16/4/2017 Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4 Times The Impact On Business Results As Individual'

Dan Schawbel Under 30

I interview business leaders, celebrities and authors.

LEADERSHIP 4/05/2017 @ 8:00AM 2.758 views

Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4

Times The Impact On Business
Results As Individual'

Dave Ulrich

I spoke to David Ulrich, the author of Victory

Through Organization: Why the War for Talent
is Failing Your Company and What You Can Do
About It, about the shift from individual
development to organizational needs, which HR
competencies impact key outcomes, the HR jobs
that will be eliminated, the employee experience
and the most interested results from a major
survey he is releasing with the book.

Ulrich is the Rensis Likert Professor at the Ross

School of Business, University of Michigan and a
partner at the RBL Group, a consulting firm
focused on helping organizations and leaders
deliver value. He has published over 200 articles
and book chapters and over 25 books. He edited
Human Resource Management 1990­1999,
served on editorial board of 4 Journals, on the
Board of Directors for Herman Miller, and Board
of Trustees at Southern Virginia University, and
is a Fellow in the National Academy of Human

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschawbel/2017/04/05/dave­ulrich­organization­has­4x­the­impact­on­business­results­as­individual/print/ 1/6
16/4/2017 Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4 Times The Impact On Business Results As Individual'

Resources. In addition, he is listed as a Thinkers

50 management thought leader and won
the Lifetime Achievement Award from HR
Magazine for being the “father of modern human
resources.”

Watch on Forbes:

Dan Schawbel: Can you explain the

importance of shifting from individual
development to focusing on organizational
needs? Why is it important to make this shift
now?

Dave Ulrich: In the last 20 years, the war for

talent has raged with a legitimate focus on
bringing the right talent into, moving them
through, and removing them from the
organization. While the concepts of organization
capability (teams, culture, systems) have been
present, they have been in the background of the
talent agenda. When we tested the relative
impact of individual competence (talent) and
organization capability (culture, systems) on
business performance with 1200 businesses and
32,000 individuals, we were somewhat surprised
that the organization had four times the impact
on business results. We explored why thinking
should shift from war for talent to victory
through organization.

First, in a world of increasing complexity and

change (VUCA), no single individual has the
capacity to make informed decisions; if it takes a
village to raise a child; it takes an organization to
respond to change. Second, external stakeholders
(customers, investors, communities) have create
interactions with the organization more than the
people. People may move, but organizations
create sustainable relationships. Third, there is
an individual malaise as people seek to finding
settings where they can find meaning and
purpose. Organizations can become that setting.
When people find meaning from work (see book
Why of Work), they are more productive. So, the

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschawbel/2017/04/05/dave­ulrich­organization­has­4x­the­impact­on­business­results­as­individual/print/ 2/6
16/4/2017 Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4 Times The Impact On Business Results As Individual'

whole (organization or team) is more important

than the parts (individual talent) in today’s
changing business context.

Schawbel: What competences do HR

professionals require to drive business results?

Subscribe To The Forbes Careers

Newsletter
Sign up here to get top career advice delivered straight to
your inbox every week.

Ulrich: We are less interested in HR

competencies and more interested in which HR
competencies impact key outcomes. We explored
three outcomes. First, for HR professionals to be
seen as personally effective (i.e., to get invited to
the table of business discussion), they need to be
credible activists who build trust and act
proactively. Second, for HR professionals to
serve external stakeholders (customers,
investors, communities), they need to be
strategic positioners who not only know the
business but can help the business win in its
chose marketplace. Third, for HR professionals
to deliver business results (a six item scale), they
need to be paradox navigators. Navigating
paradox means accepting, exploring, and dealing
with the inevitable tensions in a business. They
have to help the business be both short and long
term, top/down and bottom/up, global and local,
divergent and convergent, strategic and
operational, etc. By navigating these paradoxes,
organizations are more able to respond to the
demands of change in today’s business context.

Schawbel: Which HR jobs will be eliminated

through automation in the future and how can
professionals gain the right companies to stay
relevant and employed?

Ulrich: Technology allows information to shape

behavior. Through artificial intelligence, smart
machines, robots, and other technology
advances, most of the administrative heritage of
HR will be automated. Many firms went to
service centers (1­800­HR help line) for
administrative efficiency; now these service
centers will likely be replaced with robots and/or
self service. HR work that is routine, standard,
and repetitive can likely be automated. HR
professionals will become more critical to offer

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschawbel/2017/04/05/dave­ulrich­organization­has­4x­the­impact­on­business­results­as­individual/print/ 3/6
16/4/2017 Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4 Times The Impact On Business Results As Individual'

judgment about talent, leadership, and

organization, but the administrative HR
processes will not require human judgment.

Schawbel: After analyzing the results from over

30,000 worldwide surveys, what were some of
the most interesting or surprising results?

Ulrich: First, we were surprised that the

organization had 4 times the impact of
individuals on business results and stakeholder
value. We have written for decades about
“organization capability” (book published in
1990), but we have not had evidence of the value
created by organization. The increased attention
to culture and eco systems are legitimate new
areas of inquiry.

Second, we were somewhat surprised that

different HR competencies led to different
outcomes. What it takes to get invited to a
business discussion is not what it takes to add
value to that discussion.

Third, the centrality of the paradox navigator

impact on business results is fascinating. We
think that the personal skill of paradox
navigation has enormous implications not only
for HR professionals but all business leaders.
Leaders who can manage tension without
contention, who can disagree without being
disagreeable, who can appropriate converge and
diverge, and who can zoom out and zoom in will
be more effective.

Finally, we looked at the evolution of HR

competencies over 30 years (7 rounds of research
with over 90,000 respondents). We found that
competencies for effective HR professionals have
gotten more complex (e.g., managing change, a
competence 30 years ago, is now about change,
culture, and paradox). More telling, we have
documented that HR professionals have
dramatically improved. While some continually
bemoan the lack of professionalism among HR
professionals, our data shows remarkable overall
progress in the competencies of HR
professionals.

Schawbel: What is your view on HR’s new focus

on the “employee experience” and the new
conversations that are happening between HR,
facilities, IT, marketing, etc?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschawbel/2017/04/05/dave­ulrich­organization­has­4x­the­impact­on­business­results­as­individual/print/ 4/6
16/4/2017 Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4 Times The Impact On Business Results As Individual'

Ulrich: In the talent space, we have seen an

evolution from sourcing employees who are
competent (hiring, training, paying for skills) to
committed (engaged through a value
proposition) to contributing (finding meaning
and purpose from work). Employee experience is
a wonderful tag line for helping employees find
well being, meaning, and purpose from work. It
is a good evolution of managing talent (see Why
of Work book). Our first caveat is that we found
organization has four times the impact on
business results as individual. Our second caveat
is that employee experience is not the outcome,
but a means of helping the organization win in
the marketplace. HR is not about HR, but about
the business. Employee experience is not just
about employee sentiment, but how that
sentiment will deliver business results. Without
serving customers and investors, organizations
do not exist, so employee experience should lead
to better customer and investor experiences (see
Leadership Capital Index book).

Dan Schawbel is a keynote speaker and the New

York Times bestselling author of Promote
Yourself and Me 2.0. Subscribe to his free
newsletter.

RECOMMENDED BY FORBES

The Richest Person In Every State

Never Trust A Manager Who Does These Five

Things

This article is available online at: 2017 Forbes.com LLC™ All Rights Reserved

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschawbel/2017/04/05/dave­ulrich­organization­has­4x­the­impact­on­business­results­as­individual/print/ 5/6
16/4/2017 Dave Ulrich: 'Organization Has 4 Times The Impact On Business Results As Individual'

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschawbel/2017/04/05/dave­ulrich­organization­has­4x­the­impact­on­business­results­as­individual/print/ 6/6