A Varṇāśrama-dhārma Society

An Exact Transcription of Instructions

Given by

His Divine Grace

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

On His Morning Walks In Vṛndāvana, India

March 1974

Copyright (C) Bhaktivedanta Book Trust 1974

 MORNING WALKS WITH SRILA PRABHUPĀDA
Vṛndāvana, India

The following is taken from the morning walks in Vṛndāvana, India directly
after the Māyāpur Festival of 1974, wherein His Divine Grace talks about
setting up Varṇāśrāma colleges and Vaiṣṇava communities throughout the
world.

DAY ONE
Srila Prabhupāda: The politician's business will be to exploit the poor citizens and they
will be embarrassed and harassed so much. By one side no sufficient rain and therefore
scarcity of food and on the other side taxation by the government. In this way the people will
be so much harassed that they will give up their homes and go to the forest. Unless they take
to Kṛṣṇa consciousness they will not be saved. The varṇāśrāma college has to be established
immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our centers, a varṇāśrāma college should be
established to train all divisions: one class brāhmaṇa, one class kṣatriya, one class vaiśya and
one class śūdra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual
activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the śūdras.
Devotee: Is the śūdra supposed to take sannyāsa also?
Srila Prabhupāda: No. Those who are śūdras, they should not be allowed to take sannyāsa —
only those who are qualified brāhmaṇas will be allowed to take sannyāsa.
Devotee: Kṣatriya used to take sannyāsa?
Srila Prabhupāda: Some of them but not all of them.
Another Devotee: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yudhiṣṭhira Mahārāja did not take sannyāsa but he left home. There
is no need of accepting sannyāsa. One has to perform the devotional activities — that is
the real thing. Simply by changing dress one does not improve unless he takes seriously
to the principles of devotional service. But in Kali Yuga they will think, "Because I
have changed my dress I have become a big sannyāsi." (laughter) "Because I have got
sacred thread now I am a big brāhmaṇa." There must be regular training!
Devotee: Srila Prabhupāda, in the varṇāśrāma society, are most of the citizen’s śūdras?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. The number of śūdras is always bigger. Just like in university
education, the number of graduates and post-graduates they are less. Other's numbers
are bigger.
Bhagavān: The whole idea is then at the end of everyone's life everyone is required to
leave home and perform devotional activities but not necessarily to take sannyāsa.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, devotional activities. Either he leaves home or he does not leave
home; that does not matter. He must continue from the very beginning. For the
management of affairs we are required to divide because there are different classes of
brains. So those who have very intellectual brains, they should become brāhmaṇas.
Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as kṣatriyas.
Those who are fit for producing food and taking care of the cows, they should be trained
as vaiśyas. And the balance, they are all śūdras. This is the thing. Everywhere you will
find this division — natural.
One class man, very intelligent
One class of man, very strong, good brain for management and administration.
One class of man fit for tilling the ground, producing food and taking care of the cows.
The balance, śūdras.
So in our society these divisions should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they
should be engaged in preaching, reading books, instruction, and taking care of Deity
worship in the temple. Another class will be strong managers to see that everything is
going nicely and everyone is engaged. Not that only eating and sleeping. Everyone must
be engaged, employed. So if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should
be engaged with plows. You see, there must be activity. Otherwise, there must be
dysentery. Eating and sleeping, you cannot digest. So in this way our society should
manage. Not that, "Give me second initiation, sacred thread, and after taking, business
finished, now I am liberated, let me eat and sleep." This should be stopped. Therefore,
we have 50 (units) of land and I have calculated in Māyāpur, setting aside 20 (units) for
the temple and grazing ground for the cows, 30 (units) of land, The production should
be 300 mounds of grain but we have produced only 180. So there should be 120 excess
in grain. Instead of this excess they want 10,000 rupees a month for maintenance. This
management is going on! These things are not discussed in GBC? So what kind of
discussing was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of the budget
was presented for 10,000 rupees a month and when it was scrutinizingly studied,
immediately it came down to 6,000. So what kind of budget? So management should
be arranged in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he will fall sick.
Sickness means idleness. All excess — eating, sleeping. No excess — no lust,
"yuktāhāra... yukta." Yukta means "actually what you need." So everyone in each
center, this system should be introduced and there must be practical application of the
varṇāśrāma at the same time this program of devotional service. Then it will go on
very nicely.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular
occupation?
Srila Prabhupāda: No. Devotees are devotees. Actually, devotees are above brāhmaṇa,
kṣatriya, vaiśya, and śūdra. But, for management of material things, we have to divide.
Just like in the body there are divisions. Kṛṣṇa, He was acting as a kṣatriya and in His
boyhood He was acting as a vaiśya. But Kṛṣṇa is neither vaiśya or kṣatriya or
brāhmaṇa. This is the example; When He was a cowherd boy His business was vaiśya
and when He was fighting in the battlefield of Kurukṣetra He was a kṣatriya. He was
marrying as a kṣatriya. So although He is acting sometimes as vaiśya, sometimes as
kṣatriya, He is neither of these. So devotee is like that He may act in any position but
he is above all the material conceptions of life. That is perfection.
Devotee: Srila Prabhupāda, what should kṣatriyas be taught?
Srila Prabhupāda: Kṣatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that
everyone is engaged and if there is any fight he must come forward to fight — this is
kṣatriya business. There may be fight, somebody may attack us. Not that they simply
chant Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare / Hare Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma
Rāma Hare Hare. No! (Srila Prabhupāda laughs) They must come forward. Yes, they
are prepared to fight. That is kṣatriya.
Another Devotee: Srila Prabhupāda, in our society we are awarding brāhmaṇa initiation,
second initiation...
Srila Prabhupāda: No, no. Initiation should go on. You do not understand what I have
said. That is for Vaiṣṇava. Vaiṣṇava and Viṣṇu. Just like Kṛṣṇa is Viṣṇu. He is not
human being but He is acting like human being. Similarly, Vaiṣṇava is transcendental.
But for proper management in the material world, one should be acting like brāhmaṇa,
one should be acting like kṣatriya. That is required. Just like you are actually doing so.
Some of you are preaching and some of you are cleansing the temple. That does not
mean that a sannyāsi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The
position of Vaiṣṇava is the same. But for management one is cleansing, one is seeing to
the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that
because I have taken sannyāsa therefore I cannot any longer do anything. If need be, he
has to act as kṣatriya or śūdra. It doesn't matter. But for management, this division
must be there, otherwise it will be mismanagement. A Vaiṣṇava coming to the position
of doing the work of śūdra does not mean that he has become śūdra. He is Vaiṣṇava.
Try to understand this point. Just like on the stage if you want to play something, one
must be king, one must be queen or something, but neither of them are king or queen.
That is stage play. Similarly, to manage things in the material world, we have to "guna
karma". Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed
according to quality.
Devotee: So in our movement the leaders must decide how every devotee and every
resource is engaged properly.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. That is leadership. Which man is fitted for which work.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Utilization of all resources, including devotees, funds and everything?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. The first thing is to see that everyone is engaged. How they are
to be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone.
Nobody should be without engagement. Then there will be idleness. An idle mind is
the devil's workshop. The devil is woman and money. This is the devil. So if you
remain idle then you shall think of devils. So we should see that everyone is engaged
properly. The instructions in this connection are important. Everyone should be trained
as Vaiṣṇava and at the same time he should work in different positions for management.
So if our men are not prepared to do plowing work, Tamal Kṛṣṇa Mahārāja, what is the
use of purchasing land?
Tamal Kṛṣṇa Swami: They are not prepared, Srila Prabhupāda.
Srila Prabhupāda: They have to engage a laborer and spend 200 rupees for him at least
including salary and food and the production is nil. In this way there must be 10,000 to
20,000 rupees expenditure. Am I right or not? You bring money some way from
anywhere and spend lavishly! What kind of management is this? You should consider,
after all, that money is earned with hard labor. A person will bring money with hard
labor and other person will spend it like irresponsible prince. That should be stopped.
That is management. Especially if the religion means to make a class of men simply
idle. What is religion called? The opiate of the people. Therefore they are against
religion. But actually, if we show what we are producing, we are managing, we are
educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. They are saying that we are
escaping, don't you see? That we are escaping the responsibility of worldly life and we
are engaging in some religion. That is the tendency; everywhere the government is
complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples or
increase the number of devotees because they say that, "These are a class of idle men.
They cannot do anything and they take to this religious life." That is the tendency.
They are thinking like that but if we show that you are actually doing something ideal,
then they will appreciate. Make a small community showing ideal life, not idle life.
Now in Bombay they have refused because they are under the impression that
Europeans have come here under some sentiment, so what is the use? They have taken
some plea and rejected our proposition. (This reference is to the government who has
refused to let us build a temple on land we have acquired in Bombay.) We are making
counter-propaganda against māyā, but māyā is also very strong. She also makes
propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become a very sincere devotee, it
will not be possible to conquer over māyā. You will succumb. In India the brāhmaṇa
class, they say **I have been born in brāhmaṇa family so why should I do this work?*'
You see? So therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still they
accept any kind of work. It doesn't matter. And here in India if he happens to be a
brāhmaṇa he'll not take any kind of work. Just like plowing, he'll not agree. Therefore,
so much land... The kṣatriya is thinking he is kṣatriya; brāhmaṇa is thinking he is
brāhmaṇa; the land is lying fallow; there is no production; so how is the land plowed?
He will go to the office and fight with a pen as a kṣatriya and instead of studying the
Veda, he studies the rules and regulations given by the office. But he'll not come to
plowing. Therefore there is scarcity of food. He'll go to a mill to work as an ordinary
laborer but for plowing he'll not come. So much land is here lying unutilized. And they
are crying for grain. The same example, I was in New York City. The whole city is
filled with dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaners. But if you go to Central Park you
will see that so many hippies are lying down idle.
Devotee: Unemployment.
Srila Prabhupāda: No. Not unemployment! They will not work. That means
Mismanagement. Why should they remain there? Why should they not have
employment? The government is not doing that.
Devotee: They do not feel inspired. No one has desire.
Srila Prabhupāda: That means mismanagement. You had no desire for Kṛṣṇa
consciousness but you have taken to it somehow or other. That is management. Yes,
that is management.
Devotees: Jai, Srila Prabhupāda! All glories to Srila Prabhupāda!
Srila Prabhupāda: The child does not want to go to school but it is the duty of the parent
to send him to school somehow or other. So the government's duty is that a man should
be employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment; that is a
very dangerous position of the society. Now, this unemployment question is very strong
all over the world. They say, "This government is not good. This system is not good.
This is not good." And he'll do nothing; he'll personally do nothing. Just like the
hippies — they criticize everyone but he'll not do anything. All of these descriptions
are there in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. Can the government utilize this land? Everywhere
you will find land, everywhere. Who was with me in London?
Hamsadutta: Last time I was with you.
Srila Prabhupāda: So much land lying vacant
Hamsadutta: Yes, so much land.
Srila Prabhupāda: They have taken into consideration, "What is the use of working with
the land? We can kill one animal and eat it." Easy, because he doesn't care about sinful
activities. “If I can eat the cow, why should I take so much trouble to till?" This is
going on all over the world.
Indian Devotee: Government nowadays simply gets money and does not work.
Srila Prabhupāda: There is employment even for the women. Gandhi also studied this.
Women should be engaged for weaving, spinning. Everyone should be engaged. That
is management So our GBC members must see that in every temple everyone is
engaged.
Devotee: That is the meaning of leadership.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, that is the meaning of leadership.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: And that all the devotees are protected.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Everyone should be engaged. He'll never fall sick. The
farmers, their sons, they're giving up the farming business.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Going to the city.
Srila Prabhupāda: yes, going to the city. In your country also?
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Yes, Srila Prabhupāda.
Srila Prabhupāda: They have nothing to do with farming. They are just interested in
petrol. If they can get money underground, why should they work? (He is referring to
Iran.)

DAY TWO
Srila Prabhupāda: You know that business in your country — topless, bottomless?
Devotee: Yes.
Srila Prabhupāda: They want. That is their regular business. In India also, in the hotels,
their regular business is to pick up college girls and they are enjoyed by the guests. So
many things are going on, on this basis of sinful activities all over the world. So if the
whole population becomes polluted, how can they expect good government? Some of
them will take charge of the government but they are polluted. Any carpenter working
in the government, they are very pleased to reply that they are maintaining themselves
by selling literature. Similarly, if it comes to the notice of the government that we are
maintaining ourselves by producing food, they will like it very much.
Bhagavan: The children in the society will go to gurukula and from there it will be
decided what their work will be?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. First of all there should be instruction on spiritual life according
to his position. Our spiritual life is the main thing — we should always remember —
but for management we have to make divisions.
Bhagavan: So actually, the whole society could be Vaiṣṇava.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. They are Vaiṣṇava, but because you have to live in the material
world there must be division of work. If everyone wants to be the brain, then who will
act as the legs? That is also required. If everyone says, "I am not going to do the work
of legs; I want simply to work as ..." No. It is needed! The brain is needed; the hand
is needed; the belly is needed; the leg is needed. So that you will have to divide: who
will work as brain, who will work as hand, who will work as belly, who will work as
leg. The main aim is how to maintain the body perfectly fit. That should be the aim —
how the society will go on nicely. And for management, this brain, hand, leg, belly,
must be divided. Just like there is slight difference between those who are directly
engaged in temple worship and those who are going out to sell books. Apparently there
is difference but basically there is no difference. If one can sell books nicely, why
should he be engaged in temple worship? He can do better work in that way. But there
is no difference between selling the books and temple worship or washing the dish.
There is no difference because it is all transcendental. Just like Kṛṣṇa’s hands and legs,
there is no difference, "aṅgāni yasya sakalendriya-vṛttimanti." (He quotes from Brahma
Samhita)
Madhuvisa Swami: Srila Prabhupāda, Kṛṣṇa says in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Those who
repeat this message of Bhagavad-gītā, those persons are most dear to Me. There is no
one more dear to Me than he." Now wouldn't that indicate that a preacher is higher than
a worker?
Srila Prabhupāda: No! This is preaching — to help. Suppose you are preaching and I
am helping you. His is also preaching.
Ātreya Ṛṣi: This building is also preaching.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, this is also preaching. So it is not that preaching simply means
talking. Preaching means everything. Construction is also preaching, designing is also
preaching. Everything is preaching. Otherwise, what is the use of spending so much
money if it is not preaching?
Devotee: Anything that has to do with propagating Kṛṣṇa consciousness in any way.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, it is also preaching. There are nine examples of devotional
service, but it appears that śravaṇam, hearing, is different from kīrtanam, speaking or
chanting. Or kīrtanam is different from śravaṇam, or pāda-sevanam, or arcanam. But
they are all perfect So one should be engaged either in śravaṇam, kīrtanam, smaraṇaṁ,
as he is fit This is the way. So if I cannot speak, kīrtanam, then I can hear. This is also
perfect So one may argue that speaking is better than hearing. No, both ways, either
hearing or speaking, they are the same thing because it is for Kṛṣṇa. "Śravaṇam
kīrtanam Viṣṇu." In our society, every work is transcendental, for preaching... every
work. But one must be engaged in some work. That is important. Otherwise every
work is preaching. See that everyone is engaged. There was an advertisement by the
railroad department. Their monogram was a wheel on the carriage and it is written that
every employee of the railway should see that that wheel is running on. Now, suppose
in the office the clerks are working. So how they will see that the wheel is going on?
Because in the office of the railway there is some complaint. There is some claim. So
many things are depending on that wheel. So they should expedite their business so that
the wheel will not stop. It must go on. It is very nice instruction that the wheel is going
on. Suppose some station has asked for ten wagons immediately and they require the
sanction of the division superintendent in the office. So the clerk should help the
progress so immediately the sanction is done and the wheel can go on. Do you
understand? Everyone can help that the railway wheel is going on, although apparently
it will appear that, "What does this clerk have to do with the wheel going on?" Is it
clear?
Bhagavan: So there is so much to do in Kṛṣṇa’s service that everyone should be engaged
somehow.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, everyone should know ... Suppose that one is engaged in
cooking prasādam. He should see that nice prasādam is served to the workers quickly
so that they can take prasādam, be healthy, and go on preaching. So he's helping
preaching by cooking. Just like you are walking and the brain is also working. "Go this
side. Go that side. The car is coming." Brain says to the leg, "Come this side."
Everyone is working. The leg is working. The brain is working. His hand is working.
The tongue is also working. The business of the tongue and the business of the leg is
different but the aim is the central point in Kṛṣṇa — to help to serve Him. Then
everything is one. It is absolute. The Māyāvādī philosophers, they cannot understand it.
They think that Kṛṣṇa is working like an ordinary man. "How He can become God,"
they say, "It is māyā so Kṛṣṇa is also māyā," Therefore we call them Māyāvādī.
Bhagavan: The leader must be very expert so people will be happy in their engagement.
Srila Prabhupāda: Everyone should be expert. The leader must be expert and the worker
must be expert so that he will follow the instruction of the leader, if the leader says
something and the worker says, 'I’ll consider it later on," then how can the leader
execute his leadership? Both of them should be cooperating and know that we are all
working for Kṛṣṇa
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Srila Prabhupāda, we have so few men compared to other religions but we
always make such big propaganda.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, it is admitted. Hare Kṛṣṇa movement, it is admitted,
Ātreya Ṛṣi: Because we are not lazy like the Māyāvādīs.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. They say, "ahaṁ brahmāsmi.” I am now brahma, therefore let
me stop work, just eat." Make your belly. (Srila Prabhupāda exaggerates patting a fat
belly and everyone laughs.) This is māyāvadi sannyāsīs. They think that, "Now I have
become brahma I have nothing to do. I've become Nārāyaṇa," Then why are you
eating? And for one chapati you will find that there are many māyāvadis. They’re
very busy simply collecting chapatis.
DAY THREE
Srila Prabhupāda: It is another college, a varṇāśrāma college.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: For the public in general?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, for anyone. Just like the engineering college is open for
everyone. They must be ready to take up the training. Similarly, in this varṇāśrāma
college the student must be ready to take up the training.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Would it be for a particular age group?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. For any education from childhood. Yes, education means from
childhood. We are getting so many sannyāsīs. They should teach. The teaching should
be done by the sannyāsīs. Just like in missionary school the fathers are teachers.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: How would it differ from Gurukula?
Srila Prabhupāda: Gurukula is only for the small children. Preliminary, primary. And
when the children are grown up, they should be sent to the varṇāśrāma school or
college for further development.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Should there be teaching in some particular skill or varṇa?
Say, for example, a person is a kṣatriya by inclination.
Srila Prabhupāda: No. Inclination can be trained also, but we should take little
advantage of inclination. Not that it should be decided by the ... Inclination or no
inclination, we can ... That will be done. This is the most important item because
people have been spoiled all over the world by being misguided by these so-called
leaders. Therefore varṇāśrāma college is required.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Srila Prabhupāda, still I am not quite clear. In other words,
will we teach, for example, Bhagavad-gītā and Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam? And how much
will be expected of the students? Will he live with us and follow four regulative
principles and things like that? Will they just come to classes or what?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Come to classes we won't get because no one has got any taste
for these things. Boarding school. It will be like this.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Should there be any material subject matters taught like in
Gurukula?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like material subject matter, kṣatriya, brāhmaṇa.
Vyāsadeva described in Bhagavad-gītā what are the symptoms of brāhmaṇa, what are
the symptoms of kṣatriya. The kṣatriya should be taught how to fight. There will be
military training. There will be training on how to kill. And vaiśyas will be trained on
how to give protection to the cows, how to till the field and grow food. Practical.
Devotee: They shall be taught business also, the vaiśyas?
Srila Prabhupāda: Business? This rascal business, no. Business means that if you have
got extra grain or extra foodstuffs you can sell where there is necessity, where there is
want. That is business. We are not going to do that. That is śūdra business. The real
business is that you produce enough food grains as much as possible and you eat and
distribute, that's all. This is business. It will not require so high technical education.
Anyone can till the ground and grow food. Is it difficult? This is business. The first
thing is that everyone, man and animal, especially the cows, they must be properly fed
so that they will become very stout and strong. The cows will supply milk and man will
work hard, without suffering from dysentery. They must work hard. In any capacity —
work as a teacher, work as a kṣatriya, work as a plowman, work as a general assistant.
He must work. Everyone should be employed and his employment will be provided
from any of these groups according to his capacity: either as brāhmaṇa, a kṣatriya, a
vaiśya or a śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: What kind of training is there for a śūdra?
Srila Prabhupāda: Śūdra is general assistant, order carrier. He has no intelligence. He
doesn't require intelligence. Do this, that's all.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: What would his business be at the varṇāśrama college?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, that is also training, to become obedient because people are not
obedient. What are these hippies? They are not so obedient. So obedience also
requires training. If you have no intelligence you cannot do anything independently.
Just be obedient to the other higher three classes. That is śūdra. He must agree to abide
by the orders of the brāhmaṇas, kṣatriyas and vaiśyas, that's all, so that nobody will be
unemployed. Everyone should be trained to sleep from six to eight hours, attend
meeting, chant, attend arotika, and the balance he must work hard. Not that he sleeps
unlimitedly; there is no limit.
Another Devotee: Srila Prabhupāda, what class do the arts and crafts come under?
Srila Prabhupāda: Śūdra, they are śūdras. The arts and crafts can be trained up to the
śūdras. At the present moment they are giving too much stress on the arts and crafts.
Therefore, the whole population is śūdra. That is the difficulty. All people are drawn
by the attraction of getting a high salary while taking so-called technical education and
all of them are working in the factory. No one is working in the field. They are śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: In our society today such a person is accepted as a philosopher.
Srila Prabhupāda: Artist?
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Yes, the artist
Srila Prabhupāda: No, artist is the business of the śūdra. Yes, in your western countries
the rascals are writing philosophy on sex life which is known by the dog. He is writing
so many things. What is this philosophy? Sex life. Even the dog knows how to have
sex life and the philosopher is writing philosophy. This kind of philosophy can be
appreciated by the rascals but we do not appreciate it. They are not philosophers.
Philosopher means who is searching for the Absolute Truth. That is philosophy.
Darśana. Darśana means to search out what is the Ultimate. (Srila Prabhupāda quotes
from Bhagavad-gītā 7:16) “ārto jijñāsur arthārthī jñānī" These are philosophers. Even
an ārto, he is praying to the Supreme Authority, "God, I am very hungry, please give
me my daily bread." He is also philosopher because he is searching for the Absolute
Truth. He is philosopher, not this Freud rascal elaborating how to have sex life. This
kind of philosopher is just like in the jungle the jackal becomes the king. In the western
countries the people, they are all less than śūdras and Freud has become their
philosopher. In the jungle the jackal has become king, that's all. What is the
knowledge there? The whole western world is going on for industry, for making
money, eating, be merry, wine and women, that's all. They are all less than śūdras and
caṇḍāla. This is the first time the attempt is being made to make them human beings.
Don't mind that I am using very strong words, that is a fact. They are animals, four
legged animals — two legs and two hands. Yes, rejected men. Vedic civilization
rejects them as mlecchas and yavanas but they can be reformed. The process is here.
Not that because they have been rejected they cannot be reclaimed. They can be
reclaimed also, just like you have been also. Although you have come from the
mlecchas and yavanas, by training you are becoming more than brāhmaṇas. There is no
bar for them. Unfortunately, these rascals do not agree to accept. As soon as you say,
"No more illicit sex," they become angry. As soon as you say, “no meat eating,” they
become angry. Rascals and fools. As soon as you give them good lessons, education,
they become angry. The snake, if you give him nice milk and banana, the result is that
he will increase his poison. By Kṛṣṇa’s grace, by Lord Caitanya Mahāprabhu 's grace,
they are being trained up. You become trained up and revise the whole religion of the
western civilization, especially in America. Then a new chapter will come in. This is
the program. Therefore varṇāśrama school is required,
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Srila Prabhupāda, in the varṇāśrama-dharma college is it true
that there will be no need for teaching, for example, material history and mathematics
and so on?
Srila Prabhupāda: No, there is no need. For history, you simply read Mahābhārata, the
history of the great men, the Pāṇḍavas, how they are fighting for the good cause, how
they are reigning — that history. Not this rascal history. If you study history for
millions of years... What is this history and what shall you learn from this history?
Better to learn history of the really great men — how they worked, how they ruled.
That is history. Study the history of Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira, study the history of
Mahārāja Parīkṣit. That is required. Not that simply chronological record of all
nonsense, big big books... Why should you waste your time in that way? History must
be for great persons.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So in our varṇāśrama college, Srila Prabhupāda, the students
that come to our college, they will follow the four regulative principles?
Srila Prabhupāda: The four principles are essential. But only the śūdras or the kṣatriyas
... Just like kṣatriya, they must learn how to kill. So, practically they should go to the
forest and kill some animal, and if he likes he can eat also. But not from the
slaughterhouse. Those who are kṣatriyas, they are allowed sometimes to eat meat. It is
understood that Bhīma was also sometimes eating meat. Not all the Pāṇḍavas, only
Bhīma, not others. So for kṣatriyas, if they want to eat meat, they can be allowed on
particular occasions. But they must go to the forest and kill the animal. Not that for
meat eating regular slaughterhouses should be maintained. This is all nonsense,
degradation. If you want to eat meat, you go to the forest. And the śūdras, they also
sometimes eat meat, or the caṇḍālas.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: But never the cow.
Srila Prabhupāda: No! Not the cow. The śūdras, they can take a goat and sacrifice it
before the Deity of the goddess Kali and then they can eat. No one should be given
unrestricted freedom to eat meat or wine. If one is adamant to drink wine there is Durga
puja, Candi puja. That means restriction. Under certain conditions. Similarly sex life
in marriage. There is also sex life but it is under condition.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: Is this school for women also, or is it just for men?
Srila Prabhupāda: For men. Women should automatically learn how to cook, how to
clean the home.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: They don't attend the varṇāśrama college?
Srila Prabhupāda: No. Varṇāśrama college is especially meant for the brāhmaṇa,
kṣatriya, vaiśya. Those who are not fit for education, they are śūdras that's all. Or those
who are reluctant to take education are śūdras. They should assist the higher classes.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Would the brāhmaṇas learn Sanskrit?
Srila Prabhupāda: Not necessary. Just like I am translating all these books, so similarly
any book of knowledge can be translated into different languages. Not that one has to
learn Sanskrit.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So in varṇāśrama college, this varṇāśrama-dharma college,
there are the two divisions varṇa and āśrama.
Srila Prabhupāda: First of all varṇa and when the varṇa is perfectly in order, then there
is āśrama. Āśrama is especially meant for spiritual advancement. Varṇa is general
division. It must be there in human society. If varṇa is not there then this is a society of
animals. And when the varṇa is working perfectly, then we give them the āśrama.
Varṇa-āśrama, that is later on.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: First they should be taught a skill.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, first of all the whole society should be divided into four varṇas.
Otherwise there will be chaotic conditions. That is the position now. What is he? What
he has to do? One does not know and there is so much unemployment. If you organize
the society into varṇas there will be no question of unemployment.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: But from the beginning there is to be taught Bhagavad-gītā
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Our position is that we are above varṇāśrama. But for the
management of the ideal society we are introducing this. But as far as we are
concerned, Kṛṣṇa conscious men, we are above varṇa-āśrama. To show the people that
we are not escaping we can take part in any order of life. That is our position. Just like
if I brush somebody's shoes, that does not mean that I am shoemaker. My position is
the same, but to show how to do it... Just like the servant is doing and the master is
saying, "Oh, you cannot do it, just see." Just like I show you how to mop. I am not a
mopper, but I show you how to mop. So our position is like that. We do not belong to
any varṇa or āśrama but we have to show this rascal. Just like Dhruva Mahārāja, he is
perfect Vaiṣṇava, but when he was king he was fighting like anything. When the enemy
attacked his kingdom he was killing them like anything and the enemy's king came and
asked him to pardon them and he immediately accepted. And the king wanted to give
him some benediction that, "He was so great that simply on my request he will stop
killing me." But he said, "That's all right, thank you. You give me the benediction that
I become a pure lover of Kṛṣṇa." That's all the benediction he asked. He was so
powerful and the enemy could have given him the whole wealth of the universe but he
remained, "Thank you very much. You give me the benediction that I remain a pure
devotee of Kṛṣṇa." This is Vaiṣṇava. He is doing everything but his aim is to please
Kṛṣṇa. Similarly, even if we take to varṇa-āśrama. Similarly, if we act in varṇa-āśrama,
still we have nothing to do with varṇa-āśrama.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Could you explain about the training of a brāhmaṇa?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, he must be truthful. He must have control of the senses and of
the mind. He must be tolerant and not be agitated in trifle matters. He must always be
clean. He must take bath at least three times a day. All the clothing, everything is
clean. This is brahminical training. And then he must know what is what, what is
knowledge and practical application. And he must have firm faith in Kṛṣṇa. This is
brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So what kind of practical work can we engage them in?
Srila Prabhupāda: They will all be teachers. Just like Droṇācārya. He was brāhmaṇa,
but he was teaching military art to the Pāṇḍavas. The general teacher class will be the
brāhmaṇas. It does not matter what he is teaching but that what he is teaching he is
perfectly teaching. How to become a military man. Arjuna's fighting was due to
Droṇācārya who was a brāhmaṇa. Because he took the position of a teacher, he taught
very perfectly. So brāhmaṇa should be expert in every kind of knowledge. If he
requires, he will become teacher. This is brāhmaṇa.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So brāhmaṇa can teach how to fight?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Brāhmaṇa means intelligent brain. Through an intelligent brain
one can learn anything and teach anything.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: Srila Prabhupāda, this is all very new. It seems that there will be
many difficulties if we try to start this.
Srila Prabhupāda: What is difficulty? If I teach you how to cook, is there any difficulty?
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: No.
Srila Prabhupāda: And similarly like that I am doing that. I am teaching how to mop
the floor.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: It becomes easy.
Srila Prabhupāda: I must know everything because I am a teacher.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So for example, if I become a teacher, a first teacher in
varṇāśrama dharma colleges, then I must become expert in how to fight and to...
Srila Prabhupāda: Not all of you, but some of you must learn the art of fighting.
Practically speaking, we are not going to fight. If required we can fight. I said that we
are above all this varṇa-āśrama dharma but we must train others, ourselves also, for
material activities under these divisions.
Viṣṇujana Swami: For example, in New Vṛndāvana we have brāhmaṇas who are expert
in tilling the soil and taking care of cows and they could travel around and teach others
how to do the same thing just as well.
Srila Prabhupāda: He is brāhmaṇa but he is teaching others how to take care of the cow
and till the ground.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: It is not that one teacher has to teach everything then.
Srila Prabhupāda: No.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Oh, I see. So a brāhmaṇa teacher should become expert in a
particular subject and simply teach that.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: It is very exciting Srila Prabhupāda.
Srila Prabhupāda: The thing is actually at the present moment there are śūdras or less
than śūdras. They are not human beings. The whole population of the world it doesn't
matter whether it is western or eastern. This is the position. So unless they are trained
up, the society is already in chaos and it will still go on. More and more chaos. It will
be hell. How will people live? These rascals are being elected as government men and
they are making a budget, how to tax. On one side there is no rain, one side no rice,
especially, in India, and on one side heavy tax. So they will all become confused. They
have already become confused. From this confused state it will be very difficult to
make them Kṛṣṇa conscious. Therefore preliminary help should be given, that they
should not be in chaos and confusion because how will the brain work?
Viṣṇujana Swami: No one can give rapt attention without peace of mind
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Our main aim is how to give them Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if
they are already disturbed in every respect, how will they take it? Therefore we are
taking this subject to help them to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And this is the method
— varṇāśrama.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Just to clarify it, Srila Prabhupāda, I want to make sure I have it
very clear. If someone comes to our varṇāśrama college, although it may be
preliminary help, in general, you have made some exceptions, but in general when they
come to our college they have to follow the four regulative principles and also learn
something about Bhagavad-gītā. And side by side they learn some particular type of
skill.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Four regulative principles, they are compulsory. But if some of
the kṣatriyas or the śūdras want to eat meat, this is our prescription — go to the forest,
kill some animals and eat them. You can kill one boar; some disturbing animals you can
kill. You can kill some tiger, like that. No non-violence. (NOTE: Srila Prabhupāda
goes on for another minute to say how the kṣatriyas when authorized by the government
will arrest and punish thieves and rogues.)
Devotee: How will the kṣatriyas kill the animals? With guns or bows and arrows?
Srila Prabhupāda: However it is suitable. It is not that because the kṣatriyas were killing
with bows and arrows formerly that you should continue like that. This is another
foolishness. If you can kill easily by gun take that gun. Just like formerly Caitanya
Mahāprabhu walked on the street. There was no airplane. He did not use it. Does it
mean that I should have to follow that? Take the jet we need if it is available.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Jai!
Srila Prabhupāda: Someone criticizes that Caitanya Mahāprabhu walked on land, did not
use jet planes. Does that mean I have to accept that idea? They are rascals. When you
have to work, you have to work with the greatest facility, that's all. Now I've got the
facility of talking into the microphone, so why should I not take it? It will be recorded.
It will be heard by so many others. I can be speaking before five men but it can be
heard by a big crowd, four hundred men.
Viṣṇujana Swami: So, Srila Prabhupāda, this means that we should perpetuate this
technical skill?
Srila Prabhupāda: No. We are not going to. But if somebody is interested in doing it,
then we will take it and make the best use of it. Just like we do not want money, but
they are having money by so many different ways. So we take their money and
construct a temple. We can sit down here and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa, We don't require a
temple. But these rascals, they are accumulating money for wine and women. Take
their money somehow or other and build a temple and then invite them to come and see.
Give them prasādam. This is our position. We are not constructing big, big temples for
our convenience but for their convenience. This is sannyāsi.
Viṣṇujana Swami: There should always be program for their welfare. Not that we just
live there.
Srila Prabhupāda: No. But we are taking it, “Now we have got very nice house, let us
sleep and eat."
Viṣṇujana Swami: Then there would be wide criticism.
Srila Prabhupāda: That is not good. We should remain always sannyāsi within.
Outwardly, for others convenience we may do something. Similarly, we are accepting
this varṇāśrama. We are not varṇāśrama. We are above varṇa-āśrama. But to give
others the facility to come to the stage of Kṛṣṇa consciousness this program must be
done.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Generally in the west the colleges charge some fee for going to
college. What is our position?
Srila Prabhupāda: No. We won't charge any fee. There is no question of money
because the brāhmaṇas, they will teach free. These colleges charge money because they
have to give that salary to these rascals. We haven't got to. And even if we have to feed
them, we produce our own grain. So what is the question of taking money? Therefore
it is required — somebody must produce food and then there will be no necessity for
money.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: The vaiśya students will produce the food.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: Our children at Gurukula, when they grow up, should they go to
varṇāśrama college?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, they should go. Varṇāśrama college means for grown up
students.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: Is there a minimum age for beginning such a policy?
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. Ten to twelve years. From five to ten years — Gurukula. And
after ten years they should go to the varṇāśrama college.
Viṣṇujana Swami: New Vṛndāvana would be an ideal place in America for such a
school.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Organize that. I shall go.
Viṣṇujana Swami: (Pointing to Paramhaṁsa Swami) This Mahārāja is going there.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. Do that. You and Kīrtanānanda Mahārāja combine together
and do that. We have got so many duties to do, don't waste time. Not a single moment
Don't eat more and don't sleep more. Then you'll be able to work.
Viṣṇujana Swami: This is the most auspicious work for now, this remedial measure to
stop the chaos in the world right now.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, most auspicious. If the people are in chaos, how will they be
able to accept the great philosophy? It requires a cool brain.
Viṣṇujana Swami: My program now is that I have ten brahmacārīs and buses and
everything and we're distributing books. But if the people are in chaos, how will they
be able to accept the knowledge in the books?
Srila Prabhupāda: No, not all of them are in chaos. There are some of them. Only some
of them, not all of them.
(Man walks by and exclaims "Rādhe, Rādhe.")
Srila Prabhupāda: Just see. Due to past training even an ordinary man is chanting,
"Radhe, Radhe." This is India, because due to past culture even the lowest class of men
are greater philosophers than those rascals in western countries.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: All the other programs should be continued and this program
Added.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes.
Devotee: The persons who took part in this program would have to be devotees,
wouldn't they?
Srila Prabhupāda: I have already explained, we are all devotees. First condition — we
are all devotees. You do not belong to this varṇāśrama. I have already told you.
Suppose I am mopping. That does not mean that I am mopper. But I am teaching how
to mop. This is our position.
Devotee: So the students, they must all be devotees.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Everybody is devotee. That is our life and soul.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: The idea is that after they finish schooling they will take part in
ISKCON preaching, either as vaiśya or in some way.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, this preaching is also required. To make the ground work...
because nobody is taking care. Just like some of the great devotees, they took the
profession of becoming thief. A devotee is a thief? But they took because no one was
giving. So they organized this plundering party and they plundered all these big men,
just like the politicians do. That is history, yes. So even up to the point of becoming a
thief, devotee takes it. The gopīs, even up to the point of becoming prostitute for Kṛṣṇa.
So for Kṛṣṇa's sake we have to accept any nonsense type of business or the highest
grade or anything. For Kṛṣṇa we have to do that.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So, Srila Prabhupāda, in our temples we have so many
devotees...
Srila Prabhupāda: They should be engaged.
Hṛdayānanda Swami: Should they be trained in a particular...
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, those who are not able to preach or to do other things, they must
go to the plow department, agriculture. Those who are less educated, not very much
expert in preaching, they must be acting as kṣatriya or vaiśya or as śūdra. Always
remember like that, but he has to act to fill up the gap. Proxy.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So we should encourage young people, young students to come
to our college?
Srila Prabhupāda: They'll automatically come if you are ideal because they are being
forced to poverty. When there is a question of poverty they will come.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: Room, board, training...
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. This is poverty, why is there poverty? Because they are not
producing food. Everyone wants so-called comfortable life, so-called education, sitting
idle in the table and chair and talking all gossips and nonsense and sleeping. They are
being trained up in this way — śūdra.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: So they should be trained to rise early.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, if you keep healthy then you will naturally rise early. But
because you have lost all stamina therefore sleeping is your only business. Sleeping
means for the weak. And for the strong, perspiration. This is the sign. When a man
sleeps too much he is weak in his health. And a strong man, he will perspire. Human
being means trained up under principle. That is the difference between humans and
animals. The animals, they cannot take up any training. The human being, this human
form of body, is meant for taking training. If they are not properly trained up then they
will remain animals. And the whole society is in chaos and confusion, that's all. At this
moment, the human society is so degraded even though we are working. This is all so
risky. Gradually it is becoming like our New York or Brooklyn. It is difficult to walk
due to some criminals. They immediately say, "What have you got? Give me." There
are so many incidences. In such a city as New York there is always danger like that. If
somebody kills you, no one will take care of you. The human society has become so
degraded. And in India still they are not so degraded. Even at night you can safely
walk on the street. In America and Europe you cannot walk alone with confidence in
the big, big streets. The human being has become so degraded. Less than animal. They
can attack you just like in the forest. In the forest they can attack you any time and the
big cities have become like that. They have started the United Nations but what have
they done actually? Have they done anything progressive?
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: No.
Srila Prabhupāda: Big, big advertisement, "United Nations". All the cats and dogs
united, what they can do? If all the world's cats and dogs meet together to make a
formula, will they be able to? So actually this is the proof. They are all cats and dogs.
What do they know? How to unite? How to live in peace? They do not know because
they are all animals. Cats and dogs. This is the proof. Just study this institution. What
have they done? Am I right or wrong?
All Devotees: Right!
Viṣṇujana Swami: Thirty years now.
Srila Prabhupāda: Thirty years they are struggling for United Nations. Big, big
expenditure, so many humbug programs and no result. Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "I am
thinking only for these rascals. They are making humbug program but mere is no action
—just for temporary so called happiness without God consciousness. I am simply
thinking of them. Otherwise, personally I have no problem." This was spoken by
Prahlāda Mahārāja to Nṛsiṁhadeva. We can chant anywhere. Kṛṣṇa will provide
everything. We have no business to do but we have to take them because we are
sympathizers. So many people are being killed by this modem civilization. They have
the opportunity to become Kṛṣṇa conscious, but by the setup of this rascal civilization
they are being killed spiritually. Therefore we have to take them. Devotee personally,
he has no problem. But he pushes himself in this degraded society to teach them how to
live, how to become gentlemen. He has no other business. But if you don't give mem
the opportunity then they will not be able to come to Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It will be
good for you because Kṛṣṇa will see, "Ah, here is My devotee. He is doing so much for
Me." Your service will be recognized by Kṛṣṇa. Don't think that because you are
teaching a śūdra how to work like this, you have become a śūdra. You are not śūdra in
any circumstances, although you teach a śūdra how to work like a śūdra. Understand,
don't misunderstand. Clearly understand what is the purpose. Is that all right? Is it
clear?
All Devotees: Yes.
Viṣṇujana Swami: One good example is New Vṛndāvana. They are actually doing that.
They are training kṣatriyas and vaiśyas.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, that was in the beginning. I started the New Vṛndāvana scheme
on this formula.
Viṣṇujana Swami: Kirtanananda Swami has carried it out just as you desired.
Paramhaṁsa Swami: So in a sense New Vṛndāvana is already...
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, the starting is already there.
Viṣṇujana Swami: They have a court system in New Vṛndāvana. They started it when I
was there last time. They have so many members and sometimes somebody may
commit some offense or something. They even have a judicial type system where the
offender comes before the board of older members.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. All fights should be decided by the board, Yes, that's nice and
it will be accepted even by the court. In India there is a system where there is a board of
five to ten men in the village. If there is a fight between two parties, whatever the board
decides, that will be accepted in the court (Srila Prabhupāda pauses) There will be no
scarcity. We will engage some of them in producing food. So where is the question of
scarcity. There is food. There is milk. Eat and drink and be human being.
Hṛdayānanda Goswāmī: When we first go to open a temple in a city we first get an
apartment or a store front But as more and more people come we should get land and
cows, everything, and turn it into a society.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, yes, yes.
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: Many times our devotees get cheated in business deals, etc., due
to lack of experience. So should our devotees learn...
Srila Prabhupāda: What? How to cheat others?
Satsvarūpa Goswāmī: No, no. Not how to cheat, but to learn from experienced devotees
how not to be cheated by others.
Srila Prabhupāda: Why should you go to a person who cheats?
DAY FOUR
Srila Prabhupāda: (Quotes from Padma Purāṇa). We'll teach the military art and
soldiers with tilaka will march: Hare Kṛṣṇa Hare Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa Hare Hare / Hare
Rāma Hare Rāma Rāma Rāma Hare Hare. (All disciples laugh.) We want that they
should be marching with military band. Hare Kṛṣṇa! We will maintain this idea, is it
not good? (NOTE: Srila Prabhupāda goes on for another minute to say how the Kṛṣṇa
conscious kṣatriyas when authorized by the government will protect the society from
demons.) What do you think, Madhuvisa Mahārāja, is that all right?
Madhuvisa Mahārāja: Yes, that's all right
Srila Prabhupāda: What these communists can do, we can do better than them. This will
be the counteraction of the communist movement Think like that. "Why are you
sitting idly, no employment? Here, take this plow. Take this bull. Go out working.
Why are you sitting idle? This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Nobody will be allowed to sit
down and sleep. We must find out some employment. Either work as a brāhmaṇa,
vaisya, kṣatriya. Why should there be unemployment? For example, just like this body
is working — hand is working, leg is working, brain is working, belly is working. Why
should there be unemployment? Just stop this unemployment and you will see; the
whole world will be peaceful. There is no complaint. They will very happily chant
Hare Kṛṣṇa. Why no one is working in this field? They are all drawn to the cities to
work in the factories. Condemned civilization. That communist emblem, what is that?
Devotee: Hammer and sickle.
Srila Prabhupāda: That is good. But no hammer, only this sickle. No hammer. That
will be our emblem, only sickle — no hammer. The hammer has hammered the whole
human civilization. So just make a counter emblem. The communists will appreciate.
Devotee: Sickle and tilaka.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes! That is a good idea! (Devotees laugh.) Rascal civilization and
rascal government and the people are all transferred into rascals. Without grain how can
they live? There is no management or arrangement for grain. They are simply passing
resolutions, legislative laws and no grain. See what kind of wretched government this
is. Everywhere there is no grain. The first duty of the government is to see that
everyone is happy, without any anxiety. There must be sufficient arrangement for these
preliminary necessities of life. One must eat sumptuously, not overeating, but he must
have sufficient foods to keep up the health. Similarly, he must have a place to sleep.
We are prepared to offer everything and we give Kṛṣṇa consciousness. This is our
mission. Not by eating and sleeping we become rogues, thieves and rascals. That we
will not allow. Why unemployment? There is no scarcity of water. Just have a big
well. Electricity to pump water, immediately it will be green. All around for the benefit
of human society. We'll be honored everywhere, in every part of the world. And
automatically all this bogus avatars, incarnations of God, yogis, swamijis, will all be
doomed. This rascal society avatar, Bhagavan incarnation, yogi... these rascals should
be doomed.
Indian Devotee: Their life activity will be finished. They cannot remain.
Srila Prabhupāda: Prahlāda Mahārāja said, "How these rascals have made a plan for the
happiness of a few men?" Gorgeous plan. Happiness of the government man, that's all.
You know in Delhi there is a planning commission. What is their plan? That people
may starve and Indira Gandhi & Company may flourish, that's all.
Indian Devotee: Mahārāja, they are going to the office at twelve and coming back at one
and doing nothing.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes, and what have they got to do? Just like we've seen in London:
the parliament when they had some so-called empire. Now the parliament is useless.
The members, the House of Lords, the House of Commons, they are all useless now.
They've got some old books only in the parliament. Some old books. Old books means
that all these speeches are recorded, who's going to read them? (Everyone laughs.) So
many. I've seen in parliament hundreds and thousands of speeches recorded and bound
up very nicely. But who's going to read them? Simply a waste of time. This example
is given, as working like the ass for nothing, not for himself, and he'll be given a little
bit of grass. The grass is available here, but still he is envious. The ass will eat a little
bit of grass. The grass is available everywhere, but still he will work for others, loading
and over-loading. This is ass. He has no sense that "I have taken so much overload. I
can get grass anywhere and remain free." He has no such sense. Neither he will be
allowed. This is ass. There are many babajis collecting chapatis and smoking bidis and
having one or two women. All this is going on. We can tell them, "Come on, chant
Hare Kṛṣṇa and take the plow." Not that he will become Rūpa Goswāmī. Simply by
smoking they are thinking they will become Rūpa Goswāmī. They are thinking that by
simply changing the loin cloth they will become Rūpa Goswāmī and whatever nonsense
they like they can do. We can tell all these babajis they should be employed, chant Hare
Kṛṣṇa and draw a plow. Then it will be nice.
Jayādvaita: In America too. The big intellectuals and professors, we can have plows for
them.
Srila Prabhupāda: Yes. They are wasting time. It is better if they produce some food.
"At least your food. You are living at the cost of others. What is the value of your
philosophy?" In Bhagavad-gītā it is said to search out the Absolute Truth, that is jñāna,
knowledge, philosophy. Anything else that is ajñāna. If you cannot use your plot of
land then it will go to the government. Similarly, if the government cannot utilize it, it
will come to us. We shall work it. Is that not good?
Indian Devotee: Yes, that is very good.
Srila Prabhupāda: There must be some law like that. The government has taken from
the public because it is not being worked on. Now we shall work on it "Give us this
land. You have taken from the public; why should you not give it to us?" So there will
be no question. Even if the government does not give, we shall occupy and go on
tilling. What the government will do? The public will support us.
Indian Devotee: Again it is being distributed to their relations, those who are in power
and then they will not work it.
Srila Prabhupāda: Whenever a field is not being worked we shall occupy them and
begin to work. We shall invite all the unemployed, "Come and join us. We shall give
you food and shelter, everything. Lord Kṛṣṇa is setting the example. Kṛṣṇa has said that
He has already arranged the result of this fighting. Everyone will be killed. But still He
is inducing Arjuna to work. Not that He is addressing Arjuna, "I am your Friend,
Kṛṣṇa. Everything will be done." Everything will be done but you have to work. Not
that, "Because I am Friend, I will do and you will sleep and get dysentery." No. You
have to work. Everything is already arranged but you must work. That is wanted.
Otherwise why was Arjuna induced to fight? Kṛṣṇa has already arranged. Arjuna said,
"Yes, whatever You say." This is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. Our politician, Balavanta, he is
not here? Let him preach that "If you take our Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement there
will be no unemployment." He can at least give this manifesto: "Here will be no more
unemployment." People will be very glad to hear. Now this machine nonsense means
unemployment. One machine shall work for a hundred men. The hundred men become
unemployed and one technician, he gets all the salaries. To work on the computer
machine the technician who is very expert will take $3000.00 and the others will be
unemployed. And they are thinking "advancement of civilization." Advancement of
civilization means to exploit others and you become happy? This is advancement of
civilization? Others may die of starvation and one man takes all the money and spends
it for wine and women and motor car, that's all. This is advancement of civilization?
"Let everyone be happy." This is Vedic civilization. And the demoniac civilization is,
"Let everyone suffer and I become happy." That's all. And Vaiṣṇava is thinking, "For
my salvation, it is all guaranteed." But he is thinking, "How these poor people can be
saved?" This is Vaiṣṇava situation. He is unhappy by seeing others unhappy. For
himself he has no unhappiness. This is Vaiṣṇava philosophy. Vaiṣṇava shall work
hard, undergo all tribulation for others. Vaiṣṇava has no problem because he has taken
shelter of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa has given guarantee. "Anyone who has taken shelter of Me, he
is saved. I will give him protection." Everything is there. For Vaiṣṇava there is no
suffering personally but he is very much anxious how these rascals will be happy. That
is his business. "The rascals are misled. They are going astray. They are unhappy.
How they can be happy?" This is Vaishnava’s business. Vaiṣṇavas, therefore, shall have
no politics. Politics means planning for one's own happiness. That is politics. So in
our society there should be no diplomacy, no politics. Everyone should be eager how to
do good for others. That is Vaiṣṇava. This planning that "I shall be leader. I shall be
doing something," this is not Vaiṣṇava. That politics is not good.
Devotee: The thing is that people are so much attached to sense gratification that if we
told them we wanted to stop all these facilities for women, drinking, cinema, etc., there
will be much anger.
Srila Prabhupāda: That is natural. If you give good instruction to a rascal he shall
become angry. But if you give him practical, "Here, come here. Sit down. Take
prasādam. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. Then help me by doing this," In this way you have to
do, just like a child. A child does not want to go to school. Find out some means so
that he is induced. That is intelligence. If he becomes angry, that is natural. He is a
rascal. That is not unnatural. Just like a snake. If you feed the snake with milk, that
will increase the poison. Practically apply. This Hare Kṛṣṇa movement will practically
attract the people. If the world affairs are adjusted according to our Kṛṣṇa conscious
plan there will be no difficulty for all the nations. All the countries, they will be happy.
So we must educate people gradually and by our living example we'll attract them.
(Srila Prabhupāda walks by some Vṛndāvana residents and says, "Hare Kṛṣṇa" and they
all respond, "Hare Kṛṣṇa.") At least they are remembering just by seeing us. See what
benefit has been done? If one is actually Vaiṣṇava, then by seeing him one will chant
Hare Kṛṣṇa. This has been created all over the world. Wherever we go they chant
"Hare Kṛṣṇa". Even at midnight in Athens. This is the definition given by Caitanya
Mahāprabhu.
Devotee: If Kṛṣṇa has already done all the work at Kurukṣetra, then why is He so eager
to have Arjuna work?
Srila Prabhupāda: Just to set example that "Don't just sit idly, rascal, work!" Kṛṣṇa has
already done but you must work. This is why.
Devotee: People can argue that if one can make an arrangement to remain idle, that is
nice.
Srila Prabhupāda: If you remain idle you will have disease, you will have dysentery,
that's all. (Devotees laugh. Srila Prabhupāda laughs.) That will not help you. You will
have to suffer. That state has already come because so many rascals are idle. So you
suffer. If you don't work then you suffer.