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A Conversation with Paul F. Lazarsfeld

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A Conversation with Paul F. Lazarsfeld
Author(s): Paul F. Lazarsfeld and Nico Stehr
Source: The American Sociologist, Vol. 17, No. 3 (Aug., 1982), pp. 150-155
Published by: American Sociological Association
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 A CONVERSATION WITH PAUL F. LAZARSFELD*
Nico Stehr
University of Alberta

The American Sociologist 1982, Vol. 17 (August): 150-155

The following is an edited transcript of a conversation with Paul F. Lazarsfeld, recorded a few
months before his death in the fall of 1976. The conversation took place during a visit by
Lazarsfeld to the University of Alberta where a group of graduate students and I had organized
an informal seminar which was concerned with the development of diverse intellectual
traditions in sociology in general and the intersection of biography, history, and ideas in
particular. ' Our discussions with Lazarsfeld were most intensive and lasted three days. The
transcript which follows was video-taped at the end of these sessions and represents, in some
sense, a summary of our discussions. However, it was not our intention to critically scrutinize
and debate ideas and past intellectual developments; rather we were concerned with the more
preliminary work of gaining insights into the nature of the tradition and the genesis of
Lazarsfeld s work. In particular, we were interested in the dissemination of European
intellectual developments in social science to North America at a particular historical juncture.
And what better witness than Paul Lazarsfeld who was a, if not the, central figure in this
fruitful exchange brought about by the most tragic historical circumstances.

Stehr: If you could first describe to us, Dr. I think this conglomerate of my biography
Lazarsfeld, something about your biography, characterizes most of the work I have done.
especially what brought you to sociology.
Stehr: There are two dates I would like you to
Lazarsfeld: Well, I was lucky in the sense that state, if you would please. One is of a very
in my youth empirical sociology was not very famous study that you did with Marie Jahoda,
well developed. What was most needed were among others, on a town with a high rate of
amateurs who knew a little bit of a number of unemployment in Austria. Could you give us
fields, and I fitted this picture very well. the year that was done and also the year you
I was born in Vienna, Austria, and got my came to the United States? That would give us
degree there. So, I grew up in an atmosphere points of reference.
where speculative thinking was very impor
tant. But I also happened to be very interested Lazarsfeld: Marienthal was the name of this
in empirical research, partly because I was town. The study (Lazarsfeld et al., 1933), I
trained as a mathematician and partly because think the third major book my collaborators
empirical social research was of considerable and I published, still in Vienna and in German,
political interest in that time of a rapidly rising was begun about 1929. This was during the
Labour party in Austria. time my American friends call "the depres
So my background was politics and mathe sion"; but I have always had the impression
matics and a European humanistic training. that they did not really know what the depres
And out of these many roots of my work came sion was. The misery and poverty of Central
a form of empirical research, with a great em Europe at that time, the amount of unemploy
phasis on getting not just isolated results but in ment and the lack of policy toward it, was
combining them into larger units. At the same much more gruesome than anything one knew
time, because so many fields were involved, it in North America. So to really see what this
was very important to have a clear picture of kind of long-lasting unemployment does to
what one was doing at a certain moment, and people, this study was begun in 1929.
that led me to a very strong interest in method It had, indeed, a connection with my coming
ology; that is, in explication of the kind of to the United States because the study aroused
research that I and my colleagues did. considerable interest?it was one of the first
major studies of unemployment, and it also
* Address correspondence to: Nico Stehr, De very programmatically tried to combine em
partment of Sociology, University of Alberta, Ed pirical work with basic conceptual ideas. And
monton, Alberta, Canada T6G 2H4. so I came to the attention of the Rockefeller
1 The work of the group, which included at the Foundation.
time of the visit by Paul Lazarsfeld, Marilyn
Assheton-Smith, David Alexander, Anthony Sim
You wanted two dates. In 1932 I was
mons, Donald Mottershead, and Brian Gibbon, was awarded a two-year travelling fellowship to the
supported by a grant from the Department of Ad United States. I arrived in 1933. The first two
vanced Education, Province of Alberta. years in the United States I could do whatever
150

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 A Conversation with Paul F. Lazarsfeld 151

I wanted and go wherever I wanted, and be away on research for the New Deal. But that
cause of my interest in unemployment I began lasted for a very short period. Going into real
work with the new Roosevelt administration politics was still, at that time, very difficult for
which was then very much interested in someone who hardly spoke English. Also,
studying unemployment. there was no natural place like the Labour
When my fellowship came to an end in 1935, party to go to. And I suppose that slowly I
things in Austria had become unpleasant. Hit drifted into emphasizing more and more my
ler wasn't yet there; he came to Austria only in research work and increasingly lost, or never
1938. But there was an intermediate fascistic really gained, contact with American politics,
government which was not to my taste, so I very much to my regret. I think of myself
stayed. My major job at the time was to be sometimes as a frustrated politician, and be
director of another Rockefeller project study cause I cannot run a party club in America I
ing the effect of radio, which was then quite have always run research institutes. I feel that
new, on American society. That lasted a few my political instincts have been completely
years; then, in 1939 I became a member of the frustrated, that my politics and research have
never really gotten re-united in the United
faculty of Columbia University and have been
there since. States. Whether I could have taken another
road is very difficult to say. In retrospect I
Stehr: I would like you to expand upon one wouldn't even say that it was a choice. It was
point a bit, especially since I have the feelingjust that the only way I could stay in the United
that one of the very prominent criticisms of theStates (as I wanted to) was by emphasizing my
kind of sociology, empirical sociology, with skills as a research person and a research orga
which your name is associated, is that this type nizer.
of research is really rather apolitical. If I re
member correctly, in our earlier discussion you Stehr: Professor Lazarsfeld, you've described
had emphasized how important political incen how your original interest in empirical sociol
tives were in doing empirical social research in ogy came about as a result of, on the one hand,
Vienna. I wonder whether you could very your training as a mathematician and, on the
briefly explain to us what you felt was the other hand, your interest in socialism and re
significance of your political concerns at the search for labor organizations. I wonder if you
time for getting involved in empirical social have any comments on the interesting
research. transformation which has taken place in the
use of empirical research. Since the very deci
Lazarsfeld: That's a very good question. One sion to do empirical research on working class
has to explain that by comparing the political institutions, for example in Vienna in the
structure of a country like Austria with a 1930s, could be regarded as a progressive
country like the United States. In Austria, political movement of sociologists, how do you
doing empirical research on the situation of the feel about the situation which perhaps could be
working class was of very great political im considered to have occurred in the United
portance because it clarified the difference; States, in which the foundations of the work
that is, the importance of social stratification. that you were responsible for laying have now
The same young people who worked with me essentially passed over into the hands of the
in Austria (and returned) are now well-known: more affluent and powerful sections of society?
the present Chancellor of Austria, Bruno For example, your own work in market studies
Kreisk, belonged to the group of people who has now formed the basis of advertising and
did those early studies with me. Now, the rea promotional campaigns which, it could be
son that this alliance was so simple is that you argued, help to erode the basis for consumer
had, as in England, an increasingly powerful sovereignty in the United States, and your
labor movement: the Labour party, supported work on social opinion leaders has perhaps
by very uncorrupt unions. So the political pic been used in projects like Phoenix and by the
ture in Austria at the time was quite similar to American Government in its pacification pro
that in England today. grams in Vietnam. What thoughts do you have
When I came to the United States, (a) there about the way in which the results of your
was no labor party, and (b) there was little research have passed from the hands of those
interest on the part of American unions in re who would have used it for your purposes of
search or information. So, something which social reform to those who now use it for the
formed a very natural unity in Austria broke up purpose of control?
in America.
Now, I don't think I really had the choice of Lazarsfeld: Well, I think that is a very justified
going into politics in the United States. As I question. Let me start at the other end, which
told you, I did what I could: I worked right is a little bit more in the world of conflict.

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 152 The American Sociologist

When this new wave, the so-called "war on placing this kind of work into a proper insti
poverty," started in the mid-sixties, I immedi tional setting.
ately saw here a new chance, and I have been This so-to-say "question of conscience" tha
in my research very closely connected again you raised has been very much on my mind
with the various new developments in the fed There have been endless jokes. At one speech
eral U.S. government to support compensatory said that I didn't agree with some colleagu
education, to improve health facilities, and so because I considered myself a Marxist on lea
on. So, whenever there was an opportunity to of absence, and someone boomed out from t
align myself again with something close to the audience, "Who gave you leave?"
politics I liked, I chose it. One of my great colleagues was Robert Lyn
But I think you are quite right that in the of Columbia, the man who wrote Middle tow
intermediate period, between the New Deal (Lynd and Lynd, 1929) and Knowledge fo
and the War on Poverty, let's say from the late What? (Lynd, 1939) and who helped me great
1930s to the middle 1960s, my work was very but also rasied the same question as y
much centered on the kind of things you men where is my conscience? I would then answer
tioned, essentially studying people's decision well, that begins after five o'clock. From nin
processes: how did they decide how to vote, to five I am organizing empirical research an
how did they choose their occupation, how did after five o'clock I am talking politics.
they decide to buy what brand of coffee, and so I think this question of the war you me
on. tioned is very interesting, because at the tim
So there you are quite right. That is toofsay, thein
Vietnam war I considered myself muc
my old work for at least 15 or 20 years more
therea part of the American scene; I think
waspro
was a strong concentration of decision one of the very early anti-w
cesses; therefore, propaganda, advertising,
manifestants?signers and so on?on the w
and so on played a very great role, and there
issue. is
This was not the case during the Worl
no doubt really that a lot of my stuff War,
was usedwhere I worked very closely with t
by commercial agencies. As a matter of American
fact, army as a member of Sam Stouffe
when I created the center or research bureau
researchat work on the army which ended up
the Faculty of Science at Columbia, wethe were in classic The American Soldier (Stouf
great
the beginning very much dependent onfer getting
et al., 1949). So again, things changed, an
grants and contracts from people of thisthis is historical context. I think most North
kind.
I might make you aware that it is even more
Americans felt very differently about the Se
complicated than you make it soundond because
World War than they felt about Vietnam
the study of aggregate decisions of people; thatthere again you have a contradiction;
so that
is, how people decide into which occupation
was very to active in military research in the S
go, what organization to join, whetherondto volWorld War and very active against an
unteer or not to volunteer?there arewar endless
activities during the Vietnam War.
studies by myself and my students centering on
some kind of decision?is itself a homeless
Stehr:skill
Dr. Lazarsfeld, it might be said, ho
or art. In the American structure, at that
ever,time
that there has historically been a clo
especially, academic psychology was so
relationship between the kind of survey r
strongly behaviorist-oriented that this search
study of
that is normally carried out by institut
people's decisions had too much of an intro
and research groups and the vested interests o
spective element and was not acceptable. On
certain groups that have control and power in
the other hand, I think that beginning society
with theat a given time. I guess the question i
statistical study of people's decisionstwofold:
was too do you see the correlation betwe
optimistic for sociologists. It was toothis
individ
approach to sociology and those kinds of
ual for sociologists, and too introspective for
interests as being essential, and what are the
academic psychologists; therefore, itimages
became of sociology that are constructed out o
necessary to look for a new form of academic
having that kind of involvement?
setting where one could do such work. I think
that inasmuch as people know about Lazarsfeld:
me it is On your first question I would def
mainly as having created the first academic
nitely say that in principle it is not necessary
empirical research bureau, somehow trying
and I tocan give you very nice examples. Fo
fit it into an academic structure because
instance,it we did a very detailed study on the
didn't fit into the conventional departmental
1940 election, the Roosevelt-Wilkie election
structure. Today the United States and is filled
we developed for that a new type of tech
nique,
with such research institutes, spectacular onesnow well-known and used very muc
such as Michigan and smaller ones at every
called the panel technique. That is to say, w
university, but it was at the time anre-interviewed,
institu beginning in May of the cam
tional invention, created out of the necessity
paign, aofgroup of people in Ohio every month

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 A Conversation with Paul F. Lazarsfeld 153

to follow the development of their decisions, so foundation to finance some unusual thing. It is
that we were not depending only on their re partly, of course, the fact that the average
collections of how they decided. And this term sociologist is a middle-class man and has diffi
"panel," meaning to interview the same people culties seeing the problems of the low income
repeatedly, has become familiar. Now, one groups. But it is also partly an inability and
thing which I noticed in this first study?and I unwillingness on the part of various non
now know it to be true generally?was that in middle class organizations to take advantage of
the working-class groups, where the general it. So you are right, but you are not right in
tendency was to vote the Democratic Party principle; you are only right in fact.
(the Democratic Party at that time was, so to
say, a "coalition of minorities;" workers, Stehr: I meant by the question to ask more
Catholics, Jews, and university professors?all about the general practice of the research or
discriminated minorities?were combined to ganizations. I agree with you completely on the
form the Democratic majority, the women, for "in principle" part of your answer, but it seems
a variety of cultural reasons, voted very little. to me in general one does find a disproportion
I remember that I immediately wrote to the ate advantage being taken by certain groups of
C.I.O. (which had just then started) and pub survey research techniques to the disadvantage
lished an article at the same time to say how of groups either unwilling or unable to use
important it would be to pay attention to the them.
wives of the workers. Everyone knew that the
workers would vote Democratic anyhow, but Lazarsfeld: Yes. Look; let me just make two
no one realized that the same workers kept little corrections so we don't mislead our tele
their wives from voting. This was not for vision audience. Empirical research and sur
political reasons, but because voting was not vey research are not identical. You can have
considered the business of wives. participant observation, you can make com
So, whenever there was an opportunity to munity studies, and so on; so let's not just talk
use this kind of work in support of what I about survey research. That's only one aspect.
considered desirable, I would use it. But at that Secondly, if you talk about empirical research,
time at least there was very little intelligent use you have to distinguish between university or
in unions of research, and I don't know if it has ganizations, university institutes, and the in
gotten much better. creasing number of commercial research orga
In the civil rights period research played a nizations. Here I do indeed see a very great
much greater role. In the Supreme Court deci problem, but again it's a bit like that with the
sion and school desegregation case the tes unions. The U.S. universities have not really
timony of people who had done research on been able to incorporate empirical research
Negro questions played a considerable role. So into their structure. I talked to you about how
I don't think there is an intrinsic relation. empirical research fell between departmental
Let me give you an example which comes conventions. It also came at a time when the
back to market research. One of my very good universities were short of money. You see, the
students, David Caplowitz, wrote a disserta physics laboratory started very small; a
tion which came out as a book and played a physics professor a hundred years ago could
considerable role. The title of the book was start in his basement. Today he needs a cyclo
The Poor Pay More (1963). Caplowitz showed, tron. But social research starts expensive right
by conventional market research, that because away; you can't take one person down in your
poor people have less ability to shop around, basement and base your survey on it.
because they have greater difficulty getting So, for a variety of reasons our universities
credit, a smaller search ability, and so on, the have not really integrated empirical research
per unit price which a poor family paid for a into their structure, and it has been taken over
piece of merchandise was considerably higher more and more by commercial agencies. And
than that paid by the well-to-do. Caplowitz this trend toward the commercialization of re
then testified before the Congress on his book search has to be very much distinguished from
and has since followed it up. the intrinsic nature of empirical research.
So the point I am trying to make is that while American universities just missed the boat, or
undoubtedly people who have money and didn't have the money for a ticket and so didn't
power take advantage of any available work, it get on the boat.
is not intrinsically necessary. A very radical
young man, who is at another university, wrote Stehr: You spoke about the importance of the
a paper on this point?the sociology of the institutional innovation with which much of
underdog: what studies are not being made? It your work has been associated: creating, ad
turns out that this is not really a matter of ministering, supervising a large scale research
financing. You can always get some small organization. What generally do you think has

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 154 The American Sociologist
been the contribution of these institutions, tion is intended to refer to certain less desirable
these research organizations, to the develop features of this institutionalization and greater
ment of sociological knowledge and, also, what division of labor or segmentation of social re
are some of the problems associated with this search. I wonder if you have any thoughts on
institutional innovation? these aspects.

Lazarsfeld: There I have a very positive con Lazarsfeld: Oh, I definitely have, and they are
viction, you might call it a bias. I think that the opposite to the ones you have now intimated.
large scale empirical studies, especially those Look; I used the word bureaucratization in a
done by universities, have made great contri good classical sociological sense and not as a
butions to the basic fund of sociological knowl pejorative term. I mean by bureaucratization a
edge, and I'll be glad to give you a few exam division of labor, a certain hierarchy, and a
ples later, if you want. certain element of apprenticeship. By hierar
Secondly, I claim that it is a great advantage chy again I don't mean something bad. Let's
to be affiliated with a bureau. We can show
call it a certain career structure which provides
that students who, at Columbia and at other
for a clear apprenticeship, of being told for a
while and then being free to choose. All these
places, were strongly affiliated with such a re
search bureau wrote more, became more structural elements of a good research bureau
prominent, that it generally helped their have got two great educational advantages.
careers. I myself know that I could never have First, the relation between the project director
done as much academic work if I didn't have a and his assistant is really much more intimate
steady flow of empirical data out of which I than between a graduate assistant and his
could then pick whatever academic paper I graduate student?the grading of how you
wanted. As a matter of fact I created a term, move from one job to another. Second, it
"the managerial scholar," which person is very forces a much greater clarification of elements
different from a dean. I don't know how to involved in research. If you have, for instance,
define a dean but, by and large, he is not a study which, on the one hand, requires cod
known for special creativity as compared with ing perhaps 100 questionnaire answers and
a professor. I think it could be easily shown writing the questionnaire and at the same time
that the bureau director is, by and large, a requires participant observation or a very small
better man than the usual director, and one number of detailed interviews, you have then
very obvious reason is that the relation be to train people clearly. They have to under
tween productivity and running a bureau is stand when the structured questionnaire is ap
much greater than the relation between pro propriate and when participant observation is
ductivity and teaching. appropriate; if you have staff meetings and
You ask what problems there are. Of course they report, they become much clearer. I
there are problems: you work yourself to death would say that there is a real interleafing be
and you have to do a lot of things you don't tween improved methodology and the
like, but I will make you a bet that the disad structured type of bureau research.
vantages of teaching for productivity are muchLook; I will even mention a very touchy
greater than the disadvantages of running a topic. There is a very simple distinction be
bureau for creativity. So, leaving out many tween the department and the bureau: a full
serious details?in times of scarcity a poor professor cannot tell an assistant professor or
bureau director has to spend a lot of time rais even an instructor what to do; that guarantees
ing money, and so on?I am inclined to think a famous academic freedom. In a bureau the
that, in terms of personnel, in terms of training, director hands to certain staff members certain
and in terms of contribution to the basic fund oftasks. Except for young Einsteins, (which I
research, the academic bureaus have made a understand are quite rare and where you best
major contribution and my hope is that, in spite wait on what they want to do), I am sorry to
of increasing competition from the commercial say that the Lord has given few people a call
agencies, the role of the bureaus will grow. ing, and they probably in the long run develop
This also depends a bit upon the federal policy; better if for four or five years they have been
obviously a Republican administration is likely told what to do and have been apprentices,
in its granting policy to give considerable sup rather than to follow this mystique that every
port to commercial agencies. twenty-year-old (I don't want to offend any
one) graduate student has in his soul an as
Stehr: At the same time, these developments signment to which he must devote himself, and
which you have just described as being very the fiction that it is terrible to be told what to
positive have often also been discussed in do. If the graduate professor doesn't tell the
terms of the bureaucratization of social re student what to do, then some cousin tells him
search, and presumably such a characteriza by coincidence. So even on the touchy subject

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 A Conversation with Paul F. Lazarsfeld 155

of this supposed coercion during the appren Lynd, Robert S. and Helen M. Lynd
1929 Middletown. New York: Harcourt, Brace
ticeship years, I am very biased in favor of
and Company.
organized research. Stouffer, Samuel A., Edward A. Suchman, Leland
C DeVinney, Shirley A. Star, and Robin M.
references Williams, Jr.
1949 The American Soldier: Adjustment During
Caplovitz, David Army Life. Studies in Social Psychology in
1963 The Poor Pay More. New York: The Free World War II, Vol. I. Princeton, NJ:
Press. Princeton University Press.
Lazarsfeld, Paul F., Marie Jahoda, and Hans Zeisel Stouffer, Samuel A., Arthur A. Lumsdaine, Marion
1933 Die Arbeitslosen von Marienthal: Ein Harper Lumsdaine, Robin M. Williams, Jr., M.
Soziographischer Versuch ?ber die Wir Brewster Smith,, Irving L. Janis, Shirley A. Star,
kung langandauernder Arbeitslosigkeit. and Leonard S. Cottrell, Jr.
Leipzig: S. Hirzel. 1949 The American Soldier: Combat and Its Af
Lynd, Robert S. termath. Studies in Social Psychology in
1939 Knowledge for What? Princeton, NJ: World War II, Vol. II. Princeton, NJ:
Princeton University Press. Princeton University Press.

THE JOB MARKET FOR BACHELOR DEGREE HOLDERS:

A CUMULATION*
R. Alan Hedley and Susan M. Adams
University of Victoria

The American Sociologist 1982, Vol. 17 (August): 155-163

An analysis of 20 studies on the employment of sociology bachelor graduates reveals that of

seven major vocational categories, American graduates most frequently select social service
occupations, while Canadian graduates most often choose teaching positions. The authors note
the deficiencies of the current data base, and suggest means whereby academic sociologists
might provide more vocational information and assistance to their students.

It is only within the past decade that
sociologists seriously have begun to assume
responsibility for their students by advising
them of the vocational opportunities that a de
gree in sociology offers. In previous decades,
the discipline and its membership were ex
panding (Rhoades, 1980a, b) and the issue of
career relevance was of minor concern.
Undergraduate students inquiring of their pro
fessors about employment prospects more
likely than not received vague answers based
on impressionistic evidence. Graduate stu
dents easily found positions in the academic
marketplace (Panian and DeFleur, 1975:3). The
relationship of academic study in sociology to
making a living was not examined seriously.
With the 1970s came a period of declining
enrollments, increased unemployment in all
sectors of the economy, and a student body
* The authors would like to express their appre
ciation to the reviewers for their helpful comments
and suggestions. [Address correspondence to: R.
Alan Hedley, Department of Sociology, University
of Victoria, Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
V8W 2Y2.]
vocationally oriented to what a university de
gree could provide (Campbell, 1980; McGinnis
and Solomon, 1973; Rhoades, 1980c; Wilkin
son, 1980). Job prospects for new Ph.D.s di
minished, and undergraduates began entering
professional and "career" programs.
Members of the discipline have responded to
these developments in two ways: 1) emphasis
on opportunities for the non-academic em
ployment of Ph.D. s. (Freeman, 1980; Panian
and DeFleur, 1975; Wilkinson, 1980); and 2)
introduction of vocational emphasis into
undergraduate programs (Bates, n.d.; Green et
al., 1980). Some colleagues have resisted these
attempts to make sociology vocationally rele
vant, arguing that a major in sociology is de
signed primarily to prepare students for good
citizenship, total living, and learning how to
learn (see Boling, 1976; Lutz, 1979). As ex
plained by Berger (1976), education should be
upheld not as an economic investment but as a
means to self-discovery. Vocationally oriented
skills should be learned once the graduate is
employed.
While we do not contest the claim that

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