Transcript, BBC Sounds podcast.

‘Analysis: Can the Met police change‘

(Broadcast 27 March 2023)

Tonight, at 10, the Metropolitan Police is in deep Crisis accused of systemic abuse against
both staff and the public, the UK's biggest police force finds itself castigated in an official
review where institutional racism, misogyny and for homophobia the force has been reeling
from a series of scandals in recent years, including the abduction, rape and murder of Sarah
Everard in 2021 by a serving officer, Wayne Cousins.

In March 2021, the murder of Sarah average shocked the nation not just because her ******
and murderer was a police officer.

It also prompted criticism of the Mets internal culture and organization, and many people
were dismayed by the subsequent policing of a high profile vigil.
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This mix of rage, criticism and sorrow revealed an increasing level of distrust in London's
police service.
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A searing report by Baroness Casey has found that Scotland Yard is corrupted with
institutional racism, misogyny and homophobia.
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Sir Mark Crowley, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, has accepted the findings
and the systemic failings, but he does refuse to accept that the problems are institutional.
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I accept her diagnosis about the racism, misogyny, homophobia in the organization, and also
that we have these systemic failings and failings of cultural failings.
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I understand her use of the term institutional.

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It's not term I use myself to get to the bottom of the problem.
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In February 2022, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick appointed Baroness
Louise Casey to investigate and report on the culture and standards of the Metropolitan
Police, and it was inherited by the current Commissioner.
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Sir Mark Rowley, well, what I found as I started lifting stones is too many cases where
problematic individuals are still in the organization and we're working through that.
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We're spending more.

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Officers, we're moving more office and organization more quickly.

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I'm Margaret Heffernan.

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I've spent over a decade studying institutional failure.

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Why do organizations that once inspired respect and trusts suddenly lose them?
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How is it that deep seated problems take so long to be noticed, and what does it take to
repair them?
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In this analysis program, I'm going to continue that inquiry and ask can the Metropolitan
Police change?
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We'll absolutely termed to tackle this.

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On Furnace, Louise Casey of Blackstock.

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And I've been doing a review into culture and standards in the Metropolitan Police.
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Louise Casey has form when it comes to addressing complex issues of public concern.
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What's so striking about her work and this report into the Met in particular is that it isn't full
of management jargon and abstract nouns.
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She understands that when failure on a large scale occurs, the heart of the matter is the
people.

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Essentially, it is their officers and their staff that we have listened to and we have borne
witness to and provided the evidence from both in terms of personal testimony, but also in
terms of the way we've gathered the data.
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So I just think it opens it up in a very different way.
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You know, these things are always, aren't they about trying to fix something and you're really
in danger of trying to fix a machine rather than see the humanity of what the machine is
actually there to to sort, to fix, and to help.
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So you're in a world where you're talking about strategies and turn around plans and indices
and metrics, and there's just a danger that you forget what it's here for, which is humanity.
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When big organizations fail, the wilful blindness narrative is almost always the same.
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At first, nobody knew.

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Kathy Hartley
Then a few people knew.
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Then it turns out that, well, everyone knew it's a phenomenon you might recognize from
your own life.
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The problem isn't a few so called bad apples.

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The heart of the matter is collusion.

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Everyone's sees the problems, but nobody attends to them.

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This sense of everybody in this organization is good.

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We've just got one or two that aren't a sort of defensiveness that you know, Fortress met in
this example that, you know, draws up the bridges and closes down on itself.
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The more criticism it gets, the casing report is an astonishing, exhaustive document,
something every aspect of how the Metropolitan Police functions day by day, person to
person.
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It's so thorough and so rigorous that the news cycle doesn't fully capture the scale of its
inquiry, driven by an urgent commitment to change.
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What you need is the entire organization, the body of the organization, to take responsibility
for change and to understand it and to take responsibility for it.
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That if it's left to, you know this the the leaders as people call themselves nowadays, they're
essentially will be lost.
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Accepting the report is one thing, but the met is the people who work for it.
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Can they be changed?

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Does recruitment need an overhaul?

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The one that really makes my hair stand on end is they're sort of recruitment and vetting,
essentially.
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Let's anyone in to some degree.

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So you actually do allow police officers in within decent exposure on their record or
allegations of domestic abuse on their record, and you'll still let them in.
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Now what century are we operating in?

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But problems with recruiting have been long understood by those outside the service.
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Rick Muir is director of the Police Foundation, an independent policing think tank.
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The kind of questions that we have in the vetting process don't really tease out those things.
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So I think you've also got to look at other things as well.

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Like you know, doing face to face interviews with people so that you can really understand
their character, you know, talking to previous partners to identify if people have been
abusive, you know, looking at social media behavior.
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Stuff that isn’t typically done in vetting, I think also needs to be done.
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Did that mean there aren't things to face interviews?

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Yeah, very often they're not to face to face interviews now.

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Yeah, very often people are getting through largely on the sort of digital process.
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Even if you get the right people, they still need training.
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But during the years of austerity, the Casey Review tells how the Hendon Police College was
sold and training outsourced.
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Much is now self service, which largely means watching PowerPoint slides.
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50% of the the detectives that are doing child abuse investigations have not been on the
advanced Child Abuse Investigation training 50% that you know they don't collect central
records for what training people have been on or not been on their promotion process
largely means that they write their own annual assessments that and actually they've only
got those annual assessments for about 20% of the entire workforce on on as much as his
inspector of Constabulary.
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And I'm the inspector that concentrates on the Nepalese.

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Police constable being supervised by an acting not confirmed Sergeant being supervised by
an acting, not confirmed Inspector.
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The prevalence of that is much greater than anybody would wish it to be, and it's
exceptionally difficult to get rid of officers who don't meet required standards.
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Dame Sarah Thornton ran Thames Valley Police and her leadership there emphasised
training and professionalism.
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But that still couldn't crack the problem of misconduct.

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In the time I was chief, the arrangements for dealing with cases of misconduct were changed
on several occasions and on each occasion it frankly made it harder to require people to
resign or contact them.
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The police foundations with me or they're not employees.

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They hold this common law office and constable and they can't be just made redundant or
sort of sacked and in a way that people would be under employment law and they have to
go through these separate regulations which are set by Parliament and please regulations
which are quite complex and it takes a long time to go through them.
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How can the public have confidence in the police if the if the people in charge of the police
don't control who works for them, it can be so hard to get rid of people that it's just easier to
keep them.
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But that means other officers are subjected to misogyny, homophobia and racism.
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Palm Sander was a former Chief Superintendent with the Metropolitan Police who left
alleging discrimination after 30 years.
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The culture of the Met is quite damaging.

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It is misogynistic.
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It is homophobic and anybody who is different in any way is made to not to feel that they
don't belong, that they shouldn't be there, that they should really look at themselves and
think what am I doing here?
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So the culture is such that it enables bad behaviors because it's it's written off as banter or
canteen culture, and it's not, but because of the kind of work that you're doing, you're under
pressure all the time.
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It's seen as a bit of letting off steam because if you've been dealing with incidents that
involve death, destruction, physical fights, especially when there are children involved, you
come back to the station and you're all sitting there and people will say inappropriate things.
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But that letting off steam is that actually a culture which enables really awful behaviors to
manifest and to be supported by others?
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Because other people who then laugh and take that joke too far then become complicit.
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Why don't think that in the present format Amit can change?
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They weren't enough women.
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There weren't enough people of color.
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They're aren't enough people who have got different characteristics and those sort of
individuals who are different aren't encouraged to join the Metropolitan Police, so it needs
to represent the communities that it's serves and it needs to be answerable to the
communities that it serves.
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It's not like nobody knew this kind of thing was going on.
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Abuse.
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Misogyny, racist behaviour, homophobia.

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These are public and seen by other police officers.

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So you need to have a culture where people feel they can call out misconduct when they see
it.
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Rick Muir says really important that you have a culture of panda so that we can identify
problems and then fix them rather than covering things up basically or just sort of turning a
blind eye to things and that that I think is it is it is a big problem in basing.
0:12:7.260 --> 0:12:19.560

And I think the hierarchy doesn't help because I think people are worried that if they report
something, one thing is they won't necessarily have the support of the people above them,
and that that's a that's a fear they have.
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So a fear that if they report something against that colleagues, then they're sticking their
head above the parapet and you know there's a real culture of internal solidarity, which
means that it can be quite hard to call out for behavior by your colleagues.
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It means you can then be identified as a problematic person.

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You know, if you if you whistle blow.

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It's easy to fall into the trap of thinking the Met just needs to be a proper organization like
everyone else, but it isn't like other organizations it has to recruit people who will be given
permission to use force.
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But who must also expect to be at the receiving end of violence.

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In other words, if you're a police officer, it's possible you could be traumatized by your
colleagues or by the situations you face.
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I feel sad that the well being of traumatized people that are sent out 24 hours of the day to
deal with anything from, you know, I saw for myself a guy whose body was just literally on
the sidewalk.
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UMA and they were finding blankets to cover in men because there wasn't.
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We couldn't get a tent because the two tents that are normally used were used for murders
and weren't cleaned, so we left this poor man's body on on the pavement, covered it in
blankets and stood round him until people were able to come and collect his body.
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You know, I found that traumatic.

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I don't.
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You know, I found it deeply upsetting that in my country and my city in one of the richest
countries of the world, I I couldn't even get a tent to put over that man's body.
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And so they carry that every single day.

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And yet, somehow we don't accept that that happens to people.

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Kathy Hartley

Sarah Thornton.
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There is all the issues about the likelihood is some point of being assaulted.
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And as you say, dealing with trauma and the fact that you are able to use force, but of course
the force will be used against you.
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You know it is.
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It's a tough job.
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Some of the time.
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Umm, because of that?

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Surely the organization needs to look after it's people even more, recognizing that.
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And so if there is bullying or inappropriate behavior going on, you know that is completely
unacceptable.
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We should be wrapping our arms around people who've got a tough job rather than allowing
the culture to develop, which makes it even harder for them.
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And that comes back to the issues about supervision.

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You know, we need to be able to.
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Supervisors need to be trained and supported so that they can engage in things like giving
people the space to decompress, talking about people's experiences, you know, all of these
things which I think are actually have tended to be quite countercultural in policing.
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And you also said that the morale and the police is very low.
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How would you explain that English the workload is become more emotionally taxing or
think emotionally difficult and stressful?
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Police officers are always gonna experience trauma because that's part of the job.
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They they see on, you know, if you go on a shift with the police, with the police, you know
you will see.
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They just deal with frankly one bad thing after the next, you know, and that's always going to
impact on people.
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low morale is compounded sometimes by a culture which doesn't take that seriously, and it's
important for those who are leading the police service to take seriously, you know, the
mental well being of the people who work for them to take seriously these issues around
trauma to make sure that they're not just waiting until people get really sick to do anything
about those things.
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Whenever I say to people who are sort of operational leader as well, you know it's really
important that we do the policing does more continuous professional development,
investing leadership programs, et cetera.
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They will always say to me, but it's all very well saying that, but I've I've got a roster here and
I need to make sure it's full of people who can go out on shift and I think that is the culture,
you know, the culture is, is a boots on the ground mentality.
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It's that mixture of, yeah, the shift work will lack of sleep the long hours, the impact of
trauma and of course, the the standard cultural response to that was quite a match error
response that you were just expected to cope.
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You know, don't be soft.
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Don't complain.
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Just get on with it and to to move from that to a culture which is actually, it's OK to ask for
help.
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It's OK to raise these issues.

0:17:10.60 --> 0:17:16.100

I need people that are older resilience, so you need to have some institutional safeguards,
say into place.
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Manfred Kets de Vries attached to the police is a Dutch academic and psychoanalyst who
spent a lifetime studying the psychological impact of organizations on individuals and teams.
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So to have the ability to have a coaching support system also in your organization, that might
be because apart from your organization itself is already a good way of going about it.
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You know when you think about stress, it's like it's like your blood pressure.
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You don't see it and then it explodes.

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It's.
0:17:46.220 --> 0:17:49.820
You have a stroke and then that's the same thing, and it's easy.
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Not it's probably a more advantageous not to see and one of the important thing is sleep.
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The simple thing is sleep when they get enough sleep.

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I don't know.
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I'm sorry.
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You resort to other things like alcoholism.

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You get alcoholic and other other things you're going to happen out of out of desperation,
but the most important thing is the change of the mindset, and that's very difficult.
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And there I think you know, basically group interventions might be needed that a large
number of the people might goes for some kind of team coaches coaching that they start to
build relationship with each other and really make contracts with each other.
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What is proper behavior and that they also get rewarded on property and behavior and civic
behavior in the organizations?
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It's become common practice in the UK these days to put safeguarding procedures in place
for anyone in schools or soup kitchens or university classes who might experience stress or
trauma.
0:18:48.590 --> 0:18:51.990
The review shows that the Met seems strikingly underpowered.
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How would you create a culture where people can discuss behavior, could discuss ethical
issues, can understand, you know what?
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What's of concern to people and and and feel enabled to do that without being blamed.
0:19:7.650 --> 0:19:14.490
You know, a commitment to to, to learning, I guess and and part of that I guess is also
learning learning from from failure when things go wrong.
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And then on top of that, you have a sense in which our colleagues encouraged to challenge
the behaviour of here in colleague.
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So don't know you have the difficult conversations, then you have the challenge and then
you know if those are not working then you have the management intervention.
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So it needs to be a a pretty end to end approach to grab the culture and say we cannot allow
this to happen.
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I think it's got to be the approach in forensic science, they use the phrase.
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Every contact leaves a trace, and that's the case in policing everything they do leaves a trace.
0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.320

So it absolutely does need to be everybody.

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This is the way we have to be to maintain the trust and confidence of our communities.
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I think it's probably about two or three different things.
0:20:4.0 --> 0:20:11.360
the the tone and what the leaders say and the desperate need to avoid defensiveness about
this.
0:20:12.740 --> 0:20:16.810

The second issue I think is about relationships.

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Relationships primarily with the public and that level of local engagement and visibility
absolutely key.
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And the third issue is is the need for this to be right across the organization.
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It has got to be everybody's responsibility.

0:20:34.260 --> 0:20:59.740
Louise Casey, I think that the new leadership, the new Commissioner, new Deputy
Commissioner, I think some of the people that have wanted this out, as it were, who are
existing in the organization, I can think of, particularly one that actually Assistant
Commissioner, who was there in Northern Ireland when the shift came from the Royal Aster
Constabulary to the police service for Northern Ireland.
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And what a huge seismic change that was in terms of for different reasons and different
outcomes for the same culture.
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The reinvention of policing in Northern Ireland offers one example where a police force, the
Royal Ulster Constabulary, was deeply distrusted by much of the community and yet was
able to turn itself around following the Good Friday Agreement when the RUC became the
police service of Northern Ireland PSNI.
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This was far more than a branding exercise.

0:21:38.270 --> 0:21:39.80
Kathy Hartley
It's complete.
0:21:39.90 --> 0:21:44.420
Overhaul was based on 175 recommendations made by Lord Patton.
0:21:45.130 --> 0:21:51.60

Robin Masefield was a civil servant who oversaw the legislative change required to reform
the service.
0:21:51.930 --> 0:22:7.580
Was it totally fundamental review of policing in Northern Ireland, setting down a number of
new areas really in the blueprint for policing that we believe here has stood the test of time
extraordinarily well in nearly 25 years?
0:22:7.890 --> 0:22:10.520
And has served as a template elsewhere.
0:22:11.50 --> 0:22:21.360

George Hamilton was Chief constable of the PSNI from 2014 to 2019, three essentials for at
least reform.
0:22:22.310 --> 0:22:24.620
You need this political commitment to engagement.
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You need the executive police level of engagement and and leadership and and then sort of
linked to that is something about the workforce itself being able to slowness the positive
desire for change within the masses within the workforce itself.
0:22:44.340 --> 0:22:51.770

And you certainly need a critical mass that's prepared to change, because without that it's
actually not going to happen.
0:22:52.380 --> 0:22:59.960

Lord Patten had argued that to gain public trust, the new service needed roughly to reflect
the diversity of the community itself.
0:23:1.70 --> 0:23:2.380
This was essential.
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It wasn't woke or about political correctness.

0:23:5.250 --> 0:23:8.500

It was about public confidence and communication.

0:23:9.230 --> 0:23:18.230

This was contested, but the implementation team successfully found a way to ensure that
affirmative action would not mean lower standards.
0:23:18.650 --> 0:23:26.780

Under what became known as 5050 recruitment, whoever was selected and appointed to
the organization still had to meet the standards.
0:23:26.790 --> 0:23:29.940

So there was no dilution of quality.

0:23:29.990 --> 0:23:39.240
In one sense, it was basically two parts of successful candidates, one from the Catholic
community and then.
0:23:40.580 --> 0:23:46.370

Other or non-Catholic community and as people were selected, they were removed.
0:23:46.380 --> 0:23:49.690

They were appointed from each of those pots in a one for one basis.
0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:53.740
Now that was essential because was.
0:23:53.750 --> 0:23:55.540

It was uncomfortable for many people.

0:23:55.980 --> 0:24:10.640
It strategically it was absolutely the right thing to do, but Patman himself identified that this
measure needed to be done for a time bound period to get to a critical mass so that the
organization felt different and was certainly more representative.
0:24:11.170 --> 0:24:18.540
Patman also focused on oversight, ensuring enough transparency that the public could gain
confidence in the new service.
0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:26.630

Robin Masefield, the PattenCommission set up and said there should be an oversight
Commissioner for a period of five years.
0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:45.30

They lasted rather longer and that was an external senior police officer from North America
and the team, and he too produced regular reports for the public on the implementation of
pattern and and really again helping to hold the progress to account and make sure that it
was taken forward.
0:24:45.420 --> 0:24:56.780

Having lived through the transformation of the RUC into the PSNI, how confident are George
Hamilton and Robin Macefield feel about the scale of the challenge faced by the mat?
0:24:57.250 --> 0:25:7.380

There's pretty much an entire new team at the very top end of the math, and it's how those
10 or 11 people provide leadership to the other 45,000.
0:25:7.930 --> 0:25:55.760

I believe that they have the personality, Skills, public service ethos, the commitment to
achieve that, and I think an openness to look at help from other places, a willingness to
change all of the right behaviors around transparency and not being defensive and being
realistic about the the scale of the challenge gives me confidence that if anybody can do it,
Mark Rowley, letter Owens and that senior executive team at the Met are in a really strong
place and we give me, as someone who's passionate about policing and about public service
and about serving communities, I think that team is is stronger team as I have seen.
0:25:56.490 --> 0:25:58.910

That gives me some optimism for the future.

0:26:0.230 --> 0:26:2.440

Certainly shouldn't be impossible.

0:26:2.580 --> 0:26:11.560
Would it take a fundamental reason branch change with external accountability and
oversight in a way that we don't quite have it at present?
0:26:12.290 --> 0:26:26.570

It it might do, I suspect recruiting, training, calling out misogyny, racism, homophobia,
incompetence, creating a speak up culture where every single member of the service feels
responsible for its reputation.
0:26:26.580 --> 0:26:36.220

And legitimacy, support and help for the mental wear and tear have a tough job oversight,
transparency and accountability.
0:26:37.200 --> 0:26:39.500

Changing the Met is going to be a long haul.

0:26:40.570 --> 0:26:46.460
So how confident can we be that it will do what's required and what will it take?
0:26:47.620 --> 0:26:49.760

That part's inspector of Constabulary.

0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:54.170

We're all my sort of tipping point in public confidence in policing.

0:26:54.260 --> 0:27:3.630

Now my analysis would be that that that all of us, not just leadership of the net but all of
those involved in policing and society in general has just been slow to spot.
0:27:3.640 --> 0:27:4.350
What was happening?
0:27:4.600 --> 0:27:5.370
You have to work on.
0:27:5.380 --> 0:27:14.640
Hope you have to work on hope, but if you have to put a carrot in front of it saying we can
be the best police force in the world, that's our goal.
0:27:15.30 --> 0:27:20.360

Do I want to listen to the 20th anniversary of the Casey report that made for all these
findings?
0:27:20.370 --> 0:27:21.860

And here that nothing has changed.

0:27:22.910 --> 0:27:27.530
Kathy Hartley
The only thing I think Margaret, is that we have laid bare everything.
0:27:27.580 --> 0:27:29.360

This isn't a report about one thing.

0:27:29.370 --> 0:27:30.680
It's not just about race.
0:27:30.690 --> 0:27:32.260

It's not just about misogyny.

0:27:32.310 --> 0:27:34.280
It's not just about how they treat evidence.
0:27:34.290 --> 0:27:54.640

It's not just about consent, it's this end to end diagnostic, really of what isn't working in the
Met and it gives them the best route map you could possibly have if they do all of our
recommendations together, we think that they can make significant headway to turn this
around.
0:27:55.980 --> 0:28:11.260
We say two years, 2 1/2 years, you know you we should be looking at significant change, but
what it must be is institutionalized and systemic that you make those choices, not just
picking on certain things you can do quickly.
0:28:27.450 --> 0:28:32.950

End of programme.

Kathy Hartley
The UK has become the first country in the world to begin using a fully tested vaccine against
coronavirus.
0:28:34.610 --> 0:28:46.60
Kathy Hartley
On December 8th, 2020, in a hospital in Coventry, Margaret Keenan became the first person
outside of trials to receive a clinically approved vaccine for COVID-19.