Q&A Elektor Academy and element14 webinar:

The Making of an Improved Radiation Meter – Thijs Beckers

Sensors: Did You get some experiences with other semiconductor materials for the
sensor? For example Germanium (AD 130) or other semiconductors?
Germanium has too much leakage current and will not work.

Since the sensor needs to be kept in a can - any suggestions on how this type of
sensor could be made more field applicable?
The BPW34 needs to be shielded from light, but other than that, you’re free to experiment
with it. Perhaps there is another ‘sensor’ that isn’t sensitive for light, but does pick up
radioactive radiation. The 2N3055 is a lot less sensitive to light, I noticed, but it still needs
some shielding because of the interference that is picked up in our office (PC’s, fluorescent
lamps, wireless telephones, cell phones, et cetera).

Are there any results regarding metering radon with the device?
Radon and its decay products generate gamma rays which can be measured.

Can it count x-ray radiation?

X-ray radiation is detected but yields lower peak amplitudes. In many cases you can
distinguish different types of radiation by looking at the amplitude of the pulses that are
generated by the sensor: Alpha produces the highest amplitudes, x-ray the lowest.

Can the types of radation be diferentiated / identified and indicated? That is whether is
is alpha, beta or gama radation being detected?
Yes. There is an amplitude difference between the different types of radiation. And
depending on the sensor used you can filter out alpha and/or beta radiation.

Can you paint with blach tush pen?

No, it’s not dark enough. You need a thin metal shielding.

Can we talk here about some calibration of the device?

With no sample in front of the sensor, background radiation should yield an average count of
0.33.

Can we use black plastic very thin to cover up the sensor?

Yes. As long as it completely darkens the BPW34 sensor.

Can you add a GPS unit to this to log spatial information?

Yes, of course.
Can you increase sensitivity by simple paralleling of several sensors?
Yes and no, (this is in the webinar Q&A too). The surface gets bigger, so more radioactive
particles are picked up. But because of the larger total volume of intrinsic material the
capacitance os larger and therefore the peak generated by the sensor are of a lesser
amplitude.

Can you make a hole into the box so you dont have to put the test material into the
box?
Yes, but shielding will be compromised and of course it’s not possible with the BPW34
because of the light that will be reaching the sensor.

Can you make the sensor pointable like a normal GM tube?

Yes, you could for example put a (short) tube in front of it.

Can you only measure samples or is it possible to measure the radiation in the
environment around you?
You will always get some gamma-signals from the environment. But long time
measurements are needed to find out small differences.

Can you publish the Elektor pages of that issue?

Yes, the English article is available as a free download from the Element14 website.

Can you say a little more on the energy levels (put a scale to the PC program)?
Roughly you can say 5 MeV is at the right side of the diagram. But it depends a lot on the
shielding you applied.

Could a solar panel be used as a detector?

Probably, yes. But you’ll have to experiment with it. Most types show too much leakage
current.

Could you create a forum for questions and exchange of experiences?

There are already several threads:
-http://www.elektor.com/forum/elektor-forums/fields-of-interest/test-measurement/radiation-
meter-november-2011.2020100.lynkx (English)
- http://www.elektor.de/forum/foren-ubersicht/foren-zu-elektor-projekten/
strahlungsmesser.1969865.lynkx (German)
- http://www.elektor.fr/forum/forum/publications-d-elektor/detecteur-de-rayonnement-
ameliore-(11-2011).2048821.lynkx (French)
You’re welcome to start new discussions of course.

Did you put in parallel 2 or more diodes? What are the results?
We have had good results with three BPW34 diodes in parallel. More pulses, faster
measurement.

Do I understand it right, that the device is also for mobile with a 9V Battery ?
Yes.
Does the metal can shileld the radiadion?
Yes and no. It does shield against alpha and beta radiation, but gamma radiation is not easily
stopped, as explained in the beginning of the webinar.

Does the sensor get damaged by the radiation? If so, what is the expected lifetime?
We have not seen any damage at medium radiation levels. Expected lifetime should be more
then 10 years, though it will probably not be very important, since the sensor is so cheap.

Does the unit also display the radiation level in microsievert units?
No.

During Summertime i am collecting mushrooms. Is it possible to mesure eventual

contamination ?
Probably yes, depending on the type and energy level of the radiation.

Film-box might be good light shield?

Light shield: yes, electrical interference shield: no. Solution: coat with aluminium foil.

For working with a can you need to handle the rad active material. Is it not more safe
to screen the sensor better and use the sensorboard as a hand held device?
Yes. But luckily our ‘commonly available’ samples were not very dangerous.

Any thoughts of identifying isotopes using the pattern seen on a scope?

We could see different results for different samples. With alpha detector BPX61 you can
indeed measure the energy patterns.

Please additional information about using the 2N3055, if additional pieces are needed
e.g. how to connect it etc?
No, nothing else needed. We used the base-emitter pins, Base connected to cathode (‘K’ on
PCB), emitter connected to Anode (‘A’ on PCB). But you could also use the collector-base
diode.

How "good" can you measure the alpha radiation trough a metal can?
Absolutely NOT measurable! Alpha radiation can only be measured with an opened up diode
like the BPX61 or an open transistor.

How can you sense alpha or beta rediation when you build the sensor pcb in a metal
can?
The sample should be put inside the metal can, as demonstrated in the webinar. The
difference between the two types of radiation can be determined by the higher amplitude
peak signals generated by alpha radiation.
How do you wire the 2n3055 sensor? Do you use base emitter junction or the base
collector one? Is it reverse biased as well (like the bpw34)?
In the webinar we connected base to ‘K’, emitter to ‘A’. But you can also use the collector-
base diode in reverse. You can also try to connect both diodes in parallel if the voltage is
lower than the base-emitter breakthrough voltage.
Yes, it is connected identical to the BPW34.

How does the sensitivity of this circuit compares against the sensitivity of a Geiger
tube?
A Geiger tube has a larger volume and produces about 100 times more pulses per time
frame. But it cannot detect energy levels. The photo diode is better for testing small samples.

How many parallel diodes can you apply?

Up to three diodes were tested with good results. Other applications used up to 8 diodes.
how to connect the potmeter on the speaker since your advice is 1000 ohm in stead of the 32
ohm
Connect it in series with the wiper shorted to one of the other pins.

How to mount the bpw 34 sensor?

Anode to ‘A’ mark on PCB, cathode to ‘K’ mark on PCB.

How to see the cathode of the sensor?

With the sensor included in the kit: the side with the ‘bar’ (and two markings on the pin)
should be on the ‘A’-side. Other BPW34’s: refer to datasheet. See also picture on
http://www.elektor.com/forum/elektor-forums/fields-of-interest/test-measurement/radiation-
meter-november-2011.2020100.lynkx.

In case of exposure to strong radiation, is there a point of saturation?

Saturation will occur at around 1000 pulses per second due to the software limitations.

In other words, is your audio broadcast a file that you have chosen to publish?
No, it was live sound accompanied by live video.

Is it also practicable as a mobile version?

Yes.

Is it correct, that all types of radiation are being detected?

Yes

Is it possible to increase sensitivity by cooling the sensor , to reduce the noise. Maybe
by Peltier device?
This was not tested. It probably makes no difference with an Si sensor.
Is it possible to make a precise distinctions, what kind of particle (alpha, beta,gamma)
just hit the sensor?
The highest pulses are generated by alpha radiation, but lower ones can be generated by
any kind of radiation. You can use different shielding to get more distinction.

Is it possible to use the counter unit in combination with a geiger-müller tube?

Use the tube for environmental measurements and the diodes for small samples.

Is it right understand, that the sensor built in a metalbox, can detect gamma radiation
without problems?
Yes, using a thin steel shield will stillallow you to measure gamma rays above about 0.5
MeV.

Is source code available for the PC application?

Yes, from www.elektor.com/110538

Is source code for the AVR in C language available?

No, it’s written in Bascom-AVR.

Is the diode linear for gamma radiation? I.e. is the pulse height proportional to the
gamma photon energy.
Yes.

Is there a specific (shall we say, favourite) application for which you would personally
endorse this product?
Experimenting with radiation detection, measuring spectrums of radioactive samples, testing
of minerals and building materials.

My sensor is very sensitiv to sound. How can I reduce that?

The shielding can be glued to the sensor, so the distance and capacity remains constant.

Please, provide some infos about measuring gamma-radiation, some common test
objects maybe, because some of us have such a good shielding which stopps beta
and alpha radiation...Thanks in advance!
Old watches with radioactive paint. Old petroleum lamp mantles. They produce gamma
radiation that goes through the shielding.

Power supply voltage, and curren. How much?

About 50 mA at 9 to 12 Volts.

Ref. to my last question, i mean what about possible gamma radiating test objects
which are outside the shiled, contaminated air surrounding us and so on...
Gamma radiation is detected even inside the metal can we used for our prototype that is
demonstrated in the webinar.
You can introduce more other radiation sensor manufacturer?
The sensor supplied in the kit is a dead standard BPW34 photodiode, manufacturer not
important. As for other types of sensors, you can experiment freely with different
semiconductors and see which ones yield the best results. We tried the BPX61 and the
2N3055. And please remember to share your findings with other readers in the Elektor
forums.

Source of gamma radiation: radioactive mineral samples like uraninite!

Thank you!

Thanks! so no additional amplifier for the 2N3055...

Nope.

The spectra display lacks units on their axis.

The units would be mV of pulse height. If calibrated it could be in MeV. But this depends very
much on the shielding.

There are some radiation counters in Holland, France, etc linked up to Pachube. Can
this counter be used for environmental radiation measurement and evt sending the
data to Pachube so that everyone can see the measurements.
Yes, gamma radiation would be the easiest to log and send to Pachube.

Thijs, you stated, that the gain of the opamps is around 30000. I think, each stage has
a gain of around 34 (=1+330kOhm/10kOhm). So, the total gain should be around 1156
(=34*34). How was the gain of 30000 calculated?
You are correct. I was mistaken. The 30,000 number came from an error in a previous
schematic. Your calculation is correct.

What happens when the sensor is not darkened and the full 9v current enters the
counter pin?
The will be no damage to the controller, the protection diode inside the microcontroller will
prevent failure.

What if you parallel not just the sensor, but the FET preamplifier as well (i.e. multiple
sensors and FET)? Can this counteract the increase in capacitance of multiple parallel
sensors?
Together with one diode per amp plus one pull down resistor this should work.

What is number in the link www.elektor/xxxxx please? I haven’t the time to note them
www.elektor.com/110538 and www.elektor.com/110553.

What is the maximum of radiation you can measure?

Around 1000 counts per second
What is the pulse duration being picked up on the scope?
about 0.2 ms.

What should the likely cost be for the basic version?

The kit comes with all the parts, PCB and display included for €39.95 (+shipping). You just
need some wires to connect the speaker and the sensor board to the controller board.
The Elektor BreakOut Board is available ready assembled for €15.

What's difference between Geiger Counter and this Radiation meter?

The Radiation Meter can be connected to a PC.
The Radiation Meter can display a spectrum.
The Radiation Meter doesn’t need a high voltage power supply.
The Radiation Meter can run from a battery.
The Radiation Meter is very affordable.
The Radiation Meter is suitable for experimenting with different sensors.
The Radiation Meter produces about 100 times less pulses, but in contrast to the Geiger tube
it can detect energy levels.
The Radiation Meter is better for testing small samples.

Where do we connect the com pins on the print?

At K7, where it says ‘Elektor BOB’.

Which sensor do you recommend according to your tests?

It depends on your sample. For beta and gamma I would say the BPW34, for alpha radiation
I would say a 2N3055 yield better results.

Which type of enclosure do you recommend for real life use? Which gets rid of light
and radioelectric noise, while leaving radiation get through...
Use your imagination. Fisherman’s Friend tins are ok, though the hinges should get some
attention. An old hand cream tin could prove useful. Thin copper (35 µm) is very good. And
also aluminium foil was tested successfully.

Why you use a receptacle to make measure and you don't point the sensor to the
radiation source ?
Because of the interference; for the BPW34 that’s mostly light, the 2N3055 generates a far
better signal when shielded electronically.

You have used Op-Amps. What power source would you recommend for the amps to
work in a spilt-rail configuration?
You shouldn’t do that. The schematic is designed to be used with a single power supply.