17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ?

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How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ?

 Externet ·  Apr 28, 2014

 Not open for further replies.

Externet
Well-Known Member

Apr 28, 2014  #1

The pulse widht will determine the speed a DC motor runs, but what dictates which frequency ?

It is for a 130VDC / 2.75 HP 21 Amperes maximum treadmill DC motor that will operate from a bank of
batteries at 72 Volts.
How to calculate the most convenient frequency ; and what undesirable behavior happens when frequency
is over/under the optimal ?

Abolish the deciBel !

Reloadron
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 28, 2014  #2

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17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ? | Electronics Forum (Circuits, Projects and Microcontrollers)

First you may want to give this a read. The PWM frequency used is going to be a function of the motor.
Next, you mention a 130 VDC motor and a 72 VDC battery bank. PWM runs a motor at its rated working
voltage by turning that voltage on and off at a fast rate. How will your 130 VDC motor respond to a 72 VDC
PWM signal?

Ron

Please do not PM me with forum related questions. Let's keep things in the open forum. Thank you.

ronv
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 28, 2014  #3

It can get complicated. There are probably a lot of people with more experience in this than I have, but oh
well.
A lot depends on your motor and your requirements. A lower frequency will give better low speed torque
and start and run at a lower speed. But to low and power is wasted in the form of heat.
To high and the motor will tend to have more trouble starting at low speeds.
In between is good but audible noise may annoy people.
How much help was that?
Try 1 to 10 KHz and see what you think.

misterT
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 29, 2014  #4

The PWM frequency should be selected so that it does not create too much current ripple in the motor
windings. Current ripple results in heating of the motor.
In theory there is no drawback in using very high frequencies, but in practice high frequencies mean more
trouble with the driving circuitry, not the motor iself. (more complicated circuitry and switching losses).
So, choose the pwm frequency so that the ripple stays "small enough".

Also, Low quality dc-motors usually have high friction and therefore need a high current pulse to get
started. That is why low frequency PWM seems to work better with some motors. But, lowering the PWM
frequency just to get that "starting torque" is wrong.. you will end up with a current ripple which overheats
your motor. (DC) Motors always run better, smoother, cooler and quieter with higher pwm freq.

Here is some theory, but you really don't need that. Just measure the ripple current at 50% duty and choose
your pwm frequency so that it is "small".. I mean.. maybe 5% or less from the full swing.
**broken link removed**

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17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ? | Electronics Forum (Circuits, Projects and Microcontrollers)

And, if your electronics can't do "high enough" pwm frequency, then a perfectly good solution is to add
inductance in series with the motor. That smooths out the ripple also.
Last edited: Apr 29, 2014

"I cannot prove it because it is too basic. Every mathematician knows that the simplest things are the hardest to
prove."

alec_t
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 29, 2014  #5

So some motors might benefit by having the PWM frequency (as well as the duty cycle) increase as the
speed increases? Surprisingly, a quick google doesn't suggest this is common practice.

My circuit designs should be regarded as experimental. Although they work in simulation, their component values
may need altering or additional components may be necessary when the circuits are built. Due safety precautions
should be taken with any circuit involving mains voltage or electrostatic-sensitive components.
Alec's First Law:-
Every problem has a solution (given the right information and resources).

misterT
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 29, 2014  #6

alec_t said: 

So some motors might benefit by having the PWM frequency (as well as the duty cycle) increase as the speed
increases? Surprisingly, a quick google doesn't suggest this is common practice.

If you are referring to post #3..

It might look like that the motor runs better at low PWM frequencies when high torque is needed at low
speed. But when using too low frequency the only thing that is "smoothing the action" is the mass of the
motor and load.. that is.. the mechanical time constant. The current in the motor winding is switching from
"maximum" to "zero" at the PWM frequency. You are not actually controlling the torque, you are just
switching it to "full blast" or "zero".. even when you only need small torque.
If you need more dynamic action from your motor, then better solution is to use some kind of feedback
loop. Good thing is that motors are inherently integrators.
Last edited: Apr 29, 2014

"I cannot prove it because it is too basic. Every mathematician knows that the simplest things are the hardest to
prove."

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/how-to-choose-the-frequency-for-a-pwm-speed-control.140979/ 3/8
17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ? | Electronics Forum (Circuits, Projects and Microcontrollers)

MrAl
M Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 29, 2014  #7

alec_t said: 

So some motors might benefit by having the PWM frequency (as well as the duty cycle) increase as the speed
increases? Surprisingly, a quick google doesn't suggest this is common practice.

Hi,

What made you ask this question?

Also (not related to your question), if the PWM circuit is made right it seems to me that the PWM frequency
should not hurt the start up. That's because if the PWM is made right then it should be able to get up near
100 percent duty cycle, regardless of frequency, and that's full power applied to the motor. If there is too
much dead time then that would make lower frequency more attractive, but then so would a better PWM
circuit.

One test is worth a thousand expert opinions, but one expert specification is worth a thousand tests.
Mathematics is the shortcut to understanding nature.
If i miss something you posted or something you think is important, feel free to PM me.

alec_t
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 30, 2014  #8

What made you ask this question?

The post #4 statement that

"Also, Low quality dc-motors usually have high friction and therefore need a high current pulse to get
started. That is why low frequency PWM seems to work better with some motors. But, lowering the PWM
frequency just to get that "starting torque" is wrong.. you will end up with a current ripple which overheats
your motor. (DC) Motors always run better, smoother, cooler and quieter with higher pwm freq."
I took it that "the PWM frequency" was referring to a fixed frequency. I agree that a fixed low frequency
might not be good for a motor.

My circuit designs should be regarded as experimental. Although they work in simulation, their component values
may need altering or additional components may be necessary when the circuits are built. Due safety precautions
should be taken with any circuit involving mains voltage or electrostatic-sensitive components.
Alec's First Law:-
Every problem has a solution (given the right information and resources).

ronv
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ? | Electronics Forum (Circuits, Projects and Microcontrollers)
Apr 30, 2014  #9

Ok, I think we are all in agreement - now back to your question.

Do you need it to start and run at low speed? Maybe you could test it on 1 battery at a time to see if the
speed and torque is ok.

MrAl
M Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 30, 2014  #10

Hi,

Wasnt his original question about what undesirable effects would be present with too high or too low a
frequency?

I would think too low would result in higher current pulses to the motor, as if it had to start and stop every
cycle. That would heat up the motor and could even cause problems in the load. Too high would result in
more switching losses.

So what is the best? I would think it requires a measurement. Measure the speed with a given load at higher
and lower frequencies, and watch the current waveshape so that it does not rise and fall too much, and
watch the switching speed of the controller circuit. That should turn up a range of operating frequencies
that work ok.

One test is worth a thousand expert opinions, but one expert specification is worth a thousand tests.
Mathematics is the shortcut to understanding nature.
If i miss something you posted or something you think is important, feel free to PM me.

ronv
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 30, 2014  #11

I assume he has an application in mind since he has a motor and a voltage. Other than that we don't know
much about what he wants it to do or if it is open or closed loop. I would think open, but maybe not.

4pyros
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 30, 2014  #12

And here again a 130 volt motor is going to be way under power running off 72 volts.
Thats almost half the voltage and only 1/4 of the rated power, less then 1hp.

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17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ? | Electronics Forum (Circuits, Projects and Microcontrollers)

Externet
Well-Known Member

Apr 30, 2014  #13

Thanks, gentlemen.
Yes, will need to start under load; it is an electric quadricycle I built with 2 joined bicycles and now am
tackling the PWM. Open cycle, less than 1 HP. If not enough power, will add more batteries (all riding
mower Pb type) later.
Will take a picture one of these days.
Edited, added: A couple of opinions found:

https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/80153/calculate-dc-motor-frequency
https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/suitable-pwm-frequency-for-motor-control.19246/
Last edited: Apr 30, 2014

Abolish the deciBel !

4pyros
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 30, 2014  #14

less than 1 HP. If not enough power, will add more batteries (all riding mower Pb type) later.

Then your controller will need to be rated at 120 or 130 volts.

ronv
Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

Apr 30, 2014  #15

Here is a cheap and dirty circuit you can use. I put some cap values in if you want to try various pwm
frequencies.
The FET and big diode will need a heat sink

Attachments

555pwm.png

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17/02/2023 19:56 How to choose the frequency for a PWM speed control ? | Electronics Forum (Circuits, Projects and Microcontrollers)

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