Bucks County Kayden Mancuso

IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF BUCKS COUNTY, PA
FAMILY COURT DIVISION
* * *
JEFFREY MANCUSO : NO. A06-16-60768-C-40
:
:
v. :
:
:
KATHRYN GIGLIO :
* * *
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
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BEFORE: HON. JEFFREY G. TRAUGER, J.
* * *
Thursday, March 9, 2017
Courtroom No. 330
Doylestown, Pennsylvania
* * *
APPEARANCES:
FREDERICK M. STANCZAK, ESQ.
-- For Jeffrey Mancuso
KRISTINE MICHAEL, ESQ.
-- For Kathryn Giglio Sherlock
* * *
RICHELE G. VOICE, RMR
INDEX TO WITNESSES
Witness Direct Cross Redir. Recr.
JEFFREY MANCUSO
By Mr. Stanczyk 6 35
By Ms. Michael 26
CATHERINE MANCUSO
By Ms. Michael 43
KATHRYN GIGLIO SHERLOCK
By Ms. Michael 46 68
BRIAN SHERLOCK
By Ms. Michael 71
By Mr. Stanczyk 76
INDEX TO EXHIBITS
Exhibit Description Ident.
F-1 10-26-16 Family Wizard correspondence 10
F-2 11-22-16 Family Wizard correspondence 15
F-3 Invitation to birthday party 18
F-4 Letter dated December 9, 2016 21
* * *
M-1 12-23-16 Family Wizard correspondence 33

M-2 December 2016 text messages 50
M-3 10-27-16 email to Nina DeMent 52
M-4 Pictures from GPS locater 55
M-5 Photograph of car 73
M-6 Aerial map and two photographs 73
4
1 (Both parties were present and represented

2 by counsel.)
3 * * *
4 THE COURT: The next matter I'll hear is
5 Mancuso versus Giglio. If counsel and the parties
6 would approach.
7 For the record, this is Father's motion
8 to approve out-of-state travel and Mother's petition
9 for contempt of custody order. Correct?
10 MS. MICHAEL: Correct, Your Honor.
11 MR. STANCZAK: Correct.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Counsel can identify
13 themselves for the record, and then I will ask that
14 your clients be sworn.
15 MR. STANCZAK: Good morning, Your Honor.
16 Frederick Stanczak. I'm counsel for the father.
17 THE COURT: Good morning.
18 MS. MICHAEL: And Christine Michael for
19 Mother.
20 THE COURT: Good morning.
21 MS. MICHAEL: Good morning.
22 * * *
23 (KATHRYN GIGLIO and JEFFREY MANCUSO were
24 duly sworn.)
25 * * *
5
1 THE COURT: Are there any other persons in

2 the courtroom that are possible witnesses of this
3 proceeding that should be --
4 MR. STANCZAK: Yes.
5 THE COURT: -- sequestered?
6 MR. STANCZAK: Oh, Your Honor, Mr. Mancuso's
7 mother is here, Kathleen Mancuso.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Will she be a witness?
10 MS. MICHAEL: And my client's husband is here
11 as well, who also will be testifying.
12 THE COURT: Both of these parties are
13 potential witnesses?
14 MS. MICHAEL: Can you leave?
15 THE COURT: I'm assuming that there's a
16 mutual request for sequestration?
18 MS. MICHAEL: That's fine.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Who filed first here?
20 MS. MICHAEL: Father.
21 MR. STANCZAK: I did, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Excuse me?
23 MR. STANCZAK: I filed first, Your Honor.
24 MS. MICHAEL: Father.
25 THE COURT: So you may call your first
6
1 witness.
2 MR. STANCZAK: Thank you. We call Jeffrey
3 Mancuso.
4 * * *
5 JEFFREY MANCUSO,
MANCUSO having been
6 previously sworn, was examined and testified as
7 follows:
8 DIRECT EXAMINATION
9 BY MR. STANCZAK:
10 Q. State your name for the record, please.
11 A. Jeffrey Mancuso.
12 THE COURT: Can everybody hear?
13 THE WITNESS: Testing.
14 BY MR. STANCZAK:
15 Q. You're the father of Kayden Mancuso, correct, the
16 child?
17 A. That's correct.
18 Q. This motion concerns the Paragraph 17 of the interim
19 order that requires consent by either parent for out-of-state
20 travel. Is that your understanding?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And you are here asking the Court to either grant
23 permission for you to engage in out-of-state travel or to
24 modify the order to change that provision to notice as opposed
25 to consent. Is that correct?
7
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Now, let me just start with background
3 questions. Why is it that you are asking the Court -- strike
4 that, please. What is your reason generally for traveling
5 outside of the State of New Jersey with Kayden when you have
6 her?
7 A. Well, my entire family's from New Jersey. I'm from
8 New Jersey. And, you know, my mother lives there. My
9 brother, my sister, my father. You know, friends. You know,
10 everybody. We have -- all of our roots are in New Jersey.
11 Q. Okay. And where do you live?
12 A. I live in Philadelphia.
13 Q. And where does your mother live?
14 A. She lives in Mount Laurel, New Jersey.
15 Q. About how far is that from your house?
16 A. I mean it could take 20 minutes, depending on
17 travel.
18 Q. Now, prior to the interim order in this matter being
19 entered, during -- was there any arrangement or agreement
20 between yourself and Mother with regard to custody?
21 A. Yes, we had an agreement in place.
22 Q. Okay. And was that an agreement that was sanctioned
23 by a court, or was it informal?
24 A. Well, we were supposed to actually get it filed, and
25 I don't know what ended up happening. I signed it. And I
8
1 agreed to it. And then I guess she fired her attorney or

2 something and it just never got filed with the Court. So, you
3 know, once Kathy took Kayden, you know, I said -- I had
4 enough, and I had to go to court. So --
5 Q. Okay.
6 A. She wasn't following the agreement.
7 Q. All right. What was that -- what did that agreement
8 address with regard to out-of-state travel? What did it
9 state?
10 A. Absolutely no restrictions.
11 Q. Was there a requirement for notice?
12 A. No. No.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. Not at all. She had no objections to it before.
15 Q. Okay. And --
16 MS. MICHAEL: Objection.
17 THE COURT: Overruled. She'll be able to
18 testify that she did have, obviously.
19 BY MR. STANCZAK:
20 Q. Okay. Did Miss Giglio ever -- during that period of
21 time, did she ever voice objections to you with regard to
22 out-of-state travel?
23 A. Not once.
24 Q. Okay. And --
25 A. And we traveled quite frequently to New Jersey,
9
1 pretty much every weekend, whether it be the shore or, you

2 know, my mom's house. You know, they have a very close
3 relationship. And not once was there ever an issue with it.
4 Q. Okay.
5 THE COURT: Is this when you were together or
6 when you were separated?
7 THE WITNESS: No, when we were separated.
8 MR. STANCZAK: Now --
9 THE WITNESS: And that was for six years,
10 so --
11 BY MR. STANCZAK:
12 Q. What is the relationship -- how would you describe
13 the relationship between your daughter, Kayden, and your
14 mother?
15 A. They're incredibly close. I mean from birth, she
16 baby-sat. You know, weekly visits from my mother. It
17 seriously I think is what keeps her going. She gives her so
18 much joy. You know, my -- my sister and I both agreed that,
19 you know, that's what is pretty much keeping my mom going at
20 this point. So --
21 Q. And what is -- have you noticed Kayden's reaction to
22 visiting your mother, her grandmother? Does she like it?
23 A. She absolutely loves it. She -- she even asks to
24 go. You know, she says, "Can we go" --
10
1 THE WITNESS: "Can we go to Mam-mom's?"

2 THE COURT: Sustained. You can't say what
3 your daughter said. But -- continue.
4 BY MR. STANCZAK:
5 Q. Now, since the interim order was entered, have
6 you -- well, what is your understanding what the order
7 provides with regard to out-of-state travel?
8 A. It says that I -- it requires permission from Kathy
9 to leave the State of Pennsylvania. So --
10 Q. Have you asked the mother for permission to engage
11 in that kind of travel?
12 A. Absolutely. As soon as I read the court order, I
13 asked through the Family Wizard, and she responded "Absolutely
14 not." You know, "I don't care if you have a" -- "I don't care
15 if Kayden sees your mother. You're not leaving the state."
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. Actually, initially she responded, "You can notify
18 me." And then we further clarified it and she says, "No, you
19 do not have my permission."
20 Q. Okay. I'm going show you a document -- I'm going to
21 mark this as F-1 if that's all right with the Court.
22 (Father's Exhibit Number 1 was marked for
23 identification.)
24 BY MR. STANCZAK:
25 Q. Now, you said that you had initially requested
11
1 permission through Family Wizard. Is that correct?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And this -- what is this document I just handed you?
4 The print is rather small. First, look at the --
5 THE COURT: Was this copy provided to you?
7 THE COURT: Do you have any objection to
8 this?
9 MS. MICHAEL: No.
10 THE COURT: F-1 will be admitted into the
11 record.
12 THE WITNESS: It's basically part of the
13 conversation of me asking, you know, for permission.
14 BY MR. STANCZAK:
15 Q. Okay. And just to focus this, it's October 26,
16 2016. Is that correct?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. And the bottom portion is you asking Ms. Giglio for
19 permission. Is that correct?
20 A. This looks like the -- the end of that conversation.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. There was something before that.
23 Q. All right. So the top of that message is her
24 response to your earlier request?
25 A. That's me at the very top. And then she responds.
12
1 And then I respond.

2 Q. Okay. All right. So what was her response at that
3 time?
4 A. "You have cost me thousands of fucking dollars in
5 attorneys. You lied about every single thing in court and" --
6 Q. Do you see that one?
7 A. That's what I am saying, do we have the same thing
8 here?
9 Q. I'm sorry. That's the wrong one.
10 MS. MICHAEL: Your Honor, I'm not sure what
11 document the witness is looking at right now.
12 THE COURT: Can we look at the actual
13 marked --
14 MR. STANCZAK: October 26.
15 THE COURT: Well, where's the original marked
16 F-1? Does he have that in front of him?
17 MR. STANCZAK: Yeah, I believe he does. Yes.
18 THE WITNESS: That makes more sense now.
19 MS. MICHAEL: Your Honor, the document that I
20 have here marked as F-1 does not contain any of the
21 things the witness just said.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 THE WITNESS: Yeah, you must have handed me
24 the wrong one.
25 THE COURT: Just wait a minute. Have counsel
13
1 get his exhibits straight. Let me make sure that the

2 documents that are presented to the Court correspond.
4 THE COURT: So F-1 is what?
5 THE WITNESS: This is my initial reaching out
6 to her to ask if I could bring her out of state, if we
7 could -- you know, we had an agreement so we don't have
8 to notify each other every time we take her out of
9 Pennsylvania.
10 THE COURT: That's F-1.
11 THE WITNESS: Yes.
12 MR. STANCZAK: F-1, Your Honor, that's
13 October 26th, 2016. I apologize, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: That's okay. Okay. Of 2016,
15 original outreach. All right.
16 All right. Please continue.
17 THE WITNESS: And she says, "I don't agree to
18 that."
19 Well, I said, "The court order says
20 there needs to be an agreement to take Kayden out of
21 Pennsylvania, yet we both have family" and your husband
22 has family in New Jersey. "We've already had this
23 agreed, so I just want to make sure it's agreed moving
24 forward that we don't have to notify each other every
25 time we take her out of Pennsylvania."
14
1 She says, "I don't agree to that. I

2 have no need to bring her out of Pennsylvania" -- or
3 "Pa. So yes, you can notify me when you need to bring
4 her out of state or get a court order. Your choice."
5 BY MR. STANCZAK:
6 Q. How did you understand that response?
7 A. Well, at first she said "notify". We both said
8 "notify". But actually the court order said "permission".
9 So then I clarified that further. I said -- I
10 explained, you know, it's stated that I need to ask
11 permission, and you have to ask permission of me, and then she
12 further denied it. That's where she actually mentioned, "I
13 don't care if Kayden sees your mother."
14 Q. Okay.
15 THE COURT: Now, do you have an F-2 marked
16 already, too, sir?
17 MR. STANCZAK: Yes, Your Honor. One second.
18 THE COURT: Has that been provided to --
19 MR. STANCZAK: No, not yet.
20 MS. MICHAEL: Your Honor? May I verify which
21 version of F-1 you're looking at?
22 (Exhibit handed to Ms. Michael.)
23 MS. MICHAEL: Thank you. Thank you, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: Okay.
15
1 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. And F-2 I believe --

2 can I see the first document I handed you? This will
3 be F-2.
5 identification.)
6 THE COURT: Let me ask Ms. Michael, do you
7 have any objection to F-2?
8 MS. MICHAEL: Give me a moment to read it,
9 Your Honor.
10 No objection, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: F-2's admitted. I'll take a
12 bench copy. And in order to expedite this, I can read
13 this.
14 MR. STANCZAK: All right.
15 THE COURT: So if you wish to sort of just
16 highlight it. It doesn't need to be read into the
17 record.
18 MR. STANCZAK: All right.
19 BY MR. STANCZAK:
20 Q. And this is dated November 22nd. Is that correct?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And just describe briefly what the interaction --
23 interchange was in -- as reflected in this e-mail.
24 THE COURT: What date did you say?
25 MR. STANCZAK: November 22nd.
16
1 THE COURT: That's not the one I have.

2 MR. STANCZAK: Oh, sorry.
3 MS. MICHAEL: I'm sorry. What's this? Is
4 this F-3?
5 MR. STANCZAK: November 22nd is F-2. That's
6 what was marked.
7 MINUTE CLERK: This is 10/26.
8 THE COURT: Counsel, would you like five
9 minutes to get your exhibits straight?
10 MR. STANCZAK: Just one minute, Your Honor.
11 I just wanted to make sure -- if I could see the copy
12 submitted to the Court.
13 MINUTE CLERK: The bench copy is dated 10/26,
14 which is a reflection of F-1.
15 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. That's F-1. And F-2 is
16 marked as --
17 MR. EURBGS: F-2 is 11/22.
18 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. All right. I'll return
19 that to you. This is F-2.
20 BY MR. STANCZAK:
21 Q. All right. F-2 in front of you is November 22nd?
22 THE COURT: Hold on. Wait.
24 THE COURT: Let counsel have a chance to
25 review that.
17
1 MS. MICHAEL: I would ask before we do

2 anything, that we all make sure we're all looking at
3 the same document with the same mark. So --
4 MR. STANCZAK: F-2 is November 22nd, 2016.
5 MS. MICHAEL: With the subject
6 "Thanksgiving"?
8 MS. MICHAEL: Okay.
9 BY MR. STANCZAK:
10 Q. All right. Can you describe for the Court what the
11 interaction was as reflected in that e-mail?
12 A. Yeah. It was basically when I -- I went to Kayden's
13 soccer game, or I took Kayden to her soccer game. Kayden
14 asked me to go to Mam-mom's, and so I said, "You have to ask
15 Mommy."
16 And so we passed Kathy, and Kayden said, "Can
17 we go to "Grandmom's?"
18 And Kathy, you know, just said, "Do what you
19 want." You know. Got in her car. And we went to go to
20 Mam-mom's, wanted to go to Mam-mom's, so we went.
21 Q. And does this e-mail address that, the fact that you
22 had taken her to New Jersey for Thanksgiving?
23 A. This one specifically doesn't.
24 Q. And what is reflected in this e-mail?
25 A. What's that?
18
1 Q. This is the e-mail in which it is reflected that you

2 asked her -- instructed Kayden to request permission from her
3 mother. Is that correct?
4 A. I didn't instruct her. Well, I -- I said, "You have
5 to ask Mommy." And so she rolled down the window and asked.
6 Q. Okay. Now, since that time have you requested
7 permission from your -- from the mother to take Kayden to New
8 Jersey?
9 A. I mean I asked multiple times. She always denied
10 it. But when Brian's niece had per birthday party, she --
11 Kayden came to me with the invitation, and so I took her --
12 and Brian's family's from New Jersey as well. So I took her
13 to the birthday party.
14 So it just goes to show that, you know, out of
15 spite, she said no to my grandmom, to take her to my mother's
16 house, and -- but when it's going to Brian's niece's party,
17 it's okay. You know, it's a complete manipulation of, you
18 know --
19 Q. Who is Brian?
20 A. Her husband.
21 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. And I'm going to mark
22 this as F-3.
24 identification.)
25 THE COURT: One moment. I just want to be
19
1 sure. F-1 is how many pages?

2 MR. STANCZAK: Two pages. F-1's one page.
3 MINUTE CLERK: One page, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Just one page?
5 MR. STANCZAK: Yes. Yes.
6 THE COURT: How many pages is F-2?
7 MR. STANCZAK: Two pages. That's one. I'm
8 sorry.
9 THE COURT: One page.
10 MINUTE CLERK: One page as well, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: All right. So F-3. How many
12 pages?
13 MR. STANCZAK: One page.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 BY MR. STANCZAK:
16 Q. You mentioned a birthday party that Kayden had told
17 you about. Is that correct?
18 A. Yes. She came to me with this invitation, and she
19 said, "Can you take me to Katelyn's," who is Brian's niece.
20 Q. That's F-3?
21 A. Yeah. To the party that's in Cherry Hill, New
22 Jersey. It's actually I mean literally a quarter mile from
23 where my father lives. So --
24 Q. Okay. And what she was asking you was for you to
25 deliver -- take Kayden to the party to drop her off. In New
20
1 Jersey.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Okay. And other than this invitation and your
4 daughter handing you this invitation and telling you that, did
5 you receive any communication from the mother in regard to
6 this birthday party?
7 A. No. We're only supposed to communicate through
8 Family Wizard and, you know, Kathy didn't say anything about
9 it. She's just using Kayden --
11 THE WITNESS: -- as --
12 THE COURT: I'll sustain the objection.
13 What's the nature of the objection?
14 MS. MICHAEL: He's drawing a conclusion, Your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: I'll allow him to his own
17 conclusion. And your client can testify to the
18 contrary.
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, she's basically using
20 Kayden as her pawn, you know, in her chess match of
21 spite, you know. And so, you know, there's no asking
22 me for permission from Kathy. There was no
23 notification from Kathy. It was just Kayden, you know,
24 when I picked her up from school, she had this
25 invitation, and she wanted to go. And, you know,
21
1 obviously me being her dad, I, you know, didn't want to

2 upset her, so I brought her to Brian's niece's party.
3 You know, I don't really know Brian's family or
4 anything, so -- for Kayden.
5 BY MR. STANCZAK:
6 Q. And the party was -- your understanding was that the
7 mother would be at that party when it came time for you to
8 drop Kayden back off. Right?
9 A. Oh, I don't know -- I didn't know if Kathy was going
10 to come or not. It was my weekend. So --
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. I just did it, you know, because Kayden wanted me
13 to. So --
14 Q. Okay. Now, did you -- did all this occur prior to
15 your retaining me in this matter?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And after you spoke to me about it, did you
18 discuss with me this concern -- your concern about this
19 Paragraph 17 of the interim order?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. I show you an exhibit. This is F-4.
23 identification.)
24 THE COURT: Any objection to F-3?
25 MS. MICHAEL: No, Your Honor.
22
1 THE COURT: F-3 is admitted.

2 BY MR. STANCZAK:
3 Q. And do you recognize F-4?
4 A. That's what you had faxed to Kathy's attorney.
5 Q. Okay. Now, without going through the entire letter,
6 do you recall whether this letter suggested that the parties
7 agreed to modify that paragraph of the order?
8 A. Yeah, we tried to come to an agreement before taking
9 it to court.
10 Q. Okay. Has Kathleen -- I'm sorry, has the mother
11 ever expressed to you through Family Wizard or otherwise her
12 reason as to why she does not want to consent to out-of-state
13 travel on your part?
14 A. She said a number of things. You know, that I'm a
15 danger or something. But yet when it comes to bringing Kayden
16 to Kaitlyn's birthday party, all of a sudden I'm not a danger.
17 You know? So -- you know.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. But she never, you know, once said yes or agreed to
20 me bringing her out.
21 Q. Now, we attended a conference with the Court
22 Conciliation Master last week?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Okay. And was the mother there?
25 A. Yes.
23
1 Q. The mother.
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. At the conference last week that we attended in
4 court.
5 A. Oh, the conference. I thought you meant the CCES
6 meeting. Never mind. No. At the Master's office. No, she
7 didn't attend.
8 Q. And the focus of that conference was to consider
9 this motion. Is that correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. So was there any communication -- counsel was there.
12 Correct? Counsel for the mother?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And was there any reason given at that time as to
15 why the mother was refusing consent, flat-out refusing no?
16 A. No, there's no explanation.
17 Q. Out-of-state travel. Okay. Your mother --
18 A. In fact you actually asked her if they would -- if
19 she would agree, and then she said that she had no authority
20 to do so. So obviously Kathy still hadn't --
22 THE WITNESS: -- given her permission.
23 THE COURT: Sustained. I understand the
24 case, counsel.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay.
24
1 BY MR. STANCZAK:
2 Q. Now, is your mother able to travel to your home to
3 visit with Kayden when you have her?
4 A. No. She --
5 Q. No?
6 A. I mean she's physically disabled. She's, you know,
7 literally considered handicapped. You know, as far as, you
8 know, getting around in Manayunk, those hills, you know,
9 she's -- in my house, she can't even go to the bathroom, you
10 know, because it's on the second floor. She can't drive at
11 night. She has cataracts. You know. The answer's no, she
12 can't come visit.
13 Q. Aside from your mother, you mentioned a number of
14 other relatives in your family who live in New Jersey. Does
15 Kayden have relationships with them as well?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. How would you describe those relationships?
18 A. She, you know, loves her Uncle Randy and, you know,
19 her Aunt Allison, and -- you know.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Kayden's sort of what brings everybody together.
22 You know?
23 Q. Does she have relatives -- you mentioned relatives
24 on her mother's side who live in New Jersey. Are there
25 relatives on the mother's side who live in New Jersey?
25
1 A. I believe Brian's whole family does.

2 Q. Okay. Do you have any objection to Mother traveling
3 with Kayden to see her?
4 A. No, of course not. I think it's healthy. I think
5 she should. I would never, you know, object.
6 Q. In terms of the impact on Kayden, what do you
7 believe is in her best interest with regard to whether or not
8 you should be allowed to have her visit relatives on your side
9 of the family without consent of the mother, but with notice?
10 A. When I initially told her, she actually started
11 crying hysterically.
13 MR. STANCZAK: Your Honor, I think --
14 THE COURT: That's overruled.
15 THE WITNESS: You know, she was -- she was
16 crying. My mother was crying. You know. It was
17 actually a very stressful time. I mean that was -- you
18 know, it was causing everybody a lot of angst.
19 BY MR. STANCZAK:
20 Q. When was it?
21 A. That was immediately, you know, after we got the
22 court order.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And immediately after, you know, Kathy said no.
25 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. All right. That's all.
26
1 THE COURT: Cross-examination.

2 * * *
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. MICHAEL:
5 Q. Mr. Mancuso, you were here in front of Judge Trauger
6 in October on this subject. Correct?
7 A. It wasn't specifically about this. It was the
8 entire --
9 Q. Custody.
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And was either of you represented by an attorney at
12 that hearing?
13 A. I was. I guess she fired her attorney.
14 Q. So you were represented, but she was not.
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Okay. And at this hearing, you had the opportunity
17 to present your various concerns to the Judge at that time?
18 A. The thing was, it was never a part of anything. So
19 we had no idea that --
20 Q. Did you have the opportunity to --
21 MR. STANCZAK: Excuse me, Your Honor.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to answer your
23 question.
24 THE COURT: Hold on. Hold on.
25 MR. STANCZAK: He should be allowed to answer
27
1 his question.
2 THE COURT: For the court reporter's benefit,
3 only one person can talk at a time. Both counsel knows
4 that.
5 Sir, one person at a time.
6 THE WITNESS: Yes.
7 THE COURT: Okay? Ask your question.
8 BY MS. MICHAEL:
9 Q. My question is did you have the opportunity to
10 present your concerns to the Court?
11 THE COURT: And sir, that's a yes or no.
12 THE WITNESS: Is it yes or no or? We -- it
13 was never an issue in the prior agreement, so we had --
14 we -- this restriction never was a part of anything.
15 So it wasn't even mentioned. Because we had no idea
16 that it would ever become, you know, a restriction.
17 So --
18 BY MS. MICHAEL:
19 Q. Sir, did you have an opportunity to discuss your
20 concerns regarding custody at that hearing?
21 A. I believe I answered your question.
22 MS. MICHAEL: Your Honor, may I?
23 THE COURT: Please move on. I understand the
24 question. Yes, he did. But he never thought that this
25 provision would be a big issue. That's the answer.
28
1 MS. MICHAEL: Sure.

2 BY MS. MICHAEL:
3 Q. And this is the order that the Judge entered after
4 that hearing. Correct?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. And this is an interim order. Correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. And the two of you are attending CCES.
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And you had your individual meeting with CCES?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And Kathy's had her individual meeting with CCES?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And you've had a joint meeting?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And you have a meeting scheduled with the two of you
17 and your daughter next week. Correct?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. So CCES is proceeding.
20 A. Correct. I can also -- can I add to that?
21 THE COURT: There's no question.
22 THE WITNESS: All right.
23 BY MS. MICHAEL:
24 Q. Can you show me from your Family Wizard records
25 where you specifically asked Kathy if you could take the child
29
1 out of state on a particular day after the October exchange

2 where you asked her about it?
3 A. I believe I already -- it was the first exhibit that
4 we had where I asked her.
5 Q. I'm going to show -- the first exhibit, F-1? This
6 was dated October 26th. Correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. So it's just a few days after the order was entered.
9 Correct?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Okay. And in this, you ask, "I just want to make
12 sure it's agreed moving forward that we don't have to notify
13 each other every time we take her out of Pennsylvania."
14 Correct?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. You didn't say, "This Saturday I want to go to my
17 mother's."
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Okay. Do you have any e-mails or any texts or any
20 communications on this Wizard where you asked her a specific
21 day, "Can I take the child to my mother's on this day?"
22 A. I asked initially if we could come to an agreement.
23 She said no. She's --
24 Q. We have the communication here from that date.
25 A. Right.
30
1 Q. Other than this communication, do you have anywhere

2 you specifically asked for a particular day?
3 A. I believe there are others.
4 Q. Okay. Can we see them, please?
5 A. I'll look up the Family Wizard right now. Can I
6 turn on my phone?
7 THE COURT: You may.
8 THE WITNESS: Well, actually -- no, that's
9 when I hired Fred. As soon as she said no. That's why
10 I hired him. So all the communications were going
11 through him.
12 BY MS. MICHAEL:
13 Q. So now I want to direct your attention to F-2. In
14 F-2, Kathy says to you, "Jeff, you clearly told her you did
15 not care what the Judge said. I never gave you permission to
16 take her out of state. The court order gives you custody, not
17 your mother. It's not my concern if she sees your mom at all.
18 You are the parent. I never said a word to you, nor did I
19 give you permission. You don't get a court order so you can
20 dump our child at your mother for two days."
21 So she explained to you that she doesn't want
22 you dumping the child at your mother's. Correct?
23 A. I don't dump my daughter at my mother's. Where's
24 that coming from?
25 Q. That is the concern she expressed to you, though.
31
1 Correct?
2 A. It's baseless. And what --
3 Q. That is the concern that --
4 A. You can actually ask my mother when she comes here.
5 You could ask her the same question, if I ever am not there
6 with Kayden. You know, if she's ever there without me. Ever.
7 Q. This concern has come up in CCES, also. Correct?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And the two of you have been discussing it in CCES?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And isn't it true that Kathy told you in CCES that
12 the problem wasn't about you visiting your mother; the problem
13 was about you taking the child there for the entire visit?
14 A. Can you --
15 Q. Or for your entire time?
16 A. No, I don't take her there for the entire time.
17 Q. Isn't that what Kathy expressed to you in CCES?
18 A. No.
19 Q. So you're saying that in CCES, the subject has come
20 up, but Kathy hasn't explained her point of view.
21 A. She didn't, no. Actually what she said in CCES was,
22 "You could take her to your mother's."
23 And I said, "Kathy, why haven't you agreed this
24 entire time? You know, I have an attorney. We're going to
25 court. You know? You had all these opportunities to put that
32
1 in writing, you know, and to agree to it." You know? And she
2 still -- she hasn't.
3 Q. So she said that she doesn't have a problem with you
4 visiting your mother with the child. Correct?
5 A. She said -- she said, "I have no problem with you
6 taking her to see your mother."
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Right. But she never put it in writing once. You
9 know? She had all the opportunities in the world to give you
10 permission, you know, at the Master's office to agree to it.
11 And you said you had no authority to do that. So obviously
12 she hadn't given you permission at that point.
13 So that was the first I ever heard her say, "I
14 don't have a problem." That was the first time. And that was
15 over months.
16 Q. Okay. This invitation. I want to make sure we
17 understood what you said.
18 THE COURT: You're referring to Exhibit --
19 MS. MICHAEL: Exhibit F-3.
20 THE COURT: Thank you.
21 BY MS. MICHAEL:
22 Q. Kayden gave you that invitation. Correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Not Kathy.
25 A. Correct.
33
1 Q. Kathy never asked you about it.

2 A. Never.
3 Q. Kathy never once asked you to take the child to that
4 party.
5 A. No.
6 Q. Your mother was at your house for Thanksgiving,
7 wasn't she?
8 A. No.
9 (Mother's Exhibit Number 1 was marked for
10 identification.)
11 BY MS. MICHAEL:
12 Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as M-1.
13 This is a printout from the Family Wizard. The bottom of it
14 is the same conversation as what was contained in F-1.
15 Correct?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. In the top part of it, that's a message from
18 you to Kathy. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And this is in reference to Christmas. Correct?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And can you read us what it says?
23 A. "Per your message below, I will be taking Kayden to
24 my mom's for Christmas. As far as drop-offs, you can drop her
25 off at my mom's at 12 o'clock if you're in New Jersey or drop
34
1 her off at 12 o'clock in Manayunk per the order. Up to you.

2 I really don't have a preference.
3 "Also, let me know what time you want to
4 schedule or set times to Facetime with Kayden when we're on
5 vacation. Here's the website with all the information."
6 However, what I would like to point out --
7 okay? But let me -- let me -- go ahead.
8 Q. So in this message --
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. -- you instruct Kathy that one option for Christmas
11 is for her to drop Kayden off at your mother's house.
12 Correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And that is in fact what she did, isn't it?
15 A. That is what she did. But, however, I want to point
16 out that the first time that this message was viewed was
17 March 2nd, 2017. She never even got this message. She --
18 MS. MICHAEL: Ask for the admission of F-1 --
19 M-1, please.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. STANCZAK: No objection.
22 THE COURT: It's received.
23 MS. MICHAEL: Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah, the Family Wizard
25 documents when messages are read. So she never read
35
1 that until March.

2 She constantly -- she doesn't respond
3 to, you know, any of the requests that I have through
4 Family Wizard. She hasn't used it for what -- what its
5 intention was. She doesn't send me doctor's reports.
6 She doesn't send me, you know, anything, you know,
7 that's pertinent to Kayden. She uses it to actually
8 harass me and insult me. Repeatedly.
9 MS. MICHAEL: Nothing further, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Any redirect?
11 MR. STANCZAK: Just a couple questions, Your
12 Honor.
13 * * *
14 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. STANCZAK:
16 Q. Looking at F-2 -- let me just ask you this. Has the
17 mother been consistent with you about whether or not she would
18 agree to out-of-state travel with Kayden?
19 A. No.
20 Q. At one point she said, "It's not my concern whether
21 she sees her grandmother." Do you see that?
22 A. Yeah. Oh, absolutely.
23 Q. And has -- are you aware of whether or not Mother
24 through counsel has filed a contempt petition against you?
25 A. Yes. They did after we moved forward with our
36
1 order.
2 Q. And is one of the grounds for that contempt petition
3 the allegation that you took Kayden out of state without her
4 consent?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So based on all of those indications, including my
7 letter to counsel that you looked at, what is your
8 understanding as to whether or not Mother will agree to
9 out-of-state travel with Kayden?
10 A. Apparently it seems to be changing; but, you know,
11 she's never once agreed in writing to ever allow it. So she's
12 said no. So --
13 Q. And in fact, M-1 that you were just showed, the
14 Mother's response first is, "I don't agree to that. I have no
15 need to take her out of Pa"; followed by, "So yes, you can
16 notify me when you need to bring her out of state or get a
17 court order. Your choice."
18 Is that -- do you read that as a consistent
19 response on her part?
20 A. No. I mean -- I flat-out asked her if we could --
21 if I could just take her out of the state, you know, without
22 asking permission every time.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. And, you know, she said no. But then obviously
25 there's other incidents where she's taking Kayden out of the
37
1 state without my permission. You know.

2 Also, you know, she's consented to travel to
3 New Jersey when it benefits her. You know. Or attending
4 Brian's niece's birthday party. So it's very inconsistent.
5 So --
6 Q. Okay. When you dropped Kayden off at that birthday
7 party --
8 A. Oh, no, I stayed. I hung around. It was actually
9 kind of a cool birthday. I got to meet, you know, some of
10 Brian's family, and everything was great.
11 Q. Was Mother there?
12 A. Was Kayden's mother there?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. I believe that's all.
16 You said at the very end that your
17 understanding of M-1 is that the mother did not see that
18 message until March, and you referred to her response. Can
19 you just explain what you meant by that?
20 A. Yes. The Family Wizard documents that -- when the
21 message is first viewed, and it wasn't viewed until March 2nd.
22 So she obviously did not read that in -- during Christmas.
23 She took it upon herself to bring Kayden out of the state
24 without permission.
25 Although ironically -- I did send that
38
1 message -- she never read that. So it wasn't, you know,

2 agreed or anything at that point, you know, because she never
3 even viewed the message. She never got that message.
4 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. That's all, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Any recross based on that limited
6 testimony?
7 MS. MICHAEL: No.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, sir. You may
9 step down.
10 Next witness?
11 MR. STANCZAK: I call Kathleen Mancuso.
12 MR. MANCUSO: Catherine.
13 MR. STANCZAK: Catherine.
14 * * *
15 CATHERINE MANCUSO, having affirmed, was
16 examined and testified as follows:
17 * * *
18 THE COURT: If you could just speak into the
19 microphone.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay.
21 * * *
23 BY MR. STANCZAK:
24 Q. Good morning.
25 A. Good morning.
39
1 Q. State your name for the record, please.

2 A. Catherine Mancuso.
3 Q. And what is your -- do you know Kayden Mancuso?
4 A. Kayden is my granddaughter.
5 Q. Okay. And Mr. Mancuso, Jeffrey, is your son. Is
6 that correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Okay. Do you have an ongoing relationship with your
9 granddaughter?
10 A. I have a very close relationship with my
11 granddaughter.
12 Q. And when did that relationship begin?
13 A. At the day she was born. I was at the hospital.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. And it's gone through since now she's six and a
16 half.
17 Q. Okay. Since she was born, has your granddaughter
18 come to visit you at your home?
19 A. My granddaughter comes to visit me mostly every
20 weekend or -- since she was born.
21 Q. And does she sometimes stay overnight?
22 A. Oh, yes. She stays sometimes for days. Yes.
23 Q. Does either -- now, when she began visiting you,
24 were the parents still together?
25 A. Yes.
40
1 Q. Okay. And when the parents separated, did that

2 continue?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And after they separated, was it your son who would
5 bring her over?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. When that happens, does he generally stay at your
8 house?
9 A. Always.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. He never leaves Kayden.
12 Q. Okay. Now, you're aware of the fact that there was
13 a court order entered in this matter that required each parent
14 to consent to out-of-state travel for the other parent. Is
15 that correct?
16 A. Yes. Yes. I saw the order, yes.
17 Q. And has -- to your knowledge, has that been a
18 problem for you with regard to your ability to visit with
19 Kayden?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Could you explain that, please?
22 A. Well, that means that Kayden can't come to my house.
23 You know, it's -- she's been coming since she was a baby. It
24 would be very, very bad for her. And me.
25 Q. Okay.
41
1 A. And, you know, when I heard that, I just -- you

2 know, I just got so upset. Cried. And she did, too.
3 Q. When did you first hear that? Was that when the
4 order was first entered?
5 A. Yeah, when -- the first time that it got entered,
6 yeah.
7 Q. Now, are you able to travel without difficulty?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Why not?
10 A. It's a lot of difficulty. Not only to travel, but
11 to go to my son's house.
12 Q. Okay. Let's focus on traveling. What is the
13 difficulty with driving from your house to --
14 A. Well, the driving --
15 Q. Let me finish the question before you answer.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Driving from your house to your son's house, what --
18 how is that difficult?
19 A. The Schuylkill. I would have to drive on the
20 Schuylkill. And then, you know, the hills in Manayunk, you
21 have to go there. And just getting into -- to his house with
22 the steps. I have problems, medical problems, with -- I had
23 failed back surgery. I had bilateral hip replacements. And
24 even to get into his house is like six steps. I have to hold
25 on sideways to get up. And then he has no bathroom on the
42
1 first floor. And I have to use the bathroom. I can't get up

2 the steps. It's like 16 steps. And the top half doesn't have
3 a railing.
4 Q. In your son's house.
5 A. Yes. So I would have to crawl up the last few
6 steps. And then to get down the steps, it's even worse,
7 because I have balance problems. And there's no railing at
8 the top half. I just can't do it anymore, because in this
9 past six and a half years, I've aged.
10 Q. Okay. I believe you said that you have
11 accommodations for Kayden when she visits?
12 A. At my house?
13 Q. Yes.
14 A. Oh, yes. Can I tell you? Or --
15 Q. Yes, go ahead.
16 A. Okay. She has her own room. She has her own
17 bathroom. And she has clothes, she has toys. She has
18 everything that she wants there. And she's very comfortable
19 there. It's really like a second home to her. She feels
20 secure and happy. And if she can't come, she's very, very
21 sad.
22 Q. Okay. Has she discussed -- have you discussed that
23 with her or she with you?
24 A. Yeah. I was -- I just say, "Oh, you like to come to
25 Grandmom's?" And she says, "Yeah. Yeah."
43
1 "Can you tell Daddy to come to Grandmom's?"

2 "Yeah." Because she wants to come here.
3 Q. And has there been an occasion on which you were
4 able to observe Kayden when she was told she could not come
5 to your house?
6 A. I haven't been there on that occasion.
7 Q. All right.
8 A. I never heard that.
9 Q. Do you -- based on your relationship with Kayden, do
10 you believe that it is in her best interest to maintain that
11 relationship with her?
12 A. Yes.
13 MS. MICHAEL: Objection, Your Honor.
14 THE WITNESS: She loves me and I love her.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 THE WITNESS: Very much. I adore her really.
17 MR. STANCZAK: One second. That's all.
18 THE COURT: Cross-examination?
19 * * *
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION
21 BY MS. MICHAEL:
22 Q. You mentioned that when you were told that Kayden
23 couldn't come to New Jersey without Mother's permission, that
24 you cried and Kayden cried, too?
25 A. Yeah.
44
1 Q. And you said that was right after the order was
2 entered?
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. So you were with her.
5 A. No, I wasn't.
6 Q. When she was crying.
7 A. I was just told by my son.
8 Q. You went to your son's house for Thanksgiving.
9 Correct?
10 A. I went there, yes.
11 Q. And since this order has been entered in late
12 October, how many times would you say that Kayden has been to
13 your house?
14 A. I don't remember the -- was it in the fall I think?
15 September or October the order was?
16 Q. Since late October, how many times has she been to
17 your house?
18 A. Let me see. I'm trying to figure out like every
19 other --
20 Q. I'm sorry. Could you speak a little louder?
21 A. I don't remember. Maybe twice. Maybe -- December?
22 It might have been twice.
23 THE COURT: Ma'am, is it safe to say twice a
24 month? Approximately.
25 THE WITNESS: Approximately.
45
1 BY MS. MICHAEL:
2 Q. Approximately twice a month she's been to your
3 house?
4 A. Yes.
5 MS. MICHAEL: Okay. Nothing further.
6 THE COURT: Anything further?
7 MR. STANCZAK: One question.
8 * * *
10 BY MR. STANCZAK:
11 Q. You were asked about Thanksgiving. Was that at your
12 son's house or your house?
13 A. Thanksgiving. I went there in the morning just to
14 see Kayden, because she wasn't going to be able to stay the
15 whole day.
16 Q. To your son's house?
17 A. Yeah. I had to go there. And it was just a couple
18 of hours that I was there.
19 Q. Okay. Because Ms. Michael asked you if Kayden was
20 at your house for Thanksgiving, and I believe you said she
21 was.
22 A. No. Oh, no, she wasn't. She wasn't at my house for
23 Thanksgiving. No.
24 MS. MICHAEL: Objection. That is not the
25 question I asked.
46

2 MR. STANCZAK: That's all, Your Honor.
3 THE COURT: Okay. Ma'am, you may step down.
4 Do you have anything further?
5 MR. STANCZAK: Nothing further.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Call your witness.
7 MS. MICHAEL: Call Kathryn Giglio Sherlock.
8 * * *
9 KATHRYN GIGLIO SHERLOCK, having been
10 previously sworn, was examined and testified as
11 follows:
12 * * *
13 THE COURT: Please proceed.
14 * * *
16 BY MS. MICHAEL:
17 Q. Kathryn, you were here in front of Judge Trauger
18 back in October. Correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And at that time he entered an interim order.
21 Correct?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And he directed you to go through CCES.
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. During that order, did you express to him concerns
47
1 that you had about Kayden's father being able to take her out
2 of state?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what were those concerns that you raised?
5 A. Him taking her to the shore and him taking her to
6 Florida.
7 Q. Had he discussed those things with you before?
8 A. Well, we had a big issue with her birthday in
9 October and he was able to just take her to Florida, so -- and
10 he was able to take her down the shore. There's been issues
11 down there as well. It was never about his mother.
12 MR. STANCZAK: Your Honor, I'm not hearing
13 the witness very well. Could she speak up?
14 THE COURT: Please pull the microphone closer
15 and speak into it, ma'am.
16 THE WITNESS: I said there was an issue about
17 her birthday, which he took her to Florida. That was
18 my main concern, traveling wherever he would like to
19 go. And about the shore. It was never about visiting
20 his mother.
21 BY MS. MICHAEL:
22 Q. Now, when you say visiting his mother, did you make
23 a distinction between visiting and staying there longer?
24 A. Yes. I said --
25 Q. And what was that distinction?
48
1 A. I said, "If you would like to visit your mother, by

2 all means tell me which day you'd like to go visit her for a
3 couple hours here and there, whenever you'd like."
4 My problem is he spends the entire weekend from
5 Thursday till Monday at his mother's house. Which is a
6 concern to me. Because my daughter cries, as she's there for
7 so long. And if he's taking me to court for custody over and
8 over again, why are we at the mother's house? If you're
9 incapable of taking her -- taking care of her on your own, as
10 a parent. That's my concern.
11 Q. And these were all concerns that you raised to the
12 Judge at the previous hearing.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And was it your understanding that the provision in
15 the order regarding no out-of-state travel was in direct
16 response to those concerns?
17 A. I believe so.
18 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to what was
19 admitted/marked as F-3.
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. This is a birthday party invitation?
22 A. Yes. Yes.
23 Q. Did you ever request that Kayden's father be able to
24 take her to that birthday party?
25 A. Nope.
49
1 Q. Did you intend to request that --

2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you know that Kayden took that invitation with
4 her?
5 A. No. Kayden has expressed her desire to go to this
6 birthday party because she knew that it was a Ninja Warrior
7 party. She loves Ninja Warriors.
8 I knew that in the -- from the past, we've had
9 issues with birthday parties in the past, and I knew that even
10 asking him to take her would have been an issue. It was his
11 weekend. I've come to the realization that on his weekend,
12 asking him to do things in my favor have never gone over well.
13 I never asked him to take her.
14 I actually texted my sister-in-law earlier in
15 the week stating that I was not going to be at the birthday
16 party, that Kayden would not be there, not under the
17 circumstances; I'm sorry that she's going to miss it, but that
18 that's just the way that it was.
19 I didn't go to the birthday party. I wasn't
20 there. I had no idea he was even going to be there or she was
21 going to be there.
22 I got a text from my sister-in-law stating that
23 she was there around 10:30 in the morning. The birthday party
24 went from 10:30 to 12:30. Which he was at.
25 And after the birthday party, he insisted that
50
1 my sister-in-law take my daughter home with her from one to

2 five. And my sister-in-law took my daughter to her house,
3 where my daughter plays frequently. She actually hadn't been
4 there since October. Took her there. And left her at my
5 sister-in-law's till five o'clock.
6 And I know what the reason was. The Eagles
7 were on that day. He wanted an excuse to go --
8 MR. STANCZAK: Objection.
9 THE WITNESS: -- go somewhere else. He
10 wasn't with her.
12 THE COURT: Overruled. I allow latitude.
13 I'm going to allow her latitude.
14 THE WITNESS: I --
15 THE COURT: I'll give it what weight, if any,
16 I deem appropriate.
17 MS. MICHAEL: Okay.
18 THE COURT: And ma'am, please -- please slow
19 down.
20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
21 THE COURT: And please allow the court
22 reporter to get your testimony.
24 identification.)
25
51
1 BY MS. MICHAEL:
2 Q. All right. I'm going to show you what's just been
3 marked as M-2. Do you recognize this as texts from your
4 phone?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to the texts that
7 are dated December 8th, 2016, between you and Debbie Sherlock.
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And is Page 2 a specific printout of those --
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. -- texts? And the party was scheduled for
12 December 11th. Correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. So on December 8th, what did you text to the child's
15 mother?
16 A. I texted my sister-in-law saying, "Sorry Kay won't
17 be able to make it on Sunday. I wish there was something I
18 could do to change this whole situation. I know she's really
19 upset."
20 And my sister-in-law responds, "Okay. No
21 problem. I understand." That was it.
22 MS. MICHAEL: Ask for the admission of M-2.
24 MR. STANCZAK: No objection to the statement
25 that is the witness's. Any other statement I would
52
1 object to on the basis of hearsay.

2 THE COURT: What's the other statement?
3 MR. STANCZAK: The responses from the other
4 party.
5 MS. MICHAEL: "I understand."
6 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll accept M-2.
8 identification.)
9 BY MS. MICHAEL:
10 Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as M-3. Do
11 you recognize this?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. What is it?
14 A. This is a letter to the Judge after the court order
15 was entered on October 27th. This is from Jeff to Judge
16 Trauger's assistant, Nina, stating his reasons for why he
17 needs to travel outside of the state. That's really -- that's
18 what it is.
19 Q. Does this also contain Ms. DeMent's response?
20 A. Yes.
21 MS. MICHAEL: Your Honor, I just ask for the
22 admission of the exhibit, for you to read it yourself.
24 MR. STANCZAK: No.
25 THE COURT: M-3's admitted.
53
1 Anything further?
2 MS. MICHAEL: I'm sorry. What was that, Your
3 Honor?
4 THE COURT: Anything further?
5 MS. MICHAEL: Yeah.
6 BY MS. MICHAEL:
7 Q. Shortly after the order was entered, we saw an
8 exchange on the Family Wizard where Mr. Mancuso asked you just
9 for blanket permission to travel out of state without having
10 to get permission. Correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you did not agree to that. Correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Since then, has he ever asked you for a specific
15 date that he wished to travel out of the state and given you
16 specifics of his request?
17 A. No. He just goes.
18 Q. He mentioned an incident. I believe it occurred
19 after a soccer game?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Can you describe what happened that day?
22 A. That was the first weekend after the order was
23 written. We were at her soccer game. And he was screaming
24 out the -- he had her scream out the window to me, "Mommy, can
25 I go to Grandmom's house?"
54
1 And I didn't respond. I didn't say anything,

2 as I didn't think it was appropriate at all for her to be to
3 yelling out of the window talking about court orders.
4 I said, "Have a good day, Kayden," and I got in
5 my car.
6 Q. Now, at some point did you come to believe that he
7 was taking her out of state --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- without your knowledge or permission?
10 A. Yeah.
11 Q. And did you or anyone you know drive by his mother's
12 home?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Who was that?
15 A. Me and my husband; and my husband on his own.
16 Q. And then at some point did you also give your
17 daughter -- or arrange for your daughter to have a cell phone
18 and iPad, something like that?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What?
21 A. She has a cell phone that is on my husband's plan
22 that replaced the old cell phone that was on my -- the iPhone.
23 The old phone that we -- she used to communicate with him for
24 Facetime was an iPhone 3. It only worked on wifi. So we got
25 her a new phone in August. It works, and we can actually --
55
1 she takes it with her when she goes with him. She uses it to
2 Facetime him. And we can also GPS-locate her.
3 Q. So did you begin checking the GPS locater on that
4 phone?
5 A. Yes.
7 identification.)
8 BY MS. MICHAEL:
9 Q. I'm going to show you what has been marked as M-4.
10 Can you explain to us what that is?
11 A. This is almost every single weekend that Jeff's ever
12 had Kayden with him.
13 Q. All right. Slow down. Specifically, literally,
14 what are we looking at here?
15 A. We're literally looking at every day that Kayden is
16 in Jeff's custody.
17 Q. Kathryn? You can't look at a day.
18 A. Okay. I'm sorry.
19 Q. It's a picture. Correct?
20 A. It's a picture.
21 Q. Okay. Where did that picture come from?
22 A. It is taken from a GPS "Find My iPhone" locater on
23 our -- on my husband's phone.
24 Q. Okay. And it shows a map.
25 A. Yes.
56
1 Q. And it shows where the phone ends up.

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you tell me what dates and times you printed
4 out?
5 A. These are time-stamped from the actual time that we
6 located.
7 Q. Okay. And can you go through them and tell us what
8 those are?
9 A. This is from last Sunday at 8:45 p.m. This is
10 Kayden's phone, which is usually in her book bag. It's
11 located --
12 Q. And where was Kayden's phone?
13 A. Mount Laurel.
14 Q. And that was Sunday evening at what time?
15 A. 8:45 p.m.
16 Q. Okay.
17 A. And there's one from Sunday at 12:51 p.m.
18 Q. Same day?
19 A. Same day.
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. Earlier in the day. Same location.
22 There's one from Friday. Saturday we had
23 spoken to Kayden. We knew she was in Philadelphia. She had
24 Facetimed us. She was with her father at his Manayunk
25 residence.
57
1 Friday we had a CCES hearing, and the phone was

2 in Starbucks on -- I'm sorry. This is Friday afternoon. She
3 was on Ardmore Avenue. And that's near Manayunk. That was at
4 5:48 p.m. Friday afternoon. Earlier that day, Jeff and I had
5 a conference at CCES at one o'clock.
6 At 9:44 a.m., the phone was located at
7 Starbucks in Yardley. Should have been with her, but --
8 usually it's in her book bag. I'm assuming he had it with him
9 at Starbucks, because she wasn't at Starbucks. She was at
10 school.
11 Thursday at 7:26 p.m., she was in Mount Laurel.
12 That was last weekend.
13 February 19th, 7:29 p.m., she was in Mount
14 Laurel.
15 February 16th, 9:56 p.m., she was in Mount
16 Laurel.
17 February 2nd, 6:22 p.m., she was in Mount
18 Laurel.
19 January 22nd, 8:09 p.m., she was in Mount
20 Laurel.
21 January 21st, 4:30 p.m., she was in Mount
22 Laurel.
23 January 20th, 6:11 p.m., she was in Mount
24 Laurel.
25 January 19th, 9:42 p.m., she was in Mount
58
1 Laurel.
2 Q. And prior to that, you hadn't been tracking her.
3 A. Prior to that we had the pictures from November and
4 all the other dates that I kept a record of, knowing that she
5 was there.
6 I have some pictures, but prior to that there
7 was -- I knew she was there like Christmas. I had talked to
8 her on the phone before he left for his vacation. She was at
9 his mother's house. I had dropped her off for Christmas
10 because she had told me to do so, and I had known that she was
11 going -- they were going to be in New Jersey. It did not
12 benefit me in any way, shape or form.
13 MS. MICHAEL: Ask for the admission of -- is
14 this M-3 or M-4?
15 MINUTE CLERK: That is M-4.
16 MS. MICHAEL: Four.
17 MINUTE CLERK: Is it not marked?
18 MS. MICHAEL: It must have gotten out of
19 order. Excuse me a second while I figure it out.
20 M-4. Ask for the admission M-4.
22 MR. STANCZAK: Well, I don't think there was
23 a foundation laid here as to -- the testimony was that
24 these documents purportedly prove where the child was
25 on given dates and times, as she admitted on one
59
1 occasion that the phone was not with the child. The
2 only thing this shows is where a telephone was, not
3 necessarily the child was.
4 THE COURT: With that limitation, do you
5 agree with that?
6 MS. MICHAEL: Sure.
7 THE WITNESS: I can answer that.
8 MR. STANCZAK: Yes. That's the objection.
9 MS. MICHAEL: Yes, Your Honor. It proves
10 where the phone is and --
11 THE COURT: I will accept it for the limited
12 purpose of showing where that particular cell phone
13 was.
14 BY MS. MICHAEL:
15 Q. Okay. There have been four CCES meetings so far.
16 Correct?
17 A. Three. Two.
18 Q. One you alone, one him alone.
19 A. Three.
20 Q. One joint. Three so far.
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And the fourth one is scheduled for next week.
23 Correct?
24 A. March 16th.
25 Q. All right. And has the subject of this restriction
60
1 come up during CCES?

2 A. Yes. It came up last week.
3 Q. And did you discuss your rationale for having a
4 problem at least in the interim --
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. -- with the out-of-state travel provision?
7 A. Yes. I said if he would like to go visit your
8 mother, let me know what day, what time. All he needs to do
9 is notify us.
10 He said, "No, I'm not going to do that. We can
11 go to court so I don't have to go through this with you and
12 get a court order."
13 I said, "You've been at your mother's every
14 single weekend since October," and he said, "No, I haven't."
15 It's never been a problem with his mother. I
16 like the lady. It's about him doing whatever he wants and --
17 regardless of the court order.
18 MS. MICHAEL: Nothing further, Your Honor.
20 * * *
21 CROSS-EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. STANCZAK:
23 Q. It's Ms. Sherlock. Right?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. You said that you never had a problem with his
61
1 mother, but you stated in Family wizard communication it is

2 not your concern whether she sees his mother or not. Correct?
3 A. It's not my concern.
4 Q. Okay.
5 A. Okay? That's not an -- I don't think that -- that's
6 not the problem with his mother. Our custody battle isn't
7 about me, him and his mother.
8 Q. Well, that was communication to the father. Is that
9 correct?
10 A. Right. It's not my concern. It's not. It has
11 nothing to do with his mom.
12 Q. So you have no -- no objection -- your testimony is
13 you have absolutely no objection to Father bringing Kayden to
14 his mother's house for visits.
15 A. For visits. For five week -- five nights over long
16 stays I have a problem with. Because my daughter has
17 expressed many times her desire -- desire not to be away from
18 our house for five days.
19 MR. STANCZAK: Your Honor, I object to the
20 hearsay.
22 THE WITNESS: That's the whole problem here.
23 BY MR. STANCZAK:
24 Q. So -- and I believe your counsel said that you
25 object to what you con -- what you would call "dumping
62
1 Kayden" --
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. -- at his mother's? When did that occur?
4 A. Her entire life.
5 Q. Well, specific dates from --
6 A. Specific dates? From January -- from the time she
7 was born until now. He has always brought her to his mother's
8 house to leave her there in her care. Or to -- to take off
9 the care -- take away the responsibility of what he has to do.
10 He doesn't pack her lunch. He doesn't -- he doesn't buy her
11 clothes. His mother does everything.
12 Q. Okay. Let's -- let's just stick to the question.
13 A. I answered the question.
14 Q. Since the entry of the interim order, let's focus on
15 that period of time, have you ever been to the mother's house
16 when Kayden was visiting there?
17 A. Why would I go there?
18 Q. The answer is no?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you don't know whether or not Kayden has been at
21 the mother's house without the father. Is that correct? Yes
22 or no.
23 A. Wait. What's the question?
24 Q. You do not know whether or not Kayden was left at
25 the mother's house -- at the grandmother's house without the
63
1 father staying there with her since the entry of the interim
2 order. Is that correct?
3 A. Can I prove it? No.
4 Q. You don't know that, do you?
5 A. I do not know that. How am I supposed to know that?
6 Q. And your testimony is that as long as that doesn't
7 happen, if Father is with her and doesn't leave her there, you
8 have no objection to those visits.
9 A. Day visits. Why do we have to sleep at the -- in
10 the 55-plus community every single weekend? I don't
11 understand it. That's what I don't get. My daughter has
12 expressed her desire many times not to be taken out of her
13 house for five days straight. She cries. I have no objection
14 to him visiting with his mother.
15 Q. When does he have custody for five days straight?
16 A. Thursday till Monday. Thursday, Friday, Saturday,
17 Sunday, till Monday morning.
18 Q. On Thursday he picks her up at school. Is that
19 correct?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. Friday she's in school.
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. So she doesn't go to the grandmother's house from
24 Thursday to Friday.
25 A. Yes, she does. She sleeps there.
64
1 Q. How do you know that?

2 A. I -- I track her. And he will tell you because it's
3 closer. Which he just did. And they're there every single
4 weekend since this order has been written. Minus maybe one.
5 Q. Now, you mentioned -- so your objection is sleeping
6 over.
7 A. My objection is --
8 Q. Kayden sleeping over at the house.
9 A. I want -- my daughter doesn't want to be out of her
10 house with her brother and her family, sleeping between
11 Manayunk and Mount Laurel on school nights, or wherever the
12 heck she is. That's my objection. I don't think it's normal
13 for a child to be bounced back and forth to three different
14 houses. Especially when she's in school. It's affecting her.
15 I promise you. We will see that in CCES.
16 Q. So speaking of CCES, do you think that's an
17 important process?
18 A. I do.
19 Q. When you appeared in court here in October, you were
20 told to begin that process immediately, were you not?
21 A. I was.
22 Q. And you didn't do that. You didn't begin it until
23 November.
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. Why did you delay --
65
1 A. Why did I not do that? On November 5th of 2016, I

2 injured my knee. I was unable to walk for two months. And in
3 fact I was out of work for two months from November 5th till
4 January 9th. And I'm also 25 weeks pregnant right now. I see
5 my high-risk maternity -- maternal field medicine doctor every
6 two weeks. I was unable to walk. I was unable to get to
7 Doylestown to fill out the paperwork. I was also out of work
8 for two months unpaid and did not have the money to obtain
9 another lawyer and a retainer.
10 So that's why it took me 28 days from the time
11 that the order was written to actually get CCES in place.
12 Q. Well, is there any reason you didn't -- on the day
13 you were here in court --
14 A. Because I ran out of this courtroom crying
15 hysterically, and I was in no means or way to go downstairs
16 and sign more papers. It was the worst day of my life that
17 day.
18 Q. So between that and November, you're saying you were
19 too ill or --
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. -- otherwise indisposed to --
22 A. To drive myself, which I couldn't drive. It's my
23 right leg. I was unable to walk, sir, for over six weeks.
24 Q. Did you contact the Master's office about that?
25 A. Yes, I did.
66
1 Q. When?
2 A. I got letters from that -- that one woman, whatever
3 her name is, at home. And yes, I did contact her.
4 Q. You --
5 A. I have letters at home.
6 Q. You contacted the Master's office.
7 A. I contacted the lady in charge and she sent me a
8 letter. I don't have the letter on me. I'm sure we --
9 there's a record of it somewhere. I did contact her.
10 Q. All right. Now, do you have M-2 in front of you?
11 And just to be clear, your testimony focused on the second
12 page of this document?
13 A. The first page is only to state that they're to
14 prove that it was written on December 8th. There's no way to
15 screen-shot or show what time these text messages are written.
16 So that's why I had to show that they correspond to the one
17 below it on this -- on the date that I said that I sent it.
18 Q. So -- and you were texting your sister. Is that
19 correct?
20 A. My sister-in-law.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. Whose daughter's party it was.
23 Q. You're saying that Kayden was not able to attend
24 that party on the 11th?
25 A. I was telling her that she wasn't going to be there
67
1 because I had not had any communication with Jeff. I'm trying
2 to tell her we've had issues in the past over birthday
3 parties. I was telling her she wasn't going to be there.
4 Because I never asked him to take her.
5 Q. And F-3 is the invitation to the party. Is that
6 correct?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Did Kayden have access to that invitation?
9 A. Yes. All of our invitations are on the
10 refrigerator.
11 Q. And she brought it to --
12 A. She brought it with her, yes.
13 Q. Okay. Wait till my question's finished before you
14 answer, please.
15 So she did go to the party. Right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Okay. And Mr. Mancuso did come to that party to
18 pick her up. Is that correct?
19 A. From what I understand. I wasn't there, but yes.
20 Q. Are you testifying -- is it your testimony here
21 today that you have no objection to consenting to visits by
22 Kayden with Mr. Mancuso's relatives in New Jersey?
23 A. Nope. That's not my issue. It never has been my
24 issue. It's not the matter of him visiting his mother. It's
25 when he takes her to Florida or when he takes her down the
68
1 shore. That's where the out-of-state travel begins.

2 And he needs to -- you know, I would like to
3 know where my kid is. Especially with someone like him.
4 Q. If you had notice of where she was going, you would
5 know that. Right? If the order required that each parent
6 give the other notice of out-of-state travel, the times and
7 dates, and then provide access to the child by telephone --
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. -- wouldn't that satisfy your concerns?
10 A. Sure.
11 MR. STANCZAK: That's all, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Any redirect?
13 * * *
15 BY MS. MICHAEL:
16 Q. The interim order that the Judge entered -- I'm
17 going to show the order.
18 MR. STANCZAK: Okay.
19 MS. MICHAEL: Okay?
20 BY MS. MICHAEL:
21 Q. Can you read Paragraph 4 of the interim order?
22 A. "Parties shall obtain a custody evaluation either
23 privately or through Court Conciliation and Evaluation
24 Services by contacting the Family Master's Office. Father
25 shall be responsible for the cost of CCES."
69
1 Q. Was there a problem with the start of CCES because

2 of the money?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And what was that problem?
5 A. Someone didn't want to pay.
7 BY MS. MICHAEL:
8 Q. Did you bring it up to the evaluator --
10 BY MS. MICHAEL:
11 Q. -- that Mr. Mancuso was --
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. -- ordered to pay? And what was Mr. Mancuso's
14 response?
15 A. I don't know. That -- the evaluator didn't believe
16 me. That's where it started. The evaluator said that he
17 didn't ever hear of that.
18 MR. STANCZAK: Objection, Your Honor.
19 Hearsay.
20 THE COURT: Sustained.
21 THE WITNESS: You can ask the evaluator.
22 BY MS. MICHAEL:
23 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Mancuso acknowledge that
24 he was directed to pay for CCES?
25 A. Yes.
70
1 Q. Did you have to show the order?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Did Mr. Mancuso acknowledge it before you had to
4 show the order?
5 A. No.
6 MS. MICHAEL: Thank you. Nothing further,
7 Your Honor.
8 MR. STANCZAK: Just one follow-up on that,
9 Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Go ahead.
11 * * *
12 RECROSS-EXAMINATION
13 BY MR. STANCZAK:
14 Q. When you were in court on the day that the interim
15 order was entered, you were not ordered to pay any of the
16 costs other than a 35-dollar fee. Is that correct?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. So that was the only money concern that you
19 had. Is that right? With regard to the CCES process.
20 A. I didn't have a concern with the money. It was-- it
21 was -- from what the evaluator told me, is that someone was
22 having hardships and was unable to pay at the time.
23 MR. STANCZAK: Object -- I'm going to object
24 to that.
25 THE WITNESS: That's what he said.
71
1 MR. STANCZAK: That's all.

3 Nothing further? You may step down.
4 Do you have any further witnesses?
5 MS. MICHAEL: Call Brian Sherlock, Your
6 Honor.
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 * * *
9 BRIAN SHERLOCK, having been duly
10 sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
11 * * *
12 THE COURT: Please proceed.
13 * * *
15 BY MS. MICHAEL:
16 Q. Mr. Sherlock, you are married to Kathryn. Correct?
17 A. Yep.
18 Q. So that would make you Kayden's stepfather?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. Are you familiar with the location of Mr. Mancuso's
21 mother's house?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where's it at?
24 A. It's in Mount Laurel, New Jersey.
25 Q. Since the entry of the interim order in late
72
1 October, have you ever driven past that home?

2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Can you estimate for me how many times you've done
4 that?
5 A. Two or three times.
6 Q. And were these at times when Mr. Mancuso had custody
7 of Kayden?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Can you tell us what you observed?
10 A. One time I saw Kayden getting out of either his car
11 or her -- her grandmother's car, and just running up to her
12 apartment.
13 Another time I just -- you know, you see his
14 car parked there.
15 Q. When you saw them getting out of the car --
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. -- what was the car? Do you recall what car it was?
18 A. I'm not clear. It was either her mother -- his
19 mother's or his.
20 Q. Okay. Was Kayden in the car?
21 A. I saw her get out. I saw her get in and get like
22 groceries and bags out, and then come out and then run -- you
23 know, run up to the apartment.
24 Q. Okay. And did you see Mrs. Mancuso, Jeff's mother?
25 A. Yes.
73
1 Q. Okay. And where was she?

2 A. She was getting out of the car.
3 (Mother's Exhibit numbers 5 and 6 were
4 marked for identification.)
5 BY MS. MICHAEL:
6 Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as M-5 and
7 M-6.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. I'm going to start with M-5. Can you tell us what
10 that is?
11 A. That is -- I believe it was a rental car or some
12 sort of car that Kayden's father was using at the time.
13 Q. Okay. So Jeff was driving this car.
14 A. Yes, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And did you take this picture of the car?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. Okay. And in the background, you can see a house?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And whose house is that?
20 A. That's the -- that's the end unit there of the
21 condos where Jeff's mother lives.
22 Q. Okay. And when did you take this picture?
23 A. November 27, 2016.
24 Q. At what time?
25 A. 5:54 p.m.
74
1 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to direct your attention to

2 M-6.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. We have one, two, three pages here.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. What's the first page of M-6?
7 A. It's just a map, aerial overview of where Kayden's
8 phone is located, and that's in Mount Laurel, New Jersey, at
9 Jeff's mother's house.
10 Q. On January 5th at what time?
11 A. On January 5th at 4:29 p.m.
12 Q. And the second page --
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. -- is a picture.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Can you tell is what that is?
17 A. That's a picture of -- you can see Kayden just about
18 at the front door of her grandmother's house.
19 Q. Okay. So is this --
20 A. Yeah, that's Kayden. And her grandmother is -- it's
21 not the greatest picture, but you can -- you can see her
22 probably hidden behind the pole.
23 Q. You personally were there and witnessed this.
24 A. I did.
25 Q. Okay. And are you the one who took this picture?
75
1 A. I did.
2 Q. Okay. And the next page, what's that a picture of?
3 A. That's Jeff's car.
4 Q. And where is it at?
5 A. In Mount Laurel. January 5th, 6:26 p.m.
6 Q. And did you take that picture?
7 A. I took that picture.
8 Q. And is this a true and accurate representation of
9 the photographs that you took?
10 A. Yes.
11 MS. MICHAEL: Ask for the admission of M-5
12 and M-6.
14 MR. STANCZAK: No. I'll cross-examine.
15 THE COURT: All right. They're admitted.
16 BY MS. MICHAEL:
17 Q. Were there other occasions when you've driven by?
18 A. There may have been another time. But those --
19 those were two I remember. But there may have been another
20 time.
21 MS. MICHAEL: Okay. Nothing further, Your
22 Honor.
24 * * *
25
76
1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. STANCZAK:
3 Q. Good morning, Mr. Sherlock.
4 A. Hi.
5 Q. How are you? Now, you are married to the mother.
6 Right? Of the child.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. How long have you been married?
9 A. September. September 2016.
10 Q. How long have you been together? Did you live
11 together before?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. For how long?
14 A. We were together -- we've been together for three,
15 four years.
16 Q. And you said that you would -- on two occasions I
17 believe you went -- you drove past the mother's --
18 grandmother's house, I'm sorry, Mount Laurel, and took these
19 photographs?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. Why did you do that?
22 A. Just to see if Kayden was there.
23 Q. Who asked you to do that?
24 A. Nobody.
25 Q. Nobody asked you to do that?
77
1 A. No.
2 Q. Okay. You did it totally on your own.
3 A. Yeah.
4 Q. Now, M-5 is a photograph of what you said was a
5 rental car. Is that right?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. How do you know that?
8 A. It was just an assumption.
9 Q. So you don't know that.
10 A. I don't know. I know he was driving it.
11 Q. Okay. Now, it's not Mr. Mancuso's car, is it?
12 A. I don't know.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I believe you said on that occasion
14 you -- did you see Kayden?
15 A. I did see Kayden.
16 Q. And you say you saw her going from the car into the
17 house.
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. How long did that observation take?
20 A. I mean I -- I was there for ten minutes.
21 Q. So you drove to the house for ten minutes. How did
22 you determine when it was you would go to the house?
23 A. I -- I'm not following you.
24 Q. What made you decide to drive to the house at that
25 particular time?
78
1 A. Because I figured she'd be home from school and I

2 was figuring that Jeff was taking her there.
3 Q. So you saw Kayden run into the house.
4 A. Oh, yeah.
5 Q. Did you see Mr. Mancuso?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And when you left, Mr. Mancuso -- was
8 Mr. Mancuso still there?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Okay. So M-6 is a GPS -- Page 1 is a GPS screen
11 shot. Is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Basically? And it shows the location of Kayden's
14 phone at that point in time.
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And Page 2 again is a photo -- it's obscured. Would
17 you agree with that?
18 A. It's not in high def.
19 Q. And there is an image -- well, could be a person by
20 the door. And how long did you observe on that occasion?
21 A. I was -- I was there sitting in my car for about ten
22 minutes. I saw them --
23 Q. Ten minutes.
24 A. Yeah.
25 Q. And then you left.
79
1 A. And then I left after all three of them went into

2 the house.
3 Q. So you have no knowledge of what happened at the
4 grandmother's house other than those ten-minute periods of
5 time on those two occasions.
6 A. Yeah.
7 Q. That's correct.
8 A. That is correct.
9 MR. STANCZAK: That's all.
10 THE COURT: Sir, I think you testified -- I
11 just want to be clear. You said that this picture was
12 taken because you thought Kayden would be home from
13 school?
14 THE WITNESS: Which one was that?
15 THE COURT: M-5.
16 THE WITNESS: No, that was -- that one was --
17 that one -- I guess that was right after Thanksgiving.
18 That weekend?
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 THE WITNESS: That Friday maybe?
21 THE COURT: All right. So M-5 was taken
22 Thanksgiving weekend?
24 THE COURT: All right. And were you there by
25 yourself in the car?
80
1 THE WITNESS: On which occasion?

2 THE COURT: The first one.
3 THE WITNESS: No, I think Kathy was with me.
4 THE COURT: Okay. And the January 5th
5 pictures?
6 THE WITNESS: I was by myself.
7 THE COURT: M-6?
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Okay. And when was this in the
10 week?
11 THE WITNESS: It was the middle -- it was
12 Thursday.
13 THE COURT: It was a Thursday?
14 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean I'd have to look
15 at a calendar. But I mean --
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
18 THE COURT: And did you -- where do you live?
19 THE WITNESS: I live with Kathy in Langhorne.
20 THE COURT: Okay. And just --
21 THE WITNESS: I work in South Jersey.
22 THE COURT: So do you go by Grandmother's
23 house?
24 THE WITNESS: Not directly. But I go close
25 by to get onto 295 to go home.
81
1 THE COURT: Okay. So that's the reason why

2 you would have to be in the vicinity.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. I have nothing
5 further. So you may step down, sir.
6 Any further testimony?
8 THE COURT: Okay. I don't believe I need
9 argument. I will take all -- unless -- do either
10 counsel insist on making argument?
11 MR. STANCZAK: No, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: Okay. Let me take the exhibits
14 with me and attempt to reach a decision, and I'll come
15 back and announce that to the parties. We're in recess
16 until then.
17 MS. MICHAEL: Until what time, Your Honor? I
18 didn't --
19 THE COURT: Well, I will try to reach a
20 decision in the next five, ten minutes, and come out
21 and announce it.
22 MS. MICHAEL: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: You're welcome.
24 (Court in recess.)
25 * * *
82
1 (Court in session.)
2 THE COURT: The parties are participating in
3 CCES, and it's very apparent to me after this hearing
4 that we need the guidance of conciliation -- or a
5 counselor to tell the Court what's in the best interest
6 of the child moving forward as far as custody is
7 concerned.
8 With respect to my interim order and the
9 communications that went back and forth, one exhibit
10 was -- Exhibit M-3, was communication to chambers from
11 Father about Paragraph 17 shortly after it was entered.
12 I will note that that exhibit included
13 an attachment, which I'm going to hand to counsel,
14 which is "Parental Conflict and Its Effect on
15 Children." I don't know if that was shared, if I
16 previously gave that to the parties, but it was in fact
17 included in the attachment, and I give that to both of
18 you.
19 Per my prior order, which is an interim
20 order, I granted Father custody every other weekend
21 from Thursday after school to Monday a.m. By the
22 Court's reckoning, that's approximately three and a
23 half days every two weeks, or seven days per month.
24 Plus on the week that he did not have any contact with
25 his daughter, there would be one 15-minute Facetime.
83
1 Paragraph 17 that was addressed in my

2 court order was written to specifically address the
3 Florida situation and Mother's concern about that.
4 Unfortunately I assumed that the parties would interact
5 reasonably about interpretation of my order and would
6 not necessarily use Paragraph 17 beyond that scope or
7 effect, and I'm sorry that my order wasn't clearer.
8 I'm not encouraged by the tone of some
9 of the e-mails that were sent back and forth and how my
10 court order, that was entered in good faith, in the
11 best possible way that I could do it under the
12 circumstances, how the parties might interpret it or
13 use it as a sword and not a way to help you mend your
14 relationship with each other.
15 Specifically I'm referring to F-1, F-2.
16 And I'm not going to read the details of those e-mails.
17 In conclusion, I'm going to deny
18 Mother's petition for contempt of the custody order.
19 With respect to Father's motion to
20 approve out-of-state travel, what I will do is I'm
21 going to enter an amended interim order, which will
22 clarify that Pennsylvania and New Jersey will be
23 excluded from. So 17 will read in the future, "Neither
24 party may leave the State of Pennsylvania or New Jersey
25 with the child without either an agreement between the
84
1 parties or a court order."

2 So that will cut both ways. So if you
3 have a vacation planned or anything else that's going
4 to take you outside of Pennsylvania or New Jersey, it
5 will need the consent of the other party or it will
6 need a court order.
7 It would be my hope that both of you
8 could agree to let your daughter go to Disney World or
9 to see somebody in New England or the Mid-Atlantic
10 states and provide notice and communication to each
11 other. But I'm not very encouraged that that may
12 happen. So that it may be that until I enter a final
13 custody order, all of your travels and communications
14 with your daughter, including vacations, are limited to
15 Pennsylvania or New Jersey.
16 It's up to you guys. I'm not going to
17 get into that. I'm going to wait till we have a CCES
18 evaluation to make a final decision if the parents
19 cannot make a decision among themselves as to what's in
20 the best interest of their daughter.
21 It's apparent to me that your daughter
22 has a relationship with her grandmother. I would like
23 to facilitate that or encourage that. It's also
24 apparent to me that she has a relationship with your
25 side of the family and your new husband's, who's in New
85
1 Jersey. I'd like to facilitate that, also. I think

2 that the broader community of knowing Mother or
3 Father's family, relatives, et cetera, is not a bad
4 thing, but it's a healthy thing.
5 So I am not going to at this time -- I
6 would say that my -- the terms of my order benefit both
7 of you. So that you can visit your relatives; you
8 don't have to tell him. You can visit your mother; you
9 don't have to tell her. Okay? So that will be the
10 order of the Court.
11 I would encourage both parties to again
12 review what I've handed you; because if you don't get
13 to a point where you can communicate with each other
14 beyond anger or resentment or what-have-you, you will
15 have an adverse effect on your daughter. She's at a
16 young age of six and a half, seven. How you interact
17 with each other, she'll see that. Okay?
18 For whatever reason, you had a child
19 together. That doesn't -- that's going to stay the
20 same for the rest of the time that your daughter is on
21 this earth. So graduations, maybe college, maybe
22 weddings or funerals.
23 I can't make you get along. I can just
24 tell you that you need to get past any personal
25 animosity you have to each other and deal with each
86
1 other in more of a business-type transaction so you can

2 raise the best possible human being you can, or child.
3 All right?
4 So from the Court's perspective, you
5 need to go through CCES. You need to participate in
6 that process in good faith. You need to be able to
7 talk to each other or through your counsel about how to
8 get to the best joint custody order that you can that's
9 in the best interest of your daughter, and put her
10 needs first when it comes to this particular process.
11 That's the order of the Court. Thank
12 you.
13 MR. STANCZAK: Thank you, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Thank you.
15 (Proceedings concluded.)
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
87
CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify that the proceedings,

evidence, and rulings are contained fully and
accurately in the notes taken by me in the trial of
the above cause, and that this copy is a correct
transcript of the same.
______________________________
Richele Geyer Voice, RMR
Official Court Reporter
DATED: ___________
The foregoing record of the proceedings

upon the trial of the above cause is hereby approved
and directed to be filed.
______________________________
Jeffrey G. Trauger, J.
DATED: ____________

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IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF BUCKS COUNTY, PA

FAMILY COURT DIVISION

M-1 12-23-16 Family Wizard correspondence 33

1 (Both parties were present and represented

1 THE COURT: Are there any other persons in

1 agreed to it. And then I guess she fired her attorney or

1 pretty much every weekend, whether it be the shore or, you

1 THE WITNESS: "Can we go to Mam-mom's?"

1 permission through Family Wizard. Is that correct?

1 And then I respond.

1 get his exhibits straight. Let me make sure that the

1 She says, "I don't agree to that. I

1 MR. STANCZAK: Okay. And F-2 I believe --

1 THE COURT: That's not the one I have.

1 MS. MICHAEL: I would ask before we do

1 Q. This is the e-mail in which it is reflected that you

1 sure. F-1 is how many pages?

1 obviously me being her dad, I, you know, didn't want to

1 THE COURT: F-3 is admitted.

1 A. I believe Brian's whole family does.

1 THE COURT: Cross-examination.

1 MS. MICHAEL: Sure.

1 out of state on a particular day after the October exchange

1 Q. Other than this communication, do you have anywhere

1 Q. Kathy never asked you about it.

1 her off at 12 o'clock in Manayunk per the order. Up to you.

1 that until March.

1 state without my permission. You know.

1 message -- she never read that. So it wasn't, you know,

1 Q. State your name for the record, please.

1 Q. Okay. And when the parents separated, did that

1 A. And, you know, when I heard that, I just -- you

1 first floor. And I have to use the bathroom. I can't get up

1 "Can you tell Daddy to come to Grandmom's?"

1 THE COURT: Overruled.

1 A. I said, "If you would like to visit your mother, by

1 Q. Did you intend to request that --

1 my sister-in-law take my daughter home with her from one to

1 object to on the basis of hearsay.

1 And I didn't respond. I didn't say anything,

1 Q. And it shows where the phone ends up.

1 Friday we had a CCES hearing, and the phone was

1 come up during CCES?

1 mother, but you stated in Family wizard communication it is

1 Q. How do you know that?

1 A. Why did I not do that? On November 5th of 2016, I

1 shore. That's where the out-of-state travel begins.

1 Q. Was there a problem with the start of CCES because

1 Q. Did you have to show the order?

1 MR. STANCZAK: That's all.

1 October, have you ever driven past that home?

1 Q. Okay. And where was she?

1 Q. Okay. Now I'm going to direct your attention to

1 A. Because I figured she'd be home from school and I

1 A. And then I left after all three of them went into

1 THE WITNESS: On which occasion?

1 THE COURT: Okay. So that's the reason why

1 Paragraph 17 that was addressed in my

1 parties or a court order."