Plato’s Gorgias

 Consists of Socrates’ conversation with three interlocutors: Gorgias, Polus and Calicles
 The order of the dialogue partners is clearly arranged in a crescendo, with Calicles being the
hardest one to face
 Plato does not treat Socrates’ opponents as straw men: rather they are presented as
alternatives to Socrates’ way of life
 Stephanus Pagination is a number system used to reference Plato’s text
 It consists in the name of the dialogue, a number and a lowercase letter from a to e
 The dialogue divides quite naturally as follows: brief interlude at the beginning,
 It follows brief interlude, conversation with Gorgias, Polis then Calicles and then epilogue
 Traditionally the dialogue has been given the sub-title “on rhetoric” yet most of the ensuing
discussion is devoted to ethical question such as who is to be called happy and how one
should live
 Terence Irwin says that “the Gorgias discusses questions about the foundation and
justification of ethics that deserve the attention of any thoughtful person”
 Two questions however are interlinked: the idea of rhetoric common is Plato’s time
ruminates the model of the happy life and how one should live. Plato questions these ideas
 The first of Socrates’ interlocutor is the rhetorician Gorgias. At the beginning of the Gorgias,
he has just given an exhibition of his skill that Socrates missed
 Polus and Calicles are similarly rhetoricians: Calicles may well have been a platonic fiction
 Plato intends to show that there are far-reaching consequences to the rhetoric of Gorgias;
Polus and Calicles are meant to embody some of these consequences
 Dodd’s said that rhetoric was road to power and guarantee of personal safety. Politicians
had to defend their policies before a jury
 Rhetoric was a skill needed by many
 Socrates opposes a different way of engaging with his interlocutors, preferring to engage in
question and answer dialectic instead of speeches
 Socrates doesn’t indulge in long speeches, but in back and forth discussions with his
dialogue partners
 The confrontation portrayed in the Gorgias between Socrates and his interlocutors is not
merely intellectual but concerns one’s way of life and what occupations are worth pursing
 Plato wants to present two ways of life by examining them and see if it withstands scrutiny
 Polus wants to answer Socrates’ question on Gorgias’ behalf
 Socrates wants to know what Gorgias teaches and what his craft is
 Very broad meaning of the term craft in Plato. One of the questions asked is whether or not
rhetoric is a craft and if it is what kind of craft is it
 Gorgias argues that rhetoric is the craft that has to do with speeches but Socrates points out
that many crafts have to do with speeches
 Gorgias replies that other crafts consist with working with your hand but this is not the case
when it comes to rhetoric
 Gorgias replies that rhetoric is about the greatest of human concern but Socrates retorts
that this is disputed as doctors will say it’s health whilst bankers might say money is
 Gorgias tries to sharpen his focus by stating rhetoric is the ability to persuade in law courts,
take control of political gatherings and make other do your bidding
 In other words, rhetoric is a producer of persuasion as other crafts persuade about what
they are about
 Gorgias replies that it takes place in law courts etc. and concerned with matters that are just
and unjust
 Socrates’ next move is to distinguish between conviction resulting from having been taught
and conviction resulting from being persuaded: rhetoric operates with the latter
 Next, Gorgias argues that rhetoric succeeds in persuading when other crafts fail
 He then introduces the idea of rhetoric as a competitive craft; rhetoric can be misused but in
that case we should not blame the teacher
 Socrates announces that he will lead a refute to Gorgias’s positions
 Gorgias claims that rhetoric is about the just and unjust and although it is largely
inaccessible, he admits that he will teach his students about it if they aren’t knowledgeable
about these things
 For Socrates it is incompatible with claiming to not responsible for their student’s actions as
he has taught them what is right and wrong
 Polus butts in and accuses Gorgias of having given in to Socrates out of shame
 He says that Gorgias is in puzzlement about the nature of rhetoric and invites Socrates to say
what he takes rhetoric to be
 Socrates argues that Rhetoric is a knack not a craft, as it takes into account what’s pleasant
rather that what is the best choice.
 Knacks such as pastry baking guess what would give you pleasure without concern for what
is good for you. Knacks do not require intelligence on what you are doing.
 The debate then goes on into questions about the nature of power and if it is good to wield
power
 Polus and Socrates both argue that having power is good for the one who has it
 Socrates argues that doing what seems best for one without intelligence is not good for one,
therefore one who does what seems best to one without intelligence lacks power therefore
rhetoricians have no power
 Later in the conversation it becomes clear that Socrates distinguished between doing what
seems best to one and doing what one wants
 “Without intelligence” has to do with Socrates’ earlier proof that rhetoric is not a craft
 The crux of the dialogue comes when Poilus argues that power is the ability to do what one
wants and most important. We all know what we wat and this is what one wants
 Socrates challenges this saying we can mistake if something is good or best therefore is it
possible to be mistaken about what we want
 It takes reflection and self-knowledge to come to know what one wants
 Polus argues that suffering injustice is worse than doing it but doing it is more shameful.
 Socrates get him to admit if something is more shameful than something else it is either
because it is more painful or because it’s worse or both
 Since its not more painful it must be worse
 As Socrates ascertains during their conversation Polus distinguishes between the good and
the admirable
 For Polus doing what’s unjust is more shameful but better for you. This is expressing a
shame culture is which being well thought of is the accepted social aim
 In the last part of his conversation with Polus, Socrates argues that it is better to suffer
punishment than to go unpunished if one has committed injustice
 Socrates’ idea is that committing injustice makes our soul unjust and injustice in the soul is
an evil, just punishment is the removal of evil
 Callicles stating that if Socrates was right then human life would be turned upside down and
in fact we are doing the opposite of what we should do
 Callicles accuses Socrates of having exploited Polus’s sense of shame when the latter
admitted that doing injustice is more shameful than suffering it
 After accusing Socrates of manipulating Polus he embarks on a long speech that revolves
around two themes: the distinction between by nature and by convention and secondly the
opposition between Callicles’ and Socrates’ respective ways of life
 Callicles argues that laws and conventions on what is right and wrong are simply ideas
founded by weak to stop the strong from claiming more than their “fair share”
 He argues that a greater man should have more than the lesser. He says that we subdue the
great into thinking that we should give people no more than their fair share from a young
age. This belief enslaves the great to the will of the weak
 Callicles gives the advice to Socrates is that his refuting will not give him a good life but
rhetoric will. Socrates dialogue is pointless in his eyes as it shuns political spaces and doesn’t
cause any change. Rhetoric causes change with the real world yet philosophy doesn’t so
rhetoric is a greater force.
 Socrates ask Callicles if superior, better and stronger men are the same to which he says yes
 Socrates argues that the ones that are weak and setting up the rules are the strong as the
set the rules
 Callicles argues that he did not mean that the stronger ones by number should exploit the
weak
 Socrates then asks that by better does he mean intelligent ones to which Callicles replies yes
 Callicles get annoyed as Socrates keeps on talking about craftsmen such as shoemakers
 Callicles then clarifies that those with intelligence in the affairs of the city should have a
greater share of the rule than those who aren’t
 Socrates asks Callicles whether the rulers will ‘rule themselves’. Socrates clarify he means
being temperate
 Callicles argues that temperance is idiotic and you should consume as much as you want
following a hedonistic lifestyle
 Socrates argues hedonism leads to a need to be constantly looking for resources whilst
Socrates allows one to be content with what ones got
 Socrates argued that by constantly experiencing pleasures they are dulled over time
 Callicles argues that the extremities of joy and pain keep live entertaining
 Socrates asks if it applies to hunger and eating, being thirsty and drinking. Callicles agrees.
Socrates asks if scratching the itch counts and he says
 Socrates then asks if bottoming in gay sex counts as fulfilling pleasure. Callicles is disgusted
by this but Socrates argues that Callicles said the pleasant and good are the same so there is
no difference between good and bad pleasures
 The pleasant and the good are the same according to Callicles. Opposites cannot be present
at the same time, the good and the bad are opposites therefore cannot be present at the
same time. Hence the pleasant and panful can be present at the same time i.e. thirst and
hunger.
 Socrates attempts to carry on the conversation with Callicles after his refutation
 The conservation avails itself of the past conversation
 Plato mentions that flute and lyre playing are flattering knacks similar to rhetoric
 He argues that rhetoric could be used to positively shape the souls of citizens
 Socrates said that if you fill your appetites and those of other in a true sense. He states that
you should fill appetites that once filled make you feel better and not those that make you
worse
 Socrates states that self-control, braveness, piousness and a sense of justness is needed to
be a good man
 Socrates argues that Callicles’ purposed life is the life of a marauder as he could not have a
friendship or partnership as he does whatever he wants without knowing what’s best for
you
 Without the goods traits one would be miserable. He argues that he was one therefore his
beliefs are definite
 Callicles say that thinks Socrates is right but isn’t convinced by him. Socrates claims that this
is due to Calicles’ love for the people
 The rest of the conversation deals with how one should care for the city
 Socrates says it should consist in making one’s fellow-citizens as good as possible, namely to
make them virtuous
 Socrates argues that no one does thing even highly regarded past politicians have failed to
practice the true political craft
 Socrates says that sophists and orators are one and the same
 Socrates says he is one of the few people to take up the true political craft as he does not
aim for gratification but at what’s best
 The epilogue deals with Socrates saying that there was a law concerning human being during
Cronus’s time. The God send the unjust souls to Tartarus and the Just to the Isles of the
Blessed
 They are judged by they studied each person’s soul was judged with all the things they
owned and now the person being judged is naked where the judge can look at their soul and
make a judgement based on their soul
 He argues that if you aren’t punished for crimes your soul will not be repaired and pay their
dues to the gods and men. People who are so unjust that they are lost causes punishment
can still have a role to play to set examples for others
 Annas argues that this can be taken as not literal and apply to Christianity and other
religions. There is a deeper judgement in the way we live