CALLALOO

AN INTERVIEW WITH GLORIA NAYLOR

by Ethel Morgan Smith

This interview was taped on May 18, 1997, in Wintergreen, Virginia. I’d never met Gloria
Naylor, though I know her work well.

SMITH: Gloria, I’d like to pick up this interview with a conversation I heard between
you and Nikki [Giovanni] about how we need to rethink the success of the Civil Rights
Movements and how in many ways it hasn’t worked.

NAYLOR: Yes. The progress that has been made because of the Civil Rights Move-
ment has been for the middle and upper-middle classes. Working class and poor
people are probably worse off. At least during segregation black children grew up
with black doctors, black teachers and black police officers. The power structure in
Harlem was black as it was in many cities like Atlanta and Charlotte. What integration
did was push black teachers out of the classroom leaving no one to teach black
children about their culture. Often times white teachers assume black students are
stupid, black students are then misplaced in special education classes and it becomes
a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I ascribe to what Malcolm X said: “no one has a true revolution by integrating a
lunch counter. A revolution is about land and power.” Now if the Civil Rights
Movement had brought black folks big land ownership, then I’d say fine, it worked.
But the older I get the more I believe in the spirit of Booker T. Washington and Marcus
Garvey. Don’t be running after white folks for a few crumbs; build your bakery. Build
your own house. Get yourself some land and a basic profession so that people will
have to come to you. If black folks had taken that advice, the texture of the black
community would be very different today. It would be stronger. Every nation
marches on the spine of its merchant class; that’s the solid middle class for any nation.
But what I see is a huge gap for black Americans. There’s the middle and upper-
middle classes, doing quite well, thank you. There’s the poor who’s not doing quite
well. I see few in the merchant class—like mom and pop stores. I’ve seen that transfer
of power from Jewish Americans to Pakistanis, Indians and Koreans, who now make
up the merchant class. Black Americans have resorted to selling their labor to the
government, which is the largest employer of the black middle class. Black Americans
also sell their skills to corporate America who only use them as drones. That’s how I
feel about integration. I think its time to reexamine it.

SMITH: How do you feel about affirmative action?

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NAYLOR: I believe it’s time to rethink affirmative action as well. This foolishness that
we hear so much of, “it’s just something to let incompetent people in the door,” is total
nonsense. Affirmative action is about the incompetent people who’ve always had the
jobs and the competent people waiting in line for some kind of opportunity to feed
their families and excel. That’s what affirmative action did—help those who were
already middle class.

SMITH: Affirmative action is viewed negatively because the media has attached a
black face to it. The fact of the matter is that white women as a group have benefited
more than anyone. There is never any discourse for this fact.

NAYLOR: You are absolutely right. Welfare is the same way.

SMITH: Do you think the black middle class is taking enough responsibility for the
poor?

NAYLOR: I don’t think so. There’s always room for more.

SMITH: Why do you think there is so little responsibility taken?

NAYLOR: I wrote a novel about it. Linden Hills is about the black upper class and their
morals. However, there is no simple answer. Black folks were so eager to integrate
into the white world so they could make believe that their good work would make
them colorless. After all, that’s what America is all about. And then there’s the
government. After the Civil Rights Movement so much destabilization occurred
because they couldn’t let things get outta hand. They had to control. Systematic
breaking down of organizations that said the same things as black Muslims are saying
today was common practice in the government. The Black Panthers and the Students
for a Democratic Society said, “if you want some results you’re going to have to get
way deep down in this mother.” Meaning tear it down and build it back up. I don’t
believe you have to do that, but I do believe you have to understand where the roots
are. Because that’s how deep racism is. Even if they are running around burning their
own buildings, stores or neighborhoods. Even if you burn a tree and don’t kill the root,
it’ll spring back up.

SMITH: And when it springs back we may not recognize it.

NAYLOR: Exactly. That’s what the Panthers meant by “getting way deep down.”
That’s what Louis Farrakhan meant at the Million Man March when he said, “America
is evil and rotten to its core.” And no one is willing to address that. And God knows
I don’t see a black leader addressing it. But there is a bit of hope. The Million Man
March demonstrated what we can do when we work together all by ourselves and
treat each other right.

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SMITH: I agree. But this brings back the issue of deep roots. What do we do about self-
hatred among black folks?

NAYLOR: My next point exactly. We have not climbed that mountain, have we?

SMITH: No, we haven’t. Self-hatred really gets exposed if you’re a dark-skinned black
woman in America. The place I can be the most invisible is the black community.

NAYLOR: That’s absolutely true and so sad.

SMITH: Gloria, finally, I am getting to your writing. That conversation fascinated me,
and I wanted to continue some of that exchange. I am a believer in expanding and
rethinking ideas. For us to keep evaluating and raising questions, to me, means that
we are still growing.

NAYLOR: I agree.

SMITH: When did you decide or know you were going to be a writer?

NAYLOR: When I was 27 or 28 years old.

SMITH: How did you know?

NAYLOR: As an older student at Brooklyn College, I had discovered black women

writers like Nikki Giovanni, Paule Marshall, Toni Morrison and Alice Walker.
Discovering all of their work led me to believe that I could also add my own voice.

SMITH: I find that interesting because you’re regarded with the same esteem as the
authors you’ve mentioned.

NAYLOR: For a while, there was a transition period for me when I was invited to read
with Paule Marshall or Toni Morrison. Then I realized that those authors considered
me a peer. Once I accepted that, it became a gratifying honor for me.

SMITH: Did you have any other mentors other than the black women writers you read
in college?

NAYLOR: Only Rick Pearce, a white male teacher I had. In fact I dedicate The Women
of Brewster Place to him for nurturing and helping me to shape my dream.

SMITH: I know you have roots in the South, but I never think of you as just a southern
writer. How do you see yourself?

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NAYLOR: I was born in New York, but conceived in Mississippi. No, I am not from
the South, but was born in a southern home. As a first born of southern parents I was
very much influenced by the South, its language, behavior and food in particularly.
By the time I was 7 or 8 years old, southern speech was all that I had heard.

SMITH: Was that a problem for you?

NAYLOR: No. I always had two ways of looking at things.

SMITH: Did you ever go back to the South?

NAYLOR: My father’s mother stayed in the South. We went back for family visits. My
mother’s mother had moved to New York by then. But I knocked around the South for
about 2 years when I was in my 20s. I went back as a pioneer missionary for the
Jehovah’s Witnesses.

SMITH: Do you come from a large family?

NAYLOR: Yes. I am the oldest of three daughters. My mother and father come from
families of 8 and 9 children. I have some 30 cousins on both sides. My mother’s sisters
were her best friends. She’s shy and has never done much socializing. It’s heart-
breaking to watch her lose them because they’re getting older and dying.

SMITH: Where were you in the South when you went back in your 20s?

NAYLOR: In Durham, North Carolina, and Jacksonville, Florida.

SMITH: When did you go back North?

NAYLOR: After 2 years, I drove back home [New York City] and began to go back to
school. The realization came to me that I was 25 years old with no marketable skills.
If I wasn’t going to make my life in the religion as a full-time missionary, I had to get
a job. I always had jobs to support myself in the ministry.

SMITH: What were some of those jobs?

NAYLOR: I worked for several hotels, including the Sheraton City Square in New
York City, as a telephone operator.

SMITH: What did you think about those jobs?

NAYLOR: That they were just that—jobs. There was no hope of any professional
progression. The most I could hope for was to be head operator.

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SMITH: You weren’t interested in staying with the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

NAYLOR: No I left that faith in 1975.

SMITH: How long were you a Jehovah’s Witness?

NAYLOR: Seven years. My mother was part of the faith all of her life. When I was 13
years old, she was baptized. At age 18 I was baptized. I had been around the faith for
a long time.

SMITH: Gloria, I want to know about how you write. What’s a good writing day for
you?

NAYLOR: In terms of time?

SMITH: Yes.

NAYLOR: If I am working on raw creation, I like to start early in the morning because
I am naturally an early riser. I get up, have coffee and cigarettes. I know that’s horrible,
but I do it anyway. After an hour, I am ready to go to work. In about 4 hours I take a
break by going through the mail, doing the laundry or just taking a walk. If I am
editing a piece, it’s nothing for me to sit in front of the computer for 12 hours.

SMITH: I want to know about your new novel.

NAYLOR: The Men of Brewster Place?

SMITH: Yes.

NAYLOR: What would you like to know?

SMITH: What is it about?

NAYLOR: Well, there’s the title [laughter].

SMITH: Will it take place during the same time and place as The Women of Brewster
Place?

NAYLOR: You’re going to hear from Ben, the janitor. Mattie Michael’s son, Basil.
You’re going to hear from Eugene Turner whose baby was killed and he didn’t show
up for the funeral. C.C. Baker will be heard from as well. The book is the voice of the
7 men. All of them don’t live in Brewster Place, but they’re somehow connected to it.

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SMITH: Did you conceive of this idea when you wrote The Women of Brewster Place?
If not, when?

NAYLOR: For 2 years the idea ran in the back of my mind. I didn’t think I’d be writing
this novel now because I had been working on my historical novel.

SMITH: What’s your historical novel about?

NAYLOR: It will be called Sapphira Wade, the foremother of Mama Day. We will go
back. Bascombe Wade and a Native American sail to Willow Springs and that becomes
a microcosm for building a nation. I’ve already done so much work on the book,
including reading three to four bookshelves of books for the research.

SMITH: That’s fascinating. And it sounds very Faulknerian.

NAYLOR: A lot of people have said that.

SMITH: And, of course, it sounds like Ernest Gaines, Jr., too. The idea of place and
time.

NAYLOR: That’s a good point.

SMITH: What’s the most important thing you’ve learned about yourself through your
writing?

NAYLOR: I’ve learned that I am a decent kind of a person. And I have the ability to
hang on when all seems dark and miserable. My work is part of me, even though there
may be issues of balance?

SMITH: What do you mean?

NAYLOR: For example, if I am struggling with something, I’ve learned to trust myself
rather than doubting. Trying to balance the two.

SMITH: I find the style of writing in each of your novels different. Is this a plan?

NAYLOR: No, not at all. It’s simple; I have a story to tell and I write it in that voice.

SMITH: Gloria, I’ve noticed a new wave of African-American women authors writing
in the genre of more contemporary romance with a generic-looking book jacket. What
do think?

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NAYLOR: I think it’s wonderful. We [writers] have come before and built a base for
these children to jump and excel. They’re also bringing with them a different type of
experience. For example I, myself, bring the experience of a tenant farmer or
sharecropper’s daughter. Alice Walker writes from the same experience. Toni writes
from the experience of segregated Lorain, Ohio, and working in the steel mills. A lot
of these children don’t have that experience. They are third and fourth generation
middle class. Their mothers graduated from Yale, Harvard and Howard universities,
as their fathers did. Their perspective will be from those experiences. They shouldn’t
be expected to be their parents. And, yes, I’ve heard people say, “oh, that’s not real
black writing because it’s not about the South or oppression.” And I just think that’s
nonsense, because the middle class has changed and they’re bringing their own
experiences. They have a valid voice from those experiences. And that is black
literature, too. People gain comfort in pigeon-holing you. They can pull out that one
box and not have to think anymore about individuality. That’s why I am fascinated
with Tiger Woods. He doesn’t fit into any of the molds. American is slowly going to
have to accept that about black folks.

SMITH: I agree. One of the biggest problems I have in teaching literature, particularly
African-American literature, is that students want nice and tidy packages. Well, life
can be messy. You teach, don’t you?

NAYLOR: I used to, but haven’t done a lot of it lately.

SMITH: What are some of your thoughts about teaching? Do you find it rewarding?

NAYLOR: It can be, depending on how I structure a class. I’ve often said to students
working with them helps me to reinforce my own work and any specific project I am
working on at the time. I see myself as a student as well. I never set up a class with the
notion of here I am the guru and there you are the disciple and I am going to show you
how to do it. I am more interested in a partnership relationship with students in the
classroom. And I say to them, I am as frightened as you are of that blank page each
morning. I cannot tell you how to do it. If God didn’t put it in you, I can’t take it out
of you. But what I can do is offer you a forum whereby you have myself and another
15 pair of eyes and ears. You can tell me where you want to go and I can offer you aid
in getting there. I don’t allow students to berate other students because they happen
to get off on dumping on people. That’s one of my only rules, and I will get you out
of here if that’s what you’re about doing. And understand that while you’re still
picking and choosing classes, because that’s how it will work in this classroom. If you
can’t handle that, go someplace else because I’ll fail you. Having those rules and
trying to foster that attitude has given me a situation in creative writing where I feed
from my students. I never berate students. That approach is useless to me. Tell a blank
page how many books you’ve written. Blank pages don’t care. They say fill me up,
sucker. What have you got to show today? I don’t care about your 15 books or all of
your awards. [Naylor has taught at George Washington, New York, Boston and Cornell
Universities.]

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SMITH: Gloria, what was your experience at Yale University like?

NAYLOR: The graduate programs are different from the undergraduate school. It has
more diversity. There is no assumption that everyone is rich. The program was good,
but I didn’t like New Haven that much. I found it depressing and often had to get out
of town. My initial plan was to get a PhD in American Studies and get a position with
a high class union card. That was my idea of what tenure was. I didn’t have any idea
how long and hard it was to accomplish this. I realized this after my first year of
graduate school. I figured that it could take me as long as 10 years to get a tenured
position, and I didn’t want to put my writing on hold that long.

SMITH: And we thank you. You are probably associated mostly with The Women of
Brewster Place more than any of your other books. I want to say as a professor of
African-American literature that the book has never let me down. Students respond
well to it, especially the beauty and elegance of the language. Did you have any idea
how important it would be to us?

NAYLOR: No, not to folks on the outside, but I knew it was very important to me
because it was the first thing I had started and finished. I had a life of false starts in
ways. A religion that I didn’t finish, a marriage that ended, and there I was putting
myself through college and wondering if I was going to finish that since my track
record wasn’t good.

SMITH: A lot of folks don’t have good track records with marriages. [laughter]

NAYLOR: Well, I didn’t realize that in the 1980s at the time.

SMITH: We’re better off for those failed marriages.

NAYLOR: I know you’re right in my case.

SMITH: And in the case of many women.

NAYLOR: The book was the first thing I completed. And I graduated from college the
same month.

SMITH: You must have been elated.

NAYLOR: Oh, yes. Done it! Got it! Finished it! Mine!

SMITH: How long did it take you to write it?

NAYLOR: One-two years.

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SMITH: Then what happened with the publishing of the novel.

NAYLOR: I finished it under contract.

SMITH: Excuse me.

NAYLOR: Yeah, I had four short stories; we took them to a publisher at Viking Press.
Nobody told me that I wasn’t to take my work to a publisher. Wasn’t that what they
were supposed to do, publish folks’ work? So I took them to the secretary, she read
them, loved them and passed them on to an editor. They called me in and said, “finish
the book.” It was like a fairy tale in a way.

SMITH: About the National Book Award, were you surprised?

NAYLOR: Yes.

SMITH: How did you find out?

NAYLOR: I received a phone call from my editor.

SMITH: You knew it had been nominated?

NAYLOR: Yes. I received that call from my editor about a month earlier. In those days
they’d let you know ahead of time before everyone else knew.

SMITH: How did it affect your writing?

NAYLOR: I still had a blank page in front of me. I was working on Linden Hills, and
I was stuck as to how to get my family from upper to lower Linden Hills. It was very
humbling to receive the award, but I still had a blank page. At one point I thought, here
I was with a National Book Award, you’d think that writing would come easier. But
there I was stuck. You’re no better than your next work.

SMITH: How do your characters come to you?

NAYLOR: Imagination and images. I’ll see a person or a flash of two people doing
something that might seem strange to me. I often go in search of that scene. Like with
Mama Day, very early on I saw a woman carrying a baby through the woods to get to
another house. I had no idea what that meant at the time, but of course, it turned out
to be Bernice carrying her dead baby who was killed during the hurricane. Because the
image stayed with me for a long time, I knew it was important.

SMITH: How do you feel about the film version of The Women of Brewster Place?

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NAYLOR: I think it’s a decent enough job. It’s television and we know how stereotypi-
cal it could have been, but it wasn’t.

SMITH: What are some of your other projects?

NAYLOR: I own a production company and have been trying to get Mama Day in film
for more than 6 years.

SMITH: How is that going?

NAYLOR: There’s some fresh action now. I am reluctant to talk about that project.

SMITH: How did you decide to build a production company?

NAYLOR: I wanted to do something that no one else has been able to do for me, and
that was to find an intra-structure for my work, and other work that I believe in. That
slowly evolved into us doing programs for children. I was asked by Nickelodeon to
write a children’s piece, which I did. Lincoln Center commissioned me to write a play
for grades K-6. Since children are so media-minded, we’re going to have to figure out
a way to get their minds through that medium.

SMITH: What are some of the other projects you’re working on?

NAYLOR: Another theater project called Candy. It’s based on a little girl, Candy, and
her brother who run away from their abusive foster home. They end up the basement
of a paper factory and meet a six-foot rat name Speed. He’s a home-boy rat. The
brother and sister realize that they are not victims and have the power to do something
about their fate. After the piece was commissioned, they changed the artistic director.
You know how that goes. But the rights will revert back to me in August 1997, which
will give me some freedom to work with the piece.

SMITH: Anything else?

NAYLOR: Nothing much. I will write a novel about a religious cult. It will be called
Keepers of the Kingdom.

SMITH: What is it that you want folks to know about you?

NAYLOR: That I try to do decent and honest work.

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