i am pastor stephen tucker and i'm sitting with father vincent lambert and you have

a very interesting and unique job in the body of christ in addition to pastoring
two churches here in brookville indiana i'm also the exorcist for the archdiocese
of indianapolis so i investigate all cases of alleged demonic activity in this part
of indiana and then make

The determination that the church will act and perform an exorcism what's it like
what's like your daily routine what's an exorcist's daily routine or is there one
there is not one okay not all exorcists are publicly known those of us who are
publicly known get a high volume of callers prior to covet i was getting about 2
000 calls a year

In emails from people united states even other parts of the world now i'm getting
eight to ten calls a day wow how do you keep up with that honey i uh balance it all
you know i try to respond i have some people that work with me and responding to
people i network with other exorcists throughout the world i belong to an
international group of exorcists so we're able to get

Together every other year for ongoing training and formation and by knowing these
other priests and if somebody reaches out to me from a different part of the
country of the world at least i can put them in contact with somebody in their area
who might be able to help them with what they're dealing with do all catholic
churches um or parishes do they all have um you know a priest ordained for that i

Mean ready to perform exorcist if needed no the technically it from a catholic

perspective the exorcist would be the local bishop okay and then he could delegate
one or more of his priests to do that ministry on his behalf okay so i've been
delegated by the bishop in the archdiocese of indianapolis archdiocese just means
it's a territory so 39 counties in central and southern

Indiana make up the church of indianapolis okay one thing that i was probably asked
more than anything to come up here what what's your view on is that why is this
like predominantly a catholic thing you know because i'm a non-denominational
pastor i've never had anybody come to me like you know hey do you perform an
exorcist or anything and if they did i'd probably have that same response you
better call a priest it's like it's like

Y'all's thing you know what what is your view on that why is that like just always
a catholic thing in the movies it's always depicted get the local priest i think
it's because the church takes the topic of the devil and the reality of evil very
seriously because even within christian circles you'll discover that not everyone
actually believes in the devil true and so because of that i think people

Will perceive that the catholic church knows how to address the issue you know the
people that contact me half of them are not catholic they come from other christian
faith traditions some are coming from other world religions or no faith background
whatsoever but the catholic church does view this as a ministry of charity and
compassion so the church would always want to

Help those who are reaching out to her now what i like to do especially if somebody
is reaching out to me is to know whether or not they've talked to their local
pastor okay because if people are dealing with the demonic they're going to need
ongoing pastoral care and the best way they're going to get that is from their home
church so they need to make sure that their pastor is involved from the very

Beginning that their pastor isn't aware of how to address the situation then i can
kind of weigh in on that yeah i feel you guys have the more systematic way to do it
you know more and of course more educated in it i mean how many have you been a
part of i know you said was 40 in rome alone was it i trained in rome in 2006 so
after i was appointed back in 2005 the catholic church says the best way to

Learn how to do exorcisms is by being a prince so there was really only about less
than 10 exorcists in the united states who were catholic so i was trained in rome
by a franciscan priest i participated in 40 exorcisms that he performed in the
three months that i was there and then so i learned firsthand because it's easy you
know you can all pick up the manuals and read the books read the

Bible about the reality of evil and reality of the devil but one really needs to
know how to go about that combat right so by working with this priest in rome i was
able to learn how it is done you know i would point out that the catholic church
doesn't have a monopoly on the practice of exorcism because ultimately the true
exorcist is jesus himself

You know i like to say that jesus is not a bystander in an exorcism he's the main
actor he is the main one he is the one performing the exorcism because i say if
people are relying on me i don't have any special powers or abilities right it's
the power and the authority of jesus christ and his name that will always cast out
evil spirits amen yeah that's a beautiful way to put it so he's always the center
of these i mean

Of course in faith he is anyway but as you're performing the exorcism i mean that's
your focus that's what you're just focused on just the prayers of the church and
jesus to cast out these demons and his authority because you know for catholics we
have a right of exorcism so it's there is a prescribed way to do right right but
ultimately at its very core

Christ is the one you know it's like in the name of jesus christ by his power and
the authority of his name i command you to leave we know some of the disciples
before in the scriptures and i can't think of exactly which book it's in now you
know jesus told him this only comes out through prayer and fasting is that
something that you've

Experienced that you've maybe a very strong demon or a set of demons whatever that
you would have to go through those measures to you know and i would say the key
ingredient there is uh obedience you know it's when we pray when we fast we're
being obedient to god and obedience is what the devil hates

Sure because he got adam and eve in the garden to be disobedient to god you know
did god really tell you not to eat you know the fruit you know the knowledge of
good and evil right and so he kind of there is the temptation that he got them to
be disobedient to god so the devil hates obedience to god so when you look at the
disciplines of prayer and fasting one is showing their fidelity to god in

Obedience to him you know i always think of uh many people may have seen pictures
of saints there's always a halo around right right well the halo really represents
the glory of god it's not their glory they're radiating it's that the person really
committed their life to christ so much that they begin to radiate the glory of god
you know i have six brothers and two

Sisters and my brothers and i when we were younger we used to like to get these
rubber balls that glow in the dark right and you put them up against the light bulb
then you turn off the light and it would glow but eventually what would happen to
the ball if it wasn't constantly fed by the light right it would go out so the
saints constantly fed themselves by the glory of god and so they radiate his glory
you think of the devil and his

Demons we always think of darkness because you know the devil and his demons fallen
angels are no longer nourished by the glory of god so they are in total darkness
how was it like when the first one you've seen you know was that was that fear or i
mean i don't if i walk in this room right now you're performing an exercise i'd
probably be afraid i'd be like okay

Jesus is the power but i'm going outside here and i'll pray out here i don't think
i want to be in that same room you know but that's what the demon wants correct i
mean just to distract you get your intention of what you're asking because
scripture tells us that perfect faith cast out fear but the devil would want to
cast in fear because he believes that through fear he will cast out faith ah okay
and so i would say that

It's not fear but you know a natural human reaction would be you know your
adrenaline would be rushing right you kind of feel like you're being threatened but
i wouldn't call it fear okay it's the first time i worked with somebody and just
kind of talking with this lady and her husband and is trying to assess what was
really going on we talked for probably about an hour and

A half and then afterwards i said let me think about the best way to move forward
i'm going to pray about it and then you know i'll be back in touch and the husband
said well can you pray for my wife before you leave and as soon as i started to
pray the demon manifested and the person the demon then now manifesting through
this woman's body lunges at me i think i jump back five feet but that's the kind of
the human reaction

You know hearts racing a mile and then you know your palms are sweaty yeah but then
i just immediately kept praying and i just moved right back in and laid my hand on
top of the person with the demon manifesting and the demon is glaring back at me
and throwing obscenities and whatnot that is amazing yeah i've never witnessed
anything like that yeah i don't know how to handle that i

Mean i like to think my faith is very strong but the manifestations are really
meant to instill fear right because the demon wants to say don't focus on the power
of god and his word and prayer but look what i can do because that's you know
manifestations can be in many different forms you know demons always act
animalistic in nature you know there's that deep authoritative

Voice it's kind of like to instill fear like if you're walking down an alley and
all of a sudden a dog comes up and starts barking you know your defenses are going
to come on but the demon wants to give in to get the person to give in to fear so
that it can stay connected to this person so again there can be eyes rolled in the
back of the head foaming at the mouth

Growling snarling you know i've seen people levitate when the demons manifest
seeing people drop to the ground and start slithering like a snake across the floor
the temperature the rhythm drops it becomes much colder so all of these things if
the demon is basically saying look at what i can do but the demon itself cannot
hurt the same correct and there's no fear like physical harm

To you through this demon am i right on that or not well at least from a catholic
perspective when the rite of exorcism begins there's a prayer at the very beginning
asking god to protect and safeguard all those involved okay so as long as we're
relying on the power and the authority of god there really is nothing to fear
gotcha because sometimes people will say well you know do you restrain people or
tie them down

The answer would be what point is that because you know one of the signs of demonic
possession would be superhuman strength right you know even in in mark's gospel in
chapter five the garrison demoniac i think we might touch on that but it says that
shackles wouldn't even hold this man right so i'm not gonna rely on shackles or
restraining people i'm going to rely on the power of the word of god amen

To refrain and restrain the devil so that's something movies definitely get wrong
then this well movies i think they're always more focused on what the devil is
doing but ultimately in an exorcism the goal is to focus on what god is doing yeah
i heard you say in another interview and i think that's amazing yeah it's not the
uh probably more people are interested in

What the demon is doing or the dark side to all of this but your whole ministry is
not hey don't look at that look away look how big god is satan always presents
himself as much bigger than what he really is i mean to everybody to anybody those
addictions i can't get over that's too big drinking i can't i can't stop that
because that's too big but look how big god is you know i like that and i think a
lot of people get that wrong especially this time of

Year you know i've seen a lot of my comments on the videos and the different things
you've said and there are some people that clearly are genuine christians speaking
on there but you see a lot more people that are outside of that realm and seem to
have a lot more interest in that but your ministry is just don't look at the devil
look at god yeah i

Would say that you know my goal is to help people shift their focus from the devil
onto god because even over the years of doing exorcisms i don't really focus on the
manifestations anymore i don't really care what the devil is doing i can care less
that's great yeah i i it would probably take me some years maybe get used to that

And i gotta ask you this if you don't care to elaborate was it your first one uh
how did you celebrate oh that's the one because i worked for that person for over a
year and then somebody said well you know as a priest what'd you do afterwards did
you celebrate mass right did you pray what did you do and i went to dairy queen and
had a chocolate shake i was two hours away from home it was a

Hot day and that's amazing i walked in the dairy queen and the place was jam-packed
and i thought if these people knew where i just came from i would be like moses
parting the red sea they would get away from me as quick as they could yeah that is
good but that's the thing is you know there there's an old song from the 1960s i
think by a group called blood sweat and tears it says i know there ain't no

Heaven but i pray there ain't no hell right where people reject god and they think
there's no consequences in that the people need to realize that the devil is a
reality and god is the one who protects and safeguards us and ultimately if we have
a relationship with god and we're living out that relationship the devil is

Nothing to fear because we don't have to do anything extraordinary it's the

ordinary aspects of our christian faith that keeps the the devil at bay yeah we've
seen that in another sermon or a lecturer he was saying that you gave the uh the
story about a cat i told some priest friends of mine if somebody comes to me and
says you know i'm dealing with the demonic i'm like great go to church and pray i'm
like no

What do you really want me to do yeah i jokingly said if i had told him to go out
the next night of a full moon at midnight and howl at the moment and hop on one leg
and swing a cat dead cat around her head they would look at me and go where do i
get the cat where do i get the cat so people are always willing to do the
extraordinary but i can't emphasize enough that it's really the ordinary aspects of
our faith that

Protect us amen i thought the radius like he was talking about mark 5 and a couple
questions that come out of it i was interested in uh of course the man that was
possessed that uh they got arenans um and probably demons don't act any different
than what they do now am i right i mean as far as their actions they they

Haven't changed their plan i mean they're still doing the same thing back here
that's what they're given today correct okay um says that they came over into the
other side of the sea into the country at the gatorade and when he was come out of
the ship immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit so
you were

Talking we don't get any backstory of him at all in what what caused this uh you
know being um uh invested with these spirits but you say that there's entry points
corrected to people's lives and there's that you can always trace that back to
something that somebody did correct okay um in that so the saved cannot be
possessed correct

Well the question would be does one backslide on their faith do they apostasize
meaning did they know the truth of jesus christ and then walk away because my
experience that there is a big difference between exorcisms performed in the
apostate world where people were saved and then

Abandoned the relationship with christ and then in parts of the world where people
have never heard the good news or non-christians in those cases because sometimes
people ask me well why do exorcisms have to be performed more than once on the same
person jesus jesus did it was one and done and my experience is in non-christian

World and people that are possessed it is one and done but in the apostate world
where somebody accepted christ and then walked away demons seemed to have a greater
claim on them because they knew the truth and then walked away right so when
someone says you know ultimately if you're really saved and living out your faith
then you cannot be possessed

But if you're waffling in your faith if you're backsliding you could be creating an
entry point for the demonic into your life as he affords us the ability to ask him
for forgiveness he didn't necessarily do that to satan but another thing to look at
is satan was there he's seen it he knew the glory of god and he still turned his
back on it and maybe in a very small scale anyway i

Feel that way about that the people that has fallen away or transgressed or went
back um so if you see the human person we can grow in holiness and virtue right we
can understand the error of our ways we can either commit our life to christ the
first time or we can recommit but the nature of an angelic creature it wouldn't
even occur to the devil to ask for forgiveness you know it's not that god wouldn't
extend forgiveness to

Any of his creatures but we would have to want it right and the nature of an
angelic creature whether good or fallen you know we would say that their their
decision and choice is once and for all because angels can't aren't constantly
learning and growing like we are they are what they are they are what they are it's
like a good analogy i saw one time

You know if you're heating some a metal up like forging something you heat it up
and you're molding and shaping it but once you cool it down it is what it is and at
least for the angels they are what they are right so from a catholic perspective
satan and his demons can no longer repent right their time has come and gone and
the good angels they cannot fall they are what they are they make but the

Human person by virtue of our nature we can grow we can come to understand the
error of our ways that's why somebody possess could ask for help but when i work
with people knowing the entry point just helps me to know what doorway needs to be
closed in this person's life because it's not just about casting the demon out it's
about inviting god in yeah you know there's a

Passage in scripture too that you know luke's gospel in chapter 11 where it talks
about once the demon has been cast out and goes and wanders through the arid
wasteland and coming back and finding the house swept clean meaning it's gone but
god hasn't been invited in then it goes and finds seven other demons worse than
itself and they come and take up residence in the person and so the person's
situation is worse than it was before because he was never

Filled with god exactly and what's interesting is that there's a lot of people
today who contact me that are now viewing the exorcist as a magician people think
that i have special powers or abilities they want nothing to do with god but
somehow they think i can make the devil go away in their life and they can go on
their merry way

But again it's not just casting the demon out i also want to help somebody grow in
their relationship with christ either to recommit themselves to that relationship
or to discover christ for the first time we have the same law in our churches as
well they want they want to come to christ but it's only to get rid of the problem
in their life then after that they're

Fine they don't have any more interest in it until the next problem comes along
maybe not in the demonic sense but finances or anything that's going on whatever it
is yeah but the true actual relationship of jesus christ is often not there i mean
they don't really want that they don't want to change they don't want anything
what's another thing i always tell people that it is god that changes your heart

I'm not the man that i am now the day i got saved actually probably a lot of people
look at me back then and say well he ain't safe but no i really love god and i was
really learning and i was growing like he was talking about the angelic beings um
you know it is a growing thing it's definitely you know and uh hopefully in 10
years you know i'll be much more spiritually strong than what i have you know

I would say that conversion is an ongoing process you know when one commits them
like their life to christ that doesn't mark an end that really marks the beginning
of the journey amen right because each and every day we can be pulled in so many
directions i think of job in the old testament when god permitted satan to afflict
him you know and joe's wife says to him

Curse god and die he beats his breast and he says the lord giveth the lord taketh
away blessed be the name of the lord meaning that things be good i glorify god if
things be bad i glorify god my personal circumstances mean nothing when it comes to
god's rightful place in my life amen and we was talking before all of this he was
talking about mary in that same aspect she didn't understand the plan

For god but she said she accepted his plan anyway that's right right and that's
ultimately what all of us should say we should all say yes to god you know
sometimes people are afraid of committing their life to christ because they think
they're going to lose something of themselves but we don't lose ourselves we
finally discover who we truly are amen exactly and you know freedom in the

True sense of the word doesn't mean to do whatever we want freedom i believe means
to live in a manner that god created us to live because when we're true to god then
we discover freedom in the true sense of the word if we believe that freedom means
we can do whatever we want then ultimately we just become slaves to our own
passions and desires true yeah i think a lot of people look at that say hi

I got to be that guy you know you know i'm like just let go change your heart
because he won't do it he's very real i don't think people give him enough credit
in her day-to-day life and everything that what he will do whenever the person is
honest and just asks him you know i ask him all the time lord let me grow closer to
god let me let me let me grow closer to you in whatever way you want and again it's
like people

Have mentioned that about addictions they say well you know how how can i get rid
of this well there's no magic verse in there you know read luke 14 5 times and then
you won't be addicted to drugs it doesn't work that way but through a real
relationship i don't know how god does it it's amazing but slowly he draws those
problems out of people you know through struggles and failures and you know a real
relationship with god will move

People forward in that i'm a firm believer in that and it's not a it's not a magic
book it's a there's no you know recite this incantation a couple times and you'll
be good it's uh it's it's it's through a real relationship so you think even in
that somebody that is lost never knew god never knew jesus they

They have a demon in them and now can they can they come to that realization and
they give their heart to jesus christ in that moment will the demon automatically
leave or would this be something that they have to grow in faith and kind of push
the demon out in it could because i think demons can be cast out in multiple ways
okay even though there's a prescribed ritual in the catholic church i think there
are different ways that

That can be cast out as somebody certainly you know commits their life to christ
that's enough because the demons don't want to be in the presence of the glory of
god right and so they'll try to turn out the light of christ that maybe that spark
is now taking place in us but as long as we constantly you know feed that light

Then the demons eventually will flee you know if you think of a house that's
infested by bugs when you walk in internal light on what is above this scattered
they scatter for every cracking crevice they want to be in the darkness and so
anytime we throw the light of christ on our lives you know i say an exorcism really
is throwing the light of christ on these demons they're going to flee

And uh verse three here chapter five verse three he says who had his dwelling among
the tombs and no man can find him known all the chains and you said that was one of
the four points right that you look for for actual demonic possession superhuman
strength the ability to speak and understand languages otherwise unknown to the
individual having elevated perception so knowing things that a person

That the person as an individual would otherwise not know and then to have a strong
negative reaction to anything with sacred nature such as being you know having the
word of god read in front of you being shown a cross you know crucifix being
blessed with holy water really anything that's considered to be sacred and holy

So the other language is is that some you speak latin correct i know some latin
yeah okay so have you experienced that could you understand what the demon was
trying to say in either greek or latin whatever it was speaking somewhat but again
our you know one of the things that exorcists are trained to do is not really to
focus on what the demons are

Saying because we know that the development yeah would be something good right and
that the devil is the father of all lies the scripture tells us so it's really not
worthwhile focusing right because the devil would want to throw out half truths and
whatnot again he did that with adam and eve in the garden he's trying to get us off
track so i've really learned not to pay any attention i learned this right on
When i was in rome and i don't know if you saw this in some of the other interviews
and things i've done but one of the people that was being exercised the demons
started to levitate and was rising up out of the chair and i'm looking at this kind
of disbelief and the priest that's doing it who's training me he's praying he has
his prayer book that he's reading

Out of and he looks over and sees the person levitating he looks back at the book
he looks over again he continues to pray he never stops he just takes his hand puts
it on top of the head of the person and pushes him back down in the chair and never
paused a moment in praying did you ever hear his testimony of when he started
because it seems like

Somebody's very experienced in that to be able to he had been doing exorcisms for
25 years at the time he trained me he started in the late 1970s so you know there's
all the tricks that hold it the other thing because even in one of the other
exorcisms the uh it sounded like the the person speaking and not the demon and the
the voice said you know thank you for praying with me today you know

The demon is gone thank you for praying you don't need to pray anymore and uh i
think the priest training me knew that the demon was trying to give the illusion
that that he had been cast out when it hadn't and then uh he blessed the person
again and then the demon shouted out i told you you could stop praying i would run
out the room

You know if you're doing exorcisms for the first time and you know that and the
demon gives the illusion has been cast out you can think i'm glad that's over but
then again you don't finish it right and you ultimately didn't yeah could make that
person's situation even worse than it was before so is there anything new you've
seen i mean is it like you know

Here's our list of what we know to look for everything we know what demons do and
there's no nothing new not presented anything new oh it's a world of lies and
deception so it can come in many very forms okay that's why i learned just not to
focus once i make the uh the decision that the person in front of me truly needs an
exorcism then i will no longer focus on the

Theatrics of the devil so in reality it's just just christ there's nothing else
there's no yeah no other attention no nothing it's just jesus christ in that which
i think is actually in the next verse here too he says in verse four uh because he
had been often bound with fetters and chains and the chains had been plucked
asunder by him and the fetters broken pieces neither could any man tame him you
know the only help of

This man was through jesus christ nobody else could do it uh in verse five he says
that always night and day he was in the mountains and in the tombs crying and
cutting himself with spares this this is what came to mind as i read this last
night uh going over is what what exactly is the demon's intention i mean is it to
kill the host or just cause terror around it and for the host whoever it's in i
mean is that it or is it trying to

Actually kill the person that i think it's a combination of both inflicting pain
and misery you know the question would be why would a demon want to possess a human
person right and actually the answer is at the very core of christianity and what's
the greatest thing that god did for us the incarnation god took on human form and
so the devil in his own twisted sense believes that he takes on human

Form by possessing a human person but you take that even a step further is that the
human person is god's greatest creation because the human person has been created
in the image and likeness of god so the devil in his own twisted sense believes
that he's actually distorting and disfiguring god himself by afflicting humans
god's greatest

Creation okay so that would be
rebellious nature so much yeah
familiar with it i've heard um
they're trying to like release
them and the notion
the ultimate goal of them just anything of a
there this seems to be something and i'm not real
it's a trend now yeah a lot they're cutting and
something they feel like there's something inside of

Of cutting is a way of releasing it and getting it out do you think that's the same
thing we're looking at here i mean do you think that's demonic of course it's evil
in nature but would that be actual demonic possession there could be a component of
that you know that's why you know working with people you always want to determine
is it something of a mental health issue is it something of a spiritual issue so

At least i will work with people in the mental health field and trying to come to a
decision on what people are actually dealing with and it could be a combination of
both do you have a pretty good support room for that i do so yeah there are
professionals that i work with right because it's important to network with others
because the goal is to give somebody

The true help they need whether it be spiritual physical or mental right so you
know whether it's the the exorcist or the the doctor or the psychiatrist we should
all be trying to work together now that doesn't always happen because there can be
people in you know in the medical sciences that don't really accept the reality or
the possibility that one

Is dealing with spiritual entities okay which is why i always say that i'm not
asking the psychiatrist or the medical doctor do you think this person is possessed
i will make that decision myself right but i want them to weigh in on it i want the
best possible information that i can have right because i also think it's possible
to do greater harm if one has an exorcism prayed over them

When in reality they need to see a psychiatrist yeah that'd be kind of

counterproductive to helping them yeah because then i just break them more right
and that's not not a good thing to do yeah i see now i've seen another interview as
you said that you're trained to be a skeptic right i mean you are the last line
there yeah i should i have to reach beyond the doubt that the person in front of me
is truly possessed so i

I am a skeptic i should be the last one to believe every other possible explanation
needs to be looked at i like that that that should probably confound the scientific
community that calls us all hocus pocus or whatever i mean you know you're a very
level-headed man about this and you know also the faith that you look at things in
that light you know and the thing is i think here in the united states

Because maybe we've become more scientific that maybe we're not we're less likely
to believe that there could be spiritual causes for what people are experiencing
right but i've traveled other parts of the world and they readily accept the
possibility that there's a spiritual explanation more part of reality for the
spiritual world yeah as a whole i believe that you know many

Churches that we visit and been to it feels that way that they not necessarily just
in the demonic nature but i feel christians should focus more on that reality is
more spiritual instead of it's just something i'm going to find out one day when i
die you know i don't know what heaven's like whenever i get there but the spiritual
world is a part that we interact with all the time every day you

Know it should be more of a reality for christians i think both good and bad both
sides to that as well in verses 6 and 7 he says but when he saw jesus afar off he
ran and worshiped him and he cried with a loud voice and said what have i to do
with thee jesus thou son of the most high god i is one of thee by god that thou let
me not now is this is this the man speaking this in both verses that he ran to
jesus this was not the demon of

Course this was the man coming to worship jesus correct and then seven the same
thing he says i cried um and cried with a loud voice and said what have i had to do
with e jesus again this isn't the demon speaking am i right on that interpretation
or is this the demon now speaking what have i had to do with you i think the demon
is the demon speaking because demons when they were cast out

Of heaven were cast to the earth or they were roamed until the final judgment so
the question with the demons would be like have you come before the appointed time
you know you're not supposed to be here yet this is still our time if you put all
of this in the category the first the chapter before it um where jesus was asleep
you know uh and the ship the

Storm came he put it to a rest it gives me the mental image i believe this is about
night time when they they come over here so it's him and the disciples they're in
the ship it's night time and they're in this uh cemetery yeah they come out and up
there's like the public enemy number one the guy that nobody wants to get around
you know he's like the guy in your community that you know don't go into his house
he's just

The guy you don't want don't want anything to do with but christ met him where he
was in the center of death i mean in the midst of all of it and completely
tormented him through that i mean he still found the humanity and the human the
purpose together he could have easily just let that go and go preach to a crowd
somewhere nobody if this one recorded nobody would have ever known he'd done this
you know it wasn't like

It was such a big thing that really started some major religion the town rejected
him after this you know with the swan which we'll get into but um to me i guess it
just really over my eyes of the compassion that jesus has for his creation that he
will go to the ends of anything just to be able to get one person safe or to bring
out those enemies so is that is that your your mindset too that's what's in your
heart you know you'll do whatever just as long

As it helps heal somebody it helps that compassion and that's what your ministry is
mainly about and one should always make the distinction between the person as an
individual and the divided possession so always make the distinction i think jesus
makes that distinction there you know you put yourself in the sandals here the
disciples sitting in the boat like i said night time it's it's something horror
movies are made out of

I would i mean i would have been traveling to get out like okay i'm going to be
i'll follow jesus but i will get behind him i'm going to run down that hill the
moment i can if this goes wrong just go south i'm out of here yeah so but it does i
mean it gives some you know insight i think is to the church as a whole hey this is
what jesus did this is what we need to be doing as well and how we should treat the
you know people that are suffering in any

Way not even demonic just people that are suffering and he said unto him come out
of the man thou unclean spirit would you say that was the fastest exorcism ever
recorded in history and i think it's in uh maybe matthew he just says go the power
of jesus christ is it's amazing you know but it's his presence is there um he says
because the demons told even
Though they don't they know who jesus is he's the son of god they know that right
they don't embrace it but they can state it as a matter of fact right yeah they
know the authority and he asked him uh what is thy name and he answered saying my
name is legion for we are many and i heard you say in another interview that's
that's a part

Of the right as well right to get the demon to manifest to speak its name yep
because once you know a person's name you have a certain amount of power and
authority over them so that's what jesus was doing here as well then what's
interesting in that too because it it goes back from the singular in the plural you
know it's the demon but now it's legion you know it's it's one it's many right

And that's the whole crazy demonic world it can be one that you know it's just so
difficult to try to really put one's you know finger on so to speak so i know
you've said in another one that you you've cast out many demons out of one correct
how do you know i mean how do you know how many are there like you you gave the
example before uh yeah i would have been fooled by that that person was like yeah
okay stop

Praying it's not praying i'm good now thank god so how do you know that when
they're all cast out it's the uh the look on the person's face everyone that i've
done there's always a shriek or a screen and the person's face begins just to glow
really i mean i don't if you've never seen it in a set image again of that painting
of a saint in the halo right you can just tell that the person is now in the in the

Presence and the glory of god and there's no evil that's even present amen that is
amazing yeah so how about yeah the bible talks about revelations of why i believe
the catholic church teaches the same thing one-third of the angels correct failed
was saved so is there does the catholic church know how many those are i mean how
many demons are out there running around do you have any well we know in the book
of revelation when it comes to angels it

Says there are myriads and myriads and thousands and thousands meaning they can't
even be counted so you got your work cut out for you there's a lot of them out
there yeah and yeah there are a lot now do they need to uh do they need to embody a
host i mean can they survive just in the spiritual realm i believe they have to be
they can be in the spiritual realm because they can afflict people

Or places because there can be the catholic church identifies four different types
of extraordinary demonic activity so we've been talking about demonic possession
but there could be demonic infestation the presence of evil in a house so the demon
would not have to take on the body to do that to torment

People there could be a demonic vexation people believe they're being physically
attacked by having marks and cuts and bites and bruises on their body there could
be demonic obsession mental attacks literally the devil is trying to get inside of
somebody's head but really possession is the demon attempting to take on human form

Okay so uh how would you if you've ever been called for something like that whether
it be poltergeist or any activity like that or an item that's been cursed how would
you just kind of have to go by the holy spirit what it tells you in that instance
and then you say say a special prayer of blessing or exorcism prayer for the
location if the

Object is inherently evil you know like a voodoo dog i mean it's created for the
purpose of evil then it should be destroyed right i think like an ouija board is
inherently evil right that's it's a purpose because there can be some object that
is not inherently evil that maybe has been cursed and would just offer a blessing
on that because i had somebody tell me one time that some minister had told them
that the

Antique dishes that she received from her grandmother were cursed and so they need
to be destroyed i'm like well that makes sense to me because dishes are not
inherently evil right yeah it's likely with it you know people are not inherently
evil you're going to destroy somebody if they've been cursed right so the question
is if it's inherently evil it should be destroyed

But if it's not then you just take it from the realm of satan by blessing it and
put it back into the realm of god okay so how do you view how do you view halloween
we're coming up to that and i've always that's been something that's been debated
amongst our churches and pastors all have their different opinions on um really i
feel like it's a split decision half and half after against it even doing it the
other half's like well as

Long as it's only about getting a bunch of free candy who cares what would your
take be on that holiday of itself i think the holiday if you historically it was
called all hallows eve you know november the 1st on the catholic church calendar is
all saints day right to honor all the saints and then november the 2nd is all souls
day just to remember all the faithful departed

So historically it wasn't what we celebrated i think it had a good intention i

think how it's celebrated today one could probably make the valid case that it's
inherently evil because it's about glorifying evil and things of the occult and
magic it's about glorifying the devil so in that sense you know there's nothing
good about that you know if kids want to dress up in a

Costume and you know go get candy i don't see anything wrong with that but do you
need to dress up like a ghost or a goblin or a demon or you can dress up as a
cowboy or cinderella or somebody like that that's how we've always got a
daughterhouse not yeah no demons no devil we don't have to glamorize evil if we're
doing that i think we've we've fallen in the wrong direction right because it's
always been debated amongst

Us you know like you take christmas too which is clearly a great great you know a
day set aside to celebrate the birth of christ wonderful how could you mess that up
well what's the world do with it money money money you know well halloween becomes
the second largest holiday for spending oh see i didn't know that yeah it's right
behind christmas now america and all the decorations oh decorations

You look at how people decorate their homes and everything but americans now spend
right after christmas halloween is number two on this spending list and so you're
trying to make a book and there's a great line of scripture you cannot serve both
god and mammon so if you're trying to focus on making a buck but you think you can
glorify evil just for your bottom line

Well for a while it may appear that you have the upper hand but the devil will
always expect his due sure yeah he never shows the reality the rest of the story
like we talk about earlier he never tells the rest of the story of what so lure you
in yeah and then you hold them and by the time you realize it it's too late yeah i
always preached about that with what you don't

See them very much now on television or at least not as much about you know the
beer commercials i remember growing up with it was always always a party you know
beautiful women on boats and cars and all this stuff you know what i've seen out of
drinking and drinking and driving is horrible car wrecks people are brutally
mutilated satan put that on a commercial for coors like and see yeah buying that
yeah i ain't going to drink that satan does not
Show us the reality of what's in this that's a horrible you know they did the same
thing with adam and eve he he just changed one little word you know he kind of lied
it was one of them half truths i guess sodastream which was a full lie and of
course now look at the world we have today all because that one act of disobedience
um they asked him what is that name in

Verse 10 he says and he besought him much that he would not send them away out of
the country here's the thought i had are they territorial i think one could make
the claim that angelic creatures were territory okay the god assigned angels to
different territories and then even one of the ones that failed they still claimed
some dominion over that area

So you look at kind of historically you know some traditions and belief would be
that angelic creatures were assigned to territory by god and then the ones that
fell became demons still maintain that they wanted to still stay in that that
mindset so to speak because that's the thing too you know a catholic perspective
again we talk about a hierarchy of angels well there's a hierarchy of

Demons too okay so this you know even my experiences when somebody's possessed it's
not really a question of one demon it's usually multiple and there's a higher
ranking demon and the weaker ones are the first to go because they can't resist the
ones of a higher nature so to speak would make the claim that they have the right
to be there so that followed them from the creation

From the fall in heaven they were in that same category so to speak and then they
felt they stayed in that sense yeah that goes back to the fact what you just talked
about earlier where they don't grow they are what they are they don't they don't
change yeah that makes sense because when angels were created you can look at you
know they were in the presence of all they could know it's not like again we can
learn

Something and you know it's like having infused knowledge like a computer
downloaded with information that's why a a demon could speak a language that he
didn't otherwise know doesn't have to study it to learn it right it can just call
it up right it already exists by virtue of their by virtue of their angelic nature
right even though they fell from grace they still retained that knowledge

Why did satan want that authority why did he hate why does he hate us so much to
the point he wants us to go to hell i think it goes back to at least the
understanding of what was satan's position in the heavenly choir before the fall
and the belief is that lucifer was his name means lighted one that he was a
seraphim angel which means the fiery ones

And he was the ranking of the seraphim angels so he was closest to the throne of
god okay and then when he came to understand the incarnation that god was going to
take on human form and then human flesh would be elevated higher than him we think
of the ascension of jesus even when he ascended back into heaven

You know it was with his body and the wounds and all of a sudden this if we realize
that human flesh is being elevated higher than him because many people will talk
about the pride of satan but again i think it's also the rejection of the
incarnation the human flesh you know the line of scripture you know when you're
invited to a banquet don't

Take the place of honor somebody more important may have been invited take a lower
place then you may be invited up well he thought he was at the supreme position but
then with the incarnation he would be relegated lower and he just could not accept
that if you want yeah that's that's something i just always had in the back of my
mind that
Asked as many people as i could because i think for me my response would be the
incarnation okay it says in verse 11 now there was there nigh uh to the mountains a
great herder swine feeding and all the devils we sought him saying send us into the
swat that we may enter them and 13 and fourth with jesus gave them leave and the
unclean spirits went out

And entered into the swan and the herd ran violently down his deep place into the
sea they were about 2 000 and were choked in the sea and they that fed the swine uh
fled and told it in the city and in the country and they went out to see uh what
has uh was that was done and they came to jesus to see him that was uh possessed
with the devil and he had the legion sitting and

Clothed and in his right mind and they were afraid so this one that i never thought
of this animals can be possessed yes that would be a form of infestation okay it
could be a location an object could be an animal okay how how would they have that
entry point and to their existence their life so to speak obviously they would not
have done anything to bring that on like

In that case jesus permitted him to enter the swine and of course it's interesting
that swine is considered to be an unclean animal right and he's also in the
territory of non-jews okay which is why then they even have swine to begin with you
would not have found that amongst the israelites because it was an unclean animal
and the people were afraid

Again kind of wrapping up going right back to that you know why do you think so
many people are afraid to come to jesus christ you know around home there's way
more people that are unsaved but believe they know who jesus is they know who god
is they you know they were raised they were taught it and they know that they're
not safe i think people are afraid of the commitment they're going to have to make

Okay i think they're afraid of the commitment because again the attendees
townspeople they come the man is now free and i think they're thinking to themself
now what does this mean for me and then are they willing to make the changes in
their life that will reflect their choice for christ that's it that's why i think
you know

They they eventually say could you leave right we want to go back to the way that
things work yeah and again going back and forth gave jesus out of that much
compassion that he would go do that but the room town people assuming that this is
where this man came from their own people wasn't even the miracle that was placed

They were more interested in the swine going on you know we lost our economics or
lobbying that i think i've heard that talk one time but not the miracle that was
performed that day a friend of mine asked me once that you know have i ever seen
miracles and i said well yeah i see miracles all the time i've seen people get
saved i've seen people go and give their life to jesus christ and i know that life
you're

Talking about on their face that's shining you can see that change in them that
something else was happening the point i was going to make in the passage is uh
let's see there's the verses that come right afterwards so the chant the
townspeople reject him but then it says that when he was coming to the ship he that
had been possessed with the devil prayed him that

He might be with him so here's a man that wants to follow jesus he wants to go with
him and how does jesus say how how be it jesus suffered him not but saith unto him
go home to thy friends and tell them how great things the lord has done for thee
and have had compassion on the no how often does jesus tell somebody not to follow
him true that's very powerful words right there right so jesus takes a man

That was living amongst the dead in the tombs and now places him back amongst the
living amen so the town people reject him but you could say that jesus now wants
this man to go back in the midst of his family the midst of the living and to
evangelize right possibly in mind a lot of the woman at the well you know everybody
focuses on the uh you know jesus talking to her knowing

You know how many husbands she had and the man oh that but you read the rest of
that story and she goes back and she witnesses yeah and to the town and they all
come and that that started to sing in their whole thing you know he knew everything
i did and that to me that's the powerful part of that story because he's sitting
there teaching the disciples about the harvest is plentiful you know and then here
comes these all these town people and it

Was all just by that one witness that one experience that woman had to go back into
the town and you know hey i met this guy and you know he knew everything about me
it is not the christ i think one of the key ingredients of the christian life when
you read through the bible we hear the phrase bear fruit a lot yes well to me
that's the key to the christian life are we bearing fruit for christ amen so

Whether it's the woman at the well who goes in you know witnesses whether it's the
man who is possessed by legion who witnesses that's really the goal for each and
every one of us is how do we witness the christ that we bear fruit for him and when
we do that i think we're really living out authentically what it means to be a
christian i believe so too all right well do you have any uh advice

For anybody out there that's watching this i would say again the key ingredient you
know the devil is nothing to fear people shouldn't be alarmed about the reality of
evil again one commits their life to christ they live out that relationship you
know again if you're going to church if you're praying the devil is already on the
run

You know the devil is like a a line
roaring lion goes about seeking one
right but again don't be the one he
and if we're solid in our faith the
stalking its prey
from first peter your opponent the devil as a
to devour you know he wants to instill fear
wants to devour by being solid in your faith
devil is nothing to fear and just like a lion

It's eventually going to give up on one that seems formidable and go after one who
is weaker just don't be that weak one don't be the weak one it's kind of like the
uh the saying of camping you know just don't be the fast little and you'll be all
right that's right i don't have to win the race i just can't be laughed right
you'll be all right yeah if a bear comes along just don't be last that's right

Amen all right well thank you so much i definitely appreciate it once again you're
welcome be able to sit down and talk with you see your salad things