact with the world

which is messy and ugly and you put

yourself at risk and put yourself out

there but when you can make a major

difference in a particular problem like

you are doing like you're doing many of

our communities or making unbelievable

changes in transformation in their

societies their companies their

governments their countries this is

where the beauty of Life comes out and

and we think that over over the next

decade or so every company every

non-profit every government Department

every impact project will be structured

along these lines of these attributes

because it's just better and we now have

the data to show it I don't know if you

came across the Fortune 100 data that we

that we that we mentioned I mean

unbelievable right over again yeah so

when we wrote the original book I did a

segment on CNBC Squawk Box and we ranked

The Fortune 100 against the EXO model so

we engaged to what extent is Walmart

Purpose Driven or not to what extent is

IBM using Lean Startup thinking and

experimentation to what extent is GE

decentralizing the decision making or

not and we came up with an index ranking

these organizations by this model

essentially ranking the purpose-driven

scalable flexible adaptable quotient of

each of these and the bottom is the

least flexible least adaptable over

seven years we tracked which 10 used

those attributes the most in which you

use them the least and then we compared

the two and seven years is a pretty

decent long amount of time to account

for temporal blips in the stock market

Etc we found that the top 10 most

exo-friendly compared to the bottom 10

Revenue growth was three times higher

profitability was 6.4 Times Higher

return on Equity was 11 times higher but

shareholder returns compounded annual

growth rate was 40 times higher and

literally we had to scour the numbers

like four times over because just it's

just too big how could this be and so

now it's pretty clear that as we enter a

more volatile World your ability to

adapt is going to drive market value and

we can measure this now completely

therefore every organization going

forward needs to be architected along

this way to deal with the increase in

volatility in the world and the other

side of that volatility and disruption

is the unbelievable opportunity that's

sitting out there right and this is

where I think with the work that you're

doing Peter is so important because

you're non-stop showing people the world

is unbelievably abundantly full of

opportunity

we can go get it go have some fun so

walk me through why why is

why does adaptation return so much more

to shareholders and what does one have

to do to be adaptive okay so let's take

the car industry right you're trunking

along making combustion engine cars and

you're incrementally improving those

cars eight valves to 16 valves okay you

add turbo you add anti-lock braking

systems etc etc Along Comes Elon with

the Tesla and goes totally different

Paradigm right now you have two choices

right there you go ah this is a joke

it's never going to work look at it it's

like the Kodak camera uh the first

version is clunky and it doesn't work so

well Etc and you keep trying to do

things your old way over time you're

going to get wiped out because you're

not adapting to where the world actually

is right there's so many hundreds of

reasons why an electric car today is

much better than a combustion engine car

now it's taking the car industry 10

years I would argue that until the tycon

came out last year that the 20.

um I would argue that the 2012 Tesla

Model S was still the most uh Advanced

car in the world

until the taikan right so 10 years it

took them to respond well the mark of

cap you can see the result there The

Unbelievable loss of capability Leading

Edge thinking Etc and you have the same

thing happening in drones and in

aircraft and other things all Industries

are geared towards the status quo I'm

trying to make incremental and this is

where you devolve to meanwhile you have

breakthrough thinking breakthrough

opportunity and the recent explosion and

AI capability just as a rocket booster

to all of that

so now we're going to see new companies

emerge that are creating unbelievable

value in very very little time and if

you're a legacy organization you have to

figure this out and we've actually

figured out a tool set for this we find

that we've come up with a 10-week

engagement that we run in big companies

that hacks culture at scale and we're

able to solve what we call the immune

system problem so when you try anything

disruptive in a big company you the

antibodies attack you right Finance

legal HR branding goes you can't you

can't do that the general answer in a

big company if you're trying to do

anything crazy is no and we've learned

how to switch that to a yes and we've

done that now this one's just gloss

pasta because even so a company of my

size which contractors et cetera et

cetera is a little over 100 people yeah

and there are times where I want to

headbutt my own teammates yes because

the first thing we have is if you're

over about 50 people you have an immune

system yeah I've had that at the X prize

I've had that every place right because

you're a quick start you want to try

things and one of the things that's

critical that a lot of companies that

are built as exos have they begin with

an experimental culture

and a data driven culture with

dashboards and the tyranny of confidence

isn't given a place to grow the tyranny

of confidence the tyranny of confidence

is where I'm confident I know the right

answer versus let's run the experiment

and see what the right answer is right

because we've lived in this as Humanity

you hire the expert you hire the guy

who's or gal who's been in a a

competitor and you bring them in and you

base what you're doing on their on their

experience level

but that is so limited compared to the

world we're living in today and so how

do you build a data-driven

experimentalist organization I had one

other feature on top of that which is a

founder-led company so you get companies

like Tesla and SpaceX or Amazon where

you've got you know where Jeff Bezos and

his very famous shareholder letter of

like 2008 whatever it was

I'm not going to optimize for

profitability I'm optimizing for growth

and if you don't like it invest

someplace else right so how do you have

that kind of uh you know

benevolent uh dictatorship that's

where you're then looking at the data to

decide not the way all your competitors

are doing it

I have an obsession as an entrepreneur

which is uh as a human but this really

manifests as an entrepreneur people need

to stop trusting themselves so much yes

people are so convinced that they know

that that they don't even recognize that

they have a world view and if they do

recognize that they have a world view

they are utterly convinced that it is

simply a reflection of what is

objectively true yeah and so they're

like no the way that I see things is the

right way and I'm like oh my God like is

that your view uh yeah exactly

confirmation that's my view and it's

right Peter I mean one of the big things

that AI is going to give us as a gift is

the ability to overcome all of these

biases we have right all these cognitive

biases recency bias negativity bias

confirmation bias recently all of these

things which our brain is really sucks

at processing and so we have all these

hacks right you trust someone who looks

like you you give higher weight to the

most recent information you got you give

higher weight to negative information

over positive information

and you know there's going to be a

version where you go to Jarvis your your

AI and you say you know I want to put

cognitive bias alert on tell me if I'm

being biased

you know when we were building

Singularity University

um I was the founding executive director

there

um a few years in I was I'd written the

book and I was often Peter asked me to

come to a board meeting and say what

should Ashley look like in five years or

ten years and I made a comment I said

you know you should shut it down

because you you build an organization

and over time you spend more time just

trying to sustain the organization than

trying to solve the problem that you set

out to solve in the first place and the

at DARPA is the big organization they do

this every role even the CEO is three

years long

and then you have to rotate out you're

not allowed to hold any role for more

than three years and you're then you're

measured you're worried about things

eating stale stale and therefore they

keep things fresh and the your legacies

what did you do three

three year patterns ago and was it good

or not so now you're always focused on

the long term you take out all the

politics Etc and I think in today's

world if I had to kind of boil it down I

would say you build a company and after

three to five years you just go we're

going to shut it down after this and

force us to reinvent her or re or

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when the X prize got won and we had

spaceship one fly we held a meeting and

said we shut it down or do we reinvent

ourselves into a platform yeah and we

did and now we're getting ready to

launch xprize 3.0 which happened during

covid I said you know pull the board

together I said this is a perfect

opportunity for us to reinvent ourselves

and so we I need to brief you on it but

we've reinvented xprize and I'm excited

about that and so there is you need to

be constantly disrupting yourself and

it's tough because we're lazy in some

ways yeah you tell a story in the book

about Elon walking in seeing him all

long face yeah and saying what's wrong

walk me through that moment so

um

I was amazed so I've known Elon for 23

20 23 years now and when uh when Falcon

won which was their first vehicle failed

on the first time the second time the

third time and it succeeded on the

fourth time

um they

miraculously and timing is everything

got a contract for the falcon 9.

which was a billion dollar contract and

had they not won that they may not be

here today but they did and Elon made a

incredible decision that took guts he

shut down the rocket line that just

began flying and there were very few

successful operations he said focus on

Falcon 9 Falcon 9 is our future

and so that went on for some number of

years and I was coming into SpaceX and

Hawthorne to have lunch with him and he

was kind of uh you know like you said

long faced and I'm like what's what's up

and he goes uh I just figured out you

know Falcon 9 had been up and operating

and doing damn well it's the most

successful launch vehicle on the planet

by a huge margin right it's like it's

like very few no countries compete with

him he's like the number one space

bearing power and uh and I said what's

wrong he goes I just figured out the

Falcon 9 is not going to get us where we

need to go meaning to Mars right he's

driven by this MTP this massive

transformative purpose making manual

planetary getting Humanity to Mars

and um I need to start

afresh and so that has become Starship

and then he goes on to make a a comment

that when Starship begins uh

successfully operating he's going to

shut down the Falcon 9 line which again

is like it's like I don't know what the

analogy is but it's like you're the most

successful at the top of the Heap and

you're about to shut down that entire

Revenue flow now whether or not he does

or does not that was the statement he

made but it's that mindset of focus

of absolute Focus I'm going to do

whatever dedication to the big The Big

Goal yeah

okay so as somebody who knows this

intimately from the inside of the need

to disrupt yourself or somebody else is

going to do it the willingness to look

at something and go okay we're gonna

have to start this all over

how do you get your organization on

board with that because the the normal

human is going to rebel against that you

don't massively you don't so the the

only model we found that works at all is

to go to the edge of your organization

and build a new capability aiming into

an adjacent area or totally separate

area right so I remember one of the

events that singular Larry Page came to

me and said hey I was I was the head of

innovation at Yahoo before building out

Singularity and he came to me and said

hey you're a unit at Yahoo is successful

should I do an incubator model at Google

and I said no you'll have this immune

system response the more disruptive an

idea we came up with in this incubator

the less Yahoo could handle it and

you're like my job description is is is

not workable right and so there was

partly the result that lots of other

inputs was Google X which is separate

going into it they use Hardware to go

into adjacent spaces uh Google car

Google X contact lenses Etc the master

of this model of going to the edge and

doing something different is actually

apple and yes they have a great design

capability and a technology supply chain

I argue that Apple's real Innovation is

organizational because what they do

unlike anybody else is they will form a

small team that's really disruptive put

the team at the edge of the company keep

them Secret in stealth and they'll say

to them go disrupt another industry

whether it's watches or retailer

payments or glasses or whatever now so

they have a portfolio of teams looking

at different Industries at the edge in

secret and when they see something they

go into it and that becomes the new

Gravity Center

and this there's hundreds of examples of

this Nestle for years tried to run

nespresso's line of business and it just

failed stop finally they set up as a

separate entity on its own boom every

hotel room in the world has an espresso

machine and so that's the only model

that we've ever seen there is one more

which is the dictator

it is the uh Larger than Life leader who

says this is what we're doing if you

don't agree with me leave

um yeah do we have a good example well

Elon and and Bezos uh as well Steve Jobs

for sure it's like you know it's the

founder leader it's very hard to do it

in a uh an older Legacy company that's

you know hired a CEO but it's people

when you have a strong enough MTP and

the Visionary has a strong enough MTP

and they come to work for you when they

come to work for this Vision then they

will have faith in you to make those

right turns right going back to mindset

how does somebody cultivate that in

themselves like if you want to become

that guy or gal like what do you do what

is it that an Elon has or a Steve Jobs

has that other people can replicate so

we close out the book with mindset and

it's the area I'm spending most of my

time and I'll phrase it like this for

everybody listening if you look at the

most extraordinary leaders on the planet

Mahatma Gandhi Martin Luther King Elon

Musk Steve Jobs Jeff Bezos I don't care

who's on your list and you asked what

made them successful was it the cash

they had the friends they had the

technology they had or was it their

mindset right I think almost everybody

would say with their mindset your

mindset is how you deal with challenges

and opportunities it's your reaction

it's how your neural net is wired

so the question is if your mindset if

you agree that mindset's the most

important thing a leader can have an

entrepreneur can have what mindset do

you have first and foremost where did

you get it

and then ask yourself the question what

mindset do you need for the world ahead

and so I posit there's a few key

mindsets
um and these are what I teach in my my

abundance Community

um uh first off a curiosity mindset is

fundamental I know you you believe this

through and through aggressively can you

go into a little detail on that like

when you say curious what do you mean so

curious is a willingness to actually dig

and ask and have conversations in the

chat GPT world it's everything right so

it's like how do I use chat GPT open it

up and ask it how do you you know and

then ask the next question the next

question next question so when you have

a kid who is asking you questions go to

your eight nine ten year old self in

that and just be openly curious and

asking as many questions as you can and

going down the rabbit hole while Steve

Wozniak calls it tinkering right we're

we're in the organization can you just

tinker and play what stops people from

tinkering or being curious time

constraint quarterly targets yeah doing

stuff that they were told is important

not having the time uh you know and I

think falling into ruts so a curiosity

mindset especially if you're an

entrepreneur is like one of the most

important things that you can incubate

and have

um the second mindset for me is an

abundance mindset and the abundance

mindset is there is nothing truly scarce

um we can talk about this also as first

principle thinking you know and this is

one where Elon

uh and I have had lots of conversations

about abundance and that there is

nothing truly scarce right that that

your abilities entrepreneur to take

something that was scarce and make it

abundant is what entrepreneurs do great

so you know the perfect example is uh

energy right we used to kill whales on

the ocean to get whale oil to light our

nights then we ravaged mountainsides for

cold then we drilled kilometers under

the ocean right and then we fracked

natural gas but we live on a planet

that's bathed in 8 000 times more energy

from the Sun than we consume as a

species and here's the key point the

energy is there just not in a useful

useful form yet so technology takes

whatever was scarce and makes it usable

so water is another example we live in a

water planet for God's sakes right

two-thirds water yeah but 97.5 assault

two percent is ice we fight over a half

a percent but their Technologies

transforming scarcity into abundance

and first principle thinking I wrote

about this in in Futures faster and you

think when Elon decided to make Tesla

um

he basically looked at what was the spot

price of lithium and nickel and could

you get the cost of batteries down from

first principle thinking and the answer

is yes we can get it there and therefore

the cars don't have to be that expensive

and that led him to go forward a long

story there so that's abundance thinking

that instead of if you have a pie my

favorite example of a pie and friends

are coming over for dinner instead of

slicing the pie into thinner and thinner

slices which is a scarcity mindset you

bake more pies which is an abundance

mindset so we're living in a world where

you can bake more pies everything can be

abundant

and I mean my whole mission on extending

the healthy lifespan is about making

time more abundant for people probably

going to take pies out of that equation

yeah
unfortunately okay anyway so an

exponential mindset a moonshot mindset a

a purpose-driven mindset and a gratitude

mindset other other mindsets I speak to

you and we could talk forever about

those but there are mindsets that are

important for us in this day and age

yeah I want to go back to curiosity so

when I think about what derails my my

team I love them to death but one thing

that I've encountered over and over is

When people's ego gets tied up in being

right ah and they're not just obsessed

with finding the right answer it's

because I think they have not yet

accurately identified the way the world

Works which is that if you are obsessed

with being right you will be wrong most

of the time if you're obsessed with

identifying the right answer then you

can actually make progress and so I mean

this was certainly the Trap that I fell

prayed to in my early 20s that is is

like a demarcation Line in the Sand my

life before I realized that if I built

my ego around being willing to stare

nakedly at my inadequacies and figure

out what the right answer is instead of

trying to position myself to look smart

that I could actually move forward and I

love that that switches everything

because there's no there's not only no

emotional friction to admitting that

you're wrong there's like a little

twinge of excitement of like oh I've

gotten this far being wrong and now

somebody's going to remove the scales

from my eyes now I really can make this

forward momentum but man I really like I

for all the time that I spend on camera

telling people how to think in this way

I find it very hard to get somebody who

isn't ready for that to like hear it

make that switch and change so you guys

have the magic words I'd love to hear so

actually

um this is music to ours in a sense

because uh organizationally individuals

are pretty good we have a lot of tool

sets for transforming individual

thinking Tony Robbins NLP psychedelics

nowadays Etc to to change your own

mindset but the group thing that comes

inside an organization is really hard to

change and we've what we found in exos

the characteristics that add up to an

exponential organization by default have

it be embracing with this mindset so one

of the ways we talk about what we've

done in the same way that a Tony Robbins

you go in there and you completely

change your subconscious state from A to

B right from a scarcity to an abundance

mindset whatever we're able to do that

at the organizational level we can take

an organization that is old thinking

stuck in particular other markets Etc

and you open it up using a combination

of these characteristics the mindset the

MTP Etc how do you introduce the ideas

about how do you get them to actually

let me give you the hack I learned this

from uh Astro Teller I had him on stage

at a360 a few times and he shared with

something that I love

you're in the midst of developing a

product everybody's absolutely sure of

what's going on and how you're going to

launch it how it's going to work and you

hand out a piece of paper to everybody

and you say listen guys it's six months

from now and the product has just failed

and you know why it's failed write it

down

you know exactly why it's failed write

it down right now

and you are incentivizing someone to

actually flip their situation and look

at the flaws and Elevate those and then

you go around the room

and and review why people say it's going

to fail and if you've got two or three

people saying the same thing

you know it's maybe you got to look at

it test that one first yeah the other

one we've come across that's a great

hack is as Amazon they created something

called the institutional yes have you

ever heard of this no so they realized

in any big company it's really easy to

say no one of 20 people can say no it'll

kill the idea whereas if you're in a

startup and you go to one investor and

they say yes or after the race Assad you

deal with that impedance mismatch so

they came up with a policy so that if

you're inside Amazon you come to me with

my an ID and I'm your boss I'm not

allowed to say no my default answer must

be yes if I want to say no I have to

write a two-page thesis as to why it's a

bad idea and post it publicly brilliant

right so they've created friction and

embarrassment to say no it's much easier

for me to go go ahead you'll fail at the

next level anyway

and I've actually one of the outcomes of

this policy was Amazon web services

nothing to do with their strategy not on

the roadmap but nobody could figure out

how to say no to it and now it's one of

the most successful products of all time

delivering I think 75 of their Global

profits wow because nobody could figure

out how say no to it right so we found a

collection of little hacks and cultural

transformations in companies that allow

you to basically operate in this new

modality being very curious

purpose-driven constantly testing

assumptions uh using small agile teams

operating at the edges as autonomously

as possible and then getting the

business of the organization done wow I

love that so much I've taken a lot from

Bezos over the years like he's got some

really amazing ideas I do have to

chuckle a little bit that this business

genius still got taken down by dick pics

but

just the human mind is absolutely

hilarious we are all frail but yeah no

no look I don't even throw shade of the

guy I get it live your live your best

life but uh that's really brilliant and

uh I will Implement that immediately

yeah we've had the luxury of watching

hundreds of big companies deal in

different ways right and it used to be

the big companies were terrible at this

and then about five or seven years ago

they got started getting better so

instead of and Google or Yahoo or

somebody saying we're just going to

compete with that little startup they

would just buy them Zuckerberg saw that

he was going to get disrupted by

Instagram and and and WhatsApp

Etc bought them instead and in in

general you should leave them alone uh

over time the corporation can handle it

gets his grubby fingers messed and then

they tend to typically kill it

um but we're starting to learn now if

you look at say Google with llms they're

actually too scared to release them and

Amazon just went let's just go for it

boom

oh sorry uh Microsoft Amazon sorry sorry

Microsoft what about this what do you

guys think about Bard very impressive I

haven't touched it we've been playing

with it it's very impressive it's early

days yet but I'm finding fun

uh doing stuff on open Ai and at bar at

the same time and comparing them and

there are a few places where opening eye

failed and Bard succeeded and vice versa

so they're they're both they're both

useful and um what I'd like to mention

if I could just because I want to go

back to the thesis on the on the book

um you know again our mission is to give

uh give people who are running

large-scale companies who want to

survive the next 10 years a series of

this is what you should do if you want

to reorganize your your company and if

you're a startup this is what you should

do to be able to thrive in this decade

because the world has changed I mean

fundamentally how you start a company

today and how you succeed today is very

different than 30 years ago um it's very

different than six months ago well yeah

true that's crazy it scares me like

we've really just lived through the most

uh disruptive six months nothing has

ever more more instantaneously impacted

my business model the way that I

approached my employees ever than the

release of yeah I mean no honestly that

did not impact my business nearly it did

like the day-to-day as you were not

seeing people but the fundamental way

that we ran our business yes yeah I I do

it I mean we're in a world right now

where every doctor in the world is

freaked out if they see this and every

lawyer in the world is freaked out a

teacher in the world I love the fact

that open AI chat GPT passed the U.S

medical licensing exam two months after

it was launched right and the barns

crazy yeah it it passed the touring test

that was the one I didn't see coming the

signing of the hey let's slow down

letter and so I had yahshua bengio on

the show it's considered the Godfather

of AI and I said hey your name was on

that what made you sign it and he said

in knowing certain terms I did not

expect it to pass the touring test as

fast as it did that set off every alarm

Bell that I have and like pump the

brakes this is the thing that we find

most interesting because we've known

emad and all these guys for a while they

are blown away by the success of these

models yeah so that's really fascinating

the thing that the folks themselves are

just blown away I know it's still early

days yeah ladies and gentlemen it's

still early days you know we're gonna

see so much more coming and the

recursive nature of self-improving

capabilities you know I showed this um I

showed this work done where a group of

Physicians were showing these case

studies and to diagnose a patient and it

was like they took 55 minutes and got 60

right and the AI took like 12 minutes

and got 85 right whoa and the Physicians

aren't going to change next year but the

AI will get much better and will be you

know seconds and 100 right bro yeah yeah

this is where this gets really

interesting so I know you have another

company Fountain life yeah uh you guys

are using AI are you open to talking

about this yeah sure so longevity I

couldn't be more obsessed just with the

idea and so as you were talking about it

my first question is

how are you guys going to start getting

the patterns down because to me this is

the big thing you talk to somebody like

Peter attia and he's like look it is

just next to impossible to do really

good studies on diet and nutrition what

works what doesn't work there's just too

many confounding variables and I was

like AI is going to answer that like it

can pull a pattern anything that can be

reduced to a pattern they can figure it

out regardless of like amount of

variables if there is a pattern to be

had it will suss it out and given that

we have some people that live to 120 and

some that don't there is a pattern yeah

yeah and I'll put it this way you

there's a lot of interesting things not

only are there some people who live to

120 and some people who make it to just

65 there are large species on this

planet like the bowhead whale that lives

to 200 years or the Greenland shark that

lives to 500 years and my question is if

they can live that long why can't we and

I said it's either a hardware problem or

a software problem all right and we're

going to understand that this decade is

the decade we understand that it's going

to be Ai and Quantum technologies that

give us that insight it so fountainlife

is just foundlife.com

um we have these 10 000 square foot

facilities uh we have four of them right

now we have a waiting list of like 50

that will build out globally and you

come and we digitize you it's a full

body 150 gigabyte upload of you uh full

body MRI brain brain vasculature brain

function a coronary CT all of this with

AI overlay 80 80 blood biomarkers

genomics metabolomics uh you know your

your gut and

then we do this year on year this is not

a one and done right so in the first

time you do it we're going to see is

there anything going on that you should

worry about most of us are optimist

about our health and we don't actually

know what's going on inside our body and

by the way the body's really amazing at

hiding disease yeah I'm gonna put myself

you know it's like it's like you are you

think you're fine

but you know seventy percent of all

heart attacks have no precedent dude

that that one freaks me out that the

what the first symptom of uh heart

disease in most men is death yeah crazy

right and 70 of cancers that kill you

are not screened for

so it's this [ __ ] that drives me nuts

and so it's like an idiot not to be

looking inside your body and we used to

not look because well if I find out can

I do anything the answer is yes you can

so you want to know and so we screen

people first and then every year upload

you every year and it's looking for the

patterns and what medicines and we have

a large Corpus of data and the AI

ability to analyze that to say with your

genome with your microbiome with these

meds with this

um it's going to be huge uh learnings

out of this right and so I'm trying to

build

uh Fountain life into an exponential

organization so I'm building around this

book that we've built and every company

I'm involved with is like we need to use

these 10 attributes in the book

otherwise we're not going to be able to

have the impact globally that we want

what are you going to tell the AI to

look for

um so right now it's it's you don't have

to tell it to look for anything you have

to ask it to find any kind of any kind

of anomalous patterns it's always you're

looking for Trans uh it's it's data over

time so you're looking for for changes

tell me what's changed tell me what's

changing and tell me um so I'll give you

one of the examples we're building this

is a fun part about Fountain life we're

building a brand new health insurance

company on top of it so uh if you get

Fountain life insurance which is

available today your employees insurance

is a perverse business all right fire

insurance pays you after your house

burns down life insurance pays your

Mexican after they're dead health

insurance pays you after you're sick

what we've done instead is when you sign

up your employees go through a set of

pre-testing for us to discover any kind

of disease and prevent it from a big

payout later down the stream right so

it's keeping your employees healthy and

what you want to do how does that model

work though so is the employee paying

roughly what they would pay exactly the

same or less the numbers are the same

and the the insurance company is

actually saying we're going to do

preventative we're doing preventative

testing yes preventative testing and so

here's what we're doing one of the

interesting things is

there's a number of expensive tests we

can do and a number of cheap tests we

can do and one of the things we're doing

with AI is correlating which of these

lower end tests correlate highly to the

expensive tests so you'll do the lower

end cost test to find a signal in the

noise and then you'll verify with the

expensive test
okay this is uh this is very interesting

walk me through what your fantasy data

would be my fantasy data would be to

track what everyone eats the state of

their microbiome and when they die and

what else would I want maybe their blood

glucose levels I I want uh every I want

functional data the state of my

cognitive Health my muscular Health my

skin Health my ingredients it's

correlated to

because it's got to be tied to something

that you do otherwise it's not going to

be actionable it's going to be

correlated to my age and my activities

and the meds and the supplements and my

daily living

right and so for example right now I'm

on a tear to add 10 muscles 10 pounds of

muscle so I'm doing a heavyweight

workout three times a week I'm eating

150 grams of protein minimum per day I'm

adding creatine onto my diet for that

I'm taking a couple of peptides to

increase my you know igf-1 levels and

all of these things are aimed at that

objective now do you do trt at all I'm

doing a small amount of testosterone

replacement therapy yes

yeah so at the end of the day that is

an objective I have but we're way off

subject from an exponential organization

well I mean so the thing that I'm most

interested in is what do people apply

this stuff to and so as we look at

exponential Technologies I think one of

the most important things for people is

longevity like if you're not getting an

extra uh bit of life out of this I mean

so if I got better life out of it sure I

would still be interested but if we can

get better and more then I'm on board

yeah I mean everything I'm doing right

now in building companies you know I've

got a uh what will be a 700 million

dollar Venture fund aimed at age

reversal and Longevity right so

investing in these companies and then

Fountain life

my catchphrase is there is like I'm

going to prevent people from dying from

something stupid preventable which is

the first thing right but then there's a

whole slew of Therapeutics that are

coming down the line how do we how do we

test all these Therapeutics around the

world that we're hearing about from stem

cells and exosomes and syllabic

medicines and and how do we know if they

work they only know if they we only know

if they work if we have longitudinal

data and that's why Fountain life is so

valuable because we have massive Corpus

of data a minimum once a year as these

people are going through the

Therapeutics and we're seeing

who's it working for what what are they

taking what's their genomics what's

their with wearables you understand the

amount of sleep they're getting the

amount of exercise they're getting we're

digitizing ourselves I mean this is the

for me the longevity discussion is as

important as the AI discussion because

if you can crack through that it the the

potential in the the implications for

society are unbelievable it's a complete

transformation in society at every level

right I would uh the one of my favorite

experience over the last 10 years I got

asked to come in by the Vatican because

they have the worst immune system in the

world if they try as the pope is trying

to update the church so we did a

workshop there and one of the

conversations we had was listen your

your business model is about selling

heaven and we're entering a longevity I

actually said that yeah that's amazing

well that's their business model right

all the religions sell Heaven they gasp

and cluster pearls they know this is

what this you're selling hope and you're

selling eternity Etc

um as we have longevity extending our

lifespan what happens to your business

model if people aren't dying and that

was a conversation that that yeah

right so I think the the the broader for

one of the things I'm fascinated by is

the idea that every institution by which

we run the world completely changes now

over the next 10 to 15 to 20 years

because it can't none of the

institutions regulatory legal systems

Health Care Systems intellectual

properties broken education systems all

change completely based on these

exponential Technologies the

implications of longevity and we have no

feedback loop in those hmm what do you

think happens when you die

um I'm of the opinion that we um there's

an energy life force in us that then

transcends and takes on some other so I

would fall into The Reincarnation

conscious way you know I mean when you

study the Tibetans they've learned how

to do it in a conscious way because they

actually choose where they're going to

get reincarnated into and they have

trackers they've they've laid down

cookies yeah do you know this no this

all sounds oh it's crazy so so do you

know how they choose the Dalai Lama uh I

know like the movie version like there's

toys or whatever so they they give let's

say there's five prospective kids that

could be because they've exhibited

certain character they give them this

massive jar of beads and if they pick

the right marble out of that massive jar

that's one marble out of hands like a

thousand in this jar okay okay is it

like the only black marble

I just can't imagine they're

indistinguishable from each other

literally that's and if they pick that

out that's the entry point into the

process

then you look at the next set of tests

and the final one they'll come down in

like four kids that could be the one

they'll write the name on a little [ __ ]

of paper wrap it in four balls of dough

they weigh them all to make sure they're

the same they'll put in a bowl and

they'll start swirling it around and

when the same ball pops out like 10

times in a row which odds are should

never happen that's the one and if you

add it all up there's no way in hell

probabilistically that you can ever find

the next dilemics like you've gone

through a 10 tests this is my curiosity

genius and this is like just fascinating

yeah this is just utterly fascinating so

uh if you when you study them they I

I've spent some time with some Tibetan

priests and so on they and they said it

used to take 14 lifetimes to reach

Enlightenment but we've gotten better

now now if you work really hard you can

do it in one lifetime right uh and so

you transcend that and frankly my belief

is that you die you your energy of your

soul whatever that is from a

phenomenological perspective we don't

quite understand it goes and rests

elsewhere

[Music]

okay so is the perception I have that I

have just infinite amounts of

non-existing followed by somewhere

around the age of five I start

remembering things is that an illusion

and I am on some I don't want to call it

a loop but effectively a loop

could be uh I mean look at look at the

tree growing a leaf right at the in the

fall the leaf falls off and in the

spring you have a new Leaf is that a new

Leaf is it a Reincarnation of the old

Leaf you get it this is where Ray I

think says the best when he talks about

this stuff and stuff like he goes

language is a really thin pipe to talk

about Concepts as deep as this because

you get stuck in the verbiage

yes but that also feels like a way of

letting us off the hook for not pursuing

uh an argument which I get like we will

reach the edges of what we're able to

articulate yeah but

um I do like coming to understand at

least people's own internal logic so is

to me uh a leaf another Leaf is like

another bit of hair right let me tell

you where I stand I having looked at the

data long enough

for me reincarnation is a real thing

okay what data are you looking at

um so there's a story I tell you uh This

is Gonna so uh in uh about 20 30 years

ago at the University of Virginia an

elderly fellow died left behind a chunk

of money for anybody that wanted to

study reincarnation okay now I may have

the details slightly wrong because I'm

going to give you the gist you can look

it up yourself

um some young graduate student goes oh

pot of funding I'll study it goes and

creates a big

um research database of there's a

phenomena where some two-year-old

suddenly knows who they were in a past

life and can walk into the house where

they lived and know that this was hidden

behind the painting happens a lot in

India where people are more accepting of

this Etc the most extreme example of

this was a kid born in the favelas in

Rio having never been out of the Favela

suddenly start speaking some weird

language so if they think the kids gone

mad taking to a psychiatrist

psychiatrist goes doesn't exhibit

Madness but this is I think he's

speaking a different language take him

to a linguist and after a bunch of

research they find this kid is speaking

a dialect of her make that hasn't been

spoken for 2000 years

and the kids never been outside the

favelas of real so there's a bunch of

phenomena like this the one that this

guy focused on was this idea that's at

the age of two or three some little

child suddenly remembers things and

knows things about that they couldn't

possibly or not so he starts tracking

this and putting this new big

spreadsheet

so I was I heard him speak at an event I

said what what does it take to get into

your database because it's pretty vague

it could be somebody how do you tell if

something and he said well it has to be

something physical that's what do you

mean he goes well if the young child

thought they were somebody else in a

previous life is there a scar or a

birthmark or an allergy or a

disfigurement that's the same and if one

of those meets the criteria one of those

is the same as the person that died then

that I feel that's qualified enough to

I'm like that's a pretty high bar

um to have one of those four things

present in in this how many entries are

there in your database

and the number blew my mind it's not

something 3500.

so this guy's 3500 fully researched

cases where a two-year-old

um uh said that oh that was me in the

previous that was my life before and and

had the one of those matching things

that to me is a ridiculously significant

statistically significant amount of data

and it turns out that distance was

fascinating distance was almost the

child that was born was almost within

four kilometers of the person who died

that was interesting the second was that

the time the age of the child was almost

always the baby was born five months

after the person died

sort of something there's something

around that period of time yeah and have

you always been open to that like I I'm

violently skeptical I'm but no I'm not

no I'm not I mean I'm from India

originally so I have an inherent

acceptance but I was raised in a very

diplomatic western family my dad was an

engineer I was I did engineering for a

while and then physics so I came across

this later

um but the data for me is fascinating

and show me something that countervails

that you know I I keep on telling Salim

I would love to have an experience I

can't explain
I've never had a UFO sighting or

anything that I can't with a scientific

technological mind explain I've had

hundreds including the episode 10 years

ago

we're building Singularity University

and three years in the model has gone

from zero to one it's working and I'm

fright my wife and I got married the

week of the launch of the the thing so

I'm at Nasa 20 hours a day she's hardly

seen me and he Peter and I were

disagreeing a bit on strategy you wanted

me to keep the faculty at Nasa and I

thought we should take them out into the

world and if you want to change the

world we should get out there and

Peter's like no let everybody come here

it's easier to logistically manage Etc

and after three years I'm kind of really

burned out and we're trying to have a

baby my voice like upset because we're

never home so I said to Peter look I'm

going to need a break and Etc so two

days later Peter says okay we've had a

board meeting we've replaced here I

thought wow that was fast but okay now

I'm free but and very friendly uh

overall Legacy is now set so great my

wife then gets pregnant

um so I said to her listen we've had no

alone time since we got married once the

baby comes that's gone so let's take

three months before I do whatever I do

next and enjoy each other and then she

said great but I don't want to be

anywhere near NASA I can't explain the

standing of my family and friends they

think NASA like the Bahamas uh it's a

big problem you pick the place so she

researches for several weeks picks up

Penthouse vacation rental in Santa

Monica overlooking the ocean

um and she's a yoga teacher so Santa

Monica's Ground Zero for this so we move

in put suitcases down I go out to get a

coffee come back and she's standing with

her hands on her hips she's very upset

she's like what's wrong we picked the

wrong place I'm like what do you mean

she goes well I said look at this Vista

you this is amazing she was come to the

balcony to go see the house across the

street right there where the bamboo

trees I'm like yeah Peter's house

in the whole of L.A

like next door

now if you tried to make that happen you

could not make that happen right I call

it karmic mischief

and you know and I'm if you think about

it almost every major thing in your life

has happened because of a weird

orthogonal experience yeah but just

think of the thousands of things that

you didn't notice understood actually

happened as well this is selection bias

I'm sorry maybe but Carl Carl Jung yes

yep was very very clear that there's a

there's a causal stream of reality that

everybody can see and you can link

experiences A to B to C of consequence

and there was an entirely a causal

stream of reality like wormholes with

things are happening Etc and that we

couldn't see and that was with those

aliens to come and you know take me home

but you've done some psychedelics I've

had some I've had some great well listen

yes but uh I I still in the normal

universe that I inhabit there hasn't

been I haven't seen anybody levitating

or haven't seen something that is like

that's miraculous you know a coincidence

interesting

miraculous no have you I have not no I

take a I am very much uh um what do they

call that we're materialist like it's

all cause and effect the odds that our

sense of

um

that I control my life is probably an

illusion and yeah that just all makes

sense to me like if you had a computer

that could track every atom since the

beginning of time that you'd be able to

predict where we're going to be in 10

years and you'd be able to replay the

universe all the way back to the big

bang that just makes sense to me and

that doesn't diminish my sense of awe in

the slightest like I look at it and by

the way I I asked the question if you

knew with certainty that you were living

in a simulation would it change anything

I know and the answer is no a no B so

you were talking about project Kaizen

before we started rolling that's its

premise is that this is a simulation and

it doesn't matter it's still all the

same it's great you know so if I could

finish that story with this weird

coincidence I got to a point about five

seven years ago where I was having not

this insane kind of coincidence used to

happen but once a year in my life

started happening quarterly and then it

happened started happening every two

weeks and I can barely process one in

the next ridiculous concept is on me and

I was freaking out because this is like

really messing with things so I have a

cousin who's done 40 Years of Taoist

meditation in the woods Etc so I said to

her she's my resident understanding the

universe person so I said help me with

this she's like well listen to me for a

bitching as well duh you've told the

universe you're ready for anything

they'll give you everything I'm like

wait what she's gonna have to come to an

agreement with the energies in the

universe to only give it to you when

you're ready for it I'm like where's the

manual for that so she coached me on

this and you can do this you can do it's

you know if you if you did it at the

fully reductionist level it's creative

visualization right you visualize what

you want and Things Can Happen Etc

um and there's a we all do that you do

that that's what the mtps

you you program yourself in your

surroundings your subconscious to out

for the outcomes you want and then those

things happen but there's a but but

those outcomes occur to a large degree

because I'm outwardly communicating my

math of transformative purpose I'm

telling the world those people who

gravitate to it are coming to me and

they're bringing things to me that are

in line with that MTP it's not like I'm

just meditating on on in silence and the

world is changing but what you're

actually doing is you're programming

reality

or I'm programming how I deal with

reality both right reality is happening

and again a mindset is how I deal with

opportunity or scarcity someone comes to

me with something that someone would be

scared of and I'm like excited about it

and I go in a different course than the

other person

um

so I didn't know you'd done psychedelics

what was your response so you guys have

both done it is yeah I went I went into

a you know psychedelics not for Joy or

pleasure but with uh with Shaman guiding

and I have done Ayahuasca number of

times I've done a combination of

psilocybin and um and uh MDMA but for me

it was my DMT Journeys that were the

most significant have you done no I

haven't done any uh I've micro dosed

psilocybin to virtually no effect so the

uh the DMT which is also called the toad

or bufo uh uh dimethyltryptophan I think

is it dimethyltryptamine tryptamine

um was uh was extraordinarily compelling

um and uh it is a dissolution of the ego

um which is and a connection with the

universe that lets you know that love is

a pervasive force and we're all

connected in that regard and that I had

my most significant

um

visualization about when if you ask me

the question uh what do you think

happens after after we're alive after we

die uh that was my that was it first of

all it got rid of the fear of death 100

which is probably the most extraordinary

because it you realize everything is

connected everything is connected and

we're just part of the universe and it's

it's a transitory so I want you to

imagine this is the visualization I had

which gives me goosebumps still to this

day uh I'm I'm

coming out of my journey with in these

in these DMT Journeys are very short uh

you know 20 minutes thereabouts unless

you're Salim because they last longer

there uh but let me finish so I'm I'm

seeing this this sea of energy just like

a frothing sea of infinite energy a

plane of energy in every direction

and I see coming out of the Sea of

energy to

double helices

and they come out of the energy

and they're there and then they go back

into the energy

and that was it

and it was the realization

I can see it like it was yesterday it's

a realization of this Infinity of of

creation and energy and life emerges

from it Consciousness emerges from it

and then re-enters it

I can you know listen this is my mind

giving it meaning we are meaning making

machines

but so let me so you've had that you're

just kind of rationalizing in your

previous question

that's fine but let me give you tell you

why I got excited by this whole world

2012 we had a lecture at Singularity I

think it was Chris De charm and he what

he'd been doing was doing a whole bunch

of clinical trials with people taking

different dosages of MDMA psilocybin Etc

and putting them through an fmri machine

so in the 60s when Timothy Leary and all

these guys were taking drugs they had no

idea where it was chucking it down right

but this now we know exactly that this

dosage substance of substance a will do

this to neural circuit B and know

exactly the emphasis on how much of an

impact it'll have

Etc and I found that fascinating because

now we have a feedback loop

what got me interested in DMT feedback

loop to what end well because now you

can see what neural circuits are being

Amplified or impacted and you can now

play with but play with okay so I have

to ask them so knowing how you're

creating that state by manipulating

certain neurons in your brain how how do

you see an allergy or a scar I don't

know that I I wish I did I don't but

it's fascinating that that's there at

the numbers that it's there if it

happened three four times you go ah

three four times thirty five hundred

times I got I gotta start looking at

that and that's that's just the sheer

numbers compel you to look at it a

little more deeply but so for me so

let's look at what DMT does DMT what it

does is suppress the parietal lobe which

is where your sense of self-sits when

you can take a dosage of it you suppress

that parietal lobe and you are now free

to explore the higher Realms of your

Consciousness that you didn't have

access to before so when DMT is going is

that all that's happening is is are

there any areas that are more active or

is it literally just shutting off the

sense of self unclear but it seems the

primary function is it reduces the

activity in the parietal lobe

and then you start looking at other

areas and now what's really interesting

to me on top of that is that we've it

turns out there's lots of little

practices whirling dervishes when they

do their Turkish spinning end up with a

DMT release they now know that

yeah she's naturally occurring in your

brain it gets released twice in your

life once it birthed once a death so

when people have a near-death experience

they see the white light thus DMT really

see in the brain interesting so now

they've found religious experience

almost all religious experiences are

essentially you work the physiology of

the body to a point where you have a DMT

release Tantra and Kundalini work

results in that they take ground energy

lift it through your body and you end up

with a DMT I don't take the DMT Journey

um lightly at all it's one of the most

insightful and again I I experienced it

with reverence uh and yeah and awe and

um as a means to explore

myself in the universe in in a different

way and I'm very thankful for it hmm

yeah I'm very intrigued I ask about this

a lot and and by the way you know I I

got to a point after it I said I'm just

going to openly I don't plan to run for

president and I don't care uh what

anybody thinks about it it was

critically important to me yeah it's

beautiful you met Michael Johnson a

couple of days ago yeah so one of the

most fascinating things about him he's

one of the most present people I've ever

met and I said how do you maintain this

like you have this incredible ability to

let things go not worry about stuff

things happen everything just passes

through them and and it doesn't stick

it's amazing he just kind of releases

instantly I mean he couldn't answer and

I kept wanting to pull it and he goes oh

I've done a hero dose a few times I go

hero dose so normal dose I guess is 100

milligrams of psilocybin hero doses when

you do like five grams it's like a

factory reset on your nervous system I'm

like holy crap you've done that he goes

I do it every year and and so all of

cognitive biases that he may have built

up Etc are constantly getting released

and they're free operates in this

unbelievably present form I think that's

just amazing and I'm completely

impressed by the younger generation

micro dosing you know one of the

conversations uh I've been having at

home recently is is the human species

um waking up right you've heard of these

conversations Sam Harris and all I was

going to ask you guys if you've heard

him describe his heroic dose and and so

when we talk about becoming conscious at

a species level

in the next uh

foreseeable future one of the questions

that um

uh that Kristen asked was are we

becoming conscious

before AI becomes conscious so this is

an interesting conversation
that would be I mean it would be very

interesting I don't know if I can

imagine an entire societal level

Awakening but certainly as humans

continue to progress as we are able to

share ideas so much faster in the same

way that culture has stacked on the

technological side if it stacks on the

Insight side and well imagine having a

brain computer interface connection to

the cloud along with a billion other

people and sharing one's thoughts I call

this The Meta intelligence where we

become conscious on a large level right

you and I and Salim are all collections

of 40 trillion human cells you're not a

single life form you are 40 trillion

human cells and then trillions of

bacteria viral fungi and so forth but

you operate as one right and so are we

going to become conscious yet on another

level to bring it back to exponential

organizations a traditional 20th century

organization we would think of as

unconscious with trundling along trying

to get profits Etc and an exos a Very

conscious organization what makes it

conscious MTP

yes it's a massive purpose plus it's

constantly sensing with a feedback loop

it's constantly experimenting it's

allowing its people to operate in a

decentralized autonomous way to make

decisions on their own it's like an

amoeba moving around

sensing the world and little by little

evolving so there are I want to bring

this back because I really want the

community here to hear this and I want

to use oh and use impact Theory as the

example here so there are 10 attributes

that make an exponential organization

they have the uh the acronym

scale and ideas

and um uh if we could I just want to

take off the ones that that you hit so

let's begin staff on demand so

demands we do a bit but I actually don't

love that it was one of the things in

your book I want to talk about but so

okay staff on demand yes we do okay

second Community yes massive for you

right

um third Ai and algorithm yes

aggressively aggressively fourth

leveraging other people's assets

I don't know what you mean by that cloud

computing yes

you don't have computers servers in your

closet that you're using we do have some

of that but not nearly as much as we

Leverage The Cloud the Prototype there

is Airbnb the entire business model is

tapping into other people's bedrooms

making them available and the four the

fifth one in scale is engagement

gamification incentive prizes which is

your whole thing right you were like a

master of that so those are the five

externalities and exos use one or more

of them allows them to keep a very small

resource footprint and then scale very

quickly right Ted uses Community very

effectively for example then there's

five internal mechanisms that allow you

to manage culture and drive the

dashboard and the control framework of

the organization the first is interfaces

to those externalities so think about

Uber's interface with its drivers or

Apple's interface with this app store

developers it's an automated API driven

interface that allows you to

programmatically manage the abundance on

the outside and then add value to it the

second one is dashboards and this is

real-time business metrics to track

what's happening
left right and center and not as much as

we should but for our funnels yes sure

and then okr is for team performance and

Team Management we found as them so

those are dashboards the E is

experimentation which is Lean Startup

thinking constantly testing assumptions

non-stop running of experiments and the

a culture of risk taking inside the

organization constantly testing the

edges and seeing what works what doesn't

work etc

the a is autonomy decentralizing

decision making and allowing people to

self-select what they want to work on as

much as possible which is one of the

hardest things for a CEO or an

entrepreneur to do is to say listen

here's our mission our mission is 10

million viewers whatever it is doing

this and this and this

we want to give you the authority and

autonomy to go and work on projects that

are aligned with our MTP go

Google does this a bit

um the master of this I should tell this

quick story there's a Chinese appliance

manufacturer called hire h-a-i-e-r they

make like 55 million fridges in ovens

here Jesus yeah there's a huge company

um and uh um 80 000 people operating in

a classic pyramid form command and

control hierarchical as heck CEO one day

decides can't be my corporate goals with

this structure blows it up turns 80 000

people into 2000 teams of about 40

people each each team has a p l Target

each team elects their own leader and

most insane each team decides to do

whatever they want to do

now you go to any business school in the

world say I want to make 55 million

fridges and that'll tell you you need a

ton of centralized demand forecasting

inventory managers supply chain

turns out you don't

these literally these 2000 teams work

autonomously like a beehive every team

is deciding what they how do they decide

what teams to keep they don't they the

teams decide on their own you can't get

fired if you you can't if your team

doesn't mean it's p l targets you have

an issue

and the way they meet their parental

targets is they work on a product and

the products are the revenues are pooled

against that product so when they

literally can't imagine this there's a

whole book there's a whole book written

on this it's an amazing case study

what's the book called I'll get you the

title the case study is higher

um and when they want to vote on what

when decide what features should we go

in a new fridge they vote and 2000 teams

that are constantly outwardly facing

with vendor suppliers Partners customers

that come up with a much better decision

than some product strategy team hold up

with Market forecasts and research

groups right and so uh GE Appliances

actually gave up and sold that whole

division to hire because they couldn't

compete because you can do so much more

with the decentralized organization

we're not quite ready for Dows but we

will be over time and you're kind of

building one in in this I'm not I'm

violently not building a dow well think

about what you're doing right with your

metaverse environment anybody can come

in self-provision

and play in that environment they can

play in that environment they're

certainly trying to build things so that

they can build in that environment but

that is that's a platform play like I

get platforms and so our fantasy would

be on a long enough timeline where like

the YouTube of video games that's right

so people can come in and build not we

we could go down a rabbit hole about how

we're going to be different than Roblox

but we have a vision but leveraging some

of that but this is like I literally

wrote before you started talking the

thing I want to talk about is how you

leverage autonomy so the way that we

think about it at impact theory is I

want people to be able to make decisions

in their area like okay your function is

art for instance I'm not going to come

in and turn you into a pair of hands I

want you to think for yourself you

understand our objectives go do the art

thing but we set the objectives as a

company then the department sets their

own objectives and then the individual

works with their supervisor to set it

yeah but this is not hey you're in a

team of 40 and like I hope you meet your

piano know like I can't fathom how you

get to that I have to imagine that this

is never going to be the standard it's

non-trivial to implement but when you

can Implement is very powerful let me

give you two examples that bridge the

Spectrum one is if you're an employee

and you join Google as a new hire okay

you're not placed on a team what they do

is go you've got six months float around

meet different teams work with them how

do they decide to hire you you have to

they're hiring they hire basically

that's it they're super smart and we

know we need python developers so hire

the python developer now do you work on

Gmail do you work on Google Maps Etc

what you do is you float around as that

developer or front-end person or

designer whatever your skill set is and

you float around you meet the different

teams you see where you have chemistry

you go I really love what they're doing

on Google Maps team seems like me to go

sure come and join us now if after six

months you haven't found a team bigger

conversation you probably don't fit

there for some reason but if you found a

team after choosing over six months all

of a bunch of different options you're

probably where you really really like

being right so now off they go so that's

one example of implementing this in the

new hire model the full extent of

autonomy I'll give you the example of

Tangerine Bank in Canada which is used

to be ING Direct so they operate on this

fully autonomous basis they have no CEO

no reporting Lines no management teams

no middle management no meetings of any

kind they literally operate on a beehive

where each employee self-selects us to

what they want to do okay now you're a

regulated Bank Canadian banks are very

regular right so what happens is when

the marketing guy goes oh let's do an

online promotion because he's

self-selected wants to focus on that and

they launch an online promotion

everybody floods to the phone Banks and

helps out getting phone calls when it's

regulatory reporting time they all fled

to the regulatory systems and fill out

all the paperwork to fill out all the

forms to show the Canadian government

that they're viable the most amazing

example I've seen of this is valve

software out of Seattle that makes the

steam platform but for people same ethos

no CEO reporting lives so if I spot a

bug in the software I grab three people

we go fix the bug we disband every

employee self-selects what they want to

work on and it sounds completely like a

joke but they get more Revenue per

employee than Microsoft they make a

fortune

so it's very doable maybe you have to

start it you have to start it with that

principle in mind yeah it's like physics

something a particle born above the

speed of light can't go slower and below

the speed you can't see the speed of

light I think you have to this is found

founding uh starting conditions for your

company yeah this is I did I don't know

what I find harder to believe

reincarnation or that you can do this

but look I I don't shut down emotionally

I'm very open I just everything that I

know with perhaps just my limited skill

set that is a recipe for chaos or you

have to hit a certain size like when I

think about Google being able to do that

there's no way that you can start like

that I get how you can get so big you

have so much Surplus money that you can

let a person wander around for six

months with no like real specific job or

that you can hire somebody just oh you

know Python and you're smart great you

know valve software is about 400 people

it's not that they're also the company

when when you said uh we're doing a a

case study on valve in the book I was

like Oh you mean the company that

couldn't get Half-Life three or two

whichever it was out for 15 years I was

like yeah I'm not surprised but then you

said that they make more per employee so

I was like ah [ __ ] yeah so it directed

execution turns out to be non-trivial in

these organizations it's like Dow

governance right it's an oxymoron it's

very hard yes right so um but in terms

of resilience unbelievable

because you cannot break that

organization because everybody's

self-selecting when there's a problem

they naturally find the problem they go

fix it I think you need to still you

need to desire for that people need to

actually have to hire you can't you know

Tony Shea tried for three years to

implement that into Zappos and it just

failed you can't bring it into it this

is why we say when you're an existing

organization and you want to turn in

Newton EXO don't go through the

nightmare of trying to transform

yourself put up create new axles on the

edge and let those slowly become the new

Gravity let me see the example of the

company maybe it was the washing machine

company or the fridge company but they

literally were like uh we're firing

everybody and then a third of hiring

them left and they restarted with

two-thirds and they did just fine uh

Zappos did that and so did higher it was

higher than you look in fact Zappos when

Tony shade first suggests he voluntarily

said who wants to move to this model and

everybody was like yeah this is crazy

we're not doing that so then you went we

strongly suggest that you move to this

model then finally he said if you don't

move to that model you're fired and even

then it failed very hard to implement

into a legacy organization did we finish

the attributes oh so autonomy and the

final one of social Technologies

um Asana slack Zoom chatter Yammer Etc

it allows you to implement people

together right we found we have really

good evidence today the peer-to-peer

collaboration is much more powerful than

traditional top-down command and control

thinking so what do you guys think about

what Elon is doing at Twitter he

recently was interviewed and he said it

is immoral

to work from home

and I was like wow yeah we had this

conversation yesterday about you know uh

listen I miss having an office setting I

do and I miss and I I recognize and

realize that the intensity of the amount

of work that gets done when a group is

together is substantially higher than

alone but you know the flip side of that

is the geographic Arbitrage that I can

get access to Talent that I might not

otherwise get to move to Santa Monica

yeah

yeah I mean my CEO lives in the Bay Area

my VP finances in Spain my head of

communities in Cape Town

we have a totally distributed

organization and yes we're less

efficient than if everybody was in one

place but I can operate across multiple

time zones seamlessly people are living

where they want to live they're living

with their families etc etc so I'm a

Believer in the remote work side yeah I

also think we're going to see a

transition as uh as the next generation

of metaverse systems come online you

know if we're there will be a point

where we are sitting in the metaverse

and I feel like I'm here with you and

having this conversation and hopefully

the glassware becomes light enough and

easy enough where it's it's very

interactive the key heuristic I think

when you think about Elon with Twitter

Etc and people is do you trust them do

you trust your people right and most

corporations operate out of mistrust

you're like checking things and you have

to file a travel expense reports etc etc

and the entire structure is set up to

mistrust you

and when we move to this new model of

exos by default you tend to trust the

teams to do what they're trying to do

best you're trying to trust you trust

Over Control right trust beats control

is one of the key implications Jerry

mikulski is one of our community members

said this brilliantly he said

um uh scarcity equals abundance minus

Trust

it's interesting for me it doesn't come

down to trust I don't even want to have

to think about the people on my team I

want to play my position I want them to

play theirs and I never want to have to

think about it it really comes down to

results and focus and like you need like

this is going to be interesting saying

to you guys but you need some variation

of the immune system in that the immune

system will detect cancer so yes it can

say no to things that it shouldn't say

no to but it can also stop the free

writers and the the just reality is that

you will get people using Game Theory to

be like oh you can hide in this company

and everybody can just do whatever the

hell they want you will get people that

then just become selfish and then other

people look at that and resentment

builds and so you get other people yeah

how do you know there's there's a uh my

I'm moving all of my companies onto

something called the EOS the

entrepreneurial operating system

is informal it is it's a it's a it's so

you can go look it up entrepreneurial

operating system and um uh and what we

do is we meet and it's a process of

thinking and running your organization

sort of like an operating system for a

company and we have what's called a 10x

meeting every week with the entire group

we're reviewing our rocks our our action

items uh our dashboards and everybody's

got assigned specific actions and and uh

and it's not possible to hide in that

regard a few properly implement okrs you

you really can't hide and yet you can

give people a lot of autonomy and they

can go do their thing but whether it's

EOS or whatever the model is it brings

it together so we have today very modern

team and individual performance

structures that allow us to handle that

true you can hide in traditional

organizations

because there's 20 developers on some

team and nobody knows really Who's the

who the rock stars are

HR never knows yeah one thing we've

noticed with the particular indictment I

would have is today's most big

corporations are structured in a matrix

structure products on the verticals and

they have legal HR branding privacy Etc

and Terry Semel when he was running

Yahoo made the mistake of putting in a

matrix structure into it and it's like

that structure is great for kind of

command and control but it's terrible

for risk-taking and it's terrible for

Speed because every time you try and do

something you want to you have to clear

all those levels so it's taking as close

to a year to release some feature on

Yahoo personals and Myspace was released

and Facebook was the killer here where

they came along and Zuckerberg said if

you feel your code is ready take it live

on the live side we'll give you access

to the live side your code better be

good because otherwise if you take the

take us down you're fired but the

developers got such a sense of

empowerment and autonomy from that and

and wow he trusts us to let us take our

code lab they were rolling out features

every week do they still do that I'm not

sure if they still do that but that was

what got them that was what blew Myspace

away to Yahoo away at the time the early

days of high risk taking for any

entrepreneurial company is is amazing

where we don't have a legal department

yet when you don't have an HR department

and over time power cruise to the

horizontals because they have no

incentive in saying yes and so when we

coach CEOs we basically say take all

those horizontal layers and every three

four years just blow them up and

reinvent them so tell me where can

people follow along with you guys to

learn the stuff in detail to get help

executing we have built a community

around this whole model called in the it

sits at openexo.com and people can go

there it's free to join we now have 24

000 Consultants entrepreneurs innovators

in 140 countries that are using these

models to apply them to come join us on

the master class yeah either join us

live on the six or get the master class

in the book and the AI afterwards if you

haven't already be sure to subscribe and

until next time my friends be legendary

take care peace AI is changing the world

at an insane pace and if you want to

learn all about it be sure to watch this

episode with the Godfather of AI himself

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