05ac5ff044764f4a0300000094b92aa3.docx

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Center-Lod District Court

42209-04-19 State of Israel v. Silver (Supervised Detainee/Prisoner) et al.
01 May 2023
before
The Honorable Judge Liora Brody, Deputy – Avd
The Honorable Judge Michal Barak Nevo
The Honorable Justice Michael Tamir
The accuser
Israel
against
Defendants
1. Amos Dov Silver (detainee) ID 036559680
2. Bar-El Levy (Detainee) I.D. 304864762
3. Ofir Michel ID 039076229
4. Roy Ashkenazi 036418689
5. Ran Buganim, ID 036791416
6. Shimon Tohami 303028484
7. Omri Shmuel Meyerson, 1970 046248977
8. Idan Burla, 1970 207278557
<#2#>
Present:
Counsel for the accuser – Adv. Shiri Rom, Adv. Yoni Hadad
Counsel for Defendant 1 – Adv. Itai Bar Oz, Adv. Nitzan Beilin
On behalf of Counsel for Defendant No. 2 – Adv. Beilin
Counsel for Defendant 3 – Adv. Kobi Sudri (coming later)
Counsel for Defendant 4 – Adv. Omri Rosenberg, Adv. Yaron Barzilai
Counsel for Defendant 5 – Adv. Amit Ziv
Counsel for Defendant 6 – Adv. Nadav Greenwald (coming later), in his place Adv.
Bar Oz
Counsel for Defendant 7 – Missing in Possession
Counsel for Defendant 8 – Missing, and in her name Adv. Bar Oz
Defendants 1, 3, 5, 6 and 8 themselves
Defendant 7 – Missing in possession
Defendant 4, who is ill, was informed to the court that a medical certificate would
be presented later
<#2#>
protocol
Hon. H. Brody: Serious Crime Case 42209-04-19. State of Israel v. Amos Silver and
others. Meeting on May 1, 2023. Before the panel sitting on trial. Present: Counsel
for the accuser Advocates Shiri Rom and Yoni Hadad, counsel for Defendant 1
Attorneys Itai Bar Oz and Nitzan Beilin, on behalf of Counsel for Defendant 2 Adv.
Beilin, Counsel for Defendant 3 Adv. Kobi Sudri will arrive later, Counsel for
Defendant 4 Adv. Yaron Barzilai and Omri Rosenberg, Counsel for Defendant 5 Adv.
Amit Ziv, Counsel for defendant 6 Adv. Nadav Greenwald (will arrive later) in his
place Adv. Bar Oz, counsel for defendant 7 is absent in the PA, counsel for
defendant 8 is absent and on her behalf Adv. Bar Oz, there are several defendants
present, quiet there on the bench, 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 and 8.
Hon. Barak Nevo: The judge is talking to you.
The Honourable H.S. Brody: Defendant 7 is missing with permission, defendant 4 is
also ill, the court was informed that a medical certificate would be presented
later. Further to the typed transcript, it should be noted that Adv. Rozin will not
be able to appear today and only Adv. Bar Oz will appear on his behalf, regarding
Defendant No. 4, the consent is recorded, yes? For a hearing in his absence
regarding Accused No. 4.
Hon. Barak Nevo: And only Mr. 2 has not yet arrived and it has not been explained
why?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Moment 2 is listed as it is.
ATTORNEY ROM: He prescribed us Attorney Rozin.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's listed here as if.
The Honourable Barak Nevo: Rozin is registered.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, no, no.
Hon. Barak Nevo: But 2 has not arrived yet.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Excuse me.
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes, he told us that his mother had something medical in the morning
and that he was late because of that.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So he's going to send a medical certificate or something?
ATTORNEY ROM: He actually wrote it a few minutes ago.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, then, please, there is a mistake here Defendant No. 2 is not
present, see a moment, please.
Attorney Beilin: Attorney Rozin writes.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Copy of my friend's message.
Recorder: Attorney Beilin needs a microphone.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Is there agreement? Yes.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: He only writes that Defendant No. 2's mother has some kind of
fibromyalgia attack and that Barel is currently with her and that he will not be
able to attend.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Is there agreement to discuss absenteeism?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: And he confirms that she hasn't answered Shiri yet.
ATTORNEY ROM: It was clear to me, I wasn't.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Usually it's obvious, but I want it to be more than obvious in a
serious crime case.
ATTORNEY ROM: I ask, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Come on for a second. Until you check. Close the recording.
(Pause in recording).
Hon. H.S. Brody: Attorney Rom, please, regarding Defendant No. 2, what did the
inquiry come up?
Attorney Rom: Counsel for Defendant 2 Adv. Rozin informed me this morning that
Defendant 2 will not attend because he is with his mother, who is in some kind of
medical event, and he has no objection to the hearing taking place in his absence.
Hon. H.S. Brody: There is agreement, no, there is no objection.
<#3#>
Decision
We approve the hearing in the absence of Defendant No. 2, but Adv. Rozin is
requested to instruct him to produce a medical certificate to support the claims.
Given and announced today 01/05/2023 in the presence of those present.
Leora Brody, Judge, Vice President – ABD

Michal Barak Nevo, Judge
Michael Tamir, Judge
Hon. H.S. Brody: And we begin a hearing that was opened late because of a court-
related constraint.
A.T/1 Maj. Shoshan Binyamin, after being legally warned, responds in cross-
examination to attorney Itai Bar Oz:
Hon. H.S. Brody: Good morning to Maj. Shoshan Binyamin, he is warned to tell the
truth and only the other truth, he is liable to the penalties prescribed by law.
Now the investigation by counsel for accused no. 1 continues, please, sir.
Attorney Bar Oz: Good morning, Shoshan.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Good morning.
Q: How are you this morning?
A: Good.
Q: Is everything okay?
A: Thank God.
Q: Great. Well, in the previous discussion we talked in a nutshell about
investigative actions that you took that had nothing to do with the process of
issuing warrants but more to the issue of performance before the open investigation
and in the investigation itself. Now, I'll just mention, I was also wrong in the
previous discussion by saying that you interrogated Silver 5 times, you
interrogated him 9 times.
A: I said.
Q: You immediately raised an eyebrow when I said 5 and you were right, fine. Now,
even before the outbreak, during the undercover investigation, we talked about the
fact that you had materials in digital evidence, most of which you received through
the agent, whether from materials that he himself downloaded, transferred to the
operator and passed on to your command, and at a more advanced stage after signing
a state-witness agreement, you already log into his user and take everything out
yourself, right? Yes.
A: Again, I personally didn't do it, I can't tell you about it, I got the
materials.
Q: I'm not going back to the distinction between materials.
A: I say, I don't know.
Q: From this stage to this stage.
A: They came to me from the command.
Q: The panel has already made a decision.
A: Yes.
Q: Yes.
A: That's right.
Q: Okay. Now, when I look at the actions that you did and you did a lot of actions
in the undercover investigation and I mean in relation to my client Silver, I think
you can divide into 3 the actions that you did, one part is action reports related
to Telegrass publications First Telegrass community, executive room, high
management, management updates where it appeared either 'unavailable and
unanswered' or the user @amossilver is one.
A: Okay.
Q: The second group is actually the second and third is open sources, the second
group is Facebook and live posts and all kinds of quotes from Amos from Facebook
and you worked a lot on his Facebook.
A: That's right.
Q: Part of your initiative and part also of the request of the State Attorney's
Office as part of the supplements.
A: That's right.
Q: Right? And the third part is basically action reports on articles and interviews
by Silver from the media, radio, podcasts, 7 days, Brno Tegnia, all those things,
right?
A: That's right.
Q: Great. All right, by the way, I also noticed that you have done a lot of things
with you personally for several months even after an indictment was filed against
27 people involved. Silver was either in Ukraine or in Israel and still you
continue to prepare action reports regarding posts that come up from his account,
right?
A: After an indictment?
Q: Yes, after being indicted in April before Silver was indicted, he was extradited
in August and indicted in September.
A: I don't remember the date I made, but if you have it.
Q: I'll show you, we'll go over things.
A: So I probably did.
Q: In an orderly manner. All right.
A: I probably did.
Q: So let's get started. Look, I'll start with the first group of exhibits related
to the activity of user Amos Silver in Telegrass First Telegrass community.
A: Good.
Q: After all, you get basically all the content of the groups and channels from the
agent since the founding of Telegrass more or less, the agent got into Tallgrass
pretty quickly after its founding in 2017, right?
A: I don't know the date he entered Tallgrass.
Q: Okay, but would you agree with me that you get a lot of digital material?
A: That's right.
Q: Do you read all these conversations from beginning to end? All the conversations
that there are in the operations room, highly managed?
A: Either I read or it's by search words.
Q: Search words.
A: Either one or the other.
Q: I also talked to you in the previous discussion and I told you that in my
opinion and this is how I intend to prove today your search was focused on
quotation marks for the bad things and you were not looking for positive Telegrass
activity even though sometimes it was also right under your eyes, do you remember I
told you that?
A: That's right, you said.
Q: Good. I refer you, please, to T/620 barcode 8021.
Hon. H.S. Brody: One more time, excuse me, Tuff?
Adv. Bar Oz: T/620.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Yoni, can you bring it to me, please?
Q: Yes, lawsuit, as long as you have to present the source to a witness I will be
glad. It's already been submitted to your honor, right? Exhibits were submitted.
ATTORNEY ROM: No.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: No, no, no.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Didn't you submit?
Attorney Rom: We submitted the exhibits.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Exactly.
ATTORNEY ROM: You should submit them.
Attorney Bar Oz: So it's worthwhile.
Attorney Rom: We also did not comment by the way, Attorney Sudri submitted.
Attorney Bar Oz: For wiretapping.
ATTORNEY ROM: But he's not here, so we'll address it later.
Attorney Bar Oz: But it's for wiretapping.
Hon. H.S. Brody: We note.
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes, yes, yes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Not to that.
ATTORNEY ROM: That's right.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The court's comment on the record that a notice was filed
following the previous meeting on behalf of Attorney Sudri that he opposes the
filing.
ATTORNEY ROM: For admissibility.
Hon. H.S. Brody: To the admissibility of wiretapping and he, I say briefly his
objection at the moment is not present in the courtroom, so we will not go into
things, but the main argument presented before us is the main argument presented
before us is that a public servant's certificate actually relates only to one of
the components that require proof and that is the production as opposed to issuing
the orders and the technical actions that were done in order to carry them out, if
necessary things will be addressed later on. At the moment we are receiving the
documents while maintaining the right of all parties.
Attorney Haddad: We are submitting the documents prepared by the witness, unrelated
to Sudari's claim.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Unrelated?
Hon. Barak Nevo: No.
Attorney Haddad: Attorney Sudri spoke about wiretapping.
Hon. H.S. Brody: So why did you mention that? I thought that was what.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, because this witness is now.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right, okay.
Hon. Barak Nevo: These are the documents of this witness.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Is that according to the list?
ATTORNEY HADAD: Yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: So everything that is said now goes into parentheses at the moment
and we will now focus on the documents that this witness has prepared.
Hon. S. Tamir: Is it T/496 to T/670A?
Hon. Barak Nevo: You will say again.
The Honourable H.S. Tamir: T/496 to T/670A.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I'm just mentioning. Does the recording work?
Attorney Bar-Oz: I just mention the objection to the exhibits that came through the
agent, that your honor decided that it was conditional and so on, and later it will
be clarified, testified, not testified?
Hon. H.S. Brody: That's right. We also have T/496A, which is the list we can use as
well. Please.
Attorney Bar-Oz: So your honor can also look at T/620, I will now talk to him about
it.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes. So the court, right now the witness is referred to T/620.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes.
Hon. S. Brody: Please, always tell us briefly what it really is in 2 sentences that
we can focus on.
Attorney Bar Oz: What is it, Lily?
<#4#>
Decision
A/620, Username check operation report for Amos Silver and directional groups found
in Telegrass document dated September 2, 2018.

Hon. H.S. Brody: Do you spring?

THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: Yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Were you shown the document itself?
A: Yes, show.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, what is the question?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, you want to tell us briefly what it is?
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: Yes. I searched groups called Directions on
Telegrass every time a username Amos Silver came up.
Hon. H.S. Brody: There is no need to transcribe our recorder Ronen. Yes please, we
will continue.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. You said you searched groups called directions, yes?
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: That's right.
Q: Are you sure it's groups? Do you want to be more precise? Take a better look, on
the first page.
A: What is it that I am rewriting folders here?
Q: Yes.
A: All right, I said it last time and I say again, everything I checked it was in
the folders of our server, okay?
Q: No problem, look.
A: No problem, I got, directions folders, no problem.
Q: That's right. In terms of the schedule, we are on September 18, an undercover
investigation is underway, the agent is still an agent and in fact in terms of the
material that is transferred to you, it is all material that he himself downloads
and gives you, an agreement has not yet been signed until the state and you do not
enter his user.
A: Okay.
Q: This is one of the exhibits that I objected to and we'll see later, but let's
talk about its merits. So first of all I discussed with you the distinction between
directional groups and folders, are there any groups of directions in Telgrass?
A: What I saw in the folder and it's also indicated here are folders with the names
of each one and his area actually Telegrass Be'er Sheva, Haifa.
Q: You're putting on the forensic server.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, I mean geographical division of communities?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: By region.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You upload all the material on the forensic server and divide it
by folders, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Directions: what is it? What are Directions in Telegrass?
A: This is the area you can purchase from.
Q: These are actually the places where you can buy weed, right?
A: That's right.
Q: Beautiful, is it a group or a channel? Can anyone send a message or is it only
the person who manages the channel or who gets permission?
A: What I checked here is the folders that appear on the server and I go to the
server folders and I saw the correspondence.
Q: I'm telling you.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Why is this an answer to his question? I didn't understand.
Attorney Bar-Oz: He doesn't know.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Because I have nothing to say.
Q. He doesn't know.
A: For something I didn't do.
Q: No, you did, you may not remember, that was almost 5 years ago.
A: I went into the folders.
Q: No problem, even in the folders.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, but how does that relate to your question? I didn't get it.
Attorney Bar-Oz: There are groups and there are channels, he says, 'I went into
folders, I don't know what groups or channels are, it's all divided there.'
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay.
Attorney Bar-Oz: So I mention and say, channels is that only the manager can send a
message and that's where the trade was, groups are a lot of people can send and
talk about a lot of things that aren't necessarily weed trade and things like that,
directions are where you can be interested.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR-BENYAMIN: Okay.
Q: Direction, right?
A: Okay.
Q: There is a direction.
A: Okay.
Q: Do you know the Yesh Direction Party? Good. Now, what is the purpose of this
action report? You enter the folder.
A: Yes.
Q: And looking for user Amos Silver.
A: That's right.
Q: What is its purpose? What do you want to see?
A: See his activity.
Q: Okay.
A: His activity means degree of involvement.
Q: I mean, if he's active in groups through directions channels, it also indicates
that he's active in telegrass and he could also be involved in trade, right?
A: Maybe yes, maybe not.
Q: And then it's incriminating, it contributes to your thesis.
A: Yes, but I was looking for user Amos Silver.
Q: Yes.
A: Okay? I documented everything I saw of Amos Silver.
Q: That's right, you documented accurately. Now, you're also a researcher we
already said meticulous, doing things right and I'm sure you wrote down all the
places you found it there in a very careful search, right?
A: I didn't skip anything.
Q: As it should. Now look.
A: I did my best.
Q: Now look, you actually write some places that you found an indication of user
Amos Silver and printed it. Now I want to ask you, have you noticed when you look
at the places where the user Amos Silver appears.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Court note: At 9:50 A.M., Attorney Kobi Sudri entered. Yes please,
counsel for defendant 3.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Have you noticed some common denominator, something that maybe
some common thread between all the places that the user Amos Silver appears there?
Look.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I documented a group No.
Q: Cyber Unit.
A: I documented by where he uses groups.
Q: Yes, but when Amos Silver appeared, I saw one thing in common.
A: I'd love for you to tell me, I've documented again regardless of good or bad,
I've documented where his username appears.
Q: Look, on the first page, what is the date the name appeared? There are 3 dates
there.
A: I see 14 here, if I see it correctly 14 October 2017.
Q: Yes.
A: and 13 October 2017.
Q: Yes. Ok. Page Two What is the date?
A: Also 13 October 2017.
Q: Next page?
A: Oh, no, there's also 14.10 here.
Q: That's right, 14.10. Next page?
A: No, there is both.
Q: No problem. Next up?
A: 15.
Q: Beautiful. Pay attention on all pages.
A: Yes.
Q: This date is 15.10.17, 13.10, 14.10, what happened on 15.10? You know what,
Beilin, show him the indictment a minute. I refer you to the indictment page 1.
A: Leave, I'm coming to you.
Q: Don't put your finger on him, hello.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: No, I'm showing him the indictment.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: He shows the indictment, all right.
Attorney Bar-Oz: What happened on October 15th?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Yes, Defendant 1.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Well?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, no, you tell him, well.
A: It doesn't matter. Okay, well, okay, what's the question?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: A little help.
(Speaking in the background).
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. BENYAMIN: Okay and?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: You saw what?
Hon. Barak Nevo: What happened on the 15th?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I saw that there was a defendant Amos Dov Silver.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Her name? There?
A: Defendant Amos Dov Silver.
Attorney Bar-Oz: He was born on this day 15.10, which is Amos Silver's birthday.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Well?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Congratulations.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay and what do they write to him, what do they write to him in
these messages? And what does he write back?
A: I'll answer even though I admit I don't understand what it is, but
"congratulations deliveries all over the north before it's over."
Q: Beautiful. You notice that all you do in this report is mention of Silver that
someone tagged him with the strudel and he answers with a thumbs up, that's it.
A: It doesn't contradict what I said, I said I was documenting, I documented
everything.
Q: That's right. I agree that you document everything.
A: That Amos Silver showed up.
Q: But let's talk about the essence. Look, you come to check Amos Silver's
involvement in directions, to see if he's involved in the trade, to see if he's
present there, you print a report that at first glance we see yes, right, Amos
Silver really we see that he's involved in the issue of directions.
A: Well?
Q: And when you go in and read you see that they said 'congratulations' to him on
October 15, 2017 and he gave a thumbs up, so now why don't you try on a fundamental
level to write 'Amos Silver has no indication that he is functioning in
directions'?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait, but what is 13 and 14? You said there is.
Attorney Bar-Oz: The day before my birthday.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Will it be 'good luck' thumbs up there too?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Madam can see.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, no, come on always.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. "Congratulations," thumbs up.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No quiz. Is that all there is?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. Or he makes a thumbs up.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Also on the 13th, also on the 14th, also on the 15th?
Attorney Bar Oz: I correct myself, sometimes there is a thumb and sometimes 2
fingers like that.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay, but that's all there is to 13, 14 and 15?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. It's all before his birthday a day or two and he says
'congratulations' and he gives a thumbs up. Now, what can I learn from this? You
took action, you sat now don't know how many hours all directional groups you ran
Amos Silver, screenshots, what can I learn from this? I can learn from this, I'll
tell you what I learn from it, that he's not involved in directions at all, that
all the activity of Amos Silver Telegrass doesn't appear in directions, doesn't
talk to anyone, nothing.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Are you asking me?
Q: Yes.
A: It was you who inferred it, you didn't.
Q: What do you learn from this?
A: I learn from doing a thorough job and documenting everything.
Q: You're great.
Hon. Barak Nevo: All right, all right.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I agree with you.
Hon. Barak Nevo: But he asks you what it means.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't.
Attorney Bar Oz: 10 out of 10.
A: There are also action reports, okay? That they do for testing, for
documentation, for mentioning, what happened after that with that? I don't know,
but I documented everything.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, but what he's asking you is something else, after all, the
purpose of the documentation and the examination and all this is really to see
involvement, if the only involvement there is involvement of 'congratulations' and
thumbs up and such, then it's not so relevant to our file.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Does that mean he is not involved or is involved? I
think he sees what's going on, I see he is.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, you see what, so okay, so that's what you want to conclude?
A: I think so.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait, Lily, so what you conclude from this is that he sees what's
going on?
A: No, that's not what I'm inferring.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So what?
A: I said that everything related to the suspect I documented.
Hon. Barak Nevo: We understood that.
A: That's what I did.
Hon. Barak Nevo: But I ask you what is the conclusion?
A: I was just documenting.
Hon. Barak Nevo: As someone who looked and saw what did you get out of it?
Hon. H.S. Brody: What is the picture?
Hon. Barak Nevo: What did you draw from that?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I concluded from this that even on a super level he is
involved in everything, that's what I deduced from that.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay, that's what I wanted to understand.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Got it. I'm telling you that you really did a thorough job, you
didn't neglect anything, and that all I see here from being told 'congratulations'
is exactly the opposite, the fact that he's not involved, isn't there and doesn't
talk to anyone all this time except when they say 'congratulations', is that
logical my conclusion?
THE WITNESS, Maj. Benjamin: And I say that to the best of my understanding, what I
did in this report as well, he knows what's going on, he's involved in what's going
on.
Q. How does he know what's going on? How does he know what's going on? Does he see
something and comment? After all, you slammed all the suspects, will he kiss
anything? So is it really here in the directions in which this will be launched? Is
he the supreme arbiter and so on? I ask you, what you see here are any indications
of this?
A: There are indications that he is involved and knows what is happening in these
folders as well, this is my opinion, in my opinion, according to what I understood
to the best of my understanding and vision.
Q: I'm a member of a lot of WhatsApp groups, there's a group I don't participate in
at all, I never go into.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Do you show him but also the material itself?
Attorney Bar Oz: In front of your eyes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He has only that.
Hon. Hashem Tamir: You have.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Also the reports?
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's the report.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: The documents, this is the report.
Q: Yes, yes. Wasn't it submitted in your honor?
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Yes, yes, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, it was submitted, but you see all sorts of things there in
correspondence, it's not just good luck, just maybe for the sake of completeness of
things because we also read more things there.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's exactly what I'm saying.
Hon. H.S. Brody: With the prices, with the prices, then maybe we need to address.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's what the trader says.
Hon. H.S. Brody: After all, we don't, we don't hide things.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, of course.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But we want to explain, then it will be before us.
Attorney Bar Oz: That's what the merchant writes, what Silver writes is thumbs up
and stuff when he says 'congratulations' or prices for Amos' birthday.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Okay, so what's the thumb? What does this mean?
Attorney Bar-Oz: When you say congratulations, it is customary to say 'thank you'
is thank you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And about the prices?
Adv. Bar Oz: In the world of virtual emoji.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And the prices are not?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Unequivocally.
Hon. Barak Nevo: "Hurry up and order before it runs out", "crazy material under
warranty", "guarantees quality and weight".
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's also there.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: This is the merchant's advertising.
Attorney Bar-Oz: This is the merchant's advertising.
Hon. Barak Nevo: That's clear, but.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But it's there.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I say that you see it, that you see it.
Hon. Barak Nevo: If he is there and responds, then what he concludes from this is
that he sees it.
A: That's exactly what I said.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Obviously, there was no question, there was no controversy on this
matter, it's that Amos Silver The user Amos Silver is part of Tallgrass, obviously,
but I'm asking you about his involvement in the directions, the goal before they
sent you to sit on it for a whole day or something.
Q. There was a little bit different, not just answering 'congratulations' with a
thumbs up and I'm telling you that I don't see any involvement of him beyond those
blessings and thanks.
A: The goal was, the goal was to document everything where it was related, you
asked me what I concluded? I say again, I concluded that he has knowledge and
involvement in this because he sees these things.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But overall it should be our work at the end, what is there to
argue? Unless it's meant to show that there was a conception that it was some
starting point to continue the investigation, but for the involvement it's just
questions for summaries and a court decision, right?
Attorney Bar Oz: That's Shoshan's job, that's what he did.
Hon. H.S. Brody: To navigate.
Attorney Bar-Oz: These reports.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, all right.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Obviously, the exhibits are being submitted.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And you actually came and said that there was some kind of
evidence of things.
Attorney Bar-Oz: This is specifically, by the way, not related to the evidence, it
is actually something else.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, because you're saying, if we ask him to analyze things.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's a sign that you want to get out.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right.
Hon. H.S. Brody: To get out of it in some way as far as I'm concerned.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Their conception. Well, please, ask.
Attorney Bar-Oz: The question is this, look, the material you have here is until
October 2018, literally a few months before the outbreak, and from all the content
in the groups of directions that we know weighs a lot of volume, that's what you
found, these are the things and you say, 'I was thorough, I went through
everything,' all these mentions of good luck, the 10 mentions of good luck, yes?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't really remember, if that's what I did, that's
what it is.
Q: Now look.
A: Not really.
Q: Okay. Now this is one example of the issue of directions.
A: Good.
Q: I've seen her really work long hours on similar things like in a high war room,
management updates, all those things.
A: Yes.
Q: Now I want to point you to one user back A/619.
A: June, is it possible?
Q: Barcode 3504.
A: Need it more?
Q: No, no, that's what we're done with. T/619.
A: One second.
Q: When did you write this report?
A: Wait, okay? What is the question?
Q: When are you writing this report?
A: 28 August 2019.
Q: Silver has been in legal custody for about 5 months now, right?
A: Okay.
Q: Okay. Now, what you wrote in this report is accurate?
A: To the best of my recollection, yes, you ask me again, forget it, what is it to
the best of my recollection? Yes.
Q: Yes.
A: Everything I did, I tried to be as precise as I could.
Q: Okay.
A: As much as possible.
Q: In the first line you write that you've seen user messages named Unavailable.
A: I say unavailable responded, yes.
Q: Yes. What do you think was Amos Silver's user? The whole time you researched the
file, all the reports you made, what was its user?
A: According to what I've written here, it's not available.
Q: I ask you?
A: I answer.
Q: You investigated this case.
A: You go back 5 years with me, I am not available.
Q: All the exhibits he edited, I'm telling you Silver's user according to the
indictment.
A: Yes.
Q: According to what you wrote in the previous report.
A: Yes.
Q: Or in all other reports it @amossilver in English.
A: Okay.
Q: It's the user.
A: Okay.
Q: What is the second thing that appears on the display that a user writes
something? There are 2 things, there is a user and there is something else.
A: I'm really trying to understand what the question is? What? If there was an
unavailable user, that's what I've written here is that I think it's busy, the user
is unavailable.
Q: Okay. I'm telling you that according to what the prosecutors say in the
indictment.
A: Good.
Q: Silver's display name, as it should appear in conversations is not available and
there is no response.
A: Okay.
Q: No, not available. Do you know that?
Hon. S. Barak Nevo: Not available and?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No answer. As written in the indictment.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Both?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Not available and no response. It is not separately but one
sentence in 4 words.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, I understood.
Attorney Bar Oz: But Shoshan dug into Telegrass material for years.
Q: I'm surprised you don't remember such a basic thing.
A: Do you know how many cases I've done since then? But.
Q: But okay.
A: Wait a second. I also mentioned, just for the sake of good order, in any case
also that there is also the picture next to this user of Amos, of course.
Q: In your entire investigation of the case, we are already 5 months after the
indictment was filed.
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a user called disabled or disabled and no reply, user not display
name? I'm telling you no, I'm saying as it was in the previous report.
A: Even if I really want to, I try.
Q: The user is @amossilver and what you wrote here is incorrect, it's not the user
it's the display name.
A: No, what I wrote here is true, if you claim it's not user or something it's
something else.
Q: No, that's not true.
A: What I wrote here is true.
Q: Because what you see in the conversation is the display name and not the user,
you know those things, Lily.
A: Because I wrote user is this the person?
Q: user, yes, I didn't get this user accurate, you had to write a display name.
A: Good.
Q: And that's an important distinction. Second thing.
A: Yes.
Q: I'm a little surprised that you know that Silver's loaded display name isn't
available and there's no answer, as you're looking for in dozens of reports.
A: Yes.
Q: And here you see this name but short by 2 words just not available.
A: Yes.
Q: Now at this time, where is Amos? Where is he at the time these reports are
written, since when are they?
A: My report from August 19.
Q: That's right, but when do you write these messages? Look, I'm referring you.
A: Too bad I didn't write the date here.
Q: On page 3, hint, the first group is called the Demonstration Room for Tallgrass
Detainees.
A: Good.
Q: Could it be after the arrests?
A: I don't remember when the arrests were, but it could be.
Q: March, March 12, 2019 at 4:20 a.m.
A: So yes, then after the arrests.
Q: After the arrests because there are detainees. Beauty. Now, do we have any
indication or can I tell from the report really what is the exact day it was taken?
A: What documentation did I make?
Q: Yes.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What do you mean it was taken?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Screenshot of the conversation The conversation was written
sometime, so since when is it? I see it's at 46, want to know the date.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: It states here that she is in August.
Q: August, okay. While Silver spent part of the time in Ukraine and part of the
time already extradited to Israel.
A: As I documented in paragraph 4 that there is a video from 8.19 that he appears
in.
Q: Now look at the last page, please, from 9 August 2019, great, 9 August 2019 He's
in Ukraine with the Ukrainians, right?
A: 9.8.
Q: He was extradited to Israel on August 18.
A: Good.
Q. That's right, you came to take him after all. No, okay, it's been a while.
A: What does it mean that I remember the date I took it? I don't remember when I
flew to get him.
Q: Okay, okay.
A: I really don't remember.
Q: Now let's take a look, Lily, the last page of this thing.
A: Yes.
Q: What username do you see here?
A: Not available.
Q: And that's it. What's the user you see here?
A: Username, display name not available here.
Q: Yes, right. And what user do you see here?
A: @silveramos.
Q: Okay is this his usual user? Is this the user you think Amos Silver was in
during the entire Tallgrass era?
A: In my opinion, it's a name thing and the last name appears, and that's something
that needs to be checked at the time.
Hon. Barak Nevo: I didn't understand.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I say yes, in my opinion, if there is a busy silver and
a picture, it is something that in the end should be examined.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. So here you check, you prepare a report for us.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Did you say user or user?
(Talking together).
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: This display name is not available with a photo of
Amos.
A: And this username @silveramos.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Look, about 3 years ago, counsel for defendant No. 2 did some kind
of demonstration here in the courtroom about the fact that he can open a Telegram
group with all kinds of users in one moment, he can call himself Ehud Barak and put
a picture of Ehud Barak.
THE WITNESS, Maj. Benjamin: That's right
Q: He can call himself Ronald Reagan and put a picture of Ronald Reagan.
A: Okay.
Q: Do you have any indication that the person who wrote these messages was Amos
Silver? Whoever wrote the messages, leave the video.
A: In the end, I am.
Q: Yes.
A: I was asked to document everything that Amos Dov Silver was involved in.
Q: That's right.
A: And that's what I did.
Q: But where do I know it's Amos Dov Silver? You also write in the headline "Action
report post messages and video posted by Amos Dov Silver in the main Telegrass
community group", the user is not his usual user, the display name is not his usual
display name and anyone who looks at the report at first glance may be wrong by the
way you phrased it, there is nothing that says it is Amos Dov Silver.
A: Okay and in paragraph 4 I wrote "In the video uploaded the user is not
available", still that user is not available and there is a video that shows Amos.
Q: Say, video.
A: Okay?
Q: Can someone else take pictures and upload to user? Does it happen things like
that?
A: Anything can be, I wrote that it is.
Q: Anything can be.
A: It's busy.
Q: How did you tell the judge? That needs to be checked.
A: But here I wrote, "A video uploaded by the user is not available and looks like
Amos Dov Silver himself."
Q: True, here you are completely accurate, but look at the headline, in the
headline you say that this whole report is messages and pictures published by Amos.
A: Okay.
Q: No user is not available, no silver display name is busy.
A: Okay.
Q: Now if we've already gotten into it, look, Amos also told you during
investigations in Israel that there are many, many fake and impostor users, right?
Did he tell you?
A: He told me.
Q: Do you remember?
A: He said during interrogation.
Q: For example @amoss or with one s or for example a lowercase letter or a capital
letter, which there were many who impersonated him and sent messages on his behalf,
now look what it is, here this user even manages to trick you.
A: Okay.
Q: I'm sure you didn't intentionally write in the headline that it was Amos Silver
but because you thought, but you might as well be wrong about 1001 messages, there
were also real-time examples in the reports you made, were you aware of these
distinctions?
A: I don't know what real-time examples you say.
Q: Let's give an example now.
A: But I just don't understand what real-time examples are.
Q: Here is a display name instead of unavailable and unanswered, unavailable, for
example.
A: Okay.
Q: Username instead @amossilver Silveramos Even you didn't notice it and wrote on
the report in good faith that it was Amos Silver, even though there is no
indication of that.
A: You don't think there's any indication, you think it's not him, I'm not, I'm
again.
Q: Did you have any way to check the claim made by Silver or some of the suspects
at the time about fake users?
A: I remember bringing it up, I don't remember telling you what, what was with it,
but I certainly brought it up to the officers.
Q: By the way, the agent even told you this very early on, that there really is
some problem with this issue as far as the traders are concerned, could it be that
someone is going through a verification process and this person is being operated
by a trader to get another place of trade, did that come up in the investigation?
A. I don't know what he said, I didn't talk to him, I don't know what he said, I
have no idea.
Q: I can show you indictments filed in a magistrate's court by the police
prosecution department where they claim that there were some who manipulated others
including minors who would just make this video that they were holding a plate, go
through the verification process and then they took the user, meaning that the same
dealer worked with 50 users of trafficking.
A: Okay, you're asking me for something I don't have, no, like you're saying, OK,
so I believe you.
Q: Look, this can have a significant impact on a numerical figure like the number
of traders verified on Tallgrass. The question is whether the investigating unit, I
haven't seen, tried in some way to check the identity of the user that it really
is, or is there a lot of duplication and then the numbers swell of everyone, users,
traders, managers, everything?
A: Ask the high command about it.
Q: Amir Lavon?
A: Among other things.
Q: You don't think so. All right. Ok. Very well. Good. Look, I refer you to T/622
in the reports that I can't understand what public resources were wasted on, if you
can present it forever, I'll be happy.
A: Thank you.
The Honorable Barak Nevo: 622.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, we are still in the framework of the exhibits allegedly
related to Amos Silver in Tallgrass. Good. A/620 We are already in December 2018
Your unit is already beginning meetings with judges in preparation for issuing
various orders, the outbreak is beginning to take shape, come and explain to me
what you are doing in this XXXH?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Documents 2 correspondence in which Amos is involved.
Q: What is the purpose of this?
A: At the time I made the report, it's documentation again.
Q: Documentation of what?
A: Of Amos' involvement.
Q: Okay. Stage?
A: In general, Telegrass specifically also in the folder I documented.
Q: What folder did you record?
A: It's a folder that was named Captain America in the testimonies and that's where
I went into a folder called Breeders Branch.
Q: Okay, let's dwell on that.
A: There is a group there called High Management. As the report says.
Q: No problem. Actually in the testimonies folder, what's there? Is there anyone's
testimonies there? Is there evidence of anything there?
A: The name of the Evidence folder, I was directed where I was directed to look.
Q: Look, we're looking at things today after 5 years, I'm trying to figure out what
was the purpose of these investigative actions? Did it lead to something
incriminating, didn't it? I really can't, I'd love for you to explain to me what
the purpose of this report is?
A: Like exactly as it says here.
Q: I know how to read, I know you entered this place on the day and time.
A: Being unavailable, that's exactly what I did, what do you expect me to tell you
more things? That's exactly what I did.
Q: Of course you did.
A: If I did more things I would say.
Q: But again, you're not acting.
A: What is my goal?
Q: You don't act as a robot, yes.
A: True, but my goal.
Q. After all, if Fleisiger told you, 'Search for red lettuce,' you would say, 'Ren,
what is red lettuce? Why do I have to do this?', you ask, it's not like you work
like a robot, what's the purpose here? What?
A: Document the involvement of Amos Dov Silver
Q: Okay in the growers industry?
A: Among other things, in this case the growers industry, yes.
Q: Growers industry, let's exchange some word 2 about the growers industry, what is
the growers industry? You are looking for Silver's activity in the growers
industry, what is the growers industry?
A: I'm looking for Silver's activity among other things.
Q: At all Tallgrass.
A: It's also an industry. Everything they guided me to where they guided me to
look.
Hon. H.S. Brody: First of all, what is a grower industry? It's just that we're now
getting more into these issues, we've dealt with other things, so can you give a
little background word about the grower industry that's what?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Which is to the best of my understanding again because
I went into the folders and didn't go into specifically, but all the guys who are
responsible for the growth of the types of drugs.
Attorney Bar-Oz: For the growth of what? Of what drugs?
A: Sugi's, I said of the types of drugs, I didn't go all the way into this, I
documented and if Amos was involved or he mentioned or he, I don't really remember
because it was a long time ago, so that's where I was delayed.
Q: Look, you said all kinds of drugs, MDMA how do you grow?
A: I don't.
Q: Don't you know?
A: Not strong on drugs, I said all kinds of drugs.
Q: Okay.
A: Not strong, I haven't had it yet.
The Honorable Barak Nevo: Grow MDMA.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Do not grow, do not use, far from me this world.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. LSD teaches how to grow? In outdoor greenhouses, out door,
in door? I'm telling you that chemicals are not grown, only cannabis is grown.
A: Okay.
Q: Good. Didn't you know that?
A: Good.
Q: Do chemicals grow on trees? I ask you, Lily.
A: Really my understanding of that is.
Q: Come on, Lily.
A: None, what do you want? What am I.
Q: Do chemicals grow on trees?
A: Nil, I also what I wrote here has to do with something specific.
Q: You investigated the case.
A: Permissions.
Q: Flag in 2019, threat to governance, drugs, don't you know the difference if you
can grow chemicals on trees or not when you have a grower industry in Telgrass?
A: Okay.
Q: It's an orphanage, well.
A: Okay. What is the question? What like?
Q: Would you agree with me when talking about growers, it's just cannabis? Nothing
else?
A: I can't agree with you on such a thing.
Q: You can't.
A: I don't have, absolutely not, what I don't.
Q: Good. So I'm telling you that's the thing.
A: Okay.
Q: Now look, the growers in Tallgrass it was some branch of the organization that
they grow cannabis and then sell it at a huge profit obviously by the Telegrass
system?
A: You ask me what it is?
Q: Yes.
A: Growing and then in the end it's also a sale, yes.
Q: It makes sense to me when there's a criminal organization, there's an industry
where things are grown and then the trade industry sells them, right?
A: You just think maybe I'm working on you or something, but I was 5, 4 years ago
on this net on it I was in, now you're asking me to remember what was 5 years ago?
I'm really trying hard.
Q: No.
A: I don't.
Q: I'm asking you questions.
A: Are you asking me what the growers industry is about? And I'll tell you what I
remember, what's in my action reports, I've done another thing or 2 since then,
it's not that I am.
Q: No, but when I ask you if chemicals grow on trees it has nothing to do with what
it was 5 years ago.
A: So if it's not related, then what?
Q: I'm investigating you for a purpose that will eventually be related.
A: No, everything is fine, everything is fine.
Q: But I'm asking you a question that's basic.
A: Really I am, really I am.
Q: Well, look.
A: Answers everything.
Q: I'm telling you, Lily.
A: In all seriousness, really in all seriousness.
Q: I'm telling you that there was no such thing as a grower industry in an
organization that Tallgrass profited from.
A: Okay.
Q: There wasn't. I'm telling you that Tallgrass as a system encouraged growers,
gave them advice.
A: Okay.
Q: Now.
Hon. H.S. Brody: I mean, there was nothing they were about growing, that's what you
want to say.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. Guidance perhaps.
Hon. H.S. Brody: They were not engaged in growing.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Community advice.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But guide, guide?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes, there was advice from the whole community, not from the
system itself. Now, Amos also tells you this in investigations in Israel, he tells
you, 'Why does Tallgrass have a grower industry? It seemingly cuts off the industry
I'm sitting on,' unlike any other cannabis drug, anyone can put a potted plant at
home to water and he doesn't have to buy, there will be no drug trade, why would
Tallgrass do such a thing? It goes against the logic of the organization, he told
you this many times in interrogations.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I'll just say.
ATTORNEY ROM: What's the point? Wait, sorry, I object to the question because the
witness doesn't have to explain here what to get into Amos Dov Silver's head or
whatever Telegrass executives do to give an explanation as to why they thought the
tower industry was.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, he is.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, really not to get into your head.
ATTORNEY ROM: So I don't understand what the question is?
Attorney Bar-Oz: He searches the material.
Attorney Rom: What's the question forever?
Attorney Bar-Oz: I will say.
ATTORNEY ROM: He documented what is, what there is not.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He's trying to show, he's trying to show, if I understood
correctly that there was some tendentious documentation of things here, if I
understood correctly.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right, more than that, I started with a question.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That's what he wants to say.
Attorney Bar-Oz: And I asked him, what is the purpose of this?
Hon. H.S. Brody: But examples are sufficient.
ATTORNEY ROM: No, but again, but, well, I but I think not, we need to present him
with the full picture.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: He knows her.
ATTORNEY ROM: He also says he doesn't remember completely.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: It was refreshed on all the materials.
ATTORNEY ROM: No, he didn't read all the materials in the file now, all the agent's
testimony, everything he knew.
Hon. H. Brody: Adv. Rom.
Attorney Bar-Oz: An agent doesn't have to.
Hon. H.S. Brody: For example, you did not object in the document.
Attorney Bar-Oz: It's also related.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait. The first document they showed here with the birthday back
then also had all kinds of talk about drugs, but you didn't say anything when it
was interrogated.
ATTORNEY ROM: It's okay because he asked him why he specifically documented it?
ATTORNEY ROM: But he didn't ask him.
Hon. H.S. Brody: So if there is anything you can ask for all.
ATTORNEY ROM: He didn't ask him why he didn't, I have no problem with asking why
you documented it? But the question is why there was a channel of towers in
Tallgrass.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No.
ATTORNEY ROM: It's not a question forever.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's not, it's not a question.
ATTORNEY ROM: That's all.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, I didn't ask why there was a channel
Hon. H.S. Brody: Okay, not too bad, it's not that.
ATTORNEY ROM: What was the target?
Adv. Bar-Oz: Logic, logic.
ATTORNEY ROM: Why?
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right, the comment has been accepted. Keep.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Onwards.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR-BENYAMIN: Anyway, it's high management, okay? The
documentation is high management, it's not some random group of growers.
Q: It's also something that's a little hard for me to understand. You write that
you entered the folder of the growers branch and from the tower branch printed
screenshots of a group called high management, really in the title I see high
management, what did who made this division that specifically in the growers
industry you found high management material within the forensic server Who was
responsible for these folders?
A: I want very much, I have no way to answer that to you.
Q: Excuse me?
A: What do you mean who was?
Q: Who arranged it? Who put it there? Up?
A: Absolutely.
Q: The witness points out why.
A: What am I, I am not.
Q. God? Not.
A: I don't, but seriously.
Q: Amir Lavon? No, that's important to me.
A: The command, the command, I don't know how to tell you, I answer you in all
seriousness.
Q: Okay. I believe you. Now say, from what date did these correspondences begin?
You're printing it on December 7, 2018, when did they write it?
A: If not, if I haven't documented it here I can't tell you an exact date.
Q. We also have no idea when they said these things, so again, what's the procedure
for this? Listen, you did the act of investigating, you sat on this report.
A: Yes, but I don't know if it is.
Q: Public resources, you're a very talented researcher, you could, you know, send
pedophiles to jail, what's the purpose of that? You went through the materials,
what? I can't understand.
A: Again, really, documenting everything that was seen about Amos Dov Silver and
here too they talk about permissions, high management is probably not just given
this name and that's what I did, I documented it.
Q: Well, okay. I couldn't figure out the answer, but okay. Look, let's move on to
T/625 which is an action report that traders have verified.
Hon. H.S. Brody: List of merchants verified by Amos Dov Silver.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Silver, yes.
Hon. H. Brody: 80 merchants.
Hon. H.S. Brody: User Amos Silver.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. What word 2 about the verification process at Telegrass do
you want to say?
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: No.
Q: Don't want to say, don't say. The verification process, as the indictment
indicates, is a process in which a user contacts Tallgrass and says he wants to be
a trader and then some kind of check is done on social networks things like that,
some kind of software from the Ministry of the Interior to see if he has a
connection to the police or something like that, is that true what I'm saying?
Makes sense?
A: Among other things, it's that, yes, makes sense.
Q: Makes sense. Beauty. Now you had a list of 2,400 traders, right?
A: Okay. Yes.
Q: Do you remember where you got it from?
A: I remember just seeing her, again, it was me getting the Excel chart.
Q: No problem.
A: With all that and I just sorted by it.
Q: I say this to your honor that this is part of the group of exhibits that were
physically transferred by the agent himself and therefore I object to their
submission, nevertheless it is my duty to question him about these things as far as
it is received. Look, this list has 2,400 users, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Great. Do you check here who verified them by display name or by user?
A: Here I checked by user according to what is written in the report.
Q: According to user, the user name, i.e., did you do some segmentation in the
Excel table and it gave you this result?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay and again from the file forwarded by the agent. Now, what interests me is
the next thing, whether within the framework of your actions.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, we're done not with the document, is it something general?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, no, on the document.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: In the framework of your actions here in this particular report as
well, or at all, did you, as an investigative unit, do you do or have you tried to
do some kind of examination process as to whether even one of these users who were
verified to be traders were actual traders?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I didn't, I didn't.
Q: Are you aware of such a test?
A: I don't know how to tell you.
Q: Because you'll see.
A: I didn't.
Q: Look, they keep saying numbers of traders here and it sounds very scary, 4,000
traders, 5,000 traders, 200,000 users, the numbers are dramatic, that's why we're
also in front of 3 judges, among other things.
A: Okay.
Q: And I'm telling you that you didn't bother to do the most basic and doable test
even though you have here on a silver platter name, ID card, address, date of
birth, user, everything, can you sample 10 of them, 5, to see if there is any
indication that a person has actually gone through a trade verification process?
A: You speak to me as a head.
Q: To you.
A: Unit head?
Q: No.
A: An investigator in charge of the investigation?
Q: As Shoshan Benjamin.
A: I didn't.
Q. You, I'm not disrespecting you.
A. You tell me what everyone did and what not everyone did.
Q: You are a senior investigator and you did a lot of things in the case.
A: I am.
Q: You're a very smart guy.
A: I didn't, you say 'everyone', I don't know what everyone is, I can't speak for
everyone.
Q: I'm telling you that no check was done either on this list of 2,400 or on any
other list that existed and not on you had the verification bot in the hack, you
downloaded the verification bot, all the identifying data of the people, you didn't
do any testing to check whether the person who was verified to be a merchant is an
actual merchant? And so it's lacking and therefore meaningless, meaningless is that
you call them traders here, it's users who have been verified to be traders,
there's no actual knowledge about yes traders, not traders and as a result there's
no knowledge about the number of traders in Telegrass at all, what do you say?
A: I repeat again, I didn't, you say everyone didn't, what didn't they do? I am not
in charge of the investigation, I as an investigator in this case specifically did
not do, I can answer you for what I did.
Q: Look, an hour ago you submitted 170 exhibits, you did a lot of things, you
signed each of these exhibits.
A: Everything I signed I did.
Q: That's all we've had in the last 3 years, 25% of it or more have been submitted
through you even, that's a lot, so of the investigators who actually worked on the
case, Shoshan, I think you did the most, the most actions. Now, you're like I said,
how did you say that to Silver during the investigation in Israel? Here I will read
to you, you tell Silver in the interrogation of 28.8.19 on page 14 and this is
T/670 should not be opened, you tell him so, he gave some joke about the fact that
the investigators are also computer researchers, so you tell him, "I say not
personally, it was a joke", you tell him "the guys here, the guys here", Silver
tells you "with his head on his shoulders", So you tell him "no suckers, no one
here are suckers" and then Silver replies "they're not suckers, they're a bit sahim
but" and then you tell him "not a little", meaning the cyber investigators guys
aren't suckers. Thank you. The researchers, no researcher is not in quotation
marks, doesn't want to say a bad word, but has poor intelligence or something,
they're all just fine.
A: That's right.
Q: But with you, it's even more in cyber researchers.
A: That's what I think.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Poor?
Attorney Bar-Oz: What we've been impressed with so far, too.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR: That's what I think.
Q: Okay. So I ask you as someone with a head on his shoulders who did 200 actions
in a case.
A: But I answered.
Q: Isn't it a cardinal question for such a case how many traders were in Tallgrass?
A: But again I answered you, you asked me, 'Did you do?' I told you no, you asked
me, you told me, 'Nobody did?' I don't know, I didn't.
Q: Let's summarize this point.
A: There are the guys above that you can ask whoever is in charge of the
investigation.
Q: Let's summarize this point by telling you that in my opinion this is a
significant omission that made the whole affair look more serious, the indictment
was painted blacker, all the calculations of the IRS relied on these numbers of the
merchants, all the civil assessments that were done here to people and this is a
figure that is incorrect that you did not check and could have checked very easily.
Good. Let's move forward. On. Let's move for a moment to the second group of
exhibits related to Silver and submitted through you is the exhibits related to the
media.
Hon. Hashem Tamir: The visible are what you are.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes. Actually, if I look at the list of exhibits T/634A, to
the best of my recollection, the exhibits related to this Silver from T/588 to
T/634, sorry to T/636, a lot of exhibits, the cyber guys also arranged it really
according to each defendant very nicely. Is it true that in this case you carried
out many actions related to Silver's statements in the media?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Are you asking me?
Q: Yes.
A: Yes, I've done a lot.
Q: Great. In fact, what was needed from an investigative standpoint in this matter?
Did need some special measures? Technologies, capabilities, cloud penetration?
A: No, what I did was not.
Q: Google.
A: It's visible to everyone.
Q: That's right. Say, is this a clear characteristic of a criminal organization
whose head is interviewed under every fresh tree in the media, says 'I'm the
founder, I'm the face' and details things?
A: What do I know all about?
Q: As an investigative unit, as a police?
A: All the criminal organizations in Israel?
Q: Yes.
A: Where do I know? What?
Q: Yes.
A: How can I answer your questions?
Q: Would Abergel have done that? Would he be interviewed and would he talk about
the operatives?
A: How do I know what Abergel is doing or not?
Q: Domrani?
A: I have no idea.
Q: No?
A: Where do I know? I know?
Q: Abu Latif?
A: Do I know if you're being interviewed or not? What?
Q: No?
A: You're asking me about crime families, I don't know.
Q: You are Lahav 433, you are the Israeli FBI.
A: The Cyber Unit.
Q: Even more. A cutting edge.
A: I don't know how to answer, in all seriousness.
Q: I'm telling you that the fact, the very fact that there are many investigative
activities. What a difference it is with water now, something. That many
investigative actions, many investigative actions were to go to Google to submit
Amos Silver and burn on CD footage from the radio, from the media, this is
something that is very unusual as an investigative unit investigating a criminal
organization case, I think even unprecedented.
A: Okay.
Q: You haven't had it, have you actually investigated organization files since
then? Not? Was it such a one-time thing? All right. Now, all the actions you have
taken in connection with the media have been instructed to do this? Was it from the
prosecutor's office? Was it from Amir Levon? Maybe you've enlarged your head and
thought about it?
A: No, no, you were instructed for sure.
Q: Excuse me?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Excuse me?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I was instructed with certainty.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You were instructed and of course you don't remember who
instructed you?
A: No, I don't know, I don't.
Q: You hardly write down in any report who instructed you, in no report I've seen
here it says 'under the direction of Ran F.' or 'Amir L.', right? Why don't you
write it down? Some researchers do take notes.
A: So I didn't write down.
Q: You didn't write down.
A: Maybe there are reports that I did write? I don't really remember.
Q: So it's hard to trace things. Look, let's say Silver.
A: No, if I say they guided me then they guided me, what is it impossible?
Q: I believe you, Lily.
A: No, you say 'hard to trace' like.
Q: So far, there are no disagreements between us at all. Really I believe you.
Let's say Silver is interviewed for 7 days by Amir Schoen, 7 days is Yedioth
Ahronoth, the state's newspaper at the time, reaches many homes in Israel, it
didn't take too much effort to download it, both online and printed, right? Ok.
Now, the question is this, Amir Schoen as an example, Silver is interviewed for 7
days a number of things, you prepare an action report, it is submitted, did you
contact Amir Schoen or the 7-day editorial board?
A: I don't.
Q: Okay. In each of the action reports or cases in which you carried out
investigative activities related to the media that are now submitted to the judges,
were you instructed to try to locate the raw material? The full recording of the
interview? Not what is edited and cut and displayed, the tapes, all kinds of things
like that? We know that in every TV show and in every interview there are things
that don't go in that sometimes change even the picture, even word for word for
word.
A: Okay.
Q: So has such an attempt been made?
A: I don't.
Q: Are you familiar with a request in your file to contact one of the media
channels? To the raw material of the article?
A: I'm not. Don't know how to tell you.
Q: So basically what you're presenting to the judge is what the media presented,
edited, cut or censored or uncensored, we'll never know because you didn't even try
to get all the original raw materials?
A: I didn't try, again, I don't speak for everyone, I didn't try.
Q: The only attempt made in this case to obtain the raw material is by me and
Beilin, who asked for the raw material of the Ovda program, in which Avi Mayberg is
interviewed together with Haim Wismonsky in connection with Tallgrass, besides, no
attempt was made to obtain the original materials, and I tell you that this leads
to the judges receiving evidence whose reliability is questionable. Edited, what
do you say? You just put a lot of time into it too.
A: Right, that's why I'm saying that everything I searched in the open information
and was on the Internet and documented was what was there, edited, unedited? Don't
know how to tell you.
Q: You don't know if it's edited or unedited, what is the authenticity of it? OK,
yes? Is that true what I'm saying?
A: I don't know if it's edited or unedited, that's what I'm saying.
Q: Okay. 100%. And you also don't know if it reflects exactly what Silver said?
There may have been nuances whose meaning even changes, right? Because you don't
have the raw material.
A: I don't know what, what, again, you say 'raw material', I documented with open
information.
Q: What was broadcast.
A: Videos and videos available on the internet, yes.
Q: I'll repeat, raw material, for example, when you write an article in 7 days,
there's a conversation of a few hours at the end of which the interviewer chooses
what to insert and the editor cuts that too, so I say you have no way of knowing
whether what was published in the newspaper is what came out of Silver's mouth,
right?
A: No.
Q: Good. Very well. On. Let's talk about the group.
A: I'll just point out, what is what came out of Silver's mouth? In the video you
can see Silver coming out of his mouth, I don't know if it's edited or not.
Q: There is a difference, please note.
A: There's a difference between he doesn't take it out of his mouth or it's edited.
Q: Between a live video and everything, a live video I agree with you, a live video
I agree with you, although that too may be manipulated, but that's another story,
I'm talking about articles, broadcast interviews, podcasts, things like that. Okay,
let's move on to the next group of exhibits and I'm talking now about exhibits
related to his people's Facebook profileS, which is actually T/597 to T/607.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Taff?
Attorney Bar Oz: 597, I'll ask him a little bit about T/597 witness.
Hon. Barak Nevo: 97? 9, 7?
Adv. Bar Oz: 597, 5, 9, 7.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, all right.
Adv. Bar Oz: Committee to T/608. I'm just opening parentheses.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, category? Category? Back.
Adv. Bar Oz: This category is exhibited related to Silver's Facebook profile.
You'll be brought soon.
Q: He's signaling. Ok. From 597 to 608 you can give him them all too.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Ask something general, we won't go in.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes, yes, I don't, Madam See, I don't, I don't go through
with him one by one, I understood.
Hon. H.S. Brody: There are things.
Attorney Bar-Oz: His answers are also real.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, not either, I don't know how much it will advance, there are
examples of everything.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. I will only address your honor.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Wait, that she will only bring me.
Q: For the record, no, I'm not asking you for now. As for the previous chapter, you
can see in T/611 this is some kind of summary of things from an article published
on Kan 11, T/612 is Silver's interview with Kalman and Lieberman, T/613 I don't
know what it is, T/614 YouTube videos are all examples of what I said and there are
already some that are in the exhibits file. Well, I'm going to start asking you, I
won't refer you until she brings you. I refer your honor to T/607.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Action report, posts from Amos Silver's Facebook profile.
Hon. H.S. Brody: From March 25, 19 on the tent protest.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Good, 607. Ok. I'm not asking you specifically yet, but general
about Facebook, we'll touch on the exhibit itself. Well, you sat on Silver's
Facebook account a lot, right?
Q: You really downloaded there, you did a lot of action reports, you summarized
whole years, you'll agree with me that Silver was active on Facebook, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Or at least his Facebook profile was active.
A: True.
Q: His profile took out a lot of messages and posts and a lot of text, whole
binders you printed from his Facebook, right?
A: Yes.
Q: By the way his account I'm like that personal information knows that a Facebook
profile can be either private or public, I mean, I can write all my thoughts but no
one will see it, it's some kind of feature of concealment, his private profile was
public?
A: I don't remember to tell you, I really don't.
Q. If it was private, could you see it?
A. If it had been private, I probably wouldn't have seen.
Q: So it must have been public, wasn't it? Lily, A. B.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Are there no intermediate ranks?
Attorney Bar-Oz: There are only friends, I think.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: No, this is a specific post you can make.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I'm not that strong on Facebook really.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So you have to tell us.
Attorney Bar Oz: Even though Shoshan is following me, but okay.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: No, that's not the story here at all. His story is Twitter.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, Instagram.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Now it's TikTok, isn't it?
Attorney Bar Oz: TikTok is strong, I haven't downloaded yet, I even ban my
daughter, but I need to check it out. Good.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: As soon as Amos does, it's public.
Q: Now Lily will follow me there, it's not.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: If you make the videos that you explain to clients.
Hon. Barak Nevo: How did I get an acquittal in all the cases?
ATTORNEY SUDRY: Or how did I get an exemption for someone who shouldn't get an
exemption.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's big.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Terrible and terrible.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What is it?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Haven't you seen that?
Attorney Bar Oz: During a break.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Like Dad wrote on Google.
Hon. Hashem Tamir: Stop recording, stop recording.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Look, Facebook is a social network, right?
Q: Okay. Can I log into my Facebook account or Facebook user from multiple devices?
A: Yes, you can log into Facebook Yes.
Q: Tell me there's a user on Facebook.
A: Can, can.
Q: My passwords are usually pretty easy.
A: For example?
Q: Usually it's my birthday and the year and the name is in English, like 80% of
people or 1234. Now, can you say log in from your phone if you have the user and
password to my Facebook account and post on my behalf?
A: Yes.
Q: Can. Ok. First of all, all you need is the user and password. Now, in this
particular report, in this particular report, unlike other reports, the title is
Action Report, Posts from Amos Dov Silver's Facebook profile, not posts from Amos
Dov Silver, why?
A: Because I recorded a Facebook profile.
Q: Excellent.
A: No, no, now without cynicism. Moment.
Q: No cynicism.
A: I documented. No, because I documented a Facebook profile and even if it was
someone else who wrote on that profile I mentioned it.
Q: Beautiful. Very nice, right, I agree with you. This is also the thing about
social networks, by the way also on Telegram, after all, you can access a certain
user from anywhere and in general, usually also in your conversations for the
purpose of high management, operations room, managers, you don't know who writes
the messages from the user, for that matter there is a user called Giora and you
think Giora, just me throwing away.
A: Just.
Q: It's Hisham Abu Obeid, just.
Attorney Rom: Barel, Barel, Giora Ze Barel.
Attorney Bar-Oz: His lawyer should object here now.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: On behalf of Attorney Rozin, I object.
Attorney Bar Oz: Very nice.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: That's an example.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. So let's say.
ATTORNEY ROM: At least be precise.
Attorney Bar Oz: Let's say there is a man in Alaska named Ronnie Katz in Alaska and
he knows Giora's user and password.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: Good.
Q: He comes in and writes messages on behalf of Giora, do you have any way of
knowing that it's Hisham Abu Obeid that you think of or that it's Ronnie Katz in
Alaska? You don't know, do you?
A: Are you asking me about Facebook? I don't know.
Q: No, on, I was actually talking about Telegram now, same thing but, same thing,
all you need is a user and a password.
A: Okay.
Q: And here, for example, in this XXX.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Taff?
Adv. Bar Oz: At T/607.
Hon. H.S. Brody: 607, yes. What about him?
Attorney Bar-Oz: T/607, you are writing this report on March 25, 2019.
Q: March 25, March 19, 25.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait a minute, he lost you.
Recorder: I'll stop for a second.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Great. 25 March 2019 All those involved here in Israel have been
detained for days.
Q: You're 12 days after the outbreak and Silver was detained in Ukraine under very
difficult conditions, he told you about it, it was at first that he was detained
there with the neo-Nazis and all these things, not simple, not simple, really I
say. Beilin is up, more concentrated. Beauty. And basically in the hack.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Today you're just like you're in the mood shooting in all
directions and it's before the break.
Attorney Bar Oz: It's because of the water, happy water. Look, you write something
like this in paragraph 1, "A post in which it is written in the profile of Amos Dov
Silver that there is a tent protest that will take place on March 26, 19 and the
location is the headquarters of Lahav Unit 433, an industrial zone north of Lod."
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I wrote it really quickly probably.
Q: "In the parking lot opposite the entrance." Now you'll agree with me that
neither Amos Silver nor anyone else involved can physically write a post like this
coordinating a demonstration in front of Lahav's headquarters, right?
A: It shows that I'm not tendentious and documents everything.
Q: You're fine.
A: I know.
Q: There are no complaints against you. Kind of. There is a little.
A: I don't.
Q: So far there are no allegations, after that we will get to investigations in
Israel, it's something else.
A: I don't know who wrote it.
Q: The matter is different, you don't know who wrote it and you honestly wrote that
it was written from the profile.
A: That's right.
Q: And I'm telling you equally all the action reports where you've compiled posts.
A: Yes.
Q: And all the action reports where you've even compiled posts in the Telegrass
community, there's no telling today whether this is who you suspect to be or
someone else on a digital level unless that person said, 'I did, I wrote.'
A: Good.
Q: Right?
A: You established a fact, so I say good.
Q: That's not a fact, I'm making a statement.
A. You tell me, 'I'm telling you.' So OK.
Q: If you think it's wrong, tell me, challenge me. For example, here is a great
example because everyone is detained and here comes a post from Silver's profile,
I'll tell you more than that, posts came up from Silver's profile all the time that
he was detained in Israel, for a long time he was detained in Israel.
A: Okay.
Q: Ends October 18, 2022.
A: Okay and I documented them.
Q: 22.
A: And I documented them.
Q: No, would you agree with me that when he's detained with grenades, he can't get
on his phone and computer and post? Do you think he had a phone there? Really
because if you do I imagine you'd do some kind of test, a phone in jail isn't
unless you're from Hezbollah or something, it's not like that not ma'am.
A: I'm just saying that according to the report, what I did here, I didn't say who
wrote, I said it came up in his profile.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, all right, but enlighten us, could it be that someone from
prison can write? If you know?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, where do I know an indication of what's in the
prison? Well, really not, really not.
Attorney Bar Oz: Look.
A: I hope not, I don't know, I don't know what.
Q: Look, when you wanted to, you knew very well to get to an IP address that was
close to where they connected on Facebook, I'll give you an example, there was a
moment in Ukraine the day before Silver was supposed to be extradited to Israel as
far as I remember August 16th or 15th he arrives at the airport his escorts went to
the right by mistake He went left and found himself outside and then some post came
up and you wanted to know where this post came from? Do you remember?
A: I don't know, I don't really remember which post, no cynicism, I don't remember
which post.
Q: There was a post and you applied for an order to the Petah Tikva Magistrate's
Court to give you the IP address and an order against Facebook that Facebook give
the IP address through which the post was recorded.
A: That I took out?
Q: Order 3612, I think it's him.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Yes, it's barcode 3612.
Attorney Bar Oz: 3612 Shoshan Binyamin, you took out.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: So if I took out.
Q: You are with your own hands.
A: So there was such a thing.
Q: You and not resin.
A: If I took out, there would be such a thing.
Q: Okay. I mean, yes there is a way to know the location and then you would be able
to know if those posts recorded while Silver was in Ukraine were recorded from
Metula or Tel Mond or New York.
A: Okay.
Q: For example. Apart from this thing that you wanted I don't know how to help
maybe Ukraine get its hands on, it's ever been done in this case, all the posts,
all the work you've done on Facebook Have you checked location?
A: I didn't, I documented a profile.
Q: Okay, I haven't seen. Good.
A: I didn't, I documented the profile.
Q: Okay. I'll just summarize this point. I'm telling you. Yes.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What?
ATTORNEY ROM: It seems to me that there is no need to summarize.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, instead of the summaries.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Instead?
Hon. H.S. Brody: On the spot.
ATTORNEY ROM: No, I'm just, I, your honor.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I must point out that with the judge.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, all right.
Attorney Bar-Oz: When summaries are said, there is talk of a fine.
Hon. Barak Nevo: That's right.
Hon. H. Brody: Adv. Rom.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I learned this in the previous hearing.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Here, too.
Hon. H.S. Brody: You don't have to say what you wanted, you drew your friend's
attention.
ATTORNEY ROM: Good.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He shortened significantly.
Attorney Bar Oz: Sure.
ATTORNEY ROM: No, it's not just the issue, it's the issue.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Got it.
ATTORNEY ROM: That this witness is an investigator.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, we know.
Attorney Rom: He was a junior investigator in this case.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Not junior, not junior.
(Talking together).
ATTORNEY ROM: Apologies.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I protest on his behalf, I oppose.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Say not the head of the investigation team perhaps, but a junior
investigator?
Attorney Bar-Oz: He's really not a junior.
ATTORNEY ROM: I don't think it's insulting, I, this witness was in the role of
investigator, he didn't make decisions.
Attorney Bar-Oz: He's a senior.
ATTORNEY ROM: He didn't conduct the investigation, there were officers above him.
Attorney Rom: The interrogation I understand the reason for this interrogation, but
in the end the witness did not accept.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right, Attorney Rom.
ATTORNEY ROM: Ask the witness.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It will become clear, only what were really a lot of documents
that he edited.
Attorney Bar-Oz: He is one of those who went to issue orders, he issued orders.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: I think we're praising you more.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Second, we're already after that. We're already after that.
(Talking together).
No, not about such things, we will move on to other things.
ATTORNEY ROM: Let's leave the point and move on.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, it will get shorter, it will get shorter.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Actually, I'll just summarize this point.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What conclusion did you want here?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Before we go for a bite to eat.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Something junior.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Something junior.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Now something asked in the gastronome.
Hon. H. Brody: In Gastronomy.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Basically all the evidence submitted to a court file related to a
Facebook profile or another profile that can be used to log in with a username and
password, there is no exact indication of the identity of the person or even if it
was the same person who wrote the message a day apart and the proof of this is this
exhibit in which posts from Amos's profile are written when there is no dispute
between us that he did not write them, So far, for.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I said that the first post I don't know who, the second
post is not him writing.
Q: Well, thank you. We will continue after the break.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Well, Liora, when to return?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Just a second.
Recorder: Stop?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, the recording can be stopped.
(pause).
Hon. H.S. Brody: Resumption of hearing After recess, Adv. Greenwald appeared and we
continue the cross-examination of Maj. Shoshan Binyamin, please, Adv. Bar Oz. We
said you can tip a little bit like this, focus on other issues and move forward.
Please.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. I've been saying so, we've already understood the concept of
the 3 groups of exhibits that we talked about at the beginning, that we had
Facebook posts, mentions of the user Amos Silver or unavailable and there is no
answer in Telegrass and a media issue, that's what we went through, right, Lily?
Q: Okay. Regarding the media we said that there was no effort to concentrate raw
materials, regarding Telegrass I showed you the nuances in changing the user or
changing the display name that it could be someone else and for everyone we also
agreed that there is no certainty that the person you think is the person is the
one who wrote the post because what is needed is user access and a password so far?
A: What will I do? I disagreed with you on the last part, but disagreeing is fine
either.
Q: Okay, no problem.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right, what the concluding question is unnecessary for him.
Hon. H.S. Brody: "What I agreed, I agreed."
Attorney Bar-Oz: No problem.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He doesn't, but about me really the question.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Only for the sake of continuous continuity do I do this.
Hon. H.S. Brody: If there is a possibility that one person writes something that is
presumed to be written by another, technically speaking, is it really possible?
THE WITNESS, Maj. Benjamin: On the face of it, it could be, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Could that be?
A: Ostensibly, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: A man comes in with the user and writes that it is busy.
A: Could be.
Hon. H.S. Brody: There could be such a thing.
Q: As we've shown, there are posts that came up from Silver's account while he was
in custody and certainly didn't have access.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The point is that he was really in custody then.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Good.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay, so that's what you did as far as my client was concerned, in
the undercover investigation part.
Q: Of course, in the previous round on December 21, I talked to you about the whole
issue of digital evidence, the procedure for issuing warrants.
A: Yes, yes.
Q: We will not be going back there.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Now you move on to which chapter?
Attorney Bar-Oz: What we will talk about now is Silver's interrogations in Israel,
the frontal interrogations.
Hon. H.S. Brody: of the defendant himself.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Are there any allegations at the level of his investigation? What
claims?
Attorney Bar-Oz: There is also here.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Anything we need to know?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That there is some.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes, yes. Here, too, at first I went through all sorts of
things, now I decided to give one example that sums up the matter in the end. Well,
first of all, on the night of the outbreak, March 12, 2019, what was your role in
the force, on the very day of the arrests?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: More of a managerial part.
Q: More of a managerial part.
A: On my part of my thread.
Q: Just to remind the composition, you were actually responsible for the cluster in
quotation marks.
A: Yes.
Q: Some of the defendants sitting here are Raz Cronenberg.
A: That's right.
Q: Meir Nissan, good.
A: That's right.
Q: And you didn't join the detention teams?
A: No.
Q: You sat in the war room, so called.
A: Yes.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Let's just differentiate for a moment because he says, 'I had more
of a managerial part' regarding the managerial part, so let's use terminology.
Attorney Bar-Oz: He is simply the manager's manager.
Hon. S. Barak Nevo: From an exam. Exactly.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What does that mean?
Hon. Barak Nevo: So you had more of a managerial part regarding the cluster of
managers?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: The cluster that I am, yes, the cluster that I was
responsible for.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay.
Hon. H.S. Brody: About me?
The Honourable Barak Nevo: The Executive Cluster.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: The cluster I was responsible for, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait a minute.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, which is the cluster of managers.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, because the words here clash.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait a minute, with regard to the cluster of managers only, this
is the first cluster.
Hon. H.S. Brody: You presented it less oh more.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. What did you manage about the managers?
The witness, Sergeant Benjamin: On the first day I was more about seeing that he
had arrived.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Shoshan, speak in our direction.
A: Excuse me, when I got reports, yes, no, interrogation rooms, all the stuff
around, to say if I went into interrogations that day? I don't remember, maybe yes,
I don't really remember to say if yes or no.
Hon. Barak Nevo: It's even managers.
A: But that's what I did, more managers.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, okay.
A: On the first day. I may have entered into one investigation or another, but I
don't remember and certainly not full investigations, I mean no.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I did not sit down and interrogate.
Q: Now it's true, you didn't investigate that day.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, of all these interrogations it wasn't him, he didn't
investigate at all?
Hon. Barak Nevo: On the first day.
Attorney Bar-Oz: On the first day, no.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Because the rest is.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He dealt more with administration.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Just to clarify, he interrogated Silver when Silver landed in
Israel, it was August 5 months later.
Hon. H.S. Brody: From August.
Attorney Bar-Oz: But yes, in the first stage, you will agree with me.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Until the affair, until people were arrested, and so on.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. On March 12, 2019, we heard here Amir Lavon's testimony,
which was very important for you to have the element of surprise, to grab them all
together so they wouldn't hang up, so they wouldn't be disrupted, right? It had to
be coordinated well.
Q: And the first investigations right in the days of the outbreak would you agree
with me that they are critical to the investigation?
A: That's right.
Q: Since for the most part suspects have the potential that they will not maintain
their right to remain silent, cooperate, incriminate others, become state
witnesses, offer to be state witnesses, it happens at the beginning when the iron
is hot as soon as everyone is arrested There is no communication between everyone,
they are in uncertainty, these are conditions that are favorable for you for this,
right?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did you have any specific effort to have any of the defendants with an
emphasis on the administrative backbone, in your opinion, become a state witness?
In other words, will he cooperate with you?
A: As far as I know, what I know the answer is no.
Q: Okay.
A: It doesn't say what doesn't know what's next at the beginning which is, what I
know the answer is no.
Q: Look, in practice when I look at the investigations today, it's not that you had
any particular difficulty in quotation marks to crack the suspects in this case,
right at the beginning I think that about 60, 70% here in the second case didn't
maintain their right to remain silent and spoke to you, right?
A: Good researchers.
Q: Excuse me?
A: Good researchers.
Q: Good researchers or good subjects or bad subjects depending on how you look at
it? But there really wasn't some extraordinary effort, complicated interrogation
exercises, you didn't have to use informants except for Erez Shmueli, there wasn't
anything special here, right?
A: A lot was talking.
Q: They spoke.
A: Relevant to the investigation or irrelevant? Talked.
Q: I'll tell you more than that.
A: A lot was talking.
Q: After all, most of the people who came here, certainly in this case even in the
second case, are not criminals, these are not people who have a criminal record,
these are not people who have been interrogated many times and behave like
criminals in interrogation, right? There was something a little different here.
A: Once again, you know it's per person, a lot of people talked, not necessarily
relevant things, everybody talked, yes.
Q: What is relevant?
A: Relevant, that means you know, we also talked, 'How are you? What's going on?'
In the end, everyone spoke.
Q: No, that's fine.
A: Like no, seriously now, everyone was talking, relevant or not? It's something
else.
Q: Was there any part that should have made some use of the good cop trick bad cop?
Will a policeman with a slightly threatening appearance come and shout, knock on
the table? Wasn't there such a thing for you?
A: No, not that I am.
Q. Some people actually have not-so-good memories of you, remember that you yelled,
that you scared.
A: I shouted sometimes during interrogations, I was scared, I'm not a person who
scares anyone.
Q: Screaming is something that can be frightening, why shout? What?
A: Sometimes it is permissible to raise one's voice during interrogations.
Q: I agree with you.
A: That's all.
Q: Could be. Like I said, a good policeman, a great cop.
A: I didn't have a game like that, no.
Q: High, you're in.
A. I hadn't planned it before and I told him, 'Well, you'll speak nice and I'll
talk badly,' which didn't happen.
Q: Okay. Good. Ok. So as we said at the beginning, you interrogated Amos in his
first 9 interrogations.
A: In Israel.
Q: In Israel, yes. In total, he had about 16 investigations, right? You were also
in part with Ren.
A: Yes.
Q: You walked in.
A: I don't remember the exact number, but yes, I don't want to just say, 9
interrogations I and a few more times Ran investigated, yes.
Q: Yes. Your interrogations, we were just talking during a break about the
coronavirus and the one we learned.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Ran is Ran Fleisiger.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Ran Fleisiger Yes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. I remember sitting down to read it and it was just incredibly
long, every interrogation you interrogated Silver lasted 6, 7 hours something like
that, in the transcript it comes to over 160, 170 pages basically every
interrogation, what was the purpose of Amos' interrogation when he was extradited
from Ukraine?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Q?
Hon. Barak Nevo: When he is extradited from Ukraine.
Attorney Bar-Oz: What was the purpose? Yes.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: In the end, like any suspect, this is his connection to
the organization, and among other things, during the long interrogations there were
things about him that he had to give a good explanation, a bad one, he, not him?
But an explanation of all these things, action reports and all these things that we
saw and did.
Q: Everything you prepared ahead of time to actually throw it at him, right?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, because look, when Silver arrives in Israel, we are in a situation that is
relatively unusual, because at this stage the State Attorney's Office signs two
indictments that are submitted to the Lod District Court, we are already in the
process of determining the existence of prima facie evidence on some of those
involved in the arrest process, sometimes even the Supreme Court has already
approved the alleged evidence.
A: Okay.
Q: Arik at one point enters Silver's interrogation and shows him 3 decisions of the
Supreme Court that it was determined that there is prima facie evidence, meaning
that you interrogate a person with a full factual thesis signed by the state in the
background, it is already dealt with in court and I ask you whether there is
anything in what Amos says or can say that can change this thesis? That now they
will erase parts of the facts of the indictment, change the provisions of the
legislation, reduce the criminal organization, for example? Is there anything in
what he says that could explain this?
A: First of all, I'll say that I don't really know what was written in all these
decisions, in all seriousness, absolutely true, yes, but I think that all I talked
to Amos in the interrogations was the achievement and discourse of most things, not
necessarily.
Q: Help whom?
Hon. S. Barak Nevo: Not in shig and discourse.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR-BENYAMIN: He didn't necessarily answer, but I still
think it was very important to show and ask, yes, I think it did mean something.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You came with the questions prepared in advance in some cases,
right, you, not you in your interrogations?
A: In accordance with the investigation, like.
Q: Yes.
A: Yes.
Q: It's not that it was dynamic, you came up with some kind of set.
A: Part part, there was a general structure, but part part, yes.
Q: Okay. The emphasis on the investigative pan, who gives? The cyber people are
responsible for this, someone else from the task force?
A: My commanders.
Q: Your commanders, cyber.
A: My commanders, my commanders.
Q: Okay. Do when you research.
A: I don't know what's around, I personally have the emphasis.
Q: Talk only about you.
A: So the emphases came from the command.
Q: Great. You have been asked to investigate.
Hon. S. Brody: Wait, maybe just before you went to Amos's interrogation, did you
sit down, consult about the lines of interrogation or what you were asking for,
instructions or something like that?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: First of all, there must have been instructions from
the command at a general level, but not instructions to 'say so, say so.'
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, not on an individual level.
A: More to ask, more.
Hon. H.S. Brody: On a more fundamental level?
A: Yes, more to ask, more to say, of course.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: We go over the questions before I go in and ask.
Q: Now look, beyond the fact that there is already a factual thesis to which the
state is a signatory.
A: Yes.
Q: Silver's thing is a little different because you think he's already spoken, he's
spoken in interviews, he's spoken in posts, he's made no secret of the fact that
he's the face of Tallgrass, he's said it everywhere, even with a certain degree of
pride.
A: Okay.
Q. For what he did, right?
A: Okay.
Q: And you also have the Ukraine investigation that you're using, right? As far as
you are concerned, for all intents and purposes, things he said there?
A: I don't remember whether or not I used the interrogation, if you say, I really
don't remember mentioning, but if you say I did, then.
Q. He even told you a few times.
A: It's listed.
Q. I can refer to you, 'It was an illegal interrogation, you violated my right to
counsel, I'm not referring to anything you say there.'
A. I didn't say he didn't say, I said I didn't remember.
Q. He said this in response to you telling him, 'In Ukraine, you said such-and-
such.'
A: Again I'm telling you, if you say it's written down to you, I don't remember
saying, I didn't say he didn't tell me it was illegal.
Q: Okay. When you sit down and interrogate someone you suspect of heading a
criminal organization, a serious investigation, no, there were a few who were
interrogated in Israel on such serious suspicions, do you mean questions about the
characteristics of a criminal organization?
A: I don't know what, I don't really know that I don't know what the
characteristics of a criminal organization are so I can't tell you, so probably
not.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So how can you interrogate him about suspicion that he is part of
a criminal organization if you don't know what the characteristics are?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, he asked me about characteristics.
A: Are there the offenses, the offenses that I suspected him yes because I know
from what I did and checked and this, to tell you that this or that offense is also
related to a criminal organization? I get it, what does it mean? I don't know how
to explain it to you, there are offenses he's suspected of, I've got the stuff.
Hon. Barak Nevo: But the same offenses can be committed within the framework of a
criminal organization, the offense is the same offense but there is the additional
envelope in which they are accused of the managers here that should have an
additional character, this is the whole issue of a criminal organization, how can
you distinguish between those who commit the offense within the framework or as
managers of a criminal organization and those who do not if you do not know what
the characteristics of a criminal organization are?
A: I investigated according to the given offenses that they saw that it was
possible, a criminal organization or not a criminal organization, I also had a
shell above me that they saw yes a criminal organization or not a criminal
organization is not me and I decided, 'Well, now because I say it's a criminal
organization.'
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, but when you check the components.
A: Of the offenses.
A: So I know how to make this offense appropriate, this offense is appropriate,
this offense, if you tell me the whole complex belongs to a criminal organization?
Ok.
Hon. Barak Nevo: The dressing of something as part of the activity of a criminal
organization or that someone manages in a criminal organization is something
additional, it's like I know what, receiving something fraudulently and receiving
something fraudulently under aggravated circumstances so it is not enough for you
to show receiving something fraudulently if he is also charged with aggravating
circumstances, you also have to address the question of what are aggravating
circumstances.
A: Right, but it's not OK, 'This is a characteristic of a criminal organization,
this is a characteristic of a criminal organization, this is a characteristic of a
criminal organization, OK, let's find things that are suitable for a criminal
organization.'
Hon. Barak Nevo: No.
A: It's not like that.
Hon. Barak Nevo: But you.
A: It would be offenses if they were created into a criminal organization scenario,
OK.
Hon. Barak Nevo: It is not.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, but what we are, what the judge says and I also think at the
same time, especially when there are offenses that are less known, is an offense
that you dealt with less.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The question is whether there wasn't some kind of legal guidance,
wait, let's say we know that really one of the characteristics of a criminal
organization according to case law is that the Supreme Court should have some kind
of hierarchy for example, that is, if that's one of the characteristics you have to
ask, 'Does it exist?' Or in an example, I don't want to go into this case now what
are the characteristics, But let's say in the example given by the judge, an
aggravating circumstance, let's say fraudulently, can be the amount, can be the
method, can be the nature of the victim, the multiplicity of offenses, so you have
to question a person about these things, the question of whether you were aware of
the characteristics of a criminal organization in a sense, there is also the law
and there is also the ruling of the Supreme Court.
A: I'm not aware of the ruling, I'm aware of the general characteristics, as they
said.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What, for example?
A: Exactly.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The Hierarchy.
A: I remembered that because you just said.
A: The matter of.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: "I remembered."
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Yes, just like that.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, don't disturb, no, no.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, because wait a second.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Adv. Bar Oz.
A: Wait a second, it's 5 years really at the end of going back, what to do? I don't
deal with such cases.
Attorney Bar-Oz: It was supposed to be to me in a whisper, it wasn't.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: So to whisper he probably doesn't know, it's already
his. But really because you said it already, so yes, it was said, again to tell you
that it was something written to me, so no, I didn't have it.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Well, then no.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Look, let's say we'll talk about the interrogation of 28 August
2019 T/670 You don't need to open it right now, but you come and warn Amos, you're
alone with him in the room, there's no one in the room.
Q. You tell him something like this on page 12, "By commencing," "You are suspected
that from March 2017 to August 17, 2019."
A: Yes.
Q: "You headed a Tallgrass criminal organization, committed offenses" Unclear word,
"action and property to conceal, disguise the source of the identity of rights
holders, places", unclear word, "doing an action under the Prohibition of Money
Laundering Law, use of fraud or subterfuge", unclear words, "under the Income Tax
Ordinance, violations of the Income Tax Ordinance", wait, sorry, "export, import,
export and import, trade, supply of dangerous drugs, Mediation in the business of
dangerous drugs, impeachment of a minor for dangerous drugs, punishments under the
Dangerous Drugs Ordinance, management of a criminal organization, management of a
criminal organization to commit serious offenses, committing an offense within the
framework of a criminal organization under the Law for the Struggle against
Criminal Organizations, obstruction of investigation procedures, conspiracy to
commit a crime, extortion by threats under the Penal Code" and after that you warn
him that he fled at the airport in Kiev "with the assistance of others from the
legal custody in which he was subjected with the intention of impeding the
extradition process", You come and warn him about certain offenses.
A: Good.
Q. And you tell him specifically, 'You run a criminal organization and also
offenses within the framework of a criminal organization.'
A: Okay.
Q: Now you know, what the judge said earlier, you sure know that.
A: Yes.
Q: That running a criminal organization is an independent, independent offense, an
offense for which you can be punished. Beyond that, there are offenses committed
within the framework of a criminal organization that the law says that if it is
determined that there really is an organization, it is twice as much.
A: Good.
Q: If I had a knife as part of a criminal organization, I could get 14 years in
prison, right? Do you know these things?
A: Most of them do.
Q: Okay. Now first you also told the judge about me, when I asked about the
characteristics you said general things.
A: That's right.
Q: When I hear criminal organizations, I think about the Cosa Nostra, the Triador
in China, there really are violent criminal organizations that are penetrating the
arms of the government.
A: Good.
Q: So what were the characteristics that you knew? You told the judge earlier that
you remembered something.
A: No, I said she just said.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He referred to hierarchy.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Regarding the hierarchy.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That's what he did.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Of the hierarchy, were you looking for the hierarchy?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I also looked for the hierarchy, yes.
Q: Okay. See for example on page 19. Look, page 19 line 37, you don't even need to
look at it, you'll hear the question, "Refer me manager, everything doesn't pulse
like clockwork in this organization", what is a pulse like clockwork in this
organization?
A: What did I say?
Q: Yes.
A: What is it in the investigation?
Q: You said.
A: Okay.
Q. You said, "Everything is pounding like clockwork in this organization," what
does that mean? How should an organization knock like clockwork?
A: You read me half a line again, but I am.
Q: That's the question.
A: Okay, but let's say.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Read it all.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You can read, no, it's irrelevant.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Don't make an effort. It means that there is, it means
that there is a manager who defines everything from above, allocates authority to
people.
Q: Okay.
A: This way even for everything and that pulse by heart rate by clock and most of
the time without malfunctions also works exactly as it should, as defined.
Q: Okay, basically like any high-tech company or any organization that has a police
system, a prosecutor's office, anything like that.
A: Without, without carrying out the suspicions that happened at the beginning.
Q: Okay. Well, now you talked about the hierarchy, for that matter, did you
investigate it or did you help investigate others in something related to the
economic characteristics of the organization?
A: Less economic.
Q: Okay.
A: Less I won't say that there may not have been questions about economics, but
less.
Q: Okay. Look, earlier I said that a characteristic of a criminal organization, for
example, at least according to the Supreme Court's ruling and general knowledge, is
for example an attempt to infiltrate the arms of a government, is something that
characterizes criminal organizations.
A: Okay.
Q: Is it checked in this case?
A: I haven't looked into it the matter of, what to do?
Q: There was some indication that Tallgrass was involved.
A: In the end, I'm a cog in the system, I'm not the system.
Q: I'm not disrespecting you like that, I think you're a very high cog in the
system, really.
A: A screw in the system.
Q: I ask.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No one claims that, so why get into it?
Attorney Bar-Oz: I want to know about characteristics.
Attorney Bar-Oz: It's that there is a certain hierarchy.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No one argued that.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, there was something that interested Ran, for example.
Attorney Bar-Oz: There was something that really interested Ran and later you as
well.
The Honorable Barak Nevo: Ran Fleisiger.
Attorney Bar Oz: Fleisiger, Ran There is only one.
Hon. H.S. Brody: There may be things that we don't.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, there are Ran Buganim.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Ran Buganim.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, no. For me he is Buganim and Fleisiger is Ran.
Hon. Barak Nevo: That's why I add the family name every time.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. There was some suspicion even Amos said it in Ukraine that
there was some police guy blade in Telegrass, do you remember such a thing?
Q: Yes.
A: I don't remember me, I don't remember questioning him about it, I remember the
story in general.
Q: A little bit, really in between, something.
A: Yes, I remember the story in general, yes.
Q: Yes.
A: I don't remember.
Q: Did you have any information that there was anyone in the blade who was in
Tallgrass?
A: I don't know how to tell you.
Q: And find something like this? No, I'm telling you no.
A: Okay.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Didn't the investigation turn up anything?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, because there wasn't either.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: My, I don't know how to say, again, in the end, at
least I'm not aware of such a thing.
Q: Okay, a criminal organization, for example, something that characterizes it is
concern and mutual responsibility for the members of the organization, this is also
some characteristic that the Supreme Court noted, for example someone is arrested
so the organization enlists, takes care of the lawyer and the canteen, is it
checked if there is something like that in Telegrass?
A: Are you asking me what went on behind the scenes? I can answer you about things
I did and I checked.
Q: But you're looking into this criminal organization.
A: I'm investigating a central suspect in one cluster, you look at the whole
envelope, ask the command guys who looked at the whole envelope, really me.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, but the question is simpler, we understood that there was
guidance and command, this issue was understood.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And everything, all right, has been explained and understood.
People ask you, did you ask Amos such questions as an example?
A: I thought if I knew about it.
Hon. H.S. Brody: For example, there is the matter of bail.
Hon. S. Brody: For example, on mutual responsibility, shall we say, after all,
other people were arrested before him, did they take care of him for representation
or for other purposes?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't remember, I don't remember asking questions.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Did that come up in the investigation?
A: I don't remember if I really asked such questions, but I certainly didn't check
whether anyone paid for a lawyer or who gave? I haven't checked it.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Not tested, like many characteristics, but it was important to
you.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: That's not what I said.
Q: I say.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He didn't check.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I didn't check.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I say.
A: I didn't say it wasn't tested, I said I.
Q: Not tested by you.
A: It's significant.
Q: Now look, also what the judge said here.
A: It's significant.
Q: Attorney Beilin told me this as well. It's not that you're a small cog in the
system that you're just investigating someone, you sit 9 interrogations every 7
hours with someone who is not only on suspicion, he's already accused in an
indictment that he's the head of the organization, it says in the indictments filed
in April that Amos Silver is such and such and such, meaning it's no longer a
suspicion, it's an accusation not against him against others, But it's a suspicion
that can turn into an accusation and here you are sitting opposite the head of an
alleged organization that in his first investigation in Ukraine spoke, spoke, said
everything, so you are supposed to access these characteristics to these
resolutions of the criminal organization, certainly everything else is clear, it's
not that you revealed anything in its investigations, there are the branches, this
one, everything is already arranged, do you understand what I'm saying?
A: Should I check with him who pays him a canteen?
Q: No, investigating the case as a criminal organization file, all you did with him
in all 9 investigations mainly was to slam him with these posts and references that
we don't even know if it was him who wrote or not, these are things that are
public, meaning there wasn't.
A: Among other things, I also made posts, right, what?
Q: Good. Ok.
A: You know as well as I do that an investigation isn't just about posts.
Q: I'll tell you beyond that, too.
A: Yes.
Q: I think, Lily, that your investigation was very very goal-oriented, not only
were the investigations that you conducted not for the truth, I'm not saying they
were to establish a lie or anything like that, but it was on the mechanical border
just really really even call it bullying or abuse because there was nothing he
would say that could change anything and even when he said you didn't check it and
you were so focused on your thesis that you didn't even You've opened your eyes to
see what's around you and I'll show you a great example of that. Do you connect
with what I'm saying?
A: No.
Q: No, okay. Well, before we get to general things for example. When you
interrogated Amos during the 9 interrogations, was he handcuffed with his hands
behind his back?
A: No, all of a sudden.
Q: Was he handcuffed with his hands in front?
A. No, I remember releasing his handcuffs every time in the interrogation room.
Q. Was he wearing pants?
A: Not legs, hands.
Q. Was he wearing pants during interrogations?
A: My?
Q: Yes.
A: Sure, what do you mean? What question is that?
Q: That's right, that's the way it should, fine. Good. You also didn't let him
smoke a bong while doing it or there was a bong on the table, did you?
A. And he asked, but he didn't.
Q. He asked, but you didn't let him.
A: That's right.
Q: Okay. Good. Look, now I refer you to T/670 barcode 3656 Inquiry dated 28.8.19 I
would be happy if you could give it to him.
Hon. S. Brody: 8, 8?
Adv. Bar Oz: 3656 T/670, I will question him specifically on pages 14.
ATTORNEY HADAD: Transcript.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, of course.
Hon. Barak Nevo: A day-to-day investigation?
Attorney Bar Oz: Transcript. 28 August 2019. I refer only to transcripts of
interrogations.
Hon. H.S. Brody: From 14 to ?
ATTORNEY HADAD: Yes, yes.
Attorney Bar Oz: Never.
Hon. H.S. Brody: From 14 to ?
Attorney Bar-Oz: From page 14 to page 26, I also have these passages here in the
spares that I can give to your honor.
Hon. Barak Nevo: I will be glad. Thank you. Same one twice?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: We will be together. Thank you.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Please.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Defense counsel graciously gave us the part of the transcript.
Attorney Bar Oz: Still not like Sudri who takes care of every judge on the panel,
but okay, little by little.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay, little by little.
Attorney Bar Oz: Little by little. Good. Look, on page 14.
Q: Line 9 is the passage I read to you earlier where you say, "The researchers here
are not suckers."
A: Yes.
Q: Amos tells you "they are a little sahim", you say "not a little" and then you
show him a document marked Amir Lavon from 17 April 2019, this document you will
also read later It is actually some kind of document that concentrates places where
there are indications of minors or children or teenagers.
A: Okay.
Q. And you throw things at him and ask for his reference to these things, so for
example on page 15 above there is some opinion, "A boy came and brought me a branch
from a tree in a bag. What do you mean by child? There's a child trader in
Tallgrass," remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: Great. Now look, actually I understand from the plastering materials that I'll
also show you some examples shortly, when I look at the material itself I see some
emphasis on the words 'children, minors', you can understand that you did it
according to certain search words in the materials.
A: Some of the materials.
Q: Yes.
A: By search terms, yes.
Q: Yes. Ok. Now look, say in the first example, page 15, line 4, says in a review,
"A boy came and brought me a branch from the tree in a bag."
A: Yes.
Q: Now I want to understand, as far as you are concerned, this statement indicates
that the merchant is a minor under the age of 18?
A: I asked a question, I didn't make a statement, I didn't state a fact, there's
also a question mark, I asked.
Q: Do you agree with me that when you write 'child' you mean someone young,
inexperienced, maybe a novice, but not necessarily a minor under the age of 18?
A: It's up for interpretation.
Q: That's right.
A: But I asked 'boy.'
Q: That's right.
A: I gave him a chance here to explain as well.
Q: That's right. By the way, look, you're all your indication that there are
underage traders at all, it's because of the verifications, you see from the
verifications what the date of birth is, in the previous report that we presented
before the break.
A: Yes.
Q: Traders who verified Silver, it's by date of birth, you check under 18, right?
A: Okay.
Q: It's a test.
A: Good.
Q: Without substantively checking with that user whether they actually forged
something, if someone used their data to be a merchant? You don't have any real
knowledge, just like you don't know that the verified dealer was an actual trader,
that the verified one is a minor and there really is a minor trader, you haven't
checked a single one, you haven't gone to a single dealer in this whole case and
investigated him.
ATTORNEY ROM: A. That's not true.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I didn't go.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Oppose.
ATTORNEY ROM: Because there are plenty of traders.
Attorney Bar-Oz: There are foreign cases.
Recorder: Put on a microphone.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: He's talking about a dealer who was allegedly verified as a minor
and go check on him.
Attorney Rom: No, but he says, 'No minor dealer was investigated in this case,'
that's not true.
Attorney Bar-Oz: In Lahav's investigation, not in the foreign affairs files?
ATTORNEY ROM: This is part of the investigation, what do you mean?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, so make no mistake, it's not true, there are foreign files
they collected from the past about which there are also many allegations, we'll get
to them later, they are not minors and some are not dealers, but in the Lahav 433
investigation, there was no collection of previous files with the title Telegrass.
Adv. Beilin: In the Wonder case 1187-05-18 which is a case,
ATTORNEY ROM: But I don't.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Not a single person was interrogated.
Attorney Bar-Oz: The one you brought, I claim you didn't.
Attorney Beilin: The fact that you stated during the interrogation that he was a
minor who was alleged to have trafficked telegrass is something else.
Attorney Rom: But it's already, it's an argument, it's a little funny, because we
know that Tallgrass, Amos Dov Silver runs Telegrass from the day it was founded
until the day of his arrest, so if during this period we have other cases it
doesn't matter, investigations of dealers who traded in Tallgrass.
Attorney Bar-Oz: But sorry, I asked him about him, about his actions.
Attorney Rom: Minors, so why do we need another time?
(Talking together).
Attorney Bar-Oz: But I asked him about his actions.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Just because you caught a minor dealer does not mean that he has
been verified.
ATTORNEY ROM: No, you told him that no such thing was done.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: As a minor trader.
ATTORNEY ROM: So I am.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No.
ATTORNEY ROM: It's not that there isn't.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Second.
ATTORNEY ROM: We have 80 witnesses on this issue.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You.
ATTORNEY ROM: In the indictment.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Lahav 433 Not in the act of withdrawing foreign files You are the
covert and open investigation in this case Have you summoned someone you have
information about who is supposedly a verified trader to ask him, 'Are you a
trader? Sold? Didn't you sell?' questioned on the phone, something like that? You?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I, I, not you, I'm talking me, I'm Shoshan, I'm not.
Q: No, I'm telling you no.
A: Okay.
Q: You collected foreign bags.
A: Whatever you think.
Hon. H.S. Brody: I think we've said that already in the interrogation of the
others.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't, I don't know what others are.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You collected foreign files, I also tell you that from my
examination of the foreign files including the files that Lishansky gave his
opinion, I don't know what to call it, his delusional opinion, he relied on files
that they thought were Telegrass but it turned out that it was the other platforms
on Telegram, you know that there are other platforms on Telegram for drug
mediation, right? Including no weed.
A: Know and.
Q: Yes.
A: And again, not you, I don't.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't know what you are.
Q: Okay. Good. Now you come and interrogate Amos about this document on August 28,
you also refer him.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Not a referrer or a referrer?
Attorney Bar-Oz: You also refer him basically telling him in line 7.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: 7, yes.
Q: "What, when you talk to a child in a high management group, what do you mean?"
Hon. H.S. Brody: We are talking about page 15.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes. So Amos tells you in line 15.
Q: "I'll just correct you it's not written in high management, it's a quote from a
review published in high management", Now, have you been aware of these
distinctions between what is written and what message is passed on to a particular
group?
A. I was aware of everything and if here, as he says, you weren't awake, please,
come explain to me, come and point me to my mistake, I gave him an option for that
as well.
Q: Okay.
A: I said it explicitly here.
Q: Okay. And then you go on, you interrogate him about this issue, you say, "No one
knew the ages," you talk to him about police officers and I continue with you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Page?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Already. Here, page 22.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Page 22. Yes.
Q: Page 22, line 4 You tell him like this, "There's a message here, yes, there's a
message that says in the meantime I, yes, they said here that you're a leftist",
Amos I didn't know that about you, "Not that it's related, but they said, in the
meantime I see a lot of functioning children and everyone started trading just
garbage", you tell him "Merchants who are children, Amos, you understand it's
illegal, Do you realize you're doing something forbidden here?" and then you're
down line 22.
A: Yes.
Q: You tell him, "I'm still glad to hear in that document written more by the user
not available and there is no answer that it's you, Amos, it says among other
things that you owe your principles, but what you might open premium channels and
that's a separate issue", you ask him "did premium channels open at the end?" and
he is silent, but then Amos told you such a thing in line 35, "I can only say that
these pages reinforce my statement that you are not trying to get to the truth but
only to find incriminating angles" and you write "but only try to find
incriminating angles" and then he tells you "and also that the truth is in front of
your face you focus" on the next page "on points where you can try to extort
something incriminating" and then he talks to you and you tell him "give me
examples, Give examples of the obvious and obvious, without cynicism, without a
drop of cynicism", page 23, line 17, now let's go over this thing, this
correspondence that it is also part of the complete barcode of T/670 barcode 3635
in the slam.
Hon. Barak Nevo: T/600?
Attorney Bar-Oz: T/670 and I present this correspondence to you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, did that introduce him to that?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, he presented it to him, I am presenting it now to your honor,
take a look.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He means the interrogator who presented to Amos.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. I give you both part of the correspondence.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Thank you.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Good. Let's go over this conversation for a moment, the same
conversation you threw at him about the sentence "I see a lot of functioning kids
and everyone started trading just garbage" and it was you who got angry with him,
you told him 'managers, traders, you're aware that you're doing something illegal',
look.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Were you with me during the interrogation? Do you know
I was angry?
Q: Accepting, you weren't angry.
A: It's as if you were with us during the interrogation.
Q: Okay. No, specifically here you raised your voice a bit, I remember that, but no
matter, that's not the point here. Look, this conversation is a conversation in a
high management group.
A: Yes.
Q: That actually Silver or the user is not available and there is no answer.
A: Yes.
Q: A copyist of a conversation who was spoken to by another user of a trade named
COKA and from that conversation Amir Lavon took the children's segment and you come
and slam it at him and he tells you the truth in front of your face, 'Come and see'
and you can't understand, so let's go over it.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Is this correspondence part of some drum or what?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, that's all T/670.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Is this attached to the investigation?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, it should be, you also submitted the attachments, right?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: More precisely, this is page 105 of barcode 3635.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Page 105 of the investigation?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: To the investigation itself.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Page? One more time.
The Honourable Barak Nevo: 105.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: This is the investigation that if the investigation is running,
it's 169 pages and that's it.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, what you showed us.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You can also mark this single page as annot, for convenience, I
have no problem.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He says that this is page 105 of T/670.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: I'm looking for it in T/670.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He says page 105.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Good. No, but just for convenience I submitted it, I have no
problem with it also being marked as canon. Let's go over the conversation for a
moment. Look.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait, so if Nun, Judge Tamir, what kind of Nun did we get?
Attorney Bar-Oz: And it should be Nun because I'll refer to this page later as
well, it's a good example.
Hon. H.S. Brody: We're already checking. What are you referring to now?
<#5#>
Decision
N/168.


Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. Be with us, you'll know what we're talking about. Well,
look, COKA says something like this "So I came to offer you 150,000 every month and
I'm your franchisee here, I give 25 tin dealers from my place to work and a few
more who are cannons, it's under your control and it's also under our business,"
Amos replies or is unavailable and there is no answer, "So you want only you to
work in the channel? This I can't allow and you know it, anyone who wants to trade
I want to give them a chance, whoever stings and sells shit will sneak out, like
any mall with stores," so I tell him "Why can't you allow? Let's talk as openly as
possible, you want a free market," to which he replies unavailable and unanswered,
"So what's your solution to creating a monopoly? I'm really not in favor, regarding
the reviews we started filtering reviews by parameters that will reduce fictitious,
of course there is no full control, I'm sorry, it doesn't sound realistic to me to
open a channel without allowing those who want to trade it to need, certainly
150,000 is tempting, but it goes against the basic principle so I will have to
refuse" and then he says "150,000 per month", it means COKA "The right pocket can
promote the idea in the meantime, I see a lot of functioning kids and everyone
started trading just garbage and that's how to channel and take it in the wrong
direction," says unavailable, "You're welcome to donate the amount to us so we can
hire teams," now look.
ATTORNEY ROM: Just tell me what barcode it is?
Adv. Bar Oz: 3635.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: And I repeat, your honor, to the 105th issue.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Maybe Beilin more.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Because my colleague read.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Excuse me, we didn't hear you.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: No, no, I told your honor that it was page 105, but Bar-Oz read
something else at the end.
Hon. Barak Nevo: And isn't it? So what is it?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Isn't that it?
Attorney Bar-Oz: We'll find the exact one, anyway, that's the line you slammed that
I read and that's what's interesting.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Try search words.
Q: Now.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, in the transcript where does it appear?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: That's 108.
Hon. Barak Nevo: 108?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Yes. Because some are in 108 and some are in 105.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay, that's not the point, let's talk about the essence, just
like in the interrogation.
Attorney Bar-Oz: We miss the essence. You slammed him with this sentence, "In the
meantime, I see a lot of functioning children, everyone started trading just
garbage," that's what was important to you, that's what was important to say, now.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: Good.
Q: This conversation, I understand from it, is something much bigger than some
mention of children who, like we said, are children. It bothers me, you talk a lot
today.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Bar Oz, what? He's coming back, I'm telling you, he's coming back
from a break, he's on.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: I said, I told you this.
ATTORNEY SODRY: You didn't listen to me.
Hon. Barak Nevo: I listened precisely.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I actually went today.
Hon. Barak Nevo: I reinforced it, but you didn't like the reinforcement.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. It was important for you to slam him with this sentence that
mentions children, now you will agree with me that children here are not
necessarily minors under the age of 18, it could be that COKA means someone who is
young in the field, who behaves like a rookie, a bison, a green, a child, you know,
Lily?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: And just like when it comes to the truth, I just asked
for an explanation.
Q: Okay.
A: And I asked for an explanation.
Q: Now look, after all, Silver told you during the interrogation, 'You don't look
at the full picture, even when it's under your eyes,' look what's going on here, a
user comes to the dealer and offers to the unavailable and there's no answer.
A: Yes.
Q: Instead of 420 NIS a month, say 10 times 15, 150,000.
A: Good.
Q: 150,000 is almost 300 times what I know 300 times what he can supposedly earn
and he says 'no, I don't want a monopoly, it goes against my principles', what do
you learn from that about the principles of organizing the Tallgrass meeting?
A: Easily the next question was "Okay, come explain to me" The answer was silent.
Q: I ask you.
A: If it's principles, I'm not interpreting Tallgrass.
Q: No.
A: I'm asking a question that will explain to me simply, what's the problem? If
it's like you say, there's no problem explaining it.
Q. You threw the children's sentence at him.
A: That's right.
Q. And he tells you, 'Look at the whole picture, you can't recognize the truth even
though it's under your face.'
A: Okay.
Q: So did you bother to read the context of this sentence?
A. And I was still asking for his interpretation, 'If that's not what I understood,
come, please, give me your interpretation,' that's what was in the investigation.
Q: And now you're not investigating him, now you're testifying in court as part of
the investigative team.
A: I say the same thing.
Q: Sir, as someone who has made 9 investigations against Silver.
A: Yes.
Q: Very long.
A: Yes.
Q: I ask you, as a researcher, what you have learned from this discourse about the
principles of the Tallgrass crime organization.
A: I didn't learn from here the principles of the Tallgrass crime organization.
Q. Don't you learn that money doesn't interest them?
A: No, absolutely not.
Q: How?
A: Absolutely not.
Q: Here's a person who offers 300 times as much, all you have to do is tell him,
'Yes, that's it,' at the touch of a button.
A: I don't.
Q: Isn't that important to know?
A: I don't.
Q: Is it money that drives Telegrass or not?
A: This is very important.
Q: Oh, well?
A: That's what I said. You asked me, 'If you think it's not motivating?', I say no,
that's not what I think. I asked.
Q: You agree with me that money doesn't motivate Tallgrass.
A: No, that's not what I said, I said I don't agree with you, if it's important to
check? Ok.
Q: Okay.
A: I disagree with you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Don't you agree with her name?
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: I don't agree that money doesn't run
Tallgrass.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait.
Attorney Bar Oz: The more money would motivate Tallgrass.
Q: I'm not saying it's the only one, but I don't agree that it doesn't run
Tallgrass.
A: As much as money was interesting to Tallgrass.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Just a second, a second, a second.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You don't think so, Mr. Shoshan.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He says, that's not the case.
Hon. Barak Nevo: The judge asks for a moment.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Sorry, I apologize.
Hon. S. Brody: Wait, you say, let's see what he says, it's not the only thing, but?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I think money does manage.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Good. If.
ATTORNEY ROM: What's more, the feeling, what is it?
Attorney Bar-Oz: If you want to object to him coming out.
ATTORNEY ROM: What does the witness think? No, but with kind regards.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, he asks him what he thinks in order to know how he researched.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: What does the witness think about the line of interrogation?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, that is the question.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He asks him what he thought in order to understand how he is.
ATTORNEY ROM: All right, but in the end, your honor, what.
Attorney Beilin: In the end, an indictment was filed, if he had checked things
there might not have been an indictment?
ATTORNEY ROM: Okay, but we have the investigation and we have the questions.
Attorney Beilin: (speaking in the background) that Amos did not give him solutions
to his suspicions.
ATTORNEY ROM: And we have the thicknessDot and everything is clear.
Attorney Bar-Oz: So I have an idea.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: That's not true.
ATTORNEY ROM: There is no need to ask the witness.
(Talking together).
Attorney Bar-Oz: Let's submit all the material and conclude.
Attorney Rom: No, my colleague will argue in the summaries that the police did not
check the positive things.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Yes, I understand you, I understand you.
ATTORNEY ROM: And she didn't ask the right questions, it doesn't matter.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But he can ask.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He wants to argue beyond that, he claims that even though the
positive things were in front of their faces, they did not develop the
investigation in directions that could illuminate this light and went only in
directions that were illuminated by dark light or there is no such thing as dark
light, but okay.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Why? Seeing beautifully.
Hon. Barak Nevo: We have a society that likes the phrase that he fell 'he poured
darkness on the matter,' you know the phrase 'shedding light on something.'
The Honorable Barak Nevo: "He pours out darkness."
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's what lawyers do.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Not all of them.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Now.
Attorney Haddad: I'll just say that it's T/670, that's what my friends are.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, I said.
Adv. Haddad: Filed the additional anun.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I said.
ATTORNEY HADAD: Yes, yes.
Attorney Bar Oz: No, we marked the separate page in Nun.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He said this is page 108 of T/670 and now we have marked it.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Page 108 and then page 105.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay. Mark it N/168.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: That's 54 pages, not pages from the beginning of T/670.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Excellent. Resolved. Look, further to what my learned friend said
here now defense attorneys, I'll tell you a professional secret, most of the blue-
collar cases that we investigate police officers have investigations that we call
the Why not? "Why not take T.A.? Why didn't you check the cameras? Why didn't you
test DNA, why didn't you test this person?', it's when we have nothing to really
say there will always be why not, always no police officer will do a perfect job,
there will always be 'why didn't you?'
Here it's not an investigation of why not, there's a lot of why not in this
case but it's not why not, it's in front of your eyes and you're investigating the
alleged head of the organization, now you said before, 'little cog' and stuff, no,
you know the case well, you've been involved in it for a year back, you carried out
today they submitted 175 investigative actions that you personally did, Really,
that's the most, I think you're the cyber investigator who did the most actions in
the case personally and therefore of all kinds, by the way, also to the managerial
echelon, also to the less managerial echelon, programmers, messengers, you were
involved in everything and now you're investigating whoever you suspect of being
the head, the issue of minors is a significant issue, after all, of the whole
Telegrass story, it's always the issue of minors and psychedelia, The situation
would be much simpler if we were only in pot and adults for that matter, so on this
cardinal issue through the word children indirectly you came up with a great
example that shows you that the head of the organization supposedly gives up a very
large amount of money, a person asks him for exclusivity even no one will know
about it, no one knows about it, but he closes the channel, By the way, the
context is Haifa, it's the Haifa channel, you can see it first, it closes Haifa to
all the merchants in quotation marks The children who pay 420 and a person comes
and gives him 150,000 You don't think it's important for understanding what
motivates the organization Its economic characteristics, it has no ambition to make
a lot of money and after that the head of the organization allegedly still
publishes this conversation in high management groups, What are you saying?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I say that you and I think differently and that's why I
gave him a chance and told him, 'Come just show me examples, come just explain to
me.'
Q: He gives you examples.
A. He didn't give me examples, he maintained his right to remain silent.
Q. He's telling you the truth in front of your eyes, I read to you.
A: So you want me to interpret the truth? Once again, you and I don't interpret it
anymore.
Q: This conversation is subject to interpretation, Shoshan, Bhayat, is it really
subject to interpretation?
A: I don't think so.
Q: What interpretation? Interpret for me, interpret for me the interpretation of a
criminal organization that works for economic reasons and wants to make money,
interpret for me.
A: I'm just telling you that you and I don't think the same, I'm not going to
interpret what a person thought, I'm not an X-ray here, I'm not some Suchard, I
don't think like you, I gave him a chance to explain.
Q: First of all, your thinking is much higher than mine at least half a meter, I
think, above me.
A: I'm sitting now.
Q: Really, physically.
A: But I'm sitting.
Q: Sitting down, okay.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's a witty dialogue for him.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I'm trying.
Hon. Barak Nevo: And also the results of the break.
Attorney Bar-Oz: But I'm really hard to see, and that's where I'll summarize the
point.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: But I really answer, I answer with the utmost
seriousness.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Advanced.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes, that's where I summarize the point. When I look at this
conversation I who saw it for the first time I was really quite shocked, there's a
great example here of why the supposed lines of thinking of the organization, of
the head, you know, Telegrass would think about what economic potential it would
have if any of the senior executives came and offered it in every industry in the
country, 'Take do you want Jerusalem? Take exclusivity, bring me 150,000, instead
of 420 on Channel Two, that's small money.'
Hon. H.S. Brody: You come and say that there were also.
Attorney Bar-Oz: There was crazy economic potential.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Values are more important than money.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Of course.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That is what you argued in the defense.
Adv. Bar-Oz: Free market, cannabis accessibility and lowering prices.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That's what you're claiming.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right. What do you say about that?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I repeat my answer, I don't agree with you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Values for your approach.
A: I really disagree with you.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. 100%. Good. Now I really have a few more small points left
that I won't open all of them, I say them not only for the record, I'll go over
things with you, and it's all investigations in Israel. Look, I don't even think it
should be in front of his eyes, you can check me while seeing that I'm not
misleading him, but it's a few little things. That's how in the first interrogation
in Israel on 18.8.2019, page 27, line 1, Silver says, "The police attribute things
to me that appear on my Facebook" Investigator Shoshan Binyamin "Yes," interrogated
Amos Dov Silver, "even from the time I was without access on Facebook," this
relates to the report I presented to you before a post came up and you wrote from
his profile, that is, at this point on Facebook, Amos is not silent and he tells
you this, The question is whether, as a result of this statement, there has been
an examination of who posted at certain times according to the IP address, as you
know? I haven't seen a request for such an order beyond August 16.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't know about, I don't know about IP, I don't know
how to answer you, about the Facebook profile documentation that I made every time
I saw that it wasn't and it was also in my reports, that it was just tagged or just
something like that and he didn't write I mentioned it.
Q: Like you mentioned a name from the profile?
A: Yes.
Q. How do you know it's not him who wrote by the way?
A: It says he didn't write and he's just tagged so it's just tagging him and he
didn't write it.
Q: No, for that matter your previous report didn't have a tag, there were posts
from Amos Silver's Facebook account.
A: And if in the sections there was, you showed me this, there was one labeling and
one this.
Q: You're confusing, second, second. It was a discourse within a Telegrass
community within the executive war room, where it was labeled in directions.
A: Yes. And what does Article B, Section 2 say?
Q: This is a post.
A: Whenever it was, when it was, I documented who wrote it.
Q: Lily Please note, the tag is no problem, here you say 'a post written by Gali
Amar, tagged Amos', no problem is the tagging, I'm talking to you about this one, a
post in which it was written in the profile of Amos Silver A, B, C, so the question
is.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What is the document? What is the document he presented to you?
Attorney Bar-Oz: It's T/607, take it.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Is that also a drum?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Same one.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes, we talked about him earlier.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, yes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Before, it was 670.
Attorney Bar-Oz: So the question is whether some kind of such examination was done
to check whether posts were written from the Facebook account profile, did he
actually write them or was it someone else?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I documented the profile.
Q: Good.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I documented the profile.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. Now look, are there good quotation marks things Amos did at
Tallgrass?
A: I think he kept all the guys here.
Q: Is that good?
A: That's good for him.
Q: What is Shemer?
A. I, the way he did it's good for him it has nothing to do with whether he's good
or not good at it, everything he didn't answer, didn't give me a version.
Q: Not good in the philosophical sense of the word, good for a suspect or defendant
who doesn't incriminate friends. By the way, is there any indication that Amos
Silver knew any of the users who were managing Telegram by name, met him face to
face? After all, this whole operation, this whole operation was that he was in the
United States, I ask you, is there such an indication? He couldn't do it anyway.
A: I don't remember I don't remember telling you if there was an indication before
or not, but it has nothing to do with what I said.
Q: Well, I'll refer you to T/664 interrogation of 20 August 2019, page 62, line 11.
A: Good.
Q: You tell Amos.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Page 62?
Attorney Bar Oz: Line 11. You say, "I don't hide from the court about the good
things you do."
Hon. H.S. Brody: What day is that? Excuse me.
Adv. Bar Oz: 20 August 2019.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, all right.
Attorney Bar-Oz: This is T/664.
Hon. H. Brody: Page 62, line 11.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, you say, "I don't hide from the court the good things you
do," so now we're in court.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: What did we talk about before that, but remind me?
Q: Good things Amos does.
A: I don't remember.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What do you mean?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: What we talked about before that, if I said it then he
probably said something to me, it was.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No problem.
A: Can you see that?
Q: But I'm asking you today. Give him everything to have everything in front of his
eyes, no problem.
Hon. H.S. Brody: I guess it came in continuation of something.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Coming later on to something apparently.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Look, that's not the issue here, but for example.
A: Why? If he did good things, what am I hiding? So he did good things, huh?
Q: That's what I'm asking, I want to know where the good things are expressed?
A: So I want to see what we talked about.
Q: Please. I'll give you examples that will probably be part of it, I appreciate.
For example, donations to needy people who have a cannabis license don't have money
to buy, was there a mechanism for donations to those in need?
All the time.
A: What page did we say?
Q: 62 line 11. Here, go up, go up. Look, on page 6 Amos says something like this,
in line 6, "I'm sure that in what you submit to the prosecution you will also write
a lot about my helping people."
A: Wait, where are you reading from? One more time, sorry, where are you reading
from? Sorry again, what line?
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Line 6.
Attorney Bar Oz: Line 6, I took back, you wanted the context.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Yes, I wanted to.
Q: So Amos says this, "I'm sure that in what you submit to the prosecution you will
submit to the court you will also write a lot about my help to people, I'm sure you
will devote to it," Shoshan Binyamin interrogates, "Cynicism, what? Amos: Correct
me if I'm wrong. Lily: Oh, I don't hide from the court about the good things you
do.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, you didn't say hiding.
Attorney Bar-Oz: So I ask you what are the good things he does?
Hon. H.S. Brody: "I didn't say hide," he tells him.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, so I ask you, what are the good things he does?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Again I say, I don't.
Q: Because it didn't end up in court, it kind of fell through.
Hon. Hashem Tamir: Now it has come.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I think everything I know about Amos made it to court,
including everything.
Q: You guys were looking.
A: I, I, talk to me, I don't know what you are, me.
Q: Second, you're a lily.
A: Beautiful.
Q: You've searched all 3 1/2 terabytes of digital evidence that you have.
A: Yes.
Q: Donations, bots in need, help for the weak, donations to animal welfare, beyond
the initial search for indictment and money laundering?
A: Even if I didn't search specific and it was it is unequivocally documented.
Q: Okay.
A: And then everything I document goes to court, so I don't hide anything from a
courtroom.
Q: Have you taken any active action on this issue? In search words, you searched
about the minors, psychedelia, money, donations, help, these are things that I
think are positive, so I ask do you understand that from your 175 investigative
actions, you did anything about the good things you said to Amos that you would not
hide from the court?
A: Again I say, it's also busy here, I didn't hide anything from the court and I
didn't go.
Q: But the fact is that it didn't come.
A: I didn't go.
Q: There are no action reports on these things, you haven't taken action to check
them.
A: So you want me to write an action report, eh?
Q. I want you to investigate the truth, that's all.
A: That's what I do.
Q: As it is.
A: That's what I do, I investigate crimes, that's what I do.
Q: The study of the truth, you said, the study of the truth.
A: Fine, exactly, I investigate crimes to get to the truth, if he didn't do any of
the offenses I would also say, this is his explanation and the command would decide
yes or no.
Q: Look, I'm very pleased with your answers today, I'll also tell you why, there
are offenses that are black or white, 0 or 1, stabbing or stabbing, shooting or not
shooting, and there are offenses whose characteristics are partly legal complex,
here today on the podium you found it difficult to explain what a criminal
organization is, the whole State of Israel hears that Tallgrass is a criminal
organization.
A: No, you asked me if I had tested all the features.
Q: Characteristics of a criminal organization you didn't know how to answer, after
they helped you you said 'hierarchy'.
A: Thank you for helping me.
Q: That's right. But I think it's very basic that in serious and complex offenses
the investigator has to understand the characteristics and investigate and get to
the truth not only about what you believe is an offense but about the whole
picture, just as you completely ignored this big thing and dealt with the word
'children.'
A: I didn't ignore anything and everything I documented I'm sure it was submitted
to the court.
Q. Say, if I'm telling you now, I'm telling you with me.
A: Yes.
Q: That 99% of the money Tallgrass put in was donated to the needy or sick, would
that make a difference to you?
A: So you say, don't know right wrong.
Q: I ask you, take it as a given, would it change anything for you?
A: It was reflected in what I write.
Q: Okay. So I'm telling you that Amos said in Ukraine that they donated 4 kilos of
cannabis every month.
A: Yes.
Q: More than NIS 100,000 worth to the needy.
A: How does this relate to my investigation?
Q: You don't interrogate him, you don't follow-up.
A: Amos said.
(Talking together).
Amos said in Ukraine, ask those who interrogated him in Ukraine.
Q: You interrogate him in 4 interrogations.
A: What do you want from me?
Q: Only about Ukraine, in Ukraine you said so, in Ukraine you said, I don't want to
beat up the lineup, you know that.
A: Everything I researched, everything I did extraction was documented, okay? I
presented, as I had also promised Amos.
Q: Well, that's the answer, I understand, okay.
A: I presented it to the court.
Q: Okay.
A: That's right, that's the answer.
Q: Okay. The point is clear. Look, okay. On page 84 of that questioning on Q/16,
basically what precedes Q/16 is that you throw at him the exhibits filed today
regarding Facebook posts, which are from 2017, 2018, and Silver tells you in line
13, "I'm upset that you don't go further back," so you ask him, "What's backward?"
Hon. H.S. Brody: Page, page?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Page 84 of the same drum.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, wait, second.
Adv. Bar Oz: T/664 Interrogation of 20.8.19, page 84, line 16. I don't think it has
to be in the transcript, I'll read every word.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Silver tells you, "I'm upset that you don't go further backward,"
you answer him, "What is backward?" Silver, "2013, 2012," you ask him, "So what
will we see? Come tell me what her name looks like?" Silver tells you "the basis of
everything", you say to him "what is your delinquency?" he replies "to delinquency,
to cowardice", I open parentheses.
Q. It's because you told him he was a coward that he kept his right to remain
silent, do you remember that?
A: I said.
Q: 'Bunny,' not a coward, a bunny, a coward yes.
A: Bunny I said.
Q: Yes, Bunny, you said.
A: Yes, well?
Q. So he tells you "delinquency or cowardice."
A: Good.
Q: And then he continues, "Lily: I ask, I ask, what are you offended? I ask," Amos
says, "if I was offended by you or or. Lily researcher: what or? What would happen
if you were offended? Well, after your funny puns "If I was in a situation where I
was offended by you I wouldn't stop being offended", he comes and tells you "check
2012, 2013 as the base", what does he mean?
A: Great question, I'm just looking for all the interrogations from him to give me
something as far as the investigation is concerned, he maintains his right to
remain silent.
Q: Great answer.
A: No.
Q: Then he directs you to his Facebook page.
A: Yes.
Q: For the years 2012, 2013 you check the basics of how it all began, he refers
you, here, he doesn't shut up, he tells you.
A: And what did I ask during the interrogation? Come tell me what?
Q: Lily.
A: Let's explain.
Q: Lily, he directs you to an open source of information to check the basics, you
know.
A. I don't remember if I checked it in the reports, b. I thank him.
Q: You haven't checked.
A. That he gave me assignments.
Q: You didn't check 2012, 2013, I checked, I'll submit it to the judges.
A: Excellent.
Q: But the thing is, some of the characteristics of a criminal organization.
A: Yes.
Q: According to the Supreme Court ruling in the Zuaretz (Abutbul) case, Shorafi is
a motive and the purpose of organizing is part of the characteristics of a criminal
organization, what motivates it? What is the purpose of organizing? And Amos comes
along and says, as he said in interviews, as he said in other posts, 'I came here
from a place of ideology, of legalization, of legal actions, which I tried to read
aloud and then when I came to the conclusion that it doesn't work, I worked to
change the legal norm by changing the social norm that will see everyone come out
of the closet We smoke cannabis, this is how we will make it legal.' Now it's
almost legal, did you go check out the posts from 2012, 13?
A: I don't remember if I did have any action reports.
Q: I'm telling you no.
A: Okay.
Q: And it's a shame you didn't because you might have understood more about the
motive and purpose of organizing the Tallgrass meeting.
A: Okay.
Q: Good. Look, Attorney Beilin drew my attention, you want him to be much more
effective than bringing water, you keep saying that you ask questions so that Amos
will give explanations and when he does give explanations and refer you to an open
source of information.
A: Yes.
Q. You didn't check it either, and you answered here in court, 'I thank him for
giving me assignments.'
Speaker: Cynically.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Cynically.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Completely cynically.
Q: Here it is an investigative mission, it is to check, it is to tell the motive
for the purpose of organizing.
A: I didn't say it wasn't tested or it did, I said I don't remember, you say.
Q: I say it's not tested.
A: Okay, what do you want to say? I don't remember.
Q: As far as you're concerned, it's some kind of task that the suspect gives you in
the process.
A: It's not, it doesn't mean I haven't updated or passed on, I don't remember if I
checked.
Q: Okay. All right. Now, we are in the same investigation.
Hon. Barak Nevo: The same investigation in 607 or 664?
Adv. Bar Oz: 664.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Page?
Attorney Bar-Oz: On page 95, line 27, you tell him something like this, "I present
you with a document marked Shoshan Binyamin 8 from 13.12.18" Unclear word, "Among
other things, you wrote that this should be our project sometime to encourage
professional growers" Unclear words, "Ahh. Professional growers Or rather you
didn't mean gardening, did you? Questioned Silver: What didn't I mean? Shoshan
Binyamin researcher: Gardeners in the field encourage professional growers, what
are they supposed to grow? Amos Silver sighs", I stop here, it's a good thing he
didn't tell you MDMA, what do you understand from Silver writing "we should
encourage growers"?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I want him to explain to me what it means, exactly what
it says here, give me an explanation what, you meant something.
Q: What do you understand from Amos Silver saying, "We want to encourage
professional growers"? This ties into the point I talked about earlier.
A. I understand that I'm not going to read people's minds, I have something I want
to get an explanation about, I ask the suspect to explain it to me.
Q. You are presenting evidence that you believe is relevant otherwise you would not
talk to him about it, what do you think of it? What do you think of the evidence as
a researcher? After all, you have whatever it is, a certain direction that you want
to attack, strengthen it, emphasize it that you throw at it.
ATTORNEY HADAD: I object to the question, the witness has already answered and the
witness does not have to say what he thinks about this or that evidence, especially
when he actually asks Defendant 1 the questions and expects an answer.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay, I'll skip the question, no problem.
Hon. Hashem Tamir: The jury will disregard.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I would answer, but it's a shame that it will ruin everything for
me.
ATTORNEY HADAD: Will ruin the next question.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, that's not what I meant.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Are we nearing completion?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, yes. Ok. Take a look at this page.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: What page is this?
Q: 163.
A: 163.
Hon. Barak Nevo: We still are.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't have him here.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: No, we passed.
Hon. Barak Nevo: 664 Still?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, T/665 21.8.2019, I said.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Yes, no, because it's 64 here.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But you have to tell us that later we are.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I apologize.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, we don't.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Yoni, can you, please, be 65?
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right. So read what you need.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Or say the point.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You're talking to him here about basically the subject of.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's again a question, why didn't you check that? Such a thing?
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, no, actually, substantively, I'm talking about the essence of
Tallgrass.
Hon. H.S. Brody: On?
Attorney Bar Oz: The essence.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You're talking to him here about the sanction that the Telegrass
system can apply and also about the purpose for which the details of the dealers
are allegedly collected, page 165, do you see?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Not yet, I'll see soon.
Q: Look at this for a minute, tell me, what exactly is the only sanction that
Tallgrass can do? Let's say there are organizations that have assassins, there are
organizations that plant IEDs, there are organizations that throw grenades, what
sanction can a Telegrass criminal organization employ? It's not in dispute, it's
also written in the indictment, you can say.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Tell him briefly what he says there.
Attorney Bar-Oz: He knows.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: What is the question?
Q: What sanction can Telegrass do?
Hon. H.S. Brody: What Amos delivers.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I, no, I won't go into details, I won't.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Why?
A: That's because I'm not running a Tallgrass organization, they can do.
Q: No, you are investigating the alleged head of the Telegrass organization.
A: Beautiful and according to what.
Q: That's where he answers you.
A. Just direct me exactly where he answers me?
Q: 163.
A: What line?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, he's saying something.
Attorney Bar Oz: From line 24.
Hon. Hashem Tamir: A wall of shame.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That there is shaming.
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Okay.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes. You know this, I don't tell you this, the only sanction of
the Telegrass criminal organization is the wall of shame.
Q: It's the weapon of shaming, those who have gone wrong can bring up a name.
A: Okay.
Q: Right?
A: I can disagree with you, so I disagree with you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Disagree?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Why don't you agree?
THE WITNESS, Maj. Benjamin: Because.
Q: You can whatever you want, but you have to be reasoned.
A: Throughout the interrogation here, too, line 3, line 4, we don't just talk here,
why? We're not just talking about shaming here.
Q. Do you want me to tell you what he wrote? You don't want to believe me.
A: No, it's not, no, but wait, wait, seriously minute.
Q: Yes. Seriously.
A: I'm checking and everything and if I have like things that speaker number 1
here, I don't remember who it was, but violent or forceful but they took things out
of him that he stole, all kinds of things, I want to know, is that you're shaming
me, okay.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, I didn't understand the answer.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I say, I want to check, the one he told me.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, that's fine, the question, sorry.
A: Please.
Hon. S. Brody: You asked to look into this point, that's fine, the question is,
what emerged from the investigation? That's all he asks.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, right.
Hon. H.S. Brody: So we saw on page 163 that there is the wall of shame shaming.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What they want to tell you is that basically you will agree with
the defense attorney that this is not the use of violence or things of that nature,
if you say that there are additional sanctions.
Hon. H.S. Brody: According to what the investigation has shown.
THE WITNESS, Maj. Benjamin: No, I'm just.
Hon. S. Brody: No, so look and read, that's fine, it will also be before us, if you
can in a reasonable period of time review and say whether Amos also listed other
sanctions?
Attorney Bar-Oz: I can direct you.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, there is no need, I can read.
Q: Okay. As you read, I will also say that you can read all 2,000,000 pages of this
dossier.
A: No, I'm reading a page.
Q: You still won't find any other sanction.
A: Okay.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: Wall of shame.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Not a firing wall, I'll direct you, the question is like this,
Lily.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I'm listening to you, I'm really listening to you.
Q: How many complainants did you investigate in this case?
A: I didn't investigate.
Q: You didn't investigate.
A: I didn't investigate complainants.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait, just maybe we'll just complete the previous answer that he
doesn't agree that this is the only sanction.
Hon. Barak Nevo: And we need him to tell us what else is there?
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's why I want to direct him, but okay, I'll sit down.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So maybe you'll let him direct you, don't you want to?
The witness, Sergeant Benjamin: No, happily, he started directing me, I don't have
a problem.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Tell him.
Attorney Bar-Oz: So you personally didn't take testimony from complainants in this
case who complained about violent offenses, right?
Q: There was someone who claimed.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Was the issue of violence even on the agenda? Was?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Good question. Lily.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Has anyone talked about that? Was this direction even relevant?
That is the question.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I am again.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Do you remember?
A: It's a net memory, I'm telling the truth, I remember there was also a matter of
violence in the matter of the wall of shame, to commit.
Hon. H.S. Brody: On the matter? Yes.
A: Of the wall of shame, to guarantee that it was unequivocal? I am only according
to my memory.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I read and according to my net memory.
Q: I want to be precise.
A: Please.
Q: In the indictment in Section 47A and B, Mr. Silver is attributed separately from
all the other defendants 2 offenses of extortion by threats, one offense of
extortion by threats, refer to a post he wrote on 5 May 2019 in which he tells
about a conversation with the mother of a minor, do you know?
A: Yes.
Q: Great. The second incident is a post that he is accused of.
(pause).
Hon. H.S. Brody: Resumption of discussion after a short break and Adv. Bar Oz
continues. Yes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Yes, it's really towards the end as well. So just going back to
the point where the microphone was disconnected, we talked about the issue of
complaints of Tallgrass violence.
Hon. Barak Nevo: You started asking him about 2 offenses of extortion by threats.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right, right. So there is some kind of event.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, I wanted to say something, I meant after the break.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, that's right, he asked and you haven't had time to answer
yet.
A: Yes, exactly.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Do you remember what he asked?
Attorney Bar-Oz: So what's the answer?
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR-BENYAMIN: No, I just wanted to address before the break
when Her Excellency asked about the issue of violence.
A: Then on page 166.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR-BENYAMIN: I say in advance, I don't know who made this
transcript, but you can see that it's the suspect's answer and not the No. 1
speaker because.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Defendant No. 1's answer in this case, not the suspect.
A: Yes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: What line? 166?
THE WITNESS, Maj. Benjamin: No, page 166, line 24.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What's there? Interesting.
A: It says, "Not anchored in the state, there is grounded violence that is the
police, we have this violence."
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right, right.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: "But you have to protect," wait a minute, "protect
people from violent people who hurt," and at the end there are more things you can
read if you want, "It was requested in this situation that we operate in a space
where we do not have the ability to defend ourselves with the help of the police
and we have to do it in other ways and yes even if it comes to violence it is
necessary, If there are gods on the other side, I won't be impressed."
Q: Excellent.
A: "I will not be impressed by the violence against him."
Q: Excellent.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What line is that?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: 24.
Attorney Bar-Oz: I also agree with you that you are not saying that. In fact, what
is being said here is that one of Telegrass's goals is some kind of protection for
cannabis consumers, Amos says this in interviews as well.
A: You asked if it wasn't just shaming, you said it was just shaming.
Q: Yes.
A: So I told you it's an example that it's not.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What he says he doesn't deny, that's not the rule, but he says.
Hon. H.S. Brody: "If necessary, that's what."
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, no, it's not just not deceiving.
Q: Mind you, you're missing something here.
A: Okay.
Q: Look. What does Silver tell you? I'll tell you "Cannabis consumers who are about
1,000,000 people in the State of Israel are forced to break the law in order to get
cannabis" So, today it's a different story, "So instead of them getting into
trouble with drug dealers with the potential for violence who will sting them,
beating them, Telegrass its goal, among other things, is protecting consumers" And
then her weapon, yes, is shaming, shaming, uploading movies, Incidentally, in the
same incident there was also an allegation of extortion by violence.
A: But that's not what I said at all.
Q: Second. That's what he says, I explain to you. It was a story of the threat in
quotation marks was to raise to the wall of shame also with Noam Burns The story
was a threat in quotation marks to raise to the wall of shame This is actually the
only sanction of Tallgrass, those who complain You told me about violence, besides
there were other cases, physical cases that came to you victims?
A: You said if I thought there could be other things and I showed you that yes,
that's what I did, after all other than shaming.
Q: Look, I think it's also subject to interpretation.
A: Okay.
Q: Because threatening shaming I doubt it's violence to me, okay? But won't we get
into philosophical categories here, physical violence, beatings, kicks, was there
something like that in organizing the Tallgrass meeting?
A: "Even if it comes to violence, it is necessary, if there are violent people on
the other side, I will not be impressed by the violence against them."
Q: I ask,
A: Say what you want violence, I, for me shaming alone is not violence, it's my
personal opinion.
Q: I agree with you.
A: I see violence as something else.
Q: I agree with you and I ask.
A: Or it's not just violence.
Q: I ask again about the evidence, after all, you worked on this case.
A: I told you, I didn't investigate others.
Q: Forget it, do you know from the 170 exhibits that there is any evidence of
violence? I ask you.
A: I don't remember the 170 exhibits I checked, do you want me to go through the
170 exhibits? I'll go over them one by one and I'll tell you if there's evidence of
violence.
Q: You're really a teddy bear no not today, Lily, really. Too bad. After all, you
know that there are no complainants or victims or violence in this case, why not
say that? Do you want to go through the 170 exhibits? Go.
A. If that's what it takes for me to do it and say unequivocally, then I'll say yes
what?
Hon. S. Brody: What Attorney Bar-Oz is actually telling you, he shows you that he
is saying that the use of violence was not the sanctions that did not use violence,
apparently except for what you just described and there are 2 other charges there,
they are not addressed, but this is one thing, nevertheless they are 2 incidents
for which it is probably claimed that yes, but as a rule all the behavior were any
indications of the use of violence other than what we just discussed?
Hon. Barak Nevo: He says that this sentence that Bar-Oz interprets as violence that
Amos meant is shaming, so he says, 'In my eyes, shaming is not violence.'
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, that's clear.
Hon. Barak Nevo: And if he talked about violence, then he meant something else.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But the question is at all.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: And that's the explanation I wanted from him.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, violence in general, from what you checked in the file was?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Have you encountered acts of violence?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Physical, non-verbal violence?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Beyond this statement?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, but the 2 examples he gave here and he presented
for me is enough for me.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He hasn't said yet, he hasn't said yet.
A: He said about Burns.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, he said about the 2 charges.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay, that is.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Extortion by threats.
Hon. S. Barak Nevo: And Burns.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: For me, it's a form of violence.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait a second, so just make this connection, the sections you
talked about 47A, 47B is Noam Barnes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: To the best of my recollection. The post is dated May 5, 17.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait.
Attorney Bar-Oz: It says in the indictment.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Good. It's a matter of both dimensions and dimensions. OK, it will
be possible to argue at the end.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Okay. Now.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The facts exist and what they mean.
Hon. H.S. Brody: We'll leave something for dessert.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No, after all, we are accused here of extortion by threats, we
have to defend ourselves against this serious charge.
Hon. H.S. Brody: No, all right. But your line of inquiry was now more in the lines
of action of the organization, not only.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right, that's right, Madam is right.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Shankoon.
Adv. Bar Oz: 100%. And from the general outlines of the violence, let's go into
detail for a moment about the issue of blackmail by threats against Noam Burns.
Look, do you remember Noam Burns' story?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: There's no way I'll remember, I need what they did.
Q: I'll remind you.
A: Please.
Q: There was a competing platform called weed4you there too (unclear).
A: Okay.
Q: Weed4you, the people who ran it were 2 one named Moshe Edri and the other Noam
Barnes.
A: Good.
Q: Do you remember something like that?
A: I remember the name, sure.
Q: Great. There was a platform unlike Telegrass that also according to the state
system mediated, yes, assisted brokers and did not profit from transactions
weed4you obliged its dealers to sell in branded bags that it cost a certain price
per bag, meaning the system profited from each transaction.
A: Good.
Q: Okay? Familiar? Advertised herself. Now, do you disagree? This is written in
your indictment.
ATTORNEY SODRY: It's written in an indictment.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Want to file the indictment?
Hon. Barak Nevo: I think the indictment was filed, doesn't it?
Attorney Rom: We will use the testimony of Noam Barnes.
Attorney Bar-Oz: No problem, no problem. I'm waiting for it by the way. Ok.
weed4you is actually, according to the claim.
Q: Two managers who were at Telegrass in the beginning, Noam Barnes and Moshe Edri.
A: Good.
Q: That they opened the network, that they left, so there was a kind of conflict,
Noam Burns' user is Mary Jean Lawrence, now I'll read to you a few things from the
investigation of 25 August 2019, T/668.
No, I'm talking about Noam. You forgot to submit one of the transcripts of
the August 25th interrogation, you submitted a short transcript of 9 pages and not
the 120 pages.
ATTORNEY BEILIN: There are 2 transcripts, one of 9 pages and one of 120.
Attorney Bar-Oz: You're lucky I'm here, believe me.
Adv. Haddad: Ran Fleisiger's?
Attorney Bar Oz: What is it? No, you know what could be, no, but it's a lily, you
may have served it with a placeger, in practice it's a lily.
Hon. Barak Nevo: It's lucky that they're here too.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: We are not alike at all.
Attorney Bar-Oz: That's right. Good. So if it's a playsiger then refer us, 25.8
transcript of more than 100 pages, what's the thumb? A/471B That's the transcript,
OK.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What is happening there in T/471B? What do you want to refer to?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Page 81.
Hon. H.S. Brody: What do we have there?
Attorney Bar-Oz: Noam Barnes, sorry, it starts on page 80 even. Ok. This I begin to
read to you, in line 23.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Is it on page 80 or 81?
Attorney Bar Oz: 80, is it 80? 80. You say to him thus, "Do you want to tell me the
nature of the relationship between you and Mary Jane and Lawrence?".
Hon. Barak Nevo: Mary Jane and Lawrence?
ATTORNEY SODRY: Lawrence.
Attorney Bar-Oz: It should, yes, even though it should be.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Is it 2 names or 2 names?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay. So who is Lawrence and who is Mary Jane?
Attorney Bar-Oz: I will already give answers.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Sure.
Attorney Bar-Oz: Good.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Well, so who is Jane and Lawrence?
Attorney Bar Oz: Lawrence is Noam Burns, Mary Jane is the other Edri.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Really?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Did they become roles?
Hon. H.S. Brody: And Mary Jane, you can't hear, what?
Attorney Bar Oz: Mary Jane is a nickname for marijuana.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Really?
Hon. H.S. Brody: And what is the second?
The Hon. Barak Nevo: Mary Jane and Lawrence.
Attorney Bar Oz: And also a friend of Spider-Man. Good.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: How much general knowledge is there.
Hon. S. Brody: Okay, so what do we have here?
Attorney Bar-Oz: "Do you want to tell me about the nature of the relationship
between you and Mary Jane and Lawrence? There wasn't too much relationship" and
then Shoshan says "I'd love to find briefly" and then Amos says "It's also backed
up by screenshots that I think were posted" and then Amos tells you like "I'll tell
you what I do know, Lawrence would send me videos of her in minimal clothing, one
day she wrote that I had a screenshot of Amos", an unclear word, "All the
correspondence I remember by the hours", She tells you in short he tells you a
story that she posted a video of him in some intimate position or naked or naked
and he links it to the issue of blackmail by threats and complains to her and says,
"I think it's a criminal offense" In another interrogation he also talks to Ran
about it and says 'I'm filing a complaint, this is my complaint', remember that
thing?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I believe, I don't remember to tell you.
Q: The question is whether this was examined in any way in his complaint against
Noam, against Noam Barnes in the context of her offense against him, which
coincided with the alleged extortion by threats?
A: What happened with Ran Fleisiger I have no idea, I wasn't, I say, what Ran did I
don't know if it is, but of course things like that I go upstairs and say, I didn't
check, I Shoshan didn't check.
Q: Are you saying that as far as you are concerned, you brought it up?
A: Absolutely. Anything that seems a bit to me is me bringing up.
Q: 100% lily, thank you very much.
A: Thank you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Thank you very much.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Thank you very much.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Attorney Sudry, please, sir.
A.T/1 Maj. Shoshan Binyamin, responds in cross-examination to attorney Kobi Sudari:

Attorney Sudri Well, I'm at the beginning of cross-examination of the witness,
because it's also relevant to him, I just want to make sure that your honor has
seen my objection on the matter.
Hon. S. Brody: We've seen, we've seen everything.
Attorney Soudry: 100%.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Sure, we saw, we saw.
ATTORNEY SODRY: So I'm just pointing out.
Hon. H.S. Brody: This refers only to the protocol of objection to the filing of
wiretaps.
Hon. Barak Nevo: On the subject of wiretapping.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: That's right.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And there are reasons there, we repeated it in the morning only in
the absence of the record, without at the moment.
ATTORNEY SODRY: Excellent. I will only point out that in fact this objection
extends not only to the exhibits that they wanted to submit through that witness,
Ms. Inbar Alon Levy, but also to any exhibit that they wanted to submit through any
other witness, including the witness here, who relies on the products of those
wiretaps, so therefore it is also relevant to the witness here.
Hon. H.S. Brody: We will decide that, of course, no.
ATTORNEY SODRY: No, no, I'm saying, it's for you to decide, of course.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It's listed. Not.
ATTORNEY SODRY: I'll just point out what my objection is.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Not now in place. No, okay.
ATTORNEY ROM: I just want to address a few things.
ATTORNEY SODRY: But wait a minute, let me, I'll finish the witness.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Let him say and keep him, I mean he keeps his claims. Now nothing
is being done about it.
Attorney Sudari: No, wait, I want to say, I don't have to guard my claims, I also
don't have to elaborate on the claims, the burden of proof.
Hon. H.S. Brody: You elaborated.
Attorney Sudari: The burden of proof is on the prosecution.
Hon. H.S. Brody: So I was surprised that you wrote, for example, I'm opening a
moment with issues, I was surprised in quotation marks.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: Yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: So let's say the matter of technical admissibility.
Hon. Barak Nevo: I don't hear you.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The terms of the technical story, it wasn't even necessary to
mention it in that context.
ATTORNEY SODRY: That's right, I did it more than necessary.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Because in fact there are also rulings and rules on this, I think
the prosecution is strong on it that it knows the rules of evidence, what they will
prove in the end will prove.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: That's right.
Hon. H.S. Brody: They know, after all.
ATTORNEY SODRY: True.
Hon. H.S. Brody: There will be, I suppose, witnesses as well.
ATTORNEY SODRY: True.
Hon. H.S. Brody: As long as the defense does not agree and we will see in the end,
maybe later we will hold discussions under sections 144 and reach understandings,
but at the moment the defense is opposed, among other things, on the grounds that
the first two components have not been proven, one of which is the expenditure and
the other is the matter of technical admissibility rules that have to be proven if
you object, but I think this is worth talking about because it may also be the kind
of thing that can be waived and it is not essential.
ATTORNEY ROM: So I'm just saying, first of all, with regard to the process of
issuing orders, I don't think I have a burden at all.
ATTORNEY ROM: Somehow, I don't have to prove any process of issuing warrants.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right, because the order was given.
Attorney Rom: There are orders and this is my proof that this is due process.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right, that's legal arguments, I'm talking about.
ATTORNEY ROM: All right, I say.
Hon. H.S. Brody: You saw that you didn't.
ATTORNEY ROM: I declare, I have no intention of proving now, to enter.
Hon. H.S. Brody: You saw I didn't get into it.
ATTORNEY ROM: For the story.
Hon. H.S. Brody: I didn't get into it, I asked about the technical terms of
conduct.
Attorney Rom: On the technical issue, then there is case law and also literature
that says that you don't have to prove technical admissibility by bringing in the
people who technically connected the devices, technical admissibility is a matter
that can also be proven circumstantially, the very conversations themselves, their
hearing, the fact.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But it doesn't belong perhaps.
Attorney Rom: They were approved, there's a lot more.
Hon. H.S. Brody: That's right.
Attorney Rom: Indications.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The question that is being asked here, I don't want to take away
the witness's time, but the question is whether it is at all proof by means of a
public servant certificate, a public servant certificate has it, I don't want to
provoke even things that did not provoke them, it is a pity for all of our time,
but on the theoretical legal level, a public servant certificate is related to some
particular niche of things that want to be brought only the document, which is
formal things that there are, I'm not here to introduce testimonies, it's on the
principle level, I say.
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But for the most part, we do reach agreements on what I just
mentioned, so why should we develop it right now?
ATTORNEY ROM: Good.
Hon. S. Brody: It is possible to talk, it is possible to discuss, it is possible to
consider things later. But let's ask the witness, please.
Attorney Sudari: From a review of the documents submitted through you, I get the
impression that you make sure to document in the registry every action in which you
are involved, is that correct?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I try very hard, yes.
Q: Okay. Among other things, I saw for example that you even document an action you
did as part of a drug chain, the one in T/641, you received some kind of exhibit.
Hon. H.S. Brody: As an example.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: It's part of the chain of exhibits that you write a report on,
right.
Q: Okay and it's true to say that every time you get an exhibit you write a report
about it?
A: I don't prescribe, I can't guarantee that I prescribe every time, I'm not
talking about drugs now, I'm excluding drugs.
Q: Exhibited, I said exhibited.
A: Me, so I answer, it's just important for me to emphasize this because drugs are
me yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: An exception to this rule?
Hon. H.S. Brody: What about drugs?
A: When I say that I do write down who I received from and where it went, it could
be that exhibits I only register them in the system as perceived, what exhibit I
caught, is at that moment.
ATTORNEY SODRY: But you're taking notes.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Maybe I'm writing from whom I got it, but it's not
always.
Q: But is there a situation where you will get an exhibit and not make any listing
on it?
A: I don't remember anything like that happening to me.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't know.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But you say, when you say 'there is a registry in the system,'
what do you mean?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: That is, when I receive an exhibit, I write it down in
the system what exhibit I received.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But not making a report but making an impression in the system?
A: I don't do a report that I received.
Hon. H.S. Brody: I mean, registration in the system for you sometimes replaces a
report, is that what you're saying?
A: I don't know if it replaces a report, I just don't.
Hon. H.S. Brody: I don't do a report.
A: I write the report, I write it in the system.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: But then what you're actually telling us is that you're doing
computerized registration and not paper registration, right?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: Mother of the exhibited? Yes.
Q: Great, I mean there's registration, forget the form of registration, but
registration do you do?
A: Things I got as such.
Q: Are you you?
A: Yes.
Q: Great. Now, since I haven't found any of the documents you submitted, so I want
to ask you specifically, do you remember that on November 19, 2019, you received
from Officer Ran Fleisiger a hard disk drive that came from Germany and marked it
with your name and date from that day?
A: I remember again I need to see it, but I am.
Q: What?
A: If I wrote something about it in the system or that, but I have something like.
Q: I am submitting to you the list of documents.
A: Because I remember something in my head.
Q: In the list of documents.
A: It won't help me.
Q: Submitted through you at trial there is no such record.
A: It won't help me, I won't.
Q: Okay.
A: Is that why I want to see if I got?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Perhaps Attorney Rom can enlighten us.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: If I accepted.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait a second, the witness started answering. What are you saying?
A: No, I said that if I got it in the system and it's registered in my name then I
registered, I don't deny it, I just don't remember.
Hon. Barak Nevo: No, he says he can't find a record.
Attorney Sudry: I couldn't find a record of you that you made.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: So why did I get it? So I don't know why I got it.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So he asks you, is it possible that you received and did not
register?
A: It's hard for me to believe.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: I'm asking this because.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: So I say again, it's hard for me to believe.
Q: Wait, wait, I'll explain it to you.
A: Please.
Q: I'm asking this because.
ATTORNEY ROM: There is on display.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: Don't know you filed that in the prosecution exhibits?
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes.
ATTORNEY SODRY: You presented that, didn't you?
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes, yes.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: Through him you submitted this? Did it get marked?
Adv. Haddad: T/463A.
ATTORNEY SODRY: It's that it's written.
ATTORNEY ROM: So investigate.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Maybe the importance of this has diminished a bit?
ATTORNEY SODRY: I don't know, no, the importance of this hasn't diminished, for
sure.
ATTORNEY ROM: Sorry, there's also a sticker.
ATTORNEY SODRY: There's just a sticker not either. Is this T/463A?
ATTORNEY HADAD: Yes.
Attorney Sudari: Great, I'm presenting you with T/463A.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Just what is the disc from Germany?
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes. No, but you'll see also.
ATTORNEY SODRY: I don't know what it is, what's inside, I don't know.
Attorney Rom: The CD that came in the copy.
Attorney Sudry: Do you recognize your registration name?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: This is a sketch of mine, Shoshan.
Q: Where? You're looking at what? On the sticker?
A: I look at the sticker, I look at the sticker, I don't.
Q: By the sticker do you recognize that this is your registration?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, we have here, it's wrapped in some white envelope.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And about her.
ATTORNEY ROM: It was in, I took it out.
Hon. H.S. Brody: And a sticker on it?
Hon. H.S. Tamir: A bag of crackles.
Hon. H.S. Brody: It was in nylon.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: The one on the sticker says.
Hon. H.S. Brody: The sticker on the nylon. Good.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: That I write down in the system is displayed, so I
write down who caught, the date and what is it? That's what it says here.
ATTORNEY SODRY: No, on the sticker.
Hon. Barak Nevo: How do you know it's you but?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: No, I say only according to the writing style, how do I
know that I am the one?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Yes, that's what he asked.
A: Because it says my name.
Hon. Barak Nevo: How do you identify?
A: Because it says my name.
ATTORNEY SUDRY: Now, because it says.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: It says Shoshan Binyamin 1, the date.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Well, all right, okay. Yes please.
A: Because we, at least I write so I write who caught, as if the first one caught.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Well, thank you, yes, we can go on.
A: Who writes it down like.
Attorney Sudry: You look at the sticker, the sticker does have your name on it, do
you remember that you wrote the name on it?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: In the system it is written documenting who wrote it, I
don't really remember it many years back, if it is written that I wrote then I
wrote, I do not deny it.
Q: So it doesn't say that you wrote, so my question is very, very simple, the fact
that on the exhibit there is a sticker with your name printed on it, does that mean
that the person who printed it is necessarily you? There is no argument that they
are your registered there, but does that mean you made the registration?
A: It means my name, I have to make it clear again, if I did the registration in
the system, a second before you, it's listed my name, it's in the second it's
checked, if not I did it someone else, this sticker says I caught, if I registered.
Q: No, this sticker says your name is listed so I'll explain it to you again so
we'll be clear.
A: I explain to you what the sticker says.
Q: I'll explain to you again why, what my question is aimed at. Ok? I don't have
anything in my bag at all.
A: Yes.
Q: No document that says you made the marking, there is no document that says you
received this exhibit, the only thing there is that on the disc there is your name
Shoshan Binyamin and the date 19.11.19 and therefore the questions.
Hon. Barak Nevo: 19 Not 9?
Attorney Soudry: 19.
Hon. Barak Nevo: 19.11.19?
Attorney Sudari: 19 November 2019 So my question is, did you make this registration
or if you don't remember or don't know, could someone else have done it on your
behalf? For this I try to find out through you if you remember it or not?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I don't give, I don't give and I do it and I commit to
it, no one writes things down in my name and I don't sign for anyone, I'm a lily,
there's no way according to the sticker does that mean I probably caught it at some
point, to tell you if I did the registration? Check it in a minute and a half in
the system, don't remember now.
Q: But you don't remember to say?
A: No.
Q: Great.
A: It's that it went through for me.
Hon. Barak Nevo: He says, 'I don't let them register in my name and I don't
register.'
ATTORNEY SUDRY: I'm also not saying you give, but it could still be.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: I point that out.
Q. Could it still be by the fact that someone did it without you giving?
A: What is a market? What is this?
Q: I don't know.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait, second, second, wait, come, a technological or technical
question or I don't know what to call it.
THE WITNESS, SERGEANT MAJOR. Benjamin: Please.
Hon. Barak Nevo: How does it come out that your name becomes on the sticker?
A: We write down an exhibit, we write down the exhibit, we write down who caught.
Hon. Barak Nevo: I understood that, but how does it translate?
A: So because of that.
Hon. Barak Nevo: How come? Is it automatic?
A: They write my name here, I can write whose name, yes, the sticker comes out of
the system, as if as a result of what is written in the system, write who caught it
and what is displayed, in the system it says who wrote it.
A: The sticker doesn't say who wrote it.
ATTORNEY SODRY: Now another question.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, just a second.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I do remember working with it from Germany, but I don't
remember what.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Okay, please.
Attorney Sudari: If you are the one who received the exhibit and marked it.
Q. What did you do with him?
A: If it's investigative information it's in the file and if it's presented as this
exhibit, I don't know if I wrote it in the report but I'm forwarding it to the
registrar.
Hon. Barak Nevo: What do you convey?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: To the registrar, the person responsible for the
exhibits.
Attorney Sudari: What is currently on display is before your eyes.
A: Yes.
Q: So this exhibit, if indeed you are the one who marked it as Shoshan Binyamin
19.11.19.
A: Yes.
Q. After you received it, what did you do with it?
A: I returned it either to Ran or gave it to an unequivocal exhibit listing.
Q: Okay. Do you recall that you did anything else in this exhibit at any point?
A: I don't remember, if I did any action on the exhibit, a copy of the exhibit
everything, there is a report for this thing.
Q: Okay. Now, you said earlier that you remember having something to do with the
material that came from Germany.
A: I dealt with something because I had also been presented with reports of
something from a company from Germany the previous times, so it did come up.
Q: So just explain to me, please or elaborate on what 'messed up' means? How did
you deal with this material?
A: I remember the IP addresses and issuing warrants and they talked about it last
time.
Q: Did you issue an order?
A: IP addresses from one of the groups and I issued warrants to a company in
Germany.
Q: Okay. But beyond that do you remember that you did actions on the disk itself
that came from Germany?
A: I don't remember, every action I took if I did anything, even just opening it
shows up in action reports.
Q: And certainly if you did penetrate the drive?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, appears in?
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: In my action reports.
ATTORNEY SODRY: And certainly if you did penetrate the drive.
Q: So as well.
A: That's right.
Q: There was supposed to be a report on this. Thank you, I have no further
questions forever.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait. Yes please. Adv. Rosenberg.
Attorney Rosenberg Again, I asked, because the witness is already coming on

Wednesday.
Hon. H.S. Brody: How much interrogation time do you have?
Attorney Rosenberg: Literally between 5, 10 minutes, a short interrogation, it's
just that the defendant Ashkenazi comes to all the hearings and it's important for
him to be at every hearing related to him.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right. Accepted?
Hon. Barak Nevo: Wait a minute, and are you sure Ashkenazi will be able to come on
Wednesday?
ATTORNEY RONZENBERG: I'm not sure, but.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Not because Ashkenazi has a pain in his head and that.
Hon. H.S. Brody: He will come.
ATTORNEY RONZENBERG: Either way, it's a really short interrogation.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Anyway he comes.
ATTORNEY RONZENBERG: I will investigate before Rozin.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Okay, but if he doesn't come on Wednesday, you're done with the
witness anyway.
ATTORNEY RONZENBERG: Obviously, of course, of course, we won't bring it
specifically.
Hon. H.S. Brody: All right? Ok. So a typist I haven't booked yet.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Who to call?
Hon. Hashem Tamir: She's already done it, you can just take it out and that's it.
ATTORNEY ROM: I just want to say something for the record.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, we did not close.
Hon. Barak Nevo: So Mike, are you getting into it?
Hon. H.S. Tamir: Yes.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, but it's recorded because I don't have typing.
Recorder: Open at the moment.
ATTORNEY ROM: Regarding the witnesses, what I wanted to say earlier.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Yes, all right. Attorney Rom wanted something to say about the
order in which witnesses were heard.
ATTORNEY ROM: Yes. Whereas, the witness is expected to conclude his testimony at
the next date.
Attorney Rom: We will advance Dvir Eliav to May 8 and try to transfer his materials
tomorrow, but if there is a refresher memorandum then it probably won't arrive
before the day before.
Hon. H.S. Brody: But try.
Attorney Rom: I'm already telling you that in light of the constraints, we can't do
that.
ATTORNEY SODRY: What? What? When will the refresh memo arrive?
ATTORNEY ROM: I don't know if there will be a refresher memorandum, I say, we're
meeting with him the day before.
ATTORNEY SODRY: Why?
Attorney Rom: Because there is no other option, it was not expected, it was not
planned, we are not, we are sometimes required to bring witnesses in a time close
to the date itself, even if a hearing was suddenly scheduled that was not fixed or
in Shoshan's case, we thought he would testify on 4 more dates You said at the
beginning, so we plan, we can't, we plan according to.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Does anyone know how much time Rosin has with him next week?
Attorney Rom: 3 hours, he told me 3 hours.
Hon. Barak Nevo: On Wednesday.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, we need to bring more.
The witness, Maj. Benjamin: I can also next week.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wednesday from 3 hours.
ATTORNEY ROM: On Wednesday?
Hon. H.S. Brody: Sure.
Attorney Rom: On Wednesday I can't bring any more witnesses with such a warning, I
can't, Rozin is interrogating him and someone else.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Listen, it's not enough for a day of discussions.
ATTORNEY RONZENBERG: I am, but very briefly.
ATTORNEY ROM: Only you?
ATTORNEY RONZENBERG: Very briefly.
Hon. H.S. Brody: Wait, I stop a minute. Stop recording for a moment.
<#6#>
Decision
The discussion of the recording is over. The next evidentiary hearing will be held
on May 3, 2023 at 8:45 a.m. Recording services will be invited. It was explained to
the defendants present in the courtroom that they were required to appear.

Hon. H.S. Brody: We are closing the meeting, thank you very much.
Hon. Barak Nevo: Thank you very much.
-Recording ended-
Recorded by Rebecca Binyamin
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Center-Lod District Court

Given and announced today 01/05/2023 in the presence of those present.

Leora Brody, Judge, Vice President – ABD

Given and announced today 01/05/2023 in the presence of those present.

Leora Brody, Judge, Vice President – ABD

Hon. H.S. Brody: Do you spring?

Given and announced today 01/05/2023 in the presence of those present.

Leora Brody, Judge, Vice President – ABD

(Speaking in the background).

A.T/1 Maj. Shoshan Binyamin, responds in cross-examination to attorney Kobi Sudari:

Attorney Rosenberg Again, I asked, because the witness is already coming on

Given and announced today 01/05/2023 in the presence of those present.

Leora Brody, Judge, Vice President – ABD

Recorded by Rebecca Binyamin

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