Installation 3

Accessing Your Multidimensional States of Being

Question and Answer Session

Todd: Actually, we're getting a lot of great feedback on states so we'll be doing a lot of
Q&A on states and we got a lot of people on the line. Actually just wanted to
read you one post on our Facebook group. Tam writes in, she says "Guys, I just
finished the optimization of installation number 3. Whhhhhoooooaaa!!" There's
a lot of o's and a's and h's in there. "I feel completely different. My life, all life,
from this view is totally changed. What seemed important and urgent two hours
ago is so far in the distance, so tiny and inconsequential." Pretty cool.

Ken: Oh, that's great. That's terrific.

Todd: Been getting a lot of that.

Ken: Yeah, very cool.

Todd: Good, so the Psychoactive Operating System is in play right now, Ken. We're
really in the middle of some of the real juiciest stuff right now, and we want to
get started. I just want to welcome everybody to today's live Q&A. We have
about an hour with Ken today and we got a lot of questions this week sent to us
on email and in our Facebook group, and it's really exciting so we're going to get
to as many as we can today. Most of them relate to states and how they relate
to the previous installations.

I just want to remind everybody that installation number 4 is coming up on

Thursday night and I know that you're getting a gist of the program now and you
see how it's running, and it feels like it's smoothing out. Again, Thursday night if
you can make the live call. It's really exciting to be on. If not, we'll release the
recordings almost right after and then there is an encore on Saturday morning
that we do for our friends in Europe and for people around the world that want
to come together at the same time to listen to the call. That's how we've been
running it. Ken, thank you again so much for being here. I'd like to get started if
you're ready.

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Ken: You bet, buddy. Glad to be here, glad to have all of the people joining us. Hello,
everybody. I'm sending you all my best and very much looking forward to this.

Todd: Great. The first question, it comes from Raymond, and actually a bunch of
people asked questions like this. He asks "Dear Ken, thank you much for your
kind teaching in the previous modules. I would like to know more about the
relationship between the levels of development and the states of consciousness.
Can you speak about how they relate to one another?" Obviously it's a big
question in terms of how stages relate to the levels that we learned in
installation 1. I hope that we can answer this one as best we can. While honoring
that, there's a bunch of other great questions that we want to get to as well.

Ken: Sure, sure.

Todd: Take it away, Ken.

Ken: This is an important question. The main point is basically this, which is you can
experience virtually any state of consciousness - gross, subtle, causal, witnessing,
non-dual - at virtually any level of consciousness - magic, mythic, rational,
pluralistic, integral, or super-integral. You will interpret that state according to
the level that you're at. That's the key to it. Levels or structures of consciousness
are how we interpret our experience. States are direct experiences. Those will
therefore be interpreted according to our level.

As always, levels are how we interpret any experiences we have, and this
includes states. For example, let's say that a Christian has an experience in the
dream, in a subtle state of a luminous, universal love and bliss, radiant
experience - just radiant light of love. If they're at magic magenta level, which
has an egocentric or self-only perspective, a first person perspective, they would
think that they and they alone are capable of this experience. They might even
see this blazing light as being Jesus Christ himself.

At its extreme egocentric version, they would feel that they themselves alone
are Jesus Christ. In other words, this is very close to a psychotic break. It's still a
subtle state and that's actually one of the things that orthodox psychology
doesn't understand well about psychotic breaks, is that there's a strange mixture
of subtle states in ordinary gross reality. The psychotic knows the subtle state is
real and in that sense it is, but they're experiencing it through a very limited
perspective as in this case, so it causes a lot of problems.

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 If, however, let's say the person having this experience is at an amber mythic
literal level; that has an ethnocentric perspective, a second person perspective,
so it's group-oriented, and if they see this light as Jesus Christ, he would be the
savior of their chosen group - their ethnocentric group, namely the people who
have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior. That's what this light is here
doing. It's here to save people that have accepted Jesus as their personal savior.
Nobody else can be saved, enlightened, or liberated - only these chosen people
who have accepted Christ. That's ethnocentric amber mythic literal
interpretation of the same state.

If on the other hand, let's say the person is at a worldcentric orange; this is
worldcentric third person universal perspective. They will see Jesus Christ as
being a world teacher along with other world teachers like Buddha or a
Muhammad, or Shakra, or so on. All of those teachers are genuine but this
person feels a special affinity with Jesus and so this dream is for them an
example of Jesus speaking directly to them, although any number of other
teachers could be doing the same kind of thing.

Incidentally, Vatican II actually adopted this view; that is the Catholic Church
officially recognized that "A comparable salvation can be found in other
religions." That's a huge shift for the Catholic Church from ethnocentric - we
have the one and only way - to worldcentric: other religions can offer
comparable salvation. That's a huge shift. The next two popes did everything
they could to reverse that, but it's still official dogma of the Catholic Church.
They moved enormously from ethnocentric to worldcentric, which is extremely
important for all world religions to do.

Just from those examples, you can see that you can actually be at virtually any
level and experience virtually any state, but you'll interpret the state according
to the views of that level. We just saw magenta egocentric and amber
ethnocentric and orange worldcentric and how the very same experience was
interpreted in very, very different ways. This is basically why it's important to
both grow up and wake up. Grow up means moving to higher levels and waking
up means moving to higher states.

What we've found out is that those are two different sequences. You can
develop through either one of those relatively independently. You can be highly
developed in one, poorly developed in the other. What we need is both. We

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 want to both grow up and wake up, so that's the crucial item that we take from
this.

Todd: Beautiful. Thanks Ken for being so clear and concise on it. I think it really makes
sense. Let's continue on. The next question regarding states, Iris writes in and
she asks "Is it possible, although one feels the wholeness of the universe, he or
she also feels his tininess. Feeling whole on one side and scattered in his
fundamental particles on the other side. Is the oneness feeling mutually
contradictory?"

Ken: The non-dual state transcends all opposites so you're both or neither. One and
many, infinite and finite, emptiness and form, nirvana and samsara,
transcendent and eminent, eternal and temporal. The reason it's called non-
dual, and the reason it's said that you can't get at it conceptually - you have to
experience it directly - is that any concepts you form like infinite, or emptiness,
or eternal, it only makes sense in terms of its opposite concept. It's good vs. evil,
and pleasure vs. pain, and up vs. down, and in vs. out, and on and on and on and
on.

This individual is talking about two opposites of the same polarity. In a sense,
this non-dual experience can be defined as either including both or transcending
both or not getting caught in either one. It's a both/and attitude, not an
either/or attitude. You can have an experience that's both infinitely whole and
infinitesimally tiny. The Upanishads say enlightenment is free of the pairs. That
means the pairs of opposites - all of them, including this one.

Todd: Got it.

Ken: There it is.

Todd: Beautiful, thank you. Yeah, there it is. Good. I'm just trying to wrap it, soak in it,
because it's crosstalk 00:10:27] deep. Solangia writes in, she asks a question; we
had a couple of questions like this. "Does partaking of entheogens, I.e.
ayahuasca, peyote, assist in going through these states faster?"

Ken: Entheogens do seem to have a capacity to initially open many people to higher
states and if you look at Stan Grof's research for example, there are examples of
individuals under particularly high doses of LSD having experiences of pretty
much every major higher state that you can find described in the world's

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 contemplative and meditative literature, all the way up to emptiness and non-
dual union. That does seem to be a possibility for the initial awakening.

The difficulty is that if you use only those substances as a means of spiritual
growth, beyond the initial awakening, that doesn't seem to work very well.
Instead, people just seem to get burned out, their eyes get dark and kind of
deadened, they seem to lose vitality and enthusiasm for life - sort of the
opposite of what's intended. Initial awakenings, or occasional experiences after
that, tend to work just fine, but relying on them is usually counterproductive.
With very few exceptions, everybody I know who has done well with drugs
combine them with meditation or contemplation or some other spiritual
practice. Those who didn't do that did very poorly, actually. That's the short of it
and it seems to be fairly consistent.

Todd: Right, so really just as more of a tool that can help reach certain states, and then
avoiding any type of either addiction or whatever might come with the use of
the entheogens or drugs, right? That's really where we see the danger.

Ken: Exactly, as far as we know even neuronal damage. That's not take some sort of
fundamentalist, bible-thumping view. These are very powerful substances and
they cause a lot of oxidation at the nerve endings. Oxidation damages tissue; it
just does. One of the reasons that just this repeated large doses of these
substances seem to start having the opposite effect, is that they actually damage
the nerve tissues that they originally stimulate.

You get the hit, same if you do cocaine actually, or almost any of these really
powerfully state-altering substances. They have this capacity to oxidize tissue
that they're next to and that particularly means neuronal tissue. They're actually
damaging the parts of the brain that give them these positive highs initially. As
they start to damage that issue, then they have to take more and more to get
the same effect, and more and more tissue gets damaged. Pretty soon they just
sort of run out of tissue to damage. Then it's very unpleasant, actually.

Todd: Got it. Okay, great. Makes sense. Let's go to the next question. Mark writes in
and he asks "This question relates to states and negative emotions or suffering.
Could Ken speak about how our experience of suffering changes or not in
relation to the different states?"

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Ken: Sure. Suffering is ... I was just checking a few notes here. Suffering seems almost
directly related to the depth of state experience, and in a sense inversely. The
gross state and realm is the lowest and densest state. Suffering seems to be the
highest there. There's just the separate self sense, the self-contraction, the ego -
and the ego is a suffering machine. The ego doesn't have suffering; it is suffering.
The same process that produces suffering, which is self-contraction or self-
tensing, produces the ego. In the subtle, the self-contraction relaxes a bit and
expands somewhat, and the ego moves into the soul. There's a deeper sense of
presence and spirit, and suffering correspondingly tends to unwind and
diminishes somewhat.

As you get into the causal witnessing, one's capacity for non-attached witnessing
or non-attached awareness has become very strong. Although sensitivity has
actually increased, you will feel everything more intensely including pain - but
you can let go of it. You can drop it. What we say here is that it hurts more but
bothers you less. It's kind of like good news/bad news, but it does bother you
less; it's less suffering-y.

Finally, at the non-dual ultimate state, in that state itself suffering tends to drop
off almost entirely. Not pain, you'll still feel pain - but not suffering. The reason is
suffering pain plus contracting against it or avoiding it - pain plus the self-
contraction. The self-contraction is exactly what's missing in the non-dual state
because you've let go of the separate self itself.

You no longer exist on this side of your face looking at the world out there. You
are one with that world, with everything that is arising. You no longer see the
mountain; you are the mountain. You no longer look at the clouds; you are the
clouds. You no longer feel the Earth; you are the Earth. You're not looking at the
room you're in now either; you're not in the room; the room is in you. It is arising
in your awareness.

Right where your head used to be the room is arising. It's sitting right where
your head was on your shoulders as your awareness. There's no subject and no
object here, just the present experience arising just as it is - which is one with
you, arising as your awareness. Again, you're not in the room; the room is in you.
If you can get to that perspective and you're seeing the world from big self, from
big mind, in which all things arise within it just as the room is arising within your
awareness.

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 There's no other out there; there's no separate self in here, no object out there.
There are entities arising but they are arising as you, a texture of your own self.
Out there in a sense is in here. In here feels like what out there feels like. They're
one and the same feeling. You don't feel the present moment twice. There's not
a subject experience and then an obj experience. There's just the present
experience and you are that. There's no subject vs. object duality; there's no
other. You're not separate from anything that's arising; you are everything that's
arising, including pain.

You no longer contract away from pain. It's just a sensation like any other arising
moment to moment. Because you don't contract against it, you don't convert it
to suffering. It's just pain, a sensation of warm energy, nothing more. There's no
suffering and there's no fear either. The Upanishads say where there is other,
there is fear. There is no other here. You are one with everything that's arising.
You are one with every other.

It ceases to be an other. It's no longer outside of your awareness; it's in your

awareness. It's just another texture of your real self. Nothing arises outside of
you so there is no other, there is no fear. There's nothing outside of you that can
hurt you. There's nothing outside of you that can smash into you and cause you
suffering. No suffering, no fear, no grasping in this state - just pure, non-dual
presence, moment to moment. That is the ultimate non-dual state.

That's a general rundown of how they tend to fit in with suffering, and as I say, it
seems to a bit of an inverse relationship. The higher, deeper, the state, the less
the suffering. Pain is still present but it bothers you less.

Todd: Wow, really beautiful. Thank you so much for it. Thank you for taking us back
into that exercise, as well, of getting us into that state, which was such a valuable
piece to the module that went live. We had a lot of comments on it and it just
feels like this part of the Psychoactive Operating System, the map as it relates to
the pain and suffering that we feel as humans, and seeing how we can almost
transcend through the pain and have a different relationship to it through
learning about states is really promising and encouraging for a lot of us. Thank
you.

Actually it relates a little bit to the next question. Ni writes, and Ni, I don't think
that's a person's name, that's just how they're positioning themselves. They say
"My question is more general as it pertains to the whole felt experience of the

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 training and way of seeing the world. One of my challenges is getting really
energized with this awakening and not necessarily knowing what to do with it.
The energy can sometimes feel overwhelming."

Ken: This is a good question because it has directly to do with how we should be
relating to the energy that's in our organism in general, including subtle energy.
Subtle energy is the energy that in addition to gross physical energy of
electromagnetism and strong-weak nuclear and gravitational and so on - those
are all gross physical energies. There's also subtle energies. These are the
energies, for example that traverse the various shakras, that are behind a
person's aura, their biofield, and so on.

There are various ways that we've increasingly learned to measure some of
these subtle fields. There's actually an entire field of Western medicine now
called energy medicine that deals with these subtle energies. The idea is that as
spirit manifests itself in the universe, it steps out of its non-dual stance and it
steps down into the causal domain, which is the first forms of manifestation.
Those are reduced forms of spirit. Spirit is stepping down, sedimenting,
crystallizing, into reduced forms, and the Greeks called these archetypes. Those
causal archetypes again reduce and step down into subtle forms. Those subtle
forms reduce and step down into gross forms.

That whole process is called involution. Plotinus called it e-flux. When it steps
down into that gross physical level, the big bang blows into existence and the big
bang of course is just the material universe. There's no life with the big bang,
there's no mind, there are no spiritually realized organisms - just insentient
matter. That matter has in it the potential of all these higher states, because
those are enfolded into it as spirit involved downward to produce the manifest
realm.

This matter begins the reverse process of unfolding or evolving. Involution gives
rise to evolution, and in evolution these successively higher, wider, deeper
realms open up and become available and the universe becomes more and more
sensitive, more and more complex, more and more whole, and evolves at higher
and higher and higher levels of being and awareness on its way back to its
realization as spirit itself.

Human beings, as such, are about halfway up that scale, but any human alive can
awaken all the way to the top of that unfolding sequence by having an

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 enlightenment, an awakening, a satori experience, a metanoia, a realization, a
remembrance of their own true self in the non-dual state of awareness.

What's happening is that, in addition to these gross energies and the gross
consciousness that goes with it, there's a whole spectrum of subtle energies and
subtle states of consciousness that go with it. We need to learn as we are
contacting these higher and subtler states, what to do with the energy that tends
to come with them.

There's a very simple practice but it's also central. It comes from Taoist tradition
- T-a-o - and is related to a fundamental circuit of the subtle energy in the body:
it's called a microcosmic orbit. The way that works, and the exercise for dealing
with that is, that you start by imagining right above your head, over your crown,
an infinite source of light that is just radiant in all directions, all the way to
infinity, and is full of love and bliss and happiness and care and joy and
knowledge, and basically all the good things that you can think of are rolled into
this radiant, infinite, luminous light.

On the in breath, you will breath that light down into the top of your head, down
the front of your body, down your throat, down your chest, into your stomach.
You breath that light all the way into your belly so that your stomach becomes
full of that. It appears as the energy, at that point, of life. Light comes down into
life. Furthest downward current, which will come with your in breath as you
breath in. That light comes down and converts into life energy.

Make sure your mouth is closed and your tongue is touching the roof of your
mouth, so that that circuit is closed and the energy can actually get down the
front of your face. If you keep your mouth open it tends to be a break and the
energy has a hard time getting down. Breath it down into your stomach, into
your belly, into life, and then all the way down to the base of your spine.

Then on the out breath, as you breath out, let that energy go up your spine to
your head, then out of the top of your head, out of your crown, and return back
to light above your head. That's the fundamental circuit that you want to
visualize and you want to do it at least for five minutes. You can do it particularly
in the morning when you wake up and right before you go to bed. Then
randomly a few breath cycles throughout the day.

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 The particular point that this gentleman raises about having a lot of energy being
released is, whenever something like that happens, whenever you feel a lot of
energy in your body, just imagine that energy being part of that light above your
head. All energy in your body originally comes from that light as it enters your
body. Just imagine all of that energy up there. Then breathe that light down,
again, into your crown, the top of your head, down the front of your face, mouth
closed. Down your throat, down your chest, and into your stomach. There it
converts to the energy of life.

Then to the base of your spine, and then on your out breath, up your spine - of
course, it will be going through all seven shakras when it does that - to the top of
your head and then back to this infinite source of light and released there. What
you'll actually start to feel as you breath out is just a releasing your awareness to
infinity. You'll actually start to feel like your own being is expanding to infinity.
Just on the out breath it's just woooosh all the way to infinity.

Do that circle of awareness down the front, up the back, down the front, up the
back coordinated with breathing. In breath, out breath, in breath, out breath.
Put all energy that you have into that circuit and plug it in so it's actually getting
hooked up between those two poles to an infinite, in a sense, heavenly light, and
vital earthly life. Heavenly light to earthly life. It's hooking those two poles
together energetically and completing the circuit between them so that you're
not either too transcendently oriented towards just heaven or too eminently
oriented towards just Earth - but are balancing these two poles of existence with
the subtle energy current that connects them.

In the Hindu and Buddhist traditions this subtle energy is known as prana, and in
the Christian tradition it's essentially the Holy Spirit. All of the traditions
recognize these subtle energy currents one way or another. In Buddhism, as just
on example, there is at least three bodies that Buddha has and this is called a
Trikaya, the three body doctrine. They are, of course, gross, subtle, and causal
bodies.

The gross body is called the nirmanakaya - the form body. Kaya means body;
nirmana is form. The highest one is dharmakaya. Dharma is truth, ultimate
reality; and kaya, again, body. The central one, the one in between, is
sambhogakaya, and that's a subtle state. It's sometimes referred to as the
transformational state because what it's doing is ... I could give an extremely
brief, thirty second historical backdrop here.

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 When some of these early founding figures such as Christ or Buddha, when they
were alive announced themselves to be one with ultimate reality. When they
died, the question came up: where did that ultimate reality go? Surely it didn't
die with the teacher because that would mean ultimate reality is dead. Virtually
all of the traditions in their own way developed these distinctions between an
ultimate reality and a manifest version of that.

The nirmanakaya was the actual Gautama Buddha. In the Christian Trinity, it's
the actual Jesus Christ, the historical Jesus of Nazareth, as Gautama Buddha was
the historical nirmanakaya. The truth that Buddha realized was the dharmakaya:
pure emptiness, pure nature, pure ultimate non-dual spirit. Just as the reality
that Jesus realized was God the father, God the mother.

What allowed that realization, what connected the nirmanakaya - the gross
physical being - to the dharmakaya - the ultimate radical spiritual being - was the
sambhogakaya, the subtle body, the subtle energy. What connected Jesus to
God was the holy spirit. Traditionally, in a lot of the early Christian meetings a
flame will descend on their heads or the saints are shown with halos of light
around their head, and so on. All of that's representing these bands of subtle
energy that the human organism has.

They do indeed connect us from our present, small self, to our ultimate true self
- our highest self, ultimate reality, ultimate spirit itself. That allows us to be both
this separate, individual, conventional self - which we all are - and to be one with
this ultimate spirit, this ultimate self, which is unborn and undying. When
Gautama died his nirmanakaya died but his dharmakaya didn't. When Jesus died,
Jesus of Nazareth died but God the father, the holy spirit, and the realized, in a
sense, soul of Jesus, the Christ consciousness - those didn't die.

All of the traditions around the world came up with that kind of solution to that
troubling problem of when their teacher that taught ultimate reality died, did
the ultimate die. The answer of course all of them came up with was no. This is
the reason why. When today we actually have various scientific experiments and
data showing the reality of this bio-energy, then of course that just leads us to
believe even more in these original traditional notions of the relation of
individuals to the ultimate reality, and can help us orient ourselves in our own
quest for the ultimate reality - that true self, or big mind, or ultimate spirit.

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 The microcosmic orbit is simply one major circuit that connects that ultimate,
highest reality with our earthbound, individual, physical selves. We are both, and
it's important that we realize both. Most people of course just realize the small
self and not the big self. That's what we work with when we attempt to wake up.

Todd: Wow, Ken. Just want to really take a moment and thank you for much for
agreeing to do these live Q&A calls because we're getting so much value out of
this and new stuff. Our team sat with you for months recording the course, and
just like what we're getting here is surprising us. It's just so relevant to what
we're going through as we're going through these modules and installations. It's
just really, really beautiful. New practices, new exercises, that we'll share with
everybody, and just thank you.

Ken: Great, great.

Todd: The next question comes from Mary and I'm going to read it. It's a little bit
longer and it has to do with relationships. People are now starting to get the
installations of the OS here and they're applying it in their lives and asking
questions about various components. It's good.

She writes in, she says "The relationships between men and women appear to be
all over the map. In first tier, men and women choose relationships aligning with
personality ego types. However, when moving into second tier, where the
grownup personality is now open to emerging his or her higher soul self to
operate their all grown up personality, do you feel we now become more aware
of finding a relationship where each soul seeks to use the relationship for higher
service and for also bringing the source field of greater spirit through their
soulful relationship? Is this how higher consciousness becomes aware of itself,
through the other higher consciousness? I would love your expansion on this."

Ken: In short, the answer is yes. I want to give just a little bit of nuance to that figure
and bring in the importance that both levels and states have to do with
relationships. It's not just a matter of getting to first tier to second tier. That's
important and that helps, but we also have to get certain state realizations
because states tend to cover, again, how much we have awakened - how much
we have in the process of waking up, how much of that we've done. People have
very, very different takes on relationship and reality in general depending on the
degree of depth of their state realization.

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 We just want to remember that we can have a higher state experience including
ultimate spirit or big mind at virtually any level including first tier levels. A couple
could be at, for example, green: pluralistic, post-modern, multicultural - and
have an experience with big mind. If that happens, then the relationship
becomes concerned with how to best share and embrace this ultimate big mind
reality. That would be a very profound and, in some cases, overwhelming
experience.

Of course they'll interpret it in green terms but it will still be big mind. Just as you
can, for example, be in a dream state and experience all sorts of different items
or events or images or experiences, but it's still the same dream state. It's the
same with big mind state. You can be in the big same big mind state and yet
you'll interpret it differently according to the tools you have to interpret
anything with. That means the levels of consciousness that you have, because
that's actually how we think. The language we have, the perspectives we have,
the cognitive apparatus that we have: those will be determined by our level of
development.

This state, if they had a big mind state experience, this would include at virtually
any level - although be interpreted differently those levels - but it would include
some sort of sense of interconnectedness, the need for service, a kind of loving
kindness for as many people as possible. Of course, the thing with levels is that
the amount of love and loving kindness you have gets greater and greater and
greater with higher levels. You might remember that Carol Gilligan, for example,
outlines the four major stages of female care, passive for women to love and
care about the people surrounding them. She had four major states, which are of
course variations on egocentric, ethnocentric, worldcentric, and integral.

Her first stage she called selfish. The woman can care only for herself; that of
course is the egocentric stage. The second stage she called care, because the
woman can start to care for others. This is a group; she can care for the family or
perhaps the clan or the tribe or even the whole nation in a certain sense, and in
some cases care for people in the same religion - everybody who accepts her
religion are her brothers and sisters and she cares for them. Anybody outside of
the group, she doesn't care for them.

That happens at the third stage, which Gilligan called universal care - in other
words, worldcentric. There the woman cares for all humans regardless of race,
color, sex, or creed. The highest stage is integral, which integrates all of them.

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 Depending on which level of those you're at will determine how much love you
have to share when you have a big mind experience. Big mind will say be loving,
but if you're in egocentric you'll only love yourself. If you're at ethnocentric you'll
only love your group. If you're at worldcentric, you'll love all humans. If you're at
integral, you'll love all sentient beings.

Both of those are important. Having these state experience like big mind,
extremely important, because that is in some sense a waking up to what
ultimate reality is. That ultimate reality can only fit into the tools that it has, the
room that it's given when it descends into your being. That depends on the level
you're at and the perspectives that you can take.

That green couple that has a big mind experience will be able to experience love
for virtually all human beings. They might have their own particular chosen
group and then they would actually narrow their scope to that group - but they
have the potential for loving all humans. Certainly somebody at second tier can
also have a big mind and experience. At that point they would be integral or
integrating all of these various capacities. That would be an extremely expanded
sense and capacity for love and care, expanding to essentially all sentient beings.

Indeed, at third tier, an experience a loving oneness with all of the universe, with
all of reality. They can also be at second tier and be atheistic because they might
still just be at a gross, ground orientation. They'll still look holistically upon
everything they're aware of in that gross realm, but it will only be in that gross
realm. It won't include subtle, causal, and non-dual. The spirituality component
that a couple are sharing will primarily depend on their state experience. Each
level will become more holistic, more whole, but each state becomes more
spiritual - and your spirituality will mostly depend on your state.

In terms of spirituality, that's mostly reflected in the couple's state experience.

The relationship will express their degree of these spiritual experiences, and it
will express their level of development which will determine how they actually
interpret their spiritual experiences. A couple at let's say amber mythic will share
a fundamentalist belief in the one and only true religion they both share. They
might even become missionaries to take their mythic beliefs to the undeveloped
world.

If they're at second tier and they experience non-dual big mind, then they'll
understand that all humans, indeed all sentient beings, possess this infinite big

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 mind as their true self. This couple's relationship will share and express that
realization. They'll probably even practice together and help each other
recognize big mind or true spirit in everything that's arising.

What I just wanted to add here, in addition to what this person suggests, is that
both levels - mythic, rational, pluralistic, integral - and states - subtle, causal,
non-dual - will govern the exact relationship between partners in any couple.
Particularly as you get to higher levels and higher states, a relationship becomes
the way that you express and share a higher reality, a higher self, a higher spirit -
and how it reflects itself in human togetherness. The relationship becomes a
profound and deeply satisfying manifestation of this higher reality.

One last thing. There's a gentleman by the name of Martin Ucik, U-c-i-k, who
wrote a book based on the [inaudible 00:47:57] the model on relationships. It's
simply referred to as physical relationships. He went through each of the main
dimensions that we'll be covering in this course, because he was using this
model, and essentially wrote a bit of a handbook for how couples can get along if
they're at ... Depending on where they are in each of these five areas.

He basically found - and the only point I'll emphasize at this point anyway is that
in couples that were at different degrees of development, in four of the five
areas could still basically make a go of it. If they emphasized different lines of
development, that tended to be okay. If they were coming from different
quadrants, as we'll examine at one point, that tended to be okay. Even different
states - that was okay. There was just one sentence that introduced you, he said
"If, however, there are different levels of development - sorry." That's all he says.

The point was that levels are so important in terms of how we interpret things,
including how we interpret our state experience that we've been investigating
recently, that that can really be a deal breaker when it comes to a relationship
working. One of the things that you really do want to try and keep a good eye
out on is similarity in altitudes, similarity in levels of development. If those are
similar, then you'll tend to interpret the other dimensions in an at least vaguely
similar way and you have something in common.

If those are different you'll interpret everything differently. Sooner or later you'll
just drive each other crazy. Keep that in mind, and then of course as much as you
can add the other dimensions and make that a part of your relationship,
certainly the better that is. That certainly goes for stage and spiritual

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 development. That should become a very, very important ingredient in a
couple's relationship.

Todd: Thanks, Ken, and it really relates to some comments that we've been getting and
emails about how learning this operating system and learning about the
psychoactive map is beginning to alter or shift relationships that people are
having whether romantic or not, just in terms of people that aren't on the
psychoactive map path. It's one of those things that I'm sure is going to be
coming up particularly as we get to the application modules and we start really
grounding in some of the practice oriented things of these five core installations.
That's definitely something that I encourage people to continue to ask about in
these Q&A sessions because this is the real world stuff that comes up as we're
learning this stuff. We've all been through it; I continue to go through it
personally and it's definitely where the rubber meets the road, so thank you for
that explanation.

I hope here that we have time for one more at least. I want to have Sarah who
wrote in and she asks "First off, Ken, thanks for a truly transformative course.
The way it is simplifying my understanding by giving much more complexity is
breathtaking. It is changing the way I think, feel, and work. The question comes
from Niko, my husband, who asks 'Ken said that Buddhism started in a society
where orange was the highest level reached so far and that at the time of Christ,
amber was the highest level. Does this mean that the civilization in which
Buddha lived was more advanced although it was earlier?'"

Ken: It wasn't actually that the society Buddha lived in was orange. Buddha himself
was orange. The culture was red to amber. Christ also was in a red to amber
society but he also, like Buddha, reached orange himself. The fact that they were
at a higher level than most of those around them was part of what made them
so fascinating to the people of that time. They were pushing from local
ethnocentric truths to universal world-centric truths, and talking about a reality
that was present universally, everywhere, and not just in this or that group of
humans, but in all humans - even all sentient beings.

One of the reason Buddhism caught on so fast in India, for example, is that he
included the Untouchables in those that he would teach. No other teacher in
India would do that so the Untouchables were essentially left on the side to rot.
With this new teaching they could all start to practice and achieve their own
degree of awakening. It rapidly spread through India to get started with because

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 all the Untouchables were adopting it. It was a really sort of outrageous
expansion.

Of course both were ... This was the center of their actual spiritual teachings and
practices. They were both pushing into higher states. They especially both
pushed into the unqualifiable, empty witness, or I am-ness. For Christ that was a
transcendent kingdom not of this world. For Buddha it was nirvana entirely
removed from the samsara of this world. In both cases there was room to
expand into a non-dual realization. In both cases that happened down the road.

In the West for example, Plotinus pushed into a non-dual reality. Many Christian
mystics started interpreting their experiences in what's called a neo-platonic way
because of doing it the way Plotinus was doing it. In the East, the early
Theravadan or so-called Hinayana school of Buddhism that recommended you
get into nirvana and out of samsara - you leave all samsara behind - gave way to
Mahanaya Buddhism that was non-dual, that included nirvana and samsara -
emptiness and form. In fact, as the Heart Sutra put it, that which is emptiness is
not other than form. That which is form is not other than emptiness. That's a
true, non-dual realization and in a sense it made the universe whole. It wasn't
just taking half of it, the unmanifest nirvana side, and ditching the entire rest of
it, which in a sense both of these early versions did.

They both also moved into orange. They presented their teachings in essentially
very straightforward, very rational ways. There's very little mythic orientations
and a lot of these are the rules for getting along well with your fellow humans,
and Christ's sermon on the mount, the meek shall inherit the Earth, and so on.
These are very rational, pragmatic statements. Of course Buddha had no gods or
goddesses in his system at all. His was much more a psychology. It was just
practice this, do this, and you will get into this state. In this state you will be
completely free of not only suffering but pain.

That's because the state was a state of unmanifest absorption. This is similar to
deep dreamless sleep. In deep dreamless sleep there's no self, there's no body,
there's no pain, there's no suffering, there's no desire. That's how Buddhism can
have all of those you get into a state where there's no pain, no suffering, no
pleasure, no up, no down, nothing - just like deep dreamless sleep that we all go
into every night.

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 Mystics who are sensitive to that actually remain very subtly aware in the
dreamless state and they maintain it's an infinite consciousness, a radical
spiritual awareness. It's just most people get in it and then forget it when they
come out of it because they haven't developed to a point where their awareness
can expand to that degree. They go into it, pass out, come out of it, and don't
remember it. If you ask them how they slept, they'll say "I slept fine."

This is what we saw with what's called the great axial religions, which is virtually
all of the major religions today - Christianity, Buddhism, some of the influential
forms of Hinduism and Taoism, and so on - all came about roughly in the First
Millennia B.C.E., particularly right around 600 B.C.E. They have tended to remain
some of the most influential of the great traditions.

Many of them, however, got stuck at the mythic literal level, which is in essence
really kind of disastrous for spiritual intelligence because that's at best about half
way up the developmental scale of spiritual intelligence. There are many higher
levels of spiritual intelligence than the mythic literal. Yet, most fundamentalist
remain stuck at that whether they're Pure Land Buddhists or mythic Hindus or
strict believers in the Talmud, or Christian fundamentalists.

That has been one of the major problems with getting religion accepted in the
modern and post-modern world. It's that cognition and aesthetics and morals
and all the other lines went from amber into orange, into green, and are pushing
into second tier. Spiritual line went from archaic to magic to mythic and it got
stuck there. That's where it's remained in many cases. Of course the next level of
orange, particularly orange science, is going to be arguing with amber religion all
the time, because amber religion is a major stage behind where human
consciousness has grown.

They're presenting truths as they were understood at the same time that it was
thought that the Earth really was flat, that slavery was a natural part of nature,
that women were second-class citizens if citizens at all. All of those were part of
the truth package that you got 2,000 years ago, including the sciences of 2,000
years ago was bloodletting and leeches and shit. Nothing exactly modern about
science back then either. There wasn't much modern about religion back then
either, either.

That's been a problem and one of the major things we're looking to do is get the
religions at least into orange world-centric. They will therefore stop the belief

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 that their path and their path only is real, and being the source of religious
warfare and Jihad and terrorism and on and on and on and on. All of those are
cases of arrest development. They're stopping at a level of consciousness that
was common 2,000 years ago but is common today only in the child from age 7
to 10. Yet we have adults that are at that level preaching that level and believing
at that level - and it's scary.

Todd: Yeah, it's scary but also it's promising that we're learning this and we're actually
shining a light on it

Ken: Absolutely.

Todd: So we transcend and include as you teach us to get to these higher levels, and
that's what's so promising. Ken, we're at the end of our hour and before I let you
go and say goodbye, I just want to remind everybody to go onto our member
platform and go through any of the installations or modules that you haven't yet
and we'll be releasing this Q&A on there as well, so you miss any piece of it you
won't have to miss it because we will have it posted on the platform.

This coming Thursday it's installation number 4 and then the next Thursday's
installation number 5. This Thursday is types, which is going to be amazing, and
then we get to the final installation, which many people consider to be the most
mind-blowing one out of all of them: what we call quadrants or dimensions. You
really won't want to miss that one that really caps the core primary components
of the program.

Then we, again, start going into the application modules. That's where we're at
right now in the program and Ken, just again, so much gratitude and love in my
heart and our hearts for your generosity of getting on the phone with us every
week to answer our questions on these components. It's just so clear the way
that you're able to take us through them and we're really starting to get it. Just
so appreciative and love you, man. Really do.

Ken: Love to all of you on this call. I am delighted that we're able to be walking down
this path together and sharing these insights as we go along. It makes me feel
wonderful that people are really getting something out of it and finding it useful
in their lives. It just makes all of the work that I do completely worthwhile and
I'm actually very grateful to everybody who's with us. Thanks to everybody for
this.

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Todd: Have a great week, my friend. We'll be in touch and we'll be on the phone next
week same time.

Ken: Okay, buddy. Much love. Bye bye.

Todd: Night, brother. You too. Bye, Ken.

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