5/23/23, 9:05 PM soft question - Why doesn't this work? -- The V.I.

he V.I. Arnold Primary School Problem (Two women started at sunrise...) - Mathem…

Why doesn't this work? -- The V.I. Arnold Primary School Problem
(Two women started at sunrise...)
Asked 9 years, 3 months ago Modified 9 years, 3 months ago Viewed 458 times

I've got a, perhaps silly, question. I understand the various solutions to this problem:

2 Two women started at sunrise and each walked at a constant velocity. One went from
A to B and the other from B to A. They met at noon and, continuing with no stop,
arrived respectively at B at 4 p.m. and at A at 9 p.m. At what time was the sunrise that
day?

I'm not in need of a solution. I'd like to know why my way of thinking of it doesn't work,
though. (For some reason, it is often in mathematics that, what ends up confusing me isn't
how to do the problem—but how not to do it.)

Here's my idea:

We know that if the women were both going the same speed—the average speed between
them, at 12:00, they would meet up in the middle, right in between A and B. To find the
average speed, we consider the situation from the point at which they originally met: It took
the first woman 9 hours to finish her trip and the second woman 4 hours. We increment the
time it takes them (synonymous with incrementing their velocities) in 30-min. intervals until
it takes them the same amount of time. That is:

The first woman takes 9 hours while the second takes 4.

The first woman takes 8.5 hours while the second takes 4.5. (This corresponds to
speeding up the first woman a little bit, and slowing down the second the same amount,
so that their 12:00 meeting point shifts a bit towards the center).

The first woman takes 8.0 hours while the second takes 5.

The first woman takes 7.5 hours while the second takes 5.5.

The first woman takes 7 hours while the second takes 6.

Both women take 6.5 hours.

So, to get to the center of the path at 12:00 going the average speed between the two would
take 6.5 hours. The sunset would have began, then, at 12 − 6.5 = 5.5 = 5 : 30 . The answer is
obviously not 5:30.

Where does this method of thinking go wrong?

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5/23/23, 9:05 PM soft question - Why doesn't this work? -- The V.I. Arnold Primary School Problem (Two women started at sunrise...) - Mathem…

Edit: This "solution" doesn't assume that they meet in the middle. It only assumes they meet
in the middle if they were both going the average speed between them. Incrementing the time
equally (and thus their velocities equally) is supposed to ensure that their meeting time is still
12:00.

soft-question education solution-verification

Share Cite Follow edited Feb 23, 2014 at 22:26 asked Feb 23, 2014 at 22:12
AmagicalFishy
1,930 1 17 33

1 Why should you assume that they walk at the same speed until noon? They are not at the middle
between B and A when they meet – Jimmy R. Feb 23, 2014 at 22:18

They're only walking at the same speed if they're both going the average between their original speeds.
The method is supposed to extrapolate the average, and then use that average speed to determine when
the sun rose, but I'm not sure why I get the wrong answer. – AmagicalFishy Feb 23, 2014 at 22:20

You might need to consider geometric average rather than the arithmetic one here. That's what the
speeds do when being averaged. While distances are the same, you have either time = distance / speed,
so the speed goes to the denominator; or speed = distance / time, so the time goes to the denominator.
By Jensen's inequality, you will be off with your arithmetic mean. – StasK Apr 22, 2014 at 19:05

Sorted by:
2 Answers
Highest score (default)

They don't meet in the middle, but further away from the starting point of the faster one. And
one thing that is often the cause of erorr in such problems is to take the wrong kind of average
1 of velocities: Sometimes arithmetic mean is correct, sometimes harmonic mean, sometimes
we better make a sketch. In fact, a sketch (location-time-diagram) is the best starting point for
such problems.

Btw. the problem statment is problematic in itself: Since the women start at different locatons,
they very likely have different times of sunride (and might be in different time zones, but that
would really be nitpicking)

Share Cite Follow answered Feb 23, 2014 at 22:21

Hagen von Eitzen
1

I know that, given their original speeds, they don't meet at the middle. But if they were both going their
average speed—they would meet in the middle. Incrementing their times (and thus their velocities)
equally [I think] ensures that their meeting time is still 12:00. – AmagicalFishy Feb 23, 2014 at 22:23

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5/23/23, 9:05 PM soft question - Why doesn't this work? -- The V.I. Arnold Primary School Problem (Two women started at sunrise...) - Mathem…

Your claim is that for any (reasonable) difference between t and t , we have that 1 2
1

2
(r 1 + r 2 )

is a constant. I argue that the claim you're making is quite strong. Even if it were true [and it
0 turns out it isn't], most of the solution would probably be wrapped up in it.

For example, the claim is not true for a fixed distance: from d = rt we have that for any
α > 0 :

1 1 d d
(r 1 + r 2 ) = ( + )
2 2 t1 t2

1 d d
≠ ( + ).
2 (t1 + α) (t2 − α)

However, that fails to solve the problem posed, because, as you note, we do not assume that
for all α, the two women meet in the middle. Therefore to plug in t = t = 6.5 and α = 2.5, 1 2

we must assume that d refers to the distance between where they meet and their final
destinations, but that is not the same for both women.

Therefore, let d be the distance from A to B and suppose they meet at a proportion β of the
way along the path. Then we are trying to compare

1 d d 1 βd (1 − β)d
( + ) and ( + ).
2 t t 2 (t + α) (t − α)

Now, it's not clear that β as a function of α won't magically work to cancel things out, but it
turns out that it doesn't. There is probably some good reason for this but I can't figure it out.

Share Cite Follow answered Feb 23, 2014 at 22:56

Eric Stucky
12.6k 3 35 67

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring out what your variables are so that they are dimensionally
consistent, but I think your expression of the idea is a bit off. Let L be the distance between A and B.
Let v , v be the velocities of the first (slower) woman and the second (faster) woman respectively. Let
1 2

t
m be the time at which they meet (one can also consider it the time it takes for them to meet); note that
t
m
is the value we wish to keep constant. – AmagicalFishy Feb 24, 2014 at 1:42

We know that v (t + 9) = L for the first woman and v (t + 4) = L for the second woman. (That
1 m 2 m

is, the first woman's velocity multiplied by the amount of time it takes them to meet, plus the 9 hours
after they meet, is the whole distance between A and B). If, in both equations, we solve for t , we have: m

and t . Surely, t ) because this is just . My claim is

L−9v1 L−4v2 1 L−9v1 L−4v2 1
tm = m = m = ( + 2tm
v1 v2 2 v1 v2 2

that, if you add α ∈ R to 9 and subtract α from both equations... – AmagicalFishy Feb 24, 2014 at 1:47

... the average between the two t m equations will give you the original t m equation. We know:
L−9v1 L−4v2 L−(9+α)v1 L−(4−α)v2
tm =
1

2
(
v1
+
v2
) from above. Consider 1

2
(
v1
+
v2
). When you do out the
algebra, you get a −v v α term and a +v v α term that cancel one another out, giving you the original
1 2 1 2

equation for t (meaning that the meeting time is constant when you add a number to one time and
m

subtract it from the other). – AmagicalFishy Feb 24, 2014 at 1:49

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