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RE: Planners -v- Schedulers -v- Keyboard Jockeys
There is a consensus in general on this topic that Planning is more then being
able to use the tools.
I like David B’s comparison with a carpenter who is a wizard with the use of his
saw.
Just think what the situation would be if he/she did not understand how to
measure and calculate a length or angle of a cut.
This carpenter would perform a wonder job as long there was someone else to
mark the timber for him/her.
Don’t you agree?
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Bill,
As the guilty party that started this topic, you are one of the few who has
grasped what I’m on about. I entirely agree with your post.
It is interesting though that it seems to be just us ’old lags’ that have these
sentiments, the majority of the other posts, it seems to me anyway, that it is
the ’youngsters’ have come from the basic P3 course, whom I call keyboard
jockeys, perhaps rising to scheduler level through some project experience.
Planning engineers? never! not until they’ve come up through the ranks with
mucky boots first.
Just need to read through the earlier posts and the absolute twaddle that’s
been posted to see what I’m talking about.
In way though, I’m glad that project managers hire these guys ’cos when they
cock it all up, these project managers will come crying looking for an
experienced ’hairy ars...d’ planning engineer from the old school.
Cheers,
Andy
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file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[1].html (1 of 5)11/02/2008 9:03:49 AM

You guys are correct in your comments.
Soooo many times people claim to be a planner because they took the 4 day p3
course and think that qualifies them.
Get many applications like this for a job with my company and after a 5 minute
chat find out applicants could not even plan to grab their own tail with both
hands but can speak the verbage of primavera.
FIRST BECOME A PLANNER, ON THE JOB WITH PEN AND PAPER

THEN LEARN HOW TO RUN A PROGRAM, PUT TWO TOGETHER AND THEN
THEY COULD APPLY TO KEY IN DATA BUT STILL ARE NOT A PLANNER.
When I was planning before computers, I-J Node type work, we had paper
running all down the halls and draftsman daily updating them. That was planning
before computers.
And upper managment grabs a phase like A CRITICAL PATH ITEM and have not
idea what the heck a critical path is.
Makes me blood riseeee.
so keep advising the younger ones, to get a job as a site supe or something first,
get the boots muddy, and then come up to a role that would allow them to use
their degree.
cheers bill
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Daya
How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly
put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)
Raf
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Daya
How right you are. Old and experienced is my motto, because as you so rightly
put it Garbage in is Garbage Out, but nowadays Garbage in Gospel Out :-)
Raf

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It’s a great conversation at all. Just wanna to jot down a several statements
here. How to be a great planner must have great experiences.
Different company, different project, different people of project team have a
different execution. This is more important the way you grew up persistently.
Primavera, MS project, Monte Carlo and Maximo just only software’s, just only
tools. But that one is advantage if u can control and expert on these tools.
The success any events are directly proportional to the timely preparation. Just
work so hard then we can make our dreams comes true.
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David, i agree with you in toto. if you don’t know how to manipulate the software
to get your desired output, then ou have a problem. On the other hand, if you
don’t know the desired output, but you know how to manipulate the software,
you also have a problem. like you sai "pretty competent in all areas".. cheers..
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I have been thinking about this recently (see also my post http://www.
planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=9&Top=40131) and I see
software as a tool. What about the analogy with a carpenter… could anyone say
they are a carpenter without being able to use a saw? And is the carpenter
liable to be a better carpenter if he is highly proficient at using his saw?
My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that I also think it difficult to separate
planner/scheduler/keyboard jockey. I don’t think such roles could be carried
out in isolation and those who want to practise in our discipline out to be pretty
competent in all areas.
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Raphael
I still have a few hairs on my head but alas most of them are grey.
I know what you mean and how right you are.
I look up in despair when some planner puts software above knowledge,
experience, collaboration and logical thinking. Never the less modern planning
software does help do the calculations for the more complex projects, help with
comparing different methods, and help with reprints (I would not like to go back
to the days when we had to draw the final chart by hand)
However, computers and software are only tools. The planner and his/her clear
thinking, (and as you say) talking to colleges and always looking for better ways
is the key to success.
"Garbage in Garbage out"
"Gems in Gems out"
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Guys
Those of us who have travelled the world for more years than we have hair left
years going from project to project, having to cope not only with the whims of
the client, the vagaries of people who say they are engineers, site mangers et al
and those who know better will have you "do it my way" can claim to be Senior
Planners and Schedulers
But you get on and do the Plan without recourse to computers and software,
then you get some idea of the hard yakka needed, the depth of understanding
of delivery requirements, which WILL always occur regardless of your plan.
Completion WILL always occur. But for what cost and time.
Now you are on your way to understanding that all projects have their own life
and most of all the politicians in the project most certainly will get the credit
for your work.
But you know you are right and perhaps you are now learning that Planning is
NOT about being a software jockey.
Primavera certainly doesn’t make you a planner and Primavera do not claim that
the software will make you what you are not.
Scheduling too has it’s joys, but unless you know the way the maths works and
you know how to create a half decent network through logic and not a Gantt,
then you may be on the way.
Project Planning and Scheduling is an intellectual process. Knowing what it is

that you are going to Plan and Schedule is paramount.
Some of the postings on this site have made me cry with the stupidity of them.
eg "asking what is Resource scheduling about and getting many replies telling
them look up a software package. ugh
Back to basics and do it properly on paper first, or if you cannot live in this
electronic age without some form of equipment, use a whiteboard. Build the plan
with the folk who are going to do the work, who else is going to tell you - the
planner how it will be done.
Most of planning and scheduling is done initially on paper then when we know we
have the answer the client is expecting, then and only then does it go into the
computer.
Then the fun starts in understanding what the software did to your beautiful
balanced PLan.
But then that is another story
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Message
RE: Primavera training ebook
i am not saying, we shud not attend Primavera course. It might be useful, but
not for you, as they charge heavily for that and u want it FREE.
I dont think, Paul Harris’s book is available FREE of COST.
You really need to pay for that or need to find somebody in vietnam who can
share with you.
Cheers,
Ravi
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Hi Raviraj.
Oh, I see. So we should not attend Primavera course.
Can I find a free ebook of PauHarris cause cost is a problem for me. I wanna
study it for my furture career.My company does not pay for that. :-)
Hope to receive your advice.
Regards
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K D,
P102, P106 are hand-outs which they offer along with their courses and for that
u need to attend the courses and pay good chunk of money.
I have never used though, but I heard they are like Doughnut - GOOD FOR
NOTHING
Its better if you can purchase PAUL HARRIS’s book on primavera. Its worth
reading and available in market easily. (www.amazon.com or www.eh.com.au)
Cheers,
Ravi
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Hi Raviraj
Thank you so much. It’s very useful.
But do you have training ebook for P5 or P6. Primavera have course like P102,
P106...in their website. Do you have ebook for those course.
Thanks in advance
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K D,
Here it is.
http://rapidshare.com/files/21965623/0957778376_3pdf.rar
You can try for this as well.
ftp://suppsaleserver.primavera.com/docs/5.0/ConstEng/
Hope this may help you.
:-)
Ravi
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Hi all.
Does anyone know where I can download Primavera training ebook to study ?
That’ll be great if it is free cause cost is a problem for me. :-)
Thanks in advance
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RE: Access / VBA guide
Check:
www.avaxhome.org for more VB / Excel / Access books. U can find 100’s of

books on d subject
:-)
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My french is servicable in a bar or down at the market, but not good enough to
read technical manuals!
Actually, I think I’m going to give the O’Reilly "integrating Excel and Access" a
whirl, I have a few of their books already and they seem to take an approach
that suits me.
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James,
do you read french? www.editions-eni.com has plenty of things for you, i.e.
VBA Access 2007 - Programmer sous Access
Auteur : Michèle AMELOT,
C# 2.0 et SQL Server 2005
Maîtrisez le développement et l’accès aux données
Auteur : Jérôme GABILLAUD - Hervé BERTHET
and many others
Alexandre
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Access / VBA guide
Can anyone recommend a good Acces / EXCEL / VBA & SQL guide.
I have a good knowledge of both Access and Excel GUI use but not how to
implement scripts macros and all that. Specifically I’m after being able to use
the linked Pervasive ODBC access tables to produce automated worklists, 3 day
lookaheads, progress reports etc either outputting them to Access reports or
to Excel sheets for graphing etc. I am making progress on this on my own, but it
would be useful to have some sort of reference guide to refer to
So, the guide should provide me with;
- advanced tools in the Access / Excel GUI

- VBA and SQL scripting guide for Access and Excel
- VBA and SQL reference and syntax guide, general and specific to Access /
Excel
- How tos for common tasks
- a tea maker and possibly a cigarete roller
Thanks
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RE: HELP ****** e-learning or distance learning training
Hi there,
French PAR was gently distributing an evaluation version of P3 a few years ago;
they have ceased the service, but I am still doing.
If you are interested, I will give you the link in a Private Message.
Alexandre
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SureTrak would be the best in my opinion as the principals are the same for all
software packages and there is demonstration software available which is free.
Paul E Harris
Eastwood Harris Pty Ltd, Melbourne, Australia
Planning and Scheduling Training Manual & Book Publishers & Consulting
www.eh.com.au
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Hi,
Thanks
In my case, what would be most suitable to start with?
Obviously, no point getting a software that cost trementous and find it difficult
to use or not using any of the functions.
In your opinion and experience which one is most suitable or do you have any
questions before recommending?
I would say, my use will be say what a main contractor would use for.
Maybe a claim analysis would use too?
Can the demenstration software be used to learn?

Thanks
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RE: HELP ****** e-learning or distance learning training
In summary
1. SureTrak is the old lightweight product

2. P3 is the old heavy weight product
3. Primavera Version 6.0 is the new heavy weight product which is an upgrade of
the Primavera Version 5.0. I am in the process of upgrading my P5.0 book.
4. Primavera Contractor is the new lightweight product, Version 5.0 is out and
6.0 will be out soon.
I suggest you go to the www.primavera.com for more technical information.
A demonstration version of SureTrak was available to be downloaded from the

Primavera site. I do not think there are demonstration versions of any of the
other software, you may wish to check the Primavera site. If you buy a copy of
the SureTrak book from me I can include a copy of the demonstration software,
I am sure I still have some somewhere.
Paul E Harris
www.eh.com.au
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Hi,
Thanks
Just to clarify, what are the differences between:
1)Planning Using Primavera SureTrak Project Manager Version 3.0 - Updated

2006 -
2)Planning Using Primavera Project Planner

P3 Version 3.1 - Revised 2006
3) Project Planning and Scheduling Using

Primavera Version 4.1
For Engineering & Construction and Maintenance & Turnover
4)Project Planning and Scheduling Using

Primavera Contractor Version 4.1
For the Construction Industry
Much appreciate advises/comments given

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Paul’s books (specifically, Planning Using Primavera Project Planner Version 3.0)
are very helpful. The benefits are worth the price ($50-$65 American) of
admission.
However, you will have to do alot of research to get up on the theories behind
scheduling. This subject is not dealt with in any real depth in aforementioned
book.
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Hi Paul,
Just visited your website.

What would you recommend to a beginner who is working in the construction
industry as a site QS with a contractor but do not have any experience with
planning but wish to make a start or maybe a career change sometime in the
future.
Where can one get the programme without breaking the bank?
Maybe which book is a good one to start and which one to follow after that.
Thanks
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Steve
My books are designed to be used as self teach books.
Paul E Harris
www.eh.com.au
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HELP ****** e-learning or distance learning training
I am extremely interested in undertaking a Primavera training course. Ideally i

would like to do this from home. Could anyone recommend an e-learning or
distance learning training provider.
Thanks in advance
Steve
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Message
RE: How to get Take-Off qty’s???
If you want an accurate measurement of quantities you have to take into

account not only every drawing and spec but also every standard used in the
proyect.
If you dont need to be so near of the truth or maybe the project is not so
advance maybe ratios can help you to have in mind what is the overall amount of
work to be done.
It is easier and sometimes, as far as statistics are near reality, it works.

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thisHow to get Take-Off qty’s???
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In order to take off quantities, you have to gain exprianse in the following:
Analizing the contract drawings.
Knowing the basic measurement techniques and methods including the
traditional ones.
Making work breakdown structure(WBS).
Collecting the required activities and doing proper identifications and dicritions
in separate items with related uints of mesuremants.
Using AUTO CADD software.
Analizing the provisional sum and the general items.
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I suggest to study how to read a tecnical drawings (mechanical, piping, eletrical,
structure ...) There is a lot os curses and books for this.
Regards.
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Hi Richard
Try the traditional way, get a full set of full size drawings, (avoid having on A3
shot downs), along with the full specifications, contract etc, good scale rule, and
a set of coloured pens / pencils. (Note: Always be weary with scalling directly
from drawings - always believe the dimensions)
Have a good read of the contract, specifications and drawings, try to

understand what you are trying to build etc.
Work out the sequence that the work will be carried out, if its a steel framed
building, start with ground clearance, drainage, foundations, steel work, floors,
claddings, outfitting etc etc .
Work out a colour coding for your pens / pencils against the work you will need
to identify.
Produce a proforma sheet of paper (or spread sheet), usual headings, item no.,
description, qty, size, etc etc.
Then "flog" thro the drawings /specs. in your predetermined order. As you
"take-off" items/quantities color the drawing item in and make notes etc, then
add/update your proforma / Spread sheets. At the end of the job you will need
to rationalize similiar types / quatities etc.
Work out a percentage error that you think you may have made, i.e. not a full
set of drawings, holds on drawings and add to your quatities, and qualify what
you have done.
If the drawings are in CAD format and you have access to the CAD system, then
you can use CAD to do a lot of your calculations. (great for really fancy profiles
in steel plate etc).
At the end of the job you will not only be an expert on the building but also you
will know all the quanties etc.
Their are various bits of computer software you can use to help you - try
trawling the webb for details.
Best of luck
John
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You can used AutoCADD to get it. Tools...inquiry...distance...area then click to

the sides of materials you want to know.
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just hire a Q.S.
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Thanks for your answers. I do not have too much experience analyzing drawings
and I am interested in learning to get take-off quantities from all the
disciplines (civil, mechanical, electrical and instrumentation), specially the
mechanical works (structural, piping, equipments, etc.).
Thank you in advance.

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Just use basic mensuration techniques on drwing
Basically L X B X H=.....Volume
and L X B =....Area
:D
Thats all ...........
Then the rest depends on what kind of quantities you are searching for!
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Do u have experience in analizing drws??
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How to get Take-Off qty’s???
Hi all,
I wish to learn how do you get take-off quantities??? I will appreciate any
comments about this issue. Thank you in advance.
Richard.
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Message
RE: Professional Qualifications?? Are There Any
I was asked in an interview once if I have PSP. "sure" I said and whipped it out.
"not that kind of PSP" ;-P
Someone asked about this qual a week or so back, is it any good / reaonably
priced for us independants to go after? More importantly is the content
interesting?
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Try searching for the planning & Scheduling professional (PSP) qualification.
However it does have a high level of failure to pass rate.
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Hi Pat,
It really depends on what you want, PRINCE2 Practitioner or APM Certification

are both good, but may not have exactly the emphasis that you require. The only
thing that I can suggest is that you have a look around; try for example some of
the courses offered by The Planning Engineers Organisation. There are also
useful courses offered by the Project Management Instutute.
There are some courses run by the International Project Management

Association, but I’m not sure of the venues.
Hope this is useful.
Chris Oggham
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Professional Qualifications?? Are There Any
Hi people
I am wondering if there is anything planning wise to rival say Prince2

qualifications or Institute of Chartered Project Managers.
Is there an equivalent qualification for us planners, if not can anybody

recommend decent training & qualifications to aim for.
I am thinking of doing Prince2 or APMP purely because of the lack of decent

project planning specific courses & qualifications.
Any info would be greatly received.
Thanks
Pat Gaughan
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RE: Building information modelling
I saw some BIM recently and signed up for email updates and got this from
Bentley:
http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Products/Bentley+Building+Electrical+Systems/?
skid=CEE_NA_ESEM_BBES_EM2&MIG=DC9EABF8B385D9F1BF3400123F680114
This week Bentley’s BIM Elements eSeminar series presents Bentley Building
Electrical Systems.
Bentley Building Electrical Systems is the leading BIM application for design and
documentation of building electrical systems. In our 5 part eSeminars series
through the months of December and January, we will show you how to easily work
with the software, create lighting designs, perform energy analysis, fire alarms
and suppression systems, and raceway and circuit routing. Each session will cover
interoperability with other BIM applications, creation of documentation, and
creating your electrical designs within BIM models. We will also show how using
Bentley Building Electrical Systems in a project environment illustrates the
productivity enhancements that can be gained in today s demanding workplace.
Our first session will be held on December 5th at 11:00 am EST with a overview
session of the software as well as an agenda of what we will be covering in the
upcoming sessions. Do not miss this session if you design electrical systems or
hand off your models to electrical engineers. Click here to register for Session 1
on December 5th.
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Hi
Do anyone have idea about BIM, is anybody working on it, and are there institutes
offering training on it.
cheers
Mangesh
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file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[12].html11/02/2008 9:03:59 AM
Message
RE: Monkeys or Humpty Dumpties… Which is Worse?
"... assumption is that if someone ... writes a book they are fit to tell us all
where we are going wrong."
This is not something about which I have thought much, but I tend to read
books with a healthy (some might say rampant) scepticism. I regard books as
nothing more than the author’s opinions, and consider how well those opinions
are supported by logical arguments and/or (the author’s) personal experiences.
I suppose there are some who regarded each and every printed word as Gospel.
I find this concept mildly disturbing, but do not begrudge anybody the right to
write and publish their opinions.
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Brad...
Lack of ambition? Don’t knock it... I started as a trainee planner in 1977 and I
am still a planner, I just hope I am better now that I was then - but I can’t
guarentee that!
David
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wow what a reply, im just a little old contractor whom does not want to be a high
flyer very happy in situ,
regards
brad
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Brad
There is a myth that, in 1899 a US Patent Office official resigned and

recommended that the Patent Office be closed because he thought that
everything that could possibly be invented had already been invented! Isn’t that
a bit like saying there are enough books out there to last a lifetime? What if
Rapheal has discovered the secret of [planning] life?
My original intent in starting this thread was about people in glasshouses

throwing stones – maybe I was too subtle though (but that is not usually one of
my strongest suits). In my opinion, it takes someone to be very narcissistic, or
over-confident, to criticize the efforts of other so roundly when they
themselves are, apparently, not paragons of good practice and, as far as I am
aware, have not experienced some of the things that they imply others ought to.
I do tend to agree with you that to become a planner is from experience and of
working on projects at a junior level and learning from experienced planners,
PM’s etc; though not necessarily the only way and perhaps the ‘perfect planner’
would have other ingredients too. Our problem in today’s market seems to be to
me that no-one wants to stay the course in planning and after a few years the
preferred career move (especially for high-flyers) is up and out into project
management and contracts management.
As I said before the world is full of ‘experts’ – and the assumption is that if
someone studies a subject, passes exams and perhaps just writes a book they
are fit to tell us all where we are going wrong; some might be, some might not.
The same is true of experience; just being there is not enough, it has to be the
right or ‘good’ experience that counts.
And Brad, whilst your contributions are amusing (?), and we all need levity at
times, they don’t really raise the level of the debate or help in determining
answers to some of the problems posed.
No offence intended, just think I got out of bed too early and on the wrong side
today.
David
ps. I say I am in ‘Forensic Claims Analysis’ because that is the closest match in
the list to what I mainly do. Projects I work on are not always run badly by my
clients, as often as not I work on projects that have been run badly or
administered by others or that have got into delay or trouble for a whole list of
reasons that can’t be accurately described as someone’s fault. Whether it is a
nice market to be in or not is debatable, it is a lot less comfortable than being
an ‘overhead’ in a large organisation for instance.
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david get bitchy there mate, theme or not there are enough books out there (if
rapahel wants to write one then go ahead) to last a lifetime, the only way to
become a planner is from experience and of working on projects at a junior level
and learning from experienced planners, PM’s etc, you are in claims which says to
me you work on projects that have been run badly by clients of yours, whicn is a
nice market to get into i believe,
regards
brad
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David B
As a good writer of papers/books already I know I have to attribute peoples

work, but only if it is good work and adds to the Knowledge.
Otherwise the round filing cabinet has to take a beating.
Boy we realy got something going there.
Raf
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David B
Hell no, I have mates I have worked with who have been at it since the days of
Kelly and Walker and they are over ten years older than me !
I agree about "Experts", which is why I called my product

X-Pert.
A Little learning is a dangerous thing I was once told by a wise and young guru,
but then it was back in the days of rationing !
Sheer slog, hard metres (we don’t do yards any more)hours and hours having
deep and meaningful discussions with the Project Manager, who always knew the
critical path went through the lift motor room, so your plan is no good, because
it doesn’t.
Hardens you up, keeps you wise and you still go on.

It is amazing to think that 15 years after the Boston report on project failures
came out in 1992, the most recent KPMG one, came out with almost the same
result.
But in that 15 years we have accredited tens of thousands of professional

project managers.
Perhaps they need to listen to the Planners and Schedulers a bit more and
accept that you really can’t do do two years work in 18 months.
Ah well, must go back to my planning
Ciao
Raf
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R... you answered already - put them in the box marked ’Brad’ (or did Brad
already contribute with the theme!)
D
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what do you want to know whether good or evil won you will have to wait until
you have written your books wont you!!1
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Raphael
I forgot to ask - what are you going to do with the suggestions/contributions

from Charlie!
David
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RE: HELP
Tom,
NEVER A WRONG TIME TO DO THE RIGHT THING!!
This is what I meant.
Cheers,
Rav
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Yes, There’s never a wrong time to do the wrong thing. That impresses me much!
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Antonio,
Theres never a wrong time to do the right thing.
It all depends upon ur skill and aptitude level, weather after being so many
years of experience, would u like to like to do the same stuff as of 30 year chap.
u can definitely add value to professional career and will get more respec, but
there r even young professionals especially in planning & project control field
who are mere position fillers.
So, in toto, There’s a never a wrong time to do the RIGHT THING.
Cheers,
Rav
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RE: HELP
Antonio
Although suggestions, proposals etc are really benefitial at this stage but you
should send your CV to the Recruiters to seek the results .
Have you tried this option?
May you get good job opportunity based on your vast experience with 10 years
experience in Scheduling and Costing?
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Hi Anton,
It probably depends on your attitude to be a schedule! I myself think that

scheduling still have a lot of career for you to return, and your experience is
invaluable for employer.
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Hi Antonio,
Are you a filipino, please let me know. Uly
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I Want To Be Back In "Schedule/Cost Engineer" Career !
Dear Fellow Planners,
I’m 54 years old. Had 10+years Schedule/Cost Engineer experience ie.

construction, power plants, nuclear, etc.
But that was in the 1980’s. Then went to Sales Career (not related to
engineering) and now retired from it. Now my 3 daughters are soon going to
universities! I need to come out of retirement. (NO MORE SALES) I Want To
Be Back In "Schedule/Cost Engineer" Career! My first thought is to get
certified in Project Planning Software Programs (to catch up with current tools
of the trade - technology)....
Am I in the right path to - Be Back In "Schedule/Cost Engineer" Career !?
HELP ME, with your comments, thoughts, advise, and any response to my
situation.

I Want To Be Back In "Schedule/Cost Engineer" Career !

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Disaster Planning
I was curious if anyone has seen any jobs for disaster planners (prevention not
cause) on this site?
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RE: IS IT TOO LATE FOR ME TO MAKE A COME BACK?
tony
nothing will have changed in the upteen yrs you have not been doing project
controls, people will still bullshit you, try to pull the wool over your eyes, yeah
planning tools have changed and some ways of doing things, but the
fundementals of planning/project controls have not,
good luck
regards
brad
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Tony,
What I’m refering to cover up from colleagues are????
naive question
basic planning question
If you can find the answers better for you, meaning that you will not be
vulnerable.
Remember your colleagues are competitor also
plays it smart.
Ask here in PP and you will have 20,000++ planners willing to share ideas and
solutions.
Cheers
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Tony,
Believe in your person.
Whenever, Whatever you will encounter difficiency or difficulty, just cover it

up secretly from your colleagues by reading lots of books, post here in PP.
I can share you some effective excel progress s-curve, powerpoint presentation,
fundametal of project control: very simple THIS RELATES TO TRACKING
PROJECT ACTIVITIES, then what: CORRECTIVE ACTIONS.
Sell whatever ideas you have to the project manager or project team.
The rest will follows.
If you got stuck up, just let PP know or let me know.
I’ll be there to help you.
Cheers
Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant
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Hi Charleston,
Thanks for your opinion. You hit my line of thinking when I first contemplated
of returning to our industry. That, and the fact that there is a long term
shortage of project control professionals in our industry. Yes, I remember back
when as Project Control Engineer, collecting accurate actual progress, facts
’excuses’ on delayed activities and revising ‘realistic’ target completion dates
were easily perceived as adversarial by the inter disciplinary departments (ie.
engineering, purchasing, construction, shop fabrication, traffic/warehousing
etc…) unless sales talk and presentation in the execution of these tasks were
successfully sold to these different specialists!
I intend to apply myself efficiently by utilizing all my experience to the fullest!
Cheers,
Tony P.
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Dear Antonio,
It is never too late for you to make a come back.
Your sales experience gives you a lot of advantage compared to wanabees,

newbees, junior planner or even senior planner.
The fundamental of planning is communicating the plans and this need a lot of
sales talk, presentation, etc. In addition, planning engineers should be people
oriented due to the complexity of projects wherein planning engineers must get
the most ideas from different specialist.
I think you will succeed where others failed in the delivery of plans, schedule,
programs due to your sales experience.
What you need is to believe that you can do it and of course, prayer to the
Almighty that all your needs may realize.
Cheers,
Sensei
Successful Project Management Consultant
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Raphael M,
thanks for the input.
tony
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Antonio
With that amount of experience I think you would be very welcome in half the
world
Any half decent Planner and Scheduler is currently flat strap and making a mint.
The software by the way hasn’t chnaged all that much. In the main it is now web
based, but the basics of Critical Path haven’t changed since the day they were
invented
So go for it
I am still going after 52 years. You are never too old

Experience never dates .... !!
Raf

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IT TOO LATE FOR ME TO MAKE A COME BACK?
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Dear Fellow Engineers,
I have a BSME degree with 10+years Schedule/Cost Engineer experience ie.

construction, power plants, nuclear, etc.
But that was in the 1980’s. Since then I went to my own business in Sales (not
related to engineering) and now retired from it. With my 3 daughters soon going
to college! I need to come out of retirement. (NO MORE SALES) I Want To Be
Back In "Planning and Scheduling Engineering" Career! My first thought is to get
certified in Project Planning Software Programs (to catch up with current tools
of the trade - technology).... IS IT TOO LATE FOR ME TO MAKE A COME
BACK?
PLEASE HELP ME, with your comments, thoughts, advise, and any response to
my situation.
Sincerely,
Tony
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RE: Does anyone know of an aptitude test for planning ?
i hope not id be in big trouble if there was, my sixteen yrs of fobbing people off
would be exposed and id be out of work for ever!!!!!!!!!!
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RE: Does anyone know of an aptitude test for planning ?
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i hope not id be in big trouble if there was, my sixteen yrs of fobbing people off
would be exposed and id be out of work for ever!!!!!!!!!!
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lol very true
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heres one for the test
give them the name of the company but the wrong floor, the right building name
but the wrong number of the building.
if he cant make it to the interview he wont make it as a planner.
Bet you lose at least 50%

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Hi John,
Have you tried The Rockport Institute? They specialise in aptitude testing, so it
might be worth contacting them to see if they can help.
Chris Oggham
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Does anyone know of an aptitude test for planning ?
Hi All
I am currently going to be approaching various education centres to try and find

potential junior planners.
My difficulty is finding a way to streamline the process, with planning the way a
person thinks is really critical as you all know but it is difficult to judge that
with looking at school reports etc.
Does anyone know of an aptitude test that is available that potential juniors
could do that would test logical thinking etc. I am tempted to put one together
myself but if one already exists it would make my life a lot easier.
Thanks
John
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RE: University
Dear all,
All of the freinds in this site have a several experience that there is not in any
other university.
We able to share all of real experiense for other peolpe that like to study PM.
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Probably not, but he’s bound to make an acceptance speech at his nomination.
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Is he going to win?
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Hi Se and Anoon,
You do realise that you will have to listen to his entire acceptance speech, don’t
you?
Chris Oggham
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i second the motion...
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I nominate Charlie as Student Council President...........................I’m pretty sure
there will be lots others who will run against him hehehehe.....Isn’t that
exciting?
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RE: University
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Where’s the Student Union bar then? >.>

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Mehdi,
I think you are right, but I’d go even further and agree with Guy, we already
have a university within Planning Planet. Universities were originally places where
people with knowledge of a subject would go to exchange information, compare
ideas, try out theories and so on. Looking at it from that perspective, isn’t that
what is happening already within Planning Planet?
Chris Oggham
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Dear all,
I think at this time we able to establish Virtual University with Planning Planet
Platform.
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Dear Hindle,
Thank you for your comment.
I think we are able to start creat university with our resource ( money, brain,
know how)
B/R
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Primavera Contracts Manager
Is there any online training or Book available for the Primavera Contracts
Manager
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RE: The journey to becoming a planner has began- UK based
Anybody .....Please send me a P3 program on Railway construction to
reejabraj@yahoo.com
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Seems to me that the owner of the thread has pretty much all the skills to be a
planner.
As for books etc, you probably dont need them but an understanding of your
companies chosen software would be helpful, a course will point you in the
correct direction.
Charlie, read your comment glad to see you did not include Hong Kong in what
can only be described as a racist diatribe, which I am sure everybody enjoyed.
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probably, am off for two weeks middle of next week with two new projects
having just kicked off, cant wait to get back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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is that why nothing ever gets done while we are on holiday or off sick?
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so what your saying is all PM’S are thickos and us planners are their
brains???????????
ha ha ha ha
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Hi,
This is from one of my previous threads
"Everybody knows that, P3/MSP is a great tool to help PLANNING ENGINEER

to save significant amount of time. But, like every other software, applications
like p3, MSP are just tools; they do not execute the entire job for the PMs. It
is unacceptable to expect a computer to manage the project, it just manages
the vast amount of data that large projects require to store. Project
management software is incapable of “establishing project objectives, define
project tasks or dependencies, determine and manage project constraints”.
As the significance of having a proper Statement of Requirement becomes more

and more apparent, project management software should consciously take a
secondary role in a project system since their power can only be exploited when
the project is defined correctly.
Computers can only help producing wrong plans faster, instead of understanding
the critical path.
A Planning Engineer is not only a BUTTON PUSHER; but he is the brain of PM on

the basis of which the entire project team works (say 1000’s of workforce)."
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’Our courses assume no planning experience and at the end of 5 days we are
comfotable that you will be able to sit at a PC and prepare a properly
constructed plan in Primavera.’
I think (hope) peter was meaning that after 5 days the person would be able to
sit down at a computer and understand how the bar chart works, how the
computer links tasks, the difference between various links, and generally the
understanding required to ’properly construct’ a plan on primavera. this could be
a programme with 10 simple tasks in it. even with little planning experience, i
think the underlying principles could be understood in 5 days. things like the
difference bewteen hammocks and summarys, milestones and buffer tasks,
critical paths and float...
i dont think peter is actually meaning that after 5 days the person could sit
down and plan a £250milllion stadium. indeed. This has really snowballed into a
peter lynching after one misunderstood comment from Annon. Yet again we are
off the point and veering towards complete nonsense.
’What you guys are saying is that, once completing a short 5 day course on, lets
say, PrimaVera for that matter, you are then entitled to call yourself a planner /

scheduler’
?????? who said that?
Come on lads... lets not get carried away.

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A short 5 day course, even if offered by the best consultants in the world, does
not make one a planner / scheduler / manager, call the position what you want.
It only will put the person in a position to be able to utilise the software at hand.
Rather, a good planner /scheduler, is a person with a lot of background

knowledge and many years of experience in the chosen industry. Even better if
that same person has worked the tools for a number of years prior.
What you guys are saying is that, once completing a short 5 day course on, lets
say, PrimaVera for that matter, you are then entitled to call yourself a planner /
scheduler, No way man! get real.
People with this thought in mind, only serve to drag down the profession, and
introduce cheap labor into the planning market.
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Mike,
You could consider yourself to be a planner, or any of the other titles.
I worked for some guys from the states a couple of years ago and they called
me a scheduler.
You will also be interested to know they were very suprised by how high the
rates for "schedulers" were in the UK.
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So I’m from US. Is a "planner" in the UK and elsewhere the same as a

"scheduler" or project controls engineer in the US.
My title is project controls engineer, I create and manage construction

schedules in P5, and use Prolog Manager to manage budgets.
Been wanting to move away from Bush-land for a long time. Maybe that’s my
ticket.
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RE: Primavera Courses Hand Outs
As I state in my book information form, my books are aimed at teaching people

how to plan and control projects up to an intermediate level. I touch on
histograms and tables in my latest versions, but not in great detail.
Reporting could be a whole book on its own and the Primavera manual is quite
good in the way it presents reports, so I have not put too much effort in this
area and refer people to the Primavera manual.
The P3 book has been on the market and I get virtually no feedback and this is
the first time I have been asked for content to be added to the book. I am
quite happy to add chapters if there is demand. If I rewrite this book I will add
some more on reports.
I am starting my Primavera 6.0 book on Monday, I am happy to take any

suggestions on additional content for this book.
If anyone would like to get involved in reviewing books I have written a guide
for book reviewers and it is available on my web site under technical articles.
Paul E Harris
www.eh.com.au
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Paul,
I saw your book on Project planner p3 version, but disappointing is you have
missed one of the most important topic on graphical reports. Planners need to
generate histograms and s-curves and your book won’t help it on that corner.
cheers
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RE: Primavera Courses Hand Outs
hi
david i have hard copy of course 102
but its not useful.
its not at all useful than the help menu.
cheers
mangesh
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Hi There,
Of course, It is already known fact that those materials are distributed to the
people who attends those courses.
But please keep in mind that you have to pay hundreds of dollars for them too.
http://www.primavera.com/customer/training/courses.asp
That is why I am asking to the PP Members to share such materials.
Regards,
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These appear to be course notes that Primavera Systems provide with their
courses and are not normally available unless you attend a course.
Paul E Harris
www.eh.com.au
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Primavera Courses Hand Outs
Hi There,
How can I find Primavera Courses Hand Outs?
Course 102
Course 106-P
Course 106-R
Course 101
Course 107
etc.
Regards,
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RE: procurement/subcontracting schedule
Frans,
I’m not really sure what you need but I do would like to contribute something:
Activity Sample - Materials supply & installation subcontract package of stone

wall finish
Process:
1. Working Drawing = 12 days (could be shorter or longer)

2. Approval of Working Drawing = 6 days (sometimes stipulated in the contract
docs.)
3. Issue & return of RFQ = 6 days (your internal company policy. You try to
establish if none exist and have it approved by your boss)
4. Technical and Commercial Evaluation = 6 days (your internal company policy.
You try to establish if none exist and have it approved by your boss)
5. Final Adjudication = 6 days (could be less. (your internal company policy. You
try to establish if none exist and have it approved by your boss) )
6. Provide/Agree Sample with Client = 3 days (could be greater)
7. Issue Purchase Order = 1 day
8. Manufacture & Delivery = 12 days (could be provided by the supplier or
dectitated by the programme, etc.)
notes:
1. The durations are highly variable and are conditional in nature. Your
judgement forms a greater part in establishing total duration of each path/
package.
2. Total duration for the above sample is 52 days. For sure you could do better
than 52 days???
Hope it helps,
Arman
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Nar,
You got the answer on following post:
- Planning&Scheduling.... - Weight factor
there you have the answer,
Cheers
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somewhat related to proc.... can somebody give me feedback about the progress
tracking milestones and appropriate respective percentages? How can I do it if
proc has to weighted in terms of money other than durations.
cheers
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Frans,
The procurement activities in any schedule is the easiest part for the following
reasons:
1.- Activities are standard. I go to Procurement department, get a report and I

am able to identify the process. I identify two main processes;
a.- From Requisition to Purchase Order award
b. From Purchase order to delivery to SITE
2.- Linking activities is normally a FS link. They do the work in sequence.
3.- Linking Procurement with Engineering has normally four input points: Issue
of requisition, technical Evaluation of quotations, review/approval of vendor
data, some assistance to final test (if needed).
4.- Activities after Purchase award are responsibility of expeditors.
5.- Activities of delivery to Site: they can be one or split in pieces according the
information available for transport, custom clearance and internal transport to
site.
Activity duration: better to talk with buyers and expeditors. The most
important duration for fabrication is always on the Purchase Order.

The easiest Procurement link at the end is the arrival of Equipment to

construction activity SET-UP.
For major Equipment, a set of standard activities is defined . Different thing is

for any BULK material (piping, electrical, instrumentation).
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Frans,
There’s no such production rate for procurement and contracts schedule.
Check the availability of all project documents and list them according to
disciplines and identify the miising ones. Convert your BOQ to works packages
and in accordance with CSI coding system. One you have all on the system,
follow the advise of Datta (using historical records of projects undertaken from
your previous company).
Of course all of the above should be aligned with the latest construction
program.
Cheers,
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Thanks Datta
But the problem is: I will work for a company that is New in the business.
I think there must be some standards / best practices that have been written
and published by somebody.
Thx
Frans
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Dear Frans,
There is no ready made solution for all situations.
Check the historical data from your company database/Compile the steps/
stages of the work flow processes. Organise them by their broad types, like
Equipments, Bulks etc (sub divide them as per the types). Do a statistical
analysis & you will get a fair standard of durations/lead times for all your
queries.
Cheers
Datta
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what is the best approach to create procurement/subcontracting schedule?
Is there any standards mentioning about RFQ, TBA, PO, manufacturing time,
etc..etc.....
Is there any "production rate" like in Construction.
Until now I only use template.
Thanks in advance
Frans
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RE: Lokking for Powerproject trainer for 1 day course
Can you please send me the manual at kamelyon77@yahoo.com thanks.

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Hi,
Apologies if this is not appropriate to post this here, but would anybody be
interested in doing a 1 day introductory training course for Powerproject 7 in
London. All course outlines, exercise files, manuals and trainers notes could be
provided beforehand. It is quite a basic course.
Thanks, Laurie
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RE: Critical Paths - Are they all theyre cracked up to be?
or more fully for the smatarses
from the Vietnamese term for Vietnamese Communist (Viet Nam Cong San)
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Hi David,
Charlie (applied to irregulars or guerillas not the contributor to Planning Planet)

is a leftover from the Vietnam War. It comes from the NATO Phonetic
Aphabet table Victor Charlie - VC - Viet Cong.
Chris
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funny that isn’t charley the term they use for guerrillas
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Oh yes, forgot possibly fraudulent misrepresentation in the last post as well.
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Lots of interesting points raised here. Ironically I posted a similar message in
another post yesterday. First and foremost a programme is a tool for the
management of the project.
Fail to plan properly, plan to fail.
The programme should be as accurate as knowledge and time permits. I agree it

is often the case that the time given to produce a programme or the
information available falls far short of what is needed. But this is still no excuse
for not producing the best you can at the time.
As for manipulating the critical path, if you do this the programme is not worth
the paper it’s printed on so doesn’t fulfil its intended purpose. May as well throw
it in the bin.

It’s also embarrassing and not good for your career when someone else gets to
scrutinise it in a later dispute to be told and shown that you were wrong, your
effort was obviously flawed and that you misrepresented the truth. I would
suggest that such manipulation actually falls far short of the standard expected
from a professional planner and at least amounts to wilful deceit, possibly
negligence.
My advice to all planners is to do what you’re employed to do – plan the job. This
way the project has the greatest chance of being successful and everybody is
happy.
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just back from holiday...
scots pie... hilarious.
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Gents - a very interesting debate, highly emotive, but has been somewhat
hijacked by invective.
Notwithstanding the fact that each party has put forth valid points of
argument, we must begin to use language that becomes more precise in terms of
its defintion. Apologies if the next lecture is granny-sucking-egg.
First: we must not confuse the word EXACT or PRECISE with the word
ACCURATE. Any numerical manipulation, using the input variables, as derived,
will arrive at an EXACT or a PRECISE value. However, the variables that form
part of the equation determine the potential ACCURACY of the result - as
comparing the theoretical result with the actual result. Perhaps to help
understand the word "accurate", here are some definitions from the American
Heritage Dictionary.
ACCURATE : adjective.
Conforming exactly to fact; errorless.
Deviating only slightly or within acceptable limits from a standard.
Capable of providing a correct reading or measurement: an accurate scale.
Acting or performing with care and precision; meticulous: an accurate
proofreader.
Now you can start fighting over the definitions!!

Charlie is right, in that sometimes you have an extremely limited time to

prepare a large schedule. The reasons for time-limitations are irrelevant. The
real-life fact is that it often happens. However, the method by which the
critical-path is calculated will (should) still be the same, and will continue to
derive a precise value, but the "accuracy" of the schedule will be compromised.
Spending 5 months on compiling a schedule will also give you a precise value - but
it may not necessarily be significantly more accurate. As usual, a balance has to
be struck.
The planner’s job isn’t helped by the fact that the "result" can be manipulated
via interpretation of the initial input variables, thus giving the client the result
that he would like to see, as opposed to reality. We’ve all been there, and know
full-well that, if we told the client the real cost of the job, we wouldn’t get the
job. Moreover, we could all philosophise about the rights-and-wrongs of "data
manipulation" via interpretational liberty.
James.
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Chris
Charlie, like all good entertainers never lets the truth stand in the way of a
good story
See here
http://www.planningplanet.com/forum/forum_post.asp?fid=1&Cat=6&Top=32700
Still the advantage is that we are forced to look at history and find out the
facts
For this I thank you Charlie
However, I would temper all advice on this forum provided in this knee jerk
manner as suspect, probably ignoring the facts and based on what is thought to
be case. In conclusion it should be treated as worthless unless ratified, by
yourselves.
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RE: Critical Paths - Are they all theyre cracked up to be?
Hi Clive,
Strange that you should go back and look at one of Charlie’s earlier posts, I’ve
just done the same, post #47 where he was going on about the second world war
and using that to take another of his little digs at the English.
I did notice though that he rather got things wrong. The defences for
Singapore were commissioned under the 1935 defence estimates and were in
place by 1937. At the time they were a response to a percieved threat, but at
the time of the Japanese invasion it was known that these defences would not
be effective. I’ve no doubt Charlie would ask, "Well why didn’t they do
something about them then?" Possibly because at the time Britain was rather
busy in Europe, and the resources simply weren’t available.
Another interesting point is that Charlie points to MacArthur saying "For the
second option, MacArthur organized guerillas to continually harass and slow
down enemy advance." That is incorrect. Early in 1942 MacArthur asserted that
guerilla operations were impossible in the Phillipines. The Guerilla operation in
the Phillipines was initiated by a remarkable man, a Lt Colonel of engineers
called Wendell Fertig. He promoted himself to Brigadier General and organised
a resistance using Filipinos, escaped POWs and troops who had remained behind.
MacArthur at first tried to ignore Fertig and his efforts, but they were too
successful, but it wasn’t until 1943 that MacArthur actually started to supply
the guerillas with arms and equipment and to claim that the whole thing was his
idea.
I don’t propose to say too much more other than to suggest to Charlie that if he
is going to pontificate, he should at least get his facts right.
Chris Oggham
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Hi Clive
Sorry for another comment. I belive, it’s a waste of time to discuss with a
person who is sure that a science - mathematics - is no science, but only his
expert knowledge - you used a beautiful picture : "..presenters will have among
them a tin man, lion, scarecrow and a pair of very red magic shoes".
But you are right, juniors may be misleaded.
Joseph wrote "The schedule as per contract shall be submitted within 30 days
after signing of contract" and he tried to raise the impression that he created
such a schedule within 30 days. This could only be achieved with the support of

long haired ladies with a bowl of glass, dice, cards, watching birds or equivalent -
it cannot be true.
I know such conditions as well. They are ok, because during the phase when you
prepare your - serious - offer, you need a level-2 and for some areas level-3-
schedule. This is not only essential for price and contract-milestones, but to
check for feasibility as well. In general you have 3 to 5 months time to prepare
your offer where the schedule is an essential part. Joseph obviously didn’t know.
Planning/scheduling is a serious job and does use scientific methods, even if
much data is based on assumptions and/or personal estimations.
Kind regards to all
Dieter
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RE: Recommended Books for Planning - Oil & Gas / Ppln proj.
You can try

www.offshoreman.com
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RE:
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thanks shaerah,
do you know the names of such magazines?
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RE:
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i think you can free subscribe for oil and gas magazines. Go to online for
registerations
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Recommended
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all
does anybody know what book is recommended for oil & gas pipeline projects?
There are many planning books published, but I have never found one that is
specific for oil & gas projects.
Most of the books are written for building works
Help me pls
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Production Rate
Anybody can tell me

what is the overall manhrs/mt for Oil and Gas Platform. If possible manhrs/mt
for structural, piping, electrical and instrumentation, piping, HVAC and
architectural works.
and production rate for jackets, piles and conductors.
Thanks
-shaerah-
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RE: Jr. Planner Looking for Advice
Chris
Good and practical suggestion- appreciated

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I would be willing to provide you assistance in whatever capacity i could.
I have a vast experience in manufacturing, erection/installation of refineries
and power plants.
Kindly send me private message if your interested.
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Hi Ken,
Oliver has given you some good advice, the only other thing that I would suggest
is that you talk to people. You’ve said yourself that your knowledge base is
minimal, so talk to the people who know more than you do, site managers, project
managers, pipefitters, labourers, it doesn’t matter.
I’ve found that if you ask questions openly and honestly people will answer in the
same way and you will get the information you need. As you know there is a great
deal of information available on the web and, if you can’t find the answer
elsewhere, someone in Planning Planet will know.
Good Luck
Chris Oggham
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RE: Jr. Planner Looking for Advice
Ken,
Planning is part of the wider field of project management. I recommend that

you get a copy of ’A Guide to the Project Management Body of Knowledge’ (PMI
or APM)
It will help you with all terminology and explain the simple aspects of PM and
planning.
If your company reports using Earned Value Analysis (which I imagine they do
due to using P3e) I would look it up on the internet and in the PMI Body of
Knowledge.
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Hello all,
I’ve been recently hired as a Jr Planner (zero prior experience with a degree in
Mech Eng) at a construction company that strickty deals with the petrochemical
(refineries) industry. The I was under the tutalage of a senior planner but he is
no longer with the company. Thus, it just leaves me with no real planner to teach
me. Is there anything that you would recommend I can do to enhance my
knowlege in this field, ie books, training seminars or anything. I have taken
courses in P5 and use the softwear everyday. That is the easy part... as far as
the figureing out the actual way to plan things I am clueless... any help is much
appriciated!
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RE: Training in dubai
Try Cybertech Dubai www.cybertechuae.com
Paul E Harris
www.eh.com.au
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Can contact Mr. Subramanium. Very nice guy, Can call him on the following
numbers
Synergy Software Systems
Tel : +9714 3374282

Fax: +9714 3379885
Cheers,
Raviraj
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Hi, CMCS training costs about $4000. Anyone knows Primavera Systems
Certified training centers which cost less than CMCS?
Thanks.
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Yes there is!!
In India KLG Systel is there as PAR and located in most of the major cities.
Just search on GOOGLE and wil get teh address or THERE ARE LOT OF GUYS
FROM KLG SYSTEL REGISTERED ON PP.
Search in the member area and send a private message asking for same.
Cheers,
Ravi
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Hi Ravi,
Could u pls advice is there any similar institute in India.
Thanks
GG
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Hi,
Contact CMCS, they are P3 & P5 training providers
Their office is somewhere in Media City
043654850
http://www.cmcs.ae/en/
Cheers,
Raviraj
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Hello, where can I train p3 and p5 in Dubai? How much and how long? Thanks.

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RE: Contingency resource curves (P3e)
There are two types of contingencies for:
Known Unknowns - Risk events that u were aware of but cant be predicted.
(Mostly environmental risks)
UNKNOWN UNKNOWNS - Which we never thought of
CONTINGENCY RESERVE for the Known Unknows are in-built into the activties
or work packages, while MANAGEMENT RESERVES are planned for unknown
unknowns.
Management reserves cannot be used by the project Manager.
Cheers,
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Sorry,
I meant unregistered risk event!

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I agree, contingency is money you keep under the matress for when a registered
risk happens.
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(IMHO) You should never plan to spend contingency, and it should therefore
always be at the end of a plan.
Monies which are identified to specific Risks (as opposed to Contingency) should
be allocated to the time period during which the risk is likely to occur.
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Contingency resource curves (P3e)
Dear fellow planners,
I’m curious as to how to select the best resource profile

for a contingency level of effort within P3e.
There is a default profile called ’Contingency’.

However, some Project managers wish to forecast all their contingenct at the
very end i.e. (last 20% of the level of effort duration).
The obvious reason is that the PMs wish to use this conting. budget once all
other project budgets have dried up i.e. at the later stages of the project.
Any guidance on the best profile to select and why??
Cheers
Neil.
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P6 Tutorial
Hi to everyone;
I need a tutorial about Primavera 6.0? Does anyone can help me to find free.
Thank you very much for your kind helps.
Free.
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RE: PLANNING USING PRIMAVERA PROJECT PLANNER
Paul is a member of PP why dont you write to him directly

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hallo i m new planner & can i ask tht is there any place in Singapore tht i can
obtain the book PLANNING USING PRIMAVERA PROJECT PLANNER ver 3.1 by
PAUL E HARRIS?i dun mind to buy 2nd hand book too because i want to save
burget now thank!!
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RE: Jobs as Junior Planner
Can you specify your experience,duties and resposibilities as a guniop planner.

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Hi, thanks for the messages and sincerely sorry for the late reply. i have been
applying all around the world. infact i have been using PP job alert as a quide but
all to no avail. pls help if you can.
my warm regards
tolu
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We have to hear from him personally ,so let him reply please
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He wants to apply worldwide as it seems from his post.
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Hi!
Are you applying only in Nigeria, Africa or Worldwide ?
by :)
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Areo
Don’t need to be depressed at this stage. One day you will definitely click but
keep trying.

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Hi Ifeanyi,
Thanks for the recent post. i know something sweet has never come easy
especially in this part of the world. I do believe your are also from my area.
I sincerely hope you understand all. I have made series of application either as a
planner or as field Engineer. i have worked in planning related environment for a
peroid of 2Yrs and above. However, i am rest assured that one day it will click.
regards
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Hi Tolulope,
I have three questions for you:
How long have you been a planner?

Are you currently in a planning role?
How many applications have you submitted?
One thing you should bear in mind is that nothing good comes easy..but you keep
trying..and never give up..
Cheers..
Ifeanyi
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I have been applying for jobs as junior planner, or intermediate planner, but up
till now, i have not received any response. i have good knowledge of MSP and can
also schedule on P3.
however i have not been invited for any interview. is it because i am a nigerian
with no work permit or because i am a junior planner form nigeria.
pls advise as people with lesser experience than i do, do get jobs.
pls. sincerely advise me.
tolu
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RE: project server 07 training in midlands, uk
Dave,
I’m surprised that the company that sold you the system hadn’t also offered
training as part of the deal.
We’ve dealt with Technology Associates International. Stratford-on-Avon.

Phone 01789-292-150. Kelvin Kirby is one of the directors. A really nice guy to
deal with.
Give him a go.
HTH.
James.
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anybody have suggestions on training for project 07 in midlands uk,
we are proficcent in project but need assistance on the enterprise features,
the server is running in a test enviroment at the moment and rolls out soon
Dave
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RE: P 5.0
yes Ravi, and I would like to say that P3 is still the one I love!
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unfortunately it’s frustrating, not all PARs are Planners but just computer
jockeys! so don’t exect too much! You really need to learn by yourself! and that’s
a lot of time!
would you believe that there are PARs who don’t even know how the program
calculates?!!!
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No need to search the Internet. The PARs are listed here: www.primavera.com/
partners/par.asp
As you’ll see, the only authorised rep in Egypt is Promastar, as previously listed
in this thread. Although there is nothing to stop you travelling to another
country to get authorised training if you prefer, or at Primavera’s own facilities.
In respect of Anoon’s question, bear in mind two things when thinking of waiting
for P6 training. First, if you are only looking at Course 102 (the basic course for
the Windows client), then there are not a huge number of differences between
P5 and P6. (Most of the changes are reflected in the web interface.) And
second, new training material usually lags the release of a new version by a few
weeks. For example, Primavera’s first class in the U.S. using the updated
material is scheduled for 27-29 August. Training run by a PAR will likely be
similar. (P6 started shipping for new orders yesterday. Upgrades are currently
scheduled to start shipping late next month.)
You can also purchase web-based training for the Course 102 equivalent. But a
classroom-based course led by an authorised trainer would usually be of far
more value.
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RE: P 5.0
Hi Samar,
In Middle East, searched the internet for you and came up with the following
PAR’s:
1. www.cmcs.ae
2. orbit middle east (jeddah based)
Hope this will help you.
Cheers,
Burley
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Hi Ismail,
Search for KLG SYSTEL Ltd.
www.klgsystel.com
They are the authorised primavera trainers around India. They are having
branch in Hydr too.
Cheers,
Raviraj A Bhedase
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i’ll be taking a three (3) day course (8 hours per day) on P5 from an authorized
primavera representative to start on wednesday (18-Jul-07), and i’ve learned
that P6 is about to come out!
can anyone advise on how effective those so-called PARs and should I push thru
with the training on P5 or shall I wait for P6 to come out?
what are the advantages of having a training certificate from Primavera

Authorized Representatives? can it guarantee for a good pay?
TIA
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can i get P.5 Training center in hyderabad, india
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The contact is Mostafa EL-Bakry ( mbakry@promastar.com ).
Regards.
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Contact Promastar, the Primavera Authorised Representative in Cairo. Phone
2440990 or e-mail mbakry@promastar.com.
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5.0
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Dear All
Please I need some centers that I can study P v 5.0 ( Primavera v5.0 as a
software in Egypt , Cairo
Thanks
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RE: Recommended Book for planning
Zameer
Try
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Civil-and-Environmental-Engineering/index.htm
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Hi PMKB
Could you pl explain little that where and how I can get some
projectmanagement literature free. I visited the site you mentioned but I could
not figure out where should I click to get it.
Thanks
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all
does anybody know what book is recommended for oil & gas pipeline projects?
There are many planning books published, but I have never found one that is
specific for oil & gas projects.
Most of the books are written for building works
Help me pls
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Obre,
The book you made mentioned is somewhat familiar to me, It seems i knew this
book, since i was working in DPH public works when i newly earned my degree in
engineering,
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{quote}Wow MIT is giving away for free all their courses, you don?t even need
to sign up, i can?t believe my eyes, right now i am downloading Project
Management, Spring 2004 by Dr. Nathaniel Osgood.
It is free so go and pick up what you want
http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/index.htm{/quote}
Thanks mimoune. I was not aware of this one before.
Stacy
Project Management Knowledge Base
Project Planning Info
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Hi All,
Will help and try to find that book for everybody.
There’s a book printed also by RS Means way back in 90’s (Planning & Scheduling
Manual) I would suggest to be a useful reference in PERT/CPM.
Cheers,
Burley
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Good books available
http://www.ce.cmu.edu/pmbook/
Check this
Cheers,
Raviraj A Bhedase
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Charlie
I think Tricky Dicky was the last person to inherit the problem
One many would say was created by Roosvelt
You are correct in your assumption that the West was concerned about
Communist Insurgencies that is why Korea, Malaysia, Vietnam and to a certain
extent Thailand were assisted either milatarily or with economic measures.
As for Pinochet, there were a number of factors here not least the control of
minerals, generally the USA concern is not ideological but strategic based on
control of what they need.
If you dont believe me, why was Saddam Hussein first supported and then
removed.
You may also look toward China and their support of the communists pre 1949
It is I believe called stategic planning.
As to whether Ferdinand printed your CPM book because America told him so I
am not sure however it seems unlikely judging by the quality of a great number
of these projects. I can only assume that the man who loaned the money was
more concerned on the pay back than the means of completion. (be that stategic
or financial)
Still would be interesting to see how in 30 years planning has changed so a
scanned copy of the book would be good to see
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Hi Nieman and David,
I will give you a brief history.
During the early and middle 70’s, US of A is losing the war in Vietnam. The
President of USA (Richard Nixon) feared domino effect, meaning losing all Asia
to the commies as in Communist.
So to mitigate falling all Asia to Communist, the US of A propped Dictatorship

sympathic or under the control of Uncle SAM. This happened also in South
American Countries like Pinochet of Chile, etc.
For the dictotorship to gain the support of his countryman, he needs livelihood
projects so that the people will not go hungry. The dictator do not have money
so Uncle Sam loan him money and embarked on a massive construction activities
related to infrastructures
That is the brief history related to the book.
So so to efficiently manage the loan a project management system must be in

place.

My post number 14, "The title of the book: PERT / CPM Construction
Management in government project"
Another post "The Philippine Government printed a lot of this book and
distributed it to all government engineers including my dad."
In conclusion, I did inform the title of the book.
Also, the book is printed by the Philippine Goverment, so you may not find it in
Amazon.com or other website selling books.
Lately, I really dont know if this book is still in circulation in Philippine

Government Agencies.
I only told Ulyses to find the book hoping that maybe, he got some friends,
relatives whose Dad work in DPWH, DOT DepEd, these are the agencies
implementing infra works, so that he can inquire and borrow the book if available.
The good news is that the essential of planning is found in all planning books.
However, some book from other countries do not want to acknowledge the origin
of PERT/CPM. How PERT/CPM become a success stories. So the reader of this
book do not believe that PERT/CPM is the best ever.
BUT it is different with the book im saying here because it did claim to have
success stories of projects using PERT/CPM.
Cheers,
Charlie
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Come on Charlie
Float above all the implied insults and frustration - if you know of a book which
has been instrumental in teaching you how to plan, you should let Planning Planet
know, so we can all find this bible. That is after all why we log in every day, to
help each other.
The value will be enormous on Amazon, because you have whetted so many
appetites for it!
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RE: The next generation of Planners
I think my response appreciates that there are other planning disciplines out
there, my brother works in aeronautical engineering, and my best friend is a
senior planner in one of the big 3 automotive companies.
In these, for the sake of argument, mechanical engineering teams the planner is
very closely tied in to the cost engineering front.
In civils, building and to a large extent oil and gas, the planner is an adviser to
the management team and has been divorced from the cost because of the
manner in which the project is procured and the risk bought. There is now a
very strong trend towards planners producing EVA and similar management
tools, even if only on major projects at the moment. This is IMHO a GOOD
THING and should be encouraged.
In that case I can agree that Cost Engineering is closely allied to planning as a
discipline, but I also think that we are better gaining accreditation in our own
fields rather than one which is currently unrecognised in our industry.
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I would agree with your sentiemnts, although recognise that many Planners work
outside the construction industry. I work in aerospace and the need for Earned
Value is often a contract requirement from our Customers. The ACostE
competnency framework covers most aspects of Planning, both time and cost,
although it is weak on work definiton and risk.
I would echo your sentiment that as Planners we are better off in wider Project
Mgt professional bodies, as we need to also influence our colleagues who are not
Planners to ensure that the Projects we are involved with are delivered
successfully. It is for that requirement that I am heavily involved with the APM
and aim to influene the wider Project Mgt community and have the importance
of Planners recognised.
My current employer (who is international) has recognised and is using the
ACostE competency framework for the development of its Planners. I certainly
don’t know of any better framework.
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What benefit would planners gain from being allied to Cost Engineers? It
appears to me that most (not all by any means) planners contributing to Planning
Planet are involved in construction. Most construction management would run a
mile from Cost Engineers - they are the ones who won the B* tender in the first
place and made the mistakes that helped our wonderful organisation come first.
We need to be part of the team if we are to be useful in our role.
First I have heard of the UK organisation. Surely most of us would be better
off allied to CIOB, ICE or APM, let alone the PEO, which appears moribund at
the moment, although it seemed a good idea at the time.
Discuss
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In the UK the ACostE has been involved with NVQ’s in Project Controls at a
level 4 and level 5. The level 5 seems to have an equivalency to a degree level
and are based solely on evidence. I am led to believe that most UK based
employers would snap the hands of anybody with an NVQ level 4.
The American Cost Engineers (USA based) have I understand recriprical

arrangements with the UK based ACostE.
Hope this helps. Guy

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John,
There already is an international certification using those same initials, the

Planning & Scheduling Professional (PSP) certification as overseen by the AACEi.
You can read more about this popular program at http://www.aacei.org/
certification/CertBrochure.pdf. Good luck!
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I think the new generation could be for planners how has an international
certification from PMI, base on the worldwide knowledge accepted the new
certification is call “Project scheduling Professional”, as a member of the PMI I
am working actively in this matter. Besides I would like your opinion regarding
this coming certification to professionalize the scheduling discipline.
Regards,
John
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Clive,
It sounds like you’re describing life after New Labour.
Chris Oggham
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Hi Alex,
Please elucidate your idea of the new generation of Planners.
As per Clive: "The next generation of planners maybe there will be none."
As for me, each newborn are new generation of planners. These are cute little
babies, but, definitely they will become planners someday. They maybe not the
planners in the same levels as what we are talking here, but definitely, these
newborn babes will be the next generation of planners.
As parents and member of the PP community, the best we can do is to train our
children to be the best ever planners of thier life. No need to use Primavera
P3v3.1 or P5, Microsoft Project, etc., etc. What the new generation of planners
needs are practical planning approach in life that will help them in there day to
day activities to achieve goals.
Cheers,
Charlie
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And the oil ran out

the computers crashed
and time no longer became really important
the real issue was how to get the highest quality of life
The next generation of planners maybe there will be none.
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Gents
My perception is that the Project Engineers , Design Engineers , Site Manager

etc treat planners as an adminstrative role in these modern times, as the role
has deskilled itself over the past decade due to the introduction of the more
sophisticated planning tools available. You wil tend to find ex office managers ,
or admin managers and similar who are adept at manipulating software packages,
enrolling themsleves on P3 courses for example and re labling themselves as
planners. A good planner or planning engineer to me is what it says ...an engineer
who has developed a skill for planning through knowledge of the engineering
processes within his/her environment and secondly a very good grasp of planning
philosophy which comes with on the job experience and appropriate mentorship
coupled with the standard training courses available. Most good planning
engineers I know have had an engineering or science background and developed
their planning career over a period of time suitable to any good apprenticeship
or educational timescale. These planning engineers are worth there weight in
gold as they can plan the work with logical sequence from start to finish without
just enough interaction from the project engineers and not take up all the
engineering resource time to produce a plan therefore making them a valuable
and productivce resource to the project. Other planners I have come accross do
not hold these detailed engineering skills and hence only schedule produce based
on what the engineers dictate on a task by task basis almost like drip feeding
the data to the planner all the way through the plan build process. These are
only my opiions but I think valid.
Rgds
Alastair
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RE: Reading monthly Original budget hours
Hi Dieter,
Yes, the software is P3ec. I will check the documentation.

Thanks.
Regards,
Sanjay
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Hi Sanjay
response is a little difficult without knowing the software you use. You speak of
a database, so I assume P3e/p5:
One of the P3e-CDs is documentation. There you’ll find
Documentation\Technical Documentation\Schema Docs\PM50SchemaDiagram.
pdf
Now you can use SQL. Easier will be an access via the API.
Hope, this will help.
Regards
Dieter
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Hello,
Is it possible to read the monthly Original budget hours or spent hours or ETC
for each resource grouped by activity directly through database? If yes, then
which are the tables to use?
It will be of great help.
Thanks & regards,
Sanjay Nair
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RE: Training Course in England
And if you want top quality Primavera training in the north of England try www.
rpc.uk.com
Peter 0845 644 6613
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I am aware that Lancaster University have a range of post graduate Project
Mgt qualifications. I am not sure how they are delivered, but distance learning
is sure to be an option.
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Moutaz,
I know that the University of Central Lancashire do distance learning and part-
time Project Management courses and I’m pretty sure Manchester University
does to.
You will have to check out their websites for course details and entry
requirements.
Oliver
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Thanks Stephen and Oliver,
Oliver, could you tell me is there a good university for project management
degree which I can study as distance learning or part time as I can not study
for full time.
Best regards,
Moutaz
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Forgetrack are good.
I went to their course in their attic above a dentist!
Moutaz,
Apply at a university for project management degree. It is better to understand

PM methodologies before you start planning (if that is your aim). It will help you
provide more useful information to the project manager.
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Moutaz,
The best training for P3e in the UK is from a company called Forgetrack.
They run courses at various locations around UK.
http://www.forgetrack.co.uk
Best of luck
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in Zwara
regards
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Where in Tripoli, however I am looking for the course in England.
Thanks
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Moutaz,
If you’re that interested, you can find it in Tripoli.

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Training Course in England

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Dear all,
I am looking for good training center in England run courses in PM, Planning and
cost.
Thanks,
Moutaz
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RE: float
i thought i wrote this before but it didnt seem to register. my post disappeared :
(
with regard to the lost pound the real reason is as follows:
’it was a bank holiday weekend and everybody was drunk, including the bell boy
and concierge, so knowbody knows or cares where the extra pound has gone.’
cheers for clearing up the whole float thing up as well everyone. never really use
that format. was also being a complete muppet when it came to earliest and
latest start. its ok. the mist has cleared. i have seen the error of my ways and
the stupidity of my logic. one rule learned. look before you leap. or read over
before you post. :)
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The description is right Stephen, well done for cutting through the c**p and
explaining it simply.
Anoon, thats why you shouldn’t give the client any more than a level 1 programme
and updated it with a zigzig dropline! Clients can’t understand what we do, and
don’t want to. Their job is to make money for their company. The only reason
they ask for more detail is because they’ve been told they should, but they’ll
never understand it.
Stephen, each of the men pays £9, thats 3x9 = £27, less the £2 the bellboy
pockets is £25 to the hotel. The question is fallacial.
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Stephen,
You can get negative float in this case if there is a No Later Than constraint
after activity C. The early dates of C will not be affected as they come before
the constraint -- however, the late dates will be computed back from the
constraint, which says that no matter when the logic and durations indicate the
activity should start/finish, they are overridden by the calendar-based
constraint. Even though the logic indicates that activity c has an ES of day 15,
the constraint says it can start no later than day 6.
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yes & no, IMHO, it happens because of the events going out-of-sequence; and
the calculations are based on mathematical principles, which will give you either
positive or negative results, which is logical.
While in reality, (for example) how can you explain it to a client who doesn’t
even want to look at your plan?
Officially paid was only 25 (that is with receipt including VAT); and I have
returned 3 (one each) to them. Well ...I don’t know the rest....
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can someone please explain to me how a ’late start’ can be earlier than an ’early
start’? this makes no sense to me. in my eyes, as soon as the late start comes
back to the early start there is no float. as soon as it passes the early start it
becomes the early start?!? yes? no?
As for the extra pound, i think you both hit the nail on the head. although when
it was explained to me the phrase ’negitive equity can not be combined or
calculated with a positive credit.’ was used. this didnt actually help me in any
way with the explaination. I needed it in laymans terms which was as follows:
They are both right, however the two parties situations cannot be talked about
from a singular perspective. it is then the confusion arises.
was going to try and explain both situations and then totally confused myself
again. as i said, im a messenger, an actuary told it to me. everytime i think about
it, it pickles my head again. i keep sorta grasping it, then loosing it completly
again when i think, ’no, hang on, they all paid £9 and the bell boy kept £2’... then
im back to square 1. i understand it. i know its right. i just dont agree with it.
:o/
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no Professor, the money involved is only 28 (budget), 2 is contingency (i worked
as a bell boy before)
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RE: float
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Activity d has the most float = 8.
Activity c has the least float = -9.
Activity c is sometimes termed to be "supercritical".
More important, if all four are parallel, and are the only items that are parallel
with one another, then activity c has DRAG of 10 (provided it has a duration of
10 or more).
It is usually better practice to compute float as late finish minus early finish,
rather than late start minus early start (and, yes, you can get different answers
depending on which way you compute).
The three guests paid &27. The hotel received &25. The bell boy recieved &2.
&25 + &2 = $27 received, = what was paid out.
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i don’t know, but in reality, isn’t they paid 28 pounds?
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is it just me or is this complete nonsense? i may be showing inexperience here
but surely item activity c is wrong? how can a late start come before an early
start? would they not just turn round and become early start 6 and late start
15? this is nonsense...
heres a better one.
3 friends go into a hotel and book a room. the room cost £30 so they each pay
£10 and walk off to the lifts. the concierge then remembers that there is an
offer on and a room only costs £25 so he calls the bell boy and gives him £5 to
take up to the guests. on the way up to the room in the lift the bell boy cant
work out how to split the £5 between 3 and so puts £2 in his own pocket and
gives each of the 3 guests £1 back.
This means each guest paid £9..
3 x £9 = £27 plus the £2 the bell boy kept is £29

Where did the other pound go?

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Which activity has more float? in the following
Activity : late start Early Start

a:10=1
b:51=4
c : 6 15 = -9
d : 14 6 = 8
what the correct answer and why?

--
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RE: SAP - PS for planning major project
Gents
As I understand that SAP PS do not have the data date concept. In which case
that when you are not updating the entire schedule... As a result, you will have
driving activities will not calculated accordingly.
Am I correct??
In addition, I would like to know how many activity is in your individual project
Plan... 100s 500s 1000s or 10,000s
Thanks in advance
Alex
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It works best if it is integrated with some project management software like
MSP.
Major advantage of using SAP is that you can access all the information of any
department at any given moment of time if you are provided read access.
As a project manager, it is of great help.
Cheers,
Ravi
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I’m using SAP PS in planning for building projects. The system is only as good as
the data fed into the same. Results are good if the data provided is rich.
Methodology is aligned with CPM since all forms of Network logic can be used
with lags and leads as necessary. The short-coming is in Reports which also is
made up to a large extent by the BI (Business Intelligence) Module. The system
can be invaluable if all possible milestones are meticulously fed into the system
along with their planned finish dates. The tracking can then be done at ease
based on when Actual dates are encountered.
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SAP - PS for planning major project

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Dear PPs
Anyone uses SAP - Project System Module to plan projects before...

how do you find it
it the methodology use is align with CPM or PMBOK
What benefits you find
What short coming you faces
I am now working in a Energy Company who deceided to run all projects in SAP
PS. SAP(company) said its been very successful in lots of big multinational corp.
If thats the case I believe PPs here in planning plannet must have some
experience to share...
Alex
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RE: Level 2 Schedule
Hi Mary
My response below :
Level 2 : This normally is a Project Integrated Schedule - which includes all

work broken down into manageable packages, where responsibility, time, cost
and resources are embedded in the detail and interfaces between the work
packages and functions identified.(Typically 250-300 activities depending on
project size of course!)
Best Regards
Andy
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Mary,
checkout this file:

http://www.planningengineers.org/knowledge/techniques/peo_technique3.pdf
Regards,
Karim
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http://www.hud.gov/offices/cpo/evms/clause.pdf
Check the bottom of page 4.

Regards,
Andrew
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What would your definition of a level 2 schedule?
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RE: REFINERY PIPELINE PROJECTS
Suresh,
Your query bit confusing, is it a pipeline construction/repair job? Or is it

pipeline maintenance job.
Please clarify so that we can give you some answer.
Regards,
Ashraf
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Dear All,
I have recently deputed to the refinery pipeline project in UK and i havn’t any
experience in pipeline projects. Please guide me about the maintenance jobs
steps and where we have to concentrate more etc. I hve been in Refinery s/d
projects but not pipeline.
Thank you
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RE: SAP - Application in Civil Engineering
Give a search in google.ae :"SAP TRAINING PROVIDERS,DUBAI".

u can find lot of institutes.
cheers
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thanks siva , one more info do u have training institutes in dubai for SAP
regards
deb
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Pranab,
These are some of the modules of SAP which has a value in the field of
construction,
Especially MM [Material Management module] is being widely used in
construction as well as ERP[SEM]..
SAP Advanced Planner and Optimizer (APO)

SAP Human Resource Management Systems (HRMS)
SAP Materials Management (MM)
SAP Master Data Management (MDM)
SAP Knowledge Warehouse (KW)
SAP Service and Asset Management
SAP Strategic Enterprise Management (SEM)
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Does somebody have any idea about SAP application in civil engineering , or what
modules will help a civil engineer in progressing his career interests???
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Pipeline And Umbilical
Firstly I would like to introduce my self..Aizam one of new comer for Oil & Gas..
Is it anybody outside there could help me regarding to the above matters....
I’m involved with pipeline and umbilcal scope work....which previously I don’t have
these experiences.So I really need ur help...what kind of major and critical path
for umbilical and pipeline.
With ur guidance here, I believe my all future in all endeavor of me.U also can
liaise with me through gmail aizamcapri@gmail.com or maz.aizam@simedarby.
com...
Ur kind assistance to me soon is highly required and appreciated.
With Warmest Regards

izam
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Cranes-Derrick and Diesel Types
Hello,
Can anyone help me in knowing about Derrick cranes and how it will be helpful
towards the demobilisation stage to offload the internal climbing type luffing
cranes???
Addind to my first query , what is the significance and advantage of Diesel

cranes???
Kindly help me in knowing about these...
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RE: s-curve topic
Dear Alex
Sorry to say the problem not resolve as per your way. The right way to solve
this is which Mr.Jerry explained.
Sorry again how if you have project of 24 month duration and you need weekly
planned value for next 10 week for a forecast planning and the hiring of
manpower and equipment. You will click every work period and then write of your
writing pad or spread sheet then you prepared your plan. Oh oh oh lot of hard
work for a poor amateur planner.
Just click on tool >tabular report >Resource> loading

and then add the report or modify any one available. Select the resource (such
Manhour / quantity)
In the format tab you can organize the data in what shape you require.
In selection tab you can select the activities or group of activities of your
choice.
and at the last the heart of this report select period for the planned value you
need. At the end select the display for day / week/ month / quarter / year what
you need.
This the best way in my mind and I applied from last ten years and also seen by
my seniors. If someone has a more convenient and easy method, please post in
detail to exchange and enhance knowledge.
Regards
Tahir
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Jerry
You need to use Layout to view your S-Curve

Because Primavera Look is just a graphical display but layout is still using the
live data.
You can display S-Curve using layout as well as histogram
Need help I can send you some instruction of how to do it
Good luck
Alex
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Hi Alex,
I generated a curve on primavera look but no, no value appears when I point my
mouse to it. Probably, it is only for P3e not p3.
tools>graphic report>Resource and cost>
Regards,
Jerry
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Hi Gents
I had indicated several times in this forum already that you can display, print,
analysis S-Curve in P3 or P3e without any export. In addition, the three curves
can be display at the same graphical print. What are the three curves:
Planned Curve (base on Early dates or Late dates)
Actual Curve (base on actual expenditure or hrs)
and the most important
Earned Value Curve (Base on progress %)
These curve can be display in either Weighted Unit, Hrs or Expenditures
With the combination of Period Performance Function you can even save each
period performance stored in order to have a trend analysis.
If you want to know any particular date for their PV,EV,AV you can just use
your mouse and click on the date you can see all these value.
This is the basic of how to progress/report/analysis a schedule, and this is very

important skill for a scheduler.
Cheers
Alex
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RE: s-curve topic
The program is loaded with weight as resource? Do a resource loading.

Go to tools>tabular report>Resource>Loading.
This will give you the expected weightage per month.In excel, you formulate the
cummulative.Expected cummulated to date/cummulated at the end *100 give the
% planned. Generate cummulative for actual and do the same.
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Hello! Zuraini,
Thanks for the appreciation...sorry for some of the spelling it was done on a
hurry...he..he. but the contents is pure...just do some home work, and I have a
trust in you, sure You can make it.
Regards,
Jerry
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hi jerry..
Thanks for your feedback. Guess i still have lots to learn then. Your reply on the
subject surely give me lots of points to ponder. Thanks!!
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Hi
Can someone tell me , where i can get good reading on S curves on net. ? PLease
dont ask me, to take refernece from text books.
thanks,
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RE: s-curve topic
Hi! Zuraini,
Advance "Happy 2nd Anniversary". Currently I am here in Melaka Petronas

project, however maybe end of September 2006 I will be in UK or USA, which
offer come first.
With it regards your S-Curve problem in Manhours, I think the time that your
group prepared the planned schedule of course there is a spreed sheet. In
Primavera when you key in the budgeted manhour for every activity based in
work loads,P3 will automaticcaly calculate till the total manhours for the whole
project, this includes Package A, B & C then you will the have weightage in every
package with different total manhours.
To make it easy for you to monitor the daily progress and value, your group
should have the Manpower/ Manhour Histogram with spreed sheet, then you
have this S-Curves. In S-curve the formula is totally different from the
Histogram. For me it is obvious to say that the daily Planned Manhour Value is
totally not the same, simply because of the Manpower daily distribution and
work loads are not the same. Example yesterday the planned Value is 8.35% and
today become 12.72% this is because of the daily manpower allocation,
yesterday less manpower than today.
Check your Manhour Histogram to make it easy for you to monitor the value.
Guy’s correct me if i’m wrong.
Cheers!!
Jerry
012 8708923
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Dear,
it seems that your Snr planner is basing his calculation on costs not on
manhours. have you cheched that?
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PMP course & Exam - Malaysia
I need to know the best place prepare for PMP in malaysia- is the exam possible
to be taken there , what is the schedule
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RE: Want to become a planner
Alex,
I think I’ll BECOME THE FAN. Then, when people start chucking it, I’ll just blow
it straight back at them. My problem is that I’m actually far too soft for my
own good. I don’t like blaming people because is causes friction and resentment,
so I’ll have to think of ways of blaming them without blaming them...if you know
what I mean.
James.
PS. Are you saying that you don’t know what your deadlines are?
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James
Thats why you dont want to position yourself in front of the FAN.
^^
Well said about the REAL deadline, but our problem is not able to find out our
deadline. If we do, things will be so much different.
Cheers
Alex
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Hi Guys,
We’re back on this "wedding" topic again and "deadlines".
In its extreme, the only REAL deadline is one where, if you don’t hit it, you die!!!
All other consequences are just money and convenience that are proportional to
the duration of the delay.
I like to hit my deadlines and feel very proud to be able to achieve them. I take
it as a personal challenge to use all my skills, energy and motivation. However, if
a deadline is unrealistic, with no specific rewards to work like a bat-out-of-Hell,
then I’m not going to take too much notice. I will do my very best at all times
but I’ll try not to get too stressed about missing them. The whole idea, post

project completion, is to learn why things went the way they did and to correct
those errors on your next project. The problem is, however, that too few
companies take notice of any lessons learned. They make the same mistakes
over-and-over again. It is akin to them saying that we shall drive 100Km in one
hour, but we’ll use a car that can only do 50Km/hour. You can tub-thump, bible-
bash, scream-and-shout, motivate and whip as much as you want....but it ain’t
gonna be done. When the poo hits the fan, and everyone is beating each-other
senseless, I wonder whether it is all just a game. Please enlighten me!!
James.
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Agree, thats the name of the game "RISKS".
Cheers,
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Jerry
Everything in life is possible, but what I mean is wedding deadline is a lot firmer
than a project deadline and that why the stress in the Time factor is a lot more
important than cost and quality.
Thats why a lot of planning course use wedding as an good example for planner
to learn.
What you said in the end is what I call RISK where any project have.
Alex
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Hello Alex,
I guess you’re right in some part, but believe me everything that involved
planning and schedule there is always a potential of being delayed including the
Wedding Planning.
Correct me if i’m wrong...Constraints are always around the corner...Wedding...

Traffic ;>
See yah..

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Hi Gents,
It more than just technical...

I think it a lot more planning involved in wedding planner than a project planner.
Why...
A wedding have a dead line that cannot move... Agreed gentlement??
Most of the time a project can have a EOT due to various reason. disruption,
weather.... but wedding ... you dont have that.
Trust me planning a airport project is a lot earier than planning my wedding...
My points is everything is a project. To effectively plan a project require a list

of skill. Different project require different set of skills some overlap some
dont. If you able to plan a wedding, then you have part of the skill set to plan a
major project, however, you need to learn and experiences the rest of that skill
to become a successful "Infrastructure Project Planner".
Same apply if you can plan a major project you may still find planning a wedding
is very hard and stressful because part of the skill set you dont have to plan a
wedding.
Good luck in search of that missing skills
^^
Alex
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Hi Will,
It wasn’t my intention to imply that the planner should take on the role of
project manager although, as you say, it can be a fine line. The only point I was
making is that planning is a mindset, and the only difference between planning a
wedding and a major project is scale and technical content. Sorry if I didn’t
make myself clear.
Chris Oggham
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Hello..Will,
I drink to that..
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Chris, it sounds as though you’re expecting the planner to take on the role of
the project manager? I would have thought the project planner should know
when and where all the work and resources are required to be done and done too
and relay that information to the PM to a certain extent anyway, it’s a fine line
isn’t it?
WIll
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RE: PMP Certificate
Kareem
you can got your 35hr course online from www.pmcampus.com
then fill the online application on www.pmi.org, and pmi will send you Eligibility
letter which allow you to allocate your exam on any site near of you " there is
one in Dubai, knowledge village"
Regards,
Hady Shendy, PMP
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I have other opinnion ... there is a lot of e-learnning or home curses (like PM-
Prepare) that can allow anyone to pass in the exam ... i know many.
Like i said ... just study hard (PMBOK, books, online simulates etc.).
Many curses on PM area are approved by PMI ... and these curses do not have to
be a PMP prepare.
Regards.
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Self study will not allow you to inter the final exam and you have to get
recommendation from any institute approved by PMI.
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Hello,
I think i can stusy by yourself. U just have to sudy hard and a total dedication.
To stimulate, just remember that a PMP certification will be very important for
your career.
Regards.
Marcio Eduardo
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Hi Karim,
I think Ashraf is right. However, PMI do offer a web based study course; it’s a
series of modules you can complete in your own time under the title of An
Applied Framework for Project Management. You could take a look at that and
see if it’s any use, and maybe contact PMI to find out how it ties in with the
PMP Certificate.
Regards
Chris Oggham
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Up to my knpwledge, you have to attend PMP course in one of the approved
institutes by PMI in order to gain 30 points and get your training code NO.
which can qualify you to appy for the final exam.
GOOD LUCK
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Hi,
does anybody knows if the PMP certificate can be studied online?, i mean
without attending any courses, just to study by yourself and then apply for the
test online.
i am currently in UAE.
Thanx.
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RE: delay analysis
I use an Excel file to do this analysis. It works like a Risk Analysis an the
informations comes from the time schedulle.
Regards.
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Konesh
Apart from stated herein, below given is the link which may helpful in your
future reference:
http://www.scl.org.uk/publications.php
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Andrew,
Thanks for your reply. your suggestion is aligning with my thoughts however the
problem is visiting sites and update the programme.I guess we need to allocate
more planning time in the prelims at tender stage.
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KONESH,
Time Impact Analysis during the project is always recommended.
As I’m assuming they’re probably quite simple programmes and of short

duration, it wouldn’t take a huge amount of effort to update you programme on
say a fortnightly basis.
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RE: delay analysis
AACEI have a number of good papers, but you have to be a member to down load
them.
http://www.aacei.org
Paul E Harris
www.eh.com.au
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I use power project for planning. For reporting purposes we simply use dropline
and count delayed critical activity from drop line date to evaluate project
delays. Thats mean that we dont revise the programmes as our projects are
generlly small (30 - 60 wks) and we usually finish them on time and our prelims
doesn’t allow enough time to spend on each project etc. However there were
number of occasion where we had to do as built analysis and our present method
doesn’t help us to do this? What is the best way to analyse delays any
suggestions?
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RE: Training Ideas - Help wanted
Oscar,
you obviously have decided what the objectives are.
I was hoping to promote a discussion between the do nothing and go home route,
go to another pub next time option, the safe easy route, the more risky do a
real project (ie build something) route and the crash and burn approach. Your
personality obviously suits the last option.
Now did we discuss the project objective?

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with that amount of time to go b*****cks to the programme im going swimming
Oscar
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I always like the scenario
You’re stood on the canal tow path and the Pub is on the otherside. Nearest
bridge is 5 miles away and it is 2 hours to closing. No boats are passing and the
ferry has sunk (you can tell this is real!). You happen to have these items
nearby............
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James
Thanks for that. I am trying to do somehting similar and will use your getting-up-
in-the-morning as well.
As you can appreciate, when the students are not technically qualified, asking
them to construct a nuclear power station/tunnel/hotel is beyond them. But as
you say the everyday actvity - especially "opening your eyes" is ideal.
It’s not that I get bored, but that they do tend to mention things to each other
and a new situation would be useful.
Thanks again and I’ll let everyone know what happens.

Cheers
Nige
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In summary: compile the same cup-of-tea programme into 4/5/6 different
programmes. Each one going into further levels of detail.
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Nigel,
I think you’ve got yourself into a bit of a situation here. ϑ In trying to find the
ideal programme, you’ll probably go round in circles. I appreciate that you’re
probably bored with the “making-a-cup-of-tea” programme, as would anyone
teaching the same thing for long periods. However, I think that you need to
take a step-back and objectively determine what it is that you are trying to
teach your pupils. Bear in mind that each new intake of pupils may not have had
any experience of programming. To them, therefore, the “making-a-cup-of-tea”
programme will be ideal.
What you can teach them is obviously dependent on how much time can be
devoted to it, so I’d imagine that you can really only teach them the principles.
To stave-off complete death-by-boredom, from your point, you could try
introducing additional elements of the cup-of-tea programme. For instance, you
could have the person waking-up, having a shower, getting-dressed etc. This
imposes a whole new set of constraints and potential logic, yet still retains
simplicity and day-to-day association. As you teach these principles, you can
expand by going into deeper and deeper levels of detail with things like drying
your hair whilst waiting for the kettle to boil (parallel or serial, reduction of
critical-path) or asking how anyone can put the kettle-on without having walked
to the kitchen (interpretation of content within a task description).
Remember, Nigel, it doesn’t matter what it is that you’re planning…all that does
is just determine the nouns and verbs within the descriptions and the minimum
quantity of lines on the programmes. The principles, however, do not change.
Remember also, that you, as the teacher, will be considered as God. You must be
able to come-out with stuff that students would never even think about…and tell
them why. Therefore, the best way to do that is by retaining the most simple of
projects, yet astound your students with miniscule levels of detail, by saying
“has anyone actually opened their eyes before walking down-stairs?” They’ll be
utterly gob-smacked at your pedantry – but it conveys a principle truth.
I used to be an instructor in a sector which meant that students could live or

die, literally, in the space of about two seconds. Yet all I could teach them were
the principles, because the principles could apply to any given situation
regardless of the prevailing dynamics. If I wanted to really test them, I’d have
to ask if them if they were prepared to die….and it’s amazing how many of them
were! This, of course, prepares them for being a Planner – a messenger-of-doom
who is likely to get shot!
Cheers.
James.
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Nigel,
I guess it entirely depends on the level of detail you require/requested.
Maybe suggesting a dinner party could be an option.
For the girls night out, one would need to have an objective for the evening.
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Damien
I had a go at the wedding plan - got as far as 80 odd and gave up! TOO
complicated! Try it yourself and see wat you get!
Like the perceived logic! Did something similar with an all female session - going
out for the night. Came up with one critical path but not the real, women’s
version. Interesting insight into women’s minds though.
Will try a few examples and see where I get and then ask the students to
create something similar.
Who would be a trainer?!

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I would strongly suggest a wedding or sports/party event. It can appeal to both
sex’s and is relevant to day to day life.
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Nigel,
Try getting the training programme to contain "perceived logic" and "true logic".
It’s surprising how much of a debate can ensue! Moreover, one extremely
important aspect is getting the task descriptions correct (clear and
unambiguous). This’ll get them realising that good use of language is essential.
Moreover, it’ll force them into understanding that, if they are going to sub-
divide one set of tasks, they have to do it for the whole lot, otherwise they’ll
not be able to make the correct logic-links etc. etc.
I did a training programme for the installation of a kitchen....and boy did it turn-
out to be a pain in the bum.
James.
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How Is A Construction Master Plan Should Be? ( 6 posts )
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Member No. 15267
Tu Huynh Van
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Hi,
Member since Aug 2006
- There is no Guide Book & Standard for Master Plan,
Vietnam (AS.VN) - Make the Draft Overview show at high level of all buildings in your project, identifying
11 Posts principal activities, logic, durations and milestones. Client comment/freeze this draft. Also
know as Master plan.
- If we need to show The Master Plan in The Overall Time Schedule, the first is the Handover
dates (Milestone), the sencond we put the Master Plan, and after is the Detail Schedule/Plan.
- For controlling & progressing activities in Master plan "chapter", we can set activity type (in
Master Plan) is LOE and set relationship SS & FF to the correct "Building" activities in Detail
Schedule "chapter".
- John Lawson, you are right.
Good luck,
Huynh Van Tu
11 Sep 2006, 11:33 #6

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thisHow is a Construction Master Plan should be?
Member No. 7934 Members
John Lawson profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Hi
Member since Oct 2004
Contruction Master Plans are produced/developed to comply with the contractual requirements
Northumberland (EU.UK. for the project.
NBL)
115 Posts The Master Plan should show at a high level of detail the overall timetable for the project,
identifying principal activities, logic, durations and milestones.
Normally the Master Schedule wil be produced on a single sheet of paper, which is updated/
progressed on a regular bases, i.e. weekly / monthly. It will form the bases of all reporting to
the client, i.e S’curves are developed from the plan etc..

Most of the detail will be found by reading the contract, drawings, specifications etc i.e key
dates for starting and completing items of work, the work scope of what is to be produced
(best to stick to the descripions/names as used in the contract). In general the plan should
demonstrate that the work within the contract can be completed in the contract period.
The detail schedule/plan will "sit" below the Master Plan, and provide the detail for the
progress up date of the master schedule.
The normal method of developement would be produce and agree the Master Plan and then
develope the Detail plans to fit within the planned logic, dates & durations.
As for guide books all projects are differant (well most), so books will not really help, however
the Planning Engineering Organisation (PEO) has a list of publications that may help, http://www.
planningengineers.org/
regards
John
04 Sep 2006, 15:42 #5
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Hady Shendy, PMP profile
Design Related Planning For the construction Master plan Activity List are;
Member since Jun 2006 - Site grading
- Excavation
United Arab Emirates - PCC
(AS.AE) - Reinforecement works
25 Posts - Form works
- Concreting works(RCC- Foundation) (up to plinth level)
- Concreting works (RCC-Suoer str.)( Above plinth level)
- back filling
- Sand Filling (if Required)
- RCC/ Brick Drain works
- Brick works
- Door/window works
- Plastering
- Painting
- Roof treament works
- Roofing works
04 Sep 2006, 08:59 #4
Examine
Zhang Haixiang profile
Building Works Hi,
Member since Apr 2005
there ’s no standard for master schedule.
China (AS.CN)
220 Posts In general, master schedule is a high level schedule to control the overall time of a project. we
can further breakdown the master schedule to creat detail schedule. sometime e.g. in bidding,
the detail information is not available, we also make such kind of high level schedule.
different project/client have different undterstanding of ’highlevel’/’master schedule’.
some client only need ’substruction construction’ in master scheule, while others may require
’pile cap rebar installation’
04 Sep 2006, 06:29 #3

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anon ymous
Recruitment Agency Moderator ? is this a topic for this forum - perhaps training?
Member since Sep 2006
Afghanistan (AS.AF)
5 Posts
03 Sep 2006, 17:52 #2
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Khuong Do profile
IT Engineering Projects I wonder anybody can send me some guide book to show the way create a construction master
Member since Sep 2006 plan.
What activity type, relationship we should use in master plan?
Vietnam (AS.VN) I don’t know how is it different from a detail plan.
36 Posts
01 Sep 2006, 11:02 #1
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Important ( 10 posts )
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Member No. 7934
John Lawson
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Hi Kym
I was once asked your question regarding no software available.
Northumberland (EU.UK.
NBL) My reply was to offer an inclusive rate for the job, i.e. my rate plus a rate for me supplying
115 Posts planning software - my offer was accepted and it was a nice little earner.
I must agree with the comment below regarding "Important".
The "Message Subject" description on this tread like a lot of others on this site is very poor.
If people have a valid point / question to raise a little more time spent on the "Message
Subject" would be well spent and hopefully get a better response.
Regards
John
04 Sep 2006, 12:20 #10
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anon ymous profile
Recruitment Agency agree with last post, planning and software are mutually exclusive - men plan, boys play with
Member since Sep 2006 software...
Afghanistan (AS.AF) By the way I do not think this tread is in any way important...
5 Posts
03 Sep 2006, 18:31 #9
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Send Private Message to RE: Important

Member No. 15606
Kym Lesinski
Railway Construction
Member since Aug 2006 I often ask the candidate how they would provide management support if we didn’t have
planning software. The responses are always pretty interesting.
London (EU.UK.LON)
14 Posts
01 Sep 2006, 12:30 #8
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thisImportant
John Lawson profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Hi
A few things I remember being asked at various interview:
Northumberland (EU.UK.
NBL) Technical Points on Planning:
115 Posts - What is Total Float and how is it calculated.
- What is Free Float and how is it calculated.
- What is a Critical Path and how is it calculated
- Difference between Forward and Backward Pass
- What is PERT.
- How to produce S’Curves
- What is a Gannt chart.
- Points related to Planning Levels.
- What are WBS structures.
(Just standard planning information)
Technical Points on Systems:

- Names of systems.
- What version used.
- What level of compentancy.
- Odd ball questions related to the system
- How to set up a project, update progress etc.
Projects Worked on:

- Project names, dates, duration, scope etc.
- Size of project i.e manhours, cost value
- Duration of projects
- Role you carried out.
- Did you supervise or where you supervised
- Numbers of persons you supervised
- Names of people from the projects
Trade Tests:
- Only once had to draw a simple hand drawn network
Original Qualifications / Certificate:

- Produce original qualifications
- Produce testimonials etc
Most of the above they should have been able to judge my knowledge and experience from my
CV, but I suppose they need to go through the "motions".
One thing I always take of copies of my work from previous / recent jobs, that usually goes
down well, I suppose it helps to brighten their day up a bit!
I always consider the interview a two way thing, i.e. they get to know you and you get to know
them - perhaps at the end of the interview you may not fancy working for this client, never

mind if they would like to employ you!
Regards
John
01 Sep 2006, 11:40 #7

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thisImportant
Tom Farmer profile
Building Works Lots of ideas, so here is another. Before the interview, see if the CV reflects the skills and
Member since Jan 2005 experience you’re looking for. If not, send a thank you letter and tell the applicant what he/she
can do to become qualified for the position. If the CV appears to satisfy your needs, plan and
Virginia (NA.US.VA) schedule the interview. The interview should confirm alignment to your needs and the level of
17 Posts supervision you expect. For example, for a junior level position, a skills test of software,
scheduling mechanics, and application of WBS may be most important. For a senior position,
communication, problem solving, and creativity are likely critical. For this ask about what he/
she considers to be their proudest moment in saving the day and what was your worst failure.
Needless to say, you want a planner who is truthful even when ship is sinking!
31 Aug 2006, 22:39 #6
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thisImportant
Oscar Wilde profile
Forensic Claims Analysis Not sure I really agree with that the interview seems more like an exam. When I recruit I am
Member since Oct 2005 more interested in the way the person thinks, I dont really care if he can find what I consider
are mistakes in the programme. I want to know how he would put one together.
Belarus (EU.BY) Programmes are the end product of an analytical thought process my interest is the thought
228 Posts process.
Oscar
31 Aug 2006, 17:53 #5
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thisImportant
ashraf alawady profile
Roads & Infrastructure questions generally asked in interview regarding PLANNING ENGINEER...can not give proper
Member since Aug 2006 judgement of the perfornance
and cleverness of the planning engineer.
Egypt (AF.EG) In my opinion, the best practical way is to give him a programme and ask him to review that
279 Posts proramme and to write his comments then you can discuss with him all comments raised as well
as not raised by him.
31 Aug 2006, 09:47 #4
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thisImportant
Oscar Wilde profile
Forensic Claims Analysis I always ask how do you create a programme
Member since Oct 2005 Many will go on about looking at milestones and key dates and production rates and all sorts of
bull
Belarus (EU.BY) My ideal answer would be look at the drawings and spec, develop your programme (requires mor
228 Posts explanation here) then see how close you were to the contract period.
Thats a pretty good start to see if the guy knows anything about planning
Oscar
08 Jul 2006, 14:03 #3
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Members
RE: Important
profile
Member No. 14054
Nigel Winkley
Railway Construction Ritesh
Member since May 2006
Obviously experience, type of projects, etc., what software used - for comparison with your
London (EU.UK.LON) company’s.
122 Posts
You can also try a what would you do for..., how would you start planning...,and one that my last
company used "What is something that you are proud of doing" to try and find out something
about that they are like.
From their CV see what other jobs they have worked on and have a look in the press to see how
they went - may be nothing to do with them directly but may give you a hint.
Another goodie is why are you a planner? This might establish if he is a "failed engineer",
logically minded, was pushed into or just plain likes planning.
Usual stuff like why do you want to work for...
If you really need to see what they can do, ask them some sort of technical questions - have
you ever used a SF relationship, how do you structure your WBS, etc.
Good luck - interviewing is a real pain at times!
Nige
07 Jun 2006, 16:13 #2
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Ritesh Kumar profile
Power Generation & Nuclear Can any body suggest me what kind of question generally asking in interview regarding
Member since Apr 2006 PLANNING ENGINEER...
Please suggest me
India (AS.IN)
47 Posts
07 Jun 2006, 15:47 #1
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Cybertech Training Center , Good Or Not ? ( 5 posts )
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Member No. 15263
Dana Qandah
Forensic Claims Analysis Me too ;)
Jordan (AS.JO)
42 Posts
30 Aug 2006, 22:16 #5
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thisCybertech training center , good or not ?
Omar Keilani profile
Building Services / E&M My experience with Al Manahel Center was not good ...
Jordan (AS.JO)
9 Posts
28 Aug 2006, 13:40 #4
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Dana Qandah profile
Forensic Claims Analysis Omar,
As i know, u already took it in Manahel, so what for taking it again same place!!!!
Jordan (AS.JO)
42 Posts
27 Aug 2006, 18:06 #3
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Member No. 15232
Jawad Al-Nimri
Water-Related Works Dear Omar,
it is nice to meet you here, take it at Al-Manahel and study the manual it is they key for
Jordan (AS.JO) understanding everything.
38 Posts
look to see you sooooooooooooooooooooooonj
24 Aug 2006, 11:03 #2
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Omar Keilani profile
Building Services / E&M Dear guys , i want to ask about the trainig cources in the Cybertech center in Dubai , the level
Member since May 2006 and quality of training there ...
esp. Expedition , thank you all
Jordan (AS.JO)
9 Posts
23 Aug 2006, 13:34 #1
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Studying ( 12 posts )
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Member No. 5368
Kieran Thomson
Building Works Leanne
Member since Jan 2004
sorry for taking so long to get back to you but I have been busy taking long deserved breaks
Gwynedd (EU.UK.GWN) and so on.
4 Posts Here’s a link for a college in London. It has various degrees but it’s fully done by distance
learning which is ideal if you still want to work a living and gain the priceless experience. On the
down side it is pretty expensive.
http://www.cem.ac.uk
Hope this is of some use to you.
Regards
Kieran
30 Aug 2006, 14:07 #12
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Jawad Al-Nimri profile
Water-Related Works SORRY,
AT (JAWAD.NIMRI@YAHOO.COM)
Jordan (AS.JO)
38 Posts
24 Aug 2006, 11:27 #11
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Member No. 15232
Jawad Al-Nimri
Water-Related Works Leanne,
you look like very ambitious, hope you good luck .
Jordan (AS.JO)
38 Posts in my part of the world, the experience is the main parameter in qualifying you for a job, yet I
love learning and read as much as possible, I can recommend some books that will provide you
with the main most important knowledge areas. I might consider a degree, please forward me
the recommendations you received I would be grateful.
Wish you the best of luck,
24 Aug 2006, 11:26 #10

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thisStudying
Philip Jonker profile
Railway Construction Hi Leanne,
Member since Nov 2004 Would suggest London guilds, as a good starting point, they are internationally recognised.
South Africa (AF.ZA)

944 Posts
11 Aug 2006, 20:08 #9
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thisStudying
Leanne Kelly profile
Roads & Infrastructure Hi Kieran
Thanks for your reply, I have done a search on the internet for Project & Construction
Western Australia (OC. Management studies but loads of choices etc. Are you able to recommend a couple of
AU.WA) institutions in UK which are worth looking into?
19 Posts
Cheers,
Leanne
11 Aug 2006, 02:08 #8
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thisStudying
Philip Jonker profile
Railway Construction Hi leanne,
Member since Nov 2004
Would like to give you my sixpence worth. Go for the civil engineering option in your studies,
South Africa (AF.ZA) keep your job as a planner, but get assigned to a site, where you can learn, then wangle your
944 Posts place in a design office to learn that aspect. You need to get all the practical experience while
you are studying, which might cut the studying process down. Things like surveying, designing
infrastrure, ie sewers, water, roads is fair;y simple, what you need is some good mentors. In
the meantime remeber your planning experience, and you will get better as you progress with
your experience, the thing is always to understand the practicalities, and be pragmatic, so
search for the right mentors.
Regards
Philip
10 Aug 2006, 20:40 #7
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Member No. 5368
Kieran Thomson
Building Works Leanne
If you have some knowledge of project management and are willing to learn, there are a number
Gwynedd (EU.UK.GWN) of distance learning degrees available in the universities over here, I am currently looking at
4 Posts one for Project & Construction Management. There should be something similair over there, if
not, many of the uni’s over here accomodate international students, not sure how you take
exams or how much it costs. If you need any more info I can put in touch with one of them.
Cheers
10 Aug 2006, 12:22 #6
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thisStudying
Roads & Infrastructure That is an option but probably one I wouldnt want to take at the moment mainly because I have
Member since Aug 2006 just been transferred from contract to permanent (Ive only been here a couple of months), Im
close to home and really need the job security.
Western Australia (OC.
AU.WA)
19 Posts
10 Aug 2006, 09:11 #5
Examine
thisStudying
Damian Smith profile
Roads & Infrastructure What about changing jobss, to a company that has the support structure in place with mentors
Member since Jun 2006 etc
London (EU.UK.LON)
48 Posts
10 Aug 2006, 09:07 #4
Examine
thisStudying
Roads & Infrastructure Thanks for your comments.
You know its funny you say that because my last 2 managers said exactly the same thing.
Western Australia (OC. Unfortunately without a degree its virtual impossible to get a job as a PM but I have found
AU.WA) companies to be much more willing to hire me as a jnr planner and let me work my way up plus I
19 Posts have found that I love planning and therefore just want to learn as much as possible and get as
much experience as possible, but without any mentors at work I feel that studying is probably
my only option (just a matter of chosing what).
10 Aug 2006, 09:06 #3

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Wbs Presentation ( 15 posts )
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Member No. 15323
vinod raturi
Heavy Engineering / Hi milind ,
Shipbuilding
Member since Aug 2006 i dont want to miss the bus . If you dont mind i too would like to go thru the presentation.
India (AS.IN) my e- mail id is vinodraturi123@gmail.com

37 Posts
thanks ,
regards.
27 Aug 2006, 11:11 #15
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Luigi Insogna profile
Power Generation & Nuclear Should be nice .
Member since Jun 2006 Email it on my address : insogna_luigi@hotmail.com .
Italy (EU.IT) Thank’s a lot

2 Posts Luigi
25 Aug 2006, 07:34 #14
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thisWBS Presentation
Roads & Infrastructure Hi
I would also really like the WBS presentation if its not too much trouble.
Western Australia (OC.
AU.WA) Many thanks
19 Posts
Leanne
PS Email address is: leanneaussiekelly@yahoo.com.au

25 Aug 2006, 06:57 #13
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RE: WBS Presentation
Quazi Asaduddin
profile
Heavy Civils Can you please send me this presentaion - WBS to Powerpoint
Saudi Arabia (AS.SA) asadafzaal@yahoo.com

4 Posts
24 Aug 2006, 06:38 #12
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Ritesh Kumar profile
Power Generation & Nuclear I will be grateful for this Presentation, so please send to me at this mail account.
Member since Apr 2006 riteskr@gmail.com
India (AS.IN)
47 Posts Regards
Ritesh Kr
24 Aug 2006, 05:41 #11

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Giji Thomas profile
Building Works
Can you please send me also this presentation - WBS to Powerpoint.
Svalbard and Jan Mayen
(EU.SJ) Please detail me the steps how you copied to PP slides?
8 Posts
giji@atco.com.sa
21 Aug 2006, 13:44 #10
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Khateeb Muhammad profile
Muhyiddeen Mr Milind,
Building Works Can u pls send me the powerpoint presentation on my email id:
khatheeb75@yahoo.co.in
United Arab Emirates
(AS.AE) Thanks
1 Posts
06 Aug 2006, 12:28 #9
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Wan Noorhayani profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas im really appreciate if u cud send the wbs to me as well
Member since May 2004 wan.noorhayani@akerkvaerner.com
Malaysia (AS.MY)
10 Posts
17 Jul 2006, 09:35 #8
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RE: WBS Presentation
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Member No. 6651
Wan Noorhayani
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas im really appreciate if u cud send the wbs to me as well
Malaysia (AS.MY)
10 Posts
17 Jul 2006, 09:35 #7
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Mazhar Hayat profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Can you please send me also this presentation.
Member since Jul 2006
e-mail:hayatm@equate.com
Kuwait (AS.KW)
1 Posts
11 Jul 2006, 06:36 #6
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S-curve And Weightings ( 2 posts )
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Member No. 15232
Jawad Al-Nimri
Water-Related Works Dear,
you must load resources & costs to your schedule, giving them the unite rates, then you will go
Jordan (AS.JO) to veiw / resource profile, choose all then display costs. it is that simple. i think you meant
38 Posts something else, right???
24 Aug 2006, 11:01 #2
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Joshua Juaneza profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas I am trying to refresh my memory about planning, since I underwent a surgery. I can’t
Member since Aug 2006 remember now how to create an S-curve using Primavera Project Planner ver. 3.1 or P3. Also, I
have trouble recalling how to use WEIGHTING in loading for resources. Could somebody help
Philippines (AS.PH) me recall everything?...PLS. I BADLY NEED TO RECALL..because I need to go back to my
1 Posts previous job as Planner. Thanks in advance
24 Aug 2006, 10:13 #1
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Recovery Schedules ( 2 posts )
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Member No. 12928
shamail shardan
Roads & Infrastructure Hi Forat,
First of all the recovery schedule is a revision of the Master Schedule updated on a certain
Jordan (AS.JO) data date, this revision is usuall called by the Engineer requested the Contractor to submit this
22 Posts recovery to show how is he going to recover the incurred delays up to date, so there are couple
of questions you have to answer your self before starting it:
1- If you are on the side of the Contractor, do you think you are entitled of any EoT or you do
admit that the delay is ALL caused by YOU as the Contractor, if the answer is "No" then go to
step 2, otherwise, DO NOT SUBMIT a recovery schedule, first of all you have to get your EoT
for the duration you think you’re entitled for, then you can submit a recovery schedule for the
remaining delay caused by you (the Contractor i mean).
2- If you have finalized your EoT claim with the Engineer, or incase you are not entitled of any,
then you can start analyzing your updated schedule, i would do it this way:
- Filter the longest current path (the path with the highest negative float), track the activities
causing the delay and list the reasons and the ways it can be solved (increasing manpower,
purchasing a new shutter system, airflight delivery,...etc).
- Discuss with your management the problem, and the options available to solve it, let the team
decide whats the best thing to do, and apply the change to the schedule.
- Update the schedule, and see if there is another critical path arising after you corrected the
first path, and repeat the steps above.
- If you reach at any point that the delay cannot be recovered, just report it to your
management, and again let the team take the decision ( Extra Cost or Liquidate Damages) its a
nice team work so do it properly and you will get the results.
My advise, dont make assumptions or commitments without consulting the project team, they
will all have an input and it will always be valuable.
Cheers
08 Aug 2006, 12:43 #2
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Member No. 15020
forat faris
Roads & Infrastructure PLS,WHAT ARE THE NORMAL STEPS OF MAKING RECOVERY SCHEDULE?
Svalbard and Jan Mayen

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Wbs Presentation ( 5 posts )
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Member No. 10660
Charleston-Joseph
Orbe Hi,
Building Works
Member since Jul 2005 The essential of WBS is very simple. WBS stand for WORK BREAKDOWN STRUCTURE. This is
to break down the Scope of work from the highest level of detail to the lowest of detail.
(AS.AE) If you are a planner with suficient years of contruction expereince it would be easy to visualize
870 Posts from the SOW which level constitute the higher level then the lowest level.
Cheers,
Charlie
03 Aug 2006, 10:39 #5

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Peter Holroyd profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas PMI have issued industry applicable WBS templates. Have a look at their web site
Member since Jun 2005
Lancashire (EU.UK.LAN)
87 Posts
02 Aug 2006, 10:33 #4
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Member No. 14155
James Griffiths
Power Generation & Nuclear Jerry,
In my environment, Nuclear Equipment Design, we tend to initially format the programme this
Somerset (EU.UK.SOM) way:
448 Posts
L1: Project title.
L2: Project Phase (Design, Manufacture, Installation, Commissioning).
L3: System Name (Work Package Name)eg. Crane, Shield Doors, Conveyors.
L4: Sub-system Name and their detailed activities.
Occasionally we go down to L8 or even 9, depending upon the complexity and how it needs to be
reported. This is what I like about using MSP and the "Group By " function. It is extremely easy
to format the program to whatever is desired.
As stated, there is no absolutely right way of formatting a programme. It will vary according to
the environment and to whom you are reporting. The important thing is that you can extract
the information.
As time goes-on, you’ll find the way that suits you.
James.
31 Jul 2006, 15:07 #3
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Nathaniel Cagara profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Jerry,
Your concept of WBS is correct though the level of details may vary on each project.
Thailand (AS.TH)
1 Posts In the oil, gas and power plant projects where i’ve been involved in the past 12 yrs the level 2
details normally shows each area, level 3 by system and level 4 by discipline or main equipment.
Find out which breakdown best suits your project and start from your ITB.
Nathaniel - Philippines
30 Jul 2006, 16:42 #2
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this Presentation
Jerry Alivio profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas In my own view the Work Breakdown Structure (WBS)consist of different levels; Level1, Level
Member since Aug 2005 2, Level 3 and Level 4. Now, first is to review the content of the Contract then, the ITB where
you can find the whole scope of works.
Malaysia (AS.MY)
53 Posts The Level 1 Title of the project, Level 2 individual desciplines, Level 3 Breakdown of activities
as per descipline and Level 4 Activities, pre-commissioning and the Mechanical completion.
Whether some of you have different views or ideas with it regards WBS please try to share
some to me, and I would be very grateful to have those samples.
Thank you all and best regards,
Jerry Alivio - Philippines

17 Jul 2006, 08:45 #1
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P3e Training Help ( 2 posts )
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Member No. 13120
stephen milburn
Power Generation & Nuclear Hi Donna,
Member since Feb 2006 I used this company at chrismas time and they were very friendly and experienced.They teach
you according to the primavera manuals but after that its up to you how you develop.Nice
Durham (EU.UK.DUR) environment to train in.
5 Posts
11 Jul 2006, 22:43 #2
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Donna Schofield profile
Airports & Aviation Projects Im doing a course with richard palmer consultancy in leeds has anyone used this company
Member since May 2006 before? any feedback would really be useful.
Lancashire (EU.UK.LAN) Thanks

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14 May 2006, 18:20 #1
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Psp Certification Program ( 12 posts )
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Member No. 14854
Joe Andres
Forensic Claims Analysis I am currently preparing to take this exam and have a few questions for anyone who has taken
Member since Jul 2006 it or is also preparing.
Maryland (NA.US.MD) 1. Are there any sample tests or questions available anywhere in order to get a sense of the
1 Posts type of questions on the test.
2. Which of the 4 recommended books is the best to use in preparing for the test?
3. Are there many questions on earned value, estimating and engineering economics?
4. Also any insight on how to prepare for the essay section would also be helpful.
Thanks
11 Jul 2006, 20:21 #12
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Ronald Winter profile
Roads & Infrastructure Mohammad,
You do not need to take any classes in order to qualify for the test. You do have to apply and
California (NA.US.CA) demonstrate professional experience in the field.
583 Posts
The test is now being given at the start of several conventions other than the AACEi, including
the Primavera User’s Conference and the PMI Collage of Scheduling Annual Conference. The
AACEi can directly administer the test at remote locations as well.
30 Sep 2005, 15:08 #11
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Member No. 10810
Mohammad Nassar
Building Works Hi Roland,
Member since Jul 2005 Is the training class mandatory to be eligible to set for the exam?!!
Thanx
Jordan (AS.JO)
3 Posts
19 Sep 2005, 15:14 #10
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Roads & Infrastructure Beverly,
The Planning & Scheduling Professional certification is indeed aimed at those doing Planning and
California (NA.US.CA) Scheduling as a profession, not at Project Managers. It requires much more professional
583 Posts experience and knowledge to even be allowed to test for the certification. So far, 100
professionals have passed the exam. Many people have also failed. This test is intended to fail
those who are not proficient enough to properly perform this task unassisted.
The PSP is not nearly as widely promoted as the PMP. The PSP Certification program is only one
year old. The first training class was a 2-day course held just prior to the AACEi Annual
Conference last month. The PSP exam is being given at the Primavera Conferences as well as at
this year’s PMI College of Scheduling Annual Conference this past spring.
You can look to http://www.aacei.org/certification/GuideToPSPCertification.pdf for more on

the PSP or http://www.aacei.org/certification/prepareforthepspexam.shtml on how to prepare
for the exam. Good luck!
27 Jul 2005, 16:01 #9
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Beverly McDonald profile
Petro-Chem / Oil & Gas Can you point me in the right direction for locating training classes for the PSP?
Member since Jul 2005 I am trying to determine if the PMP or the PSP is more planning and scheduling oriented. I’m
not interested in becoming a Project Manager, but I would certainly like the recognition that
Texas (NA.US.TX) some type of certification would afford.
2 Posts Any suggestions?
27 Jul 2005, 15:18 #8
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Roads & Infrastructure Will,
I asked several PSP-holders your question and received an encouraging response. (I used the
California (NA.US.CA) AACEi Planning & Scheduling Committee email broadcast system.)
583 Posts
The test will not ask for technical construction trade procedures, but legal terms such as
“Notice To Proceed” might be included. I think the real difference here is that like
construction scheduling, the certification is focused on logic-based CPM scheduling. Many IT-
type planning professionals focus more on resource-driven CPM scheduling. The two are entirely
different styles.
For example, you need to understand the interactions of applying constraints to progress
override CPM calculations with out-of-sequence progress. This is the stuff that 8+ years CPM
professionals in the construction industry have to deal with on a daily basis.

I hope that this clears up your questions. Good luck!

21 Apr 2005, 21:06 #7
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Roads & Infrastructure Ahmed,
I went to the on-line brochure at http://www.aacei.org/certification/GuideToPSPCertification.
California (NA.US.CA) pdf and got the following,
583 Posts
The PSP examination consists of four parts (1 hour 45 minutes each).
• Part I is Basic Knowledge. It consists of multiple-choice questions concerning the basics of

planning and scheduling.
• Part II is Planning and Scheduling Applications. It consists of multiple-choice questions

involving planning and scheduling scenarios.
• Part III is a Practical Exercise. This part entails answering a series of multiple-choice
questions concerning various aspects of a single problem.
• Part IV is a real-time Communications Exercise. It requires the candidate to draft the

equivalent of a one-page typewritten (maximum) memorandum to simulate reporting on planning
and scheduling analysis to the project manager, explaining the issues and proposing a solution
regarding a given problem.
21 Apr 2005, 17:28 #6

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Will Russell profile
IT Engineering Projects Ron,
Member since Apr 2003
How biased is this to the construction industry?
Wiltshire (EU.UK.WIL) I’ve never been in the construction industry, mainly defence, consulting (in telecomms and IT)
47 Posts and the scientific engineering arena, but have looked at this qualification with interest would I
be at a significant disadvantage?
Will
21 Apr 2005, 17:00 #5
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AHMED ADEL profile
Building Works Ronald,
Member since May 2003 Could you please brief us about the other three quarters ?

(AS.AE)
8 Posts
16 Apr 2005, 05:49 #4
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Member No. 2371
Ronald Winter
Roads & Infrastructure I have the PSP certification and believe that it is the most worth-while certification a Planner
Member since Jan 2003 or Scheduler can have. It is rooted in the construction industry and people without a
construction background will be at a disadvantage. Students and people new to the field of
California (NA.US.CA) scheduling will also find this exam beyond their capabilities.
583 Posts
One quarter of the exam (each quarter must be passed to pass the exam) is on communications.
You have to prepare a mock memo to your superior about a particular situation. PSP people need
to be able to communicate their understanding as well as just understand.
Several recent court cases were decided in the favor of the side with the PSP certification.
Each time, the Judge stated that the PSP certification made that witness more creditable than
the other side and that was the deciding factor. Good luck to you!
Ron Winter, PSP

15 Apr 2005, 16:27 #3
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Primevera Expedition Training Course ( 3 posts )
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Member No. 10660
Charleston-Joseph
Orbe Hello Omar,
Building Works
Member since Jul 2005 Try to inquire to this mail
United Arab Emirates jennifer@cmcs.ae

(AS.AE)
CMCS is ative in marketing primavera product in the Middle East.
870 Posts
cheers,
charlie
02 Jul 2006, 11:18 #3
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Vishwas B profile
Building Works Try -
Member since Apr 2004 1. Projacs (www.projacs.com)
2. Cybertech (www.cybertechuae.com)
(AS.AE) - in the UAE.
90 Posts
Happy Planning.
Vishwas
01 Jun 2006, 08:52 #2
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Member No. 14277
Omar Keilani
Building Services / E&M Dear All,
I’m looking for a good training center in the middle east ( Egypt , Lebanon , UAE , Syria , etc... )
Jordan (AS.JO) for Primevera Expedition 8.5 - 10 , Please advice me ..
9 Posts
Best Regards
27 May 2006, 13:47 #1
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Feasible Planning Is Weapon ( 1 posts )
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Member No. 13714
Ritesh Kumar
Power Generation & Nuclear Hello Friends
Member since Apr 2006 I am Ritesh Kumar working on primavera(e).I have five months experience in Primavera but
when I started reading forum then primavera is more clear. It’s really great to see people are
India (AS.IN) sharing there views, question across the world. I am really thankful to all active members those
47 Posts who are always keeps sharing there question so that everyone is getting benefit.
Regards
Ritesh
07 Jun 2006, 09:31 #1
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e-learning
Hello all,
Do u know if there are any e-course about Planning and Control and PMBOK
areas? Mainly PERT/CPM
Regards,
Marcio Eduardo.
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RE: Training / Seminars - Short time
In India you can contact NIIT Vivek Vihar Delhi-95 Centre Ph.011-22145726,
22145739 or mail to niitvv@yahoo.co.in & saini.niit@gmail.com
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Hi friends,
I am looking for some short term training / seminars / certified courses on the
following topics:
Maintenance Planning, Scheduling & Estimating

Maintenance Management
RCM / RBM & Benchmarking
Any recommendations ?
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Message
RE: Why 6?
It’s a weighted average. The 4 and 6 are related to each other in that you have
4 parts of one element and 1 part each of two other elements for 6 total parts.
The equation could just as easily have 6/8 instead of 4/6 if the probable
estimate was deemed to have a higher weight.
I do not know why 4/6 is generally used as opposed to 6/8, 10/12 or any other
weighting factor.
Stacy
Project Management Knowledge Base
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RE:
thisWhy 6?
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Charlie
Welcomne back
Bell shaped graph
Standard deviation
Not sure higher maths is required
Standard deviation is very simple ask any site engineer who has worked out the
results for concrete cube testing.
But why 6 I thought 32 was the answer
Clive
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RE:
thisWhy 6?
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Hello,
This is related to the theory of probability.
The graph generated is a bell shape.
The equation is similar to mean average.
I hope you understand and recall your mathematics or higher algebra,

differential calculus, intergral calculus, engineering mathtmatics or any subject
related to mathematics.
Cheers,
Charlie
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thisWhy 6?
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Where
a = pessimistic duration
4m = 4 * probable duration
b = optimistic duration
generally accepted "rule of thumb". You could equally propose your own method.
(((a+b)/2)+m)/2) for instance
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Why
this 6?
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Hi,
just started to learn about Project Managment and reading about PERT/CPM.
why do u divide by 6? and why do u multiply by 4?
Expected Time:
t = (a + 4m + b)/6
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RE: Plan levels
How can you link different levels of a progam, if it is not done at the same time?
Is it possible to insert levels without altering the weightings?
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Dear France,
your website is good for any planner.
Level of planning depend of organisation & project size.
for normal case planning level is following items.
1- Strategic Planning
2- Business Planning
3- Budgeting
4- Action
Best Regards
Mehdi
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RE:
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Vladimir,
I totally agree with what you say. I almost always link the different levels of my
programmes / schedules. I was however acknowledging that not everybody does
this.
Regards,
Gary
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the lower levels should support the higher levels
they are just a more detailed breakdown of the same element

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RE: Plan levels

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Gary,
if the schedules of different levels are not linked then implementing changes is
a difficult task and information consistency is not reliable.
Regards,
Vladimir
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Vladimir,
I think it could be either way. For a project there could be many levels of
programme that are all within one database, so all of the levels are
electronically linked, or the different levels for that project could indeed be
different databases.
Some people would prefer one way, whilst other people would prefer another. In
my experience, the top levels which are normally produced by a contractor are
all linked and in one database, but the lower levels are often produced by sub-
contractors and in most cases are in different databases (and even sometimes
in different software).
I don’t think there is a right or a wrong way.
Andy, glad you like the idea. Let us know what you think when you have read the
paper.
Gary
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I am afraid that there may be some misunderstanding.
Do you mean that the schedules of different levels are DIFFERENT, or that
different levels represent just level of details reported using one SINGLE
schedule?
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RE: Plan levels
Gary,
Can I just say that I am overjoyed that this topic is being discussed and even
more so that there is a concious effort to try to standardise. I have just left a
company in shear frustration as they just couldn’t/wouldn’t grasp the concept of
the levels (amongst a few other gripes).
One main frustration for me was countless times I would see low-level
Milestones/tasks included in what was labelled as level 1 when the only purpose
they served was people perceived them to be very important to the project. I
argued that they may well be important but they still belong at the lower level
where they fit in with the logic. They would often have no predecessors/
successors because there was nothing else of the lower level to link with so
would just ’hang’ there. My real argument was that these activities were not
included in lower-levels at all anyway where they should have actually been
managed.
Another difficulty I came across is that Level 1 was also used as the
’Integrated’ plan. Now because it was integrated the tendancy was to produce a
plan that identified all of the dependancies between the different organisations
involved. Therefore, I have actually seen the level 1 grow to more than 500
activities! Surely not right!
They suffered greatly from this problem in my opinion and it was a very large/
complex project too!
As part of a Post-Grad course I took with the Open University, there was a
superb diagram illustrating the hierarchy of schedules. This showed level 1 and
each level 1 activity had an associated level 2 network and then each level 2
activity had an associated level 3 network etc to level 4. Have you come across
this kind of arrangement when considering your standardisation document?
I have often thought that it may be a good discipline to call Level 1 the
’Integrated schedule’ and Level 2 the ’Integration schedule’. This in my opinion
would show activities in level 1 that are effectively a ’shared’ measure of
progress across stakeholders and even organisations. Then the Level 2 would
hold Key dependancies across stakeholders/organisations along with the Work
Package type activities. Just a thought really, what do you think?
I have yet to read the document but will do so with great interest and will also
try to comment.
Sorry to ramble.
Regards
Andy Cadman

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In an earlier post in this thread, I said I was working on a paper that
specifically discusses the subject of this thread – Plan Levels.
The paper is called “Standards for the Levels of a Programme or Schedule.”
A few years ago, planners and schedulers began to describe the various types of
programmes / schedules we were producing as being of different levels. Each
individual person or organisation would set up and use their own system for
describing these various levels of programme / schedule and this has lead to
confusion caused by inconsistency.
It is time that the system for describing this hierarchy is standardised in order
that some consistency is achieved, so that people can understand what is being
referred to by, say a level 2 programme.
The purpose of this paper is therefore to set out the standards of description
that all planners and schedulers can use, should they wish.
That paper is now complete and can be found here. Go to this page and scroll
down until you find the paper under the General Planning & Scheduling heading.
Alternatively, there is a link on the home page of the PEO website to the paper.
Regards,
Gary France
Chairman
Planning Engineers Organisation
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RE:
thisPlan levels
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Interesting question, I would begin by saying that there is no one correct
answer.
Project schedules are a report. When preparing reports you need to consider
who the target reader is going to be, and what do they need/want to see.
The only level of detail that is standard for all projects is level 1, where the
project delivery appears as one line. This is useful for showing preceding
activities such as feasibility studies and engineering investigations as well as
succeeding activities such as production ramp up and decommissioning of
facilities made redundant by the project deliverables.
Further breakdown of the project will be governed by the type of project, goals
of the project (stages), the size and complexity, cost, risk etc.

one point to remember tho is that when people refer to schedule levels they are
usually refering to level of detail not organisation levels.
Level 3 may have activity duration in weeks where as level 5 in hours, but again
this will be goverened by the project.
this
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RE: Learning P3 in London
Forgetrack is the best trainer in UK for P3

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I can recommend Milestone as we are based in London :)
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I have experienced the Forgetrack in Hertfordshire and would join in the
recomendation as an excelent training facilitator
Daya
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Thank You for the kind advices.
Katalin
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Can heartily recommend forgetrack, have recently completed a P3 to P3e
Conversion Course there, top notch. If you’d like info your best bet is to email
Susan Senior on susan@forgetrack.co.uk
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Try...
http://www.forgetrack.co.uk/
Their actually based in Hertford approx an hour by train from London. Their
also affiliated with Primavera.
Regards,
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RE: Learning P3 in London

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Hi Katalin,
I don’t know whether these people will be any use to you, but they do offer a
number of courses on P3 which might suit your needs. The prices are listed in
their training schedule, and the courses appear to have a good balance between
theory and practice.
Milestone Project Management Solutions
Chris Oggham
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Hi,
While he is in London, he can always log on to P.P.

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Hi,
My son will be in London for a few month. Can somebody give me some advice
which isntitute gives a solid P3 knowledge (and practice) for a resonable price.
Thanks
Katalin
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RE: Becoming a Planner?
Hi Clive,
You and Philip are absolutely spot-on. You can’t teach the mind-set, you either
have it or you don’t. If you have it, it can be developed into a truly remarkable
and versatile tool.
Chris Oggham
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Philip
Before you can have the mindset you must have a mind which is open to others
opinions.
Software is like a car. It is not essential to drive a car to reach your destination
just makes the journey easier.
I fully agree with your comments regarding some have it and some do not. To
use an Irish analogy
"you can take the mind out of a planner but you cant take the mind out of
planning" however good your software is.
Best regards
Clive
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Philip
I agree too
Most people find a blank sheet of paper a real problem a good planner sees it as
a challenge.
Its far easier to teach the software than it is to teach the mentality
Clive
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Philip,
You are spot on. I totally agree.
Cheers,
Gary
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RE:
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Hi Gary France,
My attitude is finding people with the right experience, who have planned, not
as dedicated planners, but with the right experience, and teach them the
software, in my opinion and a few other people involved in management the right
approach. Planning is a mindset, and either you can do it , or go back to running a
site. The point is certain people have the mindset and others don’t
Tegards
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At present it is a "Planners Market" so guys and gals make hay whilst the shine
suns or at least until the next global recession casts a few shadows.
Sun? Now whats that again?
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profile
Hi Gwen, Clive
I agree with that. With 10 years experience, degree is not that important
anymore because he has already taken his route and would have proven himself
in a certain field.
I just pity those who has to contend with some employers who insist on having a
certain amount of qualifications aside from his adequate experience.
Cheers,
Se
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Gwen Se
I think a degree goes out of the window if you have been a planner with a good
career progression for say 10 years your CV does the talking.
Clive
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Even if the position asks for a degree, there is nothing to stop you applying for
the position especially if you have an edge on say expereince, working with the
company or can bring some other skill the project.
I think most recruiters would agree that the degree goes out the window if you
have that particular skill set, attitude or expereince the project/recruiter/
client wants.
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Hi Gary,
What i mean was if you look at most ads you will see that they are looking for
experience and educational credentials.
I did not say they’re not looking for experience. I’m just reacting to the
argument of Oscar that employers does not benchmark education but
experience only. Do you believe what oscar said?
I stand by my observation that employers are asking for educational credentials

also. i don’t want to argue with you on the numbers because both of our views
remains as views, with no scientific proof.
Cheers,
Se
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RE: Construction Productivity Rates
Many thanks. I’ll go and puruse the book shop

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thisConstruction Productivity Rates
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Hi Richard,
Try to look for some John Page estimating manhours norms.
It will broaden your understanding regarding construction production rates.
Cheers,
Charlie
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We’ve got several construction estimating books in our review database, but so
far, no one has reviewed any of them. If you happen to try any of them, please
post a review!
Stacy
Participate at the Project Management Knowledge Base!
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I am looking to purchase a book or cd rom on construction productivity rates for
new-build houses and refurbishment of houses.
Can anyone suggest any good ones?
Many Thanks
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RE: How detailed should a programme be....?
Hi Philip,
Thanks for the best idea.
I recommend this reply to be the best idea of the week.
Regards,
Charlie
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Hi Guys,
Have been burning the midnight oil lately, hence my lack of participation in the
forums. The word mindset keeps on popping up as one of my favourites. What I
mean by this is that every person can plan, and they do so on a daily basis, and
even for long periods ahead, however this does not make them planners in the
sense we are talking about. The mindset I mean is translating these plans from
mental ideas on to paper in a format understandable to all. This ability is what
makes good planners. You must realise that not not everybody can understand a
barchart or s-curve etc, so it is up to the planner to find a way of presenting
the program in such a way that the person who need to use it understands it. If
the individual prefers a list of dates, give him such a list. Other issues involved
is pragmatism, understanding people, hands-on experience etc.
When I employ somebody as a planner, the first thing I tend to look at is
practical experience, then their planning skills, and then their literacy in the
particular software. It is easier to to teach a good potential planner the
software than to teach a good computor operator planning, however, this is not
a strict rule. Dependant on the size of the project, the rules change. If you
have a project where a single planner can do the job, or even two planners, I
would prefer the practical planner could be an engineer or experienced artisan/
foreman etc, however as the project size increases, and the complexity of
reporting becomes more difficult, the need arises for a balanced team, where
tecnical planning skills and computor skills becomes critical, as you do not want
your planners to become bogged down in trying to produce information that
somebody with the right computor skills can do in no time. This interaction has
major benefits for all, as everybody learns from each other,ie the computor
person picks up planning skills and technical experience, and the planners pick up
computor skills.
I believe that sharing knowledge is what makes us tick. On sites I will will
normally spend an hour or so with every superintendent/supervisor on a monday
morning, looking at their activities for the week, either individualy or in a group,

and they will break these activities down in furthe detail on a macro barchart,
and agree to what they will achieve, according to which they will be monitored,
this means they buy in to their own programmes and teaches them the
importance of planning. It also works on their pride, and they will always try to
beat their own programs. Hence, working on the mindset of the people who
effect the work, helps the schedule.
The burning of the midnight oil I referred to earlier is that I am currently

involved in a major turnkey project, which spans all kind of issues hence long
hours and little time to talk.
The subject of this thread, is something I am learning more about on a daily

basis, even though I have had extensive experience in the past. The practical
issue is planning something where the conceptual design is in place, but the
detail design is in progress, how much detail can you plan into the schedule. The
solution is to try and plan for the information that is available, probably
somewhere between level 2 and 3. The main thing is trying to get the next six
months right, in very good detail, and covering all the activities for this period
in as much detail as possible, this includes items, like land aquisition,
environmental issues, permits, procurement, tenders, utility diversions, method
studies, detail design etc, and planning the construction phase in as much detail
as the available information allows. The next phase of planning will be to plan the
next six month as detailed as possible and then the next six months.
The conundrum is that there is no yardstick for the detail in a program. I like
using examples, why break a few activities into thousands of activities when it is
one. You have ten thousand boiler pipes to be welded by one pool of welders, if
you split this into ten thousand activities, multiply this by because, you have
measure cut and prep, fit up & tack, weld, NDE, Clear Weld. This means 50 000
activities, whereas you only need five. It then becomes simple, if 5000 welds
are completed, the progress is 50%. Keep in mind that for every activity there
is atleast two logical links required, and at lest one resource. However there is
areas where more detail is required, especially in the instance of interfaces.
Regards
Philip
The answer is be practical, and don’t let factors such as duration and the rest
overide or cloud the issues.
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Hi Se,
You’re quite right! Thanks for cutting through the fog and bringing us back to
what we should be discussing.
Chris Oggham

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Hi guys,
I’ll try my best to bring back the discussion to the real issue at hand.
How detailed a programme should be?
IMHO, detailed or not detailed is secondary to me. Maybe tertiary. I believe a

programme should be "responsive" to the needs of all project stakeholders,
management people, PM, contracts people, construction managers, site
engineers, foreman, tradesmen, procurement people, qs, Human resource people
etc.
Responsive meaning, useful and believable from commencement of the project,

to tracking and up to close out of contract. If the programme is not reponsive,
then what clive said will be true that is, the plan will find itself hanging around
the wall of the planning engineer’s room and no one will read it.
Just my 50 cents.
Se
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Hi Clive,
Agree with you totally. I must admit I`ve wondered whether Charlie is really
like this, or whether he is working to some strange agenda of his own. I am
surprised that he can’t see that software is not the whole of planning or even a
major part of it. In fact it makes me wonder just how much planning he`s done,
but figjam, yes, definitely figjam.
Regards
Chris Oggham
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RE: How detailed should a programme be....?
Hi there Chris,
Planning mindset is with everyone since pre-historic times. The ability to

communicate the plan is as old as man’s history. All you have to do is read a lot
of books including novels (love story, harry potter, lord of the rings, etc.).
Reading these books make you aware that planning mindset is with everyone, the
hero, the vallians, the sidekick characters.
The wedding planner got a planning mindset, a family got a planning mindset
(husaband and wife planning how many baies to procreate and of course, they
have to communicate in achieving there goals). Also the normal household that is
the majority dont use Primavera, Microsoft Project Excel Chart to plan the day
to day activities to achieve there planning goals.
A lot of example can be generated that planning mindset is with everyone and
the ability to communicate is inherent in a person.
if you have a time to look at the about notes: PLANNING PLANET Networking
Planning, Programming & Control’s Professional Around the World, then you will
know that this professional got this planning mindset and the ability to
communicate the plans.
This are the real planners that PP trying to network around the world. But then
everyone is welcome including "planers with planing mindset".
Cheers
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Hello Clive,
Gong Chi Fat Chai.
The gragorian calendar start a new year, the chinese calendar start a new year
and a lot of calendar start a new year. New year usher new approach in life. But
before the start of New Year inclusive of all calendars will make some punching-
punching. This is good for PP.
OK let start the ball rolling:
First I was shock your deliverate exclusion of software. Planning without using
software is out of my league. I consider it primitive planning. And you are right,
labourer cum planer can always talk to labourer, tradesman about planning

because that is where the labourer come. Actually, nobody is hindering anyone
to talk to anybody. This is a free world. Labourere cum planer dont need
educational attainment, no need to know Primavera software, excel chart or
Microsoft Project.
If you will look at the top note it says "PLANNING PLANET, Networking
Planning , Programming & Control’s Professionals Around the World". Theses
people that PP trying hard to network use software to do planning and control.
But then our universe is free, Aliens are welcom. No fingerrpinting, No iris scan,
No profiling. The aliens can terorist PP with their brands of Planning technique.
Again these is a free world, Only the moderator can police PP.
Next is ..... There is really no point in furthering this conversation. We know

were we stand, PP knows.
Cheers and enjoy your holiday
Charlie
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Hey guys,
Am I lost somewhere? Am I disoriented?
Is this the "Becoming a planner" thread?
Tell me, please tell me that I’m not really lost.
Hello, anybody home?
Se
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Charlie
Are you suggesting you are the best planner in the world or you know the best
planner in the world???
On what basis are you determining the best planner
Qualifications?
Experience?
Wow factor?
Communications?
Best software jockey?
I find the concept intriguing
Maybe this is a new thread what makes the best planner actually I think there

already is one for this.
For me a conundrum exists and it relates to the use of production rates. I will
give you a scenario.
I have a floor to cast in concrete and I want to know how long it will take
Where do I start
For me probably by colouring up the falsework layouts.
Do I get the 700 props fixed at the same time.
This is unlikely I will start at one side with one prop and open up the installation
face. So one prop then the next, tie them together then the next two etc etc.
Next question can I get all the props on the floor when I start probably not so a
constraint exists potentially of material in this case prop delivery. As I
complete the propiing the work face gets smaller so the production rate
diminishes until I place the last prop.
At some point I will commence the formwork and we have the same scenario a
predecessor of props to get the first sheet of ply in place. From that the other
sheets follow. I must have space to place the ply supply on top of the falsework
which relates to the predeccessor activity. Next step rebar I need a full beam
complete to start the activity the predeccessor is the formwork. So again we
start with the first beam and work away from that. Finally concrete, I cannot
start at 5 if the plant closes at 7 so we have an external constraint. Maybe I
cant get a pump and the quantity is too much for the crane. Maybe I need two
or more pumps as the area is too large and if I cant supply I will get cold joints.
Maybe I dont have room for 3 pumps only one so more pour size is limited by
equipment. Maybe the spec says what the maximum pour size is. Maybe the plant
capacity cant meet my supply requirements.
So from this very simple task of casting a floor we see there are dependencies
some of which we can control some of which are beyond our control. We havent
even started to look at labour resources and before we do we have already had
to constrain our activity due to physical and material constraints. The above
scenario identifies the quickest time to cast the slab with unlimited labour
resources. Now if we go to the next step and put resources in the duration we
have gets fleshed out. However if a carpenter is laying a 4 by 8 sheet of
plywood on the deck his rate will be very fast, if he is forming up a beam the
rate will be lower as there is more work per ft2 to do. Understanding how he
will work will aid the process of determining the cycle. In my mind this is real
planning.
The mindset however is slightly different this is where a planner has an inbuilt
appreciation of the project factors. Labour plant and commercial realities
entwined in the process of where the activity starts and finishes what
predecessors it has and what successors it has. IE do you run from the high
point or the low point of a drainage run. Do you start in the middle or the end.
Manhole to manhole etc. If the subject was curtain wall do you set up the
monorail on each floor or every 5 or every 10 how do you load out the panels can
you get them all on site what from the gut is the driver and can you affect it.
These determinants dont come from books but experience and for every major

activity the production rates are not the start or the end of the programme.
managing these factors into a cohesive programme is the mindset as is reacting
to the problems and providing the solutions, the "what if scenarios". That to me
is the mindset.
Charlie you may notice that not once have I mentioned software and thats
intentional. It is but a small part in a planners skill base it is merely a tool to get
the physical number crunching done quicker.
So on that basis Charlie who is the best planner you know and do you agree with
my analogies??
I would really apprecite your thoughts, rather than a diatribe that does not
considfer the content of the thread. Further from the above a tradesman
approach to planning can be seen to have real value, and this is why some PPers
advocate the input into programmes from the workforce as what we do and how
we do it is driven by practicalities not techniques or software.
Kindest and warmest felicitations

Kung Hei Fat Choi
Clive
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What the difference between a planer mindset and a real planner (the activities
of planning, programming and control professional)
Do you know?
Have you been there?
What are the norms of activities that real planner are doing in there everyday
activities?
What are the planer mindset in there day to day activities

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RE: prince 2- the cheap way
John,
Get yourself down to "The Stationary Office" in kingsway, Holborn Tube, this is
the place that sells all government publications. They have all of the OGC
publications there and i am pretty sure they have exam prepartation as well.
PRINCE is useful as most companies have some sort of tailored prince

methodologies.
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Hi,
Why not go to www.apmgroup.co.uk - they provide the accreditation for Prince2
or http://www.ogc.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1000829 - the owners of Prince2
or http://www.usergroup.org.uk/ - this is the UK user group for best practice

(Prince2, M_o_R etc...)
Hope this helps

Andrew
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John,
The organisation I work for uses PRINCE2 and puts everyone through the
requisite courses to gain the necessary qualifications. Before you can take the
PRINCE2 Practitioner exam, you have to take, and pass, the PRINCE2
Foundation exam.
The firm we use is SCC, and while I don’t know whether they will let you just
take the exams, the link below will take you to their website so you can contact
them and find out.
SCC UK Home Page
One thing to remember, when you do become PRINCE2 Practitioner qualified,

you have to take a re-qualifying exam every three to five years to retain your
certification.

Hope this helps.
Chris Oggham
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Having gone into the website I was wondering if anybody has worked under this
system and what the feedback was?
Clive
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Perhaps these guys can help?
Crazy Colour PRINCE2 Resource
Stacy
Participate at the Project Management Knowledge Base!
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Prince 2
I feel it would be a nice to have on my CV and want to do the practisioners

exam. Are there any practice questions which you can buy anywhere before
taking the exam.
Trancender do them for IT exams and I was wondering if any companies do

them for Prince 2. I have the book but want to get used to taking the exam
withing the time limit and get a feel for the type of questions they fire at you.
It seems much of the courses on offer are expensive and a waste of time. From
past experiences a read of the book and run through questions usually works for
me so shelling out £500 is a waste.
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RE: Resources - P3 or Excel
Hi Oscar,
If your question is about graphs in excel, it is quite possible. Go to Chart

options> Datalabels > and check values. you will have the values also on the bar.
Regards,
manu.
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Is there any way when you have a long duration for your resources say 18
months to print the resources on the graph per day I know you can point and get
the number but any other way
Oscar
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Hi Allison,
correction from my previous post
"... I can imagine ..." should be "... I can’t imagine ..."
Im sorry for the inconvenience.
Cheers
Charlie
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Hi Allison,
Please take note the PPeers that response to your thread comes from an
environment outside IT.
Im not from IT and I can imagine the resources required in IT will be that big
as that in building works, heavy civils or petrochemical/oil & gas.
I would suggest generate your resources using excel. It is simple and it is not
complicated.
Regards,
Charlie
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Allison,
Try this...
In the Resource Loading Report, In Tab Timescale - choose unit as "DAY"
your output will be in days which is your requirement.
Additionally In Tab Format - choose export to csv format. The output file
created can be easily handled through Excel.
Hope this helps!!!
found any other way? pl. have your say.....
Good Luck,
Martin
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Allison,
Else, go to Resource Table. Use the Resource Profile/Table dialog box to

specify the requirement and filter the resources according to you preference.
Regards.

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Hi
U can use - "Tubular report > resource > loading" from there u can see
distribution resource by month day hrs etc and u can roll up as per WBS or
detail activities. Its will show as per schedule
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How have you loaded the resource quantity ? Hours or days ?
As far as I recall, P3 will generate a distribution based on this value.

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I have a question about resources and the reports P3 is able to generate.
Our requirement is to show resources required for each work package with
number of days per month. Is this achievable in P3
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RE: Suretrak Manuals in Arabic?
Not all Arabs know English well enough to learn a new software. Especially the
engineers I am working with in country in Iraq.
Thank you - my original question has been answered - there are no Sure Trak
manuals in Arabic yet. Please let this be the end of the discussion. Cheers and
Bye For Now.
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Osama, I totally agree with you.
This is better to follow English manuals instead of Arabic

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i think there is no arabic versions of it
don’t worry arabians also know the english language

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Check on EBAY there is a primavera manual in arabic, it might be some help
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Selina
Have you asked Primavera ???
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Currently not available.
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The schedules are, and will be, in english, the current manuals are in english. It
would be easier for the engineers in question to have both arabic and english
versions of the manual.
All I am asking for is ’Are there arabic versions of the manual?’, not advice on
how to run bi-lingual programmes, or train planners, with respect.
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I would suggest use english manuals after all Suretrack is in English/the reports
is in english/ The will type in english so rather than trying to have schedules in
two languages I would suggest just sticking with one. Have you asked the
engineers what language they prefer.
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Not seen these manuals in Arabic language especially so far. So better to use
English manuals for future reference and help.
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Hi, Im a Planner working in the Middle East and tasked with training a couple of
engineers in SureTrak. Arabic is their first language and I think it would be
easier to get them started with manuals in Arabic. Can anyone suggest where I
may be able to order them from? MAny Thanks
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RE: Planning Training and Certification
Hi Ronald and Gary,
How about for others outside US and UK. I believe PMI has a worldwide
membership and the annual fee is much lower than PEO. Also, PMI has College of
Scheduling whitin the organisation.
As for AACEi, the concerntration is more to US members. Does the

certification is recognised outside the US? If yes, waht is the procedure to be
certified and get the recognition.
Regards.
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Hi Castro,
Check the primavera website :- www.primavera.com
Regards.
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Is there a training center/school in the Philippines that offers courses on
Primavera Project Planner (P3)?
Thanks!
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Have not done it but it has been waved under my nose a several interviews over
the past few years.
NVQ, National Vocational Qualification. Comes in severla levels
Level 1 = numpty (Car Mechanic)

Level 5 = bright spark (Equivilent to an A Level)
From a family memeber who is an NVQ assesor, its a combination of developed

learning and on the job application. So you do course work, are graded. Apply it
to a real situation and that is then assesed.
The NVQ they ran was not in planning as such, but Project Control overall. Last
person I knew who did it was an estimator from Kvaerner. Now he’s a top flight
planner, so must have helped him some !
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Have any body done a NVQ. As far as I am aware it is pritty big in the UK. If
yes what was your opinion of the NVQ system.
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You might also want to take a look at what The Planning Engineers Organisation
can provide by way of formal recognition and representation for planners/
schedulers.
Regards
Gary France
Chairman
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There is only one internationally recognized certification for Planners and
Schedulers. It is called the Planning and Scheduling Professional (PSP) and is
offered by the AACEi. You can find out more at http://www.aacei.org/
certification/GuideToPSPCertification.pdf. I highly recommend it. Good luck!
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I’m curious to know if there is anywhere in the UK where one can obtain at least
6 months training in Planning Engineering.
I’d also like to know if there is any Planning related certifications or diploma out
there.
Thanks.
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Heavy Civils
Can sombody define Heavy Civils or Heavy Civil Construction?
I mean to say that which category come under Heavy Civils like dams, high rise
complex etc.
which are others? please elobrate
thanks
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RE: SEEKING CAREER ADVANCEMENT
By the way Molly,
Let them have a go, you have a buddy

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Hi Molly,
My wife is a marketer, the planning skills required in marketing is the same as

projects, do not believe the BBB.
Nice too meet a friendly face:-)
Regards
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How about;
Junior Planner ---> Project Planner ---> Senior Project Planner ---> Project
Analyst (Assistant Project Controller) ---> Project Controller ---> Project
Advisor (Head of Department).
Promoted to each position based on experience, interpersonal skill,

communication and etc every 5 years.
Regards.
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Molly,
With the organisation I work for, if you are responsible to the Managing Board
for the whole of the project, you are the Project Manager. If you direct a team
of specialists contributing to part or the whole of the project, you are a Project
Team Leader. They tend to keep it fairly simple which I think is probably a good
thing.
Chris Oggham

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In my view for Scheduler, the best term which we can use is “ Project
Coordinator” and “Project Planner” and these two are mostly and commonly used.
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Project Coordinator, Project Scheduler, Project Planner sounds more
appropriate that Planning Engineer, for the works involving consulting with the
site engineers and later updating your programme to reflect the project status
for the management. You must be well skilled in the use of scheduling
programme.
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The question of position title is not insignificant. in the early days, we were
called planner/schedulers. Then the two were split apart. Then the two became
somewhat interchangeable.
If we look at a sister track, finance, consider 100 years ago when the person
who counted the beans was called a "bookkeeper." The title was descriptive of
the primary activity. But at some point, the bookkeeper learned to do more than
simply record transactions. He created budgets and monitored spending. He was
now called an "accountant," because he/she could account for how the money
was being spent. Today, the upper end of that career line is called CFO, and
beneath that position is finance manager.
In the world of Time Management, an equivalent title might be Time Manager,

but most folks see the immediate pomposity of the title, and look elsewhere.
Perhaps Time Analyst might be more descriptive while also sounding a little less
like God.
Interesting subject though.

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Project Manager
Coordinator Manager
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Hey, if youre THE planner in your company, why are you still a guest. Join
PlanningPlannet !
If you are THE planner, go for Planning Engineer or Planning Manager. You can
always tag on the senior later.
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Okay thanks guy i will think on. Hopefully i will be getting more money too!
Unfortunately i am the only planner in the office so its hard to guage really.
I thought about Junior Project Planner moving on to Senior Project Planner but
if my boss isnt in i am responsible for his duties something which a junior
wouldnt be able to do. He is the project team leader over everyone so not really
just associated with the planning department... oh its all too complicated.
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RE: Has Anyone Had A Change of Hart About AI Take
I will check him out, thanks. My point of view is I think everybody has a right
point of view, just some are righter than others, and mine suits me as the best
available to me.
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Philip,
Thank you very much. Will search for these. They sound like my sort of
academics. Have read a bit of Marvin Minskys work. He is affiliated with MIT,
just out of interest.
Thanks again,
Darrell
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Hi Darryll,
By the way the book by Richard Dawkins, is the "The Blind Watcmaker", and the
one by Peter Plichta is "God’s Secret Formula" (Nothing to do with religion). The
problem with Dawkins is he does not have a website, but he has some
cheerleaders. The reason for this is that there is a lot of "crazies" out there
that does not agree with what he writes. Peter Plichta on their other hand has
pissed of quite a few Professors and academics, that he has proved wrong, and
has sort of been excorsized by them. I think he holds something like 7 PHd’s
interalia, Physics, Pharmacy and Law. Gives some perspective of his mind.
Hope this saves you a bit of reference work.
Regards
Philip
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James,
You are right........
Regards,
Darrell
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Darrell,
These are are all philosophical questions you pose.
The question to what extent we are in control and what decisions we really make
can and have been debated at length by many philosophers.
You misunderstand my comment on ’science fiction’, as I said before it’s

impossible to predict what advances will be made.
My view is anything could be proven possible through science.
Regards
James.
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Philip.
Thanks for the recommended reading. Will look up.
Darrell
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Hi Daryll,
On a more serious note, I just had a recall of something I read somewhere you
might find interesting for your thesis. In a book by Richard Dawkins (The
cheerleader for Darwinism) he discussed the possibility, of evolution, not in the
organic chemistry field, but in inorganics. I seem to recall it was either Silates
or Silanes (silicon chains) which had the possibility of evolving in a simular was
as organic life has. Thus there could evolve super inorganic computer like beings.
Another author who is quite interesting a has patents on these silicon chains, is
Dr Peter Plichta, who has written some books on the subject. He actually wrote
about prime numbers, but part of the book is devoted to this subject. As a
matter of interest he also has a patent on a flying saucer.
Unfortunately I do not keep records of all I read, but you will find both these
guys on the internet, as they have websites.
Regards
Philip
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Philip,
Really like that comparison. Perhaps AI has reached levels of intelligence we
cannot comprehend and thus have rendered politics irellevant.
James,
Yes the question is difficult and very challenging, and raises all sorts of other
questions.
Like:- What is control anyway?

And what are we rellay in control of?
What is an important decision? Or is it, "a decision" in itself that is of
importance?
And rethorically, what decisions have you made yourself today? Or are these
programmed conditions that you are responding to?
See, a lot of questions.

Would having someone or something else making decisions really be the stuff of
"science fiction" or are we living with this already, and have not even noticed.
Well????????
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Hi Daryll,
Strongly disagree, have explained my thoughts before, but, is still one

possibility. If anybody can teach computors politics (which is probably AI as the
politicians don’t seem to have any real intelligence) then maybe computors can
take over the world. However, the problem is that computors aren’t stupid
enough.
Regards
Philip
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“Computers, expert systems, knowledge based systems, or artificial intelligence,
will replace our industry leaders, where policy and decision making are concerned.
This is an impossible question to answer as no one can predict the boundries

technology will cross in the future. How things will continue to change, to what
extent and over what time period cannot be estimated. Anything we think is
impossible now may be proved achievable in the future at some point. There are
many examples of this shown throughout history.
But, if computers or artificial intelligence end up making our most important

decisions for us, how can we be in control? We then move into the realms of
science fiction.
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RE: PMI College of Scheduling’s SEI
Hi Murray,
I get the general drift of your posting, and it sounds good, however, what
disciplines are you looking at, where are you going? The idea sounds good, but
clarify yourself, I am good to volunteer, but after a few years in the military, I
learnt to ask questions, before becoming a volunteer. Are you developing new
software? Or what are you doing?
Trgards
Philip
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thisCollege of Scheduling’s SEI
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My name is Murray Woolf, and I am Managing Director of the College of
Scheduling’s Scheduling Excellence Initiative (SEI). SEI was commissioned last
year as the College’s comprehensive effort to bring about scheduling excellence
within our profession.
Our guiding principle is that "if the schedule touches it, or it touches the
schedule," then we are concerned with bringing about the best possible
scheduling services and products. As we considered all the ways scheduling
services and products are affected (or affect), we identified seven key areas of
concentration. SEI was then subdivided into seven corresponding subcommittees
(plus an eight, administrative subcommittee).
The first three subcommittees will be writing best practices, guidelines,

principles, concepts, and recommendations for all aspects of project scheduling.
STRATEGIC BUSINESS PLANNING (SBP) concentrates on pre-project
planning, while SCHEDULE MANAGEMENT (SM) is focused on the design,
development, maintenance, and usage of schedules during the project.
SCHEDULE IMPACT ANALYSIS (SIA) deals with post-project issues, including
dispute resolution methodologies, etc.
SOFTWARE ENRICHMENT (SE) is a subcommittee bent on bringing about a

new breed of scheduling software, where unwanted features are removed,
wanted features are added, and existing features are improved. SE will foster
open dialogue between software publishers and be a catalyst for development of
consistent calculations among products.
INDUSTRY FOCUS (IF) is a gathering of scheduling expert from approximately

twenty different application environments ("industries") that will write
qualifying extensions to core viewpoints espoused by the other subcommittees.

EDUCATION & KNOWLEDGE CENTER (EKC) will develop training materials,

provide training, as well as scheduler and scheduling trainer certification.
RESEARCH & INNOVATION (RI) operates a "think tank" where new

innovations in scheduling can be incubated. It will also perform objective
reviews of emerging technologies and methodologies, ala Consumer Reports.
Finally, it will administer technical research on scheduling topics.
AS YOU CAN SEE, SEI is about to change the future of scheduling in ways that
will effect our profession for decades to come. I am inviting you to join the
effort. We still need another 100 volunteers. Everyone brings something to the
table. If you are interested in helping us "make history," then contact me at
(303) 697-3970 [Denver], or write to me at mwoolf@long-intl.com I’d love to
bring you aboard. - Murray Woolf
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RE: A Question For a Masters - Will Computers Take
Darrell
Quite well rounded up I think
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Folks,
Thanks again for all yer interesting commentary.

Some very useful notes indeed, and from some very polished individuals indeed.
Cannot help but re-comment.
Indeed: Computers can now beat perhaps well over 99% of the "human"
population as a whole at chess, one would have to admit?
Grandmasters account for perhaps a very small fraction of the human
population, although might I suggest, any human given time and enough coaching
and training could potentially reach grandmaster level. Thus increasing the
opportunity or potential to beat the best of computer chess programmes.
On The Take Over of AI in our (Construction) industry:

Perhaps in the "developed" world, on closer examination we can see this
happening?
One would have to admit that, factory production of building or construction
materials, is driven physically, not by human toil any more, but by machines. On
site erection of components, as time goes by, is mainly by mechanical and
electronic devices? I have seen robotic breaking devices, albeit controlled at a
distance by a human. As time goes by we no longer require the level of human
labour on sites that we once depended on. Perhaps econimics played a big part in
this, as opposed to the need for an easier life?
Perhaps because a year is a relatively long time in terms of the human life span?
It is a lot more subtle to us than we can recognise.
Darrell
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Hi, Philip.
Sorry, but "Mildly Disagree" was one of the options offered by Darrell in the
original post. That’s my selection, and I’m sticking to it to the death!
I guess it sort of depends on what timeframe one is looking at. I certainly don’t
see computers "taking over" this function in this century, but beyond that, who
knows.
As for the chess metaphor, when MIT’s McHack defeated Ben Landey, for the
first ever victory by a computer over a human, Bobby Fischer looked over the
game and pronounced it "a disgrace to the human race." (This was accurate -- I
knew the late Ben Landey; very nice man, absolutely horrendous chess player!
The antithesis of Fischer. . .) The progress of 40 years, from McHack over
Landey to Deep Blue over Kasparov, may seem huge; but it is probably nowhere
close to the quantum leap that would be needed to take computer chess to the
next level (say, beating grandmasters in every game with White and never losing
with Black.) In fact, if you played over the games of the Deep Blue/Kasparov
match, you know that Kasparov made some blunders that even Ben Landey might
have avoided! I seriously doubt that Deep Blue would have gotten a plus score in
the recent Linares tournament, for example.
All of which is a digression. Someone once observed that programming

computers to play chess is easy; it’s programming them to play table tennis
that’s hard! The fact is, I don’t think computers will be able to make PM
decisions on their own, only support the decision-making process much more
than currently.
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On Second thoughts....
The problem exists in the planning industry and the most people don’t
understand the technology they are running on.
The technology is DBF database technology which is 25 years olf, therefore

they do not understand the ease in input in terms of modern techonology, like
Excel, which already is old.
It’s a question of learning and keeping up with the times and the past.
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[double post deleted]

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Hi Stephen,
Thanks for re-surrecting yhis thread. It is not possible for a computer to think
for itself. It needs human input. What you say is quite correct. But you must
have a clear stand point on the subject, and "midly disagree" is not a clear stand
point.
The fact that Kasparov (World Chess champion) has been beaten by the IBM
Blue super computer is a generally known fact. It doesn’t make the computer
cleaverer that Kasparov, it just calculates the potential moves, which ranges in
the billion worth op potential moves, which then takes the most suitable part
towards winning.
You statement about the "speed of light". DEFINE IT!
Einstein worked on 3 times ten to the power of ten centimers per second, you’ve
got other supposiable brilliant people trying to calculate the same number and
they come to figure like 2,999797979 for example. But they forgot to take the
effects of the vaccumm into consideration.
How do we get to the boundary of human imagination and thought, was Einstein
right? or the people that tried to find his mistakes/errors?
The question of AI is not a mild question so there is either a correct: They are
taking over (computers) or NOT!
Let’s stop the symantics and speak honestly!
I like your posting!

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Please excuse my disinterring some old threads -- I’m new to the forum, and,
frankly, am quite excited about many of the topics being discussed here. One
does not find anything close to this level of sophistication in most PM discussion
fora.
A couple of points:
Someone wrote: "The possible moves in a chess games if finite, so that if you
have the ultimate computor, it can beat anyone at chess."
Even the ultimate computer will be, presumably, limited by the speed of light.
Indeed, it is possible that the current approach to chess computer programming
may have reached close to its optimum level, as it’s pretty much of a "grind-
through-all-the-options" approach. With each ply-level deeper the computer
looks, the number of options it must examine increases logarithmically. To go
from looking two moves ahead to three moves ahead was relatively simple. But
now the programs are routinely examining all options five moves ahead,
sometimes more. Thus a huge increase in speed would be necessary to look even
one ply deeper. The next advance is likely to require a better simulation of
"human judgement."
This is relevant to the discussion because human judgement is the stumbling

block for a project decision "expert system" solution. As a result, my answer to
the original question would be "Mildly Disagree".
But, as I mentioned in the final chapter of a book I published five years ago, I
think it would be relatively easy to improve on the current status of computer
support, especially in the arena of resource targeting and leveling (especially on
a multiproject basis). It would require, however, new input fields that reflect a
change in project planning/management to recognize that the purpose of every
project is investment, and that stress maximized value-above-cost (the great
oxymoron: "project profit"!).
What I suggested in my book was a software package that quantified such value
through user input, and that would crank for several hours, or over a weekend
looking at all options and providing each with a "score". The user would then
arrive on Monday morning, examine the results for the top 10 scoring solutions,
and either select the one he/she likes best or move on to examine solutions 11-
20, etc.
Such a system would not be an expert system, but it would provide much more
computer support than anything currently out there.
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Hi Darrel,
I wasn’t getting at you, and there is nothing like a simple mind. My computor is
playing up today, thus, the four postings. How can one rely on a computor for
decisions when they make mistakes like that.
Regards
Philip
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Philip,
Thanks for that, I for one have a simple mind.

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Hi Guys,
A couple of points.
Firstly on traffic lights, they were there long before computors and were run
bz simple timer switches, so the point of them having any intelligence is invalid.
Computors have just made their operation a bit more sophicated and their
reliability less.
Darrell’s point on chess does not take into account the difference between
computing power and speed from 1990 to 2002. I recently read an article about
the Cray computor being the first computor to beat one of the grandmasters.
The possible moves in a chess games if finite, so that if you have the ultimate
computor, it can beat anyone at chess.
Coming back to AI I think it has its uses, but more as a tool in decision making
than as the actual decision maker. One of the problems is the amount of data
required to make certain decisions, one must never forget the complexity of the
human mind. Secondly is keeping all the data up to date, eg something could be
happening just before the decison is made, that will that could invalidate the
decision, because the data has not been updated. Remember humans have senses
ie hearing, sight and feel, that assists us in making decisions.
Take marketing, one of the major tools in business, try putting it at the
entrance of a shopping mall to stop shoppers and ask them questions.
It still remains an interesting topic.
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Message
RE: Work-Study Programs
Thanks Jaco,
I will suggest that one, as the guy wants to go into QS, and from there into
project controls. The problem is there is no distance learning for QS here, so
he would have to go through the Technicons full-time.
Regards,
Philip
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RE: Work-Study Programs
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Hi Philip
As u know practical experiance is the best way I would suggest getting a mentor
for a young person as well as try CEASA and AACEI (I Know AACEI has a
internet course).
Cheers
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this Programs
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Hi Guys,
Anybody can help me, I am looking for a college/org that does distance learning
for young guys, who want to work up their way in project controls, and are
prepared to start on the tools, and learn the business while they are studying,
any suggestions. Something like London Guilds.
Regards
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Message
RE: Project Management Training - Scotland
Do you mean Project Management Training or Planning & Scheduling Training?

(After all, this is a planning & scheduling forum.)
For Planning & Scheduling Training, I would first look to the AACEi at http://
www.aacei.org/welcome.shtml. They have 5,500 members in 78 different
countries.
For Project Management Training, I would suggest PMI at http://pmi.org/info/

default.asp.
Good luck!
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Project Management Training - Scotland
this
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I am looking to do some for of project management training that is accredited
to international standards. I am currently based in Scotland. Any ideas where I
can source this?
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Message
RE: Planning experience
Hi Pernilla,
It is a pleasure. Just remember the basic principles when you read a book on
PM, for anything to be a project, as opposed to production, there are three
areas of risk, time, money and quality. The higher the risks, the more difficult
the project. Thus a project can be anything from a wedding to a space flight to
the moon. You can do the same thing twice, but if you try to do it faster,
cheaper or with higher quality standards the second time, it remains a project.
Regards
Philip
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Thanks for that Philip.
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Hi Pernilla,
Have a look at the "Project Services Career issues" forum, there is a thread
"Re: Newby", with a posting by Oliver Jones, who is looking for traine/junior
planners. His details is contained in the posting.
Regards
Philip
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I have tried getting a junior planning role, but they are so few and far between
and when they hear I have no project experience, they decline. I will have a look
for some books though, that might be a good place to start
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RE: Planning experience
Hi Pernilla,
Planning experience is something you earn thru time, however there are a
number of good books that you can read to help you fast track the learning
curve. Suggest you search the website or look for a mentor who can guide you
through the process. Philips advice would be a great way to start.
Good Luck!
Regards,
Daniel
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Hi Pernilla,
Knowing the software is half of the battle won. I would suggest find yourelf a
position as a trainee/junior planner, which will enable you to get the required
experience by working under the guidance of a more senior planner. I recently
saw a posting on the same subject, where one of the respondees, was looking for
junior people.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Philip
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Planning experience
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I have experience in using P3, but none in using it in a project enviroment. I
know the program well but fall down due to lack of experience...any tips?
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Message
List of Planning Training Courses
Dear PPers,
The PEO has started to pull together a list of training courses for planners and
schedulers. To see the current list, please click on the link below.
List of Training Courses
If you know of any others, we would gladly list them.
Best wishes
Gary France
Chairman
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Message
RE: Microsoft Excel - Project C/B Analysis
Dear John,
If You want to compare project with aspect of cost and benefits You must to
use NPV/IRR methods (If we agree thar c/b it is only outflows/inflows of
course). Simplest but labour consuming is export of selected data from MSP to
Excel (it is easy in this MS Suite) and multiply values with discounting factors
(you can simlpy calculate NPV in this form). But I have other, more professional
concept!
You can use Pertmaster. This system is comaptible with Primavera and MS
Project so You are able to read all project data in Pertmaster. This system has
NPV/IRR analysis features. Other option is MC simulation so You can calculate
propability of NPV/IRR levels! Tt is probabbly the best solution for You,
specially that You can to model other aspects with using of hierarchical/generic
resources.
Good Luck
P.S. Today Pertmaster have greater price than earlier :-( BUT You can buy only
Viewer with calculation capabilities (for test) for small price. [Copyright
infringement offer deleted by Moderator.} All the best for construction
engineers and managers in USA :-)
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Sorry, I don’t know how to use P3e to compare project values (NPV, IRR, etc.,
taking into consideration discount rates, etc.). Maybe you can explain why you
consider P3e as the best. The best if to compare with what?
I think that you can write that P3e is better than something else and describe
why do you think so. But stating that P3e is the best means that you know all
that is not true.
Regards,
Vladimir
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Primavera Enterprise is best one to compare the schedule , cost loading, %
completion etc for multi projects.
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RE: Microsoft Excel - Project C/B Analysis

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Primavera Enterprise is best one to compare the schedule , cost loading, %

completion etc.
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If you want to compare projects you better take a look at Primavera Enterprise.
Than you can make your comparisons without making export files etc.
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Microsoft Excel - Project C/B Analysis
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Dear Fellows,
I am looking for an Excel template that compares the value of projects. I would
take a P3 or MS Project schedule, cost load, export to Excel and then run C/B
analysis of the different projects.....
Does anyone know where I can go?
Thanks
John Nixon
jnixon@verline.com
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Message
Productivity Norms & usuage
can i get some productivity norms for Mild steel pipelaying & ductile iron pipe
laying for various activities?
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RE: Books for planning in P3
There’s also a book called "Construction Scheduling with Primavera Enterprise,

2nd Edition", by David A. Marchman. It definitely could be used as a training
manual for the application; it’s very step-by-step oriented. I have found it
helpful in a general way, although there are enough differences between P3e
and P3e/c to cause some frustration.
Hope this may be of some help to you!
Regards,
Christine
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[duplicate posting removed]
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Mr Harris Book on P3 is a must-read. I have read it and it in and it is handy as a
reference material. Please explore that.
Usman Bakundi
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Dear Sagar
If you have P3 in your PC you can find P3 refrence and manual books in directory
of P3, books are in PDF format, these book is very useful for learning.
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And it is an excellent book. Much better value than a training course. Highly
recommended for people at all levels.
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RE: Books for planning in P3

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I have published a book on P3, details are available on my web site at www.eh.
com.au.
I am in the process of writting a book on P3e, it will not be ready for some time.
Regards
Paul E Harris
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this for planning in P3
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Friends I am looking for a book for planning in Primaver both P3 and enterprize
that would give me step by step planning process taking an example.
Could you recommend some books as i was not able to find any book that would
give me a overall perview
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RE: New to SAP
SAP = Systeme, Anwendungen, Produkte
You can read about the company at http://www.sap.com/ if you are that
interested.
Good luck!
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RE:
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SAP - (I’m not sure. It’s from a German company).
ERP - Enterprise Resource Planning

CRM - Customer Relationship Management
SCM - Supply Chain Management
There are entire industries built around these acronyms.
Bernard Ertl
InterPlan Systems - eTaskMaker Project Planning Software
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RE:
thisNew to SAP
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Agin, forgive my stupidity, maybe these are obvious to some?
So what does "SAP" stand for?

As what does "ERP", "CRM" & "SCM" stand for??
"RGDS" & "ADB",
"DOD"
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RE:
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Darrell, SAP is an integrated ERP, CRM & SCM database system. It is supposed
to integrate all business functions. A fair percentage of Fortune 500 companies
are using it.
Bernard Ertl
InterPlan Systems - eTaskMaker Project Planning Software

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Am really showing my ignorance, but what is SAP????
Darrell
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Yes you will have a great or enhance your chance if you learn SAP modules which
is related to construction industry.
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New to SAP
this
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I have good experience in technical support industry (hardware, networking and
some banking applications). And now i know completely how the tools like siebel,
remedy are being used effectively in MNC’s for their workflow and I am really
interested in implementing the process flow of support industry through
programming the same, can i learn any of the SAP modules and enter the field
of SAP?
Do I make sense? sorry if i dont.

I trully value and depend your replies.
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PlanningPlanet Forum

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[1].html (1 of 5)11/02/2008 9:03:49 AM

RE: Planners -v- Schedulers -v- Keyboard Jockeys

You guys are correct in your comments.

FIRST BECOME A PLANNER, ON THE JOB WITH PEN AND PAPER

Makes me blood riseeee.

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[1].html (2 of 5)11/02/2008 9:03:49 AM

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[1].html (3 of 5)11/02/2008 9:03:49 AM

RE: Planners -v- Schedulers -v- Keyboard Jockeys

Project Planning and Scheduling is an intellectual process. Knowing what it is

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[1].html (4 of 5)11/02/2008 9:03:49 AM

that you are going to Plan and Schedule is paramount.

But then that is another story

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file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[1].html (5 of 5)11/02/2008 9:03:49 AM

I dont think, Paul Harris’s book is available FREE of COST.

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[2].html (1 of 2)11/02/2008 9:03:52 AM

RE: Primavera training ebook

You can try for this as well.

Hope this may help you.

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[2].html (2 of 2)11/02/2008 9:03:52 AM

www.avaxhome.org for more VB / Excel / Access books. U can find 100’s of

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[7].html (1 of 2)11/02/2008 9:03:56 AM

Access / VBA guide

So, the guide should provide me with;

- advanced tools in the Access / Excel GUI

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[7].html (2 of 2)11/02/2008 9:03:56 AM

Can the demenstration software be used to learn?

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[9].html (1 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:57 AM

RE: HELP ****** e-learning or distance learning training

1. SureTrak is the old lightweight product

I suggest you go to the www.primavera.com for more technical information.

A demonstration version of SureTrak was available to be downloaded from the

1)Planning Using Primavera SureTrak Project Manager Version 3.0 - Updated

2)Planning Using Primavera Project Planner

3) Project Planning and Scheduling Using

4)Project Planning and Scheduling Using

Much appreciate advises/comments given

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[9].html (2 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:57 AM

Just visited your website.

My books are designed to be used as self teach books.

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[9].html (3 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:57 AM

HELP ****** e-learning or distance learning training

I am extremely interested in undertaking a Primavera training course. Ideally i

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[9].html (4 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:57 AM

If you want an accurate measurement of quantities you have to take into

It is easier and sometimes, as far as statistics are near reality, it works.

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[10].html (1 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:58 AM

RE: How to get Take-Off qty’s???

Have a good read of the contract, specifications and drawings, try to

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[10].html (2 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:58 AM

RE: How to get Take-Off qty’s???

You can used AutoCADD to get it. Tools...inquiry...distance...area then click to

Thank you in advance.

Thats all ...........

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[10].html (3 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:58 AM

How to get Take-Off qty’s???

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[10].html (4 of 4)11/02/2008 9:03:58 AM

It really depends on what you want, PRINCE2 Practitioner or APM Certification

There are some courses run by the International Project Management

Hope this is useful.

file:///C|/Downloads/training/forum_post[11].html (1 of 2)11/02/2008 9:03:59 AM

Professional Qualifications?? Are There Any

I am wondering if there is anything planning wise to rival say Prince2