Cultivating the capacity to say yes and no

Session 3 Part 4 - Questions

Guest: Gabor Mate

Disclaimer: The contents of this interview are for informational purposes only and are not intended to be a substitute for
professional psychological advice, diagnosis, or treatment. This interview does not provide psychological advice, diagnosis, or
treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a
medical or psychological condition.

[00:00:06] Alex Howard

Welcome back, Gabor.

Gabor Mate
Thank you. So, we were working on this exercise. And so the first question was, where do you have
trouble saying no in your life? Second one, what is the impact on you of your difficult saying no? Third
question was, what is the hidden story behind it?

And those hidden stories are usually pretty easy to identify. They're pretty much, if I say no, I'm selfish.
If I say no, I hurt other people. It's not nice to be angry. I'm responsible for how other people feel.
These are just stories that you tell yourself. They're stories that you tell yourself for a good reason, as
we just saw, because these stories helped you survive your childhood. The only trouble is you still
believe them.

So notice the stories, but you can actually question yourself like I did with Jessica. If it was me, would
you judge me as taking up space and time? Did you judge other people, Jane, for taking up space
and time? No, of course not. It was beautiful. The reason it's important to know the stories is because
you can actually engage with them. Is it really true? No, it's not really true.

And then you can also look at, where did I learn these stories? Well, naturally, you learned them in
your childhood. Rather than just that general answer, look at specifically how you learned those
stories. Like what experiences? Talk to those stories.

And then I asked you a question about where you're not saying yes in your life, where there's a yes
that wants to be said, but you are not saying it because you don't leave space and time for yourself to
say yes. So that's the question I'd like to engage with right now. So if people want to talk about where
they don't say a yes, and what I mean, there is a yes to something that they want to do or be or
manifest that they're not saying. Where's that? I wonder if anybody would like to... People can just put
it in the chat line, or if they want to talk about it, I can talk about that with somebody.

Alex Howard
I'm just going to open the chat back up. So if people haven't been able to just for the last few minutes,
Gabor. And also, if people want to share in the chat, and if someone wants to come on camera, please
use the Q&A function. That's how I know you're happy to come on camera. So I've got someone,
Emma, I'm going to bring you through.

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[00:03:11] Emma
Hi. I don't know if you can see me because my internet is probably a little bad.

Alex Howard
We can see you just about enough, yes.

Emma
Ok. So I have a hard difficulty or I'm challenged at the moment with saying yes, as I've just finished a
course, actually based on Almaas' teachings, to become a therapist. And I've started and I have
clients, but there's this part of me that's still hard to believe it, or to say yes to, or to come out into that
space. And I find it also very hard to say yes to... So I've been single for four years, and a part of me
really wants an intimate relationship, but it's just not happening. I'm very scared of maybe putting
myself out there.

Gabor Mate
Okay. So, Emma, I hear you referring to two dynamics here. One of them is you just completed a
course that you're excited about. It was based on Hameed's work, and you're a therapist, but you have
trouble saying yes to it. Is that the case? Or you have trouble believing that you're good enough to do
it. Which is it?

Emma
Yeah, I'd say it's not... like owning my space.

Gabor Mate
Okay, here's the thing. Are you doing it?

Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Are you taking on clients?

Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
How's your experience working with clients?

Emma
Really good.

Gabor Mate
Then you're saying yes. Okay, then you don't have a problem saying yes. You may not have fully felt
yourself into it. You may still be doubting yourself. That's pretty natural at the beginning of any new
path. But the fact is, you're not holding back. You're actually saying, whatever your beliefs are,
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whatever your doubts are, whatever your quibbles are about fully owning it, in fact, you're stepping
forward, as far as I understand it, and saying yes, I'm doing this. Is that not the case?

[00:05:24] Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Okay. So let's just try and do something here. What if you said to me, just really feel into it, and the
experience of having taken this course, all the learning that you've done, all the personal expansion
that you have experienced, and now you're transmitting that wisdom and that insight to others. Can
you feel into all that right now?

Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Okay. How about saying, "Yes, I'm doing it!"

Emma
Yes, I'm doing it, for sure.

Gabor Mate
"For sure" is already you're doing it, otherwise you wouldn't say "for sure." Do it again. It's okay. It's just
an exercise we're doing. You don't have to perform for me or for the group. So just whatever is
authentic for you. But look, you've just done this course. You've had a life path before this course, and
something called you to do it. And you answered that call. And it's demanding, the course demands
of you, some deep self exploration and presence and all that. And you did it. So you experienced an
expansion, and you received a gift that you believe now you can give to others. Is that not the case?

Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Tell me what that yes feels like.

Emma
It's scary.

Gabor Mate
Sorry?

Emma
Scary.

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[00:07:07] Gabor Mate
Scary?

Emma
Yeah.

Gabor Mate
Okay. But you say yes anyway?

Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
What does that yes feel like, when you just said yes to me just now?

Emma
It's freeing, actually.

Gabor Mate
What's that?

Emma
It's freeing.

Gabor Mate
Okay. Look, you're saying it. You're doing it. Okay? You just need to accept that for a while, there may
be some doubts, some quibbles there for you. But when you said yes, I hate to tell you, but I didn't
see somebody who was afraid. I saw somebody who was... You know what, open up the chat line,
Alex, ask people what they saw when Emma said, "Yes!" Okay?

Alex Howard
Chat is open, so let's have some responses.

Gabor Mate
What are they saying? Just read out to me what they're saying.

Alex Howard
So, "excited" is the first one.

Gabor Mate
Excitement, okay.

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[00:08:10] Alex Howard
Proud. Determined. Alive. Confident. Powerful. Confidence. Authentic. Felt strong.

Gabor Mate
Yeah. That's what I saw, too. So now you might have a decision to make. Either everybody else is
crazy, or you're crazy. What do you want to go with? Or how about neither, okay?

Emma
It feels a bit crazy.

Gabor Mate
How about neither? The strength is in you. The yes is in you. The confidence is in you. You're
manifesting it.

Emma
Sure.

Gabor Mate
Almaas said something that may help you here, at least something that I understood him to say once.
It's that the personality will always try to invalidate the essence because the personality is scared of
essence because it came along as a substitute. It does not want to go away. I don't know if he would
put it this way, but this is my understanding of it.

What I see, and I think what everybody else saw, was you're actually manifesting some essential
qualities, your strength and will, clarity. And your personality says no, please, not. Okay. That's all that's
going on.

Emma
Okay.

Gabor Mate
Okay?

Emma
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Okay. Now your other issue about relationships. Look. You probably had some really good reason not
to be in a relationship for four years. You probably have some experiences with relationships where
you didn't have boundaries, and where you were hurt. And that goes back to your childhood, of
course. And what you actually did is you did something very brave. You said I'm going to find myself
first, because otherwise I keep losing myself in a relationship. I imagine this was your process.

Emma
Yes.

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[00:09:36] Gabor Mate
Now you're kind of getting ready to move out there again, and naturally you have the fear. But I'm
telling you something. Your problem before wasn't with your partners. It was your lack of knowledge
of self and your lack of boundaries and your disconnection to your gut feelings. When you have your
gut feelings, when you have a clearer sense of your boundaries, you'll be much safer out there than
you were before. And you won't even attract the people that you attracted before, because they'll be
too scared of you. Or if you saw them, you would have nothing to do with them. So that, what I'm
advising you to do is to keep holding onto yourself in any relationship or potential relationship, keep
checking in with yourself and really honor your feelings. You're going to be safe. And you're going to
find who you need to find.

Emma
There's ways that everything you said is spot on. There's just always that sense of rejection, even
though I can hold myself, even though I can check in with my emotions, and see what's happening,
and be true to myself. There's always the fear of the rejection.

Gabor Mate
So your fear is of rejection, right?

Emma
For sure.

Gabor Mate
And if somebody rejects you, what does that mean? If that's what they do.

Emma
That they're not the person for me, and that's okay.

Gabor Mate
That's all it means. It says nothing about you. Now, as a child, when you're rejected, you had that
mean that there's something wrong with me. That's the only way you could survive. It's up to you
whether you're still going to make it mean that or not.

By the way, rejection, it could be that... I don't know there's any number of reasons, but rejection is
only one way of phrasing it. But it's not about you. It's about them.

And it may happen. You might really like somebody, and they may not reciprocate. That could
happen. And this is where you need to find the internal support, which I believe in Hameed's course,
you would have done a lot of work on, that internal support. No?

Emma
For sure. It's changed me immensely over the last couple of years. I'm much more in a space where I
feel able to hold myself and not spiral if there's rejection.

Gabor Mate
Great. So there you are. You have it all. You're not missing anything. It's just your little personality is
doing his thing, that's all. Okay?

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[00:13:36] Emma
Yeah. Thank you.

Gabor Mate
Thank you.

Alex Howard
Thank you, Emma. I think it's also a great example. Gabor, despite the fact that Emma had some
connection issues, we can still feel her. That's the power of one's presence.

Gabor Mate
Exactly, yes. Exactly. All right, so go ahead.

Alex Howard
I was going to say, I know there's some other people that are interested to explore this, but I'm also
mindful of time. If you want to move, I'm happy to take your steer here which way you'd like to go.

Gabor Mate
No, I'm just perfectly happy to go with the flow. So if there's more questions or somebody else wants
to come up, I'm happy to work with them.

Alex Howard
Okay. I'm going to bring one more person. I thought this is a really important piece of it, but I'd like to
bring Diana, who posted the Q&A. So, Diana, I'm just going to bring you on. So Diana you said, I can't
say yes to me, but you'd like to explore that. So tell us a bit more.

Diana
Yes. It's really difficult to say yes and really own and claim to be me. So when everything is out there,
there's a functionality, but I'm not owning it, I can't really fully say yes, and take me in, and be me.

Gabor Mate
So you have a sense that you're not being yourself. Is that what you're saying?

Diana
Yes. It always feels like there's a distancing, as if I keep myself on the other side of the fence. So
there's someone turning up which looks familiar, but there's always a kind of distancing happen.

Gabor Mate
So tell me about that right now.

Diana
I can even feel it right now. So I'm a bit nervous because I'm on camera, but also there is this sort of
kind of functionality that I explain it to you, and I can describe it. But internally, I don't feel it's not the
typical sense of dissociation, but it's a kind of I call it a no man's land.

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[00:15:56] Gabor Mate
Yeah. Okay. Right.

Diana
It's not aligned.

Gabor Mate
Okay. You're very good at analyzing and describing. Okay?

Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
But that doesn't help you very much, does it?

Diana
No.

Gabor Mate
Okay. So let's stop analyzing and describing. Let's just get into your body right now.

Diana
That is scary.

Gabor Mate
So that brings up fear. Is that what you're saying?

Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Okay. So how do you know that it brings up fear? You must be experiencing something that makes
you say that there's fear there.

Diana
The body is tensing up a little bit. The heart rate goes up a little bit. The breathing goes shallow. It's
kind of a little bit frozen. Arrested. So I'm not relaxed.

Gabor Mate
Okay. So you said a number of things. The heart is racing. Is that what you said?

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[00:16:58] Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
What else did you say? There's tension.

Diana
The body is tense. And the breathing gets shallow.

Gabor Mate
Okay. The breathing gets shallow. Have you ever done any breath work? Have you ever done any
breath work with anybody?

Diana
Yeah. I've done quite a bit of different body works over the years.

Gabor Mate
What happens when you do that?

Diana
In the past, a lot of childhood memories would come up, often a lot around terror, panic, distress or
suppressed aggression. So a lot of big charges.

Gabor Mate
Yeah. What I hear you're saying is that you experienced a lot of difficult stuff in childhood.

Diana
Yes, there was.

Gabor Mate
Okay. You don't have to tell me anything you don't want to tell me, but I'm going to ask you anyway,
and you can either say or not say. It's really okay. But were you in some ways abused as a child?

Diana
Yes. My mother was mentally ill, and I was taken away from her when I was seven. So there was a lot
that happened in the first seven years.

Gabor Mate
Any sexual abuse at all?

Diana
Yes.

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[00:18:24] Gabor Mate
Okay.

Diana
I think the worst what goes back is actually not the sexual abuse, it's that she actually tried even
physically to kill me a couple of times. It seems to go back to that.

Gabor Mate
Okay, I hear you. So how does a child survive that?

Diana
By not being present.

Gabor Mate
Yeah.

What are you aware of right now?

Diana
Sharing that, and you compassionately receiving me, opened my heart, and I had compassion about
why it was so important for me not to be me, not to be in, not to be present.

Gabor Mate
Yes. You're experiencing some compassion. Is that right?

Diana
Yes. There's a softening happening.

Gabor Mate
I'm going to ask you to put your attention on that softening. Okay? Just let it be there.

Thank you for doing this work.

Now, is that softening still there?

Diana
A little bit.

Gabor Mate
Okay. When you experience that softening, were you still distant from it, or were you with it?

Diana
In the beginning, I was with it. There was no distancing.

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[00:20:11] Gabor Mate
Very good. Okay. What does that teach you?

Diana
That I can be me, or that I can be without the distancing.

Gabor Mate
Absolutely. In fact you were there right now.

Diana
When it's sliding back into functionality, it's a little bit of a distancing comes back.

Gabor Mate
Yes. Of course it does. It's what saved your life, Diana. It's very hard for you to give it up.

Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
And it's very hard for it to let go of you because, I can't leave, because if I leave, she's in danger.

Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Anything wrong with that?

Diana
Of course not. But now, as an adult, it's clearly not relevant any longer, but it does...

Gabor Mate
So, my suggestion for you is not to make a problem out of it, but to notice it when it's there, and say
thank you. You saved my life.

Diana
Be grateful, yeah.

Gabor Mate
Every time you notice it, thank you, you saved my life. I don't need you anymore. Your services are no
longer required. But thank you. You saved my life.

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[00:22:14] Diana
Probably in some respect, I do this, but maybe it's too rational. It's still, I can feel the quality how I
relate while I'm saying it. It's not really open or kind enough.

Gabor Mate
I understand. So just pay attention again to what's happening inside you right now. Okay? You said
that when I asked you to check in with your body, you said that was very scary. Is this still scary right
now? Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. I'm asking.

Diana
It's not scary right now, but there's clearly always a hyper alert part, checking it out if I go too deep or
if I go into that direction. So there's always a scanning going on.

Gabor Mate
Okay. If I was standing next to you, and I kept saying to you, be careful, don't go too far. Be careful.
Who would I be?

Diana
I don't know. What was interesting is it would make me angry. That would frustrate me.

Gabor Mate
Because?

Diana
I would feel restricted.

Gabor Mate
But where would I be coming from? Why would I be doing that?

Diana
From the past.

Gabor Mate
Yeah, I'd be trying to protect you, right? So that distance. Every time you notice that distance... Let's do
it right now. Okay? Just one last time. This distance that you describe, where do you experience it?

Diana
Usually I experience it in the chest and the belly. But right now, what you just did to ask me if you
would stand next to me has shifted something. Right now, actually, it really feels like something wants
to push that away from the inside. I don't want to be protected any longer.

Gabor Mate
Okay. Where are you experiencing whatever you're experiencing?

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[00:24:45] Diana
It's a kind of energy, oomph, in the whole upper body, which sort of pushes out.

Gabor Mate
Okay. It's an energy in the upper body. Can you put your attention on that right now? That's what's
there now. Okay?

Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
Can you put your attention on that, and there's no script. Nothing needs to happen. Nothing needs not
to happen. We just want to see what is it that is present. Okay, so put your attention on that energy
now and just see what happens, if anything.

Diana
Actually, it creates space. And it's nice finally to feel kind of a boundary, because usually this other
state is so collapsed.

Gabor Mate
Okay, so space with a boundary. Is that what's happening?

Diana
Yes.

Gabor Mate
What's that like for you?

Diana
It actually feels safer. It feels safe.

Gabor Mate
Okay. Just take a few breaths. Be with that for a moment. It's safe to breathe. It's okay to take a deep
breath. It's okay to take a shallow breath, too.

Diana
Yeah, it just came naturally the deep breathing, now there was no scanning or checking.

Gabor Mate
Exactly. Okay, so look, did you just get a test of something?

Diana
Yeah.

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[00:26:18] Gabor Mate
Again, you don't need to give me the right answers, okay? I just need to know what's true for you. Did
you just get a taste of something?

Diana
Yes. I did.

Gabor Mate
Just say what that was, if you can.

Diana
I feel liberated. I feel freer, and it feels more added.

Gabor Mate
Okay. That's you.

Diana
It touches me. So I can be me.

Gabor Mate
Oh I think so.

Diana
Thank you.

Gabor Mate
Thank you very much. Okay. Bye.

Diana
Bye.

Alex Howard
Thank you, Diana. That was both very brave and very beautiful.

Gabor, I'm mindful that you had an additional exercise you wanted to bring in today, but also, perhaps
you want to continue this journey through the questions.

Gabor Mate
Yeah. I'd rather just keep going.

Alex Howard
Yeah, I think let's do that.

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[00:27:34] Gabor Mate
So when people have trouble saying yes... We just saw a very beautiful example of it. In fact, both the
women that addressed that question, they had powerful reasons not to say yes. And so an inquiry will
always reveal and uncover those reasons. And it'll open up some space. And Almaas is very eloquent
in talking about space and the experience of space.

People have trouble saying yes. A lot of people have a desire to express themselves artistically, to
draw, to paint, to sculpt, to dance, to play music, or to listen to music, for nature, for gardening, for
social contact, for certain activities. But they don't say yes, because they don't know how to say no,
there's not enough time to say yes, because all that time is taken up fulfilling all the things that they
do, because they don't know how to say no. But what I'm saying to you is that their not saying yes is
as painful and as hurtful as not saying no. So if you say yes to the wrong things, it will deprive you of
your capacity to say yes to the right things, the two kind of go together.

So remember what I said about the child. The reason we learn how to say no first very powerfully, is
that if we don't know how to say no truly, then our yeses don't mean a thing. So when there's a no
there, but you say yes instead, you don't leave space for the real yes. You're squeezing yourself out of
the picture is what you do. So that's why that question is important.

Alex Howard
It also strikes me, Gabor, that to really know what we want to say yes to, we also have to be in touch
with our own hearts. We have to be embodied enough to be able to feel what that is.

Gabor Mate
That's true. That's true. But at the same time, usually when most people check in with themselves,
there'll be some niggling sense in there of something that is urging itself. But you're not giving it
space. It's true. The more in touch we are, the more we can embody that yes and know in what
direction to open it to. But at the same time, if you pay enough attention, it's always going to be there.
Something is always there.

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