Transcript of Biden Interview With Special Counsel Robert Hur

I DRAFT
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s3
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55
.6 RECORDED INTERVIEW
RECORDED INTERVIEN BETWEEN
BETWEEN
7||
7 semorar
SPECIAL counssr nomERT HUR
COUNSEL ROBERT HUR (SCO),
(SCO), DEPUTY
DEPUTY SPECIAL
SPECIAL COUNSEL
COUNSEL
8 of KRICKBAUM (sco),
MARCsackman
ware sstsmave SPECIAL
(SCO), ASSISTANT covwse:, -[EE
seecrar COUNSEL
: 95 (SCO), SUPERVISORY
(SCO), SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT
SPECIAL AGENT '
DOJ een),,
(FBI)
2010 sezer.
SPECIAL acer|
AGENT or EDWARD
(FBI), Some SISKELssi (WHC),
(Ho),
n11 RICHARD
RICHARD SAUBER. (WHC), RACHEL
SAUBER (WHC), RACHEL COTTON
COTTON (WHC),
(WHC),
. 1212 ROBERT BAUER (PC),
ROBERT BAUER LAURMAN (PC)
DAVID LAUFMAN
(PC), DAVID (£C)
113 and
and PRESIDENT JOSEPH R.R. BIDEN,
PRESIDENT JOSEPH BIDEN, JR.JR.
| 114
1515
116
17
118 Piles:
Files: 2310081215,
231008_1215, 23108_1324, 231008 1216
231081324, 231008_1216
119 Date of Interviews
Date of Interview: October 8,8, 2023
October 2023
220
221
222
223
224
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Reporting Transcription
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11 RECORDING
R E C O R D I N G
22 | >>
sa § The date 2023.
October 8,8, 2023.
date isis October The
2 cine socpprominates12:05 pum.ncthts55snsncervion
SA The The
|| inseesscuns oseonsien.
3 time is approximately 12:15 p.m. And this is an interview
4 with President Joseph Biden.
55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Thank you, Ea Good morning
morning
| verso. sz. president,thankyouforyourtine.
Thank you,-· Good
everybody. Mr. President, thank you for your time.
7||setuatay,ses tocnmicanty attessoon. Gandattesmoon.

6
. Shankyouverymichfoxbeingheresweappreciate
7 Actually, it's technically afternoon. Good afternoon.
||soustineverymich. xthine, susefoxctasieyo¢ene

8 Thank you very much for being here; we appreciate
co sesers,2 hoiaveryso aroundandsake +soreot

9 your time very much. I think, just for clarity of the
record, I should quickly go around and make a note of
12]avasyoneshoreboro. Timnhso, thespecialcounsel,

10
11 everyone who's here. I'm Rob Hur, the special counsel,
12||
12 Joined
joined by
by Hare
Marc Keickbaun
Krickbaum and [IEEE
and DOJ +iso with
, also with thethe '
y 13
13 Special
Special Counsel's
Counsel's Office.
Office. And we're
And we're joined
joined by
by two
two FBI
FBI
14 agents, and
»
15 omen lyme SN President Biden, obviously, you're here. Thank
16|youverymach. touteSoinas by sb ofthe iteHouse

16 you very much. You're joined by members of the White House
17|cosetsseams ntsHousecovmsed24Siskel, icksaber

17 Counsel's team: White House Counsel Ed Siske!, Dick Sauber
16|antsachetcotton, andsiaoyoustuopessenalconse,5b
18 and Rachel Cotton, and also your two personal counsel, Bob
15 |severandDaviatovesan. Have misseaanybodywo£0not

19 Bauer and David Laufman. Have I missed anybody who is not
20 sented
20 acshocanter
seated at the table?
x
21 SE UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No.
2
22 R.A igh, cond. Well,then,withthats
MR. HUR: All right, good. Well, then, with that,
23
23 II have
have some
some preliminary
preliminary matters
matters to
to go
go over
over briefly,
briefly, but
but
24
24 before
before II do
do that,
that, do you
do you all
all have
have anything
anything else you'd like
else you'd like
25|co cayvasorese sumpine
25 to say before .
we jum~ in? •·
Ln Ty
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2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAK~R: No.
3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No.
4 MR. HUR: Okay. All right. Well, Mr. President,
55 II do
do want
want to
to take
take an
an additional
additional minute and
minute and thank
thank you
you for
for
6 being here and making this time for us. I know there's a
7|7 lot
lot of
of other
other things
things in the world
in the world going
going on
on that
that demand
demand your
your
8 attention.
9 PRESIDENT EIDEN: We may be interrupted by one.
10 MR. HUR: Understood. Understood.
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't -- I hope not.
12 MR. HUR: We hope not too.
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I just got off the phone with
14 Bibi Netanyahu.
! 3
15 MR.
MR. HOUR:
HUR: Yes, sir.
Yes, sir. So II also
So also wanted
wanted toto say
say that
that
16 we know that you have provided significant cooperation with
17 our investigation, and I wanted to personally recognize that
18 and thank you for it.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The FBI knows my house better
20 than I do.
21 (Laughter)
22 MR. HUR: I'm not sure about that, sir.
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm pretty sure.
24 MR. HUR: I hope it's been obvious during the
25 months that we've been at work that my goals have been to

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2 MR. HUR: -- do a thorough and professional job,
3 but also to do it as swiftly as possible. And your
4 cooperation has been very helpful in us trying to achieve
5 all of those goals, especially the efficiency of our, of our
6 investigation.
77 On
On the
the topic of cooperation,
topic of cooperation, you
you know,
know, asas federal
federal
8 prosecutors, we do assess cooperation at the end of an
9 investigation. Obviously, your willingness to sit for this
10 interview today and tomorrow and answer our questions is
11 part of that cooperation. It's obviously very important to
12 answer our questions truthfully. And we appreciate very
13
13 much
much your
your willingness,
willingness, and we hope
and hope that
that you
you will
will be
be able
able toto
14 -- that you'll put forth your best efforts and really try to
15 get your best recollection in response to the questions we
16 ask, because I acknowledge that some of the questions we are
17 asking relate to events that happened years ago.
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm a young man, so it's not a
19 problem.
20 (Laughter)
21 MR. HUR: Okay, great. Glad to hear it.
22 A couple of other ministerial notes. I may ask a
23 question that is unclear or badly phrased. I sometimes do
: 24
24 that;
that; II often
often do
do that.
that. If
If II ever
ever ask
ask aa question
question that
that you
you
on
25
25 don't quite
don't quite understand,
understand, you
you don't
don't --
we you
you need
need clarification,
clarification,
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31 [0:03: 32.5]
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2 MR. HUR: then you should.say, I don't
3 understand what you're saying. You should ask me to try to
4 clarify it and I'll take another crack at it.
5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay.
6 MR. HUR: And then should you ever want to take a
7 break today or tomorrow
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: By the way, there's a restroom
9 right behind us.
10 MR. HUR: Oh, thank you.
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: For the rest of you as well.
12 MR. HUR: Good to know. Thank you.
13 Should you ever want to take a break during the
14 interview, including to confer with members of the White
15||
15 Counsel'sl's office
House Counse
House or your
office or personal counsel,
your personal counsel, all got
you got
all you
16
16 to do is
to do is just
just let
let us know that
us know and we'll
that and break.
take aa break.
we'll take
18 MR. HUR: All right.
19 MR. BAUER: Rob?
20 MR. HUR: Yes.
21 MR. BAUER: On the question of clarity, the
22 question -- we don't want to interrupt the flow.
23 MR. HUR: Um-hmm.
24 MR. BAUER: Of course, if Ed or I have any
25 uncertainty about what you're asking --
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2 MR. HUR: Sure.
3 MR. BAUER: we may also ask for clarity about
4 the question.
! B5 MR. would be
HUR: II would
MR. HUR: you did
surprised ifif you
be surprised not,
did not,
6 Bob.
77 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: I'm confident
I'm confident of
of that.
that.
8 MR. HUR: Okay. All right. Any other
9 preliminaries before we jump in? Okay.
10 Well, Mr. President, normally, we start these
11 kinds of interviews by asking the witness to tell us a
12 little bit about their background. You probably have had
13 your background documented as well or better than any other
14 person on the planet today, so we will not be asking you to
15 take us back to Scranton.
16
16 We
We will
will be
be asking
asking you to
you to take
take us
us back
back toto more
more
17 recently, back to the end of the Obama Administration, so
18 January of 2017. So if you could cast your mind back to
19 that time, you, at that point --
20 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Piece of paper?
21 MR. BAUER: Yes, of course. Here.
22 MR. HUR: You, at that point, were about to become
23 a private citizen for the first time in 40 years. That
24 would be the first time in four decades that you were not
25 going to be in government service. So could you just
Emm
be
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22 HUR: -- tell
MR. HUR:
MR. tell usus aa little about what
bit about
little bit you
what you
3||
3 were planning
were planning on
on doihg your time
with your
doing with citizen?
private citizen?
time asas aa private
4||
4 kind of
What kind
what of projects
projects and pursuits you
and pursuits you were about
thinking about
were thinking
5| 5 engaging in?
engaging And, aa note
in? And, note about question, II am
this question,
about this thinking
am thinking
6|6 about public,
about public, external-facing
external-facing pursuits opposed toto
pursuits asas opposed
! 7||
7 personal,
personal, family- oriented
family- oriented pursuits, ifif that
pursuits, narrow
helps narrow
that helps
8|
8 the
the category
category of
of things
things thatthat youyou can
can talktalk --—-
59 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: II was become aa
going toto become
was going
10||
10 professor
professor at
at the University ofof Pennsylvania,
the University Pennsylvania, and and II was
was
, 11||
11 working at
working the University
at the University of Delaware for
of Delaware for the School
Biden School
the Eiden
i 12||
12 on
on domestic
domestic policy.
policy.
1313 MR.
MR. HUR: Un-hmn.
HUR: Um-hmm.
1414 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: And And soso my
my objective
objective waswas toto stay
stay
15||
15 engaged
engaged in in public
public policy debate and
policy debate and teach.
teach.
! 1616 By
By the
the way,way, II taught
taught before,
before, when when II was
was aa senator,
senator,
! 17||
17 on
on saturdays
Saturdays for
for aa number
number ofof years.
years. II taught taught atat Delaware
Delaware
18||
18 Law school.
aw School. constitutional law
course onon constitutional
taught aa course
II taught law onon
15||
19 saturday
Saturday mornings.
mornings. So itit was
So was ---- II wanted
wanted toto continue
continue that
that
20||
20 kind
kind ofof work.
work.
2121 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Understood.
Understood. So with
So with respect
respect toto your
your
22||
22 professorship
professorship and
and thethe Penn
Penn Biden
Biden Center,
Center, how how much
much ofof your
your
23||
23 time
time did
did you
you anticipate
anticipate spending on
spending on that
that post-vice
post-vice
2424|| presidency?
presidency?
2525 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: All ALL ofof it.it.
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22 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: All it?
ALL ofof it?
33 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, mean, itit was
Yeah, II mean, job. How
was aa job. How
: 4|| 4 much tine
much time do do you expect toto spend
you expect your ---- I'm
spend onon your being
not being
I'm not
5|| 5 facetious.
facetious. II mean, wanted toto have
mean, II wanted have recreation other
recreation ---- other
6|6 things,
things, II don't
don't mean
mean that.that. But But this going toto bebe my
was going
this was job.
my job.
77 MR.
MR. HUR: HUR: And And how
how diddid your
your participation
participation inin thethe
8||
8 efforts
efforts of
of the
the Biden Institute factor
Biden Institute factor into
into that
that asas well?
well?
99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Well, Well, that
that was
was part
part ofof itit asas
10||
10 well,
well, Penn knew
and Penn
and knew thatthat II was with the
working with
was working Biden
the Biden
11||
11 Institute
Institute on
on domestic
domestic policy. And
policy. And the
the real
real advantage
advantage I I had had
12||
12 in
in thethe Penn
Penn job job was they gave
was they gave meme money
money toto hire
hire staff.
staff. SoSo I I
. 13||
13 was able
was able to to hirehire some
some first-rate like the
people like
first-rate people Secretary
the Secretary
! 14||
14 of
of state
State now.
now. He's
He's my my Secretary
Secretary ofof State.
State. HeHe was was working
working
15||
15 for
for me me at at the
the PennPenn Center,
Center, at the
at the Penn
Penn Biden
Biden Center.
Center. And And soso
16||
16 itit was,
was, you you know,
know, it it was
was about
about being
being engaged
engaged inin matters
matters that that
17||17 1I thought
thought were
were stillstill consequential. Domestic
consequential. Domestic policy
policy was was
16||
18 related
related mainly
mainly to matters having
to matters having toto dodo with
with thethe Judiciary
Judiciary
18||
19 committee
Committee and
and economic
economic policy. And
policy. And atat Penn,
Penn, itit waswas mainly
mainly
20
20 to
to on on foreign
foreign policy.
policy.
221 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: One One ofof the
the other
other things
things that
that wewe know
know
22||22 that
that you you spent
spent some
some -- -- aa significant
significant amountamount ofof time
time doing
doing
23||
23 after
after the
the endend of of your vice presidency
your vice presidency was was writing
writing aa book,
book,
24||
24 promise
Promise Me, Me, Dad. Dad. So when you
So when you were
were thinking
thinking about
about writing
writing
25||
25 that
that book
book at
at the end ~f
the end Of your
your vice
vice presiden~y,
presidendy, how
how much
much time
time
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1 2| wera.
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2 2 Mi. HOR: ---- diddid you

MR. HUR: anticipate that
you anticipate that would take ofof
would take
3 s| yours?
yours?
4 ‘ PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN. II didn'tdidn't anticipate. comldntt
anticipate. II couldn't
5 took nore
5]| =-- t+it vook more sine time than wrote. I© wrote
beck I1 wrote.
sirst book
sun theshe first wrote a=
6 best setter
¢| best seller sasty
early on, was onon thethe Best
on, itit was setters list.List. And
mest Seller's ans
7 7| then
then whatwhat 1I vented
wanted to to dodo was
vas write
write aa book
book about
about mymy son,
son,
8 o| mecause
because nehe was
was aa zenarkabie
remarkable men, and
man, and I1 wanted
wanted toto — mymy
9 5|| seantentraren
grandchildren an
and grest-graniensiaren
great-grandchildren ane family
and fantty toto
10]|10 ensasstomt
understand vie
who ne he was was andont have
nave some
some documentation
sommmensenson ofof it.fr. I 1
12]|11 wasn
wasn't writing
writing stit atat the tine thinking
the time thinking thatthat itit was
was going
going toto
12||
12 se12,
sell, you
you xnow,
know, it vas going
it was going toto bebe aa best
best seller,
seller, thatthat kind
kind
12]13 ofof shins.
thing.
wu14 3I vanes
wanted people gape towh know Wane what
WER a» normal
egesl --= thisWin isi% a8
15]|15 guy,
guy, you you know,
know, on on his his death
death bed
bed grabbed
grabbed mymy hand
hand andand said,
said,
16]|16 ane,
dad, 1m I'm not not strate,
afraid, don't --— promise
don't promise me,me, dad,
dag, promise
provise me,me.
17]|17 ant,
dad, yours
you'll stay
stay engaged,
engaged, pronise me.
promise me. Because
Because hehe knew
Knew howhow
38|
18 much
much 2I soredadored him, him, and an hene wasvas worried
worsted I'd10 sortsore ofof warn say
walk away
15|
19 xem
from everyening
everything Iva always worked
I'd always worked on.on. So50 II wanted
wanted people
pecels toto
2020 | swe
know vieswhat nat kind v2 of man som he0 was.wes.
n21 MR
MR. HOR:
HUR: And And we're
ve'ze going
going toto bebe talking
talking about
about
22||22 peamise
Promise te, Me, Dad Dad more further on,on, and
more further and tomorrow
tomorrow asas well.
well. ButBut
23|
23 pease
please sus
just ation
allow me me toto saysay forfor aa moment,
moment, IT amam soso terribly,
tereibly,
24|24 serrinty
terribly sory
sorry for
for your toss.
your loss.
25
25 PRESIDENT·BIDEN:
PRESIDENT ‘BIDEN: You
You know,
know, a.a. lot
Lot of
of people
people ----
Zr,
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2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- have, have had similar
3 losses, or worse, without the kind of support I had. I have
4 a family that's an incredible family. And -- so I had -- I
5||
5 just -- II wonder
that --
know that
just know all the
wonder all people out
the people I've
there ---- I've
out there
6 written about and talked about. So many brave people who
77 get
get up
up every
every morning
morning and put one
and put ome foot
foot inin front
front ofof the
the other.
other.
8 And I don't know how the hell they do it. Just, just keep
9 moving forward. But I had a lot of help.
10 MR. HUR: One other thing we understand you spent
11 significant time on, I think toward the end of your vice
12 presidency as well as post-vice presidency, was the Biden
13 Cancer Initiative.
t 14
14 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yes.
Yes.
15 MR. HUR: Also known as the Cancer Moonshot. So,
16 can you tell us about your thinking in January 2017 about
17 how much time that was going to take of yours, and its
18 relative priority to other things that you were working on.
19 PRESIDENT EIDEN: It was high priority, and that's
20 one of the reasons why I liked Penn as well. Penn has a
21 great medical school, and a great cancer research facility
22 up there. And I talked with the president at Penn, and I
23 talked to the people at the school, and Beau had engaged
24 with them as well as a patient. And so -- the great thing
25 about Penn, it wasn't a straight line. I had access to --

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2 PRESIDENT BIDEM: --= a2 whole
PRESIDENT BIDEN: experts who
Tange ofof experts
whole range who
could netp
3|| couta
3 me on
help me on the thought I could
things, orox I thought
the things, help —
could help
4 they thought
o| ney thought 1I could
could be value, I© think,
added value,
be added well. Butmut
think, asas well.
5|| —=-- and
5 way that
the way
and the that came about was,
came about order toto trytry toto
was, II --—= intn order
6| car
6 deal with
with what
what seas was facing,
Beau was facing, I1 visited
visiced every
every major
major cancer
cancer
7||7 research
research facility
facility in the world,
in the world, the
the world,
world, with
with one
one
o|8 exception,
exception, toto interview
interview and find
and find out
out about
about what
what they
they knew
knew
5||
9 about
about s1tobtastons,
glioblastoma, what they
what they knew
knew about
about various
various --= because
because
1010 1amram s6a11still convinced
convinced —= IT am
-- am still
still working
working onon thethe Cancer
Cancer
11||
11 tnstiative
Initiative toto —-- what
what IT found
found was
was that
that cancer
cancer docs
docs areare
12
12 incredible,
incredible, but
but a lot of
a lot of them
them walk
walk by
by that
that mirror
mirror looking
looking atat
13||
13 themselves
themselves asas «a Pulitzer
Pulitzer prize ofof --— aa Nobel
Prize Nobel Prize
Prize about
about toto
14||
14 bebe won.
won. They
They don't
don't share data and
share data and information
information very very much.
much.
15||
15 soSo under
under the
the bana Administration, hehe told
Obama Administration, told meme II could
could begin
begin
16||
16 the
the reseszch,
research, see what wewe should
see what should bebe doing
doing asas anan
17||
17 sdnintstracion
administration to deal
to dest with
with cancer.
cancer.
18 And what I did find out was there's very little
15||
19 cortaboration,
collaboration, and —= even
and -- even onon projects
projects where
were there's
there's aa lotlot
20||
20 ofof money
money the
the federal
federal government puts
government puts outout forfor research
research
21
21 projects.
projects. And the
the deal
deal is,
is, you're
you're supposed
supposed to,
to, once
once that
that
22||
22 project
project isis finished,
finished, publish it.it. Well,
publish Well, thethe vastvast majority
majority
2|| dont
23 don't publish
publish itit for
for aa long
Long time,
tine, and
and they
they never
never publish
publish
26||
24 their
their failures.
failures. No --—- look,
No Look, when
when IT saysay --— notnot their
their
25
25 failure,
failure, when they
when they didn't
didn't reach
reach the
the conclusion
conclusion they
they were
were --
FREE STATE REPORTING, r~c.
Court Reporting. Transéripien
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11 [0:12:08.7)
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: -- for.
looking for.
-- looking And learn
you learn
And you
3| more som that as you Learn anyehing else. So one of my —=

3 more from that as you learn anything else. So one of my --
4 and the President blanche to ensage any neaber

4| ana the prestent gave ne carte blanche gave me carte to engage any member
5|| of tre rannistration. so, for exanpie, ve used to have

5 of the Administration. So, for example, we used to have
6| meetings ac win where there was ait the medical —- what 1

6 meetings at NIH where there was all the medical -- what I
7||7 did,
did, II made
made sure
sure that
that the Defense
the Defense Department
Department was
was there.
there. II
5|| mado sure chat the, the — Nash was chore. NASA knows more
8 made sure that the, the -- NASA was there. NASA knows more
3|| about, about dating wich some of the shings that nave to do
9 about, about dealing with some of the things that have to do
10) when working that cancer. Hany people die Erving to = when
10 when working that cancer. Many people die trying to -- when
13 they kits the cancer, they use a prozon — anyuay.

11 they kill the cancer, they use a proton -- anyway.
12
12 So
So there
there are all
are all kinds
kinds ofof things.
things. And II wanted,
And wanted, I I
13
13 wanted
wanted the
the Defense
Defense Department
Department in there
in there because
because they
they had
had
14]
14 computers ~ & nitiion biltion calculations per second. na
computers -- a million billion calculations per second. And
15||
15 no medical faciiiey had that. So ive erica to sive every
no medical facility had that. So I've tried to give every
16]
16 resource that ive 1earned - Tm no doctor ~ I've Learned
resource that I've learned - I'm no doctor - I've learned
17
17 theoreticaty could be added value in determining what was
theoretically could be added value in determining what was
18 the source of certain cancers, and therefore, cures. So
15] thats now © got so deeply engaged in that.

19 that's how I got so deeply engaged in that.
2
20 WR. HOR: Understood. So, let me shift gears here
MR. HUR: Understood. So, let me shift gears here
21|| sitohery. werve caked shout she Kinds of efforts and

21 slightly. We've talked about the kinds of efforts and
22) snictacives that you were thinking about spending tine on

22 initiatives that you were thinking about spending time on
25] aster the end of your vice prestasncy. cout you tent us
23 after the end of your vice presidency. Could you tell us
24) what you were thinking bak a. the tine, in samazy 2017,
24 what you were thinking back at the time, in January 2017,
25||
25 about
about where
where you planted toto spend
you planned spend your
your time?
tile? SoSo we
we --—-
on
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22 MR. HUR: —-
MR. BUR: -- understand you, you
that you,
understand that rented aa
you rented
3||
3 home on
home Chain Bridge
on chain Bridge Road inin McLean,
Road virginia.
Metean, Virginia.
J4 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE:MALE: Yeah.
Yeah.
55 MR. HOR:
MR. HUR: You You obviously have thethe lake
still have
buiously still house
lake house
6|6 inin wilmington
Wilmington atat that
that time.
tine. AtAt some
some point,
point, you
you acquired
acquired thethe
77 beach
beach home
home in
in Rehoboth.
Rehoboth. So there
So there were
were aa number
number ofof different
different
sl] einane
8 places mene
where yor
you count ty your
could lay yon head
neat after
after thethe end
ant ofof your
youn
99 vice
vice presidency.
presidency. How did
How did you
you think
think about
about where
where you
you were
were
10||
10 going
going to
to bebe spending
spending tine?
time?
un11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, II didn't
didn't think
think about
about thethe
1212| beach
beach house
house because
because 1I didn't
didnrt have
have thethe capacity
capacity toto --—- forfor 3636
1313 [| years,
years, 1I was
was Listed
listed as the
as the poorest
poorest manman inin Congress.
Congress. I I mean,
mean,
14
14 literally
literally listed
listed by that rating.
by that rating. And II did
And did fine,
fine, because
because I I
15||
15 had
had my my salary.
salary. So
So II never
never thought
thought ofof that.
that. II commuted
commuted
1616 | every
every day. day.
117 But
But the reason for
the reason for Penn
Penn wanting
wanting meme toto have
have aa
16||
18 factiity
facility inin Washington
Washington as, they
was, they wanted
wanted meme toto continue
continue toto
19||
19 engage
engage with with Congress
Congress and the
and che Senate,
senate, presidency,
presidency, andand thethe
20||
20 adninistracions
administrations ---- each adninistration inin debates
each administration debates about
about what
what
2221]] woe
the erosion
foreign potiny
policy tosves were.
issues were. And
Bnd so99 I2 was
une --== they
they hadnag
22|22 often
often set set up up for
for me me to
to be be guest
guest lecturers
lecturers inin Europe,
Europe, oror
23||
23 wherever
wherever itit was,
was, to to continue
continue toto engage
engage inin thethe fundamental
fundamental
2424|| copates
debates about
about the the future
suture ofof the the foreign
foreign policy
policy ofof thethe United
United
25||
25 states.
States.
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22 PRESIDENT that's why

BIOEN: SoSo that's
PRESIDENT BIDEN: and, ifif youyou
why --== and,
3 notice,
3 notice, the penn
the Penn Biden center was
Biden Center close asas youyou getget toto thethe
was asas close
4|4 captor
Capitol without
without being onon thethe Capitol
being grounds. ItIt hadhad
capitol grounds.
5|| conterence
5 conference rooms,
rooms, and the
and the like,
Like, soso II could
could bring
bring down
down
6|| peopte.
6 people. and
And theyra
they'd come down
come down andand debate
debate issues
Lesues likelike they
they dodo
77 in
in other
other fora,
fora, like the
like the Council
Council on
on Foreign
Foreign Relations.
Relations. That
That
8||
8 wes
was sort
sort ofof thethe generte
generic model.
model.
95 MR.
MR. HR: HUR: And given that,
And given that, waswas that
that the,
the, II suppose,
suppose,
1010 | the
the reason
reason ox you toto have
for you have aa home
home inin thethe Washington,
Washington, D.C. D.C.
1111 area
area?
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes, Yes, because
because mymy
13||
13 wite
wife vaswas stil)
still teaching.
teaching. In order
In order forfor herher toto bebe able
able toto
14
14 continue
continue to
to teach
teach at Northern Virginia
at Northern Virginia Community
Community College.
College.
15||
15 And
And rather
rather than have
than her commute.
have her commute. And
And ifLf IT hadhad gone
gone back
back
16
16 and
and located
located in
in Delaware
Delaware permanently, II wouldn't
permanently, wouldn't have
have had
had the
the
1717 seach.
reach.
118 I'd
I'd been = I'dTd bebe traveling
been -- traveling aa lotLot down
down here and here and
19||19 inin other

other aseas
areas to not
to not just
just engage
engage American
American diplomats,
diplomats, butbut toto
20
20 engage
engage foreign
foreign diplomats
diplomats to come
to come and
and talk
talk about
about foreign
foreign
2121 povicy.
policy.
222 MR.
MR. HOR: Ondorstood.
HUR: Understood.
»23 PRESIOENT BIDEN: And

PRESIDENT BIDEN: And with
with --= expose
expose students
students too.too.
20||24 1I mean,
mean, that
that was the whole
was the whole idea idea here,
here, expose
expose thethe Penn
Penn
25|| students
25 students toto these
these opportuntties.
opportunities.
Court
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Reporting Transéription
Transcription
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11 10:16:19.3)
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22 MR. HUR:
WR. Okay. Any
HUR: Okay. other questions
Any other that
questions onon that
3|3 generat
general overview
overview?
44 All
All right.
right. I'd like
I'd like toto move
move onto
onto the
the next
next topic,
topic,
5||
5 which
which generally
generally isis going
going toto cover
cover questions
questions about
about your
your
66 handling
handling of
of classified
classified information and
information and materials
materials during
during your
your
7]7| vice
vice presidency.
presidency. And let
And let me
me try
try toto frame
frame the
the following
following setset
6|8 ofof questions
questions for you. We
for you. fe dodo understand
understand --—- wewe well
well
o|9 understand
understand that
that the president and
the President and the
the Vice
vice President
Prestdent intn ourour
10||10 system
system of of government
government areare the
the ultimate
ultimate consumers
consumers ofof
11||
11 intelitgence
intelligence and classified information.
and classified information. And And inin order
order forfor
i 12
12 you
you to
to properly
properly do your constitutional
do your constitutional duties,
duties, you
you have
have toto
13||
13 have
have ready
ready and and convenient
convenient access toto classified
access classified information.
information.
114 SoSo part
part of the reason
of the reason we've
we've been
heen talking
talking toto soso
15||
15 many
many people
people during
during thethe course
course ofof our
our investigation
investigation is,is, we're
we're
16||
16 trying
trying to to get
get aa better
better sense ofof how
sense how vice
vice presidents,
presidents, andand youyou
17||
17 pareicutar
particular when
when — you you inin particular
particular when when you
you were
were Vice
vice
16||
18 president,
President, how you stored
how you stored andand accessed
accessed that intonation,
that information,
1||
19 given
given that
that thethe handling
handling rules, the
rules, the classified
classified handling
handling rules
rules
20||20 that
that apply
apply to to every other human
every other human being
being inin government
government don't
don't
21||
21 necossacily
necessarily apply
apply toto the
the President
President and and Vice
vice President.
President.
22||
22 those
Those twotwo folks
folks areare ateterent.
different.
223 ALL
All that being said,
that being said, inin thethe end,
end, wewe have
have toto write
write
24||24 aa zeport
report that
that explains
explains how and
how and why
uby certain
cortain classified
classified
25||
25 documents
documents got.got to to where
where theythey got.
got. So,
So, part
part ofof why
why we're
we're —
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22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: ~~ asking
asking this next
this next setset ofof questions,
questions,
2 3512
3 and worse
we've mean
been wating
talking ve so90 many
to many ofof thewir people
prupte we've
werve talked
satin
44 to
to is,
is, we
we are
are just
just trying
trying to understand
to understand the
the paper
paper flow
flow ofof
s| classified
5 classified information.
information. How does
How does itit getget toto aa Vice
vice
6| president?
6 President? How
How aid
did itic get
got toto then-
then- Vice
vice President
President Biden?
Biden?
77 And
And then
then where
where did these documents
did these documents go
go from
from there?
there?
.8 SoSo it's
it's ==-- that's
that's thethe reason
reason --== that's
that's thethe
99 relevance
relevance of
of this
this next set
next of questions
set of questions of
of that
that whole
whole topic
topic
10||10 toto our

our invescigation.
investigation. So allall that
So that said,
said, wewe hope
hope that
that you
you
11||
11 can
can share
share withwith us your recollections
us your recollections about how
-about how you
you handled
handled
12||12 classiried
classified ana
and those
those paper flows
paper flows and and processes
processes during
during thethe
13||13 tine
time thatthat youyou vere
were thethe Vice
vice President.
President.
114 So,
So, we we understand
understand that, due
that, dus toto thethe sheer
sheer volume
volume ofof
15||
15 paper
paper and and the
the need
need to to send
send material
material toto Archives
Archives after,
after, after
after
#5]16 youre
you're duns
done with then, your
with them, your papers
posers were Yous constantly
ConRbRLLY beingDRI
17||
17 collected
collected byby membors
members of of your
your staff.
staff. And And new
new materials
materials werewere
18||
18 being
being provided
provided toto you.
you. and part
And part ofof thethe way shat thas
way that that
19 happened was that SO

you received binders on a near-daily
20
20 basis.
basis. Sometimes
Sometimes they were unclassified
they were unclassified binders;
binders; sometimes
sometimes
21||21 they
they were
were classified
classified binders.
binders. And this
And this is,is, II suppose,
suppose, aa
2e)l22 wore
more tester
higher dover,
level, move
more enaven
general sueseien.
question.
2
23 II could
could seesee how there might
how there might bebe aa tension
tension between,
between,
24||
24 onon the
the one
one hand,
hand, your
your state
staff being eager
being eager toto collect
collect thatthat
25
25 stuff
stuff from
from you,
you, make sure it's
make sure it's properly
properly disposed
disposed of
of and
and --
Court
Court Reporting.
Reporting
egFranecripeion
Transcription
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22 WR. BUR: = then sent to Archives, ox whatever

MR. HUR: then sent to Archives, or whatever
3|| needs to nappen to 55. 2ut on the other Hand, you nay says
3 needs to happen to it. But on the other hand, you may say,
44 well,
well, I'm
I'm not
not done with that.
done with that. II need,
need, II need
need to
to read
read that
that
55| more than onces © need to hang onto st for a Little bits T
more than once; I need to hang onto it for a little bit; I
6 ¢| neat to atgest 18 50 1 can property incorporate it into my

need to digest it so I can properly incorporate it into my
7 7| thinking snd ny decision making. and so I could understand

thinking and my decision making. And so I could understand
8 of]
-- ant 1 shin verve gon an wnerstanding of those wo
and I think we've got an understanding of those two
9 s| competing aynentes.
competing dynamics.
I"
10 57 wish Sets SIREN, VAT Yih waz Vis Fen
So with that framing, when you were Vice President
12] ana you received classified documents that you wanted to

11 and you received classified documents that you wanted to
12 nang onto for a bit —- 1% vasn's ust a, send it once ana

12 hang onto for a bit -- it wasn't just a, read it once and
13| send st on type thing. You wanted to hang onto it for a

13 send it on type thing. You wanted to hang onto it for a
16| 1te610 2onger. ow woud you —- how did you hands thas?
14 little longer. How would you -- how did you handle that?
35 | sow sai you svome sose savasiaze, st how dks 45 evenuslly

15 How did you store those materials, and how did it eventually
16] got zaturnad to where st needed to go?

16 get returned to where it needed to go?
»
17 SRSTOONT BIDEN: Took, flaws of sil, the binders
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Look, first of all, the binders
16|| you tat about ware binders that were for the Presidentist
18 you talk about were binders that were for the Presidential
15|| oasty price. 1c was a blue bag that nas a lock on it tat
19 Daily Brief. It was a blue bag that has a lock on it that
20|| comes over. Tc has a computor in it, and ic has a 1

20 comes over. It has a computer in it, and it has a I
21| moan, o Leptop kind of deal. And it has a binder with the
21 mean, a laptop kind of deal. And it has a binder with the
22|| = sa2 the most soportans = T cous show you one sodey. but
22 all the most important I could show you one today, but
23| of the events of the day. So, it'd be Tab 1, 2, 3, 4, ana

23 of the events of the day. So, it'd be Tab 1, 2, 3, 4, and
24 it will have a listing of what they are.
25 Alsons. everything, vith minimal exsephions, in ==

Almost eve~ything, with rninim~l exceptions, in
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- that
PRESIDENT BIDEN: classified. And
that isis classified. And soso II
3|3 would sit there
would sit there and either
and either read that with
read that personnel.
other personnel.
with other
4|4 We
We have
have aa --
-- what
what they
they call
call aa PDB,
PDB, Presidential
Presidential DailyDaily Brief,
Brief,
55 which
which II would
would attend.
attend. Or
Or II would
would be
be reading
reading itit myself.
myself. And
And
66 when
when II took
took notes,
notes, II would
would take
take notes
notes on
on the
the paper
paper most
most ofof
i 77 the
the time
time to
to remind
remind myself
myself what II wanted
what wanted to
to follow
follow up
up on.
on.
6|
8 And
And then
then 1'dI'd sit
sit with
with my national security
my national security team,
team, and
and say
say wewe
5||
9 should
should follow
follow up
up on this, find
on this, find outout more
more about
about whether
whether oror
10||
10 not,
not, you
you know,
know, who
who killed
killed Cock Robin,
Cock Robin, you
you know,
know, and
and find
find
| 1111 out.
out.
J 12
12 And
And so the binders
so the binders like
like this
this that
that II received,
received, I I
13||
13 mean,
mean, you
you know,
know, aa binder
binder would bebe handed
would handed this
this way.
way. II don't
don't
14||
14 recall
recall getting
getting aa whole
whole lot of those
lot of those binders,
binders, and
and ---- like,
like,
15||
15 something
something like
like you're
you're handing me
handing me today.
today. ItIt would
would bebe thethe
16||
16 Presidential
Presidential Daily
Daily BriefBrief that would
that would have
have it.it.
IY17 But
But lots
lots of times what
of times what II get
get is,is, II get
get briefed
briefed
18||
18 from
from my my national
national security
security advisor, II get
advisor, get briefed
briefed byby my,
my. mymy
16||
19 —--- whoever
whoever was was handling
handling various aspects
various aspects ofof foreign
foreign policy
policy
20||
20 for
for me.me. AndAnd that's
that's how
how I'dI'd getget ---- they'd
they'd come
come inin and
and they'd
they'd
21||21 have,
have, youyou know,
know, five five papers
papers in their
in their hand.
hand. And And they'd
they'd say,say,
22||
22 here's
here's aa copy
copy for for you,
you, let's
let's go over
go over what
what we're
we're doing
doing here.
here.
23
23 That
That was the way
was the way ---- II mean,
mean, II got
got very
very little
little
24||
24 material
material that
that had
had on the front
on the front ofof it,it, youyou know,
know, classi
classi --—-
25||
25 with
with thethe yellow
yellow oror —-
-- II mean,
mean, the
the redred boundary
boundary onon it,it, oror --—
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2
2 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: blue one,
BIDEN: --~~ thethe blue whatever. I I
one, whatever.
3||
3 got very 11tt1e
got very little of that
of that other than
other than through that I T
t0B that
through thethe PDB
4|
4 recarr.
recall. anything
Anything that that onon it,it, what
had that
that had when
would dodo when
what II would
55 ©I cintshed
finished st,
it, 1d
I'd leave desk and
Leave ittt onon thethe desk collect,
they'd collect,
and they'd
of
6 theyra
they'd cortece
collect ie,
it, cate itie in.in.
take
,7 And
And == -- I'mI'm trying
trying toto --= does
does that
that answer
answer your
your
88 question?
question?
59 WR.
MR. HOR: It's very
HUR: It's very helpful.
helpful. II havehave aa follow-on
follow-on
| 10]10 question.
question.
111 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Sure.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Sure.
1212 MR.
MR. HUR: Which isis --—- soso let's
HUR: Which let's focus
focus onon thethe PDB
BOB
13
13 materials,
materials, which think you
which I think you said
said had
had an
an electronic
electronic
16||
14 component
component to
to 1€,
it, 1ke --=
like
1515 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
EIDEN: Yeah, II never
Yeah, never used
used that
that one.
one.
16
16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. But there
But there were
were also
also paper,
paper, hard
hard
17]17 copy
copy --
118 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ItIt was

PRESIDENT BIDEN: was aa binder.
binder.
1919 A
MR. HUR: A— binder.
20
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: A binder.
A binder.
221 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: A PDB binder,
A PDB binder, okay.
okay. SoSo let's
let's saysay you're
you're
22|
22 reviewing
reviewing the
the 208 bindex, and
PDB binder, and you
you think
think toto yourself,
yoursel€, this,
this,
23||
23 this
this stuse
stuff right
right here, this
here, this part
part ofof thethe PDB
BoB binder,
binder, that's
that's
2¢||24 important,
important, and
and II want to, II want
want to, want toto think
think about
about that
that some
sone
2825)f moun.
more, %I ven want toto non
read it 6 again.
gine I2 want wank tovo talk
sat tovo myny ==
Court Reporting Teanséription
ey
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
—
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11 [0:23:23.8)
[0:23:23.8]
2 MR. HUR: -- members of my own national security
3 staff about it. And I'm not ready for that to get whisked
a4 away
away and
and taken
taken off
off my
my desk.
desk.
5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't ever recall that
6||
6 happening.
happening. It
It may have.
may have. But usually
But usually what
what I'd
I'd do,
do, I'dI'd write
write
7 down on a notecard, follow up with Jake on "bang," follow up
8 with "boom on boom." And then I'd call my team in and say,
9 what, what do you think this means, that, that so-and-so
10 move forces here or there, or so-and-so said such-and-such,
' 11
11 and follow
and on that.
follow on that. And ask, can
I'd ask,
And I'd you do
can you me aa memo
do me on
memo on
12 that? And they'd go back and -- and, anyway.
13
13 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. Understood.
Understood. Do you
Do you recall
recall any
any
14 instances in which, you know, say the PDB binder had Tabs 1
15
15 through
through 55 on
on it,
it, through 10,
1 through 10, or
or something,
something, where
where you
you would
would
16 actually remove something and say, you know, to make my
17 conversation with my national security staff, my team,
18 easier, I'm going to say, pull this out.
19 PRESIDENT EIDEN: I don't recall doing that.
20 MR. HUR: And then I'm going to say, hey, guys, I
21 need to follow up on this.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't recall that.
23 MR. HUR: Okay.
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Taking anything out of the PDB
25 binder, you know. What I would do is, I'd say, I'm --
EEE
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1]1 [0:24:37.1) 11
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- keeping
PRESIDENT BIDEN: the binder
keeping the this
binder tilltill this
3|3 afternoon, , and
afternoon and 1I want
want to to talk about this.
you about
talk toto you back
Come back
this. Come
4|4 and take
inin and look at
take aa look at it
it with me. But
with me. But II don't recall
ever recall
don't ever
5|5 taking
taking pieces
pieces of the
of the binder out.
binder out.
66 HUR: TI see.
MR. HOR:
MR. see. Okay. Were there
Okay. Were occasions inin
there occasions
7||
7 which
which youyou said,
said, you
you know, I'm going
know, I'm going toto hang
hang onto
onto this
this PDB
PDB
68 binder
binder for
for aa while.
while. Like,
Like, IT need
need another
another day
day oror two
two with
with
sl9 12
it?
1010 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, there
BIDEN: Well, there may
may be.be. We'd
We'd lock
lock
| 11]11 back up.
itit back up. II said,
said, want toto see
II want this one
see this what
with what
one with
12||
12 tomorrow
tomorrow says. says. And
And so I'd keep
so I'd keep itit and
and then
then I'dI'd have,
have, I'dI'd
13||
13 have
have it it with
with me me in the office
in the office forfor aa day,
day, oror whatever.
whatever.
114 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.Okay. And when
And when you
you would
would have
have itit with
with
15||
15 you
you in in thethe office
office for,
for, for that
for additional period
that additional period ofof time,
time,
16||
16 where
where did did thatthat end end up getting --—-
up getting
1717 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ItIt was
was locked,
locked, and and thethe staff
staff
16||
18 would =
would -- II don't
don't know
know where they put
where they actual, thethe
but thethe actual,
put it,it, but
19||
19 actual
actual case
case it it waswas inin was actually --= itit had
was actually had aa lock
lock onon it.it.
2020 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. And whom
And whom would
would youyou end
end upup asking
asking
2121 toto dodo that?
that?
222 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: II never
never asked
asked anybody,
anybody, II just
just —-
23||
23 itit just
just got
got done.
done. II don't
don't know ---- II can't
know can't remember
remember who.who.
224 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: II ses.see. Okay. But
Okay. But ifif youyou left
left thethe PDB
PDB
25||
25 binder
binder on on your
your desk
desk —-
Court 5.0.
Reporting
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0rrT 22
22
1|1 ro:2s:42.41
[0:25:42.4]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yes, would take
they would
Yes, they take it.it.
33 MR. HUR: How
MR. HUR: How did they know
did they whether toto take
know whether take it,it,
4|4 and
and then
then --
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ItIt was was on on my desk.
my desk.
66 MR. HUR: --
MR. HUR: away.
goes away.
-- itit goes
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: IfIf itit was was onon my
my desk,
desk, they'd
they'd
8|8 take
take it.it.
°9 MR. HUR: Siz,

MR. HUR: Sir, just letlet me
just finish my
me finish question forfor
my question
10]
10 aa moment.
moment.
111 How
How did they know
did they know ---- ifif they
they saw
saw aa PDB
PDB binder
binder onon
12||
12 your
your desk,
desk, howhow diddid theythey knowknow whether
whether toto taketake itit and
and know,
know,
13||
13 he's
he's done
done with
with it, it, it can
it can go
go away
away toto wherever
wherever these
these things
things
. 1414 go.
go. or,
Or, hehe needs
needs it it for for another
another day, day, soso let's
let's lock
lock itit upup
15||
15 here.
here. How
How did
did theythey know know that?
that?
1616 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II don't
don't ever
ever recall
recall the the binder
binder
17||
17 alone
alone being
being left
left on
on thethe desk.
desk. The The binder
binder would
would bebe inin thethe
18||
18 bag.
bag. If
If II put
put thethe bagbag on on my
my desk,
desk, itit says,
says, taketake itit away,
away.
19||
19 I'm
I'm finished
finished with
with it. it. IfIf II took took itit and
and II left
left it,it, and
and I I
20||
20 left
left it
it next
next to to my my desk,
desk, that meant
that meant hold
hold onto
onto itit tilltill
21)21 tomorrow.
tomorrow.
22
22 MR. HUR: II see.
MR. HUR: see. And And when
when youyou say
say next
next toto your
your
23||
23 desk,
desk, doesdoes that
that mean actually onon the
mean actually the floor?
floor?
224 PRESIDENT
don't knowknow where
where thethe hell.
hell.
25
25 MR. HUR: Qkay.
MR. HUR: Okay. But But someplace
someplace otherother than
than onon ----
courtReporting.Transcciption
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11 to:26:35.21
[0:26:35.2)
22 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: =-- your
-- desk?
your desk?
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah. ItIt would
would be,be, itit would
would be,be,
a||
4 you
you know,
know, sitting
sitting agatnst
against the drawer
the drawer oror onon thethe endend table
tabie
5||
5 behind me.
benind me. But But it would not
it would not bebe -- itit was was tootoo bigbig toto putput inin
66 the
the outbox.
outbox. 1I had
nad two boxes onon my
two boxes my desk,
desk, anan in-box
in-box --—- you you
7||
7 probaniy
probably dodo too
too if you're ever
if you're ever able
able toto keep
keep upup with
with what
what
68 you're
you're doing
doing - and and anan out-box.
out-box. Okay.Okay. SoSo II wouldwould drop arop itit
s|9 16's
it's big.
big. 1I mean,
mean, thethe briefcase
briefcase isis this this big.
big. I'dI'd drop aren
10||
10 1¢it onon top
top of of those
those two two boxes,
boxes, and/or
and/or onon mymy desk
desk when
when II left.
left.
11]|11 That
That meant
meant 1'm I'm finished
finished with this,
with this, this
this particular
particular ----
1212 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: II see. see.
1313 PRESTOBNT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: --—- PDB. PDB.
114 MR.
MR. HUR:HOR: But But ifif itit was
was not
not inin that
that particular
particular
15||
15 piace
place on on your
your desk,desk, then they --=- your
then they your staff
stats knew
knew =
1616 PRESTOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: They'dThey'd hold
hold itit —-
ts17 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: = -- wewe got
got toto hang
hang ontoonto this?
this?
118 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: They'dThey'd hang
hang ontoonto itit tilltill thethe
19||
19 next
next aay.day.
2020 MR.
MR. HUR:HOR: Okay.Okay.
2121 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And where
where theythey putput it,it, I I don't
don't
2222 xno.
know.
2323 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.Okay. ALL right.
All right. That'sThat's very
very helpful.
helpful.
24||
24 And
And we we may
may circle
circle back toto that
back that inin aa little
little bit. bit. But But letlet meme
25||
25 move
move on
on to
to —-
-- as long asas we're
as long we're talking·about
talking about your
your staff
staff --—-
Couso.c.
5Aeporeing. Tiamabciprion
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[0:27:35.7) .
1| 1 0:27:35
22 MR. HOR:
MR. HUR: -- -- we've gotten toto know
we've gotten names ofof
know thethe names
3||
3 some of
some the folks
of the folks who worked inin your
who worked front-office staff
your front-office staff
al4 auring
during your vice
your presidency, y, [ERIE, Michele
vice presicenc smith.
Michele Smith,
S|5 EE, -- and IE I
SE, who
DOJ ho then bec
ce became
of6 SE So I© wanted
So vate toto ask eck some
sone questions
questions
7|7 relating
relating to
to duties
duties that
that those ---- II guess
those guess I'llI'll call
call them
them
front-office ice staff.
o|8 front-off staff. Is that
Is that anan accurate description ofof
accurate description
sl9 them
them?
1010 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: II never
never did,
did, but
but sure.
sure.
un11 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay. Well, what
Okay. Well, what did
did you
you call
call them?
them?
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: By By their
their first
first names.
names.
1313 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay.
14
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENTBIDEN: I'm not
I'm not being facetious.
being facetious.
115 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: No.
No.
1616 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'm I'm not
not being facetious. And,
being facetious. And,
17||
17 byby the
the way,
way, aa lot lot of this stuff
of this stuff would
would come come back
back andand whoever
whoever
16||
18 = ifif ny intelligence nce team
my intellige came in,in, and
team came and they gave meme
they gave
1919 (| something, , they,
something they, they'd
they'd come
come and and pick
pick itit up,up, whatever
whatever itit
20||
20 was.
was.
2121 So,
So, for
for example,
example, now, I'm
now, I'm trying
trying toto thinkthink back
back 1010
22||22 years,
years, but
but -- -- oror more
more thanthan 1010 years,
years, II guess.guess. No, No, about
about 1010
23||
23 years.
years. But
But today,
today, II had
had aa briefing
briefing with with -- aboutabout what's
what's
24||
24 going
going on on in
in Israel,
Israel, aa detailed
detailed briefing, inin my
briefing, my residence
residence
25||
25 upstairs
upstairs inin aa rom
room that's
that's not
not dissimila
dissimilar r toto this
this off
off ofof ---=
ras
CourtD.C. state nsportIvG,
Reporting Transcript
TNC.ion
Area 301-261-1902 02
D.C. Area 301-261-15
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000056
— DRAFT
Ora 2
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11 [0:28:53.9]
[0:28:53.9)
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- the

PRESIDENT BIDEN: bedroom. And
the bedroom. was
And II ---- itit was
3|3 aa secure
secure call.
call. ItIt finished,
finished, and ordered one
and II ordered papers,
one ofof mymy papers,
44 what
what II want,
want, and
and II got on the
got on the phone,
phone, I said, Jake
I said, Jake and
and
5||
5 Tony Blinken
Tony Blinken —--- Jake's
Jake's my national security
my national Tony
guys Tony
security guy;
: 66 Biinken
Blinken my secretary
isis my Secretary of state. II said,
of State. guys, wewe gotgot
said, guys,
| 7||7 to
to follow
follow up
up on
on boom, boom, boom,
boom, boom, boom, what's
what's going
going toto happen
happen
6)8 here.
here. nd
And then
then II took
took my
my papers,
papers, looked
looked atat what
what II need,
need, putput
9S9 them
them in
in aa pile,
pile, and they're sitting
and they're sitting in
in the
the middle
middle ofof my
my
10||
10 desk.
desk. Now,
Now, somebody now ---- itit would
somebody now would probably
probably bebe - would
would
11||
11 come and pick
along and
come along pick those another --—= oror Tony
up, oror another
those up, come
may come
Tony may
; 12
12 in,
in, or
or whomever,
whomever, and it's
and it's -- even
even though
though it's
it's inin the
the
13||
13 residence,
residence, and
and grab whatever itit isis that
grab whatever that II wanted.
wanted. OrOr justjust
1¢||
14 eave
leave 1t it there
there for me
for me toto bebe able
ante toto review
review when
when IT getget back.
hack.
1s15 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So So what
what you
you just
just walked
walked through
through was was anan
16||
16 exanpre
example of of your
your practice
practice as President?
as president
PRESIDENT BIDEN: was thethe same
same thing.
thing.
118 Ma.
MR. HOR:
HUR: TE was.
It was.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: was the
the same
same process.
process. I I just just
20||
20 can't
can't remember
remember who who thethe individuals
individuals were were doing
doing it.it.
221 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. But besides
But besides thethe PDB
POB binder
binder —-
222 SRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah.
BIDEN: Yeah.
223 WR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: = that was
-- that was another
another flowflow ofof classified
classified
2024|| documents
documents 0to you
you == -- your interiigence team,
your intelligence team, when
when youyou were
were
25||
25 vice
Vice president,
President, bringing
bringing you classified
you clessitiet material
material onon --=
CourtReportinganTramséription
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Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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0 26 2
11 [0:30:04.9]
[0:30:04.9]
22 MR. HOR:
WR. -- other
HUR: -- That also
topics? That
other topics? happened
aldo happened
when you
5|3 when were vice
you were president?
Vice President?
44 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: You said
You said beyond
beyond PDE?
PDB?
s5 wa
MR. oR ves, sir.
HUR: Yes, sir.
.6 PRESTOBNT BIDEN: Yeah,
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yeah, sure.
sure.
77 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Okay.
Okay. Were there
Were there ever
ever occasions
occasions ---- I'll
I'll
6|8 ask
ask che
the same
same question
question asked before
I asked before about
about thethe PDE
208 --—- about
about
o|9 nts
this other
other category
category of classified documents.
of classified documents. Were tere there
there
| 10
10 occasions
occasions when
when you
you thought,
thought, II want
want to
to hang
hang onto
onto this.
this. II
11||11 gotta
gotta readread it it again,
again, II gotta
gotta think
think about
about itit some
some more,
move, I T
12||
12 gotca
gotta wattwait untis until something else
something else comes
cones down
down --—-
Is13 SRESIOBNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: EIDEN: If itit was
If was marked
marked with
with aa --<= ifif itit
1¢||14 vas
was 1n in aa binder,
binder, or had
or had a,a, aa marking
marking onon it,it, "Top
"Top Secret,"
Secret,”
15||
15 you
you know,
know, that that cover page, oror "Eyes
cover page, "Eyes Only,"
Only," then
then IT would
would
16||16 atuays
always give give that that back back and and have
have them
them hold
hold it,it, wherever
wherever they they
17||
17 neta
held st, it, and and for for me me toto --—-
118 But
But lots lots of tines what
of times uhat happens
happens is,is, PatPat Moynihan
Moynihan
1919 [| was
was right
right —--- wewe over-classity
over-classify everyening. And
everything. And one
one ofof thethe
20||20 things
things that
that ©I = for example,
-- for example, everyevery time
time Jake
Jake might
might —
21|21 writes
writes meme aa memo,memo, he he puts
puts onon itit "Eyes
"Eyes Only."
Only." Well,
Well, 9999
22||
22 percent
percent ofof what's
what's in there
in there isis notnot classified
classified material.
material. I1
23||
23 sata,
said, dake,
Jake, 1111
I'll read
read it, it, gogo through
through it,it, mark
mark itit up,up, askask
2||
24 questions
questions onon itit for for himhin toto get
get back
back toto me.
me. ButBut IT finally
Finally
25||
25 said,
said, Jake,
Jake, only
only mark those things
mark those things which·really
which'really are
are --—-
Jug HeAen
contr
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: —- "Eyes

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Only" "Eyes
"Eyes Only" Only."
"Eyes Only."
But, 15's
3|3 But. it's soso assy
easy just anything IT write
say, anything
Sust toto say, must bebe
write must
"Eyes ony."
44 "eves Only." and 95.5
And 99.9 percent has nothing
percent ofof itit has with
nothing toto dodo with
55 anything
anything II couldn't
couldn't pick
pick up and read
up and out loud
read out public.
the public.
loud toto the
.6 WR. UR: Okay.

MR. HUR: Okay.
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Am II making
Am making any
any sense
sense toto you?
you?
.8 wR.
MR. UR: Yes.
HUR: Yes.
: 99 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay.
Okay.
1010 MR.
MR. HR: Understood. SoSo letlet meme circle
HUR: Understood. circle back
back now
now
11||
11 to
to the
the questions
questions relating
relating to = [|
to., >> ,§ Michele,
Michele,
12
12 =
., those
those folks
folks who -- maybe
who maybe I'll
I'll describe
describe itit asas folks
folks
13||
13 who
who sat
sat at
at those
those desks right outside
desks right outside your
your West
Hest Wing
ing office
office
| 14||
14 when
when you
you were
were vice
Vice president,
President, that, that
that, that group
group ofof people.
people.
! 15
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Okay.
116 WR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Did you ask
Did you ask those
those folks
folks whowho satsat atat those
those
17]|17 desks
desks right
right outside
outside your West Wing
your West ming office
office asas ViceVice President,
President,
50018 00
did yon
you wun
ask them
them to 20 keep
en --== well
it --we did8 you yor askman them
them tote hang
tary
19||
19 onto
onto classified
classified material that
material that you
you would
would like
1tke toto consult
consuls
20||
20 again,
again, and
and have them maintain
have them maintain itit outout inin their
their office
office space?
space?
221 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II don't
PRESIDENT BIDEN: don't recall
recall that.that.
222 WR.
MR. HUR: Okay. DoDo you
HUR: Okay. you recall
recall where
where classified
classified
23||23 would
would bebe kept
kept L£if you asked your
you asked your staff
staff toto hang
hang onto
onto it?Le?
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No.
225 we.
MR. HR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
Court Raporting Tranceripcion
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[0:32:34.0]
22 PRESTOENT BIOEN: II assume

PRESIDENT BIDEN: locked itit upup inin
they locked
assume they
3|3 their,
their, tnin their
their dravers
drawers in their desk,
in their may bebe aa
there may
desk, oror there
of4 sate,
safe, xI donc
don't Know.
know.
s5 MR. HOR:
MR. HUR: So you had
So ifLE you your staff
asked your
had asked hang
staff toto hang
6|6 some classified
onto some
onto classified matertal that
material you, you
that you, want toto
didn't want
you didn't
7]|7 go
go away
away quite
quite yet, how, how
yet, how, how did
did they
they know
know how
how long
long toto hang
hang
4 88 onto it?
onto it? In other
In other words, would
words, they ever
would they come back
ever come you
back toto you
o|9 and
and say.
say, six,
sir, it's
it's been
been aa fewfew days,
days, dodo you
you still
stil: need
need this,this,
10||
10 oror can
can ve
we get
get rid
rid ofof it? it
111 MR. SISKEL:
WR. SISKEL: II just want toto make
just want because hehe
make ---- because
12||
12 satd
said he he didnre
didn't recall
recall ever doing
ever doing that,
that, soso what
what --—- isis thisthis —-
| 13||
13 can you rephrase
can you rephrase your
your question, Rob?
question, Rob?
114 ME.
MR. HOR:
HUR: I'm I'm sorry.
sorry. II thought
thought that
tha hehe actually
actually
15||
15 aid
did remember
remember having
having some materials
some materials stored
stored away
away andand locked
locked
16
16 away
away by
by his
his staff.
staff.
117 SRESTOSNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: II said
said IT don't
don't know
know where
where they
they
16||
18 locked
locked = -- there's
there's things that
things that I've
I've said
said that
that IT micht need
might need
1919 {| this
this tomorrow.
tomorrow. My
My --== they
they could
cond veryvery well
weil have
have then
then given
given
20||
20 s¢it back
back to to the
the staster
staffer who wrote
who wrote it.it.
221 Wr. ORs Right.
MR. HUR: Right.
222 PRESIOBNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: AndAnd remind
remind themthem tomorrow
tomorrow when
when I I
23||
23 tatk
talk about
about it.it. They
They could have putput itit somewhere.
could have somewhere. IT don't
don't
24||
24 wmon.
know.
225 WR. HUR: SoSo this

MR. HUR: this next
next question
question I'mI'm asking
asking ----
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22 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -- right now
—- right about where
not about
now isis not was
where itit was
3||
3 kept.
kept, but
but rather
rather now long
how 10mg --
‘4 BRESTOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: idea.
have nono idea.
BIDEN: II have
55 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -- did your
~-- did know how
staff know
your staff onto
hang onto
how toto hang
66 162
it? bid
Did they
they nave
have aa process
process where
wnere they
they said,
said, sir,six, it'sit's been
been
77|| aa couple
couple of
of days, do you
days, do you still
still need
need this?
this?
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
No. What would
What would happen
happen is,
is,
| o|9 whoever
whoever the
the person
person who wrote
who wrote the
the memo
memo that
that I1 want,
want, they
they
10
10 would
would probably
probably come back to
come back to say,
say, do
do you
you still
still want
want toto talk
talk
11)11 about
about this?
this? That's
That's more likely.
more likely.
1212 WR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay. Okay.
113 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: And And II just
ust wanted
wanted toto note,
note, soso it'sit's clear
clear]
14]14 onon the
the record,
record, the President just
the President just used
used thethe word
word "probably."
"probably."
1515 1I mean,
mean, in in aa given
given day day -- = II just
just want
want toto getget clear
clear ---- he'she's
1616 giving
giving nis
his best
best recollection
recollection of conversations
of conversations onon tons tens ofof
1717 material
material that
that could
could have come
have come hishis way,
way, andand hehe would
would have have
16||
18 connunicated
communicated his proforences and
his preferences and hishis wishes various --— in
wishes various in
19||
19 various
various fashion.
fashion. II just
just want
want toto make
make that
that clear
clear onon thethe record.
record.
2020 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Onderstood.
Understood. Understood. Okay.
Understood. Okay. SoSo backback
21||
21 when
when thethe tine
time you you were serving asas Vice
were serving vice President,
President, sir,six, diddid
22||
22 you
you bring
bring classified
classified material back
material back toto thethe Naval
Naval Observatory
Observatory
23||
23 trom
from the
the west
West wing?
Wing?
224 PRESIOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'm I'm suresure II did.
did.
2525 MR.
MR. HUR: Un-hem. Can
HUR: Um-hmm. Can youyou tell
tell usus about
about what
what ----
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22 MR. HUR: --
MR. HUR: material you
kinds ofof material
-- kinds would take
you would back
take back
with you?
3|3 with you? You talked
You talked about would you
about --—- would you take binders
PDB binders
take PDB
44 back
back to to the
the —---

66 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- Naval Observatory?
-- Naval Observatory?
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Never
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Never ---- no.
no.
88 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
} 99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Never --
Never -- PDB
PDB binders
binders were
were
10||
10 treated
treated in
in aa completely
completely different
different way.
way. They got
They got locked
locked up
up
1
11 --
-- when
when II finished
finished reading
reading it, they
it, they get
get locked
locked up,
up, they
they get
get
1212|| handed
handed to
to whoever
whoever is
is going to take
going to take them,
them, and
and it's
it's usually
usually
| 13||
13 people
people from
from the
the intelligence
intelligence community would
community would come
come and
and get
get
14|
14 them.
them. II guess
guess that's
that's who came and
who came and got
got them.
them. And And ---- but
but —-
15||
15 and
and ifif II was
was going
going to take something
to take something home
home toto continue
continue toto
16
16 study
study it,
it, or
or have
have staff
staff over to
over to the
the house
house to
to continue
continue the
the
17
17 discussion,
discussion, II would
would say, I'm taking
say, I'm taking this
this with
with me.
me. And I'd
And I'd
16||
18 hand
hand it it back
back to to whoever
whoever the the staff
staff person
person was was that
that hadhad thethe
16||
19 clearance
clearance that
that II was was talking
talking toto aboutabout it.it. But But II don't
don't
20||
20 recall
recall any
any specifics
specifics about that.
about that. But, But, II mean,mean, that's
that's howhow II
21||
21 would
would do do itit if if II was
was going
going to to dodo anything.
anything.
2222 And
And there's
there's aa lot
lot ofof ---- excuse
excuse me. me. Excuse
Excuse me.
me. AAl
23||
23 lot
lot of of business
business got
got done
done as as Vice
Vice President
President from from the
the residence.
residence.
2424 (| 1I mean,
mean, aa lot lot of of business
business got done.
got done. And And soso there
there waswas aa whole
whole
25|
25 —--- it
it was,was, it it was,
was, like,
like, aa machine,
machine, you you know.
know. I'dI'd --—-
shesReporting
Court
FREE STAs REPORTING,
STATE
Court Reporting
REPORTING, INC.
Transcription
INC.
Transcription
5.6.
D.C. aren 301-261-1505
Area 301-261-1902
—
DosHCHURataE2
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1]1 tos36:00.41
[0:36:00.4]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- leave

PRESIDENT BIDEN: desk
something onon thethe desk
leave something
that 1I was
3|3 that working out
was working of inin thethe office
out of Vice
office II setset upup inin thethe Vice
4 eesidentrs
4 President's ofeice,
office, they'd come
and they'd
and and clear
cone and out. And,
clear itit out. and,
55 you when II got
know, when
you know, got finished mean, itit was
-- II mean,
finished -- more
much more
was much
6| routine,
6 routine, because
because it was
it was allait inin one
one place.
place. There
ere were
were
7||
7 personnel
personnel on
on the
the ground like there
ground like there are
are now.
now. Not nearly
Not nearly asas
88 many,
many, but,
but, you know, and
you know, and so,
so, you
you know,
know, that's
that's all
all ---- I I mean,
mean,
9 o| thatrs
that's how
how ©I remember
remember it. it.
1010 ur.
MR. HOR: HUR: So So --
| un11 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: I'm sorzy, was
I'm sorry, last part,
was thethe last that's
part, sir,siz, that's
1212{| how
how youyou remember
remember 167 it? II just
ust want
want toto make
make sure
sure it'sit's picked
picked up.up.
113 PReSTOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIOGEN: Yeah.Yeah.
114 Wi.
MR. BAER: BAUER: Yes. Yes.
1s15 MR.
MR. HUR: HUR: Okay. Okay. So itit sounds
So sounds like like what
what youyou were
were
16||16 describing
describing 1sis that
that the system
the system ofof your
your staff
staf handling
handling
17||17 classified
classified matertal
material at the
at the Naval
Naval Observatory
Observatory was was similar
similar toto
16||
18 the vay
the that it
way that it vas was handled
handled in your West
in
your Wing office. which
West Wing office, which
19||19 10,
is, 1¢ if you
you were
were done done with with thethe classified,
classified, you you leftleft itit onon
20||
20 your
your desk,
desk, and and then then your your staff
staff would
would taketake itit and
and dispose
dispose ofof
21||21 it.
it. and
And 1I think
think 1'm hearing that
I'm hearing that this
this same
same thing
thing happened
happened
22||
22 wich
with respect
respect toto your workspace atat thethe Naval
your workspace Naval Observatory?
Observatory?
223 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Generically, yeah.
BIDEN: Generically, yeah. II hadhad twotwo
20||
24 desks.
desks. 1I had
had aa desk desk -- == II hadhad anan office
office that that II turned
turned oneone ofof
25|
25 the
the sons
rooms snco,
into, onan [NER usss , a© library,
Lier. andowtI ---
Court
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11 [0:37:19.0).00
to:37:18
22 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: -- there. And
desk there.
had aa desk
-- had And I'dI'd
3||
3 have meetings
have meetings there
there with —- I'd
with I'd call staff over
call staff there; we'd
over there; we'd
44|| meetings. .
have meetings
have even -- for
I'd even
I'd example, II remember
for example, because
remember because
5||
5 saw aa picture
1I saw picture recently, , that's
recently saw XiXi Jin
where II saw
that's where ping, II
Jin ping,
6||
6 had him at
had him at the Vice Presiden
the Vice residence. II had
President's t's residence. other
had other
1 7||
7 1eaders
leaders there.
there. So there
So there would occasionally be
would occasionally lunches
be lunches
8||
8 there,
there, kind of
that kina
that of thing.
thing.
99 So there
So there was more done
was more the VP's
done inin the residence than
VP's residence than
10||
10 clearly
clearly when II wasn't
when wasn't the Vice
the President, when
Vice President, was aa
when II was
11||
11 senator,
senator, when II was
or when
or was out office.
out ofof office.
] 1212 HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR:
MR. Okay. I'm not asas ---- II haven't
I'm not haven't had the
had the
13||
13 pleasure
pleasure of actually
of actually visiting the
visiting the Naval Observatory, but
Naval Observatory, but II
14||
14 just want to
just want to have better sense
have aa better where that
sense ofof where workspace
that workspace
15||
15 was.
was.
1616 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: Go look atat it.it.
Go look
17
17 MR. HOR:
MR. Was itit
HUR: Was SE
usss ?
1818 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yes. Yes.
19
19 MR. HOUR:
MR. HUR: Okay. Okay.
20
20 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: II mean, you've got
think you've
mean, II think got toto
21||
21 sense —-
have aa sense
have -- I1 mean,mean, that home used
that home Chief ofof
the Chief
used toto bebe the
22||
22 Operations' ns’ office
Naval Operatio
Naval office until we
until had toto throw
we had throw the governor
the governor
23||
23 of Maryland
of Maryland out of
out office ---- the
of office President. And
Vice President.
the Vice then
And then
24||
24 that's
that's when they took
when they took over the place
over the for the
place for President.
Vice President.
the Vice
25||
25 And that's
And that's why it's
why it's called the
called the Naval Observatory still.
Naval Observatory still.
Transcription tion
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o.c. Area 301-261-1902
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11] ros3e:38.0
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22 BRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And it's,·
BIDEN: And it's, it's
it's aa Victorian
Victorian home,
home,
33 ters
it's you know,
a,a, vou che
know, the usss You vi in,in
vo" walk
4 usss Left usss
I
5 There's a usss usss

I
66 air
all tne
the JERR
- ove that
are that they
they function,
function, where
where they
they make
make the
the
77 meats,
meals, and
and things
things 1ike that.
like that.
88 IS
To
To the
the usss And then
And then
i 9||9 there's
there's aa —- |B
usss and there's
and there's aa room
room
i 1010 that
that 1I turned
turned into
into aa_,[JR meaning
neantna where
where II would
would work
work
11||
11 when
when 1I was
was nome.
home.
1212 MR. HOR: And

MR. HUR: And you
you mentioned
mentioned aa second
second office.
office.
313 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Bedroom.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Bedroom. There
There was
was aa bedroom,
bedroom,
14||
14 and
and there
there was
was aa --
= there's
there's --—= those
those Victorian
victorian homes,
homes, youyou
15||
15 know
know how
how they
they have the --
have the usss
-- |]
«|
16
17
17 |] And And II put
put aa small
small desk
desk inin there
there soso II could
could
18||
18 work
work usss
EE when II wanted
when wanted toto work
work inin my
my pajamas,
pajamas, or,or.
1919 | you
you know
know —-
2020 WR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: IT see.
see.
221 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: That kind
BIDEN: That kind ofof thing.
thing.
22
22
23
23
224
MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So
PRESIDENT
was this
So was
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
MR. HOR: =
MR. HUR:
BIDEN:
this space
space inin your
just outside?
-- just outside?
In the-·
In the Ea -
your[Fussy oror ----
25
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: In the
In the -
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[0:39:53.4]
22 MR. HOR:
MR. HUR: It It was the [I IT see.
was inin the-? mac's
see. That's
3|3 netprur.
helpful.
44 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: My My wife did not
wife did like it.it.
mot like
5||5 (Laughter)
{Laughter)
66 HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR:
MR. Okay. And apologize ifif you've
And II apologize already
you've already
7]7 addressed
addressed this,
this, II just
just -- II can't
-- can't recall.
recall. Do Do you
you know
know where
where
8||
8 your
your stats
staff secured
secured classified
classified documents?
documents?
99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No No idea.
idea.
1010 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: At At thethe Naval
Naval Observatory?
Observatory?
111 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No. No.
1212 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: All All right.
right.
1313 PRESIDENT
don't know
know that
that they
they stored
stored
14||
14 anything
anything at
at the
the Naval
Naval Observatory.
Observatory. They may
They may have.
have.
1515 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: II see. see.
1616 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: In other
In other words,
words, ifif they
they came,
came,
17||
17 they'd
they'd pick
pick it it upup and take itit wherever
and take wherever theythey were,
were, youyou know,
know,
16||
18 back to
back to thethe office
office in the West
in the Wing. Or
West Wing. take --—- II
they'd take
Or they'd
19||
19 don't
don't know
know where
where they they tooktook it.it.
2020 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: II see. see.
2121 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: But But they
they didn't
didn't leave
leave itit there.
there.
22
22 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay. Okay. So So II think
think implicit
implicit inin that
that isis
23||
23 you
you didn't
didn't have
have an understanding ---- oror you
an understanding you never
never directed
directed
24||
24 your
your staff,
staff, hey,
hey, II want want you to keep
you to keep this
this classified
classified inin aa
25||
25 safe
safe here
here at
at the Naval Observatory?
the Naval Observatory?
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22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: No. No.
33 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Okay.Okay. One One ofof the things we've
the things learned
we've learned
||
4 by
by speaking
speaking to
to other members ofof your
other members your staff
staff when
when youyou were
were
5||
5 vice
Vice President
President is that folks
is that folks inin the the ---- inin your
your national
national
6|6 security
security staff
staff actually
actually kept track
kept track ofof classified
classified binders
binders
7|7 that
that had had been
been provided
provided to you,
to you, andand they
they tried
tried toto track
track --
88 this
this one's
one's been
been returned,
returned, but this
but this oneone hashes not.
not. Let's
Let's trytry
9||
9 toto find
find thethe onesones that that have
have not.mot. Do Do you
you recall
recall youryour staff
staff --—-
1010 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: II don't don't everever recall
recall them
them telling
telling
i 11||
11 me
me they
they were
were looking
looking for
for aa binder
binder that that II hadhad that
that they
they
12||
12 couldn't
couldn't find.
find. II don't
don't ever recall
ever recall that.
that.
1313 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay.Okay.
1414 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ItIt could could havehave happened,
happened, but but I I
15||
15 don't
don't recall
recall it.
it.
1616 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.Okay. And II just
And just want
want toto make
make suresure that
that
1717 I'm
I'm understanding
understanding you clearly
you clearly there.
there. Do Do you
you recall
recall youryour
16||
18 stats
staff coming directly
ever coming
ever directly to you and
to you and saying, can't
sir. wewe can't
saving. sir,
19||
19 find
find Binder
Binder x, X, or Binder Y?
or Binder ¥2 Do Do you
you know
know where
where itit is?is?
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: EIDEN: II don't
don't recall.
recall. II didn't
didn't saysay itit
21|21 didn't
didn't happen,
happen, but
but II can't
can't recall
recall that.that.
2222 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: All All right.
right. Anything
Anything else else onon that
that before
before
23||
23 1I move
move on? on?
224 MR.
MR. KRICKEAUM:
KRICKBAUM: I1 had had aa slightly
slightly unrelated
unrelated
25||
25 question,
question, Mr.
Mr. President,
President, but itit isis something
but something you you ----
CourtReporting.
Court Reporting Tzenséription
Transcription
5.01 Area 301-561-3505
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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22 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- mentioned

MR. KRICKBAUM: just aa minute
mentioned just ago.
minute ago.
3|3 vou that sometimes
said that
You said sometimes Jake you were
think you
Jake --~- II think talking
were talking
4||
4 about
about dakeJake surdivan
Sullivan —-
s5 PRESIDENT
BIDEN: Yeah.
66 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: -- II think
KRICKBAUM: -- think you
you were
were talking
talking about
about
7||7 today
today --
-- will
will write
write you aa memo,
you memo, and
and 99
99 percent
percent ofof itit isis not
not
o| crassicicd,
8 classified, but ne'1n still
but he'll still mark
mark itit asas "Eyes
"Eyes Only."
only."
s9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: OrOr "Sensitive."
PRESIDENT BIDEN: "Sensitive."
1010 MR.
MR. KRICKEAUM: Yeah. We've
KRICKBAUM: Yeah. We've beenbeen trying
trying toto
11||
11 understand
understand "yes
"Eyes only,"
Only," and what
and what that
that means.
means. IsIs that,
that, isis
i 12
12 that
that aa --
-- is
is that
that used as
used as aa classification
classification marking?
marking?
113 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: II would
would like
like toto avoid
avoid having
having thethe
14]14 president
President address
address the legal
the legal requirements
requirements forfor classification.
classification.
15||15 1I think
think it's
it's clear
clear he's relied
he's relied onon staff
staff forfor that.
that.
16
16 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: My question
KRICKBAUM: My question II think
think isis different,
different,
17||
17 which
which is
is just,
just, what
what do you understand
do you understand "Eyes
"Eyes Only"
Only" toto refer
refer
10]18 tor
to?
119 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Means

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Means I'mI'm writing
writing this this forfor you.
you.
20||20 ItIt could
could be be eyes only. II don't
eyes only. don't even
even want want thethe President
President oror
21|
21 the
the secretary
Secretary of
of State
State or anyone.
or anyone. But But thisthis is,is, you
you know
know --—-
222 For
For example,
example, II often
often hadhad disagreements
disagreements onon policy policy
23||
23 matters
matters with
with some
some of
of thethe foreign
foreign policy
policy team team that
that --—- really
really
24||
24 good
good people
people that
that Barack
Barack had. had. II think
think it'sit's fairfair toto say
say
25||
25 Barack
Barack relied
relied on
on me
me to to do a lot of
do a lot of foreign
foreign policy,
policy,
Erez Reporting.
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11 [0:43:19.7)
[0:43:19.7]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- because that's one of the
3 reasons he asked me to be Vice President, the chairman of the
4 committee, and all that. But if my team thought someone else
5 in the administration was exaggerating, or making a mistake,
6 or wanting to, you know, send more troops into Iraq - I'm
7||
7 making
making this
this up
up -- and
and II didn't
didn't want
want to.
to. II might
might put
put "Eyes
"Eyes|
8||
8 only,"
Only," like,
like, you know, this
you know, this is
is not
not ---- this
this isis ---- we're
we're having
having
9(|
9 aa fight
fight with
with Charlie
Charlie Schmedlap,
Schmedlap, in the
in the administration
administration about
about
10 what we do. The President's going to have to make a decision
11 on this. But the -- anything that was marked "Classified"
12 with those markers, I never ever remember doing anything other
i 13||
13 than,
than, being
being fastidious
fastidious about where
about where itit went,
went, how
how itit got
got handled,
handled,
14 when it got back to whoever gave it to me.
15 MR. BAUER: And when you say, with those markings,
16||
16 just
just for
for the
the record,
record, if II may,
if may, sir
sir —-
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Do we have a copy of any of that
18 stuff?
19 MR. BAUER: Yes. You mean the colored borders?
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, the borders?
21 MR. KRICKBAUM: Yes.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Because that's usually what they
23 put in front of a book -- if they give a binder, they'll
24 have a something on the -- you have there written,
25 President Biden, Binder 1. They have this -- they'd --

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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1 [0:44:47.7]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- slide in this sheet that
3 says, "Top Secret," or slide in a sheet that says,
4 "Classified," you know. And it's usually and it's easily
5 marked, you know, it's a different color.
66 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: And that's
KRICKBAUM: And that's helpful.
helpful. We know
We know the
the
7||
7 cover
cover sheets
sheets that
that you're talking
you're talking about.
about.
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah.
9 MR. KRICKBAUM: In your understanding, if
10 something is marked "Eyes Only," does that mean that it's
11 being treated as classified, or does it not mean that?
12 MR. BAUER: I'm sorry, what's the question again,
13 Marc?
1
14 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah.
KRICKBAUM: Yeah.
15
15 BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: If it's
If it's marked
marked "Eyes
"Eyes Only,"
Only," does
does
16 that mean it's classified or not?
17 MR. KRICKBAUM: In your
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The answer
19 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- in your understanding.
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The answer is, I'm not sure.
21 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay.
22 MR. BAUER: And just a general rule, I do want to
23 not interrupt the flow of the questioning. I really don't
24 want the President to be in a position where he's addressing
25 specific questions about the classification system --

court Reporting Transcription
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er 39 5
11 [0:45:35.7)
[0:45:35.7]
22 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: -- distinctions among
~- distinctions classification
among classification
3|
3 categorses,
categories, and unatever,
snc whatever, for purposes
for interview.
purposes ofof thistis interview.
.
4 MA.
MR. KRICKENMN:
KRICKBAUM: II just Just mean
mean toto bebe asking
asking about
about
s|5 what
what you you undexstand
understand those
those words toto mean,
words mean, "Eyes
"Eves Only."
only.
6|
6 Because it's
Because it's not omilter with.
that wewe areaxe familiar
phrase that
not aa phrase with. So30
2]|
7 verze
we're trying
trying toto understana
understand how
how
.
8 SRESIOENT BIDEN: Right.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Right. That's
That's why why II think
think itit
5|
9 was
was matniy,
mainly, 100k,
look, keep this quiet,
keep this quiet, because
because youyou don't
donrt want
want
10]|10 this
this gutting
getting around
around trade
inside the administration.
the acmtntecration. Notmot
11]11 ctassisted,
classified, you
you done
don't vant —
want
} 1212 For
For example,
example, II had
had real
real strong
strong disagreements
disagreements onon aa
: 13]|13 couple
couple of
of policy
policy matters that
matters that were
were consequential
consequential relating
relating toto
14]14 the
the a1tocatson
allocation ofof forces.
forces. And soso there
And there were
were some
sone really
xeatly
15]|15 ston
bright gure
guys tn
in the
the administration
administration who II strongly
who strongly disagreed
disagreed
i 16
16 with on
with on something.
something. So,
So, it
it might
might say,
say, "Eyes
"Eyes Only,"
Only," like,
like,
! 17]17 Joe,
Joe, this
this is
is what
what you asked for,
you asked for, .but
but just
just understand.
understand.
118 But I A didn't -- it wasn't "Eyes Only" very often.
15]19 Tm
I'm trying
trying coto think
think now often.
how often. Maybe
ayse it'sit's --—- I© can't
can't
20|
20 ememser.
remember.
a21 wn.
MR. ncn:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. ores.
2222 oe
MR. wine
HUR: Good?Sony
223 ite
MR. AESHTOIES
KRICKBAUM: Yeah. Y550e
"24 We.
MR. HRHUR: iy. Okay. WL right.
All sgh. SoSo we've
verve talked
alien about
sous
25||
25 your
your nest
West ming
Wing office,
office, werve talked
we've talked about
about thethe Naval
Navel --—
co ae sma ssroxan, me,
§ pring, anes
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1 (0:46:41.8]
2 MR. HUR: -- Observatory. And now I have a
3 similar set of questions with respect to the lake house in
4 Wilmington·. So, when you were serving as Vice President,
5 did you have -- did you bring classified material with you
6 from the West Wing or the Naval Observatory to the lake
7 house?
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Occasionally, because I did a
9 lot of business from there. If you're in there for 99
10 hours, or whatever the hell you were, with 375 people, or
11 whatever the number was -- I'm teasing you.
12 (Laughter)
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You left everything in place. I
14 just hope you didn't find any risque pictures of my wife in
15 a bathing suit. Which you probably did. She's beautiful.
16 But all kidding aside, I have a library, and the
17|| library
17 library has
has aa ---- two filing cabinets
two filing cabinets in
in it,
it, and
and itit has
has built
built|
18 into the walls -- when I built that home, built into the
19 walls, a space fqr a copy machine, for a -- what do you call
20 it, when they send these --
21 MR. SISKEL: Fax machine.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Fax machine. I have shelves
23 that I have, I have binders like this in it that I put
24 together that aren't classified. They're about speeches
25 that I made on this matter, speeches I made on that matter.

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 [0:48:05.3]
[0:48:05.3]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I just warn you all, never make
3 one great eulogy, because you get asked to do everybody's
4 eulogy.
55 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You think I'm kidding? I'm not.
7|
7 How
Howmany
many people
people you know did
you know did --
-- eulogize
eulogize Teddy
Teddy and
and Strom
Strom
8 Thurmond? You know. Anyway, all kidding aside.
9 So I have things that I like to get my hands on so
10 I don't repeat myself, you know, or that I want to get some
11 ideas. And but they're not classified that are sitting
J 12
12 up
up there.
there.
13 I'm sure -- well, I'm not sure, actually. Anyway.
14 So there's that room, which is a formal library. You've
15 seen pictures of it. You've been in it, I assume. And it
16 also has a filing cabinet there, that can be locked, next to
17 the desk. And the drawers to the desk can be locked as
18 well. It's a -- and it's --
19 What I -- what you're able to do is an outgoing
20 senator is able to purchase his desk if he wants to. So I
21 purchased my desk for posterity's sake. And you can
22 purchase, when you leave the Cabinet, when you leave the
23 Senate, the vice presidency, or presidency, you can purchase
24 those chairs for $6 million.
I
25 (Laughter)
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1 [0:49:28.3)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You know -- I purchased that.
3 And you're able to purchase -- or I was given some
4 (indiscernible 0:49:33.1) Teddy Kennedy. My chair I had in
5 the Senate, all the years I had -- so I have -- there --
66 that
that chair
chair is
is in that library
in that library as
as well.
well.
77 So
so --
-- and then what
and then what II have
have isis up
up on
on the
the ---- II built
built
8 that house, usss
' 99 |] so
so the
the sun
sun would
would always
always shine.
shine.
10 I mean, I'm a frustrated architect, and if you went through,
11 you probably saw all those significant number of house plans
12 that I've drawn -- have drawn. And as a matter of fact, in
13 order to try to convince me not to run for the Senate for
14 the 19th time, my wife said, look, you don't run, I'll pay
15 for architectural school for you.
16
16 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm deadly earnest, not a joke.
18||
18 Any
Any rate,
rate, so
so what
what II had
had was,
was, II had
had aa --—- usss
|
19
=|
20
21
21 | , II can't
can't remember
remember exactly.
exactly. And II
And
22||
22 built
built that
that for two reasons,
for two [SB
reasons, usss My dad
My dad was
was
23 getting ill, and I did not want he and mom to be living
24 alone. Although I commuted every day -- they lived not far
25 from me, along with .the {indiscernible ·o:51:11.7). Anyway.
CourtReporting Transéription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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i 11 [0:51:16.2)
[0:51:16.2]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: So I built -- when I built the
3||
3 nouse,
house, II built
built it,
it, and had
and had cut
cut out
out -- usss
4 looks out on -- we call it a lake, but it's a 10-acre pond
55| someone
someone eice
else had busic. And
had built. and there's
there's a-·
+ JER You
You go.
9°
66 |B, and there's aa pool
and there's pool table
table and
and aa couch,
couch, and
and then
then aa
7 big fireplace, and usss
' a
88 usss as well as
as well as usss
SE And then-
And chen[RN
99 |B
_, it's
it's aa rectangle
rectangle about
about usss where
where
10 usss , and there's a usss
11||
11 and
and you
you usss and ---- because
and because II wanted
wanted my
my
12
12 parents
parents to
to be able to live
able to live there
there and
and have
have the
the privacy
privacy of
of
13||
13 having
having aa usss as well.
as well. And then
And then usss
|——
14
15
15 And
And |
so in
so in usss
ssh, there
there are
are two
two file
file
16 cabinets that were attractive that I had when I was in
17 either the home I bought furniture for the home on Chain
18 Bridge Road, or so there are two big (indiscernible
19 0:52:28.2) that big, and were two double file drawers, each
20 of them in the corners. So there are files down there in
21 that, in that -- then -- so we call that the -- you wanna
22||
22 call
|
call it
it the
the usss
ssh whatever you
, whatever you
23||
23 want
want to
to call
call it.
it. You go
You go usss
SE and you're
, and you're inin
24 usss The whole usss is a
25||
25 beautiful
beautiful - which cost
which me more
cost me more than
than the
the whole
whole house
house --—-
Court
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44
11 to:s2:55.9
[0:52:55.9] :
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- literal~,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: handmade
had itit handmade
literally, had
3||
3 because
because II made the mistake
made the mistake of renting aa place
of renting had aa
that had
place that
4|4 magnificent
magnificent-· ES Anyway.
Anyway.
55 And then you

And then go
you go usss to|=
to usss B And
And
|eB
6|6 the
the usss , II have
have aa - where II took
where took
7|7 the
the desk
desk II had
had as as aa lawyer.
lawyer. The The first
first big big case
case II won,
won, II
6|8 went
went out out and
and bought
bought a beautiful desk
a beautiful desk and
and credenza.
credenza. You You guys
guys
9||
9 may
may have
have done
done something
something similar. And
similar. And II have
have that
that inin there,
there,
10||
10 aa couch
couch and and book
book shelving
shelving and aa television
and television inin there.
there. And And
11||
11 there
there is is aa file
file cabinet
cabinet in there,
in there, plus
plus the the file
file cabinets
cabinets onon
1212|| the
the credenza
credenza behind
behind that open
that open with
with two two big
big file
file drawers.
drawers.
13||
13 And
And there's
there's file
file drawers
drawers in my
in my ---- onon the
the desk.
desk. And And soso
14||
14 there's
there's other
other —-
15
15 And
And then,
then, as things piled
as things piled up,
up, there
there was
was --—- -
16
16 |B I wanted to have
wanted to have access
access for
for usss
17
17 |], to
to be
be able
able toto come
come live
live with
with me
me ifif they
they
1818|| wanted
wanted to,
to, or
or be
be with me. And
with me. And what
what II did,
did, II made
made sure
sure II putput
IE
19
19 usss It's aa ---- so
It's so you
you wouldn't
wouldn't think
think
20||
20 you're
you're walking
walking in
in usss
21 So you usss
=|
22
23 And there is a big
24||
24 television.
television. And below the
And below the television,
television, there there are
are filing
filing
25||
25 cabinets,
cabinets, two
two long filing cabinets,
long filing cabinets, that the
that the television
television --
FREE STATE REPORTING,
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Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
D.C. Area 301-261-1502
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Dos HC HURTS
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000076
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or 45 4s
11 (0:54:31.5)
[0:54:31.5)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: sits on. And so -- and then
3 usss , and there's usss
44 lr straight and a a
ahead, and
straight ahead,
s|5 ER
-· Ar
And oo
so ©I cane
can't think ofof what
think what else.
else. But
Buc itit piled
piled
66 up
up there.
there. As FBI can
As FBI tell you,
can tell you, they
they were
were up
up there.
there.
’7 I alsoalso had, because 1'n a Frustrated architect, ny

had, because I'm a frustrated architect, my
I8 gift was a drafting board that I got for Christmas a long
of emo
9 time
10
10 WR. WOR: I'm sorsy, draeing what, sir?
MR. HUR: I'm sorry, drafting what, sir?
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: A drafting board. You know, you
wo ae
12 sit --
13 A MR. HUR: Board.
i"14 engTomNT BIE: Board. You sit and drat

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Board. You sit and draft
15| assigns. and so 1 nave more stute stacked up there now.

15 designs. And so I have more stuff stacked up there now.
| 16||
16 And
And what
what happens
happens is, as
is, as Vice
Vice President,
President, and
and asas President,
President, aa
17] shotoprapher takes hundreds of pictures of you. ana 1 you
17 photographer takes hundreds of pictures of you. And if you
18 -- on the way out, just so you know what we're talking
15 abot, you got to wax then by Just so they know snat 1m

19 about, you got to walk them by just so they know what I'm
20] cating about — ts — these ave pictures that axe put on

20 talking about -- is -- there are pictures that are put on
21|| what kind of bossa to thet cutlets anyuay

21 what kind of board is that called? Anyway
222 A MR. SISKEL: Poster board.
"23 SREITEE BION: 5 poster boscd ox a victor.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: A poster board or a sticker.
24
24 MR. SISKEL:
MR. SISKEL: Yeah.
Yeah. :
»25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And theyre about Shree fost =

PRESIDENT BIDEN: And they're about three feet --
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46
11 [0:55:44.6)
[0:55:44.6)
2 PRESIDEijT BIDEN: by two feet, and there's
3 great pictures of all kinds of different things. And so I
4 have them hanging on the walls all over the downstairs, the
5 television room, and some in the library, because they --
66 you
you know,
know, they
they tell
tell stories like
stories like II --
77 You
You know,
know, II went
went to
to Mongolia
Mongolia and,
and, and great
and great
8 pictures. I, unfortunately, embarrassed the hell out of the
9 leader of Mongolia. They were showing -- they were doing a -
10 - what they would do at the time of the invasion of the Mongols
! 11
11 into
into Europe
Europe in the 14
in the -- in
14 -- in the
the 800s.
800s. And they
And they ---- and
and then
then|
12 show what a normal day was, or how they, how they bivouac. And
13 so we're out in the middle of nowhere and they're looking up
: 14||
14 on
on the
the hill
hill and
and we
we see this tiny
see this tiny line.
line. You know,
You know,
15
15 it's
it's aa 20-mile
20-mile horse
horse race
race with all these
with all these kids
kids under
under the
the age
age
16 of 16 on bareback racing to come down. And you know, there
17 are sumo wrestlers doin' everything they do.
18 And so they walked over and they had a target with
19 bales of hay a hundred yards away, and these guerillas were,
20 you know, taking shots. And I think -- I don't know if it
21
21 was to
was to embarrass
embarrass me or to make
or to make aa point,
point, but
but II get
get handed
handed the
the
22 bow and arrow. I'm not a bad archer. But (indiscernible
23 0:57:12.9) where I can pull it back, so I -- and pure luck,
24 I hit the goddamn target.
25 (Laughter)
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11 [0:57:20.9]
[0:57:20.9]
2
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, really did.
No, IT really Bales ofof hayhay
did. Bales
3|
3 that
that wese,
were, 14x6.
like, 2020 bales
bates ofof hay
nay with
with aa bigbig target
target inin thethe
¢|
4 miaste
middle of of tne
the natebale of of nay.
hay. Ana sosozI didn't
And asdnre mean
mean anything
snyehing byby
s|
5 15.
it. 1I turned
turned toto thethe prine minister and
prime minister and handed
handed itit toto him
hin andana
6|
6 the
the poor
poor son-of-a-bitch
son-of-a-bitch coutdnrt pull
couldn't pil itit back.
back. I1 was,
was, II wasvas
1]
7 river
like, an,
oh, con.
God.
88 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
9 5 SRESIDIE S10EN: Anyway,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Amway, so0 IT have
have pictures
piotuzes like,
2k,
010 like that, you know, that are up against the wall, and down
1111 | nore
here shoyrse
they're sis
all overover intn my
ny --== in15 the,
whe, intn thethe West
west Wing.
wing.
12||12 anguay,
Anyway, aa 10%lot of of those pictures that
those pictures that youyou remember
remember seeing
sesng
53]13 von
them pies
piled vpup = I3 rw Shore must
know there sss beoe 5050 ofof them.
vem. IT don't
wens
16]14 know
know what
what co to do wich them,
do with them, you
you know.
know. SoSo there's
there's aa lotlot ofof
I15 stuff in that I attic that is material that -- and some of it
16
16 is,
is, you -- I think
you know -- think some of it
some of it is
is notebooks
notebocks of
of mine.
mine.
17]17 2
I'm notnot sures
sure, but anyway, that's
but anyway, that's thethe totality
totaiisy ofof where
hese
16{|
18 things
things woud
would be be.
ws19 UR.
MR. OR: Understood. That
HUR: Understood. That was
was very
very helpful.
helpful. Wefe
20|
20 nave
have somesome photossaphs
photographs maybe
maybe toto show
show you,
you, butbut you
you have
have --—-
BO21 appear to have a photographic understanding ——
and, and recall
22|
22 ofof tne
the rouse.
house.
223 SRUSIORNE SIE: No,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: We. and
avd they
aay busted
busted their
Shes assss
24||
24 cor
for three
three yeses
years to build
to busta thethe house
house (indiscernible
(indiscernible 0:58:36.9)
0:58:36.5)
225 UR.
MR. UR:
HUR: AndAna there
there areare parts
parts ofof what
vat youyou justjust --
CIE
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11 10:58:41.6)
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22 MR. HUR: -- helpfully

MR. HOR: shared with
helpfully shared that I'dI'd
with usus that
3|3 tie
like to
to circie
circle back
back on
on —-
44 MR.
MR. BAUBR: Can we
BAUER: Can we --—- well,
well, here's
here's aa question
question II
s||
5 ave
have —-
--
c6 wR. HOR: Yes.

MR. HUR: ves
77 UR. BAUER: == for
MR. BAUER: for you,
you, Rob.
Rob.
s8 WR. BOR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes.
99 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: was just
I was just mindful,
mindful, I'm
I'm getting
getting the
the 1-
1-
10||
10 hour
hour mark.
mark. I'm
I'm wondering
wondering if we
if we could
could take
take --—- ifif it'sit's okay
okay
1111 with
with you,
you, wr. president, isis itit allail right
Mr. President, rignt --
1212 RESIDENT BIDEN: I'm
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm okay
okay toto keep
keep going.
going.
113 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: If If we
we could
could take
take 1010 --= just
just aa 10- 10-
14||
14 minute
minute break
break or or aa S-minute
5-minute break, would
break, would that
that bebe okay?
okay?
115 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: That would --—- ifif you
That would you allall would
ould like like toto
16||
16 Keep
keep going,
going, TI can
can keep
keep going,
going, but ifif you
but you allall would
would like like toto
. 17]|17 take
take aa break,
break, that's also
that's also great.
great.
! 18
18 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: II think
think on
on the
the hour
hour mark,
mark, just
just toto take
take
19||
19 at
at 1east
least 55 minutes
minutes (indiscernible
(indiscernible 0:59:08.8). Let's
0:59:08.8). Let's dodo
20||20 that.
that.
221 WR. KOR: Okay.

MR. HUR: Okay.
2222 MR BAUER: And
MR BAUER: And wewe have
have aa work
work room room forfor you
you here,
here,
23||
23 ana
and werawe'll --
2424 IR.
MR. BUR: Sounds good.
HUR: Sounds good.
2525 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- -- keep
keep itit really
really short.short.
Coury ——
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22 NA————— MR. KRICKBAUM: Thank you.
33 MR. HUR:
MR. Okay.
HUR: Okay. So back here
be 9ack
So be minutes?
here inin 55 minutes?
]4 We. BaUER: Yeah, be back here in 8 minutes.
MR. BAUER: Yeah, be back here in 5 minutes.
s5 we. oR: Otay.

MR. HUR: Okay.
66 MR. BRUER:
MR. BAUER: That's perfect.
That's perfect.
77 SA| >> H Okay.

s
8 exesom prom: Careful Leaving yous beck.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Careful leaving your book.
99 SA EE The time is approximately 1:15.

10 weree suing on brea.
10 We're going on break.
u
11 (na Track 231008_1215)
{End Track 231008_1215)
12
12 (Begin
{Begin Track 231008_1324)
Track 231008_1324)
13
13 | >>
sa
SA It 1:24.
It isis 1:24. We're from
back from
We're back
1e| brea.
14 break.
1
15 WR. HOUR: ALL right. We're back fron break.
MR. HUR: All right. We're back from break.
16) sveryons that vas in the room is back in the zoom nov.
16 Everyone that was in the room is back in the room now.
w
17 So 11d Like to start on a different tople, which
So I'd like to start on a different topic, which
18 is questions about the process of actually moving out of
16|| your west ning ofsice, moving out of the Naval Observatory,
19 your West Wing office, moving out of the Naval Observatory,
20 | at the end of your vice presidency. okay?

20 at the end of your vice presidency. Okay?
2
22 WR. HOR: So let's start with the fest Wing
MR. HUR: So let's start with the West Wing
23] oteice. ae the ond of your vice presidency, as you vese

23 office. At the end of your vice presidency, as you were
20|| preparing to teave tht office, what Files or documents do

24 preparing to leave that office, what files or documents do
25| you recall there actualy being in your West Wing office?
25 you recall there actually being in your West Wing office?
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>2 PRESIOENT BIDEN: II don't

PRESIDENT BIDEN: have any
don't have idea.
any idea.
33 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
‘4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II mean,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: mean, I'm
I'm trying
trying toto think.
think. II
sf5 =-- xI done
don't know.
know.
‘6 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. Who was
Who was inin charge
charge ofof thethe process
process
7||
7 of
of packing
packing up
up your materials in
your materials in --
s8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You
PRESIDENT EIDEN: You know,
know, I'm
I'm trying
trying toto think.
think.
s9 vas
was my
my main person. She
main person. She was
wes my
my executive
ewecutive
10||
10 ‘secretary.
secretary. And
And so
so she would --=~ people
she would people would
would gogo through
through herher
11[|11 toto get
get things.
things. But you mentioned
But you mentioned another
another woman
woman oror ----
1212 we
MR. von:
HUR: |.' Michele rele Smith,swith, -
=|13
114 smestone soe: [ER I© think_
PRESIDENT EIDEN: chi -
15|
15 ate
did DOJ GI —- was ves she
she the
the one
one that
that was
was getting
geting
16|| material toto the university ofof Delaware
pelaware and
and --== inin other
other
I
16 material the University
17][17 words,
words, one one of of them
them focused
focused on taking
on taking the
the things
things that
that sheshe
16||
18 thought
thought that
that Delaware might want,
Delaware might want, oror that
that would
would gogo toto thethe ——
19||
19 whats
what's itit called?
called? You
You know, the federal
know, the federal government.
government.
2020 UR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: The The Archives.
Archives.
221 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The
PRESIDENT EIDEN: The Archives.
Archives. OrOF toto Delaware
Delaware
22||
22 archive
archive ==-- no.no. Yeah.
Yeah. or wherever
Or wherever itit would
would go.
go. AndAnd soso II
23|
23 enink
think - helped organize what
helped organize what she
she thought
thought they'd
they'd want,
want,
24||
24 and
and = -- because
because Delavare didn't
Delaware didn't want
want everything.
everything. II mean,mean, asas
25||
25 2,I, asas 1I recatr.
recall. so
So -- but I,1, I© think
-- but think they
they were
were —
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: --—- the

PRESIDENT BIDEN: the ones
ones --—- II don't
don't want
want toto
3|3 hot
hold them
them responsible
responsible or get
or them inin trouble,
get them trouble, butbut IT believe
believe
4|4 they
they weze
were the
the ones
ones who weze packing
who were packing upup --—- notnot --~- maybe
maybe they
they
5|
5 weren'e,
weren't, they
they probasty
probably nad guys
had guys come
come andand help
help and and pack
pack itit upup
6|6 and
and were
were deciding,
deciding, you know,
you know, where,
where, where
where things
things were
were going,
going,
77 to
to the
the best
best of
of my knowledge.
my knowledge.
.8 WR. HR: Okay.

MR. HUR: Okay. And II think
And think --—- II just
Just want
want toto
5|9 make
make sure
sure Tim
I'm clase
clear —- that
-- that I'm
1m understanding
understanding here.here. Was
was
10
10 there
there --
-- were there different
were there different people in
people in charge
charge of
of packing
packing up
up
11||
11 eseeerent
different types
types of
of —
--
212 [———
»13 WR. HOR: -- materials?

MR. HUR: materiale?
114 PRESTOENT BIDEN: No.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No. II didn't
didn't --—- IT just
just leftleft
15
15 that
that to
to the
the outer
outer office
office to decide
to decide who
who packed
packed what.
what.
16
16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. But some
But some materials
materials were
were going
going toto
17
17 the
the Delaware
Delaware archives,
archives, but they
but they didn't
didn't --
--
118 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: II assume,
assume. yes.
yes. II assume
assume they
they
1919 [| wore
were going
going —-- sone things were
some things were going
going toto thethe Delaware
Delavare
20||
20 axchives,
archives, and
and some things went
some things went toto -- 'cause
‘cause IT didn't
didn't direct
direct
21||
21 them
them there
there ~- went to the
went to the --—
222 WR.
MR. SAUER: National Archives,
BAUER: National Archives, toto thethe federal
federal
23|| government.
23 government.
224 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: National Archives,
BIDEN: National Archives, yes.yes.
I.
25 wm
MR. HUR: ony.
Okay.
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: The The federal government. And,
federal government. And, andand
33 some things
some things went to
went to the Center. This
Biden Center.
the Biden when I'm,
This isis when I'm, I'mI'm|
4|4 finishing
finishing up
up as as Vice President, right?
Vice President, right?
55 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes,Yes, sir. sir. Yes, Yes, sir.sir.
56 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah. So So anyway.
anyway.
77 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: AndAnd do do you
you recall
recall that that there
there were
were some
some
8||
8 things
things also
also that
that were going toto go
were going go toto your
your transition
transition office?
office?
°9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm sure
sure therethere probably
probably were.were.
10||
10 They
They decided
decided some
some ~~ -- II let them decide
let them decide where where things
things would
would
11||
11 go,
go, and,
and, and and thethe problem
problem -- -- mymy generic
generic problem
problem was was there
there was was
1212|| aa lot
lot of of stuff.
stuff. No,
No, II really
really mean it.it. Like,
mean Like, II don't
don't wantwant
13||
13 itit all
all at at my
my house.
house. II don't
don't wantwant all all thisthis -- youyou know,
know, it'sit's
1414|| not
not likelike there
there werewere things
things that ---- II mean,
that mean, like,
like, what
what dodo youyou
15||
15 do
do with
with all all thethe memorabilia?
memorabilia? I'm not
I'm not being
being facetious.
facetious. What What
16||
16 do
do youyou do do with
with those,
those, those statues,
those statues, what what dodo you
you dodo with
with
17||
17 those
those —- -- II mean,
mean, you you knowknow ---- soso II justjust leftleft itit toto them.
them.
1818 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: AndAnd when when youyou saysay you you left
left itit toto them,
them,
19||
19 the
the them
them --

PRESIDENT BIDEN: The front
front office.
office.
221 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- -- II wantwant toto bebe clearclear on on who
who thethe them
them
22|22 includes.
includes.
2323 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: And And I'm
I'm suresure that
that Steve
Steve
2424|| Ricchetts
Ricchetti was
was my my chief
chief of staff
of staff and and --
2525 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Um-hum,Um-hum, um-hum.
un-hum. He He was.
was.
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC
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22 BRESTOBNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And soso I'm sure itit was
I'm sure more,
vas more,
3||
3 more of,
more of, 1ike,
like, project with
aa project people who
with people who had with meme a=
been with
had been
44 20mg
long cine.
time. 1,I, 1,I, I1 assume.
assume.
55 WR. HOR: Okay.

MR. HUR: Okay.
©6 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Look,Look, one one ofof thethe things
things that
that I T
7|7 used
used to to get
get kidded about, they
kidded about, they did
did aa deal
deal inin thethe Congress
Congress
88 | and
and thethe senate
Senate when there was
when there was talking
talking about
about staffstaff andand staff
staff
9||
9 rotation,
rotation, and
and they concluded that
they concluded that the the majority
majority ofof mymy staffstaff
10||
10 nad been with
had been with me me for,
for, like, 2020 years.
like, years. ThereThere was continuity.
was continuity.
11||
11 People
People -- -- either
either IT was
was really
really easy
easy oror what
what II was was doing
doing was
was
12||
12 interesting. ng. But
interesti But -- — no,no, I'mI'm serious.
serious.
1313 MR.
MR. KOR:HUR: OF both.
Or both.
114 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Like,Like, Ted Ted Kaufman
Kaufman was was with
with meme
! 15||
15 for 35 years,|ERNE -- vou know. dust a lot of
1616 poopie. [NNNEGEENEN Peele ho were with me for the
17||
17 vast bulk
vast bulk of my career,
of my career, and who
and who II never
never had had toto explain
explain
16||
18 anything
anything to
to ater
after while. I'm
aa while. I'm not
not being facetious. Onon anan
being facetious.
1019 [| tssue,
issue, you
you know,
know, that
that -- follow
-- follow upup onon this.
this. Well,
Well, they
they —-
20||
20 you
you know,
know, they
they knewknew the background, they
the background, they ---- and
and I'mI'm notnot
2121 {| talking
talking foreign
foreign policy classified. I'm
policy oror classified. I'm just
just talking,
talking, youyou
22||
22 know,
know, howhow do do we prevent the
we prevent the auto
auto strike,
strike, you you know.
know. WhatWhat dodo
23||
23 do to
wewe do to deal
deal withwith -- == well,
weit, anyway.
anyway.
224 MR.
MR. BUR:
HUR: So So when
when itit comes
comes toto the the process
process ofof
25||
25 packing
packing up and
up and sending
sending your things from
your things from youryour West Wing --
West Wing
enue Reporting.
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FREE STATE REPORTING, INC,
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54
1 [0:06:12.0]
2 MR. HUR: -- office to various places, do you ever
3 recall having a meeting or a conversation with Mr. Ricchetti
4 or
5 or
7 MR. HUR: Okay. Just, it happened?

9 MR. HUR: Okay.
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's my recollection. Now,
11 maybe they had meetings and maybe they did ask me questions ..
12 I don't recall.
| 13
13 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay.
HUR: Okay. Anything else
Anything else on
on the
the West
West Wing
Wing
14 office? Okay.
15 So now let's talk about the Naval Observatory. So
16
16 you've
you've been
been living
living there
there for eight
for eight years.
years. So atat the
So the end
end ofof
17 your vice presidency, what kinds of papers or documents or
18 files were at the Naval Observatory as you were preparing to
19 leave and move out?
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, there were -- I'm trying
21 to think. A lot of my speeches, a lot of the initiatives
22 I've taken, a lot of -- there are probably some press
23 clippings, I'm guessing. I'm trying to think what else.
24 Photographs. I don't know.
25 MR. HUR: And where would those have been --

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11 (0:07:40.2]
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2 MR. HUR: -- within the Naval Observatory? You
3 mentioned a couple of work spaces earlier.
4 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Well, if you're talking about
5 anything that was a substantive matter, classified or
6 otherwise -- you know, the fight in the Judiciary Committee
7|7 over
over whether
whether or
or not
not -- II was
was the
the guy
guy who
who wrote
wrote the
the Violence
Violence
88 Against
Against Women
Women Act.
Act. It was
It was --
-- really
really meant
meant aa lot
lot toto me.
me. And
And
9 so they might find stuff on the Violence Against Women Act
10 in one section of a drawer or in the shelves of the library
11 or of the Naval Observatory.
12 Or issues, you know, relating to -- I know it's
13||
13 gonna
gonna sound
sound strange
strange to you
to you guys,
guys, but
but agriculture
agriculture isis aa $4$4
14
14 billion
billion industry,
industry, agriculture is
agriculture is aa $4
$4 billion
billion industry
industry inin
15
15 Delaware
Delaware and
and the
the Delmarva peninsula, and
Delmarva peninsula, and so
so ---- or,
or, you
you know,
know,
16
16 I'd
I'd have
have a lot
lot of
of political
political things that
things that ---- I,I, II don't
don't know
know
17
17 where
where they
they were, but II know
were, but know II had
had material
material that
that ---- where
where I,I,
18 you know -- like, there's a whole, whole bunch of stuff
19 around about how -- what made me run for President in the
! 20
20 first
first place,
place, and about how things
and about things were
were ---- you
you know,
know, I I mean,
mean,
21 for example, I, I was a -- I got a job with a -- I didn't
22 take law school very seriously, but I won the International
23 Tort Competition. I was in -- matter of fact, the first
24 time in tort class, we had a really difficult professor. I
25 mean, very well-known, Professor at Syracuse, and --
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- called onon me
—- hehe called you
me toto ---- you
3||3 know how
know they do
how they do in in lawlaw school, discuss aa case,
school, discuss know, inin
you know,
case, you
a|4 your
your firstfirst torts
torts class.
class. and II had
And had never
never read
read the
the case,
case, andand
s|5 1I stood
stood up up and
and 1I spoke
spoke for for 1010 minutes.
minutes. The The whole
whole class
class
6|6 stood
stood up, up, started
started clapping.
clapping.
(Laughter) )
7|| augnter
88 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And hehe said,
said, Mr.Mr. Biden,
Biden, you'll
you'll
9||
9 bebe aa nets
hell of of aa trial
trial lawyer.
lawyer. He said,
He said, not
notaa single
single thing
thing
20||
10 you
you —= -- hadhad to to dodo with
with that.that.
1|
11 (Laughter) )
taughten
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And ---- but
but atat any
any rate,
rate, soso ----
; 13||
13 but
but in in 1awlaw school,
school, II got
got in in law
law school,
school, andand II got,
got, believe
believe
14||
14 itit oror not,
not, aa job job offer
offer from prestigious law
some prestigious
from some law firms.
firms. II
15||
15 was
was not not suresure where
where II wantedwanted toto go,
go, out
out west
west and
and where
where --—- II
16||
16 wanted
wanted to to move
move to to Idaho,
Idaho, II thought,
thought, and and soso II was
was going
going toto gogo
: 1717|| out
out and
and interview
interview with Boise Cascade.
with Boise Cascade. That's
That's all
all I'd
I'd really
really
18
18 -- and
~-- but II took
-- but
and -- job with
took a job best-known trial
the best-known
with the firm inin
trial firm
19||
19 veraware
Delaware in in mostiy
mostly civil
civil defense
defense issues. And,
issues. And, and
and soso ---- and
and
20|
20 I remember
remember aa guy guy named[ERI
named - (Phonetic), aa brilliant
(phonetic), brillant guy guy
21||21 that
that wentwent to to Amherst
Amherst and Harvard and
and Harvard and saidsaid ---- when
when hehe was
was
22||
22 interviewing ing me
interview me said,
said, in those
in those days,
days, you you had
had toto --—= today
today you
you
23||
23 would
would be be killed.
killed. You
You hadhad to to put
put your protograph inin thethe
your photograph
24||
24 upper right-hand d corner
upper right-han corner when you're applying
when you're applying forfor aa job.
job. AndAna
25||
25 hehe looked
looked at at me
me and
and said,
said, IT assume
assume you're
you're expecting
expecting toto bebe --
Court
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2
2 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: hired onon your
BIDEN: --— hired looks.
your looks.
3| ccavgneen
3 (Laughter)
‘4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And

PRESIDENT BIDEN: And IT said
sald --—- andand IT thought
thought thethe
s| sob
5 job was
was over,
over, and
and 1I said,
sata, I© said,
said, well,
well, itit would
would improve
tmprove thethe
66 look
look of
of your
your firm.
firm.
7||7 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II mean,
mean, II was
was just
just ----
9 5 SoSo anyway,
anyway, to make
to make aa long
long story
story short,
short, they
they ended
ended
10||
10 upup offering
offering meme aa job.
Job. And and inin Delaware,
Delaware, itit hashas --— used
used toto have
have
12]11 ste
the somos
lowest puss pass sarerate 20 the
in vie country
comsey because
nesnune we're
vaze notwos bigig onun
1212 envonasging
encouraging 1emyers
lawyers so come
to cone and
ans play
pray intn Delaware.
vetamsre. It's26s a= very
very
13||13 tight
tight bar.
bar. and,
And, and
and so so what
what happened
happened waswas you
you take
take thethe bar,bar,
14||
14 you
you graduate,
graduate, and
and youyou havehave toto clerk
clerk forfor somebody
somebody forfor sixsix
15||
15 months.
months. (Indiscernisle
{Indiscernible 0:11:51.6). And
0:11:51.6). And they
they don't
don't give
give thethe
16||
16 bar
bar exam
exam untiluntil the middle ofof September.
the middle september. You You don't
don't getget your
your
17|
17 cosutts
results toto your
your -- —- forfor the
the barbar exam
exam until
until January.
ganusry. And, And, andand
18 so -- I -- but I got hired in the meantime by this firm
19||
19 appropriately
appropriately named Erickett, Ward,
named Prickett, werd, Burt
mure Sanders.
sanders. And, nd, andand
20|| tonake
20 tomake aa tonglong story
story not quite
not quite soso long,
long, II was
was sitting
sitting second
second
21||
21 chair
chair with
with the,
the, with the, with
with the, with thethe guy
guy who
who ranan thethe firm,
firm,
22|| erickets,
22 Prickett, ue.
Mr. Prickets,
Prickett, and there
and there was
vas aa young
young man
man whowho wewe were
were
23||
23
24||
24
25
representing,
representing,
(indiscernible
(indiscernible
25|| had
had to to urn
turn those
--
0:12:34.3)
0:12:34.3)
those ——
Ey
construction
we have
-- we have more
(phonetic)
(phonetic)
construction company,
getting
getting
company, youyou know,

more oiloil refineries
refineries than
know, I I
than anyany --—
-- and]
and

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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2
2 FRESIOENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- place other than
place other Houston
than inin Houston
33 in
in Delaware
Delaware and
and Pennsylvania,
Pennsylvania, (indiscernible 0:12:43.6)
(indiscernible 0:12:43.6) up
up
of tnin that
4 that area.
area.
55 And
And this poor kid
this poor kid is
is down
down aa hundred-foot
hundred-foot vessel,
vessel,
6| chinnoy,
6 chimney, sexaping
scraping the hydrogen
the hydrogen bubbles
bubbles offote ofof thethe inside.
inside.
7||
7 They
They were
were made
made to
to shut
shut the plant down
the plant down once
once every
every ----
88 whatever,
whatever, about
about eight
eight months or
months or six
six months
months or
or aa year,
year,
| whatever
9whatever stit ss.
is. And
And ho vas wearing
he was wearing thethe wrong
wrong pants,
pants, wrong
wrong
10
10 jeans,
jeans, and
and he
he --
-- aa spark caught fire
spark caught fire and
and got
got caught
caught inin the
the
11]11 contatnment
containment vessel
vessel and hehe lost
and lost part
past ofof hishis penis
penis andand oneone ofof
12]12 nis
his costicies
testicles and
and he ne was
was 2323 years
years old.
ota.
13 and
And I sat sat through
through the --= hishis presentation
the presentation with with
14]|14 the,
the, with
with thethe sontor,
senior, and wewe had
and had inin Delaware,
Delaware, which
which ists -- thethe
15
15 Dupont
Dupont family
family had no influence
had no influence of course
of course -- contributory
contributory
16]16 nestigence.
negligence. 1¢If you were slightly
you were s1ightly contributory
contebutory negligence,
nestigence,
17]17 you
you vere
were out.
out.
18 And so the senior partner turned to me and said,
15|
19 weit
write aa momo
memo for for tamorzow,
tomorrow, verze going
we're going toto makemake aa motion
motion toto
20||
20 atomtes
dismiss ator
after presenting
presenting this case.
this case. SoSo II did.aid. II wrote
wrote thisthis
21||21 memo.
memo. and And somson ofof aa bitch,
bitch, i& prevailed.
it prevailed. And And II looked
looked over
over
22|
22 atat that
that kid
kid and and nis
his wiewife homehome with
with twotwo little
Little kids,
Kids, andand I©
23]23 thought
thought son
son of of aa biten,
bitch, Tm intn thethe wrong
I'm wrong business,
business, I'mI'm notnot
20|
24 nade
made forfor ens.
this.
225 and
And 1I ~— there was
-- there was aa famous
famous club
club called
called thethe --—
Court Reporting Tranecription
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1 [0:13:59.0)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- Wilmington Club -- no blacks,
3 Catholics are allowed -- have been allowed to be members.
4 The DuPont family name. And we went to a place called the
5 Wilmington Club, and he thought he was doing he said,
6 take the lunch at Wilmington. I said -- the only time I
97 ever
ever lied
lied that
that II can remember looking
can remember looking somebody
somebody in
in the
the eye,
eye,
8 and I mean sincerely, I said, oh, my dad's coming in today,
9||9 1I was
was going
going to
to see
see -- okay.
-- okay. He didn't
He didn't give
give aa damn
damn where
where II
10 went. I walked across and walked through to the second --
11 the basement on a public building and walked in with a guy
12 named Frank and I said I want a job as a public defender.
13 He said, don't you work for Prickett. He said, he said, are
1
14 you
you okay,
okay, like
like what the hell's
what the hell's the
the matter
matter with
with you.
you. II quit
quit
15||
15 and
and became
became aa public
public defender.
defender.
16 The process of that was that's what got me -- I
17 had been involved in the civil rights movement. That got me
18 deeply involved in trying to reform the Democratic Party,
19 which was a southern Democratic Party. We were a slave
20 state by law. We were one of the border states so we
21 couldn't figure -- anyway, but the Democratic Party was a
22 conservative party in Delaware. The DuPont family ran the
23 Republican Party, but they were like Rockefeller Republicans
24 at the time. And so I got involved with a group of people
25 trying to reform the Democratic Party.

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2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And the whole point of telling
3 you all this is I had a lot of material that I kept notes on
4 and, and when that where as I was taking on the
5 Democratic Party. And they came to me and asked me to
66 this
this group,
group, this
this new Democratic coalition
new Democratic coalition ---- II had,
had, inin the
the
7||
7 meantime,
meantime, it's
it's two
two years
years down the
down the road,
road, II was
was 26
26 years
years old,
old,
8 27. And I went to work part time for a criminal defense
99 firm
firm mainly,
mainly, aa real
real estate --
estate -- there
there were
were five
five people.
people. And
And
10 so I was no longer a public defender because I couldn't be a
11 public defender and work for that firm.
12 And one thing led to another and I joined this
13 group to try to reform the party. And they came to me about
14 and I was making the case we've just got to get more
15 candidates to run, to we're not, we're not represented.
16 And the southern part of the state of Delaware will talk at
17 you like this, for real, you go down -- you think I'm
18
18 joking,
joking, I'm not
I'm not joking.
joking. "Damn, boy, II don't
"Damn, boy, with a a
agree with
don't agree
19 damn thing you say," but he said, "I know where you stand,
20 know where you stand." That's how they talk. And it was
21 solidly democrat, southern democrat. We were the only state
22 in the nation occupied by the military for 10 months with
23 drawn bayonets at every corner when Dr. King was
24 assassinated, and that's really what got me going.
25 Long
i er
25 Long story,
story, and I'll
and I'll end,
end, because
because itit relates
relates --
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- to
-- some of
maybe some
to maybe other
the other
of the
3| things
3 things vou
you may
may askask about,
about, is that
is that I1 had
had aa lotlot ofof material
materiel
of| that
4 that 1I ata
did recent.
recent. nen you're
When you're thethe youngest
youngest guy guy intn thethe
5I room, you get to turn the lights on and off. And so I, I
6|6 amassed
amassed aa tot
lot of materia making
of material making thethe case
case why
why thethe party
party hadhad
7|7 to
to change
change and,
and, and
and they -- and
they -- and itit ended
ended up
up that
that about
about 10
10
6] months
8 months tn, in, the
the group
group exon
from thetre area
ares where
where II lived
Lived came
came toto meme
o| ant
9 and sate
said shey
they wanted
wanted meme to to run
run forfor thethe state
state senate.
senate. I1
10||10 said,
said, no,
no, no,
no, no,
no, TI cane
can't do that.
do that. I1 just Just — I'mTm thinking
thinking
11||
11 ofof sterting
starting mymy om 1av firm
own law cin and
and it's12's going
gotng toto --— no,no, I1 can't
can't
12)|12 dodo thar.
that. ana
And because
because they meet
they meet inin Dover
Dover andand dah,
dah, dah,dah, dah.
dah.
13
13 And
And then
then next
next thing
thing that happened
that happened was
was II came
came back
back
14||
14 about
about thee
three weeks
weeks later.
later. They said
They satd wewe want
vant --= toto thethe office
office
15||
15 2I uss
was in in atat the
the time.
time. I1 had
had now
now started
started mymy own
on office.
office. And ant
16]|16 1I dtdnre
didn't realize
realize no one
no one mymy age
age ever
ever started
started hishis own
own lawlaw
17||
17 firm.
firm. II hired
hired two
two lawyers.
lawyers. II had
had no
no freaking
freaking money.
money. But II
But
10||
18 nized
hired shemthem andand pete them more
paid them more than
than I© was
wes going to make, and
going to make, and
1619 1I started
started ths
this firm.
firm. and there — I1 remember
And there remember standing
standing
20|
20 Looking
looking out
out over the public
over the public and
and they
they said
said how
how about
about running
running
21 for the county council. I said, no, no, I can't go down.
22 He said, they meet right across the street there only twice
23
23 aa week
week at
at night.
night. You can
can do
do this.
this.
224 $5So toto make

make aa long
Long story
story short,
short, I ended
ended upup doing
doing
2525 te.
it. But
But 1I vented
wanted ~ogo bebe sure
sure that
that II was
was going
cong toto lose
FREE STATE REPORTING,·INC.
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: == bacause —- 20 I ran in a

PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- because -- so I ran in a
3o{| stoseion nas no ones ever von, a Desosret had never ven.
district that no one's ever won, a Democrat had never won.
4of ana 1 won se

And I won it.
5> ane next thing you know, I'm in a tough position.

And next thing you know, I'm in a tough position.
6 6| tr seneste poss was there was a 10t of materiar that 1 nat

My generic point was there was a lot of material that I had
77| amassed that 1 wanted to save. I probably still have it

amassed that I wanted to save. I probably still have it
8o| somewhere. ana so chat seuss vousa raver unerever tne neit
somewhere. And so that stuff would travel wherever the hell
9 of vas
I was --
"
10 MR. HOR: So, sir, that material that you just —
MR. HUR: So, sir, that material that you just
11||
11 hat you renenber having, again, trying to steer us back to
that you remember having, again, trying to steer us back to
12||
12 whe ent of your vice prestasmey sn soesng on your nove
the end of your vice presidency and focusing on your move
13|
13 out of the Naval Observatory. Do you recall having these
out of the Naval Observatory. Do .you recall having these
14||
14 ype of singe ish you a5 the eval cosssvasery sat shis
types of things with you at the Naval Observatory and this
15
15 was
was part
part of
of the
the stuff
stuff you were
you were trying
trying to
to move
move out?
out?
6
16 SP PRESIDENT BIDEN: No. I had most of it at my
17]17 nose sn sat otesce.

house in that office.
: 18
18 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: At the
At the lake
lake house?
house?
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: At the lake house.
I"
20 AMR. HUR: Okay, understood. Okay. So focusing on
21
21 the
the move
move out
out of
of the Naval Observatory
the Naval Observatory and
and the
the documents
documents and
and
22 tne siren vans vom mnt sere, 2es se ask @ cwupte questions.
22 the files that you had there, let me ask a couple questions.
23|| Wott. one ia, sometimes when people move — moving, in my

23 Well, one is, sometimes when people move -- moving, in my
24|| own enpestanca, 12 = prosty sessivte process, ans somesines

24 own experience, is a pretty terrible process, and sometimes
25| becpte go through and maybe they cul. They say, weil I —
25 people go through and maybe they cull. They say, well, I --
cE ee,I
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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[0:19:40.3]
22 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -- don't don't wantwant toto move this, I'm
move this, going toto
I'm going
3|3 throw this
throw this out, out, or or why should move
why II should move this, don't need
this, II don't need itit
4| 4 anymore.
anymore. Did
Did you you go go -- did you
-- did you dodo anyany ofof that
that culling
culling oror
5||5 thinning
thinning out or
out or purging
purging with respect toto any
with respect any ofof the stuff you
the stuff you
6||
6 were
were moving
moving out out of of the Naval Observatory?
the Naval Observatory?
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II don't don't recall,
recall, because
because II was was sosol
68 damn
damn busy busy trying
trying to get
to get set up
set up inin aa job job and and whatwhat mymy
9||
9 responsibilities
responsibilities would be.
would be. And And also,
also, II was was -- my my sister
sister was was
10||
10 helping
helping me.
me. She's
She's smarter
smarter than II am.
than am. My My sister
sister was was helping
helping]
11||
11 me
me with
with -- -- Delaware
Delaware wanted toto know
wanted know whether
whether oror not not I I wanted
wanted aa|
12||
12 Biden
Bi den Library
Library built
built there oror aa BiBiden
there Center. And
den Center. And thethe one
one]
13||
13 thing
thing II did did want,
want, as as pure ego, II wanted
pure ego, wanted my my kids,
kids, grandkids
grandkids toto|
1414|| have
have aa building
building on
on the
the -- -- inin thethe mall.
mall. Have Have youyou ever
ever been
been toto
15||
15 Delaware?
Delaware? it's
It's like University ofof Virginia.
like University Virginia. It's It's aa beautiful
beautiful
16||
16 mall.
mall. II mean,
mean, it it really
really is gorgeous.
is gorgeous. And And they're
they're building
building aal
i 17||
17 building
building there,
there, and
and II wanted
wanted toto buildbuild the the Biden
Biden Center,
Center, kindkind|
18||
18 of
of like
like the the Kennedy
Kennedy Center.Center. Matter ofof fact,
Matter fact, II hired
hired thethe woman
woman|
19||
19 who
who ran
ran the the Kennedy
Kennedy Center Center to come
to come downdown toto helphelp me me bring
bring inin|
20||
20 speakers
speakers and
and things
things like that.
like that. No No pay.
pay. This This waswas just
just toto get
get|
21||
21 the
the building
building built,
built, which was
which was still
still aa process.
process.
2222 50
So II waswas doing
doing aa lot lot ofof that,
that, and and that
that wasn't
wasn't ----
23||
23 among
among other
other things things is
is II waswas leaving
leaving the the vicevice presidency.
presidency. I I
2424|| don't
don't recall
recall going
going through
through anything that
anything that wasn't
wasn't trulytruly
25||
25 personal
personal and
and should
should be be upup next
next toto my my bedbed oror mymy bedroom
bedroom --
FREE Reporting
STATE REPORTING,
INC.
Court
court
Transcription
5.c. Area 301-261-1902
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
|
DOLHICHUR0000005
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11 [0:21:14.7]
[0:21:14.7)
22 PRESIOBNT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: know. You
you know.
BIDEN: --= or,or, you You know what
know what
3| ©I meen
3 mean? 7I conte
don't secant
recall --
‘
4 wrMR. wm okay.
HUR: Okay.
s
5 PRGSSOTNT SEO: == going
PRESIDENT BIDEN: going through
Shiwugh that
Shak stuff.
EOE,
.
6 WR.
MR. HOR: okay. SoSo earlier,
HUR: Okay. serliex, you you know,
know, wewe talked
talked
77 about
about who
who was
was in charge of
in charge of packing
packing up
up your
your West
West Wing
Wing office.
office.
of] soSo 212

8 I'll ask
ask tne
the same question now.
same question nov. Who
who was
was inin charge
chasge ofof —-
99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II don't
don't know.
know. II never
never asked
asked
10||10 sowoony.
anybody. ©I att
did =-- you som, it52 was,
you know, vas, like
Line == people
poopie who who work
work
s2]|11 vats
with ww
me oven nome like,
even now, 260, when
wien I2 walk
vedi outous ofof theshe office
omEes andamt I 2
12]12 want
want to
to get
get something
something done, IT what
done, what I'll7111 dodo isis I'll1111 askask
13
13 |°°
-· B - doesn’t
doesn't have to
have to do
do itit all
all..• | >>}, make
make sure
sure
14||14 somebody
somebody —- -- you know, getget thethe press
you know, press teamteam inin here
here toto --= so0
15]]15 she
the ==
-- come
come up wp with
with a statossms
statement retard tovo such
related suk andant such.
ssh.
16]16 she
She doesn't
doesn't dodo thethe statement.
statement. You You know,
know, I'dI'd justJust rather
zathes --=
=17 ST
Anyway, so it's -- there's ——
nobody in particular
; 10||18 other than the

other than the pecote
people who who IT can to sich cutside she
resd itit to right
can read outside the
19 office and say, we've got to get this done. I can't -- I
20||20 don't
don't over
ever socal
recall saying, you
saying, you know
know --— II don't
don't know.
know, There
There
21||
21 was
was oa Library
library —-- there
there waswas aa bookshelf
booksnels inin thethe Vice
Vice
22||
22 president's
President's office,
office, and I1 remember
and semenber --—- I think
think itit hadhad things
thins
23||
23 in
in there
there like
like genealogy
genealogy of the
of the
| >> II said
said make
make
20|24 sure
sure that
that —--- you know, that
you know, that alla11 gets
gots taken
taken care
caxe of,of, I mean,
mean,
2525 2sas 1m
I'm walking
walking out.
out. But II don't
But don't recall
secall ever
ever saying,
saying, youyou --—
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1)1 [0:22:56.3] 3)
r0:22:56.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- know,
-- know, you dodo ----
EE, you
3||3 not|>
not B .,EE you do
you do this,
this, you
you do
do that.
that. They'd
They'd
44 come
come to to meme andand say, say, what what do do you
you want
want done done with
with A,A, B,B, CC oror D,D,
5||
5 and
and 1I can't
can't remember,
remember, quite frankly,
quite frankly, even even anyany ofof those
those
6||
6 questions, , but
questions but II aian't,
didn't, II didn't
didn't pay pay anyany attention
attention toto how how
7||
7 they
they packed
packed it it up.up.
88 MR.
MR. HOR: HUR: Okay. Okay. And And II wantwant toto makemake sure
sure that
that thethe
9|9 thrust
thrust of
of my my question
question is clear inin that
is clear that ---- itit makes
makes perfect
perfect
10||
10 sense
sense withwith respect
respect to official-type type matters,
to official- matters, you, you, you
you grab
grab
11||
11 whoever
whoever is is closest
closest and
and say,say, IT got
got toto get get something
something done.done. My My
12||
12 question
question is
is about
about packing
packing up stuff
up stuff inin your your personal
personal
13||
13 residence
residence at
at the the Naval Observatory. And
Naval Observatory. And our understanding
our understanding
1414 isis that
that waswas ~- -- you you know,
know, that that waswas something
something that that youyou
i 15||
15 personally y funded.
personall funded. You know, you
You know, you hadhad toto paypay onon your
your own
own
} 16||16 credit
credit card,
card, aa mover
mover to to take
take stuff
stuff out out ofof thethe Naval
Naval
17||
17 Observatory ry and
Observato and thenthen take Wilmington. SoSo with
take itit Wilmington. with respect
respect toto
18||
18 your
your personal
personal effects,
effects, your documents, was
personal documents,
your personal was there
there
1919 a--
a --
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: One thing
One thing II remember
remember onon thatthat was
was
21||
21 furniture, , because
furniture because II wanted
wanted toto make make sure sure they
they didn't
didn't taketake
22||
22 anything
anything out
out of of the
the VP VP residence
residence that wasn't
that wasn't mine,
mine, you you know
know
23||
23 that
that waswas federal
federal government t property.
governmen property. But But II don't
don't remember
remember
24[|
24 saying,
saying, you
you know,know, don't don't take oror take
take take this this oror send
send this.
this. I I
25||
25 mean,
mean, II don't
don't know
know how how the the staff
staff
decided what
decided
what papers
papers ----
CourtD.C.Reporting.
Court Reporting
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Transcription
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11 [0:24:19.2)
[0:24:19.2]
22 sresTom BIbEN: you're kind of talking about,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: you're kind of talking about,
3|| yom now, matoria, what would go to she residence and wha
3 you know, material, what would go to the residence and what
4|| mouse go to - is trac now the state got in the garage?

4 would go to -- is that how the stuff got in the garage?
s 5 Mm. HR: Tm sorry, sir. T didn hear you.

MR. HUR: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't hear you.
‘ 6 PRESTORNT BIDEN: Ts that how the stuff got in ny,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Is that how the stuff got in my,
7|[7 my
my --
-- didn't
didn't get
get in my garage
in my garage until much
until much later.
later. There was
There was
o| stuee one aay. 1 came home ana a11 of it was on the sazage
8 stuff one day. I came home and all of it was on the garage
of fro0r. mis vas rater though. te mistrve been after —-

9 floor. This was later though. It must've been after --
10] anyway.
10 anyway.
11
11 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. Well, here's
Well, here's another
another question
question
12| xetaning to the move cut of the personal restdence at the

12 relating to the move out of the personal residence at the
13]| nave coservatory. we understand that at some point,

13 Naval Observatory. We understand that at some point,
14| comards the end of your vice presidency, there were some
14 towards the end of your vice presidency, there were some
15
15 boxes
boxes that
that you
you wanted
wanted to move yourself
to move yourself and
and that
that
16||
16 Mr.
Mr. Ricchetti
Ricchetti and
and Mr.
Mr. - decided, well,
decided, well, we
we need
need toto help
help
17] the vice prestdent out with this, and so you sli losded sone
17 the Vice President out with this, and so you all loaded some
18 boxes into Mr. Ricchetti's minivan, and the minivan drove
15]| chose materials out of the Naval observatory to where they

19 those materials out of the Naval Observatory to where they
20] vere going to go. Sous that, dese shun sing a bet?
20 were going to go. Does that, does that ring a bell?
2
21 SO PRESIDENT BIDEN: No. The only thing that rings a
22| bet ts youre making my point. They decided that there

22 bell is you're making my point. They decided that there
23|| anouta — thet — what shout be done, you know, that they
23 should -- that what should be done, you know, that they
22|| anouta note Baten move boven ox whatever. 1 don't ever

24 should help Biden move boxes or whatever. I don't ever
25 | ssmesbor == 1m sure there vere sings thas = Hones we ==

25 remember -- I'm sure there were
things that -- boxes we

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11 10:25:42.9]
(0:25:42.9]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- threw threw
clothing in,in, threw
threw clothing
3||
3 pictures
pictures in, threw
in, threw -- -- you know. But
you know. But II don't remember
ever remember
don't ever
44 packing
packing up
up written
written material toto gogo anywhere.
material anywhere. ItIt doesn't
doesn't mean mean
s5{| teit asane
didn't nappen,
happen, but
but 1I justjust don't
don't remember
remember any any ofof that.
that.
.6 MR.
MR. UR: HUR: Okay.Okay. Anything else
Anything elae onon moving
moving outout ofof
77 [| the
the Neval
Naval observatory?
Observatory? Nope? Okay.
Nope? okay.
58 ALL
All right.
right. So now let's
So now let's shift
shift gears
gears slightly
slightly and and
o|9 tark
talk about
about the the chain Bridge Road
Chain Bridge Rosd residence
residence inin McLean,
Metean,
10)10 Vizginta.
Virginia. SoSo when
when you you were
were wrapping
wrapping upup your your vice
vice presidency
presidency
11||
11 and
and making
making arrangements
arrangements for the
for the rental
rental ofof thethe house
house onon Chain
Chain
12||
12 Bridge
Bridge Road, Road, how how longlong did did youyou anticipate
anticipate livingliving there?
there?
113 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II really
really hadhad nono idea.
idea. I'mI'm notnot
14||
14 being
being facetious
facetious when
when II say that. II knew
say that. knew that
that inin order
order toto
15||
15 get
get thethe PennPenn Biden Center established,
Biden Center established, II had had toto --—- and
and mymy
16||
16 stator
sister had
had spoken
spoken up up at,
at, at at thethe Kennedy
Kennedy Center,
Center, andand sheshe
17||
17 became
became friends
friends with
with the woman who
the woman who ran
xan thethe Kennedy
Kennedy Center
Center and and
18||
18 convinced
convinced hex
her to to cone
come downdown and and setset upup thethe Biden
Biden Center
Center likelike
19||
19 the
the Kennedy
Kennedy Center Center at Harvard.
at Harvard. And, And, andand soso I,I, II don't,
dont, I©
20||
20 don't
don't consciously
consciously remember ---- it'sit's kind
remember kind ofof like
like mymy wife
uite
21]21 askedasked mo me thethe other
other day,
day, sheshe spoke
spoke downdown atat thethe Truman
Truman
22||
22 Library.
Library. she
She said,
said, Joe, have
Joe, have youyou decided
decided onon your
your library.
Library.
23||
23 1I said,
said, 1I have
have no idea where
no idea where I've I've got
got --= II mean
meen --—- and
and I1
24||
24 don't
don't think
think 1'm
I'm supposed
supposed to while
to while I'm I'm President
President think think about
about
25||
25 the
the Library.
library. But
But she she said,
said, dos, but
Joe, but that's
that's going
going toto bebe ---=
GortReporting.Feansceiption
apenas
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11 [0:27:39.7]
[0:27:39.7)
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- thing. She
important thing.
—- anan important She
5|
3 sata,
said, you
you ougnt
ought to co talk
talk toto somebody
somebody about
about that,
that, Joe.
Joe. You tou
o|
4 knows
know, we we —-
-- TmI'm serious.
serious. That was
That was aa discussion
discussion wewe had.had. She she
315] vas
was vas
very anguy
angry vithwith me Secsnme she,
me because she, she
she went
ven outou and
and diddid a=
6|6 thing
thing at at the
the Truman
Truman sibrary,
Library, and she
and she said,
said, that's
thats thethe place
place
7||7 where
where all
all that
that you've
you've done isis going
done going toto end
end up
up being
being located.
located.
o|8 ana
And 1I sata,
said, 1I donre
don't know.
know. There's thethe Biden
There's Biden Center.
Center. Cancan --—
of9) 1I done
don't know.
know. and
And xI really
seatly don't.
don't. I© have
nave nono idea.
idea.
1010 and
And apparently,
apparently, there's --—— mymy recollection
there's recollestion isis
11||
11 there's
there's people
people competing.
competing. Syracuse University
Syracuse University would
would like
like
12
12 it,
it, University
University of
of Delaware
Delaware would like
would like it.
it. They want
They want to
to do
do
13||
13 t&it down
down here
here <n
in Hashington.
Washington. They want
They want --—- IT mean,
mean, I,1, T don't
don't I
14
14 know.
know. And if
if I did know, II wouldn't
did know, wouldn't know
know how
how ---- how
how could
could
15
15 you
you raise
raise money
money anyway while I'm
anyway while I'm aa U.S.
U.S. senator
senator to
to do
do that
that
16
16 ~-
-- II mean
mean President.
President.
i"17 SoSo my
my point
point is, itit was
is, was thethe same
same kind
kind ofof thing.
thing. I,I,
1618 [| ©I wasn's
wasn't thinking
thinking about --— IT was
about vas just
Sust trying
teving toto think
think ofof —
1819 [| 1I ve
was opto
hoping sins that =I could
conic have
wave anan influence
ancsnense internationally
sosesnaRsREILY
20||
20 1ike
like Tony
Tony siaix,
Blair, Like
like other
other leaders have
leaders have from
rom other
other
21||
21 countries
countries when
when theythey leftleft and
and stayed
stayed engaged
engaged inin thethe public
public
22||
22 worsey
policy ston
sides ofof the
the segment.
argument. sessuse I= really
Because zenity dodo think
nin
23||
23 that,
that, that
that withwith aa little
1ictie bitbit ofof luck,
luck, wewe --— IT mean,
nesn, thethe
24||
24 world's
world's changing,
changing, man.
man.
25
25 What II was
What was going
going to
to do,
do, II was
was going
going to
to write
write aa ----
A
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1|1 wiser
[0:29:21.8]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: -- —- book
book before
before II decided
decided toto runrun
3||3 aout
about ws us =
-- 1I think
think the
he world
worta goes
goes through
through these
these major
major
o|4 snsiection
inflection potnts
points unere what's
where what's happening
happening atat that
that moment
moment and
ana
s5 the
the two,
two, four
four years around either
years around either side
side of
of it,
it, and
and the
the
6|6 outcome
outcome of
of those discussions determine
those discussions determine what
what theche next
next six,
six,
77 seven
seven decades
decades look like.
look like. II think
think that's
that's where
where we
we are
are right
right
of8 now.
now.
59 for
For example,
example, IT think
think thethe Israeli
Teraeli thing
thing hashas changed
changed
10{|10 ttit a11.
all. Were
We're in in aa position
position where
where IT fundamentally
fundamentally changed
changed
11||
11 the
the ——-- our
our position
position in the,
in the, inin thethe Indo-Pacific.
Indo-Pacific. When hen II
12
12 told
told my
my team,
team, my
my foreign
foreign policy team
policy team and
and intelligence
intelligence
13||
13 people,
people, II was
was going to ge~to
going to soJ engage inin Europe
engage Europe and
and
14||
14 work
work out
out aa deal
deal wo
wit- they looked
they looked atat me
me like
like II
15||
15 was
was mute.
nuts. But
But 1I got i done.
got it done. When
When they
they --— this
this isis notmot
16||16 classifted.
classified. When
When II put
put together
together what
what they
they call
call AUKUS
AUKUS and and
17||
17 the
the ability
ability of,
of, of
of nuscraliJE
Australi . State
which
which
16||
18 zeatty
really changes
changes the
the whole dynamic insn theche Indian
whole dynamic Tntian Ocean.
ocesn. When
When
15||
19 ©I was
was able
able to to bring
bring together thethe quad:
together quad: India,
nats, Australia,
Australia,
20||
20 Gapan,
Japan, the
the United
United states,
States, there were
there were --—- IT just
just had
had 1616
21||
21 Pacific
Pacific Toland
Island Leaders
leaders here that
here that were
were heads
hesds ofof state.
state. And,
And,
22||
22 ©I mean,
mean, we we have
have aa chance
chance to to fundamentally
fundamentally change change andand make
make
23||
23 diecerent
different and
and more
more secure
secure that part
that part ofof thethe world.
world. Which
wich
26||
24 Chinas
China's influence
influence ta seeking
is seeking to bebe profound.
to profound. Same Same way
way inin
25||
25 Afeica.
Africa. 1I mean,
mean, we have plenty
we have plenty ofof people
people inin Africa,
Africa, butbut --—
Court Reporting Teanséripion
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11 0:31:08.01
[0:31:08.0]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- what, we're
guess what,
-- guess going toto
we're going
3|3 build
build the the first
first trans-continental
trans-continental railroad across
railroad across that
that
4|4 country.
country. We're
We're going
going to make sure
to make sure Angola
Angola has has the
the most
most
5||
5 significant,
significant, most
most significant
significant influx ofof capital
influx capital toto build
build aa
6|
6 solar
solar facility
facility that's
that's larger than
larger than anyany place
place inin the
the world.
world.
7|7 Again
Again --
88 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Mr. President, II am
Mr. President, am soso sorry
sorry toto
9||
9 interrupt
interrupt you.
you. II just
just want toto make
want make sure
sure ---- II have
have aa fair
fair
10||
10 amount
amount of of material
material --
--
111 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yeah, Yeah, I'm I'm going
going toto stop.
stop. II just just
12||
12 wanted
wanted to to give
give youyou an overall. That's
an overall. That's the the kind
kind ofof stuff
stuff
13||
13 that
that II was was thinking
thinking about,
about, what II would
what would still
still bebe aa part
part ofof
14||
14 in
in the
the international
international community
community and and U.S.
U.S. interest,
interest, and and that's
that's
15|
15 why
why Penn,
Penn, Delaware,
Delaware, those things
those things matter.
matter.
16
16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Understood.
Understood. And let
And let meme ask
ask this
this
17||
17 question
question in
in aa slightly
slightly different
different way. When
way. When you
you were
were
18||
18 deciding
deciding to
to move
move intointo Chain Bridge Road,
Chain Bridge Road, the the home
home there,
there, II
19||
19 suppose
suppose on
on one
one endend of the spectrum
of the spectrum you you could
could say,
say, I'm
I'm going
going
20||
20 to
to furnish
furnish this
this place
place very,
very, very sparsely.
very sparsely. I'm I'm not
not going
going toto
21||
21 bring
bring much much there
there because
because I'm not
I'm not going
going toto bebe there
there that
that
22||
22 long.
long. At
At the
the other
other end,
end, youyou could
could say,
say, II want
want toto bring
bring
23||
23 pretty
pretty much
much everything
everything II own
own because
because this this isis going
going toto bebe my
my
24||
24 primary
primary residence.
residence. Where along the
Where along the spectrum
spectrum —-
25
25 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: In between.
In between.
Conetsporting Aeansbipeion
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22 We. HR: == was Chain Bridge Sond in your mind in

MR. HUR: -- was Chain Bridge Road in your mind in
3{| vosus of now mus svute yon deste to bring sherer ans
3 terms of how much stuff you decided to bring there? And
o| thats curnteure, enacts papers, that's persona eetects,

4 that's furniture, that's papers, that's personal effects,
1 [Er
5 things like that.
.6 FRESTOGNT TIDEN: decided £6 bad vo Louk gods

PRESIDENT BIDEN: I decided it had to look good,
77 because
because II was
was bringing people there
bringing people there that
that were
were heads
heads of
of state
state
88 that
that were
were national
national security advisors,
security advisors, that
that were
were famous
famous
99 people
people that
that I'm
I'm trying
trying to get
to get engaged
engaged in
in the
the Senate
Senate or
or --
10]| antvor neners of the House, the Senste, that Hint of thing.
10 and/or members of the House, the Senate, that kind of thing.
32{| nt 50 2 mate sume sows 45 van gornisas. 6 was = alsessy

11 And so I made sure that it was furnished. It was -- already
12|| nad fusnituze, but 1, switched off some of the furniture

12 had furniture, but I, I switched off some of the furniture
13|| at brought tn thas usnisure. waster of fact, it's still

13 and brought in that furniture. Matter of fact, it's still
24) —- there was no piace so put tr. Tors up in the thizd fro0r
14 there was no place to put it. It's up in the third floor
15||15 of the White Rouse there in the solarium, a couple leather

of the White House there in the solarium, a couple leather
16| couches, paintings, that kind of thing.

16 couches, paintings, that kind of thing.
2
17 ars ant 0 hates vik © rangi ating. So it
And, and so that's what I brought along. And it
18 wasn't much. I mean, it was anyway, the, the place was
19 already nice, and I didn't have to do all the bedrooms
20|| upstairs. I didnt nesd them a1l. So some of them axe sust
20 upstairs. I didn't need them all. So some of them are just
21] - not 2 bt 4m 28 ane ene was 22, you snow.

21 -- had a bed in it and that was it, you know.
2
22 A— MR. HUR: Understood. Okay. I think before we
23] took the break, te T semester correctly. you nad mentions

23 took the break, if I remember correctly, you had mentioned
24|| some spectssc pieces of furniture, and so T wanted to --

24 some specific pieces of furniture, and so I wanted to --
2s
25 WE. BNE Spmoitic hast Tm sory, when?
MR. BAUER: Specific
what? I'm sorry, what?

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(0:33:54.4)
22 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: -- couldn't --—
Rob, II couldn't
-- Rob,
33 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Specific pieces of
Specific pieces furniture.
of furniture.
‘4 MR.
MR. BAUER: Thank you.
BAUER: Thank you.
55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: And please correct
And please correct me
me ifif I'm
I'm
6||
6 misrenembering
misremembering what you
what you told
told us,
us, but
but II think
think you
you mentioned
mentioned aa
7||7 couple
couple of
of file
file cabinets
cabinets that II think
that think you
you said
said you
you purchased
purchased
order to
88 | inin order to place
place them
them into Bridge Road
chain Bridge
the Chain
into the residence.
Road residence.
o9[| ota
Did 1I near
hear youyou correctiy,
correctly, or am
or an I1 misremembering?
misrenemvering?
1010 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No. No. Purchased
Purchased ---- that
that I I
11||
11 purchased
purchased =-- 1I don't
don't remember having
remember having any
any --= brought
brought any any --== I I
12||12 may
may have.
have. Actually,
Actually, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure. (Indiscernible
(tndiscernible
13]13 osss2an)
0:34:24.1) =
1014 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: II may may bebe misremembering,
misremembering, soso ----
1s15 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'm I'm not
not sure.
sure. I'm I'm trying
trying toto
16||16 think
think what
what it it looked like. Do
looked like. Do we
we have
have anyany pictures
pictures ofof Chain
Chain
17]17 Bridge
Bridge roadRoad?
118 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: IT do, do, IT do.
do.
119 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'llI'll tell
tell you
you {indiscernible
(indiscernible
20||
20 o:30:00.5).
0:34:40.5).
21
21 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: They
They should be in
should be in the
the binder
binder inin front
front
22||
22 ofof you
you. 1f
If wewe go to ---- well,
go to well, actually,
actually, you you know
know what,
what, let's
let's
23||
23 suse
just start
start at
at tab 14, and
tab 14, and there
there areare some
some photos
photos here
here ofof part
part
24||
24 ofof the
the chain
Chain Bridge Road residence.
Bridge Road residence. And And these
these begin
begin with
with
25||
25 sates
Bates Number
Number ussss23351_0001.
USSS523351 0001. There's another
There's another shot,
shot,
ergs, Reporting.
Court
FREE STATE, REPORTING,
STATE
Court Reporting
REPORTING, TNC
Teanséripeion
INC.
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1]1 0:38:15.1)
(0:35:15.1]
22 MR.
MR. HOR: USSS523352_001.
HUR: USSS523352 001.
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah.
44 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Just Just toto follow
follow you, you, Rob
Rob ---=
55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Yes.Yes.
66 MR. BAUER: ~-- are

MR. BAUER: you going
are you going through
through ---- these
these areare
77|[ -- this
this is
is inin sequence,
sequence, because I'm
because I'm ---- thethe lettering
lettering ---- oror
8||
8 the
the numbering
numbering that you were
that you were citing
citing isis ---- I'm I'm having
having aa little
little
9||
9 trouble
trouble following
following what
what was was ----
10 10 MR.
MR. HUR: Yeah, I'm
HUR: Yeah, I'm sorry.
sorry.
111 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: No, No, that's
that's all all right.
right.
12 12 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: II see see that it's --—-
that it's
13 13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The

PRESIDENT BIDEN: The second
second one one shows
shows thethe desk
desk
14||
14 looking
looking out
out on on two couches.
two couches.
1515 MR.
MR. HOUR:
HUR: Yes.Yes. So that's --—-
So that's
16 16 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Two

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Two leather
leather couches.
couches.
1717 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- 2523352_0001.
2523352 0001.
18 18 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE MALE SPEAKER:
SPEAKER: Um-hum. Unm-hum.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: And And that's
that's my my desk
desk and
and mymy
20||
20 couches.
couches.
21
21 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay.
HUR: Okay.
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And then
then II was was deciding
deciding whether
whether
23||
23 to
to set
set this
this up up as
as aa -- that other
-- that other room
room was was aa conference
conference
24||
24 room,
room, butbut II don't
don't (indiscernible
(indiscernible 0:35:55.5) ----
0:35:55.5)
25
25 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: And when you
And when you say
say the the other
other room
room was
was --=
FREEReporting
FREE STATS REPORTING,
INC.
CourtD.C.Reporting
Court Transcription
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D.C. Area
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301-261-1902
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DOLHICHUR0000105
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000105
— ve ~ DRAFT 74
11 10:35:57.2]
[0:35:57.2]
22 MR.
MR. HUR: -- aa conference
HOR: -- are you
room, are
conference room, referring
you referring
33 eoto --
‘4 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT This room,
BIDEN: This you know,
room, you where allall
know, where
5||5 the glass
the glass is.
is. Well, the
Well, the question what was
question isis what going toto do
was II going do
6||
6 with that open
with chat space.
open space.
77 MR. HUR: Yeah.

MR. HUR: Yeah. Well, actually have
Well, II actually slightly
have aa slightly
88 different
different question,
question, and II want
and want to make sure
to make we're
that we're
sure that
5||
9 200king
looking the same
at the
at photo. II think
same photo. think it'sit's523353001.
523353 001.
1010 PRESIDENT BIDEN:

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah.
111 MR. HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. So that, you're
So that, referring toto aa
you're referring
1212 | conference
conference room. Let's
room. with --—
start with
Let's start
213 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Well, didn't --—- IIwas
Well, II didn't was --—- II
24||
14 can't
can't remember
remember what what II did with it.it.
did with
1515 MR. HUR: II see.
MR. HOR: see.
116 ERESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: And And the next one
the next one isis the just
the --— just
17||
17 aa different
different perspective looking
perspective looking at the
at where my
the --—- where was.
desk was.
my desk
16||
18 There —-
there -- andand then
then -- —
919 MR. HOR: Yep.
MR. HUR: You're looking
Yep. You're 523356.
looking atat 523356.
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah. Now Now I'm looking atat 79,
I'm looking 79,
21||
21 379.
379. The last
he last one.
one.
222 MR. Okay. Got

HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: 523379.
Got it.it. 523379.
223 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: II don't remember. Isn't
don’t remember. there aa
Isn't there
24||
24 file
file cabinet
cabinet there
there somewhere though. II can't
somewhere though. see it.it.
can't see
225 HOR: So,
WR. HUR:
MR. So, sos0 --—-
GoutReporting. Franeczipeion
01-63-3508
hres 301-261-1902
5.0 Area
D.C.
I
cose R00
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000106
I oso •• DRAFT [0
75
11 [0:36:46.4)
[0:36:46.4)
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Oh, here's
Oh, one.
here's one.
5
3 WR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So these photographs
So these photographs --—
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Here, here it is.
5 s MR. HOR: These

MR. HUR: These photographs
photographs werewere taken
taken inin January
January
6|6 = sansazy
January 12th,
12th, 2017, right
2017, rich after
acter thethe movers
movers moved
moved stuff
sturt
7 al an
in.
8 . eRESTOENT BIDEN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yeah.
9s WR. HR:
MR. HUR: AndAnt soso you'll
you'll see
ses inin a& number
mumber ofof these
these
10||
10 photos,
photos, there
there are boxes stacked
are boxes stacked around.
around.
un11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah.
1212 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So my
my first
first question
question is,is, who,
who, who
who went
went
13||
13 through
through these
these boxes and unpacked
boxes and unpacked themthem and
and put
put their
their contents
contents
14|
14 inin places?
places?
1s15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II don't

PRESIDENT EIDEN: don't know.
know. II probably
probably went
went
16 through
through some
some of
of them, but I don't
them, but don't remember.
remember. And ---- because
And because
1717 =a 30lot ofof them

them nag
had prorures,
pictures, photographs. There's
photographs. There's aa few few ofof
16]18 them
them on on the
the wall
wall there.
there. amt then
And then there
there were
were a= lotLot ofof books
Books
15||
19 snin chose
those boxes too, I1 think.
boxes too, think.
20
20 wR
MR. HUR: Okay.Okay.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And IT --—-
222 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: And And when
when you
you --~- IT think
think you
you saidsaid you
you
23|| probably
23 probably unpacked
unpacked some ofof these
some these boxes.
boxes. WhatWhat would've
would've been been
24||
24 inin the
the bones that you
boxes that you probably
probably unpacked?
unpacked
2s
25 PRESTOENT BIDEN: The
PRESIDENT EIDEN: The books
books probably.
probably.
i
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000107
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76
if1 ro:38:02.1)
[0:38:02.1]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Books.
Books.
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
EIDEN: II don't
don't know.
know. II don't
don't know.
know.
4|4 I'm
I'm guessing
guessing I'd
I'd unpacked
unpacked the books
the books --
55 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- because

PRESIDENT EIDEN: because there's
there's someplace
someplace toto
7||
7 put
put them.
them. And
And ----
88 MR. HUR: So
MR. HUR: So it may be
it may be helpful
helpful now now toto go
go on
on toto tab
tab
99|[ 15.
15. 1I think
think you're
you're already
already there. So
there. So this
this isis another
another set
set
10
10 of
of —-
--
111 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Fifteen?

PRESIDENT EIDEN: Fifteen? Yeah.Yeah.
1212 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Yeah.
Yeah.
13 13 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes.Yes.
14
14 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE MALE SPEAKER: (Indiscernible
SPEAKER: (Indiscernible
15||
15 0:38:27.5).
0:38:27.5).
16 16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So So this
this is another
is another set
set ofof photographs
photographs ----
17
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep.
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yep.
118 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- -- of,
of, II believe,
believe, thethe same
same room
room atat Chain
Chain
19||
19 Bridge
Bridge Road,
Road, but
but I'd
I'd like
like youyou toto take
take aa look
look through
through them.
them.
20||
20 These
These have
have Bates
Bates numbers starting with
numbers starting with EE, including
including
21||
21 91
91 001
001 =
22
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
EIDEN: Yeah.
Yeah.
23
23 MR. HUR: --
MR. HUR: -- 63 and then
63 and then Vanity
Vanity FairFair 001.
001.
21
24 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah.
25
25 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So So isis this
this that
that same office on
same office on that
that ----
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.INC.
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Court Reporting
Transcription
D.C.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
Area 301-261-1902
I
DOLHICHUR0000108
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000108
EE DRAFT
ore ”
77
11] corseesen
[0:38:59.1)
22 PRESIDENT BIVEN: Yeah,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yah, same
same one.
one.
53 ME.
MR. HOR:
HUR: —-
-- Kind of ground
kind of ground floor?
floor?
.
4 PRESIDENT BIOEN: Yeah.
55 WR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
s
6 PRESIDENT BICEN: Same
PRESIDENT BIDEN: place.
Same place.
77 MR.
MR. HUR: So --
HUR: So -- I'm
I'm sorry,
sorry, the
the basement,
basement, rather.
rather.
o8]| he
The 2owest
lowest 1ever.
level.
59 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It's

PRESIDENT BIDEN: It's the
the lowest
lowest level
level --—-
1010 Mr. HOR: Lowest.
MR. HUR: Zowest.
n11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- atat the
PRESIDENT BIDEN: the Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road.
Road.
1212 MR. HOR: Got
MR. HUR: Got it.Lt. Okay.
Okay. SoSo inin these
these shots,
shots, itit
13||
13 Looks
looks 1ike we can
like we see the
can see the desk.
desk. II think
think you
you were
were talking
talking
14||
14 about
about this this desk betore.
desk before.
1s15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah.

116 MR. HOR: Where

MR. HUR: Where did this desk
did this desk come
come from?
from?
117 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ITown
PRESIDENT BIDEN: the desk.
own the desk. ItIt --—- II had
had itit
1||
18 tnin =-- ©I think
chink 1I had 1& atat the
had it the Naval
Naval Observatory.
observatory.
119 MR. HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. IsTs thisthis the
the desk
desk that
that you
you used
used
2020 | tor
for the tine you
the time were senator?
you were senator? Or, or, no,
no, no.
no. This
This ists —-
221 PRESIDENT BICEN: No,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, this
this --—-
222 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- —- aa different
different desk.
desk.
223 PRESIDENT BIGEN: This
PRESIDENT BIDEN: This isis aa desk
desk II think
think IT bought
bought
2024 sve from om -- Ix come
can't omten. I2 had
remember. mae it28 a» long
tong time
time though.
thon
225 we.
MR. HOR: Okay.
HUR: Okay.
Court
Court Reporting. Tramseription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
|
soso
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000109
EE 0:ArT
DRAF'l' 7
78
11 10:39:42.4]
(0:39:42.4]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: still have
II still have itit
have it.it. II have
33 upstairs.
upstairs.
a4 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay. And
HUR: Okay. And here,
here, we
we can
can see
seeaa file
file
55 cabinet.
cabinet.
66 PRESIDENT
BIDEN: Yeah.
77 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: We, we could
we, we could not
not see
see the
the file
file cabinet
cabinet in
in
88 the
the prior
prior set.
set.
39 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And I think that
And I think that file
file cabinet
cabinet isis
10||
10 one
one that
that ends
ends up
up back
back at =
at -- in the
in the corner
corner atat the
the lake.
lake.
111 VR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: II see.
see. It's the
It's the same
same cabinet?
cabinet?
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II believe
believe so.
so.
1313 MR. HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'd have
I'd have toto look.
look. ItIt may
may not
not bebe
15
15 the
the same
same height,
height, but I think
but think so.
so. It has
It has --
-- and
and itit has
has two
two
16||
16 file
file dravers.
drawers.
1717 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: II see.
see. And And soso inin these
these photos,
photos, when
when thethe
16||
18 file
file cabinet
cabinet was here atat Chain
was here Chain Bridge
Bridge Road,
Road, what
what kinds
kinds ofof
15||
19 things
things were
were inin itz
it?
2020 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Everything

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Everything -- II believe
believe
21
21 everything
everything from,
from, you
you know, empty files
know, empty files to
to -- II mean,
mean, II just
just
22
22 | had
had files
files piled
piled that
that II needed
needed toto file,
file, toto -- II don't
don't know
know
23
23 | what
what else
else was
was in there. II don't,
in there. don't, II don't
don't know.
know. II don't
don't
24|
24 remember.
remember.
25
25 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Did, did
Did, did anyone
anyone else else keep
keep files
files inin —
TE
Court ———
Neporting Transcription
5.0 Area
ean 301-261-1902
S01-361-1505
D.C.
I
oosuCHURRI0
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000110
Jee
DRAFT ”
79
11 (0:40:58.01
[0:40:58.0)
22 MR. HUR: ---- that

MR. HUR: that file cabinet when
file cabinet was atat
when itit was
3||
3 chain
Chain Bridge Road, or
Bridge Road, or were
were theythey your
your files?
files?
14 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: No, No, they,
they, they they were
were allall mymy
5||
5 files,
files, II believe,
believe, or or atat least
least underunder my my control.
control. May May have
have --
6||
6 somebody
somebody may may nave
have mademade up up aa file
file forfor me, me, but
but II don't
don't think
think
77| ==
-- itit wasn't
wasn't like
like somebody filed
somebody filed their papers
their papers inin mymy file
file
88 cabinet.
cabinet.
99 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay. And the
And the reason
reason II ask ask isis because,
because,
10||
10 you
you know,
know, other
other people
people —- atat least
least oneone other
other person
person lived
lived
11||
11 there,
there, Dr.
Dr. Biden
Biden lived
lived there.
there.
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Oh, Oh, she
she --—-
1313 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Did Did she,
she, for for example,
example, put put things
things inin thatthat
14||
14 cabinet?
cabinet?
3 15
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: She She wanted
wanted nothing
nothing toto dodo with
with my my
16
16 || filing
filing system.
system.
17||
17 (aughter)
(Laughter)

PRESIDENT BIDEN: You You think
think I'm I'm kidding,
kidding, guys.guys.
19||
19 (Indiscernible
(Indiscernible 0:41:33.2).
0:41:33.2).
20
20 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: We, We, we we believe
believe you. you.
2121 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not even
even close.
close.
22
22 MR.
MR. HOR: Okay. All
HUR: Okay. All right.
right. That's,That's, that's
that's
23||
23 helpful.
helpful. How
How often
often -- when
when you you were living atat Chain
were living Chain Bridge
Bridge
24||
24 Road,
Road, howhow often
often do you recall
do you recall being being inin and and out
out ofof the
the file
file
25|
25 cabinet?
cabinet?
INC.
Courto.c.Reporting
Reporting Transéription
D.C. Area
Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1508
Court Transcription
. "
0OIHICHUR GOOD11
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000111
[Jee
DRAFT so
80
11 10:41:50.9)
[0:41:50.9]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II don't often.
very often.
think very
don't think Most
Most
5| ofof the
3 the stute
stuff was static. But
was static. suc what
what I1 did
did do,
do, I'dTd have
have
o4| motings
meetings here.
here. 1a nave
I'd state meetings
have staff meetings here.
here. I1 would
wourd have,
nave,
55{| you
you know
know —-- anyway, nave political
anyway, have political meetings,
meetings, I'dTid have
have
66 meetings
meetings relative
relative to
to Penn.
Penn.
77 2nd
And II went down ---- II remember
went down remember buying
buying this
this
o8| conference
conference table. 1I believe
table. believe itit waswas thethe one
one IT bought
bought inin
59| wiintngeon
Wilmington atat merger
Berger Brothers,
Brothers, I1 believe.
believe. SoSo when
when IT had
had
10||
10 meetings,
meetings, TI could
could actually
actually assemble people
assemble people around
around thethe table,
table,
111 soso --
12
12 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So you just told
you just told us
us where
where you
you bought
bought the
the
13||
13 conference
conference table. Do
table. Do you
you remember where did
remember where dtd thethe file
file
14
14 cabinet
cabinet come from?
from?

PRESIDENT BIDEN: don't know.
I don't know.
1616 We.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
17
17 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Rob, just
And Rob, just so
so the
the record
record isis
18 clear --
1519 "=.
MR. wnHUR: ven.
Yes.
2»20 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: —- when
when hehe was
was talking
talking aboutabout thethe
21||
21 conterence
conference table, hehe ad
table, moved onto
had moved onto tabtab 16,
16, thethe first
ixst
22||
22 picture
picture benina
behind tab 16.
tab 16.
223 VR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Understood.
Understood. And that's
And that’s --—
2a24 I
PRESIDENT BIDEN: 052. —
P.25 MR.
MR. UR:HUR: --= atat Bates
Bates LWTH ending
ending inin 52. 52. AllALL right.
right.
re eons oxen, ave.
wo FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
]
semaimaits
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000112
I DRAFT
DRAFT 81
81
10:43:00.2)
1 [0:43:00.1)
22 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Thank Thank you, you, Ed.Ed.
33 So
So with respect toto the
with respect the file
file cabinet,
cabinet, whenwhen itit was
was
44| at
at chain Bridge Road,
Chain Bridge Road, you mentioned having
you mentioned having meetings
meetings inin this
this
5||
5 space.
space. Was
Was thethe filefile cabinet one
cabinet one where
where you
you were
were inin and
and out
out
66 of
of itit — --
77 PRESIDENT
88 MR. HUR: --
MR. HUR: -- in in relation
relation toto those
those meetings?
meetings?
99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No. No. II would
would never
never bebe inin and
and out
out
10||
10 of
of ==-- no
no matter
matter where II was,
where going inin and
was, going and out
out ofof aa file
file
11||
11 cabinet
cabinet in aa meeting.
in meeting. II need
need toto knowknow ---- II know
know ahead
ahead ofof
12||
12 time
time what
what II wanted
wanted to to talk
talk about.
about. And usually,
And usually, itit waswas just
just
13||
13 notepads
notepads I'd have
I'd have toto talk about what
talk about what II wanted
wanted toto resolve.
resolve.
14
14 MR. HOR: So
MR. HUR: So when
when youyou werewere living
living inin Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge
15||
15 Road
Road andand there
there were documents
were documents relating toto things
relating things that
that you
you
16||
16 were
were working
working on, on, talking
talking with your staff,
with your staff, where
where were
were
17]
17 those
those -- --
18
18 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: There, There, therethere weren't
weren't many
many
19||
19 documents
documents that I'd
that I'd be talking toto staff
be talking staff about.
about. WhatWhat I'd
I'd bebe
20||
20 talking
talking about
about is, is, like,
like, here
here at at Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road
Road and
and Penn,
Penn,
21||
21 how
how do do wewe getget Senator
Senator Schmedlap toto change
Schmedlap change hishis position
position on on
22||
22 such-and-such
such-and-such an issue.
an issue. The The ---- butbut itit was
was ---- anyway,
anyway, ifif youyou
23||
23 take
take aa look,
look, it
it waswas -- look look atat allall thethe cartoons
cartoons we we have
have on
on
24||
24 the
the wall,
wall, that
that kind
kind of of thing.
thing. It was
It was also
also toto make
make itit look
look
25||
25 like
like aa home,
home, you you knowknow what what II mean.
mean.
Court
Court Raporeing. Feanscciption
D.C. Area 301-261-1502
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[0:44:34.0]
22 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes. Yes.
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: And And aa studystudy where
where ---—-
44 MR. HOR: Y.eah.
MR. HUR: Yeah.
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: EIDEN: ~-- II would
-- would be be spending
spending time.time.
66 MR. HUR: So
MR. HUR: So during
during this time
this time when
when you
you were
were living
living
77| at
at chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road
Road andand there
there were were documents
documents relating
relating toto
8||
8 the
the Penn
Penn Biden Center, oror the
Biden Center, the Biden
Biden Institute,
Institute, oror the the Cancer
Cancer
9||
9 Moonshot,
Moonshot, or
or your book, where
your book, where did did you you keep
keep papers
papers that
that
10||
10 related
related to
to those
those things
things that you
that you were
were actively
actively working
working on?on?
1
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Well, um
Well, um...
... I, I,I, I,I, I,I, II don't
I, don't
12||
12 know.
know. This
This is, is, what,
what, 2017,
2017, 2018,2018, that that area?
area?
1313 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes, Yes, sir. sir.
114 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Remember,
Remember, inin this this timeframe,
timeframe, my my
15
15 || son
son is is -- either
either been deployed
been deployed oror isis dying, dying, and, and, and
and soso itit
16||
16 was
was -- and and by by the
the way, there were
way, there were still
still aa lot lot ofof people
people atat
17||
17 the
the time
time whenwhen II got got out
out of of thethe Senate
Senate that that were
were encouraging
encouraging
16
18 || me
me toto runrun in this period,
in this period, except
except the President.
the President. I'm I'm not
not ----
19||
19 and
and notnot aa mean
mean thing
thing to say.
to say. He just
He just thought
thought that
that she she had
had aa
20||
20 etter
better shot
shot of of winning
winning the presidency
the presidency than than II did.
did. And And soso II
21||
21 hadn't,
hadn't, II hadn't,
hadn't, at this
at this pointpoint ---- even even though
though I'm I'm atat Penn,
Penn,
22||
22 II hadn't
hadn't walked
walked away away from
from the the idea
idea that that II maymay run
run forfor office
office
23||
23 again.
again. But ifif II ran
But ran again,
again, I'd be
I'd be running
running for for President.
President.
24
24 || And,
And, and and so so what
what was
was happening,
happening, though -- what
though what month
month did did Beau
Beau
25||
25 die?
die? Oh,
Oh, God,
God, May 30th —-
May 30th --
FREE STATS REPORTING, INC,
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OLHICHUR0000114
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rT 83
83
1f1 ro:46:26.11
[0:46:26.1)
22 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: 2015. 2015.
33 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE MALE SPERKER:
SPEAKER: 2015. 2015.
44 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Was Was itit 2015
2015 he he had
had died?
died?
55 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: ItIt was
MALE SPEAKER: was May
May ofof 2015.
2015.
66 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: ItIt was was 2015.
2015.
77 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Or I'm not
Or I'm not sure
sure the the month,
month, sir,
sir, but
but II
88 think
think thatthat waswas thethe year.
year.
99 MR.
MR. KRICKEAUM:
KRICKBAUM: That's That's right,right, Mr. Mr. President.
President. ItIt --—-
10
10 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: And And what's
what's happened
happened inin thethe
11||
11 meantime
meantime is is that
that as as ---- and Trump gets
and Trump gets elected
elected inin November
November ofof
12||
12 20172
2017?
1313 UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER: 2016. 2016.
14
14 UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER: '16. '16.
15
15 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: '16, 2016.
'16, 2016. All All right.
right. So So --—-
16||
16 why
why dodo II have
have 2017
2017 here?
here?
17
17 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: That's when
That's when youyou leftleft office,
office, January
January
18||
18 of
of 2017.
2017.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah, Yeah, okay.
okay. But But that's
that's when
when
20||
20 Trump
Trump getsgets sworn
sworn in then, January
in then, January --
2121 MR. SISKEL:
MR. SISKEL: Right.
Right.
22
22 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Right,Right, correct.
correct.
23
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay, yeah.
yeah. And And inin 2017,
2017, Beau
Beau had
had
24||
24 passed
passed and and =--- this
this is personal ---- the
is personal the genesis
genesis ofof thethe book
book and
and|
25||
25 the
the title
title Promise
Promise Me, Dad, was
Me, Dad, was aa ---- II know know you're
you're all all ----
FRZE STATE REPORTING,
INC.
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I DRAFT 84
11 [0:47:55.2]
[0:47:55.2]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- close with your sons and
3 daughters, but Beau was like my right arm and Hunt was my
4 left. These guys were a year and a day apart and they could
5 finish each other's sentences, and Beau I used to go home
6 on the train, and in the period that I was still in the
77 Senate
Senate --
-- anyway. (Indiscernible
0:48:27.6). There was
There was
88 pressure
pressure --
-- not pressure.
not pressure. Beau knew
Beau knew how
how much
much II adored
adored him,
him,
9 and I know this sounds -- maybe this sounds so everybody
10 knew how close we were. There was not anybody in the world
11 who wondered whether or not -- anyway. And so
12 MR. HUR: Sir, I'm wondering if this is a good
13 time to take a break briefly. Would that be --
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, I -- let me just keep going
15 to get it done. Anyway, here's the deal. Beau -- I used to
16 go home when Beau was at -- from Penn, I used to go home on
17 the train on Fridays and always Jill and I would go -- as
18 the crow flies, Beau and his family lived a mile from where
19 we lived in Delaware. And, and so I'd go home and we'd have
20 dinner together on Friday nights when I'd get home. And my
21 mom, she had died, she had died. Anyway, she had been
22 living with us. And one night, when we were, were having
23 dinner, and Jill came on a different train, she was a little
24 bit later. We had the dinner and Jill said, I'm going to go
25 home and change, which is a mile away, and she left and --
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11 [0:50:14.6)
[0:50:14.6]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: -- Beau said, dad,
Beau said, dad, dodo you have aa
you have
3||
3 minute.
minute. 1I said,
sata, sure.sure. and hene asked
And asked his his wife
wife toto take
take his
his
44 entroren
children upstates
upstairs and ==
and -- soso wewe coutd
could talktaix atat the
the table.
sabe.
55 And
And he he looked
looked at at meme and
and hehe said,
said, dad,dad, II know,
know, II
6||
6 now
know nowhow much
much you you 10ve
love me, me, but
but ne sata, dad,
he said, dad, and
and I1 know
xmow your
your
7||7 tendency
tendency is is if sometning happens,
if something happens, you're
you're justjust going
going toto want
want
ol8 toto quit,
quit, yourre
you're not going
not going to to want
want toto bebe inin the
the public
pubic eye eye
o9 [| anymore.
anymore. And
And he he said
said —- -- TI said,
said, no,no, I'llT'11 bebe fine.
tine. HeHe said,
said,
10||
10 dat,
dad, 200%
look at at me, ne, dad,
dad, and amt we ve have
nave aa thing
thing in10 our cur family,
Family, I3
11]11 don'tdon't know
know where
where it it came
came from, but ifif you
from, but you really
really wanted
wanted
1212 || someone
someone to to == -- they'd
they'd say look atat me,
say look me, look
look atat me.
me. And And II
13|
13 sata,
said, 1'm looking
I'm looking at you,
at you, pal.pal. He He said,
said, promise
promise me, me, dad,
dad,
1414 || give
give me me your
your word word as as a Biden, dad.
a Biden, dad. Give
Give me me your
your word
word you'll
you'll
15|
15 not
not arop
drop out. out. I1 said,
said, Beau, I'm
Beau, 1'm --== hehe said,
said, promise
promise me,me,
16||
16 dad,
dad, GodGod damndamn it, it, promise me,
promise me, dad.
dad. YouYou havehave toto stay
stay
1717 engaged.
engaged. vou
You havehave to to stay
stay engaged,
engaged, promise me.
promise me. That's
That's
16||
18 where
where the the titie
title of the
of the bookbook came
came from.
from.
119 And
And s0 so atat this period ofof time,
this period tire, I'm I'm trying
trying toto
20||20 figure
figure whether
whether or
or not,
not, when when hehe passes,
passes, what what amam II going
going toto dodo
2121 other other than
than whatwhat I'm I'm already
already doing. When
doing. When am am II going
going toto run
run
22||
22 for
for the presidency? And
the presidency? And in in the
the meantime
meantime —- and and II pretty
pretty
23||
23 weil
well decided
decided couldn't handle
I couldn't handle --= I'dI'd stay
stay involved,
involved, I'dT'd
24||
24 keep
keep thethe promise
promise vd be
I'd involved (indiscernible
be involved (indiscernible 0:51:44.3)
0:51:44.3)
25
25 politics.
politics. then --
And then -- II forget
forget the
the date,
date, that's
that's when
when --
--
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11 [0:51:50.7])
[0:51:50.7]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- happened,
Charlottesville happened,
-- Charlottesville
when those
3|| when
3 those forks
folks came out
came out of woods carrying
of thethe woods 1iteraity
careying --—- literally
o| ost
4 out of the £ie1as
of the fields carrying
carrying torches and Nazi
torches and and
suastikas and
Nazi swastikas
55| stnoing
singing the seme
tne same damn anti-senitic bile
dann anti-Semitic hat was
bite that sung inin
was sung
66 Germany in
Germany the early
in the early '30s, accompanied by
'30s, accompanied the Ku
by the Klan
Klux Klan
Ku Klux
77 the head
and the
and of the,
head of the, of
of the Klan.
the Klan. And then aa young
And then woman
young woman
got Killed,
o8f] got killed, spoke toto her
and TI spoke
and her mom.
mom. And uhen I©
that's when
And that's
9 decided that I, I, I, I, I've got to run,RN I've got to be
3810 [| semcinas,
involved, sassssn
because signs, presumptuous
©I thought, presmpriane of58 me, vss
Shue I% was
ee that
11||
11 the antithesis
the antithesis everything
everything that, that
that, this guy
that this sted for,
guy stood and
for, and
12||
12 was —
©I was -- 1I coma
could beat him.
beat him.
113 Jot then 2I got
But ven vim would
weumion what
vonidy worried
gon really bappen to
vould happen
14|
14 the ids,
the kids, how tereible
how terrible they'd
they'd be --— he'd
be with myny
he'd bebe with
15||
15 children.
children. And in
and the meantime,
in the meantime, I© got call from
got aa call from mymy
16||
16 oldest
oldest granddasghter
granddaughter, Naomi, who
, Naomi, was inin her
who was yeas atat
senior year
her senior
17||
17 Columbia Law
Cotumbita Law School,
School, and
and she have aa tradition
she --—- wewe have tradition inin ourour
18 family, a child can ask for a family meeting. It's taken
15||
19 sertousiy.
seriously. can only
1I can think ofof 1010 occasions
only think happened
occasions it's<t's happened
20||
20 since
since 1I was Kid. Bur
was aa kid. when you
But when you come, take itit
you take
come, you
21||
21 sorsousty.
seriously. ant
And soon chat
that was sewing, and
wae a» Thursday, savereRy weve
ans onon Saturday
22 had aa family
22 (| had family meeting. And
meeting. had my
And soso II had three
Hunt's three
my --—- Hunt's
23 daughters
daughters and Beau's
and Beau's two kids, and
two kids, had aa meeting
we had
and we that
in that
meeting in
24||
24 1tmrary
library you saw.
you saw.
225 and they

And, and
And, said, pop,
they said, pop, you run.
got toto run.
you got
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87
11 10:53:34.8)
[0:53:34.8]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Daddy'd

PRESIDENT BIDEN: want you
Daddy'd want you toto run,
run, we
we want
want
3||3 you
you to
to run,
run, et
et cetera.
cetera. BAnd the
And the real
real kicker
kicker was,
was, II said,
said,
4||
4 vers,
well, it's
it's going
going toto bebe mean
mean andand II don't
don't know
know girls,
girls, and
and mymy
5||
5 youngest
youngest son
son is now aa senior
is now senior in high
in high school
school --—- grandson.
grandson. He He
66| said,
said, pop,
pop, we we know
know it's
it's going toto bebe mean,
going mean, and
and hehe opens
opens upup
7||
7 his
his cell
cell phone
phone and there's aa picture
and there's picture of
of me
me walking
walking out
out of
of
o8l Beau's
Beau's funeral
funeral and
and my hand on
my hand on the
the casket
casket and
and the
the flag
flag atat aa
9||
9 miritary
military funeral, very
funeral, very formal.
formal. and II had
And had my
my hand
hand around
around my my
10||
10 1ittle
little son
son - -- grandson,
grandson, and II always
and alvays used
used toto hold
hold Beau
Beau ----
1
11 when
when he
he was
was little,
little, I'd hold
I'd hold him
him by
by the
the chin,
chin, you
you know,
know, when
when
12|
12 walk. And
I walk. And IIwas holding him
was holding him the
the same
same way.
way. And And hehe said,
said,
13||
13 pop,
pop, we
we know
know it's
it's going
going to be mean,
to be mean, and
and hehe shows
shows me,
me, hehe
14
14 said,
said, look,
look, pop,
pop, what
what itit says.
says. And II had
had my hand
hand --
-- they
they
15
15 could
could see
see it was a military
it was military funeral,
funeral, and my
and my arm
arm around
around my
my
16||
16 grandson,
grandson, and
and the bottom line
the bottom was, Biden
line was, Biden molests
molests another
another
17||
17 child.
child. te said,
He said, but pop,
but pop, you've
you've gotgot toto run.
run. Daddy'd
Daddy'd want
want
26||
18 vou
you to to un.
run. That's
That's when
when II decided
decided toto run.run.
1919 So that's when
So that's things began
when things began toto alter
alter inin terms
temms ofof
20||
20 my
my ---- well,
well, II still
still -- Penn
-- Penn provided
providedaa vehiclevehicle forfor that
that asas
21||
21 well,
well, because
because II was
uas aa public
public figure,
figure, invited
invited other
other world
world
22||
22 leaders
leaders around,
around, but that's when
but that's when everything
everything kind kind ofof changed
changed
23||
23 in
in tems
terms ofof what
what II was going toto dodo with
was going with my my life.
life.
2424 II thought
thought you didn't
you didn't need
need toto know know that,
that, but
but maybe
maybe
25||
25 it
it = -- you know, ask
you know, ask questions,
questions, what am
what am II going
going toto dodo with
with --—-
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301-261-1005
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000119
LEDRAFT 88
88
1)1 0:55:01.)
(0:55:01.4]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: ---- the the rest
rest ofof my
my life,
life, that's
that's
3||
3 when
when 1I decided
decided to run.
to run.
44 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Understood.
Understood.
55 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: SorrySorry forfor the
the detail.
detail.
66 MR. HUR: No
MR. HUR: No apology
apology necessary. II think
necessary. think itit now
now
77| might
might be be useful
useful to to take
take aa look
look atat the
the next
next couple
couple tabs
tabs ofof
8||
8 photos
photos of
of the
the Chain Bridge Road
Chain Bridge Road residence.
residence.
99 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Which,Which, which
which tab,
tab, Rob?
Rob?
1010 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: I'm I'm sorry,
sorry, 16 and then
16 and then 17.
17. And And let
let meme
11||
11 give
give some
some context
context for these
for these photos.
photos. So So the
the photos
photos inin tab
tab
12
12 || 16,
16, they
they are Bates Li
are Bates LW 52,52, 53,
53, 54,
54, 5555 and
and 56.
56. These
These were
were
13
13 0:s5:41.2
0:55:41.2
14||
14 taken
taken in in July
July ofof 2019.
2019.
15
15 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yep.Yep
1616 MR. HOR: Before
MR. HUR: Before ---- II think
think soon
soon before
before thethe move
move
17||
17 out
out ofof Chain Bridge Road,
Chain Bridge Road, soso we've
we've fast-forwarded
fast-forwarded some some into
into
18||
18 the
the summer
summer of of 2019.
2019. And then
And then for
for aa comparison,
comparison, the the photos
photos
19||
19 behind
behind tab 17, these
tab 17, these are taken
are taken the
the following
following month
month --
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: The The following,
following, right.
right.
21
21 MR. HUR: ---- after,
MR. HUR: after, after
after --—- yes,
yes, sir,
sir, inin August
August
22||
22 of
of 2019, after some
2019, after things were
some things were moved
moved outout ofof these
these rooms
rooms inin
23||
23 chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road.
Road. And
And thethe ---- just
just forfor the
the record,
record, the
the
24||
24 photos
photos behind tab
behind tab 17 17 are
are Bates'ed
Bates'ed (verbatim)
(verbatim) IM•!P117,
JEST, 119, 119,
25||
25 122,
122, 123,
123, 124.
124. So
So if you, ifif you
if you, you kind
kind ofof flip
£lip through
through --—
CovetD.C.
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DRAFT 0
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11 (0:56:42.3)
[0:56:42.3)
22 Wh.
MR. HR:
HUR: = -- those photos behind
those photos behind tabsab 1616 and
aud 17,17,
33| your1s
you'll see
see thas
that these
there —-- some
some things
things were
were moved
moved outout --—
.4 sxesrom roe: Yep.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: veo.
s5 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- in July
-- in 2019.
July 2019. And so
And so the
the things
things that
that
66 were
were moved
moved out
out were that filing
were that filing cabinet
cabinet that
that we
we were
were talking
talking
77 about
about --
--
.8 sngszom szoev: Yep.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: ep.
s9 MR. EO
HUR: -- a few minutes ago, some prints and
10]10 shotoszaphe
photographs that were onon thethe wall
that were wall —
u11 ereszoma roe: Yep.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: ve.
212 WE.
MR. WB:
HUR: == and aa printer.
-- and printer. So5 withvith that
war context,
commen,
12]13 tot
let me
me back
back up
up aa Little
little bit
bit toto ask,
ask, inin July
Guly ofof 2019,
2015, when,
when,
14
14 when
when things
things were
were being moved out
being moved out of
of the
the Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road
Road
15|
15 none,
home, hows
how, how
how involved
involved vere you inin that?
were you that? What
What didaid you
you know
know
16|
16 spout
about tnatz
that?
=17 PRESTOENT TIEN: What

PRESIDENT BIDEN: What got
got moved
maved out,
aut, what
whet --== thethe
18 furniture, I was very involved.
19 A
MR. HUR: Very involved,— okay.
2020 A
PRESIDENT BIDEN: In terms of what ——
was moved out.
21 MR. HUR: Yes, sir.
»22 PRESIOENT
PRESIDENT SIGEN:
BIDEN: ReasonReason being,
being, II thought
thought itit was was
23|
23 saportant
important to set
to set up the lake
up the lake house
house inin thethe final
fined form,
form, whatwhat
20|
24 stit outa
would Look
look Like,
like, ana toto make
and make sure that wewe had
sure that had thethe down
dom —
25||
25 because
because —-- downstairs
downstairs asas well,
well, because
because we're
we're going
going inin now
now —
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11 [0:57:46.1)
[0:57:46.1]
2 PRESIDENT EIDEN: -- well, when did I announce for
3 President?
4 MR. KRICKEAUM: May of --
; 55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: 2019.
2019.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: 2019.
2019.
77 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: So several
So months before
several months before the
the move
move out.
out.
8 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yeah. And the reason was,
9 remember, when the pandemic had started to kick in, and so I
10 knew, if you notice, a -- and I don't blame them. They,
11 they -- the quick criticism of me, Biden should go back in
12 his tunnel and campaign from in his basement again. But I
13 -- what we did, we set up a theater in Delaware where I
14 could, I could go on television from, I could appear, I
15 could do -- and so I used -- I needed some of that furniture
16
16 in
in Delaware.
Delaware. And so that's what
so that's what II picked
picked out
out to
to send
send to
to
17 Delaware, for that reason, because we were campaigning out
18 of our basement --
19 MR. HUR: I see.
20 PRESIDENT EIDEN: -- basically, kind of.
21
21 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: So with
So with respect
respect to
to that
that filing
filing cabinet,
cabinet,
22 why, why did you pick that particular piece of furniture to
23 go to Wilmington?
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, well, because it -- there
25 was no sense in leaving it, and it could -- I knew the --
EEFREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 roses.)
[0:58:50.1]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- place place itit could
could fitfit inin the
the
3||
3 house
house in in that
that comer.
corner.
‘4 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay. And when
And when itit was was moved
moved out out ofof
5||
5 chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road
Road to to the lake house,
the lake house, whatwhat was
was inin that
that
66 eine
filing —
--
’7 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: II have have nono idea.
ides.
s8 MR.
MR. HUR:HOR: Okay.
Okay.
59 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: II assumeassume itit was was inin itit when
when itit
10||
10 got
got to to thethe lake house. II don't
lake house. dont know.
know.
n11 MR.
MR. BUR:HUR: And when itit was
And when was moved
moved outout ofof Chain
Chain
12||
12 Bridge
Bridge Road
Road and and taken
taken to to Wilmington,
Wilmington, did did you
you dodo any
any ofof that
that
13||
13 process
process II talked
talked about earlier,
about earlier, the the culling,
culling, the the purging,
purging,
14||
14 the
the --
1515 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: No. No.
116 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: -- —- saying,
saying, II don'tdon't need need this,
this, II don't
don't
17|
17 need
need that.that.
118 PRESTOENT
119 MR.
MR. HUR:HOR: Okay.
Okay.
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Because
Because itit wasn't
wasn't --— itit was
was just
just
21||
21 — itit wasn't
wasn't in in the
the way.
way. II mean,
mean, itit would
would take
take moremore time
time toto
22
22 (| dodo that,
that, to throw
to stuff out
throw stuff out that
that II want
want toto throw
throw out out than
than itit
23||
23 sitting
sitting there
there in the
in the file
file cabinet,
cabinet, you you knowknow what
what II mean.
mean.
224 MR.
MR. HUR:BUR: Do Do you
you knowknow ifif the
the contents
contents werewers removed
removed
25||
25 from
from the the filefile cabinet?
cabinet? In other
In other words,
words, was was itit emptied
emptied toto --—-
Court
Court Reporting.Transcription
5.0" Rees 301-261-1902

Sor61-3508
D.C. Area
I
cosmo
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000123
EE over
DRAFT 2
92
11 [0:59:45.0]
[0:59:45.0]
22 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: --
-- make it lighter
make it lighter to move --
to move
s3 SRESIOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: I1 have
have nono idea.
idea.
4 MR. HUR: -- or was it moved full? Okay.
55 SACRO BIO.I guess

PRESIDENT BIDEN: guess itSh == they Shs probably
preBSRLY
66| rocked
locked ene the cabinet
cabinet and put
and put itit intn aa truck.
truck. I1 don't
dont knowknow
77| chosen.
though. ©I denre
don't xmow.
know. .
8. We.
MR. HR: Snything else
HUR: Anything else onon thethe move
move outout ofof Chain
Chain
o9| seicge
Bridge nosar
Road? nor
No? okay.
Okay. So atat this
So this point,
point, IT would
wound want
vant toto
10||10 anise
shift geass
gears to to aa separate
separate property, the,
property, the, thethe lake
lake house.
house.
»11 PRESIDENT —— BIDEN: Okay.
2
12 Wh. OR: You,
MR. HUR: You, you talked some
you talked some about
shout that,
that, butbut I'd10
12]13 1x6
like to to sotusn
return to that
to that right
ign now.nov.
214 SR
PRESIDENT BIDEN: All right. —
15 i
MR. 0BHUR: 0 And now ITm know you go know thisSHER house
9B very THE
16
16 well,
well, but
but maybe
maybe for the photos
for me the photos would
would be
be helpful.
helpful.
”17 eRESIUENT BIDEN: Sure.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Sure. No,
So, helpful
helpful toto meme too.
too.
18 MR. HUR: So there are some photographs of the
19 Wilmington lake house behind tab 2.
2020 Ji.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Behind
Behind - diddid you
you saysay behind
behind tabtab 2?27
n21 I
MR. HUR: Tab 2, yes.
2222 Wh.
MR. TRUER: Olay, thank
BAUER: Okay, thank you.
you.
223 un
MR. oR:
HUR: and
And so
so
225 WR.
MR. HOR: == these
HUR: -- these photos,
photos, Bates
Sates 20230120
Z0230120_TIA
JLH 0173.
0173.

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
|
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000124
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11 (2:00:50.71
[1:00:50.7]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep.Yep.
33 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- ending 182,
-- ending 182, ending
ending 183,
183, ending
ending 188,
188,
4||
4 ending
ending 177,
177, ending 171.
ending 171.
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yep.Yep.
66 MR. HOR: So
MR. HUR: So II believe
believe that these
that these are
are photographs
photographs
7||7 of
of the
the room
room you were calling
you were calling the
the a
usss before?
before?
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yes.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yes.
99 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay.
10 10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II just

PRESIDENT BIDEN: wanted you
just wanted you toto know
know II
11||
11 picked
picked out
out thethe walnut
walnut tree that got
tree that got cut
cut down.
down. II found
found the
the
12||
12 guy
guy whowho did
did Wintertree
Wintertree (phonetic) Museum
(phonetic) Museum Library,
Library, II picked
picked
13||
13 out
out thethe craftsman
craftsman to come
to come do do this
this ---- this
this room
room cost
cost one-
one-
14||
14 third
third of
of the
the entirety
entirety of
of mymy entire
entire home.
home. SwearSwear toto God.
God.
15
15 VR. HOR: Well
MR. HUR: Well -—-
16 16 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Anyway, and
BIDEN: Anyway, and it's
it's —-
1717 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: = -- it looks like
it looks like it.it.
18 18 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: It's not
It's mot --
19
19 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: It's It's very
very impressive.
impressive.
20
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: IfIf you
PRESIDENT BIDEN: you look
look up up here,
here, there's
there's
21
21 | seven
seven different
different individual pieces
individual pieces of, of, ofof ----
22
22 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Molding.
Molding.
2323 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- molding.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: molding. Anyway,
Anyway, II got
got aa
24
24 1ittle
little carried
carried away.
away.
25
25 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay.
Couet D.C.
Reporting Mranscripeion
Area 301-261-1902
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
OLHICHUR000125
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000125
— DRAFT
rrr 5
94
11 [1:01:42.0)
[1:01:42.0]
22 eRESTOENT BIOEN: But

PRESIDENT BIDEN: But okay.
okay.
53 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So
So you mentioned before
you mentioned before inin talking
talking about
about
44 this
this zoom, there are
room, there some filing
are some filing cabinets, oror drawers,
cabinets, drawers,
s||
5 rather
rather --

Yes.
77 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: =-- in
in it.
it. So
So I think if we
think if we look at the
look at the
88 fest
first photo bentnd
photo behind tab
tab 22 ending
ending in 173,
in 173, I1 think
think there's
there's aa
2]9 son
set of comers nentnt
of drawers behind ene doors
the dues on the semienane
on the left-hand sede.
side.
10 Well,
Well, you
you know what,
what, instead
instead of my muddling
of muddling through
through it
it this
this
11||
11 vay,
way, why don't we
why don't we go
go to the photos
to the photos behindbehind tab
tab 3.3.
PRESIDENT BIOEN: TabTab what?
what?
1313 wr.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Tab
Tab --
114 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Behind
Behind tab 3.
tab 3.
1515 ML
MR. HOR: Tab 3,3, yes.
HUR: Tab yes.
116 WR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Okay.
Okay.
v17 PRESIDENT BIGEN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yah. Now, Now, you
you know
know what
what that
that
380) 35is wn-- os
18 you 90
go treet
back 00 wats --= thesie first
to tab Fane page
age ot wee
of the 90 back
-- go ne
1919 toto can
tab --
220 MR.
MR. STSKEL:
SISKEL: Two?
Two?
221 eResToBNT BIOBN:

PRESIDENT BIDEN: ~~ 2.2.
--
222 WL
MR. UR: Yep.
HUR: Yep.
223 BRESIDENT BIDEN:

PRESIDENT BIDEN: AndAnd go go to the second
to the second photograph.
photograph.
2124 WR. BUR: Ending
MR. HUR: Ending inin 182?1627
225 erestoaT
PRESIDENT BIoEN:
BIDEN: 102.
182.
CourtReporting.Transcription
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eyTranscription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000126
I ORAFT
DRAFT 95
95
. sr snwe
11 [1:02:46.7]
[1:02:46.7]
: ts vam £2pve th inet

2}sirsntinssesomdes rp ec eonsee 2 ce
3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: If you look to the left -- if
2| wewe ese ror mien ts 72

4 you're sitting at the desk and you look to the left, I can't
5 quite see it, but that whole section between the flag and
6
| — usss
. ssssins=aoi aoe itn oe

77 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Yes, sir.
Yes, sir.
oom
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: that are those doors that
# wn
9 open up
poresmmm = hap nnoni

10 MR. HUR: I see.
stl te snare omio282 0 TREE4290

11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- and they open on the bottom
12 soonapnso ti, 20 mien 0 300cn

12 too. So there's -- the top opens to shelving, and the
11] a somSickoth wm dl
13 bottom opens to filing. So the bottom -- so when you open
25 sreon hesek 30sssha sn pens

14 this up, the first -- the door on the -- the first door
1) etn wt St te oSSEE
15 there on the left, you see where there's a printer and
; oeseisensi
16 there's a what do they call it, the machine that --
. SS
17 MR. SISKEL: Fax machine.
. BA
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: A fax machine.
" sssSee thstm 3

14]wire2arvesaeores Tesi eHetn

20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And then this -- the thing
(28 scans msam ran mcg ©feoSrvc

21 below, I don't use anymore. I never used the -- you can
| ee co
22 photographs, you can enlarge photographs. I think that's
" ere
23 what that's for.
rons ooee
goats100te Wenain
24 MR. HUR: Okay.
ERI
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And there's the one file --
RAS
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000127
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11 @:03:38.9)
[1:03:39.9]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ~-- drawer
drawer on on the
the bottom.
bottom.
33 MR. HUR:
MR. HOR: Yes, Yes, sir.
sir.
44 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And then
then toto the
the left,
left, there's
there's
5[|
5 a1
all thethe stute
stuff for the
for printer and,
the printer and, you
you know,
know, thethe ---- it's
it's inkink
66| and
and stuff.
stuff. And
And thenthen what
what II have
have up up top
top are
are ---- II don't
don't havehave
77| aa magnifying
magnifying glass now,
glass now, but these are
but these are probably
probably the the speeches
speeches
8|
8 that
that 1I kept
kept that that II would refer toto and
would refer and use
use for
for other
other reasons.
reasons.
9||
9 And
And then
then up up top,
top, youyou have
have thethe first
first book
book II met
met ---- II wrote,
wrote,
10||
10 and
and the
the second
second book, book, and other books
and other books that,
that, that
that II ---- the
the
11||
11 reason
reason they're
they're there, ifif someone
there, someone wanted
wanted aa signed
signed copy,
copy, I'd I'd
12
12 || be
be able
able to to reach
reach one one instead
instead of going
of going upup inin the
the attic
attic and and
13||
13 get it. And,
get it. And, and and the other side
the other side are folders that
are folders that are
are
14|[
14 probably
probably related
related to ---- just
to just I'mI'm not
not sure.
sure. Anyway
Anyway --
15
15 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. That's --—-
That's
16
16 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ThatThat -- -- and
and there's
there's ==
17
17 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: That's
That's very helpful.
very helpful.
18
18 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- aa little
little drawer
drawer above
above there
there
19||
19 that has
that has -- -- I'd have keys
I'd have keys in in itit or miscellaneous stuff
or miscellaneous stuff in, in,
20||
20 in the drawer.
in the drawer.
21
21 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. So I'd
So I'd like
like toto focus
focus onon the,
the, thethe
22
22 | drawer
drawer —- II think think you may
you may be be looking
looking atat thethe photograph
photograph
23||
23 ending
ending in in 127.
127.
20
24 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yep.Yep.
25
25 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: ThatThat drawer
drawer that's
that's open
open there
there --—-
oust
Court Reporcing. Feancézipcion
D.C. Azea 301-261-1802
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000128
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97
11 [1:04:55.3] 3)
:04:55.
22 MR. HOR: --
MR. HUR: towards the
-- towards bottom.
the bottom.
33 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep. Yep.
44 MR. HUR: And
MR. HUR: And it closer-in shot
there's aa closer-in
it ---- there's shot ofof itit
55| in the
in next photo,
the next photo, 128.
128.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep. Yep.
77 HUR: So,
MR. HUR:
MR. So, so whose files
so whose are kept
files are here?
kept inin here?
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: My files.
My files.
99 MR. HUR:
MR. Okay. Anyone
HUR: Okay. else's? Did
Anyone else's? Did Dr. Biden
Dr. Biden
10||
10 keep anything
keep anything in here?
in here?

PRESIDENT don't believe
BIDEN: II don't so.
believe so.
1212 MR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HOUR: Okay.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Matter was, itit
fact, ifif itit was,
Matter ofof fact,
14||
14 was aa pure
was pure accident that itit got
accident that there.
got there.
15 15 MR. HUR:
MR. Okay. And
HUR: Okay. And the materials inin here,
the materials are
here, are
16||
16 they --
they were they
-- were official, work
they official, personal, aa mix
related, personal,
work related, mix --
PRESIDENT BIDEN: They were mine.
They were Whatever the
mine. Whatever the
18||
18 they were,
hell they
hell they were
were, they mine.
were mine.
13
19 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay.
HUR: Okay.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, No, I'm facetious.
being facetious.
not being
I'm not
21||
21 Whether they
Whether official, , not
were official
they were official, they
not official, mine.
were mine.
they were
22
22 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay.
HOR: Okay.
PRESIDENT mean, II ---- and
BIDEN: II mean, don't know
and II don't know
24||
24 what they
what they were though.
were though.
2525 MR.
MR. HUR: Um-hum.
HOR: Um-hum.
Reportin
CourtD.C. g Transcription
Arca 301-261-1502
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COLHICHUR0000120
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DRAFT 9
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1 [1:05:41.1]
2 PRESIDENT EIDEN: For example, one is a
3 fundraising from 2020 campaign.
4 MR. HUR: Yep. And there's a closer shot of it on
5 the next photo in -- ending in 130.
6 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yeah. Okay, yeah. All right.
77| So, you know

So, you know -- and that
-- and is something,
that is something, ifif you
you ever
ever run
run for
for
8 office, you've got to keep.
9 MR. HUR: That will never happen, sir.
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's what I said. Okay.
11 MR. HUR: so on this -- maybe looking at this
12 photograph ending in 130, there are -- well, actually,
13 before
before we, we talk
talk about
about this,
this, how often
often were you in
were you in and
and out
out
14 of this drawer?
15 PRESIDENT EIDEN: I have no idea.
16 MR. HUR: Focusing on the time when you were --
17 after your the end of your vice presidency, but before
18 you became President.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, this -- the stuff that's
20 in here, the -- not very often. For example, something went
21||
21 |sh
wrong
wrong usss I'd have
, I'd have -- this first
-- this first thing
thing isis
22 usss , okay, and usss
23
23| usss
usss TH Then
Then some
some of this stuff
of this stuff would
would be
be ---- II
24 can't read it, but -- because what I constantly do, what
25 drives everybody crazy with me, I'm constantly making --

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000130
orc
I DRAFT 99
99
11 [1:07:04.1).1]
[1:07:04
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- changes to the house. Even
3 when usss , I've made
4 changes to the house. Okay. We're going to do that, you're
5 going to knock out that wall and put it in this way kind of
66 thing.
thing. So -- really,
So II -- really, I'm -- this
I'm -- is my
this is baby, my
my baby, hostage,
my hostage,
7 my, my interest. And so what would be in here is, for
8 example -- does that say bookshelves? I'm not -- I can't
9 read it.
10 Anyway -- and the other thing that could be in
11 here, and it wouldn't have been in here until I was living
12 -- until Chain Bridge Road was finished -- I mean, I
13 wouldn't be having would be -- I'm terrible, that's why I
14 have an accountant and a person that pays my bills. When I
15 sold the book, I made a lot of money. I mean, it truly
16 stunned me, because the first book sold as many copies and
17 was the best seller list, but they never promoted it. But
18 they came and started asking me to -- would, would I do an
19 event, talk about the book at the such-and-such book club or
20 the -- on Wall not Wall Street -- in New York City, et
21 cetera. And I started getting invitations from all over the
22 world to come and talk about my book, and they'd have 1,000
23 people show up, and they'd all buy a book and pay a fee to
24 come in. I ended up making more money on the sale of that
25 book than I made my whole life. And I gave -- I was able --
Reporting . Transcription
Court Reporting
Cones Transézipeion
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
| DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000131
EE vv
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100
11 (1:08:41.9])
[1:08:41.9]
2
2 SRESIORNT BIDEN: --~~ toto give
PRESIDENT BIDEN: ive aa million
millicn dollars
dollars
3| sway
3 away to
to charity.
charity. 1rve always
I've wanted toto dodo that.
always wanted thar. I1 gave
gave
44 $1,100,000
$1,100,000 to
to charity.
charity.
s5 a0 the pent
And the point Tm making
I'm nening isio that
thet it2 was
van allWAL brand
bran
6 new to me. And so that's when I -- I remember meeting with
77 Colin
Colin Powell
Powell and
and Chuck Hagel.
Chuck Ragel. They
They wanted
wanted to
to see
see me.
me. He
He
of|
8 sate,
said, shoud
should we we tors
tell nim, Chuck.
him, chuck. Hehe said,
said, look,
100k, here's
here's thethe
5|]
9 su
guy = -- vewe sosommens
recommend the sotLoning accountant
the following aczovmsans forfox you,
you. and
su wewe
10|10 recommend
recommend the €o1ioutng person
the following person that
that would,
would, you
you know,
know, pay
pay thethe
12||11 vi11s
bills every
every month.
month. and
And now they wanted
now they wanted meme toto invest
tavest money.
mene.
12][12 tooy
They saisaid, yourss
you'll ve vie
be able --== vinyLa
they'll nave --=e create
have coats anun
13||13 sovestment
investment dea.
idea. II didn't
didn't vant toto invest
want invest anything.
anything. II
14
14 didn't
didn't want
want to
to have
have any conflict as
any conflict as aa senator.
senator. So II don't
So don't
28||
15 oun
own 5a stats
stock ozor a2 Beret shins I'm
bond that Tm aware
sues of.of. Now,
wow, my,
9, my
16]|16 oonsion,
pension, they
they have
have --== IT guess
guess they
they purchased
purshesed stocks
stocks and
ant
17]17 bonds.
bonds. But
But I never
never wanted
wanted toto have
nave any
any argument.
azsumest. YouYou know
kaow
18 how evolved this thing is? The thing I valued most my whole
1919 1510,
life, nymy remmatson
reputation ant tnteprity. So50 I1 never
and integrity. never ever
ever wanted
uanses
25
20 veto rave
have snysming
anything wnat someone
that soswons said,
satu, you
yo bought
seg that wes stock
sven
2121 and
and 16 it went
went upup because
because you traded.
you traded. Never diddid that.
Never that.
=22 50So whet
what IT would
would do,doy I'dTd keep
beep these
these little
litle skinny
shiny
23]|23 ~-- amy ness
guess 1s these shinny
is these skinny notebooks I© have
notebooks nave here,
nese, were
were
24]|24 probanty
probably nosescoks,
notebooks, the xing binders
the ring binders --
2s25 ie
MR. 0 HUR: Yasin
Yeah.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000132
IDRAFT 101
101
11 n:10:s.8
[1:10:15.8)
2
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: --~-- were were probably
probably notebooks
notebooks on on
33| finances.
finances.
44 MR. HUR:
MR. HOR: Are Are you you ---- which
which photophoto are
are you
you looking
looking
55|| at right
at right now,
now, sir?
sir
6
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm I'm looking
looking atat 0130,0130, andand —-
77 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: 0130,0130, okay.
okay. So So wewe actually
actually have
have a,a, aa
8||
8 better shot
better shot ofof these
these notebooks
notebooks once once they've
they've been removed.
been removed.
9||
9 The next
The next page,
page, 131,
131, shows
shous the the hand
hand ofof an FBI agent
an FBI agent taking
taking
10||
10 them out.
them out.
1n11 PRESIDENT BIDEN;

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay. Okay.
1212 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: And And thenthen in 132, the
in 132, the following
following
13||
13 photograph, shows
photograph, them —-
shows them --
1
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN;
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay. Okay.
15
15 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -- laid laid out
out onon the
the ground.
ground. The The label
label on on
16||
16 the
the middle
middle is is aa little
little bit bit shiny,
shiny, butbut they they say,
say, from
from left
left toto
17||
17 right, Obama/Biden
right, Obama/Biden -- I'll
-- I'll havehave toto look
look up up what
what the label
the label
18 ||
18 there says.
there says. And And then
then lastly,
lastly, foreign
foreign policy.
policy.
1919 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah.
20
20 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: So So these,
these, these
these contain
contain your notes -—-
your notes
21
21 some of
some of your notes from
your notes from the the time
time that
that you you were Vice
were Vice
22||
22 president.
President.
2323 PRESIDENT
2
24 MR. HUR:
MR. HOR: Oh, Oh, I'm I'm sorry,
sorry, ifif you you see
see inin ---- ending
ending
25||
25 131, that second
131, that second notebook
notebook also also says
says foreign
foreign policy
policy on on it.
it.
FREEReporting
Court
Transcription
INC.
D.C. Area
Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1508
D.C.
|]
OLHICHUR0000133
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000133
TE DRAFT
oo 202
102
11 [1:11:25.7)
[1:11:25.7]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. Okay.
3 MR. HUR: So do, do you recognize these notebooks
4 from -- as being ones that you used during your vice
5 presidency?
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I, I used notebooks. I guess I
77 can't
can't swear
swear that
that II know
know each
each one
one of
of them
them or
or ---- but,
but, yes, II
yes,
8 mean, these are books that I would, I would keep notes in.
9 MR. HUR: Okay. And do you how did these
10 notebooks get in this particular drawer?
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm sure they were in whatever
12 it was when it got shipped when the stuff that they
13 shipped up, or it was already in there from before. Look,
14 during the period that I was a senator and Vice President, I
15 did a lot of work from, from the lake. I'd have meetings at
16 the lake. If you notice, you're in there -- I think the FBI
17||
17 was
was in
in there.
there. There ===[SE
There are usss and
and
10|
18 SSI
usss So
So I'd have meetings.
I'd have And soso what
meetings. And what II
19 would do instead of me getting on the train and go down for
20 the 499th time, I'd have the staff come to me and we'd have
21 the meetings in Delaware and/or we'd have telephone
22 conferences, or you may remember, on -- I think on my desk,
-| usss
“
23
24 usss
25
25 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: -79 {phonetic),
(phonetic), yeah.
yeah.
Court
Court Reporting.
Reporting Transeripeion
Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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IE DRAFT 103
103
11 [1:12:51.7] n
nazisi
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- And so
-- -EE And that's --—- II
so that's
33| could have very
could have very well been doing
well been these from
doing these well,
Delaware asas well,
from Delaware
44 so
so they
they may
may have never left.
have never left. II don'tdon't know. know. Never
Never leftleft
5||
5 peravare,
Delaware, 1I mean.
mean.
66 MR. HUR: II see.

MR. HUR: see. So just
So just toto bebe clear
clear ---- just
just toto
77| make
make sure understand nd what
sure II understa what you're
you're saying,
saying, the the notebooks
notebooks
88 could've
could've found
found theirtheir way into this
way into this drawer
drawer either
either because
because
9||
9 that's
that's where
where theythey were when you
were when you were conducting business
were conducting business
10||
10 from
from thethe lake
lake house
house --
111 PRESIDENT
1212 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- -- during
during the the vice presidency.
vice presidency.
313 PRESIDENT
14
14 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Or Or they
they could've
could've been been shipped
shipped here
here oror
15||
15 boxed
boxed up up and brought toto the
and brought the lake
lake house.
house.
16 16 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: It's It's ---- the the latter's
latter's unlikely
unlikely ifif
17|[
17 they're
they're all
all books
books from from the,the, you
you know,
know, '13 '13 and
and '14
'14 ---=
18
18 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes, Yes, sir.sir.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: It's, It's, it'sit's likely
likely they've
they've been been
20|
20 there.
there.
21
21 MR. HUR:
MR. HOUR: Okay.
Okay.
22
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: That That they
they would've
would've never
never leftleft
23||
23 there.
there. Now, obviously, , the
Now, obviously the March
March 2020 fundraising thing,
2020 fundraising thing,
24||
24 that
that gotgot there
there after
after the fact.
the fact. AndAnd ---- but but ---- soso there's
there's aa
25||
25 combination.on.
combinati II mean,
mean, there's
there's ---- I'm I'm suresure there's
there's ---- II --—-
FREE STATE
REPORTING, INC.
INC.
Court Reporting
Court Reporting Transeript
Transcription ion
D.C. Area
D.C. 301-261-1502
Area 301-261-1902
I
DOLHICHUR0000135
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000135
LIDRAFT 104
104
1) (1:14:04.9]
1 (:14:00.9)
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: -- -- can't,
can't, II can't
can't swear
swear how
how theythey
33| got
got there,
there, butbut itit was
was ---- II guess
guess II was was thinking
thinking thatthat I'dI'd --
44 if IT had
if had toto bet
bet and
and the
the Lord
Lord Almighty
Almighty came down
came down and
and said
said II
55|| know
know the
the answer
answer and
and your
your life
life depends
depends on it,
on it, II guess
guess that
that
66|| they
they had
had been
been there
there maybe
maybe during
during that that period
period inin 2014.
2014. II
77| took
took itit outout and
and took
took itit down
down on on the
the train
train with with meme toto take
take
88| notes.
notes. II don'tdon't -- butbut mymy guess
guess is they were
is they were keptkept there.
there.
9s MR. HUR: And
MR. HUR: And would there --
would there who, who
-- who, who would
would have
have
10|| placed
10 placed the notebooks inin this
the notebooks this particular
particular drawer?drawer?
1
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Probably
Probably me. me.
12
12 MR. HUR: Would
MR. HUR: Would itit havehave been
been anyone
anyone -- -- okay.
okay.
13
13 During the
During the time
time that
that you were Vice
you were Vice President,
President, did did
14||
14 anyone else
anyone put things
else put things into these drawers?
into these drawers?
15
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm I'm sure
sure they
they did.did. I'mI'm sure
sure it it
16||
16 happened, but
happened, but II don't
don't ---- you
you know,
know, after
after aa meeting,
meeting, we'd
we'd
17||
17 have and
have we'd go
and we'd go onon the
the porch
porch and and have
have lunch
lunch andand they'd
they'd file file
18|| my
18 my stuff
stuff andand put
put itit in these folders
in these folders or drawers. But
or drawers. But I,I, IT
19|| can't
19 can't swear
swear to to that.
that. AndAnd there's
there's another
another -- there's
-- there's twotwo
20|| other
20 other file
file drawers.
drawers.
21
21 MR. HUR:
MR. Yes.
HUR: Yes.
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: The The next
next (indiscernible
(indiscernible
23
23 1:15:13.2).
1:15:13.2).
24
24 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: That's
That's the next
the tab. So
next tab. So why
why don't
don't we we
25||
25 move onto
move onto -- that's
that's aa good
good segue
segue -- toto the the photos
photos behind
behind --
courtReporeing. Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1502

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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we 208
105
11 (1:15:21.3)
(1:15:21.3]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- tab 4.
-- tab 4. And so
And so these
these are
are photos
photos that begin
that begin
3||
3 with
with Bates
Bates 20230120_FBI_151
20230120 FBI 151 —-
5 MR. HUR: -- and goes -- includes 152, 153, 155,
66 156,
156, 158,
158, and
and 161.
161.
,
7 mason som ve.
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Yep.
MR. HUR: So let's
| shores, 1st.
8 start with the first of these
9 photos, 151.
11 MR. HUR: Is this another filing drawer within
12 that --
14 MR. HUR: -- same formal library?
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: At the other end
16 MR. HUR: Okay.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- of the library.
18 MR. HUR: And so this one, instead of the printer
19 and the fax machine above it --
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The television.
21 MR. HUR: this one has the TV. So what kinds
22 of things did you keep in here?
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't remember. They're
24 probably more personal, but I don't remember.
25 MR. HUR: Okay. And is this open drawer in
ELFREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

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106
11 {1:16:17.5)
(1:16:17.5]
2 MR. HUR: -- photo 151, is this also one that,
3 that your materials were in, or was anyone else's
4 material
6 MR. HUR: -- in this drawer?
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENTBIDEN: No.
No. Nobody
Nobody else's
else's material.
material.
8 MR. HUR: Okay. All right. So we get a little
9 bit closer up in 152, and even closer in 153.
11 MR. HUR: And if you look at 153, there's a binder
12 there that says Corvette.
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Oh, yeah.
14 MR. HUR: And a binder --
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay. Now, I have stuff in
16 there. I remember this.
17 MR. HUR: Okay.
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I had all materials of things
19 that mattered to me personally, like the Corvette, the one I
20 did with Jay Leno.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You know, I, I kept all the
23 material relating to the Corvette because I -- my dad ran a
24 dealership, he was able to give me as a wedding gift for my
25 wife and I because he could afford the payments. He was
cellsomone,
me
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000138
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11 (1:17:17.9)
[1:17:17.9]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- the manager; he didn't own
33 it.
it. He
He couldn't
couldn't afford
afford aa big
big gift,
gift, but
but he
he could
could afford
afford the
the
4 payments. And it was $5700 and I have all the material from
5||5 it. II have,

have, like, the original
original key
key ring,
ring, the
the original
original ----
I
it. like, the
6 anyway. And I got offered $144,000 for it because it's
77 original.
original. So
So --
-- but that's not
but that's not the
the reason,
reason, but
but II have
have all
all
8 the stuff about the Corvette. There's probably photographs
9 in there, my guess, of the Corvette. I'm not positive.
10 And what's the other one say? Can anybody read
11 the first one?
12
12 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Does that
Does that say
say major?
major?
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Major it probably is.
»
14 oR: dntert should have
MR. HUR: Water? I should have it. But ann.
But anyhow.
15
15 MS. COTTON:
MS. COTTON: Major Speeches
Major Speeches is
is what
what II read.
read.
16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Major --
17 MR. HUR: Major speeches.
19 MR. HUR: Okay. Thank you.
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. And so what probably
21 happened there was I -- you know, there would be -- stuff
22 would end up being left on that -- on the conference table
23 at the other end and things like that, and so I'm sure that
24 I've gone through that top of that desk and said, no, this
EA
25 -- file this and file that stuff that was left on top of --
— onesie
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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| S—
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108
1)1 11:18:20.5]
[1:18:29.5] |
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- thethe desk.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: desk. I'm,
I'm I'm,
I'm, I'mI'm
3| mot
3 not every
every tine,
time, but on occasion,
but on occasion, that's
that's what
what I£ would
would dodo toto
4 44 clear
clear that
that desk
desk off.
off. And, and
And, and some
some of
of this
this stuff
stuff isis more
more
5| porsonsi.
5 personal. 1I dente
don't neve
have aa magnifying
magnifying glass,
glass, butbut thisthis drawer
draver
66 that
that opens
opens --
’7 w=.
MR. He vesh.
HUR: Yeah.
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- the next page, 155. I'm sure
o| =a 101
9 lot of
of theres
that's --
! 10
10 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Yeah, 155,
Yeah, 155, it's
it's hard
hard to
to see.
see.
u11 SIRHIOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BES I'm EA sure
was a# lotJon ofof that's
Shane
1212 peseonst
personal svuse.
stuff. von know,
You wow, like,
ike. thethe house
mouse andamt --= youyou know,
How,
13|
13 tor
for example,
example, there's
there's so damn
so damn many
many different
different contractors
contractors I've1've
| 14||
14 used
used about,
about, you
you know, who's, who's
know, who's, who's going
going toto fix
fix that
that ---- put
put
15]15 the
the sootroof on on that,
that, shat pump
that pup house
house that's
sates outside
outside there,
there, youyou
16|
16 inom,
know, ant and whats
what's going
going toto happen
happen with
with thethe change
change upwp --— youyou
17]|17 vow,
know, sor for ormmpte,
example, wben
when I© bought
none thatmst property,
property, thatther house
mouse
16]18 atat the
the top top thet
that you you — you know,
-- you know, that
that --— where
where thethe Secret
secret
15|
19 service
Service saz
is?
»
20 =.
MR. smHUR: Yes, vem, sir.ix.
n21 FRESIOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: SICEN: Well,Well, that
thet wasves about
shunt
22|| three-quarters
22 three-quarters asas 1ong
long --—- not
not --—- maybe
maybe two-thirds
tuo-tnires asas longLong asas
23||23 1%it 10is now.
now. and And 20 whet happened
so what nagpened was vas when
when my,
ay, when
when myay mom
mom
24||
24 mymy dat
dad got got zenreal sick sick andand I2 wanted
wanted them
them toto sellsell their
thei house
house
25||
25 and
and movemove n in with
with me, me, andend mymy mother
mother would
would never
never --— even even --—
A
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
- * 'DOJ-HIC-HUR-0000140
EE DRAFT
i
109
11 (1:19:47.9)
[1:19:47.9)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- though I did the whole
3 downstairs thing, my mother, when my dad died, moved back to
4 her house by herself, and I convinced her to come and live
5||5 with
with me.
me. She
She said,
said, well,
well, riding down
riding down the
the driveway,
driveway, and
and she
she
6 said how about that place there, how about making a little
7||7 cottage
cottage for
for me.
me. Well, it had
Well, it been aa big
had been big garage,
garage, itit had
had been
been
8 a barn for the property, the original property. So I have
9 all kinds of plans and things that are
10 And so -- but there's, .like, nine different
11 contractors I used here, different things. So my guess is
12 in that drawer there's a lot of things having to do with the
13 property, having to do with the right-of-ways, having to do
14 with the -- all the signatures I had to get to change to be
15 able to put the second story on, that kind of stuff.
16 MR. HUR: I see.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: But I'm not positive. I'd have
18 to go look at it. That's my guess.
19 MR. HUR: Yes, sir. so if you look at the photo
20 ending in 153, and then at
21 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. Yep.
22 MR. HUR: Yeah, 153, you'll see that there's a
23 number sort of in the middle of the drawer. There are
24 notebooks that are spiral bound
25
Yep.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000141
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7st 110
110
11 enon
[1:21:01. 7]
2 MR. HUR: -- that have black covers on them. And
33 then if you
then if go aa couple
you go couple pages further in
pages further the tab,
in the ending
so ending
tab, so
4 in 156, this is a photograph of that stack of notebooks laid
| 5||
5 out on
out the ground.
on the ground.
66 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Gotcha.
Gotcha.
| 77 MR. HUR: And

MR. HUR: And so
so they
they have
have ---- some
some of
of them
them have
have
88 labels
labels on
on them.
them. One of them
One of them says
says Af/Pak
Af/Pak 1;
1; one
one of
of them
them says
says
o9| batty
Daily Homo:
Memo; one one of of them says Foreign
them says Foretan Policy
Folicy onon thethe front.
front.
2010 30 And ase,
these, neset
based on on oursue review
terion ofof them,
then appear
sepsen toto contain
cutein
wl11 worse
further notes
notes Seon
from your sien as8 Vice
your time Tie President.
Proven.
1212 PRESTOENT BIDEN:
Okay.
1313 WE. HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. SoSo dodo you
you --=- was
was this,
this, waswas this
this
10)14 soretssien
particular dren
drawer tn your
in yore Wilmington
witstngton library,
Ameen, was vos this
thie
15||
15 someprace
someplace that
that you praced and
you placed and kept
rept these
these notebooks?
notebooks?
1616 PRESTOENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIOEN: I© don't
don't know.
know. II mean,
mean, there's
there's
17||17 probably
probably other
other drawers that
drawers that had
had them
them inin itit too,
too, butbut these
these
18]18 sre
are onall cutnse
things then are
that one mine
mine that
shan I© keep
tern andont I2 just
gee fileste
19]|19 away.
away. And
And I'mI'm == none ofof them
-- none them areare relevant
relevant to,to, II don't
don't
20||
20 think
think anything
anything I1 wes doing, especially
was doing, especially thethe years
years you're
you're
21||21 tatking
talking about.
about. Anyway
Anyway -- --
222 WR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. SoSo were
were you
you ---- was
vas this
this
23||
23 particular
particular drawer
drawer a place where
a place where youyou stored
stored these
these notebooks
notebooks
24||
24 com
from your
your tine
time as as vice prestdenc?
Vice President?

PRESIDENT BIOEN: No.No. These
These areare probably
probably --—-
comeFheaeportingME Teanasription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I
RAR
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000142
I ov .. DRAFT
1m
111
11 [1:22:46.7)
(1:22:46.7]
2
2 SRESTORNT
PRESIDENT SIOEN:
BIDEN: = materials
-- materials that
that ended
ended uptp inin
33 Delaware
Delaware that were
that were in
in my desk and other
desk and places, and
other places, and they'd
they'd
o4| sasner
gather sam
them vp
up amet
and pe
put sian
them in 5 one
oe dana,
drawer.
s
5 We. HUR:
MR. MIR: I'm soriy, sir.
I'm sorry, sir. II just
jest didn't,
dine, ITide
didn't
66 hear you.
hear you.
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II said,
said, II --
-- no.
no. II don't
don't --
== why
why|
8 6| they
they alla11 got
got 1nin one drawer is1s probably
one drawer probaly because
because I1 went
went through
through
9 o| nymy desk
desk oxor things
things onon top
top ofof my
my desk
desk orox inin that
that —- onon that,
that, onon
10]10 hose
those shetves
shelves ant
and shay wae sit
they were all shess notebooks.
these mosabecte. IT putpun them
she
1
11 all together and
all together and put them in
put them in one
one spot.
spot. I'm sure
I'm these are
sure these not
are not
12||
12 211
all the nooks Trve
the books I've done
done an soraten policy
on foreign peltey asas Vice
vies President.
erestdent.
=13 WR. SE SoSo teto thethe extent
MR. HUR: eset thatthats there
thee were
ware other
over
14 notebooks
notebooks containing
containing your
your notes
notes on foreign
on foreign policy
policy during
during
15 your
your time as Vice
time as President,
Vice President, where are
where are those?
those?
116 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT IGEN:
BIDEN: II have
have nono idea.
ides. II wish
wish II could
could
17|
17 say
say 1I vas
was more organized. No,
more organized. No, I'm
I'm not
not being
being facetious.
facetious. I'm I'm
18 being deadly earnest. It's not like I, I had -- Jill used
18||
19 60to on
say tnto we,
me, yougon ugen
ought 50 to be io in
like =m st
-- Sin she
and then ov. stopped
SEDO
20| saying
20 saying — but
but Franklin
Franklin Rosevelt oror Ronald
Roosevelt Reagan. II said,
Ronald Reagan. said,
21|
21 dont
don't make
make meme 1ike Ronald Reagan.
like Ronald meagan. 17d joke. Every
I'd joke. might,
Every night,
22|| mera
22 he'd cone home and
come home and he'd
neta write
write aa diary
diary about
about wnat happened
what happened
23|| that
23 that day,
day, who
who he he spoke
spoke to, classified, unclassified,
to, classified, welsssified, just just
24|
24 everything
everything neta write
he'd write inin se,it, and hehe kept
and kept itit all.a1. Sheshe
25|| shout,
25 thought, because shers
because she's an English
an Engtish professor
professor ofof writing,
writing, —
a FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.
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| o=rET
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11 :24:00.00
[1:24:09.0]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: -- that
that II should
should justjust keep
keep ----
3|3 for
for posterity's
posterity's sake,
sake, II should
should keep
keep aa diary.
diary. EveryEvery day,
day, put
put
4|4 down
down important
important things that
things that happened
happened that that day
day and
and move
move on.on. I I
5||
5 never
never was was that
that organized. And
organized. And soso II -- anyway.
anyway.
66 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay. IfIf you you look
look at,at, ifif you
you look
look atat
7|7 the
the photograph
photograph ending
ending in in 156,
156, several
several ofof these
these notebooks
notebooks
! 8||
8 have
have documents
documents tucked
tucked into them
into them ----
99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yep. Yep.
1010 MR.
MR. HOUR:
HUR: -- -- like
like inin the
the top
top row,
row, thethe third
third from
from
1111 the
the left
left --
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah.Yeah.
1313 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- has has some
some documents
documents sticking
sticking out out ofof
14|
14 it.
it. Same
Same with
with the
the oneone allall the
the way
way toto the
the right.
right. SoSo were were
15||
15 these,
these, were
were these
these documents
documents tucked into
tucked into these
these notebooks
notebooks whenwhen
16||
16 they
they werewere placed
placed into this drawer?
into this drawer?
FY]17 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: No. No. My My guess
guess isis ---= II don't
don't
18||
18 know.
know. Highly
Highly unlikely.
unlikely. My guess
My guess is,is, like,
like, when
when II finish
finish aa
19
19[[ --
-- II was
was just
just doing
doing aa brief_,
brief El and
and II had
had aa notebook,
notebook,
20||
20 and
and II got
got finished,
finished, and
and II took
took the
the PB PB (phonetic)
(phonetic) notes
notes and
and I I
21||
21 stuck
stuck them
them in in that
that -- -- inin aa folder
folder likelike this this one
one sitting
sitting onon
22||
22 my
my desk
desk upstairs.
upstairs. And, and
And, and my
my guess
guess isis II end end upup putting
putting
23||
23 them
them away
away and
and II forget
forget that that
that that ---- whatever
whatever II slipped
slipped inin
2424 there
there is is in
in there,
there, but II don't
but don't know.
know.
25
25 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: All ALL right.
right. Anything
Anything else else onon those
those ---—-
FREEReporting
STATE REPORTING,
INC.
Court
court Reporting Transeription
Transcription
D.C. Area
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1902
I DOLHICHUR0000144
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000144
I • DRAFT
0 113
113
1]1 (1:25:50.51
(1:25:50.5]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- -- drawers
drawers in the
in the library,
library, guys?
guys?
33 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: If If II understood
understood your your last
last answer,
answer,
4||
4 mr.
Mr. President,
President, part
part of of whatwhat you're
you're saying
saying is, is, forfor example,
example,
55| if
if there
there were were marked classified documents
marked classified documents stuffed
stuffed inin those
those
6||
6 notepooks,
notebooks, you were
you were not not aware
aware of of it?
it? .
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Correct.Correct.
88 MR. KRICKBAUM: Did
MR. KRICKBAUM: Did I,I, did
did II understand
understand that?that?
99 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And byby the
the way,way, ifif they're
they're --—- II
10||
10 don't
don't --
-- ifif they're
they're marked classified, one
marked classified, one ofof those
those things
things
11|[
11 with
with circles
circles around
around it it andand clearly
clearly it's it's aa classified
classified
12||
12 document,
document, not
not something
something that's eyes
that's eyes onlyonly oror Secret
Secret oror
13||
13 selective
selective or
or whatever
whatever the hell
the hell itit is,is, other
other than
than saying
saying Top Top
14||
14 secret,
Secret, it
it would
would not not be be in here. II ---- every
in here. every time
time II saw
saw
15||
15 anything
anything like
like that,
that, II gave
gave itit toto staff
staff toto saysay return
return this
this
16||
16 wherever
wherever it
it was.
was.
1717 Now,
Now, the the -- anyway.
anyway. So So ---- but but II could
could easily
easily see see
18||
18 --
-- like,
like, for
for example,
example, the, the
the, the -- what what do do you
you have
have right
right
19
19 there
there in
in front
front of
of you?
you? That.
That.
20
20 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: This? This?
21
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yeah. Yeah.
22
22 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: Notes. Notes.
23
23 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Indiscernible
MALE SPEAKER: (Indiscernible
24
24 1:26:56.9).
1:26:56.8).
25
25 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Okay. Okay. ItIt says says attorney
attorney work work ----
FREE STATE REPORTING, IC.
INC.
Court Reporting
Transcription
D.C. Area
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1502
I
DOLHICHUR000014
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000145
I DRAFT
onc 114
114
11]| (2:02.11
[1:27:02.1]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- product.
product.
33 UNIDENTIFIED MALE
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Don't
MALE SPEAKER: Don't read
read itit out.
out.
44 (Laughter,
(Laughter, overlapping voices
overlapping voices 1:27:03.1.)
1:27:03.1.)
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No, No, no,
no, no,
no, no,
no, no,no, no,
no, no.
no. But But
6|
6 here's
here's my
my point,
point, what
what II would
would do do ifif II was
was given
given this
this toto
7]7 read,
read, and
and II finished
finished the
the -- -- you
you know,
know, I'dI'd stick
stick itit inin aa
8||
8 notebook,
notebook, pick
pick up up and
and I'dI'd walk out, I'd
walk out, I'd forget
forget II hadhad itit inin
9||
9 the
the notebook.
notebook. That's
That's what I'm
what I'm trying
trying toto stay.
stay. ButBut II didn't
didn't
10||
10 store
store things
things in notebooks
in notebooks to keep
to keep them.
them. That's
That's not
not ---- ifif II
11|[
11 were
were goinggoing to to —-
12
12 And
And if if they're
they're classified, II would
classified, would take
take them
them --—-
13||
13 I'd
I'd call
call -- -- II think
think I've
I've done
done thatthat here.
here. I'm I'm not
mot sure.
sure. II
14|[
14 probably
probably said
said to to staff,
staff, hey, II found
hey, found this,
this, return
return it.it. AndAnd
15|[
15 so it's
so it's -- anyway.
-- anyway.
16
16 What's
What's this this one here
one here on on 061?
061? ForFor POTUS
POTUS 28/09/09.
28/03/09.
1717 MR.
MR. HUR: You're looking
HUR: You're looking at the
at the last
last photo
photo inin ---—-
18
18 PRESIDENT
13
19 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: -- -- tabtab 4.4. So So ifif wewe can
can look
look atat this
this inin
20||
20 conjunction
conjunction with
with thethe one before it.it.
one before
21
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Sure. Sure.
22
22 MR.
MR. HUR: HUR: The,The, thethe photo
photo —-
23
23 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: In In conjunction
conjunction with with which
which one,
one, sir?
sir?
2
24 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: I'm I'm sorry.
sorry. The photo
The photo before
before itit ends
ends inin
25
25 158
158 — --
Court D.C.
Reporting. Feansézipeion
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DOLHICHUR000014
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) LBDRAFT 15
115
11 [1:28:04.9])
[1:28:04.9)
22 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Yes.Yes.
33 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- ~-- and
and that
that hashas the
the notebook
notebook with
with Af/Pak
Af/Pak
44 11 with
with aa binder-clipped
binder-clipped document stuck
document stuck into
into it.it.
55 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Gotcha.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Gotcha.
66 MR. HOR: And
MR. HUR: And then
then if,if, ifif you
you ----
77 MR. BAUER:
MR. BRAUER: Can --
Can -- could
could II just
just say
say one
one thing,
thing,
88 Rob?
Rob? This
This is
is -- that's
that's absolutely fine.
absolutely fine. II don't
don't mean
mean toto
s||
9 interrupt.
interrupt. I1 do want toto mention
do want mention one
one thing.
thing. We're
We're ---- inin the
the
10||
10 next
next fewfew minutes,
minutes, we're going toto bebe atat about
we're going about two-and-a-half
two-and-a-half
11||
11 hours
hours — --
1212 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Yes,Yes, sir.
sir.
13
13 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- and and II do
do know
know that
that the
the President
President
14||
14 has
has aa 33 o'clock
o'clock or thereabouts barbecue
or thereabouts barbecue --
15
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Staff.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Staff.
. 16
16 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- -- that
that hehe has
has toto host
host onon behalf
behalf ofof
| 17||
17 congressional
congressional or
or somebody.
somebody. But by
But by all
all ----
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It's all the people that work in
15||
19 here.
here.
20
20 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: ButBut ---- yeah,
yeah, by by people
people working
working here,
here,
21||
21 exactay.
exactly.
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: All
PRESIDENT BIDEN: All right.
right. It'sIt's mymy fault.
fault.
23||
23 We're
We're going through ---- but
going through but gogo quicker
quicker with
with your
your questions.
questions.
2
24 MR.
MR. BAUER: Yeah. IfIf you
BAUER: Yeah. you want
want toto start
start itit the
the
25
25 next
next time
time or if you
or if you want
want to
to do
do itit now,
now, that's
that's entirely
entirely up
up --
BT —
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11 :28:38.5
[1:28:38.5]
22 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: ---- toto you.
you.
33 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Let's
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Let's dodo itit now.
now.
44 MR.
MR. BAUER: Okay. That's
BAUER: Okay. That's absolutely
absolutely up up toto you.
you.
55 PRESIDENT BIDEN: So
PRESIDENT EIDEN: So you
you started
started toto say say gogo back
back toto
6|6 158,
158, which
which II did, and itit says
did, and says --
77 MR. HUR: Yes,
MR. HUR: Yes, yes.
yes.
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ~-- has
PRESIDENT BIDEN: has the
the number
number 10. 10.
99 MR. HOR: Yeah.
MR. HUR: Yeah.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And itit has
has Af/Pak
Af/Pak 1.1.
un
11 MR..HUR:
MR.. HUR: II think
think itit might
might make
make sense
sense maybe,
maybe,
12||
12 because
because this
this sort of enters
sort of enters aa newnew topic,
topic, maybe
maybe toto address
address
13||
13 these
these tomorrow.
tomorrow.
114 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: HisHis concern
concern isis that
that it's
it's goinggoing toto take
take
15|f
15 too
too long,
long, that it's not
that it's not going
going toto bebe aa short
short -- and and you
you said
said
16||
16 let's
let's move
move quickly,
quickly, and II think
and think the
the ---- that
that the
the —-
1717 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Let's
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Let's see
see if,if, ifif --—-
1818 MR.
MR. BAUER: Much rather
BAUER: Much rather getget through
through this this isis --
19
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: If, if<«[I
If, - (phonetic)
(phonetic)
20||
20 outside
outside --
-- do you mind?
do you mind?
21
21 MS. COTTON: Sure.
MS. COTTON: Sure. Do Do you
you wantwant him
him toto come
come in?
in?
22
23
23 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: Okay. Okay.
2
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'll
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'll have
have him him call
call upup and
and see
see ifif
25||
25 they're
they're getting
getting started.
started. If not,
If not, I'dI'd justjust like
like toto get
get --—-
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC
INC.
Courto.c.Reporting
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D.C. Area
Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1502
I
DOLHICHUR0000148
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000148
I DRAFT
oc 17
117
11 [1:29:19.8)
[1:29:19.8)
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: --—- itit done.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: done.
33 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: (Indiscernible 1:29:20.0).
a4 VR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: And And ifif we
we can
can find
find that
that time,
time, then
then wewe
55 just,
just, you
you know
know -- —- .
56 MR. HOR: Sure.
MR. HUR: Sure.
77 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- have less
-- have less toto dodo tomorrow.
tomorrow.
88 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Sure. Sure. Does itit make
Does make sense
sense toto take
take aa
9||
9 break
break right
right now?
now?
1010 MR. BAUER: IIT think

MR. BAUER: think what
what wewe --—
111 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'm I'm not,
not, I'm
I'm notnot --—-
1212 MR. BAUER: (Indiscernible
MR. BAUER: (Indiscernible 1:29:32.3).
1:29:32.3).
1313 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: -- -- doing
doing any
any breaks.
breaks.
114 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Okay. Okay. You You ready
ready toto just
just gogo —-
1515 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'd I'd rather
rather justjust keep
keep going.
going.
16]16 1°11
I'll go
go all
all night
night if we
if get this
we get this done.
done.
717 ALL
All right.
right. Have they
Have they started
started the the barbecue
barbecue yet?yet?
1818 EEE Not ot yet,
vet. sir.
sin
1919 UNIDENTIFIED
SPEAKER: Okay.
Okay.
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Okay.
Okay. When
When they
they start,
start, tell
tell
21||
21 3111
Jill I'm
I'm here,
here, I'm
I'm ready
ready to to stop
stop whenever
whenever theythey start.
start.
2222 a
I
DOJ Yes, sir.
2323 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Okay?
Okay?
2424 i
Yes, sir.
25
25 MR.
MR. sass:
BAUER: ind Ba oy
And., roughly what time
what time ----
CourtD.C.Reporting Transcription
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o.c. Area 301-261-1902
|
oosuCHUR ID
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oor
I DRAFT 118
118
11 :20:49.8)
[1:29:49.8]
22 MR.
MR. BAUER: -- would
BAUER: -- would that
that be?
be?
33 IE
oru Probably
Probably in the
in the next
next
I
al4 indiscernibl
(indiscernible e 1:29:53.2)
1:29:53.2) hour.
hour.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: The next
next hour?
hour?
66 |> H Yes, sir
Yes, sir.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay. IfIf it's
it's sooner,
sooner, call,
call,
88 okay?
okay?
99 |> H Yes, sir.

Yes, sir.
right.
111 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: AllAll right.
right. So So I'd
I'd like
like toto move
move onon maybe
maybe
12||
12 to
to the
the photos
photos that are inin tab
that are tab 5,5, because
because II think
think that
that way
way wewe
13||
13 can
can ----
1214 PRESIDENT BIDEN: What

PRESIDENT BIDEN: What ~sis this,
this, for
for POTUS?
POTUS?
1515 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So that,
that, that
that isis aa document
document that
that isis ==
16||
16 that
that waswas discovered
discovered in the
in the notebook
notebook labeled
labeled Af/Pak
Af/Pak 11 inin the
the
17|[
17 photograph
photograph ending
ending 158.
158.
1818 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Gotcha. And
BIDEN: Gotcha. And there's
there's something
something
19||
19 behind
behind that?
that?
2020 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: There,
There, there are
there are aa number
number ofof pages
pages
21||
21 behind
behind that,
that, that document,
that document, but I'd
but I'd like
like toto take
take that
that upup --
22
right.
23
23 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- after this
-- after this next
next -—-
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay, good.
good.
25
25 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- -- set
set ofof questions.
questions.
CourtReporting Teanséripeion
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1 [1:30:40.7]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Want to play pool? My next
3 photograph.
4 MR. HUR: Okay. All right. So now we're going to
5 be talking about the photographs behind tab, tab 5, and so
6 these are Bates labeled 20230120_JLH_62, then 74, then 66,
7]7 then
then 76, then DSC_004,
76, then DSC_005.
DSC_004, DSC_005.
8 So back to the first photo in this tab section, is
9 this the, is this the room you were talking about --
11 MR. HUR: -- earlier with the --
13
13 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -I usss
14
14 |B
15 PRESIDENT EIDEN: The screen that comes down that
16 covers the whole fireplace. That's (indiscernible
17||
17 1:31:31.1)
1:31:31.1) -- that's
that's why
why it's
wes a=[Iusss
18 MR. HUR: Okay. And is this the room that you
19 I believe you mentioned you were, you were running a lot of
20 campaign operations out
21 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yes.
22 MR. HUR: -- of this particular -- okay.
23 PRESIDENT EIDEN: And outside, as you remember,
24 usss , and we had big,
25 thick clear plastic that would come down so that rain --
CourtReporting Transéription
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1f1| @:31:ss.0
[1:31:55.0]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ~-- couldn't

PRESIDENT BIDEN: couldn't come
come through
through andand you
you
3||
3 could
could pull
pull up for the
up for the sun, and there's
sun, and there's places
places wewe ---- and
and soso
|
44 tnere
there vere,
were, there
there were television
were television cameras,
cameras, there
there were
vere
] 5||
5 podiums,
podiums, there
there were
were lighting
lighting systems, etet cetera.
systems, cetera. IfIf I I were
were
6||
6 going
going to to dodo something,
something, any ---- then
any then that's
that's where
where II would
would dodo
7|7 speeches
speeches from.
from. That's
That's where I'd
where I'd dodo interviews
interviews with, with, you
you
8||
8 xnow,
know, meet
Meet the Press from,
the Press from, because
because itit was was during
during the the
||
9 pandemic.
pandemic.
1010 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Understood.
Understood. Okay. So
Okay. So ifif we we look
look atat thethe
11||
11 1ast
last two
two photos
photos in this section,
in this section, ending
ending DSCDSC_0004
0004 and and 0005,
0005,
12||
12 one
one ofof the
the pieces
pieces of furniture
of furniture we we seesee inin aa little
little nooknook --==
1313 PRESIDENT
1414 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- -- II guess
guess next
next toto the
the couch,
couch, isis aa
15||
15 two-drawer
two-drawer cabinet.
cabinet.
1616 PRESIDENT
717 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So isis this
this thethe same
same cabinet
cabinet you you were
were ----
1818 RESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: My My guess
guess isis it's
it's the the same
same one.
one.
19||
19 It
It could
could -- -- there's
there's another
another one exactly
one exactly like
like itit --—-
2020 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.Okay.
21
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: ~-- inin the
the other
other corner
corner over
over here
here
22||22 if
if you
you look
look atat 004,
004, go go toto the
the corner,
corner, you you see
see aa golf
golf club?
club?
2323 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes. Yes.
224 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Well,Well, there's
there's aa nooknook back
back inin
25||
25 there
there —- --
Cobet
Court Reporting Feanscription
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OLHICHURC0012
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over 121
121
11 [1:32:55.5)
[1:32:55.5]
22 WR.
MR. non:
HUR: ves.
Yes.
53 CRESTOENT BIDEN: --~~ and

PRESIDENT BIDEN: and there's
there's another
another oneone ofof
o|4 those,
these, those
these filing
filing cabinets
cabinets there asas well.
there well.
55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
6
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Identical
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Identical filing
filing cabinet.
cabinet.
77 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Looks identical, I mean.
5
9 WR.
MR. HOR: Gotcha.
HUR: Gotcha.
| 10
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Okay.
u11 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So ifiF --—= soso let's
let's focus
focus onon thethe filefile
12||
12 cabinet
cabinet ehatre
that's tnin the
the --
i"13 enestoene pron: 05?
PRESIDENT BIDEN: 052
W14 MR.
MR. WOR:
HUR: If If we're
weze looking
Looking atat --—= yes,
yes, 05.05.
| 1515 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep.
! 16
16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Perfect.
Perfect. Let's focus
Let's focus on
on that
that one.
one. So
So
17||
17 that
that one
one may
may be the same
be the same file
file cabinet
cabinet that
that came
cane from
fron Chain
Chain
18 Bridge -- that was previously in Chain Bridge Road; is that
1919 eigen
right?
220 PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's

PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's mymy guess.
guess.
221 [P—
MR. HUR: Okay.
222 SRESIOBNT BIDEN: Either

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Bither that
that one
one orof thethe oneone
23 that's in the other corner.
224 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. So ifLf thethe one
So one that
that we're
we're looking
looking
25||
25 atat inin 0005
0005 1s
is not the ane
not the that was
one that was inin Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road
Road --—
CourtReporting Teanséription
o.c. Area 301-261-1902
— SN
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000153
EE on
DRAF'l' 122
122
11 (1:33:35.2)
[1:33:35.2]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- then where
-- then where was
was itit before?
before?
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: ItIt was
was probably
probably ---- IT don't
don't know
know
al4 where
where it it was.
was. waybe
Maybe 1t-was
it-was on the
on the first
first floor.
floor. II don't
don't
5||
5 know. 1tIt could've
·know. could've been somewhere else
been somewhere else inin Chain
chain Bridge
Bridge Road.
Road.
66 1I don't
don't Know.
know.
77 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay.
HUR: Okay. It sounds
It sounds like ---- well,
like well, itit sounds
sounds
68 Like
like the
the two
two cabinets
cabinets that, that
that, that look
look alike
alike ---
59 PRESTOENT
BIDEN: Yeah.
1010 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: = -- were they both
were they both atat Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road?
Road?
1
11 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: II don't
don't remember.
remember. II ---- my
my guess
guess
12]|12 isis they
they probably
probably were,
were, but but II don't
don't know
know that.
that.
1313 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Were Were they
they bought
bought together
together asas aa matching
matching
10]14 seer
set?
1s15 PRESIDENT
don't know.
know. I1 don't
don't know.
know.
1616 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay, okay. Let's
Okay, okay. let's see.
see. All
All right.
right. SoSo
17)17 then
then back
back toto the
the cabinet
cabinet in 5,5, 005.
in 005.
118 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yep.Yep.
119 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So what -- when
So what when this
this was
was moved
moved in,in, who,
who,
2020 | who
who picked
picked that
that spot
spot forfor itit inin this
this room?
room?
221 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II probably
probably did.
did. II probably
probably told
told
22||
22 then
them where
where == -- I didn't
didn't ~= not
-- not with
with itit being
being moved,
moved, butbut II --—-
2323 [| you
you know,
know, I'm
I'm kind
kind of fastidious about
of fastidious about where
where things
things go,go, soso II
24||
24 probably
probably said
said put put that
that -- -- those
those file
file cabinets
cabinets inin these
these two
two
25||
25 places.
places.
Court Reporting. Transripeion
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
| Cosmas
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000154
I DRAFT
cnc 123
123
11 11:34:00.9
[1:34:40.9]
22 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. And once
And once itit was was placed
placed there
there inin
3||
3 this
this roomroom in in thethe lake house, whose
lake house, whose files
files were,were, were
were inin this
this
44 cabinet?
cabinet?
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Mine.Mine.
66 MR.
MR. HOR: Okay. Exclusively
HUR: Okay. Exclusively yours? yours?
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yeah.Yeah.
88 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. And what
And what kindskinds ofof files
files were
were kept
kept
99 there
there when when -- --
10
10 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II don'tdon't recall.
recall. ItIt couldcould bebe
11||
11 everything
everything from
from family
family photographs toto ---- II don't
photographs don't know.
know. II
12||
12 mean,
mean, it it could
could be be anything.
anything.
13
13 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay. Were
HUR: Okay. Were youyou inin and and out
out ofof this
this
14||
14 cabinet?
cabinet?
15
15 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Not Not very
very often,
often, no.no.
16
16 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. Was anyone
Was anyone else else inin and
and out
out ofof the
the
17
17 cabinet?
cabinet?
18
18 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Not Not that
that I'm I'm aware
aware of.
of.
19
19 MR.
MR. HOR: Okay. So
HUR: Okay. So ifif wewe gogo toto tabtab 6,6, there's
there's
20||
20 some
some photographs
photographs of
of the materials inside
the materials inside this this cabinet.
cabinet. And And
21
21 so
so the
the first
first photo,
photo, 20230120_FBI_0039,
20230120_FBI_0039, this shows
this shows thethe
22||
22 interior
interior of
of the the top drawer.
top drawer.
23
23 PRESIDENT
2
24 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: And it's --—-
And it's
25
25 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: ItIt makesmakes sense.sense. You You see
see ---—-
FREE STATE
FREE REPORTING,
INC.
Court Reporting
Transcription
0.C. Area
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
301-261-150
L
OLHICHUR000155
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000155
oe
DRAFT 124
124
11 [1:35:50.2]
[1:35:50.2]
22 PRESIOENT BIDEN: --= those

PRESIDENT BIDEN: those empty
wnpty files?
Siies?
:3 wr
MR. on: ves.
HUR: Yes.
‘4 SRSSIUENT TIER: It76 very

PRESIDENT BIDEN: very well
eid maymy bebe thatthen I © putput
55 those
those files
files in
in there
there with the
with the papers
papers cleaning
cleaning off
off the
the pool
pool
6)6 cable
table chat
that peopte
people drop stat onon oror thethe conference
drop stuff conterence table. tabie. Soso
7|7 1I coutd
could havehave put those inta there.
put those there.
.8 WE.
MR. TOR:
HUR: Okay.inp. And fw if57 you
yon take
Sane aa look
dosh atob thewhe --==
95| ©I know
know evsit's aa 1ate1e
little bit hard
bit nara toto see,
see, butbut ifif youyou cancan make
make
1010 outout tne
the £i1e
file orders,
folders, the titles
the tities written
written onon anyany ofof those,
those, dodo
11||
11 any
any ofof those
those Look familtar to,to, toto you?
look familiar your
212 sRESIOENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: No. No. I'mI'm -- cancan youyou --—- I© can't,
cant,
13 I can't read them.
14 wr
MR. on vesn. ITo--
HUR: Yeah.
=15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Can

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Can anybody
suybody else
slse read
send what
what they
they
16
16 are?
are?
17
17 MR.
MR. HOR: Okay.
HUR: Okay. Well, maybe
Well, maybe tomorrow
tomorrow we
we can
can pull
pull
18
18 them up
them up on
on aa laptop
laptop and
and zoom
zoom in.
in. But
But for
for now,
now, that's
that's fine.
fine.
1019 and
And then £2 wewo gogo toto thethe next
then if next photos
photos inin thisthis
20|20 eo
tab --
n21 sxgszomye roe: Yep.

2222 WR HOR: = ending
MR. HUR: ending inin 40,40, that's
that's aa photograph
photogzaph ofof
23
23 the interior
the interior of the
of the --
224 ensszome azo: Yep.

2525 MR.
MR. HOR: -- bottom
HUR: -- bottom cabinet.
cabinet. And
And dodo you
you seesee ---—-
Icon
bug bs
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I sosworunion DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000156
I ocnrT
DRAFT 125
125
11 (1:36:43.9]
[1:36:43.9]
22 MR. HOR:
MR. HUR: -- the
-- the binder
binder on
on the
the right
right side,
side, 2017
2017 --—-
33 PRESIDENT
BIDEN: Yep.
14 VR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -- invitations?
-- invitations?
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Invitations,
BIDEN: Invitations, yeah.
yeah.
66 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Okay.
Okay. So if
So if we
we go
go further
further on
on in
in the
the
7||
7 photographs
photographs in
in this
this section, there's
section, there's aa couple
couple photographs,
photographs,
8||
8 psc_oor
DSC 001 --

10
10 MR.
MR. HOR: -- and
HUR: -- and there's
there's aa finger
finger pointing
pointing atat the
the
1
11 right
right side of the
side of the bottom
bottom drawer
drawer there.
there.
12
13
13 MR. HUR: And
MR. HUR: And then
then DSC_002,
DSC_002, you'll
you'll see
see aa spiral-
spiral-
14
14 bound
bound black-covered
black-covered notebook there
notebook there with
with the
the label
label 1/6/12
1/6/12
15
15 || Number
Number 22 Foreign
Foreign Policy.
Policy.
16
16 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Yep.
1717 MR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. And
And then
then underneath
underneath that
that isis
16||
18 another
another one
one that's
that's shown in FBI_0106,
shown in FBI_O106, and
and that's
that's labeled
labeled
19
19 daily
daily 12/15/15,
12/15/15, 2016, 2017,
2016, 2017, 2018.
2018.
20
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yep. Yep. See See it.it.
2
21 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay. So
HUR: Okay. So these
these notebooks,
notsbooks, did did you
you place
place
22
22 || these
these notebooks
notebooks here
here in this particular
in this particular drawer drawer ofof this
this
23
23 cabinet?
cabinet?
2
PRESIDENT BIDEN: don't recall.
recall. II could've,
could've, butbut
25||
25 II don't
don't recall
recall whether
whether II placed
placed themthem when when the
the cabinet
cabinet was was --—-
FREE STATE REPORTING, INC,
INC.
CourtD.C.Reporting
Transcription
D.C. Area
Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1902
I
OLHICHUR000157
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000157
I DRAFT
oc 126
126
11 r:38:08.5)
(1:38:08.5]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: -- -- there
there oror they they came
came that
that way.
way.
33 1I conte
don't recarr.
recall.
a4 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.Okay. So one
So thing that
one thing that we
ue see
see inin these
these
5||
5 photographs
photographs of
of thethe bottom
bottom drawer drawer --—-
66 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Which photograph are
Which photograph are you
you on,
on, Rob?
Rob?
77 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Let's Let's look
look at at ending
ending inin 0040,
0040, so so that's
that's
8||
8 aa few
few back
back fromfrom wherewhere we we were.
were.
s9 MR. SISKEL:
MR. SISKEL: Wait aa minute.
Wait minute. What, What, what
what was
was
10||
10 that
that (indiscernible
(indiscernible 1:38:31.7).
1:38:31.7).
111 MR. BAUER:

MR. BAUER: Oh, Oh, yeah.
yeah. Got it.it. Thank
Got Thank you.
you.
1212 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So -- --
1313 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Do Do you have itit too?
you have too?
114 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: No, wait
No, wait aa minute.
minute.
1515 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: No. No. Let's Let's givegive usus one one second.
second. We're
We're
16||
16 just
just —- --
1717 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Sure, Sure, take take youryour time.
time.
1818 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- moving toto the
-- moving the right
right location.
location.
1919 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: This one.
This one.
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Okay. Okay.
221 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay. Okay. So one
So one thing
thing that that hits
hits the
the eye
eye isis
22||
22 on
on the
the left
left side,
side, it's
it's aa bunch
bunch ofof hanging
hanging file file folders.
folders.
2323 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yep. Yep.
224 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: And And on on the
the right
right side,side, it's
it's materials
materials
25||
25 that
that areare stacked;
stacked; they're not
they're not inin hanging
hanging file file folders.
folders.
eres state
FREE nepoRTING,
STATE REPORTING, THC.
INC.
Court Reporting
Transcription
D.C.
D.C. Area
Area 301-261-1508
301-261-1902
|
OLHICHUR000158
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000158
I or . DRAFT 127
127
! 11 [1:38:59.5]
(1:38:59.5]
22 WR.
MR. 40s 05 you
HUR: Do yo recall
sesall why
vi that
dent was
vis thetae case?
Seon?
s
3 WR.
MR. UE Tw sorry.
BAUER: I'm mung. Your
Tok question,
gression, Rob?SR I2
! 4||
4 apologize.
apologize.
s
5 WR.
MR. HOR: ves.
HUR: Yes.
.6 We. SAUER: II couldn't

MR. BAUER: couldn't hear
hess itit clearly.
clessly.
77 MR.
MR. HUR: Do you
HUR: Do you recall
recall why
why that
that was
was the
the case
case that
that
8) the
8 the stuee
stuff onon the right side
the right side waswas --—
5
9 CRESIOENT BIDEN: There
PRESIDENT BIDEN: There was
was nono hanging
hanging folders.
folders.
1010 MR.
MR. MUR:
HUR: --—- stacked
stocked --—- I'mI'm sorry.
sorry. II didn't
didn't hear
hess
1||
11 you
you, siz.
sir.
212 PRESICENT BIDEN: Because

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Because there
there waswas nono hanging
hanging
! 13||
13 folders,
folders, II guess.
guess.
14 wo.
MR. HUR: olay,
Okay.
1s
15 SADIOINT SIDE II mewn,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: mean, I,Tn IT --= I3 don't
dons have
have anyany
| 16||
16 idea.
idea.
”17 WR.
MR. HR:
HUR: Were there ever
Were there ever any
any --— were
vere there
there ever
ever
18
18 hanging file
hanging file folders
folders on
on the
the right
right side
side of
of that
that drawer?
drawer?
19
don't have
have the
the slightest
slightest idea
idea
20
20 in
in the
the world.
world.
=21 wn.
MR. HUR: og. Okay.
22
22 STRAIT
PRESIDENT SEO BIDEN: II wouldn't
von beoe surprised
sumpriew ifif there
here
23||
23 meres
were; 1I wouldnt
wouldn't bebe surprised
surprised ifie there
there weren't.
weren't.
»24 MR. — HUR: Okay.
25
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I,I, I,I, II don't
don't know.
know. II don't
don't ----
Court Reporting.Transéription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
— Ss
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000159
LEDRAFT 128
128
1]1 (33s
[1:39:33.1]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: --~-- think think --== II don't
don't know.
know.
33 MR.
MR. HOR: HUR: So So -- --
44 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: My My guess
guess isis ifif you
you seesee those
those
5|5 folders,
folders, they're
they're not even all
not even all hanging.
hanging. Did Did you
you see
see the
the rodrod
6||
6 that
that they're
they're supposed
supposed to hang
to hang on? on? It's
It's notnot inin place
place onon thethe
7|7 right.
right. They're
They're only hanging on
only hanging on the
the left.
left. They're
They're not not ----
8||
8 they
they can't
can't be
be moved
moved up up andand down
down ifif youyou take
take aa look
look atat it.it.
99 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.Okay.
10
10 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: So So thethe idea
idea that
that there
there waswas —-
11||
11 all
all thatthat sayssays to to meme isis this thing was
this thing was --—- like,
like, when
when itit waswas
1212|| moved,
moved, it it was,
was, it it was
was moved.
moved. II mean,
mean, youyou know,
know, the the —- you you
13||
13 put
put these
these skinny
skinny steel steel pieces down
pieces down toto hook
hook the
the file
file on.
on. You You
14||
14 see
see thethe skinny
skinny steel steel pieces aren't
pieces aren't all all inin place.
place. ItIt goes goes
15||
15 from
from where
where it's it's supposed
supposed to be
to be allall the
the wayway toto the
the right,
right,
16||
16 because
because there's
there's various
various forms ofof files.
forms files. You You can,
can, you
you can
can
1717|| have
have long long files
files and
and short
short files.
files.
1818 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Yes Yes.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: So, So, anyway,
anyway, II don't
don't knowknow what
what
20||
20 that
that has has to to do do with that.
with that.
2121 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Yeah.Yeah. We see
We see aa little
little bit
bit ofof aa better
better
22||
22 shot
shot of of itit in in -- -- aa couple
couple pagespages later,
later, DSC_2
DSC_2 and
and FBI
FBI 106.
106. II
23||
23 see
see -- -- are
are those
those the the steel
steel rails that
rails that you're
you're talking
talking about?
about?
224 PRESIDENT
25
25 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Yeah.Yeah.
CourtD.C.
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DOLHICHUR000010
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or
DRAFT 129
129
1|1 suena
[1:40:41.2]
:2 SR ——
33 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. So in
So in this
this same
same photo
photo ending
ending in
in
of]
4 omen.
0002, surere
there's wens
that soumign policy
foreign porisy notebook
seseset
s
5 JEPRESIDENT — BIDEN: Yep.
s
6 We.
MR. HOR:
HUR: AndAnd then
then another
another one underneath
one underneath it.it.
;
7 [E——
PRESIDENT BIDEN; Yep.
.
8 We.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So these
these notebooks
notebooks areare inin aa different
different
5|
9 piace
place thanthan thethe notenooks
notebooks tat were
that were insn your
your formal
formar library
1sbrary
10]10 wpstais.
upstairs.
un11 SOGSIIUT
PRESIDENT BIDANS
BIDEN: This HGS says
SSS tovm JAAN getting
me just UIST
22]12 them out
chem out of tne vay.
of the way.
=13 WR.
MR. HR
HUR: I'm Dm sorry,
seruy, sir.six. Say
Say that
thet again.
again.
“14 STESIIET REIGN I3 mean,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: swan there's
Where's none rhyme
The or02
15
15 reason
reason to
to it.
it. It's
It's just
just getting them
getting them out
out of
of the
the way.
way. You
You
16])16 rmow,
know, they
they vere
were string
sitting onon thethe table,
table, soso IT --= somebody
somebody oro I1
1717 | oxor somebody
somebody took then and
took them dzopped them
and dropped them inin there.
thee.
18 MR. HUR: I see.
119 SAGRIIENR
PRESIDENT BEANE
BIDEN: I© mean,
weave it's$675 notsot like
440 --= IT mean,
mea,
20||
20 chores
there's no conn
no conn —-
-- anyway.
anyway. he answer isis I1 don't
The answer done know.
Know.
=21 I
MR. HUR: Okay.
222 seavroon wa
PRESIDENT oy.
BIDEN: Okay.
2
23 We.
MR. HR:
HUR: Gh.
Oh. Okay.
Okay. If wewe gogo another
If anether couple
couple
24]24 shots
photos formar,
forward, ending inin 6767 and
ending ending inin 68.65.
and ending
cE oe ne;
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21| geass
[1:41:53.9]
22 MR. HOR:
MR. Do you
HUR: Do ses certain
you see certain file
file folders
folders here
here
3||
3 with
with your,
your, with
with your handwriting on
your handwriting on them?
them? Did,
Did, did
did you
you
of] write
4 write any
any of
of these
these tities onon these
titles these filefile folders?
sotders?
s
5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Some
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Some ofof itit looks
looks like
Like —
6‘ WB. SAUER: Can
MR. BAUER: Gam you
you make
wake them
then outout clearly,
clesxly, sir?six?
;
.
8 MR.
MR. BAUER: Would itit bebe helpful
BAUER: Would helpful ifif theythey were
were
o9| megnsesear
magnified?
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: JRB Facebook. That doesn't look
1111 [| 1ixe
like mymy writing.
writing.
1212 wr
MR. mr net,
HUR: Um-hum.
»13 FROSTING
PRESIDENT EIDEN:SIO For Tor VPVE Review,
Reviews that
When doesn't
dossne lookbos
14||
14 1ixe
like mymy writing.
writing. wert, rook, UD
Well, look, uD policy
policy documents,
documents, Obama
Obama —-
15||
15 what
what does
does that
that sayz Iraq
say? Iraq and
and Syria.
Syria. ThatThat could
could bebe mymy
16||
16 wetting.
writing. I1 don't
don't think
think so.
so.
17 We. UR: Okay.

MR. HUR: Okay. SoSo there
there were
were aa number
mumber ofof --—- and
and
18
18 just
just -- there
there are further
are further closer-in
closer-in shots
shots later
later on
on in
in the
the
1519 [| wa
tab, 069, 70,
70, 771.
220 PRESTOBNT BIDEN: (Indiscernible

PRESIDENT BIDEN: (Tndiscernible 1:43:21.9)
1:43:21.9)
221 UNIDENTIPIED MALE SPEAKER:
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPERRER: Was Was that
that me?
me?
222 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Gmail
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Grail back
back upup codes.
codes. II don't
don't
PY23 [— remember that. Anyway.
224 Uh
MR. 00 diag, There
HUR: Okay. This arei --== weYe can
oon gogo back
Bah to0
25||
25 ending
ending in
in 0068.
0068. There are
There are aa number
number of
of folders
folders that
that you
you ----
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 [1:43:41.6)
[1:43:41.6]
22 MR. HUR: --
MR. HUR: can ---- some
-- can some you
you can
can see;
see; some
some you
you can't
can't
33 see.
see. But
But there
there are
are aa number
number of
of empty
empty folders
folders in
in here.
here.

35 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: For example,
For example, JRB
JRB Grnail
Gmail backup
backup codes
codes isis
66| empty,
empty, and there are
and there are aa number
number ofof other
other folders
folders that
that areare just
just
77| emoty.
empty. Do you recall
Do you recall --== you
you know,
know, were
were there
there some
some folders
folders
8||
8 in
in here
here thatthat thethe contents
contents were removed
were removed andand placed
placed somewhere
somewhere
9|
9 ersez
else? wnat,
What, whatwhat dodo you
you know
know about
about that?
that?
10
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II have
PRESIDENT BIDEN: have nono idea.
idea.
1
11 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.Okay. AllAll right.
right. BackBack toto —-
12
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And then
then II see
see M&T
M&T Banking.
Banking.
13||
13 That
That looks
looks like like itit could
could bebe me.
me. UD,
UD, Bauer,
Bauer, Iraq,
Iraq, political,
political,
14|
14 empty
empty files.
files. This looks like
This looks like ---- this
this JRB
JRB Facebook
Facebook --—- well,
well,
15|
15 I,I, TI don't
don't think II did
think that one,
did that one, because
because II can't
can't imagine
imagine II
16||
16 look
look at at Facebook.
Facebook.
1
17 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So So putting
putting thethe handwriting
handwriting ----
18
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm not
not being
being aa smart
smart guy.
guy. II --—-
19
19 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So So putting
putting the
the handwriting
handwriting toto one one side,
side,
20||
20 when
when you you taketake aa look
look at at the
the labels
labels ofof these
these file
file folders,
folders,
21
21 (| what's
what's in this file
in this file cabinet?
cabinet?
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Everything
Everything that
that was
was left
left onon aa
23||
23 table
table somewhere.
somewhere. II mean,
mean, II ---- there's
there's no no rhyme
rhyme oror reason
reason toto
24
24 || what's
what's in this file
in this file cabinet.
cabinet. University
University ofof Delaware,
Delaware,
25
25 Facebook,
Facebook, code, Syria.
code, Syria. mean, it's
I mean, it's just
just anything
anything that
that —-
By
Court ——
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11 [1:45:18.1]
[1:45:18.1)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- was (indiscernible 1:45:18.2)
3 University of Delaware, (indiscernible 1:45:21.1), Mark Z,
4 Mark zwonitzer, I assume that is. Biden Cancer. There
55 the
the Biden
Biden -- the BRF
-- the Biden Foundation.
BRF Biden Foundation. (Indiscernible
(Indiscernible
6||
6 1:45:45.8)
1:45:45.8) M&T Bank.
M&T Bank. What's this
What's this one
one say?
say? Can you
Can you see?
see?
7|7 Anyway,
Anyway, II don't
don't think there's
think there's any
any rhyme
rhyme oror reason.
reason. They're
They're
8 clearly not based on subject-matter. I mean, they're all
ol9 over
over the
the board.
board. So my
So my guess
guess isis these
these are
are just
just things
things that
that II
10
10 decided
decided not
not to
to throw away or
throw away or -- as
as II said,
said, they
they were
were just
just
11 miscellaneous stuff that was lying around and got put in a
12 drawer.
13 MR. HUR: Well --
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I see domestic policy.
15 MR. HUR: If we can flip to one particular photo
16 in here. It's towards the beginning.
17 MR. BAUER: I'm sorry. What number are -- pardon
18 me. What number is that?
19 MR. HUR: It is the fourth one in, it ends in
20 0002. It's of the black spiral-bound notebook on the right
21 side.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, okay.
23 MR. BAUER: Got it.
24 MR. HUR: DSC 0002. So if you can see towards the
25
25 right
right side of
side of that
that notebook
notebook there
there that's
that's labeled
labeled 1/6/12
1/6/12 ----
ooFREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

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11 [1:47:07.6)
[1:47:07.6]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- Number
-- Number 22 Foreign
Foreign Policy.
Policy. There's aa
There's
3 document sort of sticking out to the right side.
5 MR. HUR: So there's a document that's tucked into
6 that particular notebook. So what do you recall about --
77 and
and II will,
will, I will --
will --

don't recall
recall aa single
single thing
thing --
--
9 MR. HUR: -- represent to you --
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- except that I can imagine --
11 there's times where I'd be in a meeting, whatever this was
12 about, foreign policy, and I'd have something -- I'd have
13 okay, the meeting's over, I stick it in the book. Staff
14 doesn't know I put anything in the book when coming in. But
1s
15 if
if they
they did
did anything
anything at the
at the time,
time, they
they took
took that
that whole
whole book,
book,
16||
16 put
put it
it in
in aa drawer in my
drawer in my desk
desk toto get
get itit out
out of
of the
the way,
way, and
and
17 never went in the book to see what was in there. I mean,
18 what, what the edge was here. The only thing I can think
19 of.
20 MR. HUR: Okay. And I will represent to you that
21 that document that we can see the right edge of it sticking
22 out from the notebook, that that is a marked classified
23 document.
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Marked classified?
catingnen, pie,
Court Reporting
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Transcription
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000165
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134
11 [1:48:09.4)
[1:48:09.4]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Little tiny
Little tiny print.
print.
.
4 SIERO BIER Yeah,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeak okay.
clay.
s
5 Arr
MR. HUR: Well, IRE don't
ri rr tiny
know how little Ren print
pais
66 it
it is.
is.
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Well, no,
Well, no, no.
no, no. -- because
ItIt -- because
of]
8 stit mateers.
matters. ttIt matters
matsers inin terms
terms ofof how
how important
snportant they
they think
think
ofl
9 stit 1a.
is. 16If yourve
you've gor classified
got crassiried written
written inin that
that really
ssatsy ----
10|10 vou
you probably
probably can see
can see --~ anyway
smpuay
n11 Wh.
MR. BAER:
BAUER: CanGan II just
just askask aa clarification.
clerificesion. Are Ase
12]|12 you
you zepresenting
representing that allail ofof thethe documents
that documenta inin thetne
13
13 notebook
notebook --
214 we oR: I'm

MR. HUR: Tm sorry.
sory.
:15 WR.
MR. BUTE:
BAUER: = are
20 classified?
GlessiEbe
16
16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: The, the
The, the documents
documents include
include --
17 Wi.
MR. BAER: Include classified
BAUER: Include classified documents.
documents.
18 MR. HUR: -- marked classified documents.
0
19 MR. BAUER: They're not all a documents.
—
classified
20 MR. HUR: Yes.
21 MR. BAUER: Correct, thank you.
2222 FRRSEONE BIDEN:

PRESIDENT SEOEN: SoGo if32 it45 gotgun putgn indn with
with other
esier
2||
23 stose,
stuff, 1I could,
costes 1I could
conte see
sve that
thas them,
them, meaning
mesning thetne staff,
stare,
24||
24 not.
not going
going through
through and putting
and putting away
auay myny book,
book, wherever
wherever itit was
ues
25
25 at the
at the time,
time, open it
open it up
up and
and looking
looking through
through and
and pulling
pulling --
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11 [1:48:50.1)
(1:48:50.1]
22 BRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: -- out,
-- out, you
you know,
know, whatever's
whatever's inin
33 cnere.
there.
‘4 wR.
MR. HOR: Okay.
HUR: Okay.
55 VR. KRICKBAUM: Mr.

MR. KRICKBAUM: Mr. President,
President, diddid your
your staff
staff gogo
66 through
through your notesoos, the
your notebooks, the ones
ones that
that youyou were
were taking
taxing
7(|
7 nandwrsceen
handwritten notes
notes 1m?
in?
o8 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: II don't
don't think
think so.so.
59 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay.Okay. Okay.
Okay.
1010 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: And following upup onon that,
And following that, would
would your
your
1|
11 state
staff —--
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: YouYou ought
ought toto check
check them.
them. II mean
mean
13]13 =-- butbut 1I done
don't ever recall
ever recats —-
114 MR. KRICKEAON: Right,
MR. KRICKBAUM: Right, okay.
okay.
1s15 MR. HOR: And
MR. HUR: would your
And would your staff
staff bebe scooping
scooping upup
16
16 things
things from
from the table and
the table and placing
placing them
them in
in drawers,
drawers, or
or was
was
17]17 that
that something
something that you, that
that you, that you
you did?
dia?
118 PRESIOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: II --—- ifif II hadn't
hadn't already
already done
done
19]|19 it,
it, they'd
they'd do
do itit at the end
at the end ofof the
the day.
day. ComeCome inin and
and clear
clear
20||
20 the
the desk,
desk, put put them
them in in drawers.
drawers. II mean,
mean, forfor example,
example, II have
have
21||
21 aa briefcase,
briefcase, TI know
know it's
it's here, but
here, but II have
have books
books inin itit that
that
22||
22 have
have matertar
material that I've
that 1've written,
written, and and not
not classified
classified thatthat I'mI'm
23||
23 aware
aware of, of, but even if
but even if it it were,
were, it'sit's mine
mine --=~ you
you know,
know, mymy
20||
24 private
private notes,
notes, and they'11 take
and they'll take itit out
out ifif I'm
I'm --= they're
they're
25||
25 emptying
emptying the
the bag
bag forfor me.me. AndAnd ifif II empty
empty thethe bag
bag and
and I'mI'm --
Cours
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000167
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11| 1:50:03.4)
[1:50:03.4]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- doing
doing itit onon aa desk,
desk, I'm
I'm
3||
3 100king
looking at
at it it and
and II movemove toto something
something else,else, they'll
they'll taketake
44| that
that and and they'll
they'll put itit inin one
put one ofof the
the drawers.
drawers. InIn my my
5||
5 office,
office, II have drawers, and
have drawers, and you
you open
open those
those little
little doors
doors inin
66| that
that old old Resolute
Resolute Desk, and
Desk, and II have
have climate,
climate, foreign
foreign policy,
policy,
77| domestic
domestic policy,
policy, II don't
don't know, Israel
know, Israel now now or,
or, you
you know
know --
8||
8 and
and they'd
they'd open
open it it up up andand flip
flip itit inin that
that drawer.
drawer. And And IT
o9fl haa
had —-
1010 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: We're We're speaking
speaking herehere during
during thethe period
period
11||
11 of
of the
the Presidency.
Presidency. II just
just want
want itit clear
clear onon the
the record.
record.
1212 MR. HOR: Yeah.
MR. HUR: Yeah.
) 1313 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yeah,Yeah, yeah.
yeah.
] 114 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: This This isis during
during the the period
period ofof
' 15||
15 presidency.
presidency. ves.
Yes.
1616 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No, No, no,
no, II agree,
agree, butbut itit would
would bebe
17|
17 aa not
not dissimilar
dissimilar thing when
thing when II wasn't,
wasn't, when when II ---- wherever
wherever II
1618 || had
had putput stuff
stuff that,
that, you know, II was
you know, was --—- we're
we're working
working on.on.
1919 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: When you
When you were
were Vice
Vice President.
President.
20
20 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: But But even
even when
when II was
was ---- ifif II had
had
21{|
21 ==
-- I,I, I, I, II kept
kept speeches
speeches and notebooks
and notebooks when when II was
was running
running
22|
22 for
for president,
President, and
and theythey ---- youyou know,
know, my my ---- the
the same
same ----
23||
23 virtually,
virtually, the same people
the same people who who were
were inin my my Senate
Senate office,
office, my my
24||
24 vice
Vice President's
President's office,
office, and my
and my office
office when
when II was
was when
when II was
was
25||
25 in
in the
the OvalOval Office,
Office, and my ---- when
and my when II waswas running,
running, and and asas --
CourtReporting.Teancéripion
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11 [1:51:20.8)
[1:51:20.8)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- President, there's a
33 continuum
continuum of
of aa lot of these
lot of these people.
people.
4 MR. HUR: Okay. So I think we're done with those
55 particular
particular photos.
photos.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Okay.
77 MR. HUR: And

MR. HUR: And my
my plan
plan would
would be
be to
to go
go onto
onto another
another
8 location within the lake house, the garage, and --
9 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Okay.
10 MR. HUR: -- those photos are in the next tab.
11 PRESIDENT EIDEN: That's the one I'm interested
12 in.
13 MR. HUR: Okay. So we'll keep going until you,
14 you tell us --
15 MR. BAUER: You're good with continuing, sir?
16 MR. HUR: -- you need to break for this barbecue.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, I'm good with continuing.
18 MR. BAUER: Okay.
19 MR. HUR: Okay.
20 MR. BAUER: We'll continue.
21 MR. HUR: All right. So if we look at the ph~tos
22
22 behind
behind tab 7,
tab 7, there's just
there's just a couple
couple of
of them:
them:
23 20221221 ERT 005 and 009. So these photographs were taken
24 in, as the Bates number indicates, in December of 2022. So
25 do you recognize this garage?

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1 [1:52:19.9)
: foe#7 TomtomSe te
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, I do.
. SHORT wis,TH Yo 8 1 on
3 MR. HUR: From the lake house. Okay.
2}soossermon evssaecomsoso secs

4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And by the way, this is the
2) osssr usmsevan+ wnstm 0ein 8 rs

5 second tranche of stuff that came to the -- this garage,
6 because there was stuff when I when they emptied the Penn
7 || office and they emptied the -- what else, Chain Bridge Road.
2}socomom6 m0mss sa mrs srsor
7 office and they emptied the -- what else, Chain Bridge Road.
2 ooncpsesrgensn apsein eesie sos

8 There were -- a lot of stuff they gathered up and they just
S41) oes sn aan inte so spe sei681

9 took up and dropped in my driveway like this. And some of
oh rtm % wa Ar1
10 them little skinny boxes, some open boxes, some but just
12] teasevatsvn28Arte en eto dr vin 2

11 piled everything up. I remember walking in one day. The
iol) reetomstm mea SetA 1.

12 garbage is out to the left here. You come out and this door
13 here, there's a door leaning against it. That door is a --
so ee: I
14 goes
~~~ usss , you know, usss
15
"
16 -
15 Ea in
in there.
there.
so2080 00 re ie2
srs eee.smssrgens
MR. HUR:
And for
And for example,
example, these
The ceiling
these fans
fans
fans, sir?
--
: en
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The ceiling fans.
* ransnen pan, wn2m a

18 MR. HUR: Yes.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: They're, they're from the
20
20 | usss
>> 5 And so
And so it's
it's when
when they
they started
started
usss
0,IA rrrMA
21|[
21 to,
to, you
you know,
know, because of
because of the
the ---- you
you know,
know,
12 srt sestectum eet oe. heroSoon nn

22 all the changes they were making. And so they just took it
23 and piled all that stuff there. These, these, these
24|| cushions were

were from
from the furniture that
that was
was on
on
usss
|oc] and
and
II rome
24 cushions the furniture
I
a
ATImEm.,
25 they piled it up there. That, that, that, that podium
Dr
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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139
11 [1:54:01.6) )
[1:54:01.6
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- and you can see this other
33 stuff
stuff is lighting,
is lighting, like you see
like you television, that
on television,
see on stuff
that stuff
4 was from the time that -- when we're doing the campaigns and
5 had been out there for a while. So there's a lot of -- and

(
6 this stuff is -- these -- I mean, for example, there's --
7||
7 when
when they
they took
took down all the
down all the stuff
stuff from
from ---- that
that we
we had
had in
in the
the
8 home and -- Chain Bridge Road -- like, I think one of these
9 is a mirror, a full-length mirror. I'm not sure. It's --
10 you know, it's the one you're looking at here.
l 11
11 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Are you
Are about the
talking about
you talking --
the --
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Box.
13 MR. HUR: -- the box in front of the rocking
14 chair?
16 MR. HUR: Okay.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: This -- I'm looking at 20 --
18 okay, well same thing.
19 MR. HUR: Ending in 9?
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Ending in 9, yeah.
21 MR. HUR: Yeah.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I think that has a mirror in it.
23 I'm not certain of that. These other things are filters for
24 the -- having nothing to do with being brought from
25 anywhere. Filters for the heating system --
SE SE
Ee 1
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1 [1:55:16.1]
2 MR. HUR: Oh, filters. I see.
3 PRESIDENT EIDEN: -- and I -- and, and in those
4 boxes.
5 MR. HUR: And which boxes are those, sir?
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I think if you look over top of
7||7 the
the big
big box,
box, you
you see one, two,
see one, two, three,
three, four,
four, fifi ---- they
they all
all
8 look the same size.
9 MR. HUR: Yep.
10
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II think
think they
they are
are the
the filters
filters for
for
11 the heating system.
12 MR. HUR: And are we looking at the, the photo
13 Bates number ending in 9?
15 MR. HUR: Okay. I'm using the treadmill sort of
16 as an anchor for the eye. Where relative to the treadmill
17 are you looking?
18
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm looking
I'm looking as
as you
you walk
walk in,
in, ■mn
19 usss at the end.
20 MR. HUR: Oh, yes.
21 PRESIDENT BIDEN: See those? I think that's what
22 that stuff is. It could be photographs that were boxed.
23 I'm not sure.
24 MS. COTTON: The white things at the edge behind
25 the rocking chair?

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11 (1:56:05.3]
[1:56:05.3]
3 MR. HUR: Oh, sort of peering through the rungs or
44 the
the spindles
spindles of
of the rocking --
the rocking -- back
back of
of the
the rocking
rocking chair?
chair?
6 MR. HUR: I see. So, so when you --
,
7 sxescom prom: ©
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I --
8 MR. HUR: I guess just looking at those boxes as
9 a, as a lump, as a group, I think you characterized them as
10 that's the second tranche. Is -- where is the -- well,
11 maybe we start, what's in the second tranche? What is
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I have no goddamn idea. I
13 didn't even bother to go through them.
14 MR. HUR: Okay. Do, do you know when this pile of
15 -- this tranche of boxes arrived in the garage roughly?
16 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, because, because I had been
17] out. and now, it could be building material of what they're

17 out. And now, it could be building material of what they're
18 doing now. It this is 20
19 MR. BAUER: 2021 I think.
20 MS. COTTON: 2022.
21 MR. BAUER: 2022.
22 MR. SISKEL: December of '22.
23 MR. HUR: Yeah, this is December of 2022.
24 MR. BAUER: December 2022, so much later. Yeah.
25 MR. HUR: Yeah.
SII
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1|1 @:s7:02.1
[1:57:02.1]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: They

PRESIDENTBIDEN: They ---- when
when did
did they
they -
3 usss ?
a4 MR.
MR. BAUER: About a-·
BAUER: About a El
55 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Oh,
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Oh, yeah.
yeah. Close.
Close. ItIt could
could bebe
6 this is what usss
77 [3
usss You ever
You ever seen
seen aa picture
picture ofof the
the
8||
8 house.
house.
99 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: II don't think I've
don't think I've seen
seen itit usss
1010 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well,
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Well, well,
well, no.
no. II mean,
mean, whether
whether
11||
11 you
you saw
saw it
it or
or not,
not, if you saw
if you sav aa picture
picture ofor |REEN
usss
12 ---
1313 MR. HOR: Yes.

MR. HUR: Yes
114 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- you'd
PRESIDENTBIDEN: you'd understand
understand what
what they
they
15||
15 did.
did. |
They
They vs
usss HB, and
and because
because itit isis on
on
16 the -- it is usss , and usss
I
USSS.NSC
17
0
18 USSS,NSC
gq
19
=|
20
=|
21
22
=|
23
24|| That kind of stuff.

24 That kind of stuff.
2525 And
And then the whole
then the whole back
back ofof the
the house
house was
was stucco.
stucco.
Courto.c.
Reporting Teamsceiption
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00 HICHUR00001T4
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DRAFT 1a
143
i1 [1:58:10.9]
[1:58:10.9]
2 PRESIDENTBIDEN: USSS,NSC
3
|
14 |] And
And they,
they, and
and they
they ---- well,
well,
5||
5 anyway,
| 5s
anyway, usss ,8 and
and inin the
the meantime,
meantime, II had
had
I
6 work done I don't know how long ago now. A couple years
7||7 ago,
ago, II had
had aa SE
usss
' a: I
usss put on.
put on. II
8 had forgotten I had been in the goddamn house since -- how
9 long I'd been in the house.
10 And, anyway, so there's a lot of stuff that was
11||
11 going
going on,
on, and this isis all
and this all what
what II had
had down
down here
here too,
too, golf
golf
12
12 clubs
clubs and
and -- is this
-- now is this 2022
2022 as
as well?
well?
13 MR. HOR: Which photos are you looking at, sir?
14
14 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: December (indiscernible
December (indiscernible 1:58:55.6).
1:58:55.6).
15
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm on
I'm on 0024,
0024, ERT_0024,
ERT_0024, inin the
the —-
16 MR. SISKEL: Same tab 9.
17
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: (Indiscernible 1:59:02.6).
18 MR. HUR: Of tab 9? These are also -- yes, these
19 are also December 2022. So that's great. I was actually
20||
20 going
going to
to go
go to
to tab
tab 99 right
right now.
now. So ifif you
So you look
look atat ending
ending inin
21
21 24, this
24, this is, this
is, this is
is the
the same
same -- the
the photos
photos were
were taken
taken the
the
22||
22 same
same day
day as
as the
the ones
ones where we were
where we were looking
looking atat inin tab
tab 7,7, but
but
23 the photographer has now walked into the garage and rounded
24
24 the corner
the corner behind
behind this
this huge
huge pile
pile of
of boxes
boxes and
and isis taking
taking aa
25 photograph there. And do you see in the center of the --
Court Reporting. Transcriprion

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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1 [1:59:44.0] n
|| riseiaso
22 MA. HOR: ---- shot,
MR. HUR: shot, there's
there's aa little
little hang
hang tagtag that
that
33| says
says 11 onon 12
it?
.4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah.

55 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: And if
And if you
you go
go to
to the
the next
next photo,
photo, which
which
6||
6 is
is ending
ending in
in ERr_0025, there's anan even
ERT_0025, there's even closer
closer shot
shot ofof that
that
7||
7 pox
box --
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Yeah.
s9 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- = it's
it's aa little
little ripped
ripped up.up. It'sIt's got
got
10||
10 that
that hanging
hanging tag
tag 11 on it. SoSo dodo you
on it. you know
know --—- what
what dodo you
you
11||
11 know
know about
about this
this box?box? What's
What's inin it,it, and
and how
how itit got
got there,
there,
1212 | and
and when
when it
it got
got there?
there?
1313 PRESTOENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: II guess
guess itit gotgot --—- II don't
don't know
know
14||
14 when
when the
the hell
hell it got
it here. That
got here. That sayssays Pete
Pete Rouse.
Rouse. Christ,
Christ,
15||
15 that
that goes
goes back
back a a way.
way. same date.
Same date.
16
16 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Are you
Are you heading
heading to
to another
another
17||
17 (indiscerniblenible 2:00:34.8
(indiscer 2:00:34.8) ) —
118 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: I'm I'm just
just going
going ——
119 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: IIT see. see.
2020 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yeah.Yeah. So So you'll
you'll see see more
more photos
photos behind
behind
2121 | that
that one.
one. So
So the
the boxbox inin 2525 and
and 26,26, that's
that's the
the box
box that
that waswas
22||
22 actually
actually seen
seen and found inin December
and found December ofof last last year.
year. SoSo it'sit's
23||
23 protey
pretty beat
beat upup and torn at
and torn the corners.
at the corners. SoSo then then when
when thethe
24||
24 agents
agents recovered
recovered the materials, the
the materials, the box
box waswas --— itit wasn't
wasn't
25||
25 going
going to to hold
hold up,
up, it it wasn't
wasn't structurally sound,
structurally sound, soso they
they --—-
Soraern00 ion
CortReporting.Transcrip
5.0 Area
rea 301-261-1902
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I cos
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000176
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145
11 12:01:03.4)
[2:01:03.4]
2 MR. HUR: -- put the stuff from the beat-up box
33 into
into aa new
new box,
box, and that's what's
and that's what's shown
shown in
in DSC_003.
DSC 003. So it's
So it's
4 the same stuff, just a more structurally sound box.
55 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, okay.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay.
Yeah, okay.
6 MR. HUR: Okay? And so some of them, for example,
7||
7 ending
ending in
in DSC_4,
DSC_4, you
you can
can zoom in and
zoom in and see some of
see some the, the
of the, the
8 labels a little bit more sharply.
9 PRESIDENT EIDEN: (Indiscernible 2:01:40.6)
10 program. Beau Iowa.
11 MR. HUR: Yeah. So there's -- one of the things
12 that you can see is the Beau Iowa binder. The white one
13 next to it says income and expenses I believe.
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. That's the one I'm trying
15 to get squared away.
16 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
17 MR. HUR: And, you know, for example, you can see
18 a manila folder that -- it looks like it says National
19 Constitution Center on it in the middle of the shot.
20 Washington Speakers Bureau a couple in front of it.
22 MR. HUR: Okay. So do you -- for example, do you
23 recognize the Beau Iowa binder, do you recognize the
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. I mean, I've seen it
25 before.
CountReporting.Trsnséription
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000177
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11 [2:02:31.3] )
(2:02:31.3 :
22 E—
MR. HUR: Okay.
3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I think it was a -- why, why --
4 what was it about. Anyway, I can't remember. Okay.
5 MR. HUR: But do you remember how these materials
66| got
got into
into this
this box
box and then how
and then how that
that box
box got
got into
into thethe garage?
garages
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No,
No, II don't
don't remember
remember how
how itit got
got
8 -- I don't remember how a beat-up box got in the garage.
9 MR. HUR: Okay. And do you remember how things
10 like the Beau Iowa binder got into --
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, I
12 MR. HUR: -- this spot?
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Somebody must've, packing this
14 up, just picked up all the stuff and put it in a box,
15 because I didn't.
16 MR. HUR: Okay. Do you have any idea where this
17 material would've been before it got moved into the garage?
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, if it was 2013 -- when did
19 I stop being Vice President?
20 MS. COTTON: 2017.
21 PRESIDENT BIDEN: So I was Vice President. So it
22 must've come from Vice President stuff. That's all I can
23
23 think of.
think of.
24 MR. HUR: So it does have some material in here
25 that relate to your activities post-vice presidency,
cont Ropar. Hiasiciption

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[2:03:45.9]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- like like the Washington Speakers
the Washington Speakers Bureau
Bureau
3||
3 material.
material. And
And there's
there's also material
also matertal inin here
here that
that relates
relates toto
4||
4 the
the book,
book, Promise
Promise Me, Me, Dad,
Dad, with Mark Zwonitzer.
with Mark Zwonitzer. So So there
there isis
5||
5 some
some that that datesdates after
after —-
56 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: See, that's
See, that's what
what makes
makes meme think
think
7||
7 just
just people
people gathered
gathered up whatever
up whatever they they found,
found, and
and whenever
whenever
8||
8 the
the lastlast thing
thing was
was beingbeing moved.
moved. So So the
the stuff
stuff moving
moving outout ofof
9||
9 the
the ViceVice President's
President's residence,
residence, at the end
at the end ofof the
the day,
day,
10||
10 whatever
whatever they
they found,
found, they put
they put ---- they
they didn't
didn't separate
separate itit
11||
11 out,
out, you you know,
know, Speakers
Speakers Bureau and
Bureau and Penn
Penn oror whatever
whatever thethe hell
hell
12||
12 it
it is,is, or or Beau.
Beau. They just
They just put
put itit inin aa single
single box.
box. That's
That's
13||
13 the
the onlyonly thingthing II can think of.
can think of.
14
14 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So, So, so given, given
so given, given the
the subjects
subjects that
that
15||
15 these
these files
files address,
address, would these
would these havehave been
been things
things that
that were
were
16||
16 at
at the
the NavalNaval Observatory,
Observatory, would they
would they have
have been
been atat Chain
Chain
17||
17 Bridge
Bridge Road,
Road, before
before they got
they got here?
here?
18
18 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Well, Well, they
they were
were clearly
clearly
19||
19 somewhere
somewhere before before they got
they got there,
there, soso --—-
20||
20 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
2
21 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes. Yes.
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, I'm
No, I'm not
not being
being aa wise
wise guy.
guy.
23||
23 (Indiscernible
2:04:46.2). But my
But my guess
guess isis that
that they
they ----
24||
24 based
based on on thethe dates,
dates, they were
they were Vice
Vice Presidential
Presidential material
material
25||
25 initially.
initially. They
They got got putput inin aa box
box and
and probably
probably gotgot sent
sent ----
Const
Court Reporting Teanséripion
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11 (2:05:08.5]
[2:05:08.5]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- either to the Penn Center or
3 to Chain Bridge Road or, for some reason, got sent up to
4 Wilmington. But I don't think it'd be -- they didn't get to
5 Wilmington until 2022 or something, right? Or 20-whatever.
6 I don't know.
77 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: But to
But to be
be clear,
clear, your
your question
question is
is
8 whether he knows --
9 MR. HUR: Correct.
10 MR. BAUER: -- has a clear recollection of how
11 they --
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, I have no idea.
13 MR. BAUER: -- got (indiscernible 2:05:37.7).
14 Okay.
15 MR. HUR: Correct.
16 MR. BAUER: I want to make sure it's clear.
17 MR. HUR: But it's also helpful if he has thoughts
18 as to how
19 MR. BAUER: Well, I mean, I'd like to stay with
20 his recollection and not put him in a position where he has
21 to speculate or --
22 MR. HUR: Understood.
23 MR. BAUER: -- create assumptions or try to engage
24 in detective work.
25 MR. HUR: Understood. So looking again
REI
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LdDRAFT 149
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11 12:06:00.3)
[2:06:00.3]
22 MR. EUR: --
MR. HUR: continuing toto look
-- continuing look atat the
the contents
contents ofof
3|3 this
this boxbox inin the
the garage,
garage, and I'm
and I'm looking
looking atat DSC_0004.
DSC_0004.
44 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: II think think he's
he's moved
moved on. on.
55 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Just make
Just make sure
sure we'rewe're looking
looking atat the
the
6|6 same
same ----
77 MR.
MR. HOR:
HOR: Oh, Oh, sure.
sure.
88 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: (Indiscernible
(Indiscernible 2:06:08.0) we're
2:06:08.0) we're notnot inin
99 the
the same
same place
place ac
at the moment.
the moment.
1010 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Oh, Oh, sorry.
sorry.
111 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: No problem.
No problem.
1212 MR.
MR. HOR: Ending inin 4.4.
HUR: Ending
1313 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: We'll,We'll, we'll we'll figure
figure itit out.out.
114 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: (Indiscernible 2:06:12.3)
(Indiscernible 2:06:12.3) —=
1515 MR.
MR. HOR:
HOR: In In tabtab 9.9. Three
Three inin from from the
the back.
back.
, 1616 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: And And what's
what's the the number
number again
again onon the
the
17||
17 enaz
end?
1818 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: DSC_0004.
DSC_0004.
1919 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Got Got it.it.
20
20 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Okay, Okay, yeah.
yeah.
2121 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So this isis the
So this the oneone where
where youyou can
can see
see thethe
22||
22 Beau
Beau Towa
Iowa binder
binder and
and thethe income
income --—-
2323 PRESIDENT
224 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- and and expenses
expenses binder binder and and ---- soso when
when wewe
25||
25 look
look at at the
the stuff
stuff that
that was
was in in this
this particular
particular box box inin the
the ----
comet
Court Reporting.
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Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1502
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DOLHICHUR.ote!
|JE DRAFT 150
150
11 [2:06:37.5]
[2:06:37.5]
2 MR. HUR: garage, and we compare it to the
3 other things that were in the garage on that day, this is
44 the
the only box that
only box that has file folders
has file folders in
in it.
it. So, so
So, so it's
it's aa
55 little
little bit
bit --
-- it's
it's unusual.
unusual. It's different
It's different from
from everything
everything
6 else that was in the garage. And so --
7 PRESIDENTBIDEN: That day.
8 MR. HUR: All on that day, yes, sir. So -- but
9 when we look at it, it does seem to resemble, in appearance,
10 the materials that were in the file cabinet in the den. So
11 looking at tab 6.
12 MR. BAUER: Just going back a little bit to tab 6.
13 So the cabinets behind the pool table as I understand
14 {indiscernible 2:07:27.5).
15 MR. HUR: Behind the pool table -- or next to the
16
16 leather
leather couch
couch in,
in, in
in --
17 MR. BAUER: Next to the leather --
18 MR. HUR: Yes.
19 MR. BAUER: Oh, I see, next to the leather couch,
20 okay.
21 MR. HUR: Yes. So just going back and forth,
22 there's blue hanging file folders, there's some red manila
23
23 folders,
folders, there's yellow
there's yellow manila
manila folder,
folder, both
both in
in the
the garage
garage
24 box and in the lower drawer of the cabinet in the den -- in
25 the pool table room. So it looks to us what happened was --
I FREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

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11 [2:08:00.3]
[2:08:00.3)
22 MR. HUR: ---- the

MR. HUR: the materials
materials that
that were
were inin the
the box
box inin
33 the
the beat-up
beat-up -- the
the materials
materials that
that were
were in
in the
the beat-up
beat-up box
box in
in
44 the
the garage,
garage, at some point,
at some point, were
were inin the
the cabinet
cabinet inin the
the pool
pool
55 table
table room.
room. They got put
They got put in
in aa beat-up
beat-up box
box and
and shoved
shoved out
out inin
66 tne
the garage.
garage.
77 MR.
MR. BAUER: Just for my sake, Rob, how do you == I
BAUER: Just for my sake, Rob, how do you -- I
88 just
just really
really --
-- II honestly
honestly don't
don't quite
quite understand.
understand.
59 MR.
MR. HUR: Yes.
HUR: Yes.
10
10 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: TheseThese are
are file
file folders,
folders, right?
right? TheyThey
11||
11 could
could —- -- people
people buy file
buy file folders, soso —-
folders,
12
12 MR.
MR. HOR: Correct.
HUR: Correct.
13
13 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: --~-- why
why dodo you
you assume
assume that
that that's
that's the
the
14|
14 trajectory
trajectory here?
here? II hope,
hope, II hope
hope —-
15
15 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: IIam -- I'm
am -- I'm not
not assuming.
assuming. I'm I'm saying
saying
16
16 that
that it
it just
just --
--
1717 MR. BAUER: You

MR. BAUER: You said,
said, you
you said
said itit looks
looks toto usus like
like
16|
18 this
this —
--
1919 MR. HUR: --~-- from

MR. HUR: from physical
physical appearance.
appearance. From From
20||
20 physical
physical appearance.
appearance. So ----
So
2
21 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: So maybe
So maybe ifif there's
there's aa question
question about
about
22||
22 se.
it.
2323 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Let

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Let meme ask
ask youyou aa question.
question.
24||
24 You're
You're saying
saying you think
you think that that what
what I'mI'm looking
looking atat inin FBI
FBI_0039
0039
25||
25 was
was picked
picked up, put
up, put inin aa box,
box, andand stuck
stuck out out inin the
the garage?
garage?
Be
FREE STATE ——
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CourtD.C.Reporting
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D.C. Area 301-261-1503
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152
11 r2:08:51.81
[2:08:51.8]
22 MR. HOR: Not

MR. HUR: Not quite.
quite. II guess
guess what
what I'm
I'm asking
asking isis
3||
3 was
was what
what we're
we're looking
looking at inin tab
at tab 99 —-
55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- -- three
three photos
photos inin --
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: 004. 004.
77 MR. HUR: ERT
MR. HUR: ERT_0026.
0026.
88 MR. BAUER: Zero,

MR. BAUER: Zero, zero zero what?
what?
°9 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: 0026.
0026. So the
So the beat-up
beat-up boxbox photo.
photo.
10
10 MR. BAUER: Okay,
MR. BAUER: Okay, wait.wait.
111 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: Wait, sorry.
Wait, sorry.
1212 MR. BAUER: We

MR. BAUER: We need
need aa minute
minute here
here ----
1313 MR.
MR. HOUR:
HUR: Sure.
Sure.
14
14 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- -- because
because we'rewe're not
mot inin the
the right
right
15]
15 spot.
spot.
1616 PRESIDENT BIDEN: This

PRESIDENT BIDEN: This isis ---- okay.
okay.
bY17 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: That's
That's 0026. Okay.
0026. Okay.
1818 MR. HUR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes. ERT_0026.
ERT_0026. So So that's
that's thethe stuff
stuff asas
19|
19 it
it was
was found
found in in the
the beat-up
beat-up box inin the
box the garage.
garage.
20
21
21 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay. So
HUR: Okay. So was
was that
that material
material previously
previously
22||
22 in
in the
the file
file cabinet
cabinet that was
that was inin thethe pool
pool table
table room
room and
and that
that
23||
23 is
is shown
shown in in FBI_00402
FBI 0040?
24
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Wouldn't
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Wouldn't itit bebe more
more likely
likely itit
25||
25 was
was onon aa floor
floor in
in the
the garage,
garage, they took
they took itit off
off the
the garage
garage --
Covet
Court Reporting teanscripion
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1|1 c2r0:58.01
[2:09:58.0]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- and
and put
put itit inin the
the file
file
3||
3 cabinet?
cabinet? Why would you
Why would you put
put itit out
out inin thethe -- unless
unless you
you want
want
of4] toto non
throw itit away.
away.
s5 MR. HUR:
MR. HOR: Well,
Well, maybe
maybe IT framed
framed thisthis question
question --—
66| wert,
well, what
what we are trying
we are trying toto dodo is15 trytry toto figure
figure outout where
unere
7||
7 was
was this
this stuff
stuff in the
in garage before
the garage before itit was
was inin the
the garage.
garage.
o
8 MR.
MR. BAUBR:
BAUER: AndAnd mymy understanding,
understanding, justjust toto bebe
sf wrens
9 clear =--
1010 we. HOR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes.
u11 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: —- because
because II really
really don't
don't want
want toto bebe
12||
12 usherptul,
unhelpful, 1I want to bebe --=
want to
13
13 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Yes.
Yes.
114 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: ~~ helpful,helpful, isis II thought,
thought, unless
unless II
15||
15 misunderstood
misunderstood —-
116 wn.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes.Yes.
vw
17 MR. BAGER: = hishis answer
MR. BAUER: answer earlier
earlier waswas hehe doesn't
dosen't
25)18 tne
know ow
how 12 it got stave.
got there.
1s19 MR. HOR: He

MR. HUR: He doesn't
doesn't recall.
recall. And
And mymy follow-up
follow-up —-
2020 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: And And I'mI'm worried
worried that
that he's
he's about
about toto
2121 start
start sort
sort of of anaiysing
analyzing speculative assumptions
speculative assumptions «=
222 wn. HOR: Sure.
MR. HUR: sure.
223 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: -- -- oror speculative
speculative assertions,
assertions, which which II
2424 conte
don't think
think 1sis appropriate.
appropriate.
225 MA.
MR. HOR: Sure. Well,
HUR: Sure. Well, letlet me,
me, letlet meme getget thethe --—-
CoursReporting. Tranesription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000185
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154
11 [2:10:35.1)
[2:10:35.1]
22 MR. HUR: ---- question

MR. HUR: question out,
out, because
because I've
I've sort
sot ofof
33| framed
framed it xind ofof clunkily
it kind clunkily here.
here. So So given
given the
the physical
physical --
44| given
given the the fact
fact that
that thethe materials
materials inin garage
garage box
box 11 areare
5||
5 aifferent
different from
from everything
everything else inin the
else the garage
garage inin that
that they're
they're
66| in
in hanging
hanging file
file folders, and
folders, and given
given their
their physical
physical ---- youyou
77 know,
know, there
there are some similarities
are some similarities between
between their
their appearance
appearance
8||
8 and
and the
the stuff
stuff that's
that's in the
in the file
file cabinet
cabinet inin the,
the, inin the
the pool
pool
9||
9 table
table room,
room, is is itit —- are we
-- are we wrong
wrong toto think
think that
that maybe
maybe thethe
10||
10 stues
stuff in
in the
the garage
garage was formerly
was formerly inin thethe file
file cabinet?
cabinet?
111 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: No, No, nono more
more than
than II think
think you're
you're
12||
12 wrong
wrong Lf if it was the
it was the opposite,
opposite, stuff that
stuff that was
was inin the
the file
file
13||
13 cabinet
cabinet was
was in the garage.
in the garage.
114 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: II see. see.
1s15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: InIn other
PRESIDENT BIDEN: other words,
words, I,I, II don't
don't have
have
16||
16 any
any idea.
idea.
917 MR. BAUER: Yeah.

MR. BAUER: Yeah. II think
think --
119 MR. BAUER: II think
MR. BAUER: think we're
we're kindkind ofof going
going down
down aa
20||
20 trail
trail here
here that
that II find
find confusing.
confusing. Frankly,
Frankly, II just
just --—
2121 MR.
MR. HUR: Yes.
HUR: Yes.
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: They're
PRESIDENT BIDEN: They're obviously
obviously trying
trying toto
23||
23 establish
establish something.
something.
2
24 MR. BAUER: ---- do.
MR. BAUER: do. HisHis recollection
recollection isis hishis
25||
25 recollection
recollection --
--
CourtD.C.
Reporcing
Reporting Teanseripcion
5.0. ares 301-261-1902

301-561-1505
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Area
I DosscHURL
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000186
I: DRAFT 155
155
11 (2:11:30.7]
[2:11:30.7]
2 MR. HUR: Okay.
3 MR. BAUER: -- and he doesn't know how it got
4 there.
5 MR. HUR: Okay, fair enough.
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, but I, I don't have any idea.
77 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Well,
Well, that's, that's
that's, -- then
that's -- then that's
that's
8 the answer then I think.
9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: But I don't know, it just -- I
10 used to teach logic. I don't get even the assertion, but
11 anyway, it doesn't matter.
12 MR. BAUER: Well, it is what it is.
14 MR. HUR: All right.
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: So
16 MR. HUR: Any other questions on the garage before
17 we leave that subject? No?
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. When am I going to get
i 19
19 the
the rest
rest of
of it cleared out.
it cleared out.
20 ongpeens
20 (Laughter)
21 MR. HUR: It's an ongoing project. Okay. Should
22 we take a break?
23
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, let's
No, let's keep
keep going.
going.
24 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. The next subject is
25 probably it'll be 30 to 45 minutes, and we're going to --
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DRAFT 156
11 [2:12:29.2)
[2:12:29.2]
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: need to get some additional
3 binders, so we're going --
sf ence
4 MR. BAUER: I'm sorry, Marc, could you repeat
5 that?
6 MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah. We're going to need to get
7 some additional binders for the next subject, so --

8 MR. BAUER: Are they off-site or on-site?
9 MR. KRICKBAUM: No,.they're in here
10 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Here.
11 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- but it's going to take a couple
12 minutes to --
13 MR. BAUER: Oh, okay.
14 MR. KRICKBAUM: pull them out and assemble them.
15 MR. BAUER: Okay.
16 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: (Indiscernible
17|[
17 2:12:43.5).
2:12:43.5).
18 MR. BAUER: So what, we reconvene in five minutes?
19 MR. HUR: Sure, because I do need to use the
20 restroom.
21 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Yeah. I, I might, I
22 might use the restroom.
23 MR. SAUBER: You, you, you want these binders --
24 MR. KRICKBAUM: We're going to keep those out.
25 MR. SAUBER: Oh, okay.
mmaFREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

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DRAFT 157
1 [2:12:55.2]
2 UNIDENTIFIED MALESPEAKER: You're going to keep
3 those out?
4 MR. HUR: Yeah. We might flip back to, to them.
55 sa
IE
SA The time
The time isis 3:37.
3:37. ·we're
We're going
going on
on
6 break.
77 (End
(End of recording)
of recording)
.
.
8
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9
10
11
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Court
Court Reporting. Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
— DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000189
—-: )
.
158
2 CERTIFICATE
33 +,[GER
I, ev that
that thethe foregoing
certify foregoing pages
pages
4 (1 through 44) are a true and correct transcript, to the
5 best of my ability, of the above pages, of the RECORDED
6 INTERVIEWprovided to me by the Special Counsel's Office.
77 II further
further certify
certify that
that II am
am neither
neither counsel
counsel for,
for,
8 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action
9 in which this recording was taken, and further that I am not
10 financially nor otherwise interested in the outcome of the
11 action.
-
12
13
DOJ
14 October 11, 2023
Date
15 - .-
16
16
o
17
18 Within this transcript of proceedings, some of the

19 names and/ or technical terms are spelled pho_netically,
20 inasmuch as exhibits, files and supporting documentation
were not made available to us for reference.
2
21
22
»
23
ue
24
2s
25
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I DRAFT
ot 159
159
1 C E R T I F I C A T E, C O N T.
22 IEE
I,
I, certify EY that
that the
the foregoing
foregoing pages
pages
3 (45 through 155) are a true and correct transcript, to the
4 best of my ability, of the above pages, of the RECORDED
55 INTERVIEW
INTERVIEW provided
provided to me
to me by
by the
the Special
Special Counsel's
Counsel's Office.
Office.
66 II further
further certify
certify that II am
that am neither
neither counsel
counsel for,
for,
7 related to, nor employed by any of the parties to the action
9 financially nor otherwise interested in the outcome of the
.
10 action.
11
DO.
12
DOJ
13 October 13, 2023
;
Date
14 - .-
,
15
16
17 Within this transcript of proceedings, some of the
18 names and/or technical terms are spelled phonetically,
.
20 were not made available to us for reference.
.
21
;
22
.
23
:
24
25
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
IE or
DRAFT
] 11
22
33
a4
J 55
66 RECORDED INTERVIEW BETWEEN

RECORDEDINTERVIEW BETWEEN
77 SPECIAL
SPECIAL COUNSEL ROBERT HUR
COUNSEL ROBERT HOR (SCO),
(SCO), DEPUTY
DEPUTY SPECIAL
SPECIAL COUNSEL
COUNSEL
| °8 MARC
MARC KRICKBAOM
KRICKBAUM(SCO),
(SCO), ASSISTANT SPECIAL COUNSEL
ASSISTANT SPECIAL COUNSEL -
9||WNGSHMN
9 -(SCO), (Sco), SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT
SUPERVISORY SPECIAL AGENT (BD),
(FBI) I
10||
10 seecranacenr
SPECIAL AGENTEESSSNGSSNSNEEN (FBI), (FET), EDWARD
EDWARD SISKEL
SISKEL (WHC),
(WHC),
1
11 RICHARD SAUBER (WHC),
RICHARD SAUBER RACHEL COTTON
(WHC), RACHEL COTTON (WHC),
(WHC),
12
12 ROBERT BAUER
ROBERT BAUER (PC),
(EC), DAVID
DAVID LAUFMAN
LAUFMAN (PC)
(EC)
13
13 and
and PRESTDENT JOSEPH R.R. BIDEN,
PRESIDENT JOSEPH BIDEN, JR.
JR.
1
14
15
15
16
16
17
17
16||
18 Fides:
Files: 2310091212,
231009_1212, 231009 1229, 2310091245,
231009_1229, 231009_1245, 231009_1409
231009_1409
19
19 Date of Interview:
Date of Interview: October
October 9,9, 2023
2023
20
20
2
21
2
22
2
23
2
24
25
25
RE
D.C. Area 301-261-1505
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2
11 RECORDING
R E C ORD I NG
22 sa
SA MNCS: The
The date
date isis October
October 9,9, 2023.
2023. The
The
3||3 time
time isis approximately
approximately 12:12 p.m.,
12:12 p.m., and
and this
this isis the
the second
second day
day
44| of
of the
the interview
interview with Joseph
with Joseph R.
R. Biden.
Biden.
55 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: GoodGood morning,
morning, Rob,
Rob, and
and Marc,
Marc, and
and
66| company.
company. Yesterday in
Yesterday in the
the course
course ofof an
an exchange
exchange about
about types
types
77| of
of presentations
presentations of documents,
of documents, some,
some, you
you know,
know, cover
cover sheets,
sheets,
8||
8 bold,
bold, bigbig lettering;
lettering; others smaller
others smaller print,
print, there
there was
vas some
some
||9 question
question thatthat thethe President
President would
would like
like toto address
address about
about just
just
10||
10 how
how hehe sees
sees -- -- whether there were
whether there were any
any meaningful
meaningful differences
differences
11||
11 between
between these types of
these types of documents
documents and
and the
the way
way that
that hehe handled
handled
12||
12 them.
them. And
And so so I'm just going
I'm just going to
to let
let the
the President
President speak
speak toto
13 that issue. Or he would like to speak to that issue.
1
14 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: {Laughs)
(Laughs) The The idea
idea ---- II want
want toto
15||
15 make
make clear
clear thatthat II didn't
didn't keepkeep anything
anything thatthat wasn't
wasn't --—- II
16||
16 thought
thought was
was classified.
classified. And so
And so the
the fact
fact that
that II said
said II gave
gave
17||
17 back
back all
all the
the stuff
stuff thatthat had
had borders
borders on on itit and
and the
the rest,
rest, II
18||
18 found
found anything
anything else else thatthat was
was classified,
classified, code code word,
word, youvou
19||
19 know,
know, the
the classification
classification categories, II gave
categories, gave that
that back,
back, too,
too,
20
20 || or
or II didn't
didn't see
see it.it. One of the
One of the two.
two. That's
That's all.
all.
2
21 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: That'sThat's it.it.
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II guessguess —-
23
23 MR.
MR. BAUER: (Indiscernible 0:01:19.6)
BAUER: (Indiscernible 0:01:19.6)
24
24 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Thank Thank you you for
for clarifying
clarifying that.
that. IIT
25||
25 don't
don't have
have any follow-up questions
any follow-up questions on on that
that specific
specific point
point
FREE STATE
REPORTING, INC.
INC.
Court Reporting
Transcription
D.C. Area
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1502
I
OLHICHUR0000193
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000193
—-: 3 ;
| 11 10:01:26.8)
[0:01:26.8)
22 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: -- now.
right now.
-- right
33 HUR: II just
MR. HUR:
MR. had one
just had one follow-up clarifying
follow-up clarifying
4|4 question
question on that
on that clarification
clarification, , Mr. President. And
mr. President. And forfor thethe
s||
5 record,
record, 1I should
should say
say that that was
everyone that
that everyone room
was inin thethe room
6|6 yesterday,
yesterday, is
is in the room
in the room today,
today, II think.
think.
77 So
So when
when you
you say you gave
say you gave everything
everything back back inin thethe
8||
8 clarification
clarification you
you provided
provided aa minute
minute ago,
ago, when
when -- like,like, what
what
9|| tine
time period
period are
are you
you (indiscernibl
(indiscernible e 0:01:48.0)
0:01:48.0) —-
| 0 eT SET Seven sweneyeeta on wich and
9
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Seven twenty-eight on such and
11||
11 = (indiscernibl
(indiscernible e 0:01:48.3).
0:01:48.3).
| 12||
12 (Laughter)
(Laughter}
1313 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Well,Well, sir,sir, I'mI'm asking
asking whether
whether
14||
14 you
you —- --
115 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Whatever
Whatever II ran ran across
across whenwhen II was
was
16||
16 out
out ofof oftice.
office.
1717 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- -- whether
whether that that was was youryour practice
practice when
when
16||
18 vou
you were
were vice
Vice president?
President?
119 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah, when
Yeah, when II was was Vice
Vice President.
President.
2020 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Or Or atat the
the endend ofof your
your Vice
Vice
21|
21 presidency?
Presidency?
222 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: No, No, when
when II was was Vice
Vice President
President II
23||
23 gave
gave back
back everything
everything that II nono longer
that longer had had aa need
need toto look
look at,at,
24||
24 and
and that
that uaswas classified.
classified. (Indiscernible 0:02:08.1)
(Indiscernible 0:02:08.1) Top Top
25||
25 Secret
Secret or
or all
all those classifications. The
those classifications. The question
question II --—-
ERs
CourtD.C.
FREE STATE
Reporting.
STATE RERONTING, TIC.
Transceiption
REPORTING, INC.
5.c Area
Ares 301-261-1902
301-261-1505
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000194
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1]1 ro:02:12.m
[0:02:12.7]
22 PRESIDENT thought you

BIDEN: ---- thought
PRESIDENT BIDEN: you were asking meme
were asking
33| was
was when
when II waswas outout of office, when
of office, when II was
was atat the
the Penn
Penn Biden
Biden
4|4 center
Center teaching,
teaching, before
before elected President,
got elected
II got was
after II was
president, after
5||
5 out
out of
of office,
office, what did II dodo with
what did with any
any document
document that
that IT saw
saw
66| that
that was
was classified,
classified, that met
that met the
the classification
classification Top Top Secret,
Secret,
| 7]7 et
et cetera,
cetera, code word, etet cetera.
code word, cetera. Whenever
Whenever that that occurred
occurred II
88 just
just gave
gave that
that back
back to the staff
to the staff or
or left
left itit on
on aa desk
desk toto be
be
| 99 taken
taken back,
back, but
but II didn't
didn't keep
keep any
any of
of those
those things.
things.
1010 MR. KRICKBAUM:

MR. And you
KRICKBAUM: And you said
said whenever
whenever that
that
11||
11 ocoursed,
occurred, when
when you found classified
you found classified documents
documents —-
12
12 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, jus~
just for
for the
the record,
record, II
13||
13 think
think he
he said
said if
if he
he had found.
had found.
1414 MR.
MR. KRICKEAUM:
KRICKBAUM: IfIf hehe had
had found.
found.
15
15 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: He's not
He's not describing
describing aa regular
regular practice
practice
16
16 of
of returning
returning documents
documents that he
that he found.
found.
117 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Were Were there
there occasions,
occasions, Mr. Mr.
16||
18 President,
President, after
after you were Vice
you were Vice President,
President, when when youvou were
ware
15||
19 teaching
teaching at
at Penn, doing allall the
Penn, doing the different
different thingsthings youyou were
were
20||
20 doing
doing after
after your
your ViceVice Presidency,
Presidency, were were there
there any
any occasions
occasions
2121 {| where
where youyou found documents with
found documents with classification
classification markings?
markings?
2222 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Only Only ones
ones II recall
recall were
were thethe ones
ones
23||
23 that
that hadn't
hadn't been written on.
been written on. You You know,
know, II don't
don't recall
recall
24||
24 having,
having, having,
having, in my
in possession, something
my possession, something thatthat waswas code
code
25||
25 word
word or or highly
highly classified
classified that was
that was inin thethe small
small print
print --—
Court
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- that

PRESIDENT BIDEN: don't
ocours. II don't
that occurs.
33| remember
remember that.that.
.4 MR. KRICKEAUM: So
MR. KRICKBAUM: So itit sounds
sounds like
like --—- II want
want toto
5||
5 make
make sure
sure II understand
understand --—- there
there were
were occasions
occasions where
where you
you
66| found,
found, after
after the Vice ---- after
the Vice after thethe Vice
Vice Presidency,
Presidency,
| 77| documents
documents that that had
had any classification markings
any classification markings atat all.
all.
| 6|
8 That's
That's really
really my question.
my question.
°9 MR. BAUER:
MR. I'm sorry,
BAUER: I'm you repeat
could you
sorry, could the
repeat the
| 10||10 question?
question?
111 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Yes. Yes.
1212 MR.
MR. BAUER: Because II didn't
BAUER: Because didn't understand
understand that.
that.
1313 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Were Were --—- was
was there
there ever
ever aa time,
time,
14||
14 after
after you were Vice
you were President, before
Vice President, before you you were
were elected
elected
15||
15 president,
President, that you
that you found
found documents
documents with with anyany classification
classification
16||
16 markings
markings on on them
them atat all?
all?
117 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II think
PRESIDENT BIDEN: think therethere was
was aa notebook.
notebook. II
18||
18 don't remember
don't remember if if it
it had marked ---- you
had marked you know, marker
that redred marker
know. that
19||
19 on
on tc.
it. was that when
Was that when II was was Vicevice President
President oror not not Vice
vice
20||
20 President,
President, that II returned?
that returned? One ofof my
One my staff
staff guys,
guys, II ---- II
21[21 don't
don't recall
recall ever
ever keeping anything atat allall for
keeping anything for my
my personal
personal
22||
22 use,
use, as as aa professor
professor at Penn, for
at Penn, for any
any reason,
reason, that
that was
was marked
marked
23||
23 =
-- that
that hadhad aa goverpment classification onon it.it.
gover.r,unent classification
-·
224 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: It It sounds
sounds like like there
there may
may have
have been
been
25||
25 atat least
least oneone occasion
occasion wherewhere you you found
found something,
something, II think
think --—-
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22 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: -- you described
-- you maybe aa
described itit asas maybe
3||
3 notebook
notebook —-
' 44 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: YouYou guys
guys described
described toto me
me my
my
5||
5 returning
returning aa notebook
notebook toto one
one of
of my
my staff
staff people
people that
that had
had
6|
6 classification
classification —-
--
77 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: You You mean
mean documents
documents like
like that
that that
that had
had
| 8||
8 been
been inserted
inserted into aa notebook?
into notebook?
99 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No,
PRESIDENTBIDEN: No, no.
no. Didn't
Didn't you
you guys
guys tell
tell me
me
| 10||
10 that there was
that there a, aa series
was a, series of papers stapled
of papers that
together that
stapled together
| 11||
11 had
had red border on
red border on them? And itit said
them? And said Top
Top secret
Secret or
or
12||
12 classified,
Classified, that
that II gave
gave toto JENGSHNEEN oror somebody
somebody toto
13||
13 return.
return.
14
14 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: In In your
your post-Vice
post-Vice Presidential
Presidential period?
period?
15
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
don't remember
remember what
what period
period itit
16||
16 was.
was. Anyway
Anyway -- --
17
17 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay.
Okay.
18
18 PRESIDENT EIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: ButBut the
the point
point isis II never
never kept
kept
19||
19 anything
anything whenwhen II wasn't Vice President
wasn't Vice President oror President
President that,
that, inin
20||
20 fact,
fact, was was classified
classified document toto be
document be used
used by by me
me for
for any
any
21||
21 reason.
reason.
22
22 MR. KRICKBAUM: so
MR. KRICKBAUM: So that's
that's anan important
important point
point andand
23||
23 we
we understand
understand that point that
that point that you
you just
just made.
made. WhatWhat I'm
I'm
24||
24 trying
trying to understand is,
to understand even ifif you
is, even you didn't
didn't keep
keep it,it, did
did you
you
25||
25 ever
ever find it. And
find it. And what
what I'm
I'm asking
asking isis did
did you
you ever
ever find
find ----
Court
Court Reporting
Reporting Teanseripeion
Transcription
D.C. Area 501-261-1902
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
I
. OLHICHUR.0000197
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000197
ocr
I DRAFT 7 7
11 [0:05:45.5].5]
10:08:45
22 MR. KRICKBAU
MR. KRICKBAUM: M: -- anything
anything that that had classified
had classified
3||
3 markings after
markings after you were vice
you were President?
Vice President?
a4 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: II don't don't recall anything
finding anything
recall finding
| 5||
5 after II was
after President t that
vice Presiden
was Vice classified markings
had classified
that had markings on on
6f6 at.
it.

MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. You mentioned aa minute
You mentioned ago,
minute ago,
| 6||
8 there may
there have been
may have been an incident with
an incident with EINE’?
s9 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: Didn't somebody tell
Didn't somebody tell me that
me that
| 10||
10 there was
there notebook that
was aa notebook markings on
had markings
that had had aa
that had
on itit that
11||
11 binder that
binder returned? > Didn't
that II returnoa Didn't say that oror
say that
12||
12 somebody say
somebody that on
say that on my staff?
my staff?
13
13 BAUER: ItIt was,
MR. BAUER:
MR. vas [CSI
vas, itit was-·
1
14 presToEN
PRESIDENT BoE: _,GSU. ENCE.I a
T BIDEN:
15||
15 member. Was
staff member.
staff Was that when II was
that when was Vice President, oror after?
Vice President, after?
16
16 MR. BAUER: After.
MR. BAUER: After.
1717 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T EIDEN:
BIDEN: ItIt was after II was
was after Vice
was Vice
18||
18 President. t. II found
Presiden found aa book found paper
book -- IT found that
had that
that had
paper that
19||
19 red marking on
red marking it. II gave
on it. this kid
gave itit toto this kid who working
was working
who was
20||
20 for me
for named INNCSUNNENN., and
me named That's
return it.it. That's
said return
and II said
21
21 what II vas
what referring to.
was referring to.
22
22 MR. KRICKBAU
MR. KRICKBAUM: M: Do you remember
Do you remember that you're
that oror you're
23||
23 being told
being told -- —-
2
24 PRESIDENT EIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, just remember
No, II just told
being told
remember being
25||
25 that.
that.
Transcriptionrion
Reporting . Transérip
Court Reporting
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11 [0:06:46.0]
[0:06:46.0]

MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. So ifif you
So you don't
don't remember
remember
33 it,
it, II take
take it
it you don’t, you
you don't, you don't
don't remember
remember when
when itit happened
happened
| 4||
4 after
after your vice Presidency,
your Vice Presidency, is that
is that right?
right?
| 55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: No, II guess
BIDEN: No, guess you
you guys
guys interviewed
intervieved
66 this
this kid
kid-· EES. Ask Ask him.
him.
77 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: And do
KRICKBAUM: And do you
you remember
remember ---- II take
take itit
| 8||
8 also
also you
you don't
don't remember anything about
remember anything about what
what was
was inin the
the
9|
9 classified
classified document?
document?
1010 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, IT don't.
BIDEN:. No, don't.
111 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you
KRICKBAUM: Do remember anything
you remember anything about
about
12||
12 where
where youyou were
were —-
--

PRESIDENT No.
BIDEN: No.
14
14 MR. KRICKBAUM: --
MR. KRICKBAUM: -- when
when you
you found
found it?
it? Okay.
Okay. I'm
I'm
15||
15 just
just pausing
pausing to see if
to see if II have
have any
any other
other questions
questions about
about that
that
16||
16 subject.
subject. Were there --
Were there are there
-- are there any
any other
other occasions,
occasions,
17||
17 Mr.
Mr. President,
President, when you
when found classified
you found classified ---- documents
documents with
with
18
18 classification
classification markings after you
markings after you were
were Vice
Vice President?
President? II
19
19 just
just want
want to
to make sure that I'm
sure that I'm covering
covering --
--
20
20 MR.
MR. BAUER: Repeat the
BAUER: Repeat the question,
question, I'm
I'm sorry.
sorry.
2121 MR. KRICKBADM: Yes.

MR. KRICKBAUM: Yes. Were
Were there
there any
any other
other
22||
22 occasions
occasions after
after you were Vice
you were Vice President
President that
that you
you found
found
23||
23 documents
documents with classification markings
with classification markings on
on them?
them?
2
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: When
PRESIDENT BIDEN: When II waswas nono longer
longer Vice
Vice
25||
25 President;
President; before
before II was
was President?
President?
shesRaporting
Court
FREE sTaTe REPORTING,.INC.
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[J DRAFT 5
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3 22 MR.
MR; KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Yes, that's
Yes, that's right.
right.
| s3 enesipm BoE T don't recall any.

PRESipENT BIDEN: I don't recall any.
J 55 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: And just one
And just one follow-up.
follow-up. ItIt seems
seems toto me
me
6 that part of what you were trying to get across in your
| 7||
7 clarification
clarification statement this
statement this morning
morning out
out of
of the
the gate
gate was
was
8 you're trying to draw a distinction between on the one hand
' 99 cover
cover sheets
sheets with big lettering
with big lettering --
--
10
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: (Indiscernible 0:07:58.1)
(Indiscernible 0:07:58.1)
11
11 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -- just
just let
let me finish
finish my question,
question, sir.
sir.
12
12 And red
.And red color
color borders,
borders, things like
things like that,
that, on
on the
the one
one hand.
hand.
13 And on the other hand, smaller letter classification
14||
14 markings
markings on
on documents.
documents. Was that the
Was that the intent
intent you
you were
were trying
trying
15 to draw between those two types of classification markings?
16 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Yeah. Basically, yes.
17
17 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Okay.
Okay. And so
And so now
now that
that II understand
understand that
that
18 clearly, is what you were trying to clarify that you may
19 have seen, after the end of your Vice Presidency, documents
20 with the first kind of classification markings, the big
21 letter ones with the color borders, but, but you don't
22 recall seeing documents with the classification markings of
23 the second kind that were small?
24 MR. BAUER: I'm sorry, I'm confused. I don't
25 think that was his answer.

CourtReporting.
Court Reporting Transeriprion
Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
— — DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000200
I DRAFT 0
10
1 [0:08:50.4]
22 MR.
MR. LAUEMAN: No, that.'
LAUFMAN: No, that'ss not
not it.
it.
3 MR. BAUER: That was not his answer.
4 MR. HUR: Okay. Well, then what is --
5 MR. LAUFMAN: He said he didn't recall seeing
6 them, documents with any classification markings after he
7 left the Vice Presidency.
8 MR. HUR: Except
9 MR. LAUFMAN: Whether they had cover sheets or
10 they were classified documents with smaller headers and
11 footers behind the cover sheet, he has no specific
12 recollection of seeing those documents after he left office.
13 MR. HUR: Okay. And the reason he's --
14 MR. LAUFMAN: Is that correct, Mr. President?
16 MR. HUR: And the reason he's mentioning the part
17 about the binder that he returned is because he was told
18 that, not because he has an independent recollection?
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I know that anything I found
20 that had when it was overwhelmingly clear that it was
21 classified, I returned. If you ask me how many times I did
22 that; I don't know. But I did not keep anything that was
23 marked -- that was clearly marked having been handed to me
24 when I was Vice President. That's the only point I was
25 trying to make.
Count
Court Reporting Franceripeion
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[0:09:48.6)
22 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah, and
KRICKBAUM: Yeah, and II think,
think, Mr.
Mr. President,
President,
33| vou
you axe
are making
making aa aistinction
dist~nction between something
between something thatthat was
was
44 clearly
clearly marked,
marked, that's
that's what you just
what you just said
said --== itit seems
seems asas ifif
| yourse saving 1372 possibte shat there was something peshers
5 you're saying it's possible that there was something perhaps
| 66 that
that was
was unclearly
unclearly marked. And
marked. And II think
think we're
we're just
just trying
trying toto
7||
7 understand
understand that.
that. So
So let me ask
let me ask aa specific
specific question.
question.
88 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Yes.
Yes.
| 59 WR. KRICKEAUM: Were

MR. KRICKBAUM: Were there
there any
any occasions
occasions when
when you
you
10||
10 found
found documents
documents that had
that had classification
classification markings
markings inin small
small
11||
11 print
print aster
after you
you were
were Vicevice President?
President?
212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: No, but ifif II did
No, but did II would
would have
have
13||
13 returned
returned then
them asas well.
well.
114 ME.
MR. KRICKBAOM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay, Okay, that's
that's helpful.
helpful. II just
just --—-
15||
15 wewe wanted
wanted to to make sure we
make sure we weren't
weren't misunderstanding
misunderstanding the the big
big
16||
16 1ecters
letters versus
versus sma1l
small letters.
letters.
717 ERESIOENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: No, no,
No, no, IT—---
118 VR. KRICKEAOM: SoSo thank

MR. KRICKBAUM: thank you.
you. Okay.Okay. Anything
Anything
19||
19 else
else on on that
that?
2020 WR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: No. No.
221 MR.
MR. KRICKEAUM:
KRICKBAUM: ALL right. So,
All right. So, Mr.
Mr. President,
President,
22||
22 when
when we we spoke yesterday, Mr.
spoke yesterday, Nr. Hur
Hur showed
showed you you some
some photographs
photographs
23||23 and
and these
there was one document
was one document in particular
in particulsr that that you
you seemed
seemed
2424 || curious
curious about
about so so II thought
thought we would start
we would start with
with that
that one.
one. SoSo
25||
25 4fif you
you grab
grab binder
binder 2,2, and
and flip
flip toto that
that --—- just
just that
that very
very —
Couet 5.Reporting Feancosipcion
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. .
DRAFT 12
! 22 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: --
-- first
first blue
blue tab.
tab. You see
You see that
that
3||
3 photo of
photo of aa black
black notebook
notebook that
that
a4l says
says --
--
5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yup.
| 66 MR. KRICKBAUM: =- Af/Pak

MR. KRICKBAUM: -- Af/Pak 11 onon it.Lt.
77 PRESIDENT
BIDEN: Yeah.
°8 MR. KRICKEADM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: And And then
then flip
flip ahead
ahead toto the
the next
next
9| 9 page,
page, which
which is is --= itit ends in 0-0-2,
ends in 0-0-2, that
that has
has aa document
document that
that
10||10 we
we looked
looked at at yesterday,
yesterday, which isis binder-clipped
which binder-clipped together
together inin
11||
11 the
the front
front of that notebook.
of that notebook. And And then
then inin the,
the, inin the
the next
next
12||
12 pages
pages you'll
you'll see the document
see the document -- -- it's
it's -- andand actually
actually before
before
13||
13 1I have
have you
you looklook at at the
the document
document itself,
itself, Mr. r. President,
President, isis
14
14 this
this --
-- II think
think Mr. Hur
Mr. covered this,
Hur covered this, but
but just
just to
to be
be clear,
clear,
15||
15 this A€/Pak
this Af/Pak 11 notebook,
notebook, was was this
this aa notebook
notebook that
that you you used
used asas
16||
16 Vice President and
Vice President took notes
and took notes inin asas Vice
Vice President?
President?
IY17 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: -The -The date
date isis 4-20-09.
4-20-09. Was Has II
10||
18 stil)
still vice
Vice President?
President? II was,
was, wasn't
wasn't I?I? Yeah.Yeah.
fr}
19 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: MALE: Yeah.Yeah.
20
20 PRESIDENT
2121 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. And And looking
looking atat this
this
22||
22 document
document that's
that's binder-clipped toto the
binder-clipped the front
front ofof this,
this, ifif you
you
23||
23 Look
look atat the
the fourth
fourth page
page of this tab,
of this tab, itit ends
ends with
with 0-0-4.
0-0-d.
21||
24 Let
Let meme know
know when
when you're
you're on that
on that page.
page.
25
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT 18660042
BIDEN: 1B66004?
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| 22 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Yes, sir.
KRICKBAUM: Yes, sir.
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Mr. President
BIDEN: Mr. President --—- yes,
yes, okay.
okay.
| ‘4 MR.
MR. KRICKBAM: And first
KRICKBAUM: And fixst ofof all,
all, did
did you
you --= have
have
| 5||
5 you
you reviewed
reviewed this document
this before our
document before our interview
interview today
today inin
6||
6 preparation
preparation for
for the
the interview?
interview?
7 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't -- I was told about -- I
6|
8 don't
don't think
think II have.
have.
| 59 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. II don't
don't think
think wewe need
need toto gogo
10||
10 through
through this
thi·s entire
entire docunent.
document.
111 MR. BAUER: Yeah.

MR. BAUER: Yeah. Marc,
Marc, we we will
will --—- we'll
we'll clarify
clarify
12||
12 or
or confirm
confirm that
that because
because it may
it may be,
be, asas hehe sees
sees itit today,
today, hehe
13||
13 doesn't
doesn't recognize
recognize it immediately,
it immediately, but but it's
it's possible
possible thatthat wewe
14||
14 aid
did review
review it it with
with him. him.
15
15 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Wait.Wait. Hang on
Hang on aa second.
second.
1616 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Yeah, take your
Yeah, take your time,
time, sir.
sir.
1717 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: This This waswas the
the letter
letter II wrote
wrote toto
18||
18 the
the resident
President about why
about why II disagreed
disagreed with Holbrooke
with Holbrooke and and
19||
19 company
company about their assessment
about their assessment of the
of the situation
situation inin
20||
20 Afghanistan.
Afghanistan.

22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II do
PRESIDENT BIDEN: do remember
remember ---- II didn't
didn't read
read
23||
23 it
it all,
all, but
but TI do
do remember
remember this being shown
this being shown toto me.
me.
2
24 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: All All right.
right.
25
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And II remember
remember the the letter.
letter.
CovetReporting Francéipcion
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1 [0:13:07.8)
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: And --
33 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Because II stayed

Because stayed up
up Thanksgiving
Thanksgiving
4 writing it. Pardon me?
5 MR. BAUER: I just want to note, this document --
6||
6 you're
you're right,
right, sir.
sir. This document has
This document has lines
lines and
and the
the document
document
7 you sovionss, unin vas the same one, did not have Lines.
7 you reviewed, which was the same one, did not have lines.
8 So that may be the reason why it is not familiar to you.
) 99 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Got it.
Got it.
10 MR. BAUER: Okay, thank you.
11
11 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Mr. President, this
Mr. President, this is
is the
the
12 handwritten memo that you wrote to
14 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- President Obama over
15 Thanksgiving of 2009?
17 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Why did you write this memo
18 to the President?
,_
19
19 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: I mean,
mean, is
is "that
that ~-- Marc,
-- Marc, is
is that
that an
an
20 appropriate question? I mean, I
21 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'll tell you why I wrote it.
22 But it's none of your business why I wrote it.
23 MR. BAUE;R: (Laughs) .
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I wrote it because I was trying
25 to change the President's mind, and I wanted to let him --
oInp
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: -- know
-- know II was
was ready
ready toto speak
speak out
out
3 no matter unless he told me don't say a word, I'm ready to
| 44| speak
speak out,
out, and
and to
to really,
really, quite frankly,
quite frankly, save
save his
his ass
ass on
on what
what
| 5||
5 going on.
was going
was on. And uh, and
And uh, and uh, laid out
uh, II laid what itit was
out what that II
was that
| 6| thoushe
6 thought the
the situation
situation was inin Afghanistan
was afshantstan atat thethe time,
time, where
where
7 he was being misled. Not -- not intentionally, but where the
| 8]| sutgmonts
8 judgments were
were off and why
off and why itit would
would bebe soso much
much problem
probien forfor
99 him.
him. And
And TI spent
spent aa lot lot of time sitting
of time sitting down down --—- II think
think itit was
was
10||
10 Thanksgiving
Thanksgiving Day
Day -- -- it it was
was around
around Thanksgiving
Thanksgiving that that II wrote
wrote|
11|
11 this,
this, up
up inin Nantucket.
Nantucket.
1212 VR. KRICKBAUM: IfIf you

MR. KRICKBAUM: you look
look atat page
page 22,
22, the
the date
date
13
13 is
is --
114 MR. BAUER: II just

MR. BAUER: just want
want toto ---- again,
again, just
just soso inin
15||
15 the
the future
future as
as we move through
we move through this, this, you you know
know that
that we've
we've
16||
16 raised
raised the
the question
question before about
before about unnecessarily
unnecessarily oror withoutwithout
1717 || clear
clear linkage
linkage to the
to question ofof the
the question the location
location ofof classified
classified
18||
18 documents,
documents, probing
probing the President on
the President on highly
hishly confidential
confidential
19||
19 information
information he
he provided
provided to the
to the former
former President
President 44 44 oror toto any
any
20||
20 senior
senior members
members of of the administration. So
the administration. So we
we want
want toto bebe
21||
21 helpful
helpful and
and ifif youyou could
could just just draw
draw that
that connection,
connection, it's it's
22||
22 going
going to to bebe aa lotlot easier
easier for the
for the President
President toto feel feel
23||
23 comfortable
comfortable describing
describing confidential advice
confidential advice that
that hehe provided.
provided.
2
24 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Well, Well, the President seems
the President seems eminently
eminently
25||
25 comfortable
comfortable —-
--
Const
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22 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Yeah, Rob, II understand
Yoah, Rob, that.
understand that.
33 MR.
MR. HUR: want to
we want
HUR: IfIf we about this,
talk about
to talk why
Bob, why
this, Bob,
4||
4 don't
don't we
we go
go offline,
offline, because we
because we have
have very
very limited
limited time.
time.
55 MR.
MR. BAUER: Rob, while
BAUER: Rob, while II understand
understand that
that --
--
66 MR. HUR:
MR. HOR: (Indiscernible 0:15:09.1)
77 MESH.
W•J•W- can we
can ve go
go off
off the
the record?
record?
58 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Page
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Page 22
22 isis typewritten
typewritten —-
| 99 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Okay.
Okay. Rob,
Rob, you
you wanted
wanted toto say
say something'?
something?
| 1010 MR. BUR: Yes. So
MR. HUR: Yes. So we've
we've had
had --—-
1
11 (Track 231009_1212
(Track 231009 ends)
1212 ends)
i 12
12 (Track 231009_1229
(Track 231009 begins)
1229 begins)
1313 sa
SA JEMCSHNEN: We're
ve're back
back on
on the
the record.
record.
in14 MR. HUR: Go
MR. HUR: Go ahead,
ahead, Mr.
Mr. President.
President. Sorry
Sorry about
about
15||
15 that.
that.
16
16 - PRESIDENT BIDEN:
don't recall
recall me
me producing
producing
17
17 anything that was typed
anything that typed or
or in
in typed
typed form,
form, and
and this
this is,
is,
18||
18 Embassy Kabul,
Embassy Kabul, subject
subject Helrnand views U.S.
Helmand views did
Troops --—- IT did
U.S. Troops
19
19 not
not write that document.
write that document. I'm not
So I'm not sure
sure why
why itit was
was part
part of
of
20||
20 aa handuritten
handwritten document
document II wrote
wrote toto the
the President,
President, other
other than
than
21||
21 when
when II got
got toto him,
him, they dug up
they dug up other
other information
information that
that was
was
22||
22 similar
similar to
to that,
that, what II was
what was recommending.
recommending. But II don't
But don't
23||
23 recall
recall the -- II ---- that
the -- that wasn't
wasn't from
from my
my hand.
hand. This
This
24||
24 handwritten
handwritten stuff was from
stuff was from my
my hand,
hand, giving
giving him
him information
information II
25||
25 thought
thought no
no one
one else was giving
else was giving h_im,
him, II thought
thought itit was
was --—-
£rexReporting
Court
FREE stare REPORTING,
STATE
Court Reporting
REPORTING, INC.
Transcription
INC.
D.C. Area
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17
11 10:01:15.9)
[0:01:15.9]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: critical that he get to
| 3||
3 change
change his
his position
position on what
on what he
he was
was likely
likely toto do
do based
based on
on the
the
| a||
4 advice
advice he'd been given
he'd been given thus
thus far.
far.
| s5 MR. KRICKEAUM: Understood.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Understood.
| 66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: So to
So to me
me itit was
was very
very
7 confidential, because I did not want to embarrass the
8 President. I also did not want to get into a -- and --
99 I'll
I'll just
just tell you
tell you one
one thing,
thing, itit has
has nothing
nothing to
to do
do
10 with the investigation, you'll understand why this is
11 sensitive. The President thought that I knew a lot more
12 about Afghanistan than he did and other members of the
13 administration. He knew I had a real difference with the
14 key foreign policy types, particularly -- whether it was
15 Eikenberry or whether it was -- anyway.
16 And he was looking for me to make my case as strong
17 as I could, without him having to ask for it or being
18 associated with it, because his concern in this period was he
19 didn't have overwhelming foreign policy experience, and how
20 could he take on the most premier members of the foreign policy
21
21 establishment
establishment in his
in his administration.
administration. Quite aa few
Quite few that
that said,
said,
22 go, do this. So he was looking for me to make the strongest
23 case I could. So I'd be the guy that'd basically take the
24 heat, whtch I was prepared to do because I knew as much about
25 it as they did. That's the context in which

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11 0:03:24.)
[0:03:14.1]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: --~~ this

PRESIDENT BIDEN: this was
was happening.
happening. It's
It's
33| ike
like if
if you
you had
had aa junior
junior prosecutor
prosecutor that
that didn't
didn't want
want you
you toto I
4||
4 be
be embarrassed,
embarrassed, knew you'd never
knew you'd never handled
handled aa particular
particular
5||
5 circunstance,
circumstance, he
he oror sheshe had done this
had done this extensively.
extensively. You You
6|
6 don't
don't want
want to to take
take on on the
the Attorney
Attorney General
General onon the the issue.
issue.
7||
7 But
But hehe or or she knew aa lot
she knew lot about
about it,it, soso you'd
you'd look
look atat him
him and
and
8||
8 say
say what
what do do youyou got,
got, and and make
make the the strongest
strongest case case possible
possible
5|
9 why
why the
the Attorney
Attorney General
General was wrong,
was wrong, oror your your USUS Attorney,
Attorney,
10||
10 whoever
whoever was was youryour boss.
boss.
111 That
That was was thethe context.
context. And that's
And that's whywhy II did
did not
not --—-
12||
12 ordinarily
ordinarily if
if II did
did aa memomemo thisthis long,
long, itit would
would bebe
13|
13 disseminated,
disseminated, go
go to him, go
to him, go to his staff,
to his staff, gogo toto ---- thisthis went
went
14||
14 straight
straight to
to him;
him; nobody
nobody else.else.
15
15 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Was Was itit common
common for for you
you toto write
write aa
16||
16 20-page
20-page --
1717 PRESIDENT
1818 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: -- memo by
-- memo by hand?
hand?
1519 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: First First timetime ---- first
first and and only
only
20||
20 time
time 1I ever ever aid did ic.
it.

22
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And byby the
the way way ifif II tried
tried toto
23||
23 type
type it, it, it
it would
would taketake fivefive times
times asas long.long.
24||
24 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
25
25 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: II understand.
understand. Given Given thethe --—-
Couet
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2 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- significance that the President
3 attached to your views, and ~he thought that you put into
4 this memo, Mr. President, obviously the decision the
5 President made was a very important one, and I'm just
6 curious whether after the fact you ever went back and
7 revisited this memo to see how your advice held up?
| ’
8 SRESIIRNT BELG No,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Wo, IT knew
ew about
shots thehe advice.
avioe. I1
9 knew the memo. I mean, at the time I probably could have
10 repeated verbatim, in that time period. I knew all the
11 points. One of the things that did come from this was we
12 got a commitment that there would be an absolute time limit
13 set to test the theories of the guys who wanted to go in and
14
14 do
do more
more and
and stay longer.
stay longer. And so
And so it
it wasn't
wasn't just,
just, you
you know,
know,
15 open-ended. We weren!t going to put another 100,000 troops
16 and we weren't going to -- and so there was a timeframe put
17 on it, which was not what I wanted, but it was better than
18 the open-ended, you know, go-get-em guys.
19 MR. KRICKBAUM: Was this memo, Mr. President, was
20 this
this something
something that
that you consciously kept
you consciously kept after
after your
your term
term as
as
21 Vice President? Is this something that you wanted to hold
22 onto?
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't recall whether I -- did
24 I have this? Was this in my possession, this memo?
25 MR. KRICKBAUM: Yes. To give you some context

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2 MR, KRICKBAUM: -- for this, Mr. President, it was
3 found in the front of this notebook that's on the first
4 page, and the notebook was found in the library at the lake
5 house, in one of the drawers in the cabinet.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Okay.
37 MR.
MR. BAUER: But your
BAUER: But your answer
answer isis that
that you
you don't
don't
8 know.
9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't recall how it got back
10 -- I mean, I don't recall how it got back in the book,
11 because I sent it to the President and I gave it to the
12 President. And this looks like the original. I don't think
13 there's maybe there was a copy made, but I don't think
14 so.
15 MR. KRICKBAUM: It was faxed. Just to give you
16 some more context.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Oh, okay, that's why.
18 MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah, yeah.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: All right. Now I got it. I
20 wasn't sure how it got -- how I whether I gave handed
21 it to the President. It was faxed to the President, which I
22 have the copy.
23 MR. KRICKBAUM: Right.
25 MR. KRICKBAUM: You had the original.

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2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, I had the original and I
3 just put it in the book and that was it.
4 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Did were you aware that
5 you had kept it after your term as Vice President? Did you
6 know that you had it?
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I, I,I, I,
I, I, II don't
don't know
know that
that II
8 knew, but it wouldn't have it wasn't something I would
9 have stopped to think about.
10 MR. KRICKBAUM: The reason I ask is it's been
11 written about. Bob Woodward wrote about it in one of his
12 books. Jules Witcover wrote about it in his biography of
13 you. So that's the reason I ask is if it was something that
14 you wanted to hang onto because it was going to be the
15
15 subject
subject of
of reporting
reporting or history.
or history.
16 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't know if it was going to
17||
17 be
be the
the subject
subject of
of reporting,
reporting, but II wanted
but wanted toto hang
hang ---- II guess
guess
18 I wanted to hang onto it just for posterity's sake. I mean,
19 this was my position on Afghanistan. And it later became
20 discussed, unrelated to my discussion. It became discussed
21||
21 inside
inside the
the foreign
foreign policy establishment
policy establishment that
that II was
was ’
22 recommending and -- anyway.
23 MR. KRICKBAUM: I mentioned a couple of books.
24 Yesterday you mentioned that there was a book you were
25 thinking about writing before you decided to run for --
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2 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- president. Did you ever
3 consider writing a book, a memoir or anything else, where
|
a4 you
you discussed
discussed the Afghanistan debate
the Afghanistan debate in
in 2009
2009 and
and your
your
1een
™ ermmmm
5||
5 position
position on
on it?
it? Did you
Did you ever
ever think
think about
about writing
writing about
about
6 that?
ne
7 PRESIDENTBIDEN: No, I give you my word, I never
drm
8 thought about that.
10 MR. BAUER: I'm sorry
mmm eee
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: When I was talking about writing
mm
12
12 the
the book.
book. II --
-- I've
I've been of the
been of the view,
view, from
from aa historical
historical
fn
13 standpoint, that there are certain points in history, world
om ee,
14 history, where fundamental things change, usually
ofme
15 technology. For example, without Gutenberg's printing
|
16 press, Europe would be a very different place. Literally a
orm
17 different place, because the country would not have known
fo mm
18 what was happening in other countries -- other parts of the
fmm
19 country. You know, think about a stupid idea, a notion.
Ee
20 Nixon probably would have been President where he used the
oo nnn oe
21 television (verbatim) where he's sweating -- I mean,
fmm
22 sincerely. He was sweating so profusely in that debate, a
fmm
23 lot of people thought he won the debate, but he lost the
Ln
TET
EE
24 debate because of his demeanor. The -- so there's a lot of
25 things that I think are fundamentally changing how
—
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22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: --~—- international
international societies
societies function.
function.
3||
3 And
And they
they relate
relate aa lot
lot toto technology.
technology. And And one
one ofof the
the things
things
4|4 that
that II was
was of the view,
of the view, that
that aa lot
lot has
has changed
changed inin terms
tems ofof|
5||
5 everything
everything from
from the Internet toto the
the Internet the way
way inin which
which we
we communicate
communicate
6||
6 with
with one one another,
another, to --'that
to -- that has fundamentally
has fundamentally altered
altered the
the
77| ability
ability --
-- I'veI've had this discussion
had this discussion with with thethe press
press --
88 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Mr. Mr. President,
President, I'm I'm sorry
sorry toto
9||
9 interrupt
interrupt you
you ==
10
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, No, I'm sorry. That's
I'm sorry. That's whywhy II
11||
11 wanted
wanted it. it.
12
12 MR. KRICKBAUM: II -- II agree
MR. KRICKBAUM: agree with
with —-
13
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: ItIt had had nothing
nothing toto do do with
with
14
14 Afghanistan.
Afghanistan.
15
15 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. That answered
That answered my my question.
question.
16
16 MR. BAUER: And
MR. BAUER: And Marc,
Marc, just
just really quickly,
really quickly, II
17||
17 promise
promise it'll
it'll be
be brief.
brief. II just
just really
really would
would like
like toto avoid,
avoid,
18||
18 for
for thethe purpose
purpose of aa clean
of clean record,
record, getting
getting intointo speculative
speculative
19||
19 areas.
areas. When the
When the President
President responded
responded and and said
said II don't
don't recall
recall
20||
20 intending
intending to keep
to keep this
this memo, you
memo, then said
you then said well,
well, youyou know,
know,
21||
21 might
might you you havehave thought
thought itit was was important
important to keep·it
to keep: it oror
22||
22 whatever
whatever and
and he he said
said well
well II guess,
guess, II could
could have
have -- hishis
23||
23 recollection
recollection as II understand
as understand it is,
it is, he he does
does not
not recall
recall
24||
24 specifically
specifically intending toto keep
intending keep this
this memo
memo after
after hehe left
left the
the
25||
25 vice
Vice Presidency
Presidency and
and II want
want that
that toto be be ---- II want
want these
these --—-
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MR. BAUER: -- questions
BAUER: -- questions toto be
be asas clearly
clearly answered
answered
33 and
and recorded
recorded on the transcript
on the transcript as
as possible.
possible.
4 MR. KRICKBAUM: I think we should take a break at
‘ tn. same on, one en. come on.

5 this point.
6 MR. LAUFMAN: Oh, come on. Corne on.
77 (Track 231009
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9 MR. KRICKBAUM: We are back on the record.
10 Mr. President, the only other thing I wanted to ask you
y 11||
11 about
about this
this document,
document, is about
is about the
the typewritten
typewritten pages
pages that
that are
are
12 at the back of it. So if you flip to -- on the bottom, the
13 Bates number, it ends in 0-0-2-3.
15 MR. KRICKBAUM: So this is a typewritten document.
16 It's got a confidential -- what appears to be a stamp at the
17 top. And the top of the document indicates it's from the
18 American -- AM Embassy Kabul. It's dated, what appears to
19 me to be, November '09. The only question I have for you
20 about this, Mr. President, is the confidential marking. Do
21 you recognize that to be a classification marking?
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No. I mean, confidential,
23 doesn't want to get around. It's not in a category, I don't
24 think, of code word, Top Secret, that kind of thing. But I
• 25 don't even know where it came from.

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MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Are you familiar
Are you familiar with
with
33 confidential
confidential as
as a level
level of‘classified
of classified information?
information?
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, if I got a document that
55 said
said confidential
confidential it means --
it means -- it
it would
would mean
mean that
that no
no one
one else
else
6 could see it but me and you give it -- or the people working
7 on tse se.
7 on this issue.
8 MR. KRICKBAUM: And are you aware that among
99 certain
certain categories
categories of classified
of classified information
information there
there is
is Top
Top
10 Secret, Secret, and there's also a category of classified
11 information called Confidential. Is that something that you
12 are aware of, or not?
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I -- yes, I was aware of it. I
14 don't ever remember when I got any document that was
15 confidential, that was meant for me to read and/or discuss
16 with the people who sent me the memo. So ...
17 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. We looked at this
18 handwritten memo that you wrote. Were there any other memos
19 or documents about Afghanistan from your time as Vice
20 President that you kept after you were Vice President?
21 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not knowingly. I mean, it
22 wasn't anything I consciously -- there may have been
23 something that was kept in a notebook or something, but not
24 conscious.
25 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. In other words, you're --

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2 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- not aware of this memo being
3 part, at any point of a larger collection of documents that
4 you held onto on purpose --
5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Correct.
6 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- after you were Vice President?
7 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Correct.
8 MR. KRICKBAUM: You're not aware of that? Okay,
9 thank you. So we talked yesterday about the house that you
10 rented on Chain Bridge Road.
12 MR. KRICKBAUM: I wanted to show you at least one
13 more photo from that house. So if you could -- sorry to
14 make you flip, but --
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, that's all right.
16 MR. KRICKBAUM: if you could go back to binder
17 1. And once you're at that, if you could flip to tab 13.
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Sorry. Okay.
19 MR. KRICKBAUM: I don't think we looked at this
20 photo yesterday and I just wanted to see if you recognize
21 this room that's in tab 13.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's on the first floor, when
23 you walk in the main door, it's the first door to the right.
24 MR. KRICKBAUM: And what was this room used for?
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: For meetings with people that --
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22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- whether whether itit was was having
having toto dodo
3||
3 with
with something
something at
at school
school or == atat --== school
or school being
being Penn
Penn --= oror
4||
4 meetings
meetings with
with staff
staff as toto what
as what was was going
going on on inin terms
terms ofof what
what
5|
5 1I was teaching --
was teaching --
66 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay.
17 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: -- or
-- or speaking
speaking to. to.
88 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Did Did anybody
anybody else, else, other
other than
than you,
you,
99 | use
use thisthis room
room?
1010 PRESIDENT
don't thinkthink ---- youyou mean
mean
11||
11 formally
formally used it?
used it? No. No. But But there
there waswas staff
staff inin and
and out
out ofof
12||
12 se.
it.
1313 MR. KRICKBAUM:

MR. KRICKBAUM: Fair Fair enough.
enough. II guess guess what
what I'm
I'm
11||
14 trying
trying to
to getget at,at, waswas this
this aa space
space thatthat was was primarily
primarily
15||
15 something
something you were
you using oror was
were using was Dr.Dr. Biden
Biden using
using it?it?
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, No, no,no, Jill
Jill ---- Jill
Jill didn't
didn't want
want
17||
17 any
any partpart of of anything
anything having
having to do
to do with
with the the United
United States
States
18
18 || congress,
Congress, Senate,
Senate, or my
or my teaching.
teaching. She She was was teaching.
teaching. She She
) 19||
19 set
set up up aa little
little office
office off the kitchen.
off the kitchen. You You know,
know, itit was
was
20||
20 ust
just aa round
round tabletable and and itit waswas just
just --—- there
there was
was aa big
big
21||
21 kitchen
kitchen in this place
in this place and there was
and there was kind
kind ofof anan alcove
alcove inin the
the
22||
22 front.
front.
2323 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Got Got it.it. Sounds
Sounds likelike aa woman
woman ofof
24
24 || good
good judgment
judgment to me.
to me.
25
25 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
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22 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: So So when you, for
when you, example --—- II
for example
3||
3 verieve
believe you had
you some meetings
had some meetings at Chain Bridge
at Chain when you
Road when
Bridge Road you
4||
4 were working with
were working with Mark Zuonitzer on
Mark Zwonitzer the book
on the Promise Me,
book Promise Me,
5||
5 bad.
Dad. WouldWould you meet with
you meet with Mark
Mark inin this
this room room oror somewhere
somewhere
66 etsez
else?
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: I'd I'd probably
probably meet meet with
with him
him inin
88 this
this zoon
room or or inin the living room,
the living room, youyou walk
walk inin andand walk
walk
5||
9 straight,
straight, because
because there was
there was aa nice view out
nice view back.
the back.
out the
10
10 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Is Is that
that also
also on on the
the main
main --—-
1
11 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Main floor, yeah.
Main floor, yeah.
12
12 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. All All right.
right. So So speaking
speaking ofof
13||
13 Promise
Promise Me, Dad, II think
Me, Dad, think we talked aa little
we talked little bitbit about
about that
that
14||
14 book
book yesterday,
yesterday, but
but II had had some more questions
some more questions for for you
you about
about
1s|
15 ie
it.
16
16 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: Sure. Sure
jt}
17 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: So So Mark
Mark ---- asas youyou probably
probably know,
know,
18||
18 mark
Mark recorded
recorded his conversations ---- when
his conversations when you you allall met
met toto talk
talk
19||
19 about
about the the book,
book, he he made
made recordings
recordings of those
of those conversations
conversations
20||
20 and
and wewe have
have some
some of them. InIn some
of them. some ofof the the recordings
recordings you you
21||
21 spoke
spoke to to him
him about
about wanting
wanting to gather
to gather some some materials
materials from from
22||
22 your
your time
time as as Vice President that
Vice President that you
you could
could useuse asas reference.
reference.
23||
23 And
And you
you specifically
specifically talked about
talked about gathering
gathering notebooks
notebooks thatthat
24||
24 you
you had
had written
written in. Do
in. Do you recall trying
you recall trying toto collect
collect those
those
25||
25 notebooks
notebooks that you
that you could
could useuse them
them when
when you you were
were talking
talking --==
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1|1 10:06:06.3)
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22 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: -- Mark?
== toto Mark?
33 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not, Not, not specifically
not specifically.
44 But look,
But look, what II was
what doing, II was
was doing, was writing book
writing aa book
5||
5 about
about how how the the family
family responded
responded to aa son
to son we we knew
knew was
was dying.
dying.
6|6 And
And so so if if IT were
were -- -- ifif BeauBeau hadhad just
just gotten
gotten aa newnew diagnosis
diagnosis
77| on
on something,
something, where
where was was I? I? Was Was II inin country,
country, waswas I,I, you
you
8||
8 xnow
know -- -- what
what was was I,I, what
what was was II doing
doing atat the the time.
time. And And this
this
9||
9 is
is when
when II was was Vice President asas well,
Vice President well, because
because hehe waswas
10
10 || diagnosed
diagnosed when that occurred.
when that occurred. So that's
So that's the the context
context inin
11|
11 which
which II was was looking.
looking. II actually
actually got got the the book,
book, and
and II started
started
12||
12 to
to look
look through
through it.
it. II haven't
haven't seen itit inin aa long
seen long time.
time. And And
13||
13 there
there are
are connections
connections to aa certain
to certain diagnosis
diagnosis and and where
where II
14||
14 physically
physically was,
was, what
what I, I, what
what II -- -- and
and whatwhat mymy thinking
thinking atat
15
15 || the
the time
time was was about
about what
what II shouldshould oror shouldn't
shouldn't bebe doingdoing
16||
16 really.
really. It
It wasn't
wasn't about --== itit was
about was more
more like like having
having aa
17
17 || calendar
calendar in
in front
front of you.
of you. You You know,
know, like,like, ifif your
your wife
wife said
said
16
18 || why
why don't
don't you
you write
write aa book
book about
about how how we we met
met and
and where
where wewe met
met
15||
19 and
and whet
what == -- well,
well, you'd want
you'd want toto know,
know, well well let
let meme see,
see, when
when
20
20 (| did
did we we meet,
meet, you you know.
know. II remember
remember the the day day that
that II met
met inin
21||
21 1962,
1962, but but anyway.
anyway. But my
But my point
point is,is, youyou know,
know, itit was
was more
more toto
22||
22 give
give me me context,
context, writing
writing about it.it. Because
about Because II havehave toto ---- you
you
23|[
23 won't
won't be be surprised,
surprised, it was
it was aa very,
very, very,
very, very very hard
hard book
book toto
24||
24 write.
write.
25
25 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Yeah. Yeah. We We understand.
understand. Having Having --—-
EREReporting
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FREE
Court
STATE
ReportingREPORTING, INC.
Transcription
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11 [0:08:12.6)
[0:08:12.6]
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- read it, that makes sense.
3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, you know, if you read it,
know, there's
you know,
44|| you there's some references
some references to where
to opposed
was, asas opposed
where II was,
5 to anything having to do with where I was. At least that's
| || what © shi son.

6 what I think about.
7 MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you know where your notebooks
88 were
were in
in the
the time
time period
period immediately after
immediately after your
your term
term as
as Vice
Vice
9 President?
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, but I think that what they
11 did, they gathered up my notebooks and I think they were in
12 drawers in this room.
13 MR. KRICKBAUM: In this room, in tab 13, the
14
14 first-level
first-level office?
office?
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. Well, I'm not sure if
16 they were all in one place, but I think that's where they
17 would mainly be because there was a -- there was a -- this
18 -- you walk in, there was a fireplace in the middle of this
19 room. If you went left you walked through a little hallway
20 and you went into what was a living room, a more formal
21 living room. But you passed a little alcove that had file
22 drawers -- I mean, had -- I think it had bookcases and, you
23 know, drawers beneath it. But my guess would be there or in
24 the bookshelves. I don't know. I don't remember.
25 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. I want to ask you

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22 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: =-- Mr. President,
-- Mr. President, about
about aa meeting
meeting
33 vou
you hadhad with
with MarkMark in in February
February ofof 2017.
2017. So So you
you were
were meeting
meeting
44 to
to talk
talk about things
about things that that you
you were
were working
working on on inin the
the course
course
5||
5 of
of writing
writing the book.
the book. So you had
So you had just
just ended
ended your
your Vice
Vice
6||
6 Presidency
Presidency about aa month
about month earlier.
earlier. And And atat least
least according
according toto
77 your
your schedule,
schedule, on
on February
February 16th ofof 2017
16th 2017 you
you were
were scheduled
scheduled
8||
8 to meet
to meet withwith MarkMark at Chain Bridge
at Chain Bridge Road
Road and
and hehe recorded
recorded the the
9||
9 meeting.
meeting. And
And so so based
based on on his
his notes
notes itit appears
appears thatthat you
you
10||
10 talked
talked about
about aa lot lot of of ---- you covered aa lot
you covered lot ofof ground
ground during
during
11||
11 that
that conversation,
conversation, including some
including very, you
some very, you know,
know, difficult,
difficult,
12||
12 emotional
emotional subjects,
subjects, as you
as you referenced.
referenced. And And then
then atat one
one
13||
13 point
point ==
-- and
and I'mI'm giving
giving you this
you this asas context
context forfor the
the question
question
14||
14 I'm
I'm about
about to to askask — -- at at one
one point,
point, youyou know,
know, itit appears
appears from
from
15||
15 the
the recording
recording that you
that you were speaking toto him
were speaking him about
about meetings
meetings
16||
16 you
you hadhad as Vice President.
as Vice President. There There waswas aa meeting
meeting about
about Iraq
Irag
17||
17 that
that you you spoke
spoke to to himhim about.
about. And And inin that
that meeting,
meeting, according
according
18||
18 to
to what
what you said toto Mr.
you said Zwonitzer, the
Mr. Zwonitzer, the question
question camecame upup ofof
19||
19 will
will we ever see
we ever see aa unified
unified Iraq Iraq inin our
our lifetime.
lifetime. And And inin
20||
20 talking
talking to that --
to that about that
-- about that to Mark,
to Mark, you
you then
then made
made aa
21||
21 comparison
comparison to Afghanistan.
to Afghanistan. And you
And you told
told him
him thethe story
story ofof
22||
22 the
the fact
fact of of ---- the memo, the
the memo, the handwritten
handwritten memo,
memo, that
that wewe just
just
23||
23 looked
looked at. at. And And you you said that you
said that you wrote
wrote the
the President
President the the
24||
24 memo,
memo, you you told
told the President that
the President that the
the day
day wewe left
left
25||
25 Afghanistan,
Afghanistan, it
it would
would be the same
be the same asas the
the day
day before
before we we --—-
Count
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11 (0:11:07.5)
[0:11:07.5]
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- arrived. And in the course of
3 explaining that memo about Afghanistan, you said to Mark, "I
4 just found all the classified stuff downstairs." And so you
5 can imagine we are curious what you meant when you said, "I
6 just found all the classified stuff downstairs."
7 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't remember. And I'm not
88 supposed
supposed to
to speculate,
speculate, right?
right?
9 MR. BAUER: Correct.
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: So -- okay, well, I don't
11 remember and it may have been -- I just don't remember.
12 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Do you remember telling
13 Mark about the handwritten memo that you had written to
14 President Obama?
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I probably did. I don't
16 remember specifically, but my guess is I may have done that.
17 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Do you remember telling him,
18 "I just found all the marked classified stuff downstairs?"
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Marked?
20 MR. KRICKBAUM: Telling Mark? Do you remember
21 saying that to him?
23 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Do you remember actually
24 finding any classified stuff downstairs?
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No. The only thing I can --
CourtReporting
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D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 10:12:37.6)
[0:12:37.6]
| 22 2RESIORNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: wanted toto bebe
remember isis II wanted
BI0BN: --= remember
3 clear to him that I didn't want what he just heard me say
4 about the memo to Barack, even though it wasn't a Top Secret
| 5||
5 thing
thing (indiscernible
(indiscernible 0:12:39.5),
0:12:39.5), didn't, II didn't
II didn't, any
want any
didn't want
| that mentioned,
of that
66 of mentioned, it confidential. II didn't
was confidential.
it was not
didn't ---- not
} 7||
7 confidential
confidential in
in the classification sense,
the classification sense, but
but don't,
don't, don't
don't
8||
8 write
write about
about that. that. That's
That's off the record.
off the record. That's
That's notnot
9||
9 something
something II want
want to to be talking about
be talking about inin the
the book
book about
about Beau.
Beau.
10
10 MR. KRICKBAUM: At
MR. KRICKBAUM: At this
this point
point inin time,
time, youyou know,
know,
11||
11 around
around aa month month or or so so after
after you you left
left the
the Vice
Vice Presidency,
Presidency,
12
12 || were
were you you stillstill in
in thethe process
process of going
of going through
through your
your stuff
stuff atat
13||
13 CBR,
CBR, to to see see whatwhat was packed where
was packed where andand where
where everything
everything was?was?
u
14 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Well, Well, II don't
don't specifically
specifically
15||
15 remember,
remember, but II can't
but can't imagine
imagine not. II mean,
not. mean, they
they just
just drop
drop
16||
16 all
all these
these boxes
boxes in in thethe library
library and boxes
and boxes inin the,
the, inin that
that --—-
17||
17 there's
there's aa hallway
hallway in the back
in the back ofof thethe garage.
garage. AA lotlot ofof stuff
stuff
18||
18 in
in the
the garage
garage itself,
itself, boxes piled up.
boxes piled up. AndAnd my
my problem
problem was,
was.
19||
19 where
where in in thethe hell hell is all
is all thisthis stuff
stuff going.
going. YouYou know,
know, II
20||
20 mean,
mean, it it waswas just just taking up
taking up aa lot
lot ofof room.
room. And
And ---- but
but itit
21||
21 wasn't
wasn't so
so muchmuch II was was looking
looking for anything.
for anything. ItIt was,
was, like,
like,
22||
22 well,
well, what
what do do II clear
clear out.
out. You know,
You know, what
what do
do II get
get out
out ofof
23||
23 the
the way,
way, sitting
sitting near
near a a hallway
hallway or it's
or it's inin the
the garage
garage oror
24
24 it's
it's in,
in, you you know,know, in this library.
in this library. ItIt was was more
more inin that
that
25||
25 context
context II can
can recall
recall thinking about
thinking about what
what was
was inin boxes.
boxes.
Couet
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11 [0:14:02.1]
[0:14:02.1]
22 MR.
KRICKBAUM: Okay.
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Not like
BIDEN: Not I'm looking
like I'm for
looking for
44| something,
something, like I'm
like I'm trying
trying to
to compile
compile things.
things. But
But just
just
5||
5 what'd
what'd they
they pack
pack up,
up, what's here.
what's here.
66 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: II want
want to
to see
see ifif there's
there's anything
anything
7||7 else
else --
-- any
any other
other things that you
things that you remember
remember about
about this
this day.
day.
8||
8 And
And so
so the
the schedule
schedule shows that you
shows that you had
had an
an appointment
appointment from
from
9|9 8:30
8:30 to
to 99 a.m. with Im·
a.m. with [EEE]. Do you
Do you know
know what
what that
that would
would be
be
10||
10 referring
referring to?
to?
1
11 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, II had
BIDEN: Yeah, had --—- they
they had
had operated
operated
12||
12 on
on my
my shoulder
shoulder and it was
and it was aa workout schedule.
workout schedule.
1313 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. And
KRICKBAUM: Okay. And then
then from
from 10
10 toto 11
11 you
you
14||
14 had
had aa scheduling
scheduling meeting at the
meeting at the house
house at
at CBR
CBR with
with Steve
Steve
15||
15 Ricchetti,
Ricchetti, INCE. MENNECINNNN., andltlll
20d
16||
16 NENNNNNEN- Do
Do vou,
you, do you recall
do you recall anything,
anything, I'd
I'd expect
expect
17||
17 not,
not, from that particular
from that particular meeting?
meeting?
18
18 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, that
BIDEN: No, that wouldn't
wouldn't be
be unusua1
unusual inin
15||
19 the
the sense
sense that
that they
they were the day-to-day
were the day-to-day people.
people. Like,
Like, you'd
you'd
20||
20 see
see ••J•IPwalking in, and
walking in, and p•J•!P,
[ESSE and
and 1111.
EE. But
But that
that ---- you
you
21||
21 know,
know, just
just what's
what's goin' on kind
goin' on kind of
of thing.
thing. What's
What's the
the day
day
22
22 | look
look like.
like.
2323 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: And And then you had
then you had lunch
lunch atat the
the Four
Four
24||
24 Seasons
Seasons Hotel
Hotel at
at Georgetown.
Georgetown.
25
25 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
EIDEN: II ate there all
ate there all the
the time.
time.
FREEReporting
Court
Court Raporting
STATE INC.
Transeription
REPORTING, INC.
Transcription
D.C.
D.C. Area 301-261-1505
Area 301-261-1902
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35
11 {0:15:16.0]
[0:15:16.0)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: What'd I do there at the Four
3 Seasons? Who'd I have lunch with?
4 MR. KRICKBAUM: Actually, I'm not sure.
5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I have no idea.
6 MR. KRICKBAUM: Still have to figure that out.
7 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't remember.
8 MR. KRICKBAUM: And is there anything that you
9 remember about what you were doing at the house before your
' 10
10 meeting
meeting with Mark that
with Mark that day,
day, which
which would
would have
have been
been in
in the
the
11 afternoon? It started at 3:00, according to your schedule.
12 It could have changed based on events.
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Had I already decided who I was
14 taking to Penn with me? Had that all been settled by this
15 time? I don't remember.
16 MR. KRICKBAUM: You mean which people --
18 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- were going to work with you at
19 Penn? I don't know the answer (indiscernible 0:15:57.0).
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't remember. Because there
21 were discussions that were going on, like, you know, do I
22 hire Tony to come on, do I hire so-and-so, will they provide
23 -- how much will they pay so-and-so to do -- you know, to be
24 a professor, that kind of thing. You know, the mechanics of
25 what would -- what I'd be doing at Penn and who I'd be --

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36
11 [0:16:15.5)
[0:16:15.5)
22 PRESIONNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: —— able Sake with
able toto take me. But
with me. But IT
3||
3 don't
don't know that.
know that. that was
mean, that
I1 mean, things inin thisthis
one ofof thethe things
was one
time person
4|4 ime period tm trying toto work
I'm trying zighe? Yeah.
cha right?
out. Is1s that
work out. Yeah.
5 5|| Because
Because 11m
I'm outout ofof th~ the Vice
vice Presidency
Presidency and and I'm1'm now
now going
gotng toto
6 6| enn,
Penn, signer
right? maa
Had stuse
stuff been sent
been sent toto Penn?
vennz This This stuff's
stuse's
7 7| rom
from penn.
Penn. I1 done
don't remember {indiscernible
remember (indiscernible 0:16:42.0)
0:16:42.0) timetine
8 of in
in.
s9 wn. RTCREN: Well

MR. KRICKBAUM: Wll --—
1010 eReSTORNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIOEN: Anyway.
Anyway.
a11 VR.
MR. KRICKEAM:
KRICKBAUM: -- —- perhaps
perhaps maybe
maybe I'llT'11 askask you
you
12||
12 another
another question,
question, tr. president.
Mr. President.
113 ergsTonNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: SIE: Sure.Sure.
14
14 MR. KRICKBAUM: You said
MR. KRICKBAUM: said --
-- well,
well, II think
think we
we
15||
15 talked
talked yesterday,
yesterday, in the
in the basement
basement ofof Chain
Chain Bridge
Bridge Road
Road you
you
16
16 had
had the
the office
office that you used
that you used there.
there. Is that
Is that right?
right?
117 PRESIOBNT BIDEN: Yeah.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. ItTt was
was more
more ofof aa
16||
18 combination
combination family
family room, meeting
room, meeting room,
room. television
television room,
zoom. you
vou
19 know, staff room. I mean, it wasn't -- you know, it just --
20||
20 1%
I'm aa frustrated
frustrated architect and
architect and I wanted
wanted toto setset itit upup soso itit
21||
21 1ocked
looked nice.
nice. and
And TI was
was eveneven talking
talking about,
about, dodo IT spend
spend thethe
22||
22 money
money 5 if they'd
they'd allow meme and
allow and put
put inin aa swimming
swimning pool
pool outout
23||
23 there
there kind
kind of of thing.
thing. 7111's going,
Jill's going, what
what areare you
you doing,
doing, what
what
24||
24 are
are you
you talking
talking about, stop.
about, stop. And And butbut itit was
was inin thethe context
context
25|| ofof making
25 making the the place
place looklock nice nice and
and livable
livaple and and feel
feel like
like
Court Reporting. Teanetripeion
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 [0:17:51.2]
[0:17:51.2]
2
2 sxgszonyr BIoEN: --—- home.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: home.
:
3 Mi.
MR. ERICA:
KRICKBAUM: Okay.Okay. And And you
you said
seid toto
o|
4 ve.
Mr. svominser,
Zwonitzer, =I nad suns found
had just sown alla12 thesme classified
cravsteren stuff
svar
5|
5 dommotaire.
downstairs. What I vant
what want toto trytry toto understand, Febsussy
understand, inin February
6|
6 ofof 2017,
2017, are there any
are there any other
other places, other
places, other than
than Chain
Chain Bridge
bridge
7]
7 sone
Road that
that you
you costa
could nave been talking
have been taking about
abot whenwhen you
you said
sata
of
8 eats
that?
1010 We. ERICKA: 2nd I guess —

MR. KRICKBAUM: And I guess
11 SRESTOINE BIOEN. Trying

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Teying tove think.
whink. IThad Chain
had Chain
12||
12 Bridge
Bridge Road
Road as
as aa residence.
residence. II had
had pulled
pulled ---- I'm
I'm out
out ofof the
the
13||13 vice
Vice prestdent's
President's restaence, right?
residence, rights
214 5.
MR. ANIA
KRICKBAUM: Yes. YE. You
Ye had nd moved
wavR outon: more
wee thanShen
15||
15 aa month
month
i”16 SRBREOONT SEDMNG And

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Ted allSLL of95 that
YRS stuff
SUSE hadn't
Gaus
17|
17 been
been sent
sent toto nymy saxage
garage €loor
floor in Delaware,
in Delaware, had had it?itz DoDo wewe
18 know?
19 MR. KRICKBAUM: What we know, Mr. President, is
20 that the movers came to, to the Naval Observatory on January
71J
21 70
7th an
and sass us your
packed up suite and
your stuff wn moved
moves into
snse Chain
sidin Bridge
Besse
22| nos
22 Road that
that same
same aay.
day.
223 SRESIOENT BIDEN: Gotcha.

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Gotcha. But
But nothing
nething moved
moved to0
24
24 Wilmington?
Wilmington? There's
There's only
only one
one other
other residence
residence II had,
had, my
my
25||
25 oxigtnatty,
originally, the take --—- you
the lake refer --—
you refer
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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[PS
1 [0:18:59.1]
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: Right.
3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It's no lake. It's a pond, but
4 -- okay, no, I can't think of anything -- any other place.
55 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: And II guess
KRICKBAUM: And guess looking
looking at,
at, you
you know,
know,
66 the
the evidence
evidence taken together,
taken together, one
one simple
simple theory
theory -- and
and I'm
I'm
7||
7 just
just going
going to
to ask
ask you if you
you if you have
have anything
anything you
you want
want toto add
add
8 when I explain this theory. If the answer is no, the answer
9 is no.
i 1
11 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: One simple
KRICKBAUM: One simple theory
theory would
would be
be that
that
12 when you told Mark Zwonitzer in February of 2017, and you
13 were talking about Afghanistan, that you just found all
14 classified stuff downstairs, what you meant was you just
15
15 found
found all
all the
the classified
classified documents about
documents about Afghanistan
Afghanistan that
that
16 were later found in your garage in the lake house. And so,
17||
17 we're
we're trying
trying to understand
to understand if that's what
if that's what you
you meant
meant oror not.
not.
18 And I understand you've told us you don't remember, but our
19 question is really if there's anything else -- any other
20 memory or thought you have on this that you want to share
21 with us as we try to make sense of the evidence.
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Other than, only thing I can
23
23 think
think of
of is
is I was
was referring
referring to him
to him that
that II knew
knew of
of the
the
24 President the memo I wrote to the President, I didn't
enone weve,
25 want that in use for any reason.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 o:20:17.01
[0:20:17.0]
i 22 KRICKBAUM: Okay.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. Okay. And think we
And II think this
covered this
we covered
33| the beginning
at the
at beginning of
of our conversation today,
our conversation well,
but ---- well,
today, but
44| actually
actually we talked
we talked about the incident
about the incident with
with Mr.
Mr. - you
you
5||
5 said
said you you were
were told told thatthat youyou had given stuff
had given stuff toto Mr._,
ur. JESU.
66 but
but youyou didn't
didn't know ---- you
know you don't
don't remember
remember that that and
and you
you
7||
7 dian't
didn't know
know what those documents
what those documents vere?
were?
| °8 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No. No. II justjust knowknow anything
anything thatthat
9||
9 vas
was so so clearly
clearly marked confidential II just
marked confidential just took
took and
and said
said
10||
10 return
return it,
it, getget it it outout of of here.
here. That'sThat's what what II know.
know. AndAnd II
11||
11 vas
was telling
telling the team that
the team that that's
that's whatwhat II would
would dodo with
with it.it. II
12||
12 mean,
mean, again,
again, they said,
they said, well,
well, yeah, -JESSHN was
yeah, was your
your body
body
13||
13 guy
guy forfor aa while,
while, he
he remembers
remembers you you saying
saying toto himhim boom,
boom, return
return
11||
14 this.
this.
15
15 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: So So inin February
February ofof 2017,
2017, when
when you
you
16||
16 nad
had this
this conversation
conversation with Mark
with Mark Zwonitzer,
Zwonitzer, II believe
believe that
that
17||
17 we
Mr. - was
was still
still your body
your body guy.
guy. I'm I'm trying
trying toto get
get aa
18||
18 sense
sense of, of, ifif youyou had found classified
had found classified documents atat that
documents that
19||
19 time,
time, whatwhat would
would you you havehave done
done with
with them?
them? Who Who would,
would, whowho
20||
20 would
would you you have
have given
given them them to?
to?
2
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II would would havehave given
given toto him
him toto
22||
22 give
give backback to to the
the —- -- you know, toto the
you know, the agency.
agency.
2
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. IsIs therethere anyone
anyone else
else that
that
24||
24 you
you cancan think
think of that you
of that you would
would havehave —-
2525 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Well, Well, ifif II ---- my my former
former ----
Foes state REPORTING,
ReroRTING, INC.
Courto.c.Reporting
Reporting Transeription
FREE STATE INC.
Court Transcription
D.C. Area
Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1508
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DosHCHURaEZ0
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000230
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40
11 (0:21:25.7]
[0:21:25.7]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- chief of staff was sitting
3 talking to me, if my -- if, you know, I, I, I would hand it
4 to them. It usually was a staff responsibility to return
J5 this stuff.
;7 PRESIDENT BIDEN: 0
SHGRTIRNT TREN 9 4% ver Tite 4% ven, you
So it wasn't like it was,
8 know, I'd call my chief of staff or the head of the foreign
9 relations committee or whatever.
10 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. I want to look at a few
11 more documents.
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Sure.
13 MR. KRICKBAUM: So if you could go
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's kind of a neat room,
15 though, isn't it?
16 MR. KRICKBAUM: It's a beautiful room.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I like the sun in there, too.
18 MR. HUR: Marc, before you move onto in the
19
19 specific
specific documents,
documents, can just ask
can I just ask aa couple
couple follow
follow ups?
ups?
20 MR. KRICKBAUM: Please.
21 MR. HUR: So I wanted to follow up on something
22 that you said a couple of minutes ago, Mr. President, where
23 you were recalling the I think you said they gathered up
24 the notebooks and put them someplace, referring to the Chain
25 Bridge Road residence. And I just wanted to ask, who --
clFREE STATE REPORTING, INC.

D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000231
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1]1 10:22:23.0)
[0:22:23.4]
22 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: -- -- would
would bebe the
the "they"?
"thoy"?
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: No, that's not
No, that's not what
what II meant.
meant.
4||
4 The
The notebooks
notebooks would have come
would have come in
in inin aa box
box dropped
dropped somewhere.
somewhere.
5||
5 so
So there
there was vas notebooks
notebooks inin the the hallway,
hallvay, thethe living
living room,
room, allall
6|6 over.
over. II mean,
mean, not notebooks, but
not notebooks, but boxes.
boxes.
77 MR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay.
88 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: So So I'm
I'm going
going toto be
be living
living there
there
9|| so
so II said,
said, clear this place
clear this place out.
out. So what
so what II probably
probably diddid waswas
10||
10 go
go through
through and and found, found book
found, found book ---- found
found boxes
boxes that
that had
had
11||
11 notebooks
notebooks in in them.
them. II gathered
gathered the the notebooks
notebooks up up and
and II put
put
12
12 || them
them in in basically
basically one place. And
one place. And II think
think they
they were
were put
put inin
13||
13 the Library
the library in that
in indentation II referenced.
that indentation referenced. And And ---- but
but
14||
14 that's the
that's best of
the best of my
my recollection.
recollection.
15
15 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Okay,
Okay, thank
thank you.
you.
16
16 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: You You said
said that
that ifif you
you had
had found
found
17||
17 classified
classified documents atat this
documents this point
point inin February
February —- ifif ---- you you
18||
18 would
would nave given that
have given that to to or another
or another staff
staff member?
member?
19
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
Yeah. II would
would have
have gotten
gotten rid
rid
20||
20 of
of them.
them. II would
would havehave gotten
gotten them
them back
back toto their
their source.
source.
2
21 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: And why?
And why?
22
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Because what
BIDEN: Because what would
would II do?
do? II
23||
23 wasn't
wasn't goinggoing to to keep
keep them
them for anything. II had
for anything. had nono purpose
purpose
24
24 for
for them,
them, andand II think
think itit would
would be be inappropriate
inappropriate for for meme toto
25||
25 keep
keep clearly
clearly classified documents.
classified documents. Now Now ifif II had
had written
written --—-
Const Reporting. Tranccription
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11 r0:23:31.0)
[0:23:31.4]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: notes inin my
-- notes they're my
book, they're
my book, my
3||
3 notes
notes and and they're
they're my property,
my property, but but that
that document
document isis not
not my my
4||
4 property.
property.
55 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: And And waswas itit your understanding
your understanding
6||
6 after
after you
you left
left the Vice
the Vice Presidency
Presidency that that atat least
least forfor marked
marked
77| classified
classified documents
documents that
that belonged
belonged to the
to the government,
government, that that
8[|
8 you
you were
were not not authorized
authorized to have
to have those
those atat your your house
house after
after
9|| you
you were
were vice President? was
Vice President? that your
Was that your understanding?
understanding?
1010 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II didn't didn't think think ofof itit that way.
that way.
11|[
11 1I just
just thought
thought of
of what would II need
what would need them
them for for and
and II had
had nono
12||
12 authority
authority to
to have them. II mean,
have them. mean, why why would
would II -- look,look, soso II
13||
13 mean,
mean, II -- -- just
just aa continuation
continuation of an
of an eight-year
eight-year habit,
habit, ofof
14||
14 returning
returning classified
classified information toto its
information its source.
source. II mean,
mean, II
15||
15 don't
don't think
think it
it was
was conscious,
conscious, like oh
like oh wait
wait aa minute,
minute, II got got
16||
16 to
to change
change my my policy
policy now here.
now here. I'm I'm nono longer
longer Vice
Vice President.
President.
17||
17 Why
Why would
would II keep keep them?
them? And ---- anyway.
And anyway.
1818 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. But But II think,
think, II think
think itit
19||
19 would
would be be helpful
helpful for
for us us toto understand
understand ---- II think think with
with
20||
20 respect
respect to
to your
your notebooks,
notebooks, that you
that you wrote
wrote by by hand,
hand, youyou view
view
21||
21 those
those as as yours
yours —- --
22
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: They They areare mine.
mine.
2323 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: -- ~-- and
and youyou were
were authorized
authorized toto have have
24||
24 them
them?
25
25 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And every
every President
President before
before me me --—-
FREEReporting
INC.
CourtD.C.Reporting
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D.C. Area
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43
1]1 10:24:36.0)
[0:24:36.1]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- has done the
has done the same exact
same exact
33| thing.
thing.
a4 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: And And I'm not arguing
I'm not arguing with
with youyou about
about
5|
5 that
that right
right now, Mr.
now, Mr. President.
President.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: ITI just just want
want toto make
make sure
sure we're
we're
77 on
on the
the same
same page. page.
88 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Well, Well, I'mI'm not not meaning
meaning toto address
address
9|9 that
that topic
topic right
right now.
now. II just
just want
want toto makemake sure
sure that
that you're
you're
10||
10 not
not making
making the the same claim about
same claim about aa marked
marked classified
classified document
document
11||
11 that
that waswas created
created by the United
by the United States
States Government.
Government. You're You're
12||
12 not
not saying
saying that
that was mine, II could
was mine, could havehave thatthat ifif II wanted
wanted it.it.
13
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II never never mademade thatthat argument.
argument. II
14
14 || don't
don't know
know if if that argument isis legitimate,
that argument legitimate, but but II never
never made
made
15||
15 that
that argument
argument and II never
and never responded
responded that that wayway intentionally.
intentionally.
16
16 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. That helps
That helps meme understand
understand
17||
17 where
where the the line line is for you.
is for you. So So let's
let's looklook atat the
the documents
documents
18||
18 that
that II referenced
referenced earlier.
earlier. If you
If you could
could take take ---- go back
qo back toto
15||
19 binder
binder 2.2.
20
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Right Right here.
here.
21
21 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: And And if you turn
if you turn toto the
the second
second tab tab
22||
22 there,
there, it says "Facts
it says "Facts First" on
First" on that
that tab.tab.
23
23 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Okay. Okay. You You guysguys been
been workin'
workin'
24
24 like
like hell.
hell. That's
That's aa compliment.
compliment. II don't don't meanmean that
that inin aa bad
bad
25||
25 way.
way. It's
It's aa lot
lot to put this
to put this together.
together.
mez sate REpoRTING, TNC.
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44
11f| w0:2si33.7
[0:25:33.7]
22 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. Understood. I'll
KRICKEAUM: Understood. I'LL wait for
wait for
3||
3 everybody
everybody to get
to get there.
there. II think
think we're
we're mostly
mostly there.
there. SoSo
44| this
this 1s
is what
what appears
appears to bebe aa red
to red folder
folder with
with handwriting
handwriting onon
' 55 it.
it. And
And by the way,
by the Mr. President,
way, Mr. President, the
the next
next few
few documents
documents
66 I'm
I'm going to go
going to go through
through with you were
with you were found
found in
in your
your garage
garage
77| at
at the
the lake
lake house.
house. I'm telling
I'm telling you you thatthat for
for context.
context.
59 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Do Do you
you recognize
recognize this this folder?
folder?
PRESIDENT EIDEN: No.
n11 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: How How about
about the the handwriting?
handwriting? IsIs
12||
12 that
that your
your handwriting?
handwriting?
313 ERESTDENT BIDEN: ItIt looks

PRESIDENT EIDEN: looks like,like, itit looks
looks like
like my
my
14||
14 handwriting.
handwriting.
1
15 MR. KRICKBAUM: And
MR. KRICKBAUM: And thethe phrase
phrase "Facts
"Facts First,"
First," does
does
16||
16 that
that have
have any significance to
any significance you?
to you?
PU17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, II was
was trying
trying toto remember
remember --
16||
18 II mean,
mean, when
when II saw
saw that
that today
today II didn't
didn't know know whether
whether that
that
19||
19 related
related to something oror itit was
to something was just
just me me whowho was
was saying
saying --—- IT
20||
20 don't
don't know.
know. Was there aa document
Was there document "Facts "Facts First,"
First,” II don't
don't
21|
21 know.
know.
22
22 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKEAUM: As As II said
said aa minute
minute ago,
ago, this
this
23||
23 folder had
folder had several
several documents
documents related toto Afghanistan
related Afghanistan fromfrom
24|
24 2009
2009 in in ie.
it.
25
CourtReporting. Tramscripeion
5.8 ren SonBene00g

Court RQporting Transcription
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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LEE DRAFT as
45
11 (0:26:26.3) 3)
10:26:26.
22 MR. KRICKBAUM
MR. KRICKBAUM:: Do
Do you -- do
have --
you have know
you know
do you
33| anything
anything about how
about folder and
this folder
how this those documents
and those into
got into
documents got
4|4 your
your garage?
garage?

PRESIDENT EIDEN: No, other they must
than they
other than have
must have
6||
6 been
been taken
taken when
when II was Vice President
was Vice President from the
from the Vice
Vice
77 President's 's residence
President residence or
or the President's office,
Vice President's
the Vice office, to
to the
the
8|
8 --
-- where
where was was II —- -- did
did II have
have the the Penn
Pemn office
office yet.
yet. II think
think
99| either
either to
to the
the Penn
Penn office
office or
or toto the
the residence Wilmington.
residence inin Wilmington.
| 10||10 mean, that's
1I mean, that's the only
the thing II can
only thing think of.
can think of.
111 MR. KRICKAUM: There
MR. KRICKEAUM: There werewere also also documents
documents from from the
the
12||
12 waval Observatory,ry, or
Naval observato or materials
materials from the
from the Naval Observatory,
Naval Observatory,
13||
13 that
that were
were moved
moved to to Chain Bridge Road.
Chain Bridge Road. IsTs that that —-
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Okay.
Okay.
1515 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM
KRICKEAUM: : --~-- isis that
that your your ---- I'm
I'm asking
asking
16|16 actually.
actually. That's
That's aa question.
question. Do you
Do you know
know that?
that?
117 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: EIDEN: Well, I'm
Well, I'm sure,
sure, I'm
I'm sure
sure there
there
16||
18 were.
were. II don't
don't know
know -- -- mymy problem
problem was was II never
never knew
knew where
where any
any
15||
19 of
of the
the documents
documents or
or boxes
boxes were specifically coming
were specifically coming fromfrom oror
20||
20 who
who packed
packed them.them. Just
Just diddid II getget them
them delivered
delivered toto me. me. And
And
21||21 so
so this
this is
is —--- I'm,
I'm, at at this
this stage,
stage, in 2009,
in 2009, am am II still
still Vice
Vice
2222 President? ?
president
23 23 (Indiscerniblenible whisperin
(Indiscer whispering g 0:27:42.3).
0:27:42.3).
224 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Yeah, okay.
Yeah, okay.
2525 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM
KRICKEAUM: : So So itit looks
looks like like you're
you're --—
Count
Court Raposting Transcription ion
Tsansiripc
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Reporting
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46
| wanarn
1 (0:27:47.3)
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: flipping ahead, which is great
3 because I'm --
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm sorry, I thought that you
5 wanted
6 MR. KRICKBAUM: No, no, you're fine, Mr.
7 President. If you could flip to tab B7. I'm actually not
8 going to go through all of these with you today.
10 MR. KRICKBAUM; But B7, the first page there just
11 says tab 1 and then second page, which is -- it ends at
12 Bates number 18. I want to make sure we're all looking at
13 the same document. The subject is --
14 . PRESIDENT BIDEN: First one is
15 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- the titl~ --
16 PRESIDENT.BIDEN: Top Secret, HUMINT, COMINT it
17 says Office of the Director of National Intelligence, "Al
18 Qaeda allies pose a global threat to U.S. interests."
19 MR. KRICKBAUM: We're looking at the same one.
20 Mr. President, there's some lines underlined in the first
21 paragraph and there's a handwritten note in the margin. Is
22 that your handwriting?
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: U.S. question mark?
24 MR. KRICKBAUM: Yes.
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: In the margin?

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11 [0:28:39.8]
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22 UR. KRICKSAUM: Yeah.

MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah.
33 PRESIOBNT BIDEN: II underline
PRESIDENT BIDEN: underline documents
documents and and that
that
44| could
could be be my
my writing.
writing. II can't
can't swear
swear toto it.it.
55 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKEAOM: Okay.
Okay. When Whom ---- toto give.you
give.you some
some
6||
6 context,
context, this document
this was attached.
document was attached. There's aa memo
There's memo from
from
77 the
the National
National Security
Security Advisor toto the
Advisor the President
President inin advance
advance ofof
88 a National
National Security
Security Council
Council meeting.
meeting. And this
And this was
was an
an
o9 [| attachment
attachment to
to that memo. And
that memo. And soso my
my question
question is,is, atat least
least
10||
10 when
when you
you had
had copies
copies of
of materials
materials Like that,
like that, that
that were
were your
your
11 copies,
copies, did
did anyone
anyone else take notes
else take notes on
on your
your copies
copies of
of memos
memos
12 that
that you
you had
had as briefing material?
as briefing material?
1313 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not simultaneously,
simultaneously, but
but II ---- ifif
14||
14 II turned
turned it over
it over to my National
to my National Security
Security Advisor
Advisor toto hand
hand
15||
15 him,
him, he
he could have put
could have put notes
notes on
on it,
it, but
but not
not likely.
likely.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. You mentioned
You mentioned thethe markings
markings
1717 atat the top. Do
the top. you --== it
Do you says Top
it says Top Secret.
Secret. Any Any ofof the
the other
other
16||
18 markings,
markings, do
do you
you recognize
recognize those oror know
those know what
what they
they refer
refer to? to?
119 WR. BAUER: I'm
MR. BAUER: I'm sorry,
sorry, what
what page
page areare you
you on,
on, Marc?
Marc?
2020 MR. KRICKEAUM: I'm
MR. KRICKBAUM: I'm sorry,
sorry, I'm
I'm the
the very
very --—- it'sit's
21||
21 ated
Bated number
number 18.
18. 1's the
It's the first
first page
page ofof this
this document.
document.
222 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: So So the
the margin,
margin, meaning
meaning thethe underlining
underlining
23 in
in that
that first --
first
2024 MR.
MR. KRICKEAUM: The --=- itit says
KRICKBAUM: The says atat the
the top
top --==
25
25 WR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Oh,
Oh, IT see.
see.
Const
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11 t0:29:48.9)
[0:29:48.9]
22 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- Top

MR. KRICKBAUM: Top Secret
Secret ----
33 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: II see. see.
44 KRICKBAUM: -- HUMINT,
MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. HUMINT, COMINT, one. Do
that one.
COMINT, that Do
5||
5 you
you recognize
recognize any ofof those
any those particular
particular —-
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: All ALL II had
had toto do do was
was see
see Top
Top
77| secret.
Secret. II don't
don't remember
remember -- -- HUMINT
HUMINT means
means human
human
8|8 intelligence,
intelligence, COMINT,
COMINT, FISA FISA == no, II mean,
-- no, mean, other
other than
than --—- all
all
9|| 1I nad
had toto see
see waswas TopTop Secret.
secret.
10
MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. You You recognize
recognize those
those asas
11||
11 classification
classification markings, II assume?
markings, assume?
12
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yes. Yes.
1313 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Yeah. Yeah. And And you you have
have referred
referred aa fewfew
14||
14 times today to
times today to things
things that are
that clearly marked
are clearly marked classified
classified and and
15||
15 1I want
want to to make
make suresure II knowknow howhow you're
you're usingusing that.
that. As As far
far asas
16||
16 you
you are are concerned,
concerned, is this document
is this document clearly
clearly marked
marked asas aa
17||
17 classified
classified document?
document?
18
18 RESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yes. Yes.
19
19 MR.
MR. KRICKBAOM:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. IfIf you you thenthen flip
flip toto
20||
20 document
document B13
B13 dash
dash -- -- I'mI'm sorry,
sorry, tab B13-2.
tab BL3-2.
2
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: B13-2.B13-2. Okay. Okay.
22
22 MR. KRICKBAUM: This
MR. KRICKBAUM: This isis aa couple
couple paragraphs
paragraphs typed
typed
23||
23 up
up andand at at the
the toptop it says notes
it says notes from
from aa meeting
meeting on on
24||
24 september
September 29th,
29th, 2009, and
2009, and it it has
has aa time.
time. ItIt indicates
indicates that that
25||
25 it's
it's about
about Afghanistan/Pakistan.
Afghanistan/Pakistan. For context
For context forfor you
you --—-
eRe Reporting.
Court
Transcriprion
5.0 Area
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49
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1 [0:31:12.1]
2 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- Mr. President, there was a
33 Principal's
Principal's Committee
Committee meeting
meeting about Afghanistan/Pakistan
about Afghanistan/Pakistan on
on
4 this day. And I can see that you're reading what's typed up
5 there. Do you recognize this, sort of, vignette that's
6 typed up as something that you recall happening during a
7||
7 meeting
meeting related
related to Afghanistan
to Afghanistan back inin 2009?
back 2009?
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Generically, I do. Look, the
9 debate was -- let me move this -- the debate was, with
10||
10 McChrystal
McChrystal and
and company,
company, that ifif somehow
that somehow we
we defeated
defeated Al
Al Qaeda
Qaeda
11 and killed Bin Laden in Pakistan, we still have the same
12 level of commitment McChrystal was asking for to defeat the
13 Taliban in Afghanistan. The answer, the answer, the answer
14 Intelligence, State, and Defense was yes. Okay. I don't
15 know -- that's a question Panetta asked. So what was the
16
16 question?
question?
17
17 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you
Do you remember
remember this
this exchange
exchange that
that
18 is documented here?
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Not per se, but it was a generic
20 exchange I remember. The debate related to whether or not
21 Pakistanis were -- if we got rid of Bin Laden in Pakistan,
22 and -- Panetta asked the question of Secretary of
23 Defense and others. So he's asking what's his name from
24 Texas, who was the Secretary of Defense? Gates.
25 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKERS: Gates.
SPR,
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2 UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Gates.
33 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: Defeated Al
Defeated Al Qaeda,
Qaeda, kill
kill Bin
Bin
4 Laden in Pakistan, will we still have the same level of
5 commitment McChrystal was asking for to defeat Taliban in
6 Afghanistan. Oh, okay. The answer Intelligence, State, and
7 Defense gave was yes. In other words, this was if, in fact,
8 Al Qaeda is defeated, Bin Laden is gone, would we still be
9 making a major investment in Afghanistan? And apparently
10 the State Department and the Defense Department both said
11 yes, would have the same level.
12 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. Let's move onto B14 --
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Now, were these, these notes
14 written like they're typed like this?
15 MR. KRICKBAUM: They were typed like this in the
16 folder that was found in the garage.
18 MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you remember anything about
19 how, how this document was created?
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Because I didn't type anything.
23 MR. KRICKBAUM: Fair enough.
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, I'm not being~- I know, I'm
25 a little embarrassed, but it wasn't anything I typed so --

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22 PRESIDENT BIORN:
SRESTOBNT BIDEN: -- it very well
may very
it may that
well beba that
33 whoever
whoever my
my National
National Security
Security Advisor in
Advisor in that
that meeting,
meeting, the
the
«| smat
4 small group
group meeting,
meeting, vas asked that
was asked that question,
question, since
since hene oror
5|| sho
5 she recorded
recorded that.
that.
i 66 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Bl14-1.
KRICKBAUM: B14-1.
| ,
7 eneszonNT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: tap.
BIDEN: Yup.
] 88 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: So this
KRICKBAUM: So this is
is another
another typed
typed document.
document.
9 3|| me
The taste
title ofof itst isis countorsnsurgency
Counterinsurgency cotn versus
Coin versus
10]10 countortorrorion
Counterterrorism --
u11 eneszonwT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Bron: Yup. Yap.
12
12 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: =-- CT
KRICKBAUM: -- CT strategies.
strategies. II just
just --
-- ifif
13|13 vou
you coutd
could ==
-- 17a
I'm not. going toto ask
not going ask you
you about
about thethe substance
substance ofof
14|14 this
this document,
document, He. President, IT wonder
Mr. President, wonder ifif you
you would
would --= ifif
15
15 you
you would
would lock
look at the notes
at the notes in
in the
the margins
margins on
on page
page 2,
2, the
the
16
16 next
next page,
page, it's
it's the Bates number
the Bates number 40
40 --
-- Bates
Bates number
number 41,
41,
17]|17 Bates
Bates munbor
number 42, 42, and gust tei1
and just tell me whether
me whether that's
that's your
your
16||
18 nanducsting
handwriting oxor 1£if you
you recognize
secoonize it.it.
"19 eREsIoBT
PRESIDENT BIDRN: BIDEN: It looks
It Looks like
Like mymy handwriting.
handwriting.
2020 VR.
MR. KRICKONN:
KRICKBAUM: Okay. Okay. And And then
then II think
think that's
that's thethe
21|
21 Last
last document
document ©I wanted
wanted to to ask
ssk you you about
about inin this
this folder,
folder,
22|
22 Mr.
Mr. Brosident.
President. If you
If you couldcould turn sum toto thethe next
next tab,
tab, which
unich thethe
23|
23 big
big blue
blue tabtab is is = it it says Afghanistan folder.
says Afghanistan folder. SoSo thethe first
First
24|
24 page
page of
of that
that folder
folder 1s aa --== it's15's aa scan
is scan ofof aa manila
manila folder.
folder.
25|
25 1675
It's got
got handwriting
handwriting onon itit that
that says
saye Afghanistan
Afghanistan 2009.2009.
Couctrere neporting Feanscripeion
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2 MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you recognize that folder?
3 PRESIDENT EIDEN: It looks like my writing.
55 BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: II couldn't swear to
couldn't swear it.
to it.
‘6 i ERICK: Okay. TE you go to tab 325, this

MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. If you go to tab B25, this
7]| so a = ters & typos doesnt, 15 nas handing on st.

7 is a -- it's a typed document, it has handwriting on it.
8 It's, it's dated November 25, 2009, and it says memorandum
9 for the President from the Vice President. Is that your
10 handwriting on this document as well?
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It looks like it, yeah.
12
12 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: All right.
KRICKBAUM: All right. This says
This says that
that itit is
is aa
13 memo from for the President from you, and I will, I will
14 give you for context, Mr. President, that parts of this
15
15 typewritten
typewritten document
document that you're
that you're looking
looking at,
at, are
are
16 incorporated into the handwritten memo that you wrote to
17 President Obama, the long one that we looked at earlier. So
18 there are some parts
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Which came first?
20 MR. KRICKBAUM: This one is dated three days
21 earlier, the typewritten one is dated three days earlier.
22 And so my question is just whether you recall using this
23 memo or anything else as a resource or source material when
24 you were writing the handwritten memo?
FG.
25 PRESIDENT EIDEN: I'd have to take a look.
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2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Give me a second to look.
3 MR. KRICKBAUM: Of course, please take your time.
4 (Whispering)
55 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: (Reading)
(Reading) Now what
Now what was
was the
the
6 question you asked me?
77 MR. KRICKBAUM: II was

MR. KRICKBAUM: was asking
asking whether
whether you
you used
used the
the
8 typewritten memo in B25 as a resource or a source material
9 when you wrote the handwritten memo to President Obama?
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Possible. My guess is not,
11 because this was -- if I got this -- if I wrote this on the
12 25th, I would have already been well into writing the
13 handwritten deal with Obama, which was Thanksgiving. What
14 date did it get to him?
15 MR. KRICKBAUM: You sent it on November 28th.
16 PRESIDENT BIDEN: 28th?
17 MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah.
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I guess it's theoretically
19 possible, but I don't, I don't remember it that way.
20 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay, that's fine.
21
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: But this
But this is
is --
-- okay.
okay. (Reading)
(Reading)
22 MR. KRICKBAUM: And Mr. President, if the answer
23 is that you don't remember
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I, I don't remember the sequence
25 of the handwritten versus this, but -- and I'm reluctant --
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22 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN: speculate, but
BIDEN: ---- toto speculate, this was
but ifif this was|
33| -- -- 1I received
received this
this before II wrote
before wrote the the other, added|
was added
other, itit was
4|4 argument
argument why
why he should listen
he should listen toto my argument. I'm
my argument. talking
I'm talking
5||
5 about --
about know, "I
you know,
-- you had aa long
"I had conversation with
long conversation Bikenberry,
with Eikenberry,
6|6 yes, II urge
ves, urge youyou to to call
call him before you
him before you make decision. Karl
make aa decision. Karl
can speak
7|7 can speak for himself
for himself and he
and eloguently inin some
has eloquently
he has his
some ofof his
8||
8 cables,
cables, let me
let relay just
me relay just few things.
aa few things. Adding will
troops will
Adding troops
not speed
9|| not speed up the
up ability toto train
the ability train Afghans because......"" etet
Afghans because
10||
10 cetera.
cetera. So these are
So these criticis
are critic ismsms ofof the that was
proposal that
the proposal was
11||
11 being made
being made to President t by,
the Presiden
to the by, by others inin the
by others administration
the administration
12||
12 wanting
wanting him to
hin to double
double down Afghanistan.
down inin Afghanistan.
13
13 MR. KRICKBAU
MR. KRICKBAUM: Understood.
M: Understood.
1
14 PRESIDEN
PRESIDENT T BIDEN:
BIDEN: So my guess
So my probably was
guess isis itit probably was aa
15||
15 partial
partial source
source to what
to ended up
what II ended sending asas well
up sending well on the
on the
16||
16 28th,
28th, or whatever
or whatever date
date it was.
it was.
1717 MR. KRICKBAU
MR. KRICKBAUM: M: Okay.
Okay. ThereThere isis only other
one other
only one
18||
18 document II wanted
document wanted to to ask
ask you about inin this
you about folder. It's
this folder. It's
13||
19 B37, which
B37, which is is toward
toward the back.
the back.
20
20 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Did you say
Did you say 37 277
37 oror 27?
21
21 MR. KRICKBAU
MR. KRICKBAUM: Thirty-seven.
M: Thirty-seven.
22
22 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Okay, Okay, thank you.
thank you.
23
23 MR. KRICKBAU
MR. KRICKBAUM: M: This typewritten
another typewritten
This isis another
24||
24 document, , Mr.
document President, itit says
Mr. President, "memorandum for
says "memorandum principals"
for principals"
25||
25 at the top.
at the top. I'm not
I'm going toto ask
not going ask you about the
you about content ----
the content
Reportin
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55
21) waises
[0:41:12.8]
2
2 MR. NMICKGNN:
WR. KRICKBAUM: -- wanted you
= ofof it,6, butbk IT wanted you toto justJust
3|
3 100%
look at at the ~ there's
the -- there's some
some handwritten
handwritten notesnotes inin thethe margins
nergine
4|
4 onon the
the second
second pase.
page. ana
And if se you
you just
gust flip £150 through
through you'll
owas seesee
s|
5 notes
notes inin the margins onon several
the margins several pages. And
pages. ns IT wanted
wanted toto askask
66 if
if that
that appears
appears to be
to be your
your handwriting?
handwriting?
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It
PRESIDENTBIDEN: It's
1
hard to
s hard to tell
tell whether
whether that
that
of) -- ceit couta
8 ve. I1 mean,
could be. mean, I1 make
make stars
stars like
1ike that,
that, you
you know,
Know,
o| astertons
9 asterisks ike
like sha.
that.
"10 FR KRICKBAUM: Okay.

MR.
n11 PRESIDENT BION:

PRESIDENT Bun II don't
BIDEN: But dons --== II can't
can't swear
swear tobo
12||12 whet,
that, no.
no.
n13 A,
214 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: (Reading) The
(Reading) The issue
issue ofof transfer
transfer
15||
15 ofof atgnan
Afghan responsibitisies,
responsibilities, critical.
critical.
i”16 we.
MR. TEE
KRICKBAUM: And fos --==
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: This was -- I'm sorry. I'm
18 trying to figure out what this was.
19 JA.
MR. ERICKA:
KRICKBAUM: I© believe
baiieve this
this was
was one
one ofof thethe
20|
20 several
several memos
memos that
that the National
the National Security
Security Advisor
Advises sent
sent outout toto
21||
21 sim
the sninuipate
Principals commtsses
Committee soning forsor views
asking views about
avout various
vectous
22 proposals about troop levels. You know, the debate was
23 about how many and what was going to be the strategy. As
28||
24 you
you tno
know much
much boster
better than I1 do,do, butbur IT actually
than actasily didn't
asenrt have
have
25
25 any questions
any questions for
for you
you about
about the
the content.
content.
CEST
Court Reporting
D.C. Area
Transcription
301-261-1902
— sosworunosa
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000246
EE ORE
DRAFT 56
56
1)1 t0:42:33.0
[0:42:33.4)
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm wondering the
just wondering
I'm just context
the context
3||
3 mysere.
myself.
a4 MR. KRICKBAUM:
MR. KRICKBAUM: Yeah, Yeah, yeah,
yeah, understood.
understood. II --—-
5|
5 ur.
Mr. President,
President, if we
if we could
could ---- and
and II can
can recognize
recognize thethe desire
desire
6|6 to
to read those documents
read those documents again.
again.
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN:
BIDEN: II was was just
just trying
trying toto see
see what
what
6|8 the
the context
context was.
was.
99 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Sure. Sure. We We have
have fairly
fairly limited
limited time
time
10
10 so
so --
111 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm

PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm sorry.
sorry.
1212 MR. KRICKBAUM: -- ifif II could
MR. KRICKBAUM: could --
1313 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: By By the
the way,
way, just
just real
real quick
quick question
question
14
14 on
on that.
that. What
What is is our
our time
time situation?
situation?
1515 MS. COTTON: We're
MS. COTTON: We're 11 hour
hour and
and 10
10 minutes
minutes intointo the
the
16||
16 interview
interview for today.
for today.
17
17 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: One hour and
One hour and what?
what?
1818 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: One hour and
One hour and 1010 minutes
minutes in.in.
1919 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Got Got it.
it.
20
20 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: So So II really
really dodo need
need toto move
move on,
on,
21|[
21 ur.
Mr. president.
President.
22
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Okay, gogo ahead,
ahead, I'mI'm sorry.
sorry.
2323 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: II just had one
just had one other
other handwriting
handwriting
24
24 || question
question for
for you,
you, which
which is back toto binder
is back binder 1.1. AndAnd it's
it's tab
tab
25||
25 ©.9. Bates
Bates number 0-0-4. I'm
number 0-0-4. I'm sorry,
sorry, DSC_004.
DSC_004.
Count
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11 [0:43:36.8)
[0:43:36.8) ’
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ERT you say?
3 MR. KRICKBAUM: DSC 004.
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I have ERT.
5 MR. KRICKBAUM: I think there's a DSC.
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Here you
Here you go,
go, II got
got it.
it.
77 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: You got
KRICKBAUM:You got it?
it? This
This isis aa photo
photo of
of
8 several folders in a box.
10 MR. KRICKBAUM: And the one I wanted to ask you
11 about is it says Washington Speakers Bureau. You see that
12 one?
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Is that the one
14 MR. KRICKBAUM: It's a manila
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: next to Beau or--
! 16
16 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: It's aa manila
KRICKBAUM: It's manila folder.
folder. ItIt isis ----
17 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Further towards you.
18 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Thanks.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay, yeah.
20 MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you recognize that handwriting,
21 Mr. President? Is that yours?
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I think it's mine.
23 MR. KRICKBAUM: Okay. One second. A different
24 topic, and this is something that came up yesterday when
25 Mr. Hur was showing you photographs of the garage at the

CottD.C.uporcing.
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Transcription
Area 301-261-1902
EE — DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000248
ve
DRAFT =
58
11 [0:44:38.3]
[0:44:38.3]
2
2 MR. FRICKEMM:
WR. ~- lake
KRICKBAUM: -- You made
house. You
lake house. reference
made reference
33 to -- at
to -- some point,
at some point, some materials ended
some materials up at
ended up lake
the lake
at the
4|4 mouse you referred

and you
house and referred to tranche 2.2. And
that asas tranche
to that verre
and we're
5| vewe wanted
5 to for1ou
wanted to follow up up and understand what
and understand what you what
meant: ---- what
you meant
66 you
you were
were referring
referring to by
to by tranche
tranche 2.
2.
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Tranche 2.
Tranche 2. Give me
Give me one
one ---- II
of] dont
8 don't know.
know. You're taking about
You're talking about when
when stuff
stutt got
got delivered
delivered
o| toto tne
9 the garage?
garage?
10
10 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM:II believe
believe so.
so.
11
11 MR.
MR. HUR: the photo
HUR: And the photo that
that --
-- in
in which
which that,
that,
12|
12 hat
that exchange
exchange occurred vas
occurred was
13
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Right.
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Right.
14
14 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: -- behind tab
-- behind tab 77 in
in binder
binder 1.
1.
1s15 EReSIORNT BIDEN: Yeah,

PRESIDENTBIDEN: Yeah, okay,
okay, II see.
see.
16
16 MR.
MR. HUR: Yes, sir.
HUR: Yes, sir. So ifif II recall,
So recall, when
when you
you saw
saw
17||
17 that
that pile
pile of boxes to
of boxes to the
the right
right of
of the
the treadmill
treadmill there,
there, II
16|
18 think one
hink of the
one of things you
the things said
vou said
119 PRESIDENT BIDEN: This
PRESIDENTBIDEN: This was
was stuff
SLUCE that
that came
came after
after
20||
20 other
other stustuff had aiready been
had already been delivered
delivered toto the,
the, toto thethe
21||
21 garage.
garage. Because some ofof this
Because some this stuff
stutt relates
relates toto construction
construction
22||
22 state.
stuff. ALL
All those fans were
those fans were taken
taken down,
doun, taken
taken down
down from from thethe
20| —
23 usss
24
24 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Yes,
Yes, sir.
sir.
2
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- where
PRESIDENTBIDEN: hers weve had
had --- where
where wewe --=
rue,aaparieny
coms sere asograve, Ji:
Tomripcion
Sa
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11 [0:45:53.2]
[0:45:53.2]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- do the interviews and things.
3 So my recollection is that there were two times that boxes
4 relating to my office, the job I held, were delivered to the
5 -- my garage. And most of this stuff, I think a lot of it's
6 still sitting there, is stuff that had to do with
7||7 construction
construction and/or bringing other
and/or bringing other material
material from,
from, II guess,
guess,
8 Chain Bridge Road, whether it was furniture. This is 2021?
9 MR. HUR: Um-hum.
10 MS. COTTON: No, it's 2022.
11 MR. HUR: This photo was taken in 2022.
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, this is stuff after
13 whatever was delivered from Chain Bridge Road had well been
14 delivered. Right? I moved out of Chain Bridge Road back --
15 MR. HUR: Yes.
16
16 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- back
-- back in
in 2019
2019 or
or 2020,
2020, right?
right?
17 MR. HUR: Yes.
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: So what I was referring to in
19 tranche 2, there were other, there we_re other things and the
20 other garage door were opened on the left there. There were
21 boxes there, too.. I remember moving boxes, literally
22 physically moving them, with help, one side to the other so
23 I could get the Corvette in that garage on the left. But so
24 when I was talking about tranche, maybe I didn't follow --
25 there was a second ti~e things were piled up in the garage.
Court
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11 10:47:37.0]
[0:47:37.0]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
ERESIONNT This was
BIDEN: This first time
not thethe first
uss not and
time and
33 | the
the first
first time
time was,
was, II think,
think, back
back when
when II moved
moved out
out ofof either
either
o4| mymy vice
Vice residents
President's office,
office, ox when
or when II moved
moved out av ofof thethe Vice
vice
5s| sresicenss
residence, or II moved
or moved out
ost ofof thethe Penn
penn Biden
Biden
6||
6 center,
Center, moved
moved stuff
stuff out of
out of the
the Penn
Penn Biden
Biden Center.
Center. But there
But there
77| uss
was assterent
different stuee
stuff snin there
there onon both
both sides,
sides, II think.
think. That's
That's
8||
8 what
what II meant.
meant. In
In other
other words, aa lot
words, lot of
of this
this stuff
stuff has
has
9 o| nothing
nothing toto dodo with, with, with my
with ny being
being Vice
vice President
President oror with
with
10||
10 anything.
anything. teWe were
were sust
just doing work onon thethe house.
doing work house.
n11 MR.
MR. HOR: HUR: Okay.Okay. That's very
That's very helpful.
helpful. And And cancan
12||
12 you,
you, cancan you you tell sell thatthat byby looking
Looking atat these
these pictures
pictures from from thethe
113 size
size
114 ERESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Well, Well, II cancan tell
tell that
that byby thethe
15||
15 fans
fans to to stare
start with.
with. okay:
Okay?
116 WR.
MR. HOR: HUR: Ab, okay. And
Ah, okay. And how
how about
about --—
v17 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: And And II think,
think, II think
think that
that one one ofof
16||
18 these
these things
things isis marked
marked "careful
"careful mirror"
mirror” oror something
someching onon thethe
1519 | other
other side.
side.
»
20 MR.
MR. HORT HUR: I see. see.
221 ERESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: I'm not
I'm not mistaken.
mistaken. But But that
that
22||
22 thing
thing going
going scross, across, that's
that's no file
no file orox anything.
anything. That's
That's
23|| something
23 something toto dodo with,with, either aa mirror
either mirror oror some
some --<= something
something
24||
24 that
that ts furnicure related,
is furniture related, II think.
think. But But I'm
I'm notnot certain.
certain.
225 MR.
MR. HOR: HUR: Understood.
Understood. Okay.
Okay.
hee sme rasoseave, ave.
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1]1 tozas:07.11
[0:49:07.1)
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: II think
think it's
it's still
still there.
there. II
3||
3 haven't
haven't been home inin so
been home so long.
long. They
They told
told meme I'd
I'd be
be out
out ofof
4||
4 the
the house
house NEUES; usss it'11 be
; it'll ve NEES usss
I
s5| (raughter)
(Laughter)
66 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: It's
It's often like that.
often like that. So that's
so that's very
very
7||7 helpful,
helpful, Mr.
Mr. President,
President, thank you.
thank you. In thinking
In thinking about
about the
the
8||
8 first
first tranche
tranche of
of stuff that you
stuff that you mentioned
mentioned aa second
second ago.
ago. And
And
9|9 the
the second
second tranche
tranche of sturt --
of stuff
10
10 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm assuming
BIDEN: I'm assuming there
there were
were two.
two.
1
11 MR. HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay.
12
12 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: That's my assumption.
That's my assumption. II just
just --—-
13
13 I don't
don't know
know when the first time
the first time --
--
1
14 MR. HOR: Is?
MR. HUR: Ts?
15
15 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN:
BIDEN: -- II walked
walked into
into the
the garage
garage and
and
16
16 all
all of of aa sudden there were
sudden there vere all these boxes
all these boxes all
all over
over the
the
17
17 floor.
floor. II don't remember ifif that
don't remember that was
was way
way back
back when
when II left
left
18
18 the
the Vice
Vice Presidency.
Presidency.
19
19 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes.
Yes.
20
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Or
PRESIDENT BIDEN: OF whether
whether itit was was just
just before
before --—-
21|
21 in
in this
this timeframe.
tirnefrarne.
22
22 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay.
23
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II just
PRESIDENT BIDEN: just don't
don't remember.
remember.
2
24 MR. HOR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay.
25
PRESIDENT BIDEN: And II don't
don't remember
remember how
how the
the --——
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D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 ro:a9:53.01
[0:49:53.4]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: ---- hell there.
got there.
hell itit got
33 MR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. So here's aa different
So here's question
different question
4|4 that
that doesn't
doesn't focus
focus on timing or
on timing or how
how things
things gotgot there.
there.
5||
5 Sometimes,
sometimes, in in mymy ownown experience
experience around
around the
the house,
house, youyou know,
know,
6|6 II get
get aa particular
particular —-
-- aa place
place gets
gets messy
messy and
and then
then II clean
clean itit
77| up
up and
and it it looks
looks spicspic andand span,
span, and
and then
then itit gets
gets messy
messy again.
again.
8||
8 so
So isis that
that wnatwhat happened
happened here,here, where
where thethe first
first tranche
tranche came,
came,
99 [| stu
stuff got got dumped
dumped in in your garage and
your garage and you
you organized
organized it,it, you you
10||
10 moved
moved it it all, unpacked the
all, unpacked the boxes
boxes and
and itit was
was spic
spic and
and span,
span,
11||
11 and
and then
then thisthis stuff landed. or
stuff landed. Or was
was itit not
not quite
quite that
that stark.
stark.
12
12 || Was
Was it it more
more likelike well,
well, II diddid some
some unpacking
unpacking ofof the
the first
first
13||
13 Baten.
batch. It
It wasn't
wasn't all all the
the way
way —-
14
14 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: II don't
don't remember
remember unpacking
unpacking
15||
15 anything.
anything. The
The thing
thing II remember
remember moving
moving isis just
just ----
16
16 MR.
MR. HOUR:
HUR: Ah, moving.
Ah, moving.
1717 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: -- -- moving
moving thethe boxes.
boxes.
18
18 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay.
Okay.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: AndAnd byby the
the way
way there's
there's --—- inin
20||
20 there,
there, there's
there's two things. There's
two things. There's aa bookcase.
bookcase. An An old
old --—-
21||
21 nad
had nothing
nothing to to dodo with anything. AA bookcase
with anything. bookcase thatthat isis against
against
22||
22 one
one of of those
those —- -- if you look
if you look atat that
that picture,
picture, you'll
you'll seesce on
on
23||
23
the
the
CN usss to
24||
24 -- there's
there' s aa JESSEN going up.
l'ft-1--P
going up.
25
25 MR. HOR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes.
CourtD.C.Reporting.Feanscription
Area 301-261-1902
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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—__—_— DRAFT 63
11 to:s1:08.00
[0:51:08.8]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN:BIDEN: And think you
And II think could see
you could see itit
looks like
3||3 looks there is
like there is aa -- leaning against
something leaning
-- something that
against that
|4 EEE
l'ltl"I-
55 MR. HUR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes.
66 PRESIDENT
PRES~DENTBIDEN: BIDEN: II think
think that
that isis aa bookcase,
bookcase,
77| unrelated
unrelated to anything
to having toto do
anything having do with
with thethe Vice
Vice Presidency,
Presidency,
8||
8 where
where somesome of the books
of the books that
that were
were sitting
sitting around,
around, booksbooks came
came
9||
9 back
back in in boxes.
boxes. You just
You just took
took them
them out
out andand stuck
stuck them
them there
there
10||
10 to
to get
get ridrid of the box.
of the box. You You follow
follow me?me? DoesDoes that
that make
make any
any
11||
11 sense?
sense?
12
12 MR. HOR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes.
13
13 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: Yes, Yos, sir.
sir.
1
14 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: And And soso things
things likelike that.
that. II
15||
15 don't,
don't, II don't
don't know know what
what ---- and
and inin the
the meantime
meantime --—- II can't
can't
16||
16 remember
remember when when II had those cabinets
had these cabinets putput in,in, onon both
both sides
sides ofof
17||
17 the
the garage,
garage, tne the gray cabinets.
gray cabinets.
18
18 MR. HUR: Yes,
MR. HUR: Yes, sir.
sir.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: They're
They're for for storage
storage and and they
they hadhad
20||
20 storage
storage of of things
things for paint and
for paint and tools
tools andand golf
golf clubs
clubs and
and
21
21 things
things likelike that.
that. And aa lot
And lot of
of onon the
tho [ESSNEside
usss side --—-
22||
22 EEESSEEside
usss side of the garage,
of the garage, there
there waswas aa lotlot ofof my
my wife's
wife's
23||
23 crockery
crockery and and vases
vases andand crystal
crystal pitchers,
pitchers, you you know,
know, forfor
24||
24 drinks,
drinks, drink
drink kindkind ofof thing.
thing. And And we
we ---- II needed
needed themthem toto
25||
25 store,
store, you
you know,
know, to get out
to get of the
out of the way
way so so they
they didn't
didn't getget —
INC.
Court Reporting
Transcription
D.C. Area
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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1 [0:52:31.1)
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- broken. There was no other
3 place to put them. And that was stuff coming from
4 Chain Bridge Road and/or, originally, I guess, from the Vice
55 President's
residence, Chain Bridge,
Chain Bridge, you
you know,
know, those
those kinds
kinds
66 of
of things.
things.
77 And
And then
then there
there on the other
on the other side,
side, there's aa little
there's little
8 workbench on the other between -- that last, on the right
9 -- what you're looking at here, because you can see one,
10 two, three cabinet doors up and down. And then there's an
11 opening and there's a workbench there with a -- I think
12 there's a vice there, and a, you know, and stuff just piled
13 up there.
And, so, you know, and, and it may be -- I don't
15 know this -- I don't want to speculate. Anyway. But it
16 wasn't like the boxes were empty and taken away. It was
17 like --
18 MR. HUR: They were moved.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: They were moved to make room for
20 the Corvette. And initially what I had in there, I had the
21 Corvette -- because in one picture, you have it on this side
22 of the garage.
23
23 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: Yes.
Yes.
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And on the other side was a
25 tractor, a small tractor that could operate as a --

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2 PRESIDENT BIOEN: -- tractor and/or as a lawn
3 mower. And it had a wagon, you know, a wagon you could hook
4 up to it. What I ended up doing is buying from one of these
5 garage places, you know, you go -- that could buy -- pass
6 gas stations that are selling wood sheds and, you know,
77 things like
things that.
like that. II bought
bought aa storage
storage facility
facility where
where II can
can
8 drive a tractor in there and store it, and a lot of garden
9 stuff and including -- I had in there -- what else did I put
10 in there? Tools, shovels, all that kind of stuff. Oh, and
11 the hard top for my Corvette is in there. And there's two
12 doors that close. And it's really more storage. So that's
13|| why
13 why we
we ended
ended up —- because
up -- because we
we needed
needed the
the space
space on the IV§-1--W
on the
14 |EEERYor
14 1&1-10f the garage.
the garage.
15 MR. HUR: And that, that you were just talking
16 about, moving things around, the big stuff for the space for
17 || the
17 the Corvette
Corvette onEE
on usss the garage,
of the garage, was
was that
that before
before or
or
18 after your move out of Chain Bridge Road?
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't know, I can't remember.
20 I'm trying to think. If I can remember when the first
21 tranche of boxes got sent to me. I have no -- no, I can't.
22 Maybe I should have asked some of the former staff when the
23 hell that stuff came up and how it came up. I don't know.
24 But I honest to God don't remember.
25 MR. HUR: Okay.
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22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: It may
may have
have been
been -- and
and by
by the
the
+) warco comticateshings. 1ashe meanine,mycomettevas

EIDEN: It
«|stnwortesonsacasss © nat20do sha sh wish =

3 way, to complicate things. In the meantime, my Corvette was
. te. scan say tone

4 being worked on because I had to do that show with --
. aston Bom. aytenes haveto,2

5 MR. KRICKBAUM: Jay Leno.
{| vance codotatshow wish uy zon

6 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Jay Leno. Didn't have to, I
of men
7 wanted to do that show with Jay Leno.
, exssionnaioe: andthe vasa idwheseed50

8 (Laughter)
10) eteneSatecare of myCorvette. id'swor foxme, hut

9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And there was a kid who used to
{| ant = ca gethismann. 50d 5 tie1 trsn out.

10 help me take care of my Corvette. Didn't work for me, but
11
22 o.youtmow, workonshecambuzeto,you kno,shasener,

-- and -- I can get his name. And he pulled it in and out
13] so 11vptotheConver dmnser (hnstscarmisne 0128108.11,

12 to, you know, work on the carburetor, you know, whatever,
1] whatever. sotherevas = 108 of statesoinsinand ut,but

13 get it up to the Chevrolet dealer (indiscernible 0:56:06.1),
14 whatever. So there was a lot of stuff going in and out, but
15] dont.semanaswhen sheboxes cans xshoretheycane

15 I don't remember when the boxes came or where they came
I
16 from.
2 i scons 50you senesbesshesher 55was

18] hen heCorvette wes comingwackaesche mycanesnr
17 MR. KRICKBAUM: Do you remember whether it was
5 20,1 tterworden, 45sume ou.for Sug enssvenestiy£5

18 when the Corvette was coming back after the Jay Leno show?
19 So, in other words, it goes out for Jay Leno, eventually it
20]come par.
20 comes back.
a
21 exsssoms zo on ne,itwae, 45was inand
PRESIDENT EIDEN: Oh, no, it was, it was in and
22] aut fox +bunchofseasons.

22 out for a bunch of reasons.
x
23 i. azcsason. oka.
us
24 maszonn Brom:Secsuee it drove ne crys 3
2 cance coarive52.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Because it drove me crazy; I
25 wanted to drive it.'
nl
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11 [0:56:32.4]
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2 MR. KRICKBAUM: Got it. That makes sense; a
3 beautiful car.
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And the worst part was, they
5 said I couldn't drive it outside the driveway. It's a long
6 driveway. So I'd get it to the bottom of the driveway, tack
77 it
it up
up to
to about
about four
four grand (indiscernible 0:56:44.0)
grand (indiscernible 0:56:44.0) (makes
(makes
88 car
car sound)
sound) (indiscernible
(indiscernible 0:56:47.0).
0:56:47.0).
9 (Laughter)
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You think I'm kidding; I'm not.
11 MR. KRICKBAUM: We believe you.
12 MR. HUR: I believe you. Yes.
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Probably one of the best parts
14 to being Vice President and President, I get to drive all
15 these, you know, electric vehicles. I have. Damn, they're
16 quick.
17 (Laughter)
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You know, think about this. You
19 had one of those big 4 x 4s, the -- I think it's a Ford
20 Bronco, whatever it is. Zero to sixty in 4 6.
21 MR. HUR: Yes.
22 MR. KRICKBAUM: Instant torque.
23 MR. HUR: That's fast.
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. By the way, you know how
——
25 it works?
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2 (Laughter)
3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It's really cool.
4 MR. HUR: Sir, I'd love -- I would love, love to
5 hear much more about this, but I do have a few more
66 questions
questions to
to get through.
get through.
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: You can
You can take
take 30
30 seconds,
seconds, but
but you
you
8 put your foot on the brake, you hit, you hit a button that's
9 in the -- and it says "launch."
10 (Laughter)
11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: You step your foot on the
12 accelerator all the way down
13 MR. HUR: Woah.
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- until it gets to about 6, 7
15 grand. Then all of a sudden, it will say "launch." All you
16 do is take your foot off the brake. (Makes car sound)
17 (Laughter)
18 MR. HOR: It's on my bucket list.
19 All right. so let's -- with that, let's launch
20
20 into
into the
the next
next subject
subject which relates
which relates to
to the
the Penn
Penn Biden
Biden
21 Center. So, I want to show you what's behind Tab 23.
22 MR. SAUBER: Which notebook?
23 MR. HUR: I'm sorry, Binder 1, the original binder.
24 So there's a number of photos there. The first
25 Bates is 20221201 WFO 0021. And then 22, and then 23.
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11 [0:58:30.3)
(0:58:30.3]
2 MR. HUR: And it jumps to 102, 103, 104 and 114.
3 MS. COTTON: I'm sorry, Rob, which tab?
4 MR. HUR: Tab 23.
5 MS. COTTON: Twenty-three.
6 MR. HUR: So the first several photos ending at
77 Bates
Bates 21,
21, 22
22 and
and 23, are one
23, are one box.
box. And then
And then the
the remainder
remainder
8 behind that tab are of another box.
9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: 21, 22 and 23 are one box?
12 MR. HUR: Okay. And then 102 onward are another
13
13 box.
box.
15 MR. HUR: So these were boxes that were recovered
16 from the Penn Eiden Center.
17 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Gotcha.
18 MR. HUR: And I'd like you just to take a quick look
19 at those photographs and tell me if you recognize these files,
20 if any of them jump out to you as ones that you recall.
21
21 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Are you
Are you on
on aa specific
specific page,
page, Rob,
Rob, just
just
22 to be clear?
23 MR. HUR: Not right now.
24 MR. BAUER: Okay.
25 MR. HUR: He can look through all six or seven --

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22 MR. HOR: ---- ofOf those

MR. HUR: those photos.
photos.
PRESIDENTBIDEN: The one
one on,
on, on
on 0103,
0103, cancer
cancer --
44 | 1've
I've done
done aa lot of work
lot of work onon cancer
cancer research.
research. This
This was
vas aa more
more
5||
5 current
current one,one, Leader Kevin McCarthy.
Leader Kevin McCarthy. ItIt must
must have
have been
been
6||
6 something
something II was, was, TI guess,
guess, itit had
had toto do
do with
with the
the deal
deal toto
7||
7 prevent
prevent the the government shutdown. Not
government shutdown. Not the
the shutdown,
shutdown, reneging
reneging
8||
8 on
on the
the debt,
debt, the national debt,
the national debt, the
the deal
deal we
we made.
made. p•J•fp
NEESME --—-
9||
9 it
it probably
probably had had toto do
do with
with her,
her, stuff
stuff she's
she's doing
doing for
for abused
abused
10||
10 women.
women. Genealogy
Genealogy -- -- II got
got aa lot
lot of
of genealogy
genealogy stuff
stuff all
all
11||
11 around.
around. Private Biden, 66 (indiscernible
Private Biden, (indiscernible 1:00:13.6)
1:00:13.6) 16 16 and
and
12||
12 15,
15, 1I don't
don't know what that
know what that is.
is.
13
13 — JES? 1 think it's JES
14||
14 (tndiscernible
1:00:23.3) could have
could have been
been aa guy
guy that
that worked
worked
15||
15 for
for meme for
for many
many ---- when
when II was
was senator.
senator. II may may have
have toto call
call
16||
16 him
him toto ask
ask hin for some
him for some information
information and and recollection.
recollection. II
17||
17 really
really can't
can't read
read some
some of of the
the others.
others. can Can you
you read
read itit for
for
18||
18 me
me (indiscernible
(indiscernible 1:00:43.9)2
1:00:43.9)?
19
19 MR.
MR. HUR: Well, II think,
HUR: Well, think, for
for the
the second
second box,
box, thethe
20||
20 very
very last
last photograph
photograph in in the
the tabtab section,
section, isis probably
probably the the
21|
21 sharpest
sharpest --
-- closest
closest in.
in.
22
22 MR. BAUER: Could
MR. BAITER: Could youyou give
give meme the
the number?
number?
2323 MR. HOR: I'm
MR. HOR: I'm sorry.
sorry. Bates 114.
Bates 114.
2
24 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Got Got it.it.
25
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: 114.
PRESIDENTBIDEN: 114.
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22 MR. HUR: II think

MR. HUR: think that's clearest focus
the clearest
that's the the
focus ofof the
33 ---- and
and the
the closest
closest in of
in. those photographs.
of those photographs.
’4 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: MayMay II ask,
ask, Rob,
Rob, again,
again, forfor the
the clarity
clarity
s5| of
of record.
record.
66 MR. HUR: Yes.

MR. HUR: Yes.
77 MR. BAUER: IsIs the

MR. BAUER: the question
question whether
whether he he recognizes
recognizes
08 the
the topics,
topics, or whether he
or whether he recognizes
recognizes these
these specific
specific )
9||
9 documents?
documents?
1010 MR. HUR: These

MR. HUR: specific documents.
These specific documents.
un11 MR. BAUER: Not
MR. BAUER: Not so
so much
much the
the topics,
topics, butbut the
the
12||
12 documents.
documents.
113 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: II don't
don't remember
remember --—-
u14 MR. HOR: Or,
MR. HUR: rather, I'm
Or, rather, I'm sorry,
sorry, these
these specific
specific
15||
15 sites.
files.
1616 MR. BAUER: Oh,

MR. BAUER: Oh, these
these specific
specific files,
files, okay.
okay.
ts
17 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Yes. From the
Yes. From the labels
labels onon the
the file
file
10|
18 solders.
folders.
119 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well,

PRESIDENT BIDEN: Well, II remember
remember ---- you
you know,
know, IT
20||
20 —-
-- the Papal visit
the Papal visit in 2015. II remember
in 2015. remember the
the ---- Senator
Senator
21||
21 Warren's
Warren's stuff stuff on Black Lives
on Black Lives Matter.
Matter. II was
was probably
probably
22||
22 categorizing
categorizing that.
that. Ve speech
VP spasch onon manufacturing,
manufacturing,
23||
23 manufacturers
manufacturers on 6/10. INSSNESHEEEEN (phonetic),
on 6/10. (chonetic). that
that
2424 || (indiscernible
(indiscernible 1:02:06.3) two
1:02:06.3} two staff
staff (indiscernible
(indiscernible
25||
25 1:02:07.2)
1:02:07.2) to
to work
work for
. me. -SSH —-
for me.
ConstReporting Feanscripeion
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11 :02:00.11
[1:02:09.1]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: ---- - had another
had one.
another one.
33 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: So So jumping
jumping off off ofof the
the question
question —-
a4 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: (Indiscernible
1:02:13.9).
55 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: -—- -- that
that BobBob justjust asked,
asked, which
which isis ---- letlet
6||
6 me
me ask
ask aa sligntly
slightly aifferent
different question, which
question, which isis given,
given, given
given
77| it
it sounds
sounds Like like you're
you're familiar with
familiar with the
the topics
topics that
that were
vere
8||
8 addressed
addressed in
in some
some of these file
of these file folder
folder labels,
labels, do do you
you recall
recall
9||
9 these
these as as being
being filesfiles that [ESSUNE kept
that kept for
for you
you atat the
the
10||
10 Penn
Penn Biden
Biden center?Center?
1
11 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II don't don't recall
recall whether
whether they
they
12||
12 were.
were. But
But they're
they're all stuff that
all stuff that I'veI've worked
worked ---- II worked
worked aa
13||
13 hell
hell ofof aa lot lot on on law enforcement, II worked
law enforcement, worked on on marriage
marriage
11
14 || equality.
equality. I'm
I'm the
the guy guy thatthat got got that
that changed.
changed. II worked
worked onon
15||
15 Papal
Papal visits.
visits. II can't
can't read that
read that one.
one. Oh, Oh, and
and something
something
16||
16 about
about restoring
restoring the
the middle
middle class.class. These are
These are all
all subjects
subjects
17||
17 that
that related
related to --—- most
to most of them ---- the
of them the moonshot
moonshot withwith 1111
16||
18 MEM.
-· The
The MoonMoon ShotShot was was cancer,
cancer, and NEESHEN was
and vas one
one ofof my my
19||
19 docs
docs whowho operated
operated on
on me me --—-
20
20 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Yes, Yes, sir.sir.
21
21 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: -- atat Walter Walter Reed.
Reed.
2
22 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Do Do you recall asking
you recall asking ••f•lf
JGEM toto pull
pull anyany
23||
23 of
of these
these filesfiles for you
for you whenwhen you you were
were ---- when
when you
you and
and ••J•W
24||
24 vere
were at at thethe Penn Penn Biden Center?
Biden Center?
25
25 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: No, No, II ---- well
well -- what
what dates
dates --—-
FREEReporting
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[1:03:31.6]
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: ---- was

PRESIDENT BIDEN: don't
there? II don't
was II there?
33 remember.
remember. The
The Penn Biden Center.
Penn Biden Center. )
44 MR. SISKEL:
MR. SISKEL: After your vice
After your presidency.
vice presidency.
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
BIDEN: II know,
know, what
what are
are the
the dates?
dates?
66 MR.
MR. BAUER: Precise dates.
BAUER: Precise dates.
77 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Anyway,
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Anyway, some
some of
of itit II may
may have
have
8||
8 had
had hor
her purl
pull - from -- because
from because II was
vas working
working onon
9||
9 cancer
cancer initiatives
initiatives on my own.
on my own. II mean,
mean, not
not for
for Penn,
Pemn, but
but --
1010 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Yes.Yes.
111 PRESIDENT BIDEN: But
PRESIDENT BIDEN: But II did
did work
work with
with Penn,
Penn,
1212|| because
because theythey had
had aa helluva
helluva cancer
cancer center
center there.
there. You You know,
know,
13||
13 Mcconnell,
McConnell, 7-13-15,
7-13-15, II don't
don't know what's
know what's going
going onon there.
there. But But
14|
14 I'm
I'm --
-- itit may
may very well ---- ifif they've
very well they've been
been atat the
the Penn
Penn --—-
15||
15 these
these look
look like
like stuff
stuff that that
that that maymay have
have been
been inin -
16
16 file
file drawers
drawers or
or -- II don't
don't know.
know. (Indiscernible 1:04:22.1)
17||
17 But
But not
not squirreled
squirreled away.
away. II mean,
mean, they
they look
look like
like they
they could
could
18
18 be
be current
current things
things II would be working
would be working on
on or
or around.
around. But II
But
19||
19 don't
don't know.
know.
2020 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. And when
And when youyou saysay "current,"
“current,”
2121 you
you --
--
22
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: II mean
PRESIDENT BIDEN: mean contemporaneous.
contemporaneous.
2323 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: AtAt thethe Penn
Penn Biden
Biden Center?
Center?
224 PRESIDENT BIDEN: At
PRESIDENT BIDEN: At the
the Penn
Penn Biden
Biden Center.
Center.
2525 MR.
MR. HOR: Okay. All
HUR: Okay. ALL right.
right.
FREE
FREE
court STATE
STATE
Reporting
REPORTING,
REPORTING,
CourtD.C.Reporting INC,
INC.
Transcription
Transcription
D.C. Area
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11 r1:04:39.21
[1:04:39.2]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: But But II don't
don't knowknow that
that for
for aa
3||3 fact.
fact.
a4 MR.
HUR: Understood.
55 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: So just toto be
So just be clear,
clear, Rob.
Rob. I'm I'm really
really
6|6 sorry.
sorry. I'm
I'm trying
trying to to be be good.
good. II just
just want
want toto make
make sure
sure II
7|7 understand.
understand. The
The question
question that that you're
you're a5king
asking ---- II want
want you
you
68 to to ask
ask the the question,
question, because you
because you don't
don't want
want me
me toto ask
ask the
the
o||9 question.
question. 1s
Is it,
it, again,
again, the the ---- recalling
recalling these
these specific
specific
10||10 files,
files, or
or isis the
the question recalling working
question recalling working on on topics
topics like
like
111| tnise
this?
1212 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: The The question
question was was --—- and
and II believe
believe thethe
13||
13 President
President answered
answered it it quite clearly -- given
quite clearly given his
his familiarity
familiarity
14||
14 with
with the the topics
topics thatthat are referenced on
are referenced on these
these file
file folder
folder
15||
15 labels,
labels, does
does he he recall
recall whether these
whether these folders
folders were
were ones
ones that
that
16|
16 he
he had
had JESSUNEE keep. keep, and and that
that hehe referenced
referenced atat the the Penn
Penn
1717|| Biden
Biden Center
Center afterafter thethe end end ofof his
his vice
vice presidency?
presidency?
1818 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN:BIDEN: The The subject
subject matter,
matter, yes,
ves, like
like
19||cancer,JESSIE.
19 cancer,_, Violence
Violence AgainstAgainst Women,
Women, the the genealogy.
genealogy. II
20||
20 mean,
mean, therethere are are things
things that were things
that were things thatthat continued.
continued. And And
21||
21 II still
still communicate
communicate with with the the Pope,
Pope, youyou know
know what
what II mean.
mean.
22||
22 But
But is is it it constant?
constant? No. Anyway.
No. Anyway.
23
23 MR.
MR. HUR: Okay.
HUR: Okay.
224 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: He's He's my my ticket.
ticket.
25||
25 (Laughter)
(Laughter) y
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[1:05:52.1]
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN:BIDEN: That That was
was aa joke.
joke.
33 (zaughter)
(Laughter)
44 MR.
MR. KRICKERUM:
KRICKBAUM: II was was thinking
thinking you you both
both have
have --—-
55 MR.
MR. HUR: That's why
HUR: That's why wewe laughed.
laughed.
66 MR. KRICKBAUM: --~-- you
MR. KRICKBAUM: you have
have full full day
day jobs,
jobs, soso it'sit's
77| propably
probably not
not regular,
regular, regular communication.
regular communication.
88 MR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. So So keeping
keeping inin mind mind thethe second
second box box
5||
9 that's
that's shown
shown in the photos
in the photos towards the
towards the back
back half
half ofof this
this tab tab
10||
10 section,
section, from
from 102 onward. So
102 onward. So within
within that that box
box atat the
the Penn
Penn
11||
11 Biden
Eiden Center
Center was recovered
was recovered —-
1212 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT EIDEN: BIDEN: (Indiscernible
1:06:24.5) the the
13||
13 last
last things
things II have
have on on that
that tab.tab.
114 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Oh, which,
Oh, which, which
which picture
picture dodo youyou want
want
15|[
15 him
him to to bebe looking
looking at?
at?
1616 MR. HOR: We

MR. HUR: We were
were just
just looking
looking atat 114. 114.
717 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Do you
Do you want
want himhim still
still onon that?
that?
1818 MR. HUR: We're
MR. HUR: We're about
about toto move
move on. on.
1519 MR. BAUER: To
MR. BAUER: To 102.
102.
20
20 MR. HUR: But
MR. HUR: But II just
just want
want him him toto have
have that
that inin his
his
21||
21 mind.
mind.
22
22 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: All ALL right.
right.
2
23 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: So So we're
we're about toto move
about move onon toto Tab
Tab 24.
24.
2
24 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Oh. Oh. Okay.
Okay.
25
25 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: The The first
first document
document atat Tab Tab 24,
24, it's
it's --—-
FREE Reporting
Court
FREE
Court
STATE
Reporting REPORTING, INC,
Transeription
Transcription
5.C. Area
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
301-261-1305
|
OLHICHUR000285
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000266
EE DRAFT 7
76
11 [1:06:54.1]
[1:06:54.1]
2 MR. HUR: -- got Bates ending WFO_0006. And I
3||
3 will
will represent
represent to you
to you that
that this
this envelope
envelope that
that has
has on
on itit
44 “Eyes
"Eyes Only"
Only" at
at the top and
the top and the
the bottom,
bottom, and
and "VPOTUS"
"VPOTUS" in
in the
the
5 middle was recovered within the box that's shown in 114,
6 which was the prior tab. Yes.
8 MR. HUR: Okay? So -- now flipping back --
9 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Someone went and pulled that out
10 of 114?
11 MR. HUR: Yes.
13 MR. HUR: That's where it was found.
14 PRESIDENT BIDEN: But I didn't -- but it wasn't
15 out like this?
16 MR. HUR: No, sir.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Somebody pulled it out?
18 MR. HUR: Correct.
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay, good.
Okay, good. II just
just wondered
wondered
20 what you're saying, that's all.
21 MR. HUR: Correct. Correct.
23 MR. HOR: So, now, we understand that the -- well,
24 let me ask you some questions first about the envelope
25 that's on 0006.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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77
1 [1:07:46.1)
33 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: So, in addition
So, in the "Eyes
to the
addition to print
Only" print
"Eyes Only"
4 at the top and the bottom, and then "VPOTUS" in the middle
5 in black, there's some writing there that says, Iran 1/30,
6 and then some other numbers after that. Do you recognize
77 the
the handwriting?
handwriting?
8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No. I mean, it could be mine,
9 but I don't know.
10 MR. HUR: Okay. So now I want to jump over to
11
11 Binder
Binder 3,
3, so
so aa whole
whole separate
separate binder.
binder. And towards
And towards ----
12 PRESIDENT EIDEN: (Indiscernible 1:08:22.1). Get
13 out of my stuff.
14 (Laughter)
15 (Asides)
16 MR. KRICKBAUM: And we're done with two, Rachel,
17 so --
18 MS. COTTON: Okay, great.
19
19. MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM:
KRICKBAUM: -- to
to get
get itit out
out of
of the
the way.
way.
20 PRESIDENT EIDEN: All right.
21 MR. HUR: Okay? So behind the first blue tab,
22||
22 which
which is
is labeled
labeled "Eyes Only" folder,
"Eyes Only" folder, the
the first
first thing
thing you
you
23 should see is a document that's Bates labeled
24 2022120l_WFO_0006, which is what we were just looking at,
25 the outside of the envelope.

CourtReporting.Transeription
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DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000268
11 [1:08:56.3]
[1:08:56.3]
— DRAFT 78
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Oh, that.
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah, I got that.
5 MR. HUR: But now we're at Binder 3.
77 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: And so II want
And so want to
to take
take you
you to
to some
some of
of the
the
8 contents of this document.
99 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Of the
Of the document
document itself?·
itself?
10 MR. HUR: I'm sorry, sir, the contents of the
11 envelope.
13 MR. HUR: So let's go first to Tab A7. And you'll
14
14 see
see there
there a number of pages.
number of pages. The first
The first Bates
Bates label
label isis
15 1B49A70001 followed by 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 through 10. What
16 you're seeing there are a number of lined pages -- mostly,
17 some of them aren't -- but with handwriting on them. If
18 you'll just take a moment to look through those pages. Once
19 you're done, I'll ask you if you -- if this is your
20 handwriting on these pages?
21 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It looks like my handwriting.
22 MR. HUR: Okay. We'll come back to these in a
23 moment, but I want to have you take a look at the other
24 contents of this envelope.
25 MR. SISKEL: Rob, just -- can you -- because --
Court
Court Seporting. Feansceiption
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| me ere +attn
11 [1:10:41.7)
[1:10:41.7]
es cre
2 MR. SISKEL: -- there's a bunch of different
| Ra
3 pages, can you ask about specific pages?
4 MR. HUR: Sure.
|
55 MR. SISKEL:
MR. SISKEL: Just because
Just because II want
want to
to make
make sure
sure it's
it's
HS
6 clear.
7 MR. HUR: Sure. Fair point. Okay. Let's start
OE .
88 with
with 11.
[—
9 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Page 1 of -- that we were just
i am so teso
10 looking at?
Sl
11 MR. HUR: Yes, sir, behind Tab A7.
HI esvei
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yup. Okay.
le
13 MR. HUR: So it looks like the first handwritten
nl
14 words at the top are, hold sanctions regain. Does this page
TT
15 have your handwriting on it?
lm | te en int10
17 MR. HUR: How about the next page, which is, I get
alm
18 portrait and landscape mixed up. I think this is landscape.
eT ea es ts ay a iin
19 Horizontal.
Se —"
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: This may not be my handwriting.
ale
21 MR. HUR: Okay. How about the next page, bearing
17 em en 2st em iin
22 3?
a me,
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It looks like my handwriting.
Al tsee
24 MR. HUR: How about 4?
ER
25 MR. BAUER:. Excuse me. The page before the one --
Court
Court Reporting Transeripion
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€
11 (1:11:41.0]
[l:11:41.0)
2 MR. BAUER: -- that is dated -- just to be
3 clear --
4 MR. HUR: One, in the caption of the --
5 MR. BAUER: Yeah. Number 0002 is that he said the
6 answer was not? I didn't hear that clearly.
7 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The answer is I'm not sure.
8 MR. HUR: I heard it clearly.
9 MR. BAUER: Yeah, correct. Okay. So now we're on
10 003?
11 MR. HUR: Three he said is his.
12 MR. BAUER: Okay.
13 MR. HUR: Now we're on 4, actually.
14 MR. BAUER: Okay.
15 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Breakfast is mine.
16
16 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay.
Okay. How about
How about 5,
5, dated
dated 1-28-15?
1-28-15?
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't know.
18 MR. HUR: Okay. How about 6?
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: It could be though. Sorry.
20 Same as 5.
21 MR. HUR: Six is the same as five?
22 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yeah. In other words, I think
23 it is, but I'm not sure.
24 MR. HUR: Okay.
25 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The same with 7.
const Reporting. TEamseciprion

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[1:12:45.3)
EE DRAFT 81
>2 Vi.
MR. WOR:
HUR: Okay. How about
Okay. How about 8?67
53 PRESIDENT BIDEN: They
PRESIDENTBIDEN: They allail look
Look thethe same
same toto me.
me.
44 MR. HUR: Nine
MR. HUR: Nine and
and ten
ten covered
covered by
by that
that too?
too?
s
5 PRESTORNE BIDEN: Let
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Lot me
me see
seo here.
hero. Yeah,
Yeah, --—-
66 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- it's
PRESIDENTBIDEN: it's possible.
possible.
77 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Okay. Ed, was
Okay. Ed, was that
that inin reference
reference toto 10?
10?
8. MR.
MR. SISEL:
SISKEL: fe vas looking
He was looking atat 009.
009.
95 We
MR. HOR: ine.
HUR: Nine.
1010 PRESTORNT
PRESIDENTBIDSN: It's possible
BIDEN: It's possible they're
they're inin my ny
11||
11 writing.
writing. 1m looking atat the
I'm looking the spelling.
spelling. IfIf it'sit's spelled
spelled
12||
12 right,
right, it's
it's probably not.
probably not.
15|| Gaugnton
13 (Laughter)
u14 PRESIORNT BIDSN: You

PRESIDENTEIDEN: You think
think I'm
T'm kidding,
Kidding, I'm
I'm not.
not.
' 15||
15 Anyway, okay.
Anyway, okay.
16
16 MR. HUR: Okay.
MR. HUR: Okay. ALL right.
All right. So now
So now I'd
I'd like
like toto
17||
17 direct
direct your
your attention
attention to some
to of the
some of the other
other documents
documents that
that
18 were in that envelope.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN; Okay.
20
20 MB.
MR. HOR: So let's
HUR; So let's start
start with
with tabtab A3.
AS.
21 PRESIDENTBIDEN: What? I'm sorry.
22
22 MR.
MR. HUR: Tab A3.
HUR: Tab A3. Still
Still in
in that
that same
same section,
section, that
that|
23||
23 first
first blue flap.
blue flap. So A3
So is Bates
A3 is Bates labeled
labeled ---- actually,
actually, mine
mine isis
24
24 not
not Bates
Bates labeled.
labeled. But
But it says at
it says at the
the top,
top, "in
"in response
response to
to aa
25 question State. NSC
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11 [1:14:32.7)
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2 2 we. HUR:
MR. wor ETE The State. NSC Te document
docunent
3 5|| behind
behind Tab
Tab A4a4 has
has language
language onon it.it. There's
There's nono sates,
Bates, but it'sit's
but
44| trans nuclear

Iran's nucicar negotiating
negotiating positions
pasitions asas ofof early
early January
amuazy 2015.
2015.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Where,
Where, where
where did
did you
you see
see that?
that?
6 6 WS. COTTON:
MS. Corton: Here.
Hore
7 , WR. HUR:
MR. HOR: It'sIt's behind
behind Tab
Tab A4.
Ad.
8 . VR. LAUFMAN:
MR. LAURWAN: Sorry,
Sorry, Rob,
Rob, which
which binder
binder are you inin
are you
9 o| again
again?
1010 WR. HUR:

MR. WOR: Binder
Binder 3.3
un
11 vB. LAUFMAN:
MR. LAUR: Okay. Okay.
2
12 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIOEN: On, okay. Gotcha,
Oh, okay. Gotcha, yeah,
yeah, I'mI'm
13 sorry.
M
14 WR. LAURA: Binder 3.3.
MR. LAUFMAN: Binder
1s15 WR. HUR:

MR. HOR: Okay.
Okay. And
And then
then behind
behind Tab
Tab A5,
AS, there's
there's
16 another document that was in that same envelope. No Bates,
17| but
17
but titled
titled 1zan:
"Iran: State, NSC
16
18
1
19 eRestomNT BoEN: Yup.
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Yup
2
20 WR. HUR:
MR. HOR: And
And then
then finally,
Finally, Tab
Tab A6,
AG, again,
again, nono
21 || Bates,
21 Bates, but
but it's
it's titled
titled “Iran:
"Iran: EEOC
State NSC
22| ———
22
2
23 PRESIDENT BIOEN: Okay.
2
24 WR. HUR:
MR. HOR: So,
So, IT don't
don’ want
want toto ask
ask you
you detailed
derailed
25|| questions
25 questions about
about thethe substance
substance ofof these
these documents,
documenta, but
but --
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 [1:15:35.4)
[1:15:35.4]
2 MR. HUR: -- having had the opportunity to take a
3 look at them, do you recall being provided these documents?
4 Because our understanding is that these were provided to you
5 during your vice presidency.
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The answer is, I don't recall
7||7 being
being provided
provided them, but itit doesn't
them, but doesn't surprise
surprise me
me II would
would be
be
8 provided them.
9 MR. HUR: I'm sorry, I didn't Qear the last --
10 PRESIDENT EIDEN: I do not recall specifically
11 being provided them. But it would not be unusual for me to
12 be provided them.
13 MR. HUR: Okay. All right. So, let's look at
14 some other documents that may refresh
15 PRESIDENT EIDEN: These are all in 2014?
16
16 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: They're dated
They're dated 2013
2013 --
-- this
this one's
one's dated
dated
17 2013, behind Tab A6.
18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The one behind AS is 2014?
19 MR. HUR: Is dated 2014, yes.
20 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay. Got it.
21 MR. HUR: So, let's look at some other documents.
22 We' re going to go back to Binder 1; that may refresh your
23 recollection on these. So, our understanding, sir, is that,
24 at this time, the Obama administration was addressing the
25 subject of a potential nuclear deal with Iran. There --
(mm peer,ne,
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(1:16:42.5)
22 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: -- -- were
were some members ofof Congress
some members Congress who who were
were
3||
3 considering
considering their
their own views about
own views about such~
such a deal
deal with
with Iran,
Iran, and
and
4||
4 whether
whether Congress
Congress should
should impose additional sanctions,
impose additional sanctions, whichwhich the
the
5||
5 Administratio
Administration n determined
determined would have
would have interfered
interfered with with thethe
6||
6 Administration's n's negotiations
Administratio negotiations about the
about the nuclear
nuclear deal.
deal.
77 So
So wewe understand
understand that you,
that you, sir,
sir, were
were enlisted
enlisted asas
8||
8 part
part of of the
the obama
Obama administratio
administration's n's effort
effort toto speak
speak with
with
9||
9 members
members of of congress
Congress about
about the the Iran
Iran deal,
deal, and
and toto encourage
encourage
10
10 || them
them notnot to impose, as
to impose, Congress, additional,
as Congress, additional, oror new new
11|
11 sanctions
sanctions on
on Tran.
Iran. So
So that's
that's our understanding
our understanding asas toto whatwhat
12||
12 was
was going
going on on atat the time.
the time.
1313 So,
So, letlet me show you
me show some photographs
you some photographs behind
behind TabTab
14
14 (| 24.
24. And
And these
these will
will be be aa series
series ofof photographs.
photographs. ItIt starts starts
15
15 || with
with the the second
second one behind that
one behind that -- second
second oneone inin that
that
16||
16 section.
section. The
The first
first Bates is
Bates 01223070 0_0001.
18001_0122307
is 1B001 0001.
117 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: Okay.
Okay.
1818 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: There's
There's some other
some other photos
photos here,
here, 1223174,
1223174,
15||
19 1223084.
1223084.
2020 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: You can
You can tell
tell it's
it's old.
old. II havehave
21||
21 my
my arm
arm around
around Lindsey
Lindsey Graham.
Graham.
22
22 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: 1225128.
1225128. So let's
So let's look
look --—-
2323 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Rob, just
Rob, just one
one thing
thing toto clarify
clarify for for
24||
24 the
the record,
record, just
just because
because this tab
this tab has
has the
the envelope,
envelope, aa
25||
25 picture
picture of
of the
the envelope.
envelope.
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11 {1:18:07.3)
[1:18:07.3]
2 MR. HUR: Yes.
3 MR. SISKEL: These photos were not in the envelope?
4 MR. HUR: They were not. They were not in the
5 envelope.
77 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Good clarification.
Good clarification.
8 So, if we look at the photos, they all end in 001,
9 but 3070 is the -- are the last four digits of the middle
10 set of digits. 3174, 3084. These are photographs of a
11 breakfast
13 MR. HUR: -- that you had with a group of senators
14 at the Naval Observatory.
16 MR. HUR: And if you flip a little bit further,
17 getting to what at the top says, private schedule for Vice
18 President Joe Biden. Bates 14766_0001.
19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Hang on a second. Is this it,
20 Private Schedule?
21 MR. HUR: Yes, sir. And if -- you'll see at the
22 bottom of the page, it says, 8 a.m. to 9:30 a.m., breakfast
23 with senators.
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Gotcha.
25 MR. HUR: Location, Naval Observatory, and then --

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11 (1:19:12.1)
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2 MR. HUR: -- it lists a number of members of
3 Congress.
55 MR. HUR:
MR. HUR: So, what
So, what do
do you
you recall
recall about
about that
that
6 breakfast with the senators?
7 PRESIDENT EIDEN: Nothing.
8 (Laughter)
99 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT EIDEN: No, I'm
No, I'm not
not being
being facetious.
facetious. II
10 don't recall any --
11 MR. HUR: Okay.
12 PRESIDENT EIDEN: I would often have breakfasts like
13 this on a whole range of issues. I'd bring senators down.
14 The bad joke is, with President Obama, I would
15 always say to him, Mr. President, all politics is personal.
16 For example, even my staff wondered why the hell I'm calling
17 Cory Booker to make sure he's safe. Why are you calling
18 him? Because (indiscernible 1:19:56.4) because I called
19 when they were in, in -- Jesus -- in Israel. I called him
20 when they got home because I wanted him to know I cared
21 about him. It matters. So what I would do lots of times is
22 bring senators to the house to discuss whether they were
23 with me on a proposal, even though I knew what I wanted to
24 do, and say, what do you think? What kind of input --
25 because to get them bought into, whatever.

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1 [1:20:23.9]
2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: And it may be -- I don't remember
3 the purpose of the meeting, but lots of times that I meet and
4 say, well, what do you guys think, you know, rather than just
5||
5 selling
selling something.
something. And
And say, why do
say, why do you
you think
think that
that would
would work,
work,
6 et cete·ra. So I don't know what the topic was.
8 PRESIDENT EIDEN: And -- but it's not unusual to
9 have those meetings.
10 MR. HUR: Understood. Okay.
11
11 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: II just
just wanted
wanted to
to mention,
mention, II think
think
12 we're at 5 hours.
13 MR. HUR: Is that right?
14 MR. BAUER: It's 2 -- in fact, we're at 5 hours and
15 1 minute. Not that I -- not that we're keeping time on this.
16 MR. HUR: If you wouldn't mind, if you could
17||
17 indulge
indulge us
us to just finish
to just finish this
this line of
line of questioning.
questioning.
18 MR. BAUER: How much more time do you think you
19 would need?
20 MR. HUR: I really don't think I'll need more than
21 10 or 15 minutes on this.
22 MR. BAUER: I couldn't hear.
23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: 10 or 15 minutes.
25 MR. HUR: And I'll do my best to make it closer --

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11 [1:21:14.5]
[1:21:14.5]
2 MR. HUR: to 10.
3 MR. SAUBER: This line is what, Rob --
4 MR. HUR: About these particular documents that
5 were found at Penn Biden Center.
6 MR. SAUBER: Oh. Well
77 MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: II mean,
mean, are
are you
you talking
talking about
about the
the
88 ones
ones in
in that
that envelope?
envelope?
9 MR. HUR: Yes.
10 MR. SISKEL: And that's it?
11 MR. HUR: If that's, if that's the end of stoppage
12 time --
»13 ¥e
MR. SLATE
SISKEL: able we're
Well, ates already
Shes atOE ourSE stoppage
SERPS
14 time.
15 MR. BAUER: We do have a stoppage time, and we're
16 at it. Ed, you want to shut it off for a minute?
17
17 | MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Sure.
Sure.
18 MR. BAUER: Mr. President, just take 2 seconds.
19 MS. COTTON: No, I subtracted breaks.
20 MR. KRICKBAUM: Can I say one word to you guys?
21 MR. BAUER: Of course. Why don't we step out in
22 the hall?
23 MR. KRICKBAUM: Sure. It'll be, It'll be very
at] aie.
24 quick.
25 MR. BAUER: We'll be very quick, Mr. President --
TEE
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I
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5 MR. HUR: We're back from a brief break. If we
6 could -- I have a few questions again about these
oir —seaseacm
7||
7 photographs
photographs here.
here. There's
There's one with you
one with you with
with your
your arm
arm around
around
8 Lindsey -- Senator Lindsey Graham.
99 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: They're the
They're the old
old days.
days.
. TU
10
10 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
12 ere, 11.30 cor tonstn cen

11 MR. HUR: Just for Bates number -- Bates number
rol merongogr ates ot eae teeset

12 purposes, 3174. So there, you're holding a clutch of
rl eat 220s tagrimsrratetswns

13 documents in your left hand that appears to include a manila
#1 creaha stessoSeve we 2m Sees

14 envelope. And then the prior page that shows you seated
0
15 around the breakfast table, Bates 3070, has some documents
" arensn.
16 next to you, on the floor next to your chair.
. me so resse oe
2] ome 2sarin erance ten ovr230

18 MR. HUR: So I'm pretty sure I know what the
es gnos eitot
19 answer to this is going to be, but the manila envelope that
20 we saw a moment ago in another photograph that said "VP Eyes
22 moe caren,2 ynsee et ees osoesms

21
21 Only"
Only" at
at the
the top
top and
and bottom,
bottom, that was
that was recovered
recovered from
from Penn
Penn
of rm vo se re.sens
22 Biden Center, did you have that envelope, and the documents
etm si = oe
23 in it, with you during that breakfast?
. ro re poe atonegone pe
24 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I have no idea.
25 MR. HUR: Okay. So another question about the --
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22 MR.
MR. HUR: -- handwritten
HUR: -- handuritten documents
documents that
that wewe were
were
3||
3 1ooking
looking at
at aa moment ago, you
moment ago, you appeared
appeared toto recognize
recognize some
some
al4 of
of --
s5 PRESIDENT
66 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: ~~ your handwriting
-- your handwriting --
77 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN:BIDEN: Yeah.
Yeah.
88 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: -- -- on some ofof the
on some the pages.
pages.
59 PRESIDENT
1010 NR.
MR. HUR:HUR: WasWas the the purpose
purpose ofof those those notes
motes toto help
help
1111 {| prepare
prepare for
for your
your breakfast
breakfast meeting with
meeting with the the senators
senators about
about
12|
12 the
the Iran
Iran nuclear
nuclear deal?
deal?
1313 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II don't don't know,know, II didn't
didn't read
read thethe
1414 [| substance
substance of
of them,
them, butbut itit could
could havehave been been notes
notes after
after thethe
15||
15 meeting
meeting too.
too.
1616 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay.
Okay.
Rt)17 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: IfIf they'rethey're ---- ifif it'sit's my
my
16||
18 henduriting.
handwriting. But
But II don't
don't know.
know.
119 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: Okay.
Okay. So letlet me
So me ask ask you
you another
another
20||
20 question
question that
that may may refresh
refresh your recollection.
your recollection. SoSo II
21||21 apologize,
apologize, we're
we're goinggoing to to have
have to,to, again,
again, dodo some
some
22||
22 comparisons
comparisons between
between things inin Binder
things Binder 11 and and Binder
Binder 3.3.
223 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: WhichWhich one one areare you you going
going to?to?
2424 NR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Let's
Let's look atat the
look the photograph
photograph ofof youyou inin
25||
25 Binder
Binder 1. 1. It's
It's the
the ore
one thatthat hashas 5128
5128 in·the
in-the Bates.
Bates.
Court
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2
2 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: T's
It's got you
got you speaking
speaking with
with Mr.
Mr. McDonogh.
NoDonogh.
33 MS.
MS. COTTON:
COTTON: Sorry, we
Sorry, we lost
lost the
the tab.
tab. Which tab
Which tab
4of] vas
was see
it?
5s MR. WOR: I'm

MR. HUR: I'm sorzy,
sorry, Tab 24.
Tab 24. It'sIt's this
this one.
one.
6. PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's
PRESIDENT BIDEN: That's inin mymy office?
office?
77 MR.
MR. HOR: Yes, sir.
HUR: Yes, sir.
8. MR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Zo clarify
To clarify thethe record,
record, youryour office
office asas
o|9 vice
Vice presidente
President?
1010 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: As hs Vice
Vice President.
President.
u11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: AsRs Vice
PRESIDENT BIDEN: Vice President,
resident, yeah. yeah.
1212 WR.
MR. SISKEL:
SISKEL: Okay.
Okay.
113 MR.
MR. HOR: And so,50, I'd1'd like
HUR: And Like toto focus
foous you
you --= well,
well, I'dI'd
114 | Like
like to to focus
focus you
you onon the piece ofof paper
the piece paper that
that Mr.Mr. McDonogh
Nobonogh isis
15||
15 holding
holding inin his
his left
left hand, along
hand, slong withwith aa coffee
coffes cup.cup.
17 MR. HUR: And then, if you compare it with the
1518 | document.
document enacts
that's bentna
behind Tab A787 insn Binder
Tab sander 3.3.
19
19 | (Asides)
(Asides)
2
20 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Ts this --—
Is this
a21 MR.
MR. BAUER: Just one
BAUER: Just one second
second toto getget this
this stuff
stuff
22|| 1anea
22 lined up.
up.
223 TE A7.
PRESIDENT BIDEN:
224 MR.MR. HOR: Yas, sir.

HUR: Yes, sir. SoSo thethe second
second document
document inin ==
2
25 WR.
MR. SISKEL;
SISKEL: The second page?
The second page?
rar. rors arenEiv TG
poe ere
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22 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: .The .The second
second page,
page, y~s.
ves. AndAnd it's
it's got
got
3|3 Bates
Bates oooz.
0002.
44 MR. BAUER: Could

MR. BAUER: Could youyou bear
bear with
with usus one
one second,
second,
5||
5 because
because I'm
I'm trying
trying to follow
to follow itit too.
too.
66 MR.
MR. HUR:HOR: Yes. Yes.
77 RESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: Okay.OKay.
88 MR.
MR. HOR:HUR: So, ifif you
So, you take
take aa look
look atat the
the document
document
9||
9 there
there at at Bates
Bates 0002 0002 thatthat we we pulled
pulled fromfrom Binder
Binder 3,3, and
and you
you look
look
10||
10 real
real close
close at the
at the photograph
photograph ofof the the --=- that
that Mr.
Mr. McDonogh
McDonogh isis!
11||
11 holding
holding with
with you you in in your West Wing
your West Wing office,
office, that
that there
there appears
appears
12
12 | to
to bebe some
some resemblance
resemblance between those
between those documents.
documents.
1313 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: BIDEN: II don't don't think
think there's
there's any any
14||
14 resemblance.
resemblance. He has aa whole
He has whole section
section up up there
there inin the
the corner.
corner.
15||
15 He
He has
has one,
one, two,two, three
three across.
across. Take Take aa look
look atat that
that picture
picture
16||
16 he's
he's holding
holding in his hand.
in his hand.
1717 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: Okay. Okay.
1818 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENT BIDEN: There's no,
BIDEN: There's no, there's such --—-
there's nono such
19||
19 in
in other
other words,
words, it
it goes
goes allall the
the way
way toto the
the far
far right
right corner
corner
20||
20 of
of the
the document.
document. It
It maymay ---- II don't
don't know
know what
what relevance
relevance itit
21||
21 is,
is, but
but it it doesn't
doesn't look like
look like the
the same
same document
document toto me. me.
22
22 MR.
MR. HUR:HUR: And And how
how about
about with
with respect
respect toto thethe
23||
23 remainder?
remainder? But putting
But putting the stuff
the Stuff inin thethe far
far right
right upper
upper
24||
24 corner
corner to
to the
the side,
side, with respect
with respect toto thethe other
other parts
parts ofof that
that
25||
25 handwritten
handwritten page.
page. My only
My only question
question is,is, doesdoes this
this ----
oustD.C.
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22 WR. WOR: --== refresh

MR. HUR: refresh your
your recollection
recollection asas toto thethe
3||
3 purpose
purpose ofof these
these handwritten
handwritten notes relating
notes relating toto thethe Iran
Iran
44]| nuciear
nuclear dea,
deal, or your breakfast
or your breaktast meeting
meeting with
with thethe senators
senators
s5| the
the folioning
following aay?
day?
66 MR. BAUER:
MR. BAUER: Rob, just
Rob, just to
to be
be clear.
clear.
7, ERESIOENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: BIDEN: No. No.
8o WR. BAUER: I'm
MR. BAUER: I'maa little
little confused,
confused, because
because ifif
59 they'ze
they're not
not thethe same
same documents
docunents =
1010 WR. HOR: Yes.
MR. HUR: Yes.
un11 MR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: —- what what would
would bebe thethe basis
basis ofof
12||
12 setreshing
refreshing his
his recollection?
recollection?
113 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Well, Well, ifif hishis response
response isis thatthat they
they do.do.
114 MR. BAUER: Okay.
MR. BAUER: Okay.
1s15 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: It doesn't refresh
It doesn't refresh hishis recollection
recollection ----
116 WR.
MR. BAUER:
BAUER: Okay. Okay.
17 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT BIDEN: No, No, this
this doesn't
doesn't refresh
refresh mymy
16||
18 secotiection.
recollection. But I'm
But I'm sure
sure thethe purpose
purpose ofof thethe meeting
meating waswas toto
15||
19 find
find out out what
what the members ofof Congress
the members Congress thought
thought about about thethe Iran
Iran
20||20 deal.
deal. 1I mean,
mean, that's
that's why I'dI'd been
why been meeting
nesting withwith them
them about
about it.it.
21||21 ©I assume
assume that'sthat's hy II was
why was meeting
meeting withwith themthem about.
about. II don'tdon't
22||
22 know
know whatwhat else
else —- it's contemporaneous,
-- it's contemporaneous, and and I'm
I'm sitting
sitting down,
down,
23||23 and
and 1m I'm having
having thesethese discussions.
discussions. And And itit says
says thethe people
people I'mI'm
24||
24 meeting
meeting with
with aze are the the people
people who who would
would have have interest.
interest. You You
25||
25 know,
know, angus
Angus KingKing and and --= withwith thethe democrats.
democrats. And And --—-
[py
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2 PRESIDENT BIDEN: -- Bob Corker, Colin Kahl.
3 MR. HUR: . So after this breakfast, do you recall
4 having other conversations in the following days with other
5 members of Congress?
6 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't remember anything in
7||7 terms
terms of the chronology,
of the who II met,
chronology, who met, when
when and
and where.
where. The
The
8 situation with regard to whether or not to make any deal
9 with Iran, I mean, with -- yeah, with Iran or not, has been
10 an ongoing, up and down discussion for a long time, even to
11 yesterday, before the Israeli thing. So it would not
12 surprise me if the meetings -- if someone at that meeting
13 you showed me a picture -- Corker, one of these guys said,
14 well, what we're talking about with Afghanistan -- I mean,
15
15 what
what we're
we're talking
talking about
about with
with Iraq
Iraq --
--
16 MR. SISKEL: Iran.
17 PRESIDENT BI DEN: Iran, because it's an ongoing
18 discussion. And we were negotiating also at the same time,
19 remember, with all our NATO allies on what we do, vis-a-vis,
20 Iran, and whether or not they were on or not. So there was a
21 lot of discussion. And it was not one of the subjects that I
22 knew a lot about, but I wasn't -- I did not have a
23 definitive view, I wasn't in making the case like I did in
24 Iraq and other places.
25 MR. HUR: And after the end of your vice

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22 MR.
MR. HUR: -- presidency,
HUR: -- presidency, did
did you
you consult
consult these
these
3||
3 materials
materials relating
relating to the
to the Iran
Iran nuclear
nuclear deal
deal at
at any
any point?
point?
«|4 bia
Did you
you Know that they
know that tney were
vere atat the
the Penn
remn Biden
Biden Center?
center?
s5 ERESIDENT BIDEN: No.
PRESIDENTBIDEN: No. And And I,I, Idont recall
don't recall
66 consulting
consulting anything
anything having to do
having to do with
with any
any material
material with
with
77]| regard
regard to
to ran.
Iran.
o8 NSC. State, DOD
9
|
10|
10
111 — I|
12|
12
ar]
13
10|
14
15
15 MR.
MR. SISKEL: And, sir,
SISKEL: And, sir, just
just toto clarify,
clarify, that's
that's
16||
16 uring
during your
your —-- .
ts17 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Oh,
PRESIDENTBIDEN: Oh, that's
that's justjust --—
118 MR. SISKEL: That's
MR. SISKEL: That's (indiscernible
(indiscernible 0:07:57.5)
0:07:57.) youryour
19||
19 presidency,
presidency, which they're not
which they're not interested
interested in.in.
2»20 [Pag
MR. HUR: Right.

PRESIDENTBIDEN: No, IT know,
know, but but II want
vant toto give
ive
22||
22 you
you content.
context inin my,
my, my —- the
my -- the depth
depth ofof my my engagement.
engagement. And,And,
23|| anyway.
23 anyway.
224 Me.
MR. HOR: Okay. SoSo letlet me
HUR: Okay. me ask
ask aa slightly
slightly
25|| aitrorent
25 different question,
question, but riting off
but riffing oft one
one II asked
asked you
you before.
before.
comms anporksng. Tramssipeion
ere unSe
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 [0:08:20.9)
[0:08:20.9]
2 MR. HUR: Did you consult these materials during
3 your work on Promise Me, Dad with Mr. Zwonitzer?
4 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't recall consulting any
5 material per se, that was in a folder or anything, for
6 Promise Me, Dad.
77 MR. HUR: Mr.

MR. HUR: President, do
Mr. President, do you
you have
have any
any idea
idea how
how
8 these documents relating to the Iran nuclear deal ended up in
9 these files that were recovered from the Penn Biden Center?
10 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Other than when they were sent
11 to the Penn Biden Center, they followed on my vice
12 presidency, and it was one of the many subjects that were
13
13 talked
talked about
about in my vice
in my vice presidency.
presidency. So whatever
So whatever materials
materials
14 taken from the vice presidency over to the -- over to Penn
15
15 Biden
Biden Center,
Center, that's what
that's what --
-- II mean,
mean, there's
there's aa lot
lot of
of things
things
16 I'm sure that got to the Penn Biden Center that are no
17
17 longer
longer being
being actively
actively discussed.
discussed.
18 MR. HUR: Anything else on this? Okay. I think I
19 came in under 10.
20 MR. BAUER: You did.
21 MR. HUR: Okay.
22 MR. BAUER: You did.
23 MS. COTTON: One minute under.
24 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: One minute under
25 budget.
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
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11 [0:09:27.4]
[0:09:27.4]
22 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER:

UNIDENTIFIEDMALE Under budget.
SPEAKER: Under budget.
33 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: Actually over
KRICKBAUM:Actually over budget.
budget.
14 MR.
MR. HOR:
HUR: Thank you.
Thank you.
55 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN: By the
BIDEN: By the way,
way, my
my budgets
budgets exceed
exceed
6|6 $1.7
$1.7 trillion.
trillion.
77 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: There you
KRICKBAOM: There you go.
go.
o|8 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
99 MR.
MR. HUR: Thank you,
HUR: Thank again, for
you, again, for your
your time
time
10||
10 Mr.
Mr. President.
President. We're very
We're grateful.
very grateful.

PRESIDENTBIDEN: Okay, well
well --
12
12 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: We
We appreciate
appreciate itit very
very much.
much.
13
13 PRESIDENT BIDEN:
PRESIDENT All right.
BIDEN: All right. II know
know it's
it's aa lot
lot of
of
14||
14 work
work for
for you
you -- putting aa lot
-- putting lot together.
together. II may
may now
now write
write aa
15
15 book,
book, you have
have all this (indiscernible
all this (indiscernible 0:09:51.2).
0:09:51.2).
16||
16 (Laughter)
(Laughter)
17
17 MR.
MR. KRICKBAUM: We'll turn
KRICKBAUM: We'll turn offoff the
the recorder.
recorder.
10
18 MR.
MR. HUR:
HUR: Yes, let's stop
Yes, let's stop the
the recorder.
recorder.
19
19 PRESIDENT
PRESIDENTBIDEN:
BIDEN: ThatThat was
vas aa joke.
joke.
20
20 UNIDENTIFIED
UNIDENTIFIEDMALE MALE SPEAKER:
SPEAKER: Yes. Yes.
2
21 vs.
MS. EENGSONEN:• The The time
time isis 2:19.
2:19. This
This concludes
concludes
22||
22 the
the interview.
interview.
23
23 (Bnd
(End of recording)
of recording)
2
24
25
25
FREEReporting
Court STATE
Court Reporting
FREE REPORTING, INC.
Transcription
Tranacription
D.C. Rxea 301-261-1902
D.C. Area 301-261-1505
L DosHCHURataEzES
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000288
1 m— I oo
DRAFT
CERTIFICATE
%
98
mmm
22 1,
I, [CE o:tify that
certify that the
the foregoing
foregoing
33|| pages (1 through
pages (1 through 63)
63) are
are aa true
true and correct transcript,
and correct transcript, to
to
4 the best of my ability, of the above pages, of the RECORDED
55|| INTERVIEW
INTERVIEW provided
provided to
to me
me by
by the
the Special
Special Counsel's
Counsel's Office.
Office.
rm
66 II further
further certify
certify that
that II am neither counsel
am neither counsel for,
for,
77 || related
related to,
to, nor
nor employed
employed by
by any
any of the parties
of the parties to
to the
the action
action
Hf
:
99 financially nor
financially nor otherwise interested in
otherwise interested in the
the outcome
outcome of
of the
the
10 action.
A
11
:: a _
12
12 DOJ
13 October 16, 2023

Date
:
14 Transcriber
15
2]me
16
|mmme
17
17 Within this
Within this transcript
transcript of proceedings, some
of proceedings, some of
of the
the
18 names and/or technical terms are spelled phonetically,
::
20 were not
were not made available
available to
to us
us for
for reference.
reference.
::
21
22
:
23
Te
24
25
I _—
Court
Court Reporting. Transcripeion
D.C. Area 301-261-1902
DOJ-HJC-HUR-0000289
I DRAFT os
99
11 cErrIrIcATE
CERTIFICATE
22 =,I, [EI
-ertify that thethe foregoing
that foregoing pages
pages
3||3 (64
(64 through
through 97)
97) are
are a true and
a true and correct
correct transcript,
transcript, toto the
the
a] best
4 best of
of my
my abi1sey,
ability, ofof the
tne above
above pages,
pages, ofof thethe RECORDED
rEcomED
55 INTERVIEW
INTERVIEW provided
provided to me
to me by
by the
the Special
Special Counsel's
Counsel's Office.
Office.
66 1I further
further certify that
certify that II am
am neither
neither counsel
counsel for,
for,
7|7 related
related to,
to, nor
nor employed by any
employed by any of
of the
the parties
parties toto the
the action
action
8||
8 in
in which
which this
this recording
reco:rding was taken,
was taken, and
and further
further that
that II am
am not
not
99 financially
financially nor
nor otherwise
otherwise interested in
interested in the
the outcome
outcome of
of the
the
10
10 action.
action.
u11
1212 on
13
Lre.ae.
October
13 October 17,
17, 2023
2023 [7
Date
14
14 ‘Transcriber
Transcriber
1515
1616
wr17 Within
Within this transcript ofof proceedings,
this transcript proceedings, some some ofof thethe
18|
18 men
names enon
and/ or smmten
technical vase arewus spelled
terms etiam phoneticalJ.y,
181]19 Ansemsihs
inasmuch vwas wibiiihn,
exhibits, Whew and
files snd supporting
sporting documentation
decantation
20]20 wee
were ne
not wore
made emianne
available vo us0 forvr reference.
to orm
221
222
»23
224
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Transcript of Biden Interview With Special Counsel Robert Hur

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Transcript of Biden Interview With Special Counsel Robert Hur

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I DRAFT

4 with President Joseph Biden.

everybody. Mr. President, thank you for your time.

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11 everyone who's here. I'm Rob Hur, the special counsel,

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2 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAK~R: No.

3 PRESIDENT BIDEN: No.

4 MR. HUR: Okay. All right. Well, Mr. President,

9 PRESIDENT EIDEN: We may be interrupted by one.

10 MR. HUR: Understood. Understood.

11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I don't -- I hope not.

12 MR. HUR: We hope not too.

13 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I just got off the phone with

16 we know that you have provided significant cooperation with

17 our investigation, and I wanted to personally recognize that

18 and thank you for it.

19 PRESIDENT BIDEN: The FBI knows my house better

22 MR. HUR: I'm not sure about that, sir.

23 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm pretty sure.

24 MR. HUR: I hope it's been obvious during the

25 months that we've been at work that my goals have been to

2 MR. HUR: -- do a thorough and professional job,

3 but also to do it as swiftly as possible. And your

4 cooperation has been very helpful in us trying to achieve

5 all of those goals, especially the efficiency of our, of our

9 investigation. Obviously, your willingness to sit for this

10 interview today and tomorrow and answer our questions is

11 part of that cooperation. It's obviously very important to

12 answer our questions truthfully. And we appreciate very

15 get your best recollection in response to the questions we

16 ask, because I acknowledge that some of the questions we are

17 asking relate to events that happened years ago.

18 PRESIDENT BIDEN: I'm a young man, so it's not a

22 A couple of other ministerial notes. I may ask a

23 question that is unclear or badly phrased. I sometimes do

2 MR. HUR: then you should.say, I don't

3 understand what you're saying. You should ask me to try to

4 clarify it and I'll take another crack at it.

5 PRESIDENT BIDEN: Okay.

6 MR. HUR: And then should you ever want to take a

7 break today or tomorrow

8 PRESIDENT BIDEN: By the way, there's a restroom

9 right behind us.

10 MR. HUR: Oh, thank you.

11 PRESIDENT BIDEN: For the rest of you as well.

12 MR. HUR: Good to know. Thank you.

13 Should you ever want to take a break during the

14 interview, including to confer with members of the White

18 MR. HUR: All right.

19 MR. BAUER: Rob?

20 MR. HUR: Yes.

21 MR. BAUER: On the question of clarity, the

22 question -- we don't want to interrupt the flow.

23 MR. HUR: Um-hmm.

24 MR. BAUER: Of course, if Ed or I have any

25 uncertainty about what you're asking --