razgovarao
interview by
Maroje Mrduljaš
toyo ito
Granice su
društveni
fenomen
Razgovarali u Tokiju 13. ožujka 2012.
¶ Japanska arhitektonska scena jasno je obilježena generacij-
skim sljedovima i prenošenjem znanja. U tom slijedu Toyo Ito
zauzima posebno mjesto jer se nastavlja na djelovanje poslije-
ratnih modernista, sudjeluje u formiranju specifičnih intelek-
tualnih tendencija japanske arhitekture 1970-ih i 1980-ih te
razvija svoj vlastiti prosede koji je ostavio izuzetan utjecaj na
vodeće protagoniste mlađih japanskih generacija. Već počet-
kom svog rada Ito napušta tektoniku betona, ispituje lakoću
i transparentnost, odbija svaku monumentalnost i naglaše-
nije se usmjerava prema konceptualnom razmišljanju koje se
ne bazira na velikim i idealističkim vizijama. Među prvim je
internacionalnim arhitektima koji dubinski promišljaju tran-
sformacije metropolisa u kasnom 20. stoljeću u kontekstu
dominacije vizualne domene, novih životnih stilova i utje-
caja tadašnje ekonomske ekspanzije na izgrađeni okoliš. Ito i
dalje ostaje predvodnik istraživačkih tendencija u japanskoj
arhitekturi i danas je posvećen kompleksnim trodimenzional-
nim prostornim konfiguracijama i sasvim novom poimanjima
odnosa ‘unutarnjeg’ i ‘vanjskog’, što su njegove trajne teme.
Ito je dobitnik Pritzkerove nagrade za 2013. godinu.
12 oris, broj 80, godina 2013
toyo ito portreti
portraits
Yasuhiro Takagi
Boundaries
ORIS — Započet ću s pitanjem koje je u određenoj mjeri
povijesno, ali mislim da se odnosi i na suvremenu situaciju i
na početke vašeg rada. Upravo se održava izložba metabo-
Are a Social
lističkog pokreta u Tokiju, a objavljena je i knjiga o metabo-
lizmu, Project Japan, Rema Koolhaasa i Hansa Ulricha Obrista.
Očito postoji znatan interes za metabolizam. Zašto je tako?
Metabolisti su vjerovali da je moguć produktivni odnos uto-
Phenomenon
pijskog horizonta i društvene stvarnosti i da će biti prove-
dene velike vizije. Moderna povijest pokazala je da arhitekti
nemaju moć projektirati gradove kao cjeline. Ipak, mislite li
da arhitekti danas mogu djelovati kao pokretači promjena,
Interviewed in Tokyo, 13 March 2012 ali primjenjujući drugačije strategije? ¶ Toyo ito — Rem
Koolhaas je moj blizak prijatelj i želio sam znati zašto je zain-
¶ The Japanese architectural scene is clearly marked by gener- teresiran za japanski arhitektonski pokret poznat kao meta-
ational sequences and transfer of knowledge. Toyo Ito holds bolizam. Rekao je da se Japan u 1960-ima ubrzano kretao iz
a special place in this sequence as he continued the activi- jednog urbanog projekta u drugi, dok u 1970-ima, što je vrlo
ties of post-war modernists, participated in the formation misteriozno, nitko nije započinjao velike projekte. Znam da
oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju
fotografije
photography by
Ishiguro Photographic Institute (IPI); Daici Ano (DA);Toyo
Ito & Associates, Architects (TIAA); Nacasa & Partners Inc.
(NPI); Koji Taki (KT); Nagano Consultant (NC)
of specific intellectual tendencies of Japanese architecture in
the 1970s and 1980s, and developed his own method which
has left a remarkable impact on the leading protagonists of
the younger Japanese generation. At the very beginning of his
career Ito left the tectonics of concrete and examined light-
ness and transparency, disclaiming all monumentality and
prominently moving towards conceptual thinking that was
not based on broad and idealistic visions. He was among the
first international architects to reflect deeply on the trans-
forming metropolis in the late 20th century in the context
of the dominance of visual domains, new lifestyles and the
influence of the then economic expansion on the built envi-
ronment. Ito remains the leader in research trends in Japanese
architecture today and is devoted to complex three-dimen-
sional spatial configurations and an entirely new conception
of the relation of ‘internal’ and ‘external’ as his permanent
themes. Ito is the winner of the 2013 Pritzker Prize.
toyo Ito, Interview 13
 postoji jak razlog za to. Diplomirao sam na sveučilištu u Tokiju ORIS — I will start with a question which is to some extent U to vrijeme sam bio pomalo ORIS — You made a shift from the quite heavy concrete
1965. godine, a ubrzo nakon toga počeo sam raditi u uredu historical but I think is related to the contemporary situa- architecture of Japan towards lightness, towards a new con-
Kiyonorija Kikutake, jednog od pripadnika metabolista, koji tion and also to the beginnings of your work. There is an ciničan u vezi lakoće. Htio sam cept of architecture which was mainly assembled from pre-
je preminuo krajem 2011. Radio sam tamo nekoliko godina i u exhibition of the Metabolist movement currently showing dizajnirati arhitekturu koja nema fabricated materials like steel beams, aluminium sheets... You
tom razdoblju se situacija u Japanu jako promijenila. Tijekom in Tokyo. A book by Rem Koolhaas and Hans Ulrich Obrist introduced a new architectural language at that time. What
1960-ih je bilo mnogo inovativne i eksperimentalne arhitek- about Metabolism has also been published. Obviously there težinu, poput papira was the reason to start architectural research in that direc-
ture koju su stvarali Kenzo Tange i drugi metabolisti. U drugoj is considerable interest in Metabolism. Why is this? Metabo- tion? ¶ Toyo ito — In the 1970s everyone was very intro-
polovici šezdesetih studenti su stekli moć i godine 1969. došlo lists believed it was possible to relate a utopian horizon and verted and we tried to find utopia in closed spaces. I thought
je do mnogih demonstracija. Iduće godine, 1970., održan je social reality and that large-scale visions would be imple- At that time I was a little cynical there was no future in architecture in the 1970s, but when the
EXPO u Osaki. Bio sam obeshrabren EXPO izložbom. U 1960- mented. Modern history has proved that architects don’t about lightness. I wanted to 1980s came Japanese cities became interesting again. At that
ima su mnogi arhitekti, metabolisti poput Kenza Tange, imali have the power to design cities as totalities. Yet, do you time everyone would say that Japan entered a so-called social
snove o budućnosti grada, ali kada smo vidjeli EXPO, zapitali think that architects nowadays can act as agents of change, design architecture which has no consumption ‘bubble economy’. And buildings at that time,
smo se: ‘Je li ovo taj san?’. Jednako tako, ekonomska situacija but deploying different strategies? ¶ Toyo ito — Rem weight, like a paper because of the economic changes, had a value no greater than
promijenila se nakon naftnog šoka 1970-ih. U tom kontekstu Koolhaas is my close friend and I wanted to know why he is wastepaper. I think that was a very painful thing for me. The
pokrenuo sam svoj vlastiti, vrlo mali atelje. Nismo radili na interested in the Japanese architectural movement known as value of architecture was just like paper, while land costs were
urbanim projektima, gotovo da i nismo imali projekata osim Metabolism. He said that Japan in the 1960s was quickly mov- very high. Compared with the cost of land, the construction
malih privatnih kuća. Za većinu naše generacije arhitekata, ing from one urban project to another, but in the 1970s very cost was nothing. Some architects worked just with beauty
uključujući Tadaa Anda i Itsuko Hasegawu, situacija je bila mysteriously there was no-one starting any large projects. and paid no attention to use, buildings were demolished and
ista. Osjećao sam da je arhitektonska budućnost nestala, a I know there is a strong reason for this. I graduated from ORIS — Učinili ste pomak od prilično teške betonske arhitek- plots sold. So at that time I was a little cynical about lightness.
ja sam kroz svoje projekte počeo kritizirati društvo. Za našu Tokyo University in 1965, and soon after that I was working ture Japana prema lakoći, prema novom konceptu arhitekture I wanted to design architecture with no weight, like paper.
generaciju mogućnost stvaranja prekrasne utopije u kući, bez in the office of Kikutake Kiyonori, one of the Metabolists who koja je uglavnom sastavljena od montažnih, prefabriciranih ORIS — Experiments with a small scale can be seen in the
obzira koliko ona bila mala, bila je od ključne važnosti; istraži- passed away recently. I worked there for several years and in elemenata poput čeličnih greda, aluminijskih panela… U to White U, whose concept is based on a sequence of spaces
vali smo kamo ide budućnost u malom mjerilu. A to je bilo tako that period the situation in Japan changed significantly. In ste vrijeme uveli novi arhitektonski jezik. Što je bio razlog za with distinct characters. These distinctions were achieved as
zbog napuštanja veza s društvom i traženja načina građenja the 1960s there was so much innovative and experimental početak arhitektonskih istraživanja u tom smjeru? ¶ Toyo encounters with simple architectural elements within a fluid,
u 1970-ima. architecture realized by Kenzo Tange and other Metabolists. ito — U 1970-ima su svi bili introvertirani, a mi smo pokušali continuous undulating space. Could you elaborate a bit more
ORIS — Počeli ste razvijati svoje ideje kada ste se suočili In the second half of the sixties, students gained power and pronaći utopiju u zatvorenim prostorima. Mislio sam da nema on the concept of the White U, because I think it’s recurrent,
s razočaranjem, znajući da su snovi o državi blagostanja iz there were many demonstrations in 1969. The next year, 1970, budućnosti za arhitekturu 1970-ih, ali kada su došle 1980-e, it repeats itself in your work. Would you agree that the White
1960-ih nestali, ali ste uspjeli nezadovoljstvo pretvoriti u kre- there was an Expo in Osaka. I was extremely discouraged japanski gradovi postali su opet zanimljivi. Svatko će reći da je U is a sort of prototype of fluid space which you continued to
ativnost. ¶ Toyo ito — Da. by the Expo. In the 1960s, many architects, Metabolists like Japan tada ušao u razdoblje takozvanog potrošačkog društva explore? ¶ Toyo ito — Freedom is my theme from the White
Kenzo Tange met a dream of the future city, but when we ‘bubble ekonomije’. U to su vrijeme zgrade, zbog ekonomskih U, until now because for me architecture is the experience
saw the Expo we asked ourselves ‘Is this a dream?’ Also, the promjena, imale vrijednost koja nije bila veća od vrijednosti of space, just like walking around an old Japanese garden. A
economic situation changed after the oil shock of the 1970s. papira za otpad. To je bilo vrlo bolno. Vrijednost arhitekture Japanese garden has no strong axes or visual structure. There
In this context I started my own very small atelier. We didn’t bila je baš kao vrijednost papira, dok su troškovi zemljišta bili are many elements, usually around the pond, some trees or
work on urban projects; we had almost no projects except izrazito visoki. U usporedbi s troškovima zemljišta, troškovi a tea house or stepping stones. Each person walking around
Gradski muzej Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro Municipal Museum, Yatsu-
Kumamoto, Japan, 1988. – 91. shiro, Kumamoto, Japan, 1988 – 91
small private houses. For most of our generation of archi- gradnje bili su beznačajni. Neki arhitekti radili su samo na the garden has a different experience, tracing many elements.
tects, including Tadao Ando and Itsuko Hasegawa, the situ- ljepoti i nisu obraćali pozornost na upotrebu, zgrade su bile I like that kind of thought, so when I think about my archi-
ation was the same. I felt the architectural future was gone, srušene, a parcele prodane. Dakle, u to vrijeme sam bio pomalo tectural spaces I always think of some element floating in the
and I started to criticize society through my projects. For our ciničan u vezi lakoće. Htio sam projektirati arhitekturu koja air, and there are no boundaries. It is my ideal of space, but
generation the possibility of making a beautiful utopia in a nema težinu, poput papira. usually architecture has boundaries, must have boundaries. It
house no matter how small was essential; we were exploring ORIS — Eksperimenti u malom mjerilu mogu se vidjeti u kući is a contradiction which is painful for me.
how the future would go in small scale. And that was due to Bijelo U čiji se koncept temelji na sekvenci prostora s jasnim ORIS — In the White U, you created space which is not com-
discarding bonds with society and finding a way of building karakterom. Značajke su postignute kao susreti s jednostav- prehensible at first sight but you have to walk through it. You
in the 1970s. nim, ali neočekivanim arhitektonskim elementima unutar flu- have to discover these subtle and even enigmatic changes.
ORIS — You started to develop your ideas when faced with idnog, kontinuirano zaobljenog prostora. Možete li pojasniti Here is a chair, there is a skylight and then an opening; dif-
disillusion, knowing that the dreams of the 1960s welfare koncept kuće Bijelo U, jer mislim da se on ponavlja u vašem ferent elements gradually appear as the experience of the
state were over, but you’ve managed to turn dissatisfaction radu? Biste li se složili da je Bijelo U vrsta prototipa fluidnog space unfolds. ¶ Toyo ito — That is right. In households
(TIAA) into creativity. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. prostora koji ste nastavili istraživati? ¶ Toyo ito — Sve do the main theme has become sunlight, a light place and a dark

14 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 15
(KT) danas je sloboda moja tema iz Bijelog U, jer je arhitektura za
mene iskustvo prostora, baš kao i šetnja drevnim japanskim
vrtom. Japanski vrt nema jaku os ili vizualnu strukturu. Postoje
mnogi elementi, obično oko jezera, stabla ili paviljon za čaj ili
kamenje u vodi. Svaki čovjek koji se kreće vrtom doživljava
drugačije iskustvo otkrivajući mnoge elemente. Volim tu
vrstu misli, pa kad razmišljam o svojim arhitektonskim pro-
storima, uvijek mislim o nekom elementu koji pluta u zraku,
a ne postoje granice. To je moj ideal prostora. Ali arhitektura
ima granice, mora imati granice. To je kontradikcija koja je za
mene bolna.
ORIS — U Bijelom U stvorili ste prostor koji nije razumljiv
na prvi pogled, već se morate kretati kroz njega. Morate
Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, White U, Nakano-ku, Bijelo U, Nakano-ku, White U, Nakano-ku, otkriti ove suptilne, pa čak i zagonetne promjene. Ovdje je
Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76. Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76 Tokio, Japan, 1975. – 76. Tokyo, Japan, 1975 – 76 stolica, tamo je svjetlarnik, a zatim otvor, različiti elementi se
postupno pojavljuju kako se odvija iskustvo prostora. ¶ Toyo
ito — To je točno. U kućama je glavna tema postala sunčevo
(KT)
svjetlo, svijetlo mjesto i tamno mjesto i opet svijetlo mjesto
i tamno mjesto - to je ritam. Ljudi nastanjuju ritam svjetla i
tame i ritam zraka i zvukova.
place and again a light place and a dark place, it is a rhythm.
People inhabit a rhythm of light and dark and a rhythm of air
and sounds.
ORIS — You used the sound of the wind in the Silver Hut
house and in the Yatsushiro Municipal Museum with the
curved roof. You gradually moved in the direction of the
architecture of sound, light, intense experience of non-phys-
ical space. ¶ Toyo ito — In the 1980s more importance was
given to materials than to light or sound. It was interesting
walking through the urban space. I lost my gravity and got the
impression I was floating in a space of light and sound. In that
city created by light or sound or information I felt as if I was
floating in the sky, in the air. Experiencing that type of city, I
wondered how I could make architecture even lighter. Then
the Tower of Winds project came, and the very light floating
roof museum project.

Srebrna koliba, Nakano-ku, Silver Hut, Nakano-ku,

Tokio, Japan, 1982. – 84. Tokyo, Japan, 1982 – 84 (TIAA)

Bijelo U, Nakano- White U, Nakano-ku,

ku, Tokio, Japan, Tokyo, Japan,
1975. – 76., tlocrt 1975 – 76, plan

Bijelo U, Nakano-ku,
Tokio, Japan, 1975.-76.
White U, Nakano-ku,
Tokyo, Japan, 1975-76

16 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 17
 Toranj vjetrova u
Yokohami, Nishi-ku,
Yokohama, Kanagawa,
Japan, 1986., kolaž
Tower of Winds in
Yokohama, Nishi-ku,
Yokohama, Kanagawa,
Japan, 1986, collage

18 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 19
 ORIS — Koristili ste zvuk vjetra u kući Srebrna koliba ili u
Gradskom muzeju Yatsushiro sa zaobljenim krovom. Postu-
pno ste krenuli u smjeru arhitekture zvuka, svjetla, intenziv-
nog iskustva ne-fizičkog prostora. ¶ Toyo ito — U 1980-ima
je materijalu dana veća važnost nego svjetlu ili zvuku. Bilo je
zanimljivo hodati kroz urbani prostor. Izgubio sam gravitaciju
i dobio dojam da lebdim u prostoru svjetlosti i zvuka. U tom
gradu, stvorenom od svjetla ili zvuka ili informacije, osjećao
sam se kao da plutam na nebu, u zraku. Doživjevši taj tip grada,
pitao sam se kako bih mogao napraviti čak i lakšu arhitekturu.
Tako je došlo do projekta Tower of Winds (Toranj vjetrova) i
projekta vrlo laganog plutajućeg krova muzeja.
Jaje vjetrova, Chuo-Ku, Egg of Winds, Chuo-Ku,
Tokio, Japan, 1991. Tokio, Japan,1991
ORIS — In the 1980s metropolis cityscapes were changing,
becoming a sort of digital media ‘image’, especially in Tokyo.
You included this new experience of urban environment as
media space in the Tower of Winds and Egg of Winds projects.
¶ Toyo ito — Yes. In the 1980s Tokyo was most exciting for
me, and thinking about other cities in the world I was wonder-
ing if Tokyo was the only city in the world that consists of non-
material things like light, sound and information. From there,
I was interested in what kind of architecture would emerge
from those places. That was the time when I was thinking
how to make architecture as light as possible or as transpar-
ent as possible.
(TIAA)
ORIS — U 1980-ima se gradske vizure metropola mijenjaju
i postaju neka vrsta digitalnih medijskih ‘slika’, posebice
u Tokiju. Vi ste ovo novo iskustvo urbanog okruženja kao
medijskog prostora uključili u projekte Tower of Winds i Egg
of Winds (Toranj vjetrova i Jaje vjetrova). ¶ Toyo ito — Da.
Tokyo mi je 1980-ih bio najuzbudljiviji grad i razmišljajući o
drugim gradovima u svijetu pitao sam se je li Tokio jedini grad
na svijetu koji se sastoji od ne-materijalnih stvari poput svjetla,
zvuka i informacije. Zanimalo me kakva će arhitektura nastati
iz tih mjesta. U to vrijeme sam razmišljao kako napraviti što
je moguće lakšu ili što je moguće transparentniju arhitekturu.
ORIS — Vaš interes za novo stanje u metropoli nije bio samo
u vizualnim aspektima, već i u novim životnim stilovima koje
ste prikazali u eksperimentalnim projektima i izložbama
poput Tokyo Nomad Woman (Tokijska žena nomad). ¶ Toyo
ito — To vrijeme i grad temeljen na informacijama bili su mi
ugodni, ali jednoj mladoj slobodnoj ženi grad je bio još ugodniji.
To je razlog zašto je Tokyo Nomad Woman bio ključan projekt.
Gledao sam i proučavao žene kojima je grad bio dom jer im nije
bio potreban pravi dom. Čak i da su imale samo šator, to bi im
bilo dovoljno. Bilo im je važno da jedu vani, piju vani, idu u kino,
urbani život dožive kao uzbuđenje. Sam projekt je bio njihov
gradski stil života. Ta vrsta odnosa i konzumiranje arhitekture
bio mi je novi problem.
ORIS — Postoje li negativni aspekti takvog načina života,
pogotovo kada se promatra fenomen urbanog nomadizma
iz današnje perspektive? Ekstremna mobilnost i nedosta-
tak ukorijenjenosti mogli su izgledati kao oslobođenje, pa
ORIS — Your interest in the new metropolis condition was
not only about the visual aspects but also about the new
and emerging lifestyles which you presented in experimental
projects and exhibitions like Tokyo Nomad Woman. ¶ Toyo
ito — That time and the city founded by information were
enjoyable for me, but for single young women it was even
more enjoyable. That’s why Tokyo Nomad Woman was a criti-
cal project. Looking at and studying those women, the city
was their home so they did not need a real home; even if they
owned just a tent, that would be enough for them. For them
the important thing was eating out, drinking out, going to
movies, urban life as excitement. The project itself was their
city lifestyle. For me that kind of relationship and consumma-
tion of architecture was a new problem.
ORIS — Are there some negative aspects of this way of
life, especially when you observe the phenomenon of urban
nomadism from today’s perspective? Extreme mobility and
lack of rootedness could have seemed like liberation and
even emancipation, but they also undermined the fabric of
local communities and promoted an extremely individualistic
self-perception. So it is quite an ambiguous situation. ¶ Toyo
ito — My feeling was in a sense positive and in a sense nega-
tive. I was enjoying the new aspect of the city but enjoyment
in the new lifestyles was dependent on money. In consumer
societies everything is buyable. People are satisfied spend-
ing money. Young girls were enjoying themselves but they
all spent money so I was critical about that aspect. Anyway,
that kind of lifestyle brought an architecture that was only

Pao I, skica za ‘Pao: obitavalište Pao I, sketch for ‘Pao: A Dwelling

za Tokijsku ženu nomada’, Tokio,
1985. U eksperimentalnom projektu
Obitavalište za tokijsku ženu-nomada,
Ito reagira na socio-urbane dinamike
Tokija 1980-ih koji je tada na vrhuncu
ekonomskog prosperiteta što utječe i
na radikalno nove načine života. Ob-
zirom da se život tokijskih urbanih
žena tada odvija između posla, zabave
i kulture - dakle konzumiranja grada uz
minimalno korištenje stalnog obitavali-
šta - projekt predlaže lagane stambene
jedinice koja uključuje mikro-prosto-
re posebno opremljene za specifične
funkcije koje se obavljaju "kod kuće":
užina, uljepšavanje, intelektualni rad.
of Tokyo Nomad Woman’, Tokyo,
1985 With the experimental project
Dwellings for a Tokyo Nomad Woman
project, Ito reacts to the social and
urbanistic dynamics of 1980s Tokyo.
It was at the peak of its economic
prosperity, which radically influenced
new ways of life. Since the life of urban
women in Tokyo took place between
work, entertainment and culture, i.e.
consuming the city with the minimum
use of a permanent residence, the
project suggests light housing units
containing micro-spaces that wo-
uld be specially equipped for specific
functions that are performed ‘at home’:
snack, styling, intelligence.

20 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 21
 čak i emancipacija, ali su isto tako potkopali tkivo lokalnih Dom za starije, Yatsushiro,
Kumamoto, Japan, 1992. – 94.
zajednica i promovirali iznimno individualističku samoper-
cepciju. Dakle, to je prilično ambivalentna situacija. ¶ Toyo Old People's House in
Yatsushiro, Yatsushiro,
ito — Moj osjećaj je bio u jednom smislu pozitivan, a u dru- Kumamoto, Japan, 1992 – 94
gom negativan. Uživao sam u novom aspektu grada, ali uži-
vanje u novim životnim stilovima je ovisilo o novcu. U potro-
šačkim društvima sve se može kupiti. Ljudi su bili zadovoljni
trošeći novac. Mlade djevojke su uživale, ali su svi oni trošili
novac, pa sam bio kritičan u tom pogledu. U svakom slučaju, ta
je vrsta života dovela do toga da je arhitektura bila zanimljiva
samo površinski, a to je bilo zanimljivo samo po sebi. U to
vrijeme sam napisao članak čiji naslov je bio ‘Ako ne skočimo
u potrošačko more, nova arhitektura neće se dogoditi’. Postoji
japanska poslovica: ‘Ako ne odemo na opasno mjesto, neće se
dogoditi zanimljive stvari...’
ORIS — Godine 1997. napisali ste utjecajan tekst ‘Tarzani u interesting on the surface, and that was interesting in itself. At
medijskoj šumi’ tvrdeći da ljudska bića imaju fizičko tijelo i the time I wrote an article. The title was ‘If We Don’t Jump into
virtualno tijelo koje je, mislim, bitno za vaš rad. Kako je ova the Consumer Sea, New Architecture Will Not Come’. There’s a
ideja o postojanju dva tijela utjecala na vaš arhitektonski rad? Japanese saying: if we don’t go to a dangerous place, interest-
Kako prevesti koncept tih dvaju tijela u artikulaciju prostora? ing things won’t happen...
¶ Toyo ito — Tradicionalno, ljudi posjeduju fizičko tijelo, a iz ORIS — In 1997 you wrote the influential text ‘Tarzans in the
različitih informacija stvaramo tijelo svjesnosti koje je u kom- Media Forest’ arguing that human beings have a real body
binaciji s ovim virtualnom tijelom. Međutim, naše jedinstveno and a virtual body which is, I think, essential for your work.
ljudsko tijelo polako se počelo razdvajati na dva dijela. To je How did this idea of having two bodies affect your architec-
dovelo do raznih socijalnih pitanja i razlika između starog i tural work? How do you translate the concept of these two
novog načina načina razmišljanja. Tijela više nisu mogla biti bodies into the articulation of space? ¶ Toyo ito — Tra-
uspješno kombinirana zajedno. Tu sam se našao u središtu ditionally, humans possess a physical body, and from differ-
opasne situacije, iščekujući da vidim što će se dogoditi. Htio ent information we make a body of consciousness that was
sam vidjeti što će se dogoditi još uvijek koristeći ovo virtu- combined in this virtual body. However, slowly our unified Vatrogasna stanica, (tiaa)
Yatsushiro, Kumamoto,
alno tijelo (koje se počelo razdvajati) i nastaviti graditi. To me human body began to be torn apart into two. This led to a
Japan, 1992. – 95.
dovelo do stvaranja arhitekture koja je u potrazi za lakoćom variety of social issues and differences between the old way
Fire Station in Yatsushiro,
i transparentnošću. and new way of thinking. Bodies could no longer be success- Yatsushiro, Kumamoto,
ORIS — Ovo razmišljanje o fizičkom i virtualnom tijelu fully combined together. Here I found myself in the middle Japan, 1992 – 95
vezano je za pitanje granica. Arhitektura ima granice, ali of a dangerous situation, waiting to see what would occur. I
jedna granica je za fizički prostor, a druga granica vrijedi za wanted to see what would happen, while still using this virtual
virtualno tijelo koje se odnosi na perceptivni ili mentalni pro- body (that began to be torn apart) and continuing to build.
stor. Mislim da ova dvosmislenost između fizičkih i mental- This led me to create architecture in the pursuit of its lightness
nih granica igra važnu ulogu u vašem radu. Riječ je o razlici and transparency.
između doslovne i fenomenološke transparentnosti. ¶ Toyo ORIS — This thinking about the physical and virtual body
ito — Htio sam projektirati laganiju ili transparentniju arhi- relates to the question of boundaries. Architecture has
tekturu, ali sva arhitektura, ako je realizirana, nije protiv gra- boundaries, but there is one boundary for the physical space
vitacije i uvijek ima unutrašnjost i vanjštinu. Dakle, kao što ste and a second boundary for the virtual body related to percep-
rekli, arhitektura ima fizičke granice i virtualne granice, dvije tive space. I think this ambiguity between physical bounda-
granice koje nikada ne mogu biti iste. To je bila vrlo zanimljiva ries and mental boundaries plays an important part in your
situacija, ali imao sam dvojbe. work. It’s about the difference between literal and phenom-
ORIS — U Sendai Medijateci ste koristili različite vrste enal transparency. ¶ Toyo ito — I wanted to design lighter
stakla kako bi se postigle različite razine transparentnosti. or more transparent architecture but all architecture, if it is (tiaa)

22 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 23
 Kombinirali ste transparentne i polutransparentne granice realized, is not against gravity and always has an inside and an
između unutrašnjeg i vanjskog prostora, ali i unutar zgrade. outside. So as you said, architecture has a physical boundary
Jednako tako, istraživali ste refleksije koje su odigrale važnu and a virtual boundary, two boundaries which can never be
ulogu i u vašim ranijim projektima. U mnogim svojim pro- the same. It was a very interesting scene, but I had doubts.
jektima koristite slične učinke iako koristite različite vrste ORIS — In Sendai Mediatheque you used different types of
materijala. Prostor tretirate kao tekućinu tako da dobiva glass in order to achieve different levels of transparency. You
gustoću i može se doživjeti i osjetiti kao gotovo opipljiv were combining transparent and semi-transparent bounda-
fenomen. ¶ Toyo ito — Sedam je katova i obično svaki kat ries between the inside and outside, but also within the
ima različite aktivnosti pa su odvojeni, ali međusobno pove- building. You also explored reflections, which also played
zani cijevima. Uobičajeni redoslijed, prvi kat, drugi kat, treći an important role in your earlier projects. In many of your
kat, nije bio ono što sam htio učiniti, već napraviti promjenu, projects you use similar effects but different types of materi-
primjerice s rupom koja vodi od prvog do trećeg kata. To se als. You treat space like liquid, so the space gets density and
rješenje činilo zanimljivo. one can experience and feel the space as a tangible phenom-
ORIS — Ideja preklapanja programa je već prisutna u vatro- enon. ¶ Toyo ito — There are seven floors, and usually every
Tlocrt 7. kata
gasnoj postaji Yatsushiro gdje ste reinterpretirali tipološke floor’s activity is different and they are separated, but always
7th floor plan konvencije. Podigli ste zgradu i stvorili javni prostor ispod connected to each other by the tubes. The usual order of 1st
nje. To je originalan koncept koji je uveo javni prostor u inače floor, 2nd floor, 3rd floor was not what I wanted to do, but to
zatvorenu tipologiju. Tu postoji kontinuirana putanja tipo- make a change, for example, with a hole leading from the 1st
loškog istraživanja od vatrogasne postaje do Doma umirov- floor to the 3rd floor. That solution had an interesting feel to it.
ljenika u Yatsushiru, a zatim do Medijateke Sendai. Istražili ORIS — The idea of overlapping programmes is already
ste nove načine projektiranja ponekad neočekivanih tipova present in the Yatsushiro Fire Station where you reinter-
javnog prostora ugrađenih u projekte. ¶ Toyo ito — Muzej u preted typological conventions. You lifted the building up
Yatsushiru završio sam 1991. To je privuklo pozornost i postao and created a public space below it. It’s an original concept
sam popularan. Oblikovanje je bilo dobro i svježe, ali program which introduced public space into a normally closed typol-
Tlocrt 1. kata Tlocrt 4. kata je bio vrlo klasičan i nisam ga mogao dotaknuti ili promijeniti. ogy. There is a continuous trajectory of typological research
1st floor plan 4th floor plan Zbog toga sam jako žalio, pa sam nakon toga htio promijeniti from the fire station to the Old People’s House in Yatsushiro
programe za javne zgrade i, kao što ste rekli, za vatrogasnu and then to Sendai. You explored new ways of creating some-
postaju te Dom umirovljenika. To je dvosmislenije i ljudima times unexpected types of public space embedded in the
može biti ugodnije pa su opušteniji u takvom prostoru. Sviđa projects. ¶ Toyo ito — I finished the museum in Yatsushiro
mi se projekt vatrogasne postaje Yatsushiro. Nalazi se pored in 1991. It attracted attention and became popular. The expres-
osnovne škole. Djeca odu do vatrogasne postaje nakon škole, sion was good and fresh but the programme itself was very
a vježbe vatrogasaca su izuzetno uzbudljive, tako da ih sva- classical and I couldn’t touch or change it. It was a big regret
Tlocrt 2. kata Tlocrt 5. kata kodnevno mogu promatrati. Drugi kat je posebno pogodan for me, so after that I wanted to change the programme for
2nd floor plan 5th floor plan za gledanje treninga. Obično vatrogasne postaje nisu u blizini public buildings and, as you said, the fire station and the old
stambenih zgrada jer su uvijek glasne, ali ljudi bi trebali razu- people’s home. That kind of space is more ambiguous, and
mjeti običan svakodnevni, vrlo teški život vatrogasaca. Oni people can be more comfortable and relaxed in it. I like the
kuhaju za sebe i imaju vrlo naporan trening. Dakle, program Yatsushiro Fire Station project, it is next to a primary school.
se ponešto promijenio. I Dom za umirovljenike je isto tako The children went to the fire station after school; the firemen’s
malo bolji od uobičajenog programa. Za mene je to bio dirljiv training is so exciting and they can see it every day. The sec-
i inovativan projekt. Nakon 25 godina napokon sam mogao ond floor especially is a good space for watching the training.
utjecati na programske aspekte. Usually fire stations do not have neighbours because they are
Tlocrt 3. kata Tlocrt 6. kata
3rd floor plan 6th floor plan
ORIS — Bilo je potrebno uložiti mnogo napora u pregova- always noisy, but people should understand the firemen’s ordi-
ranje s različitim stranama uključenim u proces projektiranja nary, everyday lives that are so hard, they cook for themselves
u Sendai. Ako sam u pravu, trebalo je pet godina za izradu and it is tough training. So the programme has changed a little
Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000., projekta. Svaki kat Sendaia je vrsta krajolika: krajolik infor- and the Old People’s House is also a little better than the usual
lijevo: crteži Toyo Ito
macija, krajolik namještaja, krajolik događaja. Korijeni ovog programme; to me it was a touching and innovative project.
Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000, otvorenog kocepta prostora mogu se pratiti od natječaja za After 25 years I could finally influence programmatic aspects.
left: sketches by Toyo Ito

24 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 25
 Medijateka Sendai,
Aoba-ku, Sendai,
Miyagi, Japan,
1995. – 2000.
Sendai Mediatheque,
Aoba-ku, Sendai,
Miyagi, Japan,
1995 – 2000

(TIAA)

26 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 27
 Natječaj za Sveučilišnu
knjižnicu u Parizu, 1992.
University Library Paris,
competition project, 1992
(TIAA)
sveučilišnu knjižnicu u Parizu koja je nehijerarhijski sustav
definiran jednostavnom strukturom i policama. ¶ Toyo
ito — Da. Uvijek želim stvoriti nehijerarhijski prostor jer
arhitektura je obično vrlo stroga i želi zadržati hijerarhiju.
Programi uvijek kontroliraju ljude, a ja želim biti slobodan od
takve kontrole. Kada ljudi hodaju izvan arhitekture ili grada,
slobodniji su, a osobito djeca. Unutar arhitekture ne mogu
trčati, moraju mirno sjediti, ali kad izađu iz kuće ili zgrade
mogu biti slobodni. Htio bih napraviti više prostora gdje ljudi
mogu biti slobodni.
ORIS — Sendai ima prostore koji su prilično ekstrovertni i živi.
To su otvoreni prostori gdje ljudi mogu čitati ili pregledavati
multimediju, ali i lutati okolo i upoznavati jedni druge. Je li
vaša namjera bila da se uključi socijalizacija između različitih
društvenih skupina kako bi se stimulirala integracija između
ljudi? ¶ Toyo ito — Da, moja namjera je bila ne odvajati
društvene skupine jer bi djeca trebala biti ovdje i stari ljudi bi
trebali biti ovdje, ali se dogodilo više nego što sam očekivao.
Čak i u knjižnici mala djeca trče, ponekad su malo bučna, stariji
ljudi po cijeli dan gledaju video i DVD, a do njih se nalazi stu-
dentska računalna radionica. Oni su uvijek pomiješani. Godinu
dana nakon otvaranja čuo sam od osoblja u Medijateci da su se
navike starijih ljudi promijenile. To je bilo jako lijepo.
ORIS — Inovativni strukturalni sustav u Sendaiu je bitan za
prostornu artikulaciju zgrade. Polazna točka projekta bila je
poetična metafora plutajuće alge u tekućem prostoru. Jeste
li razmišljali o strukturnim izazovima od početka? ¶ Toyo
ito — Doista, prvi koncept je bio da treba biti izrađena od
materijala sličnim algama. Međutim, bilo je očito da to nije
moguće napraviti od te vrste mekog materijala. Materijal
28 oris, broj 80, godina 2013
ORIS — It took a lot of effort to negotiate with the different
parties involved in the design process of Sendai. If I’m correct
it took five years to develop the project. Each floor of Sendai
is a sort of landscape: landscape of information, landscape of
furniture, landscape of events. The origins of this open plan
can be traced from the competition for the university library
in Paris which is a non-hierarchical system defined by a sim-
ple layout and the bookshelves. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. I always
want to create non-hierarchical space because architecture is
usually very strict and wants to keep a hierarchy. Programmes
always control people and I always want to be free from such
control. When people are walking outside architecture or the
city, they are freer, especially children. They cannot run inside
architecture, they have to sit quietly, but when they go out
of the house or the building they can be free. I’d like to make
more space where people can be free.
ORIS — Sendai’s spaces are quite extrovert and alive, they
are open spaces where people can read or browse through
multimedia but also wander around and meet each other.
Was it your intention to encourage mixing between diffe-
rent social groups, to stimulate integration between peo-
ple? ¶ Toyo ito — Yes, it was my intention not to separate
social groups, children should be here, old people should be
here, but it happened more than I expected. Even in the library
there are small children running and sometimes being a little
noisy, while older people are watching videos, DVDs, all day
and next to them there is a student computer workshop. They
are always mixing. A year after the opening, I heard from the
staff in Mediatheque that the older people’s habits had chan-
ged. It was very nice. Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000. Sendai Mediatheque, Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan, 1995 – 2000 (tiaa)
oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 29
 nosive konstrukcije morao je biti promijenjen u čvrsti materi-
jal. To je bilo potpuno drugačije od originalne ideje, međutim,
odlasci na gradilište gdje sam vidio lagane, ali čvrste oblike
cijevi potaknuli su me na razmišljanje. Nisam namjeravao
dijeliti sobe zidovima. Umjesto toga, pomoću cijevi sam želio
stvoriti prostor sličan šumi. Namjeravao sam postići stvaranje
slobode u prostoru nalik kretanju kroz šumu cijevi. Na primjer,
svaki čovjek koristi prostor za različite stvari: netko tko želi
čitati knjigu ići će u manji, mirniji prostor, a kad se ljudi žele
okupiti i razgovarati, ići će u velike, široke prostore. Tako je
prostor koncipiran od početka.
ORIS — The innovative structural system in Sendai is essen-
tial for the building’s spatial articulation. The project’s star-
ting point was a poetic metaphor of seaweed floating in liquid
space. Did you think about the structural challenges from the
beginning? ¶ Toyo ito — Indeed, the first concept was that
it should be made from materials similar to seaweed. Howe-
ver, it was obvious that it was not possible to make it from
that kind of soft material. That’s why the structure’s materials
had to be changed to harder materials. That was completely
different from the original idea; however, going to the con-
struction site and seeing the light but strong standing shape
tubes made me rethink. To divide rooms with walls was not
something I intended to do. Rather, by using tubes I wanted
to create a space similar to a forest. Creating freedom in space
that resembles moving through a forest of tubes was what
I intended to do. For example, every person uses space for
different things, someone wanting to read a book wants to
go to a smaller silent space, and when people want to gather
and talk they go to larger, wide spaces, that’s how the space
conception was decided from the beginning.
ORIS — Postoje sličnosti i razlike između Sendai Medijateke ORIS — There is a similarity and a difference between the
i knjižnice Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama (Hachioji kampus). Sendai Mediatheque and Tama Art University Library (Hac-
Obje su nehijerarhijski otvoreni sustavi, ali u Sveučilištu Tama hioji campus). Both are non-hierarchical open systems but in
definirali ste podprostore koristeći se strukturalnim susta- Tama Art University you defined sub-spaces using an arched
vom lukova. Struktura je vizualno vrlo jednostavna i diskretna, structural system. The structure is visually very simple and
ali artikulira prostor. Pretpostavljam da je bilo vrlo zahtjevno discreet but it articulates the space. I imagine it was very
projektirati strukturalni sustav u Sveučilištu Tama jer imate demanding to design the structural system in Tama because
vrlo tanke, lagano zakrivljene zidove s lukovima velikog ras- you have very slim, gently curved walls with arches and big
pona. To ne bi bilo moguće bez sofisticiranih izračuna. ¶ Toyo spans. It couldn’t be possible without sophisticated structural
ito — Sendai je također bio takav... Građevinski inženjer koji calculations. ¶ Toyo ito — Sendai was also like that... The
je radio na Sendai i na Tami je Mutsuro Sasaki. On je odli- structural engineer who worked on Sendai and Tama is Mut-
čan i uvijek odmah razumije ono što želim učiniti. Vrlo sam suro Sasaki. He is excellent and always understands immedia-
zadovoljan njime. Kao što ste rekli, Tama je vrlo jednostavna, tely what I want to do, I am very happy with him. As you said,
ali u određenom smislu također i složenija. U Tami postoji Tama is very simple but in a sense also more complicated. In
mnogo vijugavih linija, svaki prostor je artikuliran. U Sendai Tama there are many winding lines, each space is articulated. In
uvijek postoji kontinuirani prostor; Tama je pojednostavljena Sendai it is always continuous space; Tama is simplified by the
pomoću lukova, ali imate i artikulaciju i kontinuitet. To mi je arches but you have both articulation and continuation. That
uzbudljivije. Prostor je blago artikuliran, ali funkcija, zaobljeni is more exciting for me. The space is a little articulated, but
namještaj, čine prostor kontinuiranim. the function, rounding furniture, continues the space again.

Medijateka Sendai,
Medijateka Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai,
Aoba-ku, Sendai, Miyagi, Japan,
Miyagi, Japan, 1995. – 2000.,
1995. – 2000., presjek crtež Toyo Ito

Sendai Mediatheque, Sendai Mediatheque,

Aoba-ku, Sendai, Aoba-ku, Sendai,
Miyagi, Japan, Miyagi, Japan,
1995 – 2000, section 1995 – 2000, sketch
by Toyo Ito

30 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 31
 ORIS — Sve ste više zainteresirani za arikulaciju poda. U Tami
je prizemlje nagnuto, a prvi kat je horizontalan. Iskustva pro-
stora su različita, a postigli ste to koristeći vrlo jednostavne
načine. ¶ Toyo ito — Nagib prizemlja je isti kao nagib na
okolnom terenu. Napravili smo nagib unutar zgrade, a stu-
denti mogu proći kroz zgradu. Da je pod horizontalan, okolina
i arhitektura bili bi razdvojeni.
ORIS — Prizemlje je dio prolaza niz brdo. Gledajući iznutra,
gotovo da se ne može reći gdje je granica zgrade jer su struk-
turni elementi pročelja i interijera isti. Staklo je vrlo tanko,
ima samo jedan sloj. Kada ste u interijeru, niste potpuno
sigurni koji luk je unutra, a koji definira vanjski perimetar.
¶ Toyo ito — Da, neki ljudi su rekli da je to granica. Staklo
je uvijek granica, ali u mom konceptu to je luk, linija luka je
kontinuirana, više se širi. Prostor se širi koliko je to moguće,
ali na kraju mora negdje biti prekinut.
ORIS — You are increasingly interested in treatment of the
floor. In Tama the ground floor is sloped, while the first floor
is horizontal. The experiences of spaces are different, and you
achieved that using very simple means. ¶ Toyo ito — The
slope on the ground is the same slope as the surrounding
terrain. We made a slope inside the building and the student
can go through the building. If it was horizontal, the surroun-
dings and the architecture would be separated.
ORIS — The ground floor is partly passageways down the
hill. Looking from inside, you almost can’t tell where the
building’s boundary is because the structural elements of the
façade and interior are the same. The glass is very thin, it has
only one sheet, so it is ambiguous when you are inside the
space, you are not completely sure which arch is inside and
which is defining the exterior perimeter. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes,
some people said it’s a boundary, the glass is always a boun-
dary but in my concept it is the arch, the arch line is continuing,
more extending. The space spreads as far as it can, but in the
end it has to be cut somewhere.

Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama Art University Library

Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, (Hachioji campus), Hachioji,
Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007. Tokyo, Japan, 2004 – 2007 (ipi)

(ipi) Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama Art University Library (Hachioji Knjižnica Umjetničkog sveučilišta Tama Art University Library (Hachioji
Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan, Tama (Hachioji kampus) Hachioji, campus), Hachioji, Tokyo, Japan,
Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007. 2004 – 2007 Tokio, Japan, 2004. – 2007., presjek 2004 – 2007, section

Floor
Task Lighting Raised Access Floor Asphalt Prepared Roofing Book Holder + Duct Cover
+Tile Carpet 500x500 t=10 +Heat Insulation
Indirect Lighting Disc Expand-metal Screen Air Conditioning (Outlet) Fire Protection Screen +Concrete Panel Gutter

1/40 Void Slab

3600
Float Glass t=12
Ceiling & Wall (Flat)
Exposed Concrete
+Hydrophobizing Agent Finish
Float Glass t=15
(Curved) M2FL
FCU Open Stack & Reading Laboratory Closed Stack Carrel FCU

Tempered Glass t=5

2400
(For Fire Crew)

2FL

Folding Doors (Gallery Carry-in Entrance)

Floor
Exposed Concrete
+Toughening Agent Finish
17100
5275

Cafe Temporary Theatre Arcade Gallery Grating Cover

Gutter

Air Conditioning (Outlet)

1/20 1FL
(Office Floor Level)
Grating Cover
Seismic Isolation Clearance
W=500
3675

Seismic Isolation Pit Machine Compact Stack

Gutter
B1FL

Gutter
2150

FCU (Hung Under Floor) Pendant Lighting Air Duct

Slip Bearing AHU Seismic Isolator Upper Lighting Compact Stack

Air Conditioning (return)

D 4 6 10 1 7 9 B

32 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 33
 ORIS — One of the effects you wanted to achieve is to have Zgrada TOD’S Omotesando, Shibuya-ku,
Tokio, Japan, 2002. – 2004.
identical finishes of the inside and outside surfaces. That
TOD’S Omotesando Building, Shibuya-ku,
is what you introduced in TOD’S Omotesando Building for
Tokyo, Japan, 2002 – 2004
example. In Tama it is the same. What is the reason for that?
(npi)
¶ Toyo ito — Until Sendai the transparency was just glass,
but if I used more glass it looked to me as if it was a wall and
I wanted to find another method for treatment of inside and
outside. In TOD’S, the wall outside and inside is completely
the same. So, when people go inside they feel as if they are
outside. It was a new discovery for me. So after that I tried it
again in Mikimoto Ginza 2.
ORIS — The design process in Mikimoto was quite complex
because you were exploring where to place openings and
then you were calculating the load stress in the wall and
then you would place another opening so the layout of the
façade is not totally random; it is a combination of random
and structural calculations. The arrangement of the openings
is not arbitrary but follows the inner logic of the wall. A simi-
lar synthesis of free form and perfect structural logic was
achieved by Gaudi. You can design optimized free forms more
efficiently today because you have new computer tools and
software. ¶ Toyo ito — Yes. Until 20 years ago, we were ORIS — Jedan od učinaka koji ste željeli postići je da unu-
unable to proceed with plans to make random buildings just trašnje i vanjske površine imaju identične završetke. To ste,
like that. However, now we can use technology and run simu- primjerice, uveli u zgradi TOD’S Omotesando. U Tami je isti
lations to predict and fix any unpredictable problem using the slučaj. Što je tome razlog? ¶ Toyo ito — Do Sendaia je tran-
laws of physics. Looking at Gaudi, we find it interesting that sparentnost bila samo u staklu, ali da sam koristio više stakla,
he needed ten years to complete something that nowadays izgledalo bi kao da je zid, pa sam htio pronaći neki drugi način
with simulation would take only one week. za rješavanje unutrašnjeg i vanjskog. U TOD’S-u je zid izvana
i iznutra potpuno isti. Dakle, kada ljudi uđu, osjećaju se kao
da su vani. To mi je bilo novo otkriće. Kasnije sam to pokušao
ponovno u Mikimoto Ginza 2.
ORIS — Proces projektiranja u Mikimotou je bio prilično
složen jer ste istraživali razmještaj otvora, a onda su se izra-
čunavala opterećenja u zidu i potom bi smjestili drugi otvor
tako da izgled pročelja nije posve slučajan. To je kombinacija
slučajnosti i statičkog izračuna. Raspored otvora nije proizvo-
MIKIMOTO Ginza 2, ljan, već slijedi unutarnju logiku zida. Sličnu sintezu slobodne
Chuo-ku, Tokio, Japan,
forme i savršene konstruktivne logike postigao je Gaudi.
2003. – 2005.
Danas je moguće učinkovitije projektirati optimizirane slo-
MIKIMOTO Ginza 2,
Chuo-ku, Tokyo, Japan, bodne forme jer postoje novi računalni alati i softveri. ¶ Toyo
2003 – 2005 ito — Da. Do prije dvadeset godina nismo bili u mogućno-
sti tako lako projektirati zgrade s kompleksnim strukturama.
Međutim, sada možemo koristiti tehnologiju i koristiti simu-
lacije kako bismo predvidjeli i popravili neki nepredviđeni pro-
blem koristeći zakone fizike. Gledajući Gaudija, zanimljivo je
da je njemu bilo potrebno deset godina da dovrši nešto za što
(tiaa) bi nam danas sa simulacijom bilo potrebno samo tjedan dana.

34 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 35
 ORIS — Je li ovo iskustvo sa slobodnim oblikovanjem verti- ORIS — Did this experience with the free shaping of vertical Zgrada za Island City
Central Park GRIN
kalnih konstruktivnih elemenata utjecalo na nove koncepte structural elements influence the new concepts of three-
GRIN, Higashi-ku,
trodimenzionalnog zaobljenih prostora koje ste upotrijebili dimensional space you introduced in the Taichung Metro- Fukuoka, Fukuoka,
u zgradi Taichung Metropolitan Opera i drugim projektima? politan Opera House and other projects? I would say that Japan, 2002. – 2005.
Rekao bih da je ovo iskustvo vertikalnih elemenata omogu- this experience of vertical elements enabled you to start Building for Island
City Central Park GRIN
ćilo početak istraživanja i korištenja prostora poput špilja. with the exploration and investigation of cave-like spaces.
GRIN, Higashi-ku,
¶ Toyo ito — Koristeći tehnologiju računalnih simulacija ¶ Toyo ito — Using the technology of computer simulations Fukuoka, Fukuoka,
koja je dostupna danas, u mogućnosti smo napraviti složenu available today, we are able to make complex three-dimen- Japan, 2002 – 2005
trodimenzionalnu arhitekturu. Sada možemo osmisliti i izra- sional architecture. Now we can design and calculate almost
čunati gotovo bilo što, ali nije jednostavno tako nešto izve- anything but to make something like that is very difficult,
(tiaa)
sti. Na kraju je onaj koji gradi čovjek. Analiza je sada moguća, because eventually the last person making the structure is
ali izgradnja je vrlo teška. Nije tako skupo, ali uvijek iziskuje human. Analysis is now possible but construction is very dif- Zgrada za Island City
Central Park GRIN
borbu s građevinskom tvrtkom. Možda će u bliskoj budućnosti ficult. It’s not so expensive but it always involves fights with
GRIN, Higashi-ku,
u izgradnji pomoći robotska tehnologija. the construction company. Maybe robot technology will help Fukuoka, Fukuoka,
construction in the near future. Japan, 2002. – 2005.
Building for Island
City Central Park GRIN
GRIN, Higashi-ku,
Fukuoka, Fukuoka,
Japan, 2002 – 2005
The New ‘Real’ in Architecture, retrospektivna izložba The New ‘Real’ in Architecture, Toyo Ito retrospective
Toya Ita, Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, Tokio, Japan, 2006. exhibition, Tokyo Opera City Art Gallery, Tokyo, Japan, 2006

(npi) (nc)

36 oris, broj 80, godina 2013 oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 37
 Godinu dana nakon otvaranja, čuo
sam od osoblja u Medijateci da su se
navike starijih ljudi promijenile.
To je bilo jako lijepo
Metropolitan Opera Taichung,
Taichung, Tajvan, 2005.,
maketa – konceptualna faza
38 oris, broj 80, godina 2013
One year after the opening, I heard
from the staff in Mediatheque that
older people’s habits had changed.
It was very nice
Taichung Metropolitan Opera House,
Taichung, Taiwan, 2005,
model – conceptual phase
oris, number 80, year 2013
ORIS — Što je razlog za uvođenje ovog novog prostornog
koncepta, za više organsku arhitekturu koja sliči Kieslerovoj
Beskrajnoj kući? Zašto ste počeli s istraživanjem arhitekture
koja nalikuje krajoliku gdje podovi više nisu ravni, već savi-
nuti? ¶ Toyo ito — To je tema o granicama. Kada idemo na
operu ili na koncert, obično ulazimo u zgradu izvana, hodamo
po podu i uđemo u dvoranu. Pitao sam se je li moguće promije-
niti taj proces, da uđemo u dvoranu, ali još uvijek imamo osje-
ćaj da smo vani. Htio sam osmisliti takvu arhitekturu. To mi je
bio izazov. Figurativno rečeno, unutar ljudskog tijela postoji
mnogo cijevi, a kad ljudi jedu hranu, ona je u njihovom želucu.
Je li taj želudac unutra ili izvana? Možemo reći da je oboje.
ORIS — Surađivali ste s Andreom Branzijem. Kako se to
dogodilo? Je li to bilo zato što cijenite njegov rad ili je on vama
prišao? Kako ste se upoznali? ¶ Toyo ito — Kad smo zajedno
radili, nacrtao bih neke skice, a on bi mi uvijek objasnio koncept
skice. Bio je to vrlo dobar odnos. Moje zamagljene vizije rastu-
mačene su mi riječima, a zatim su mi te misli postale jasne. Kad
dizajnira proizvode, on je genij. Uvijek uživa u procesu.
Toyo Ito, Intervju
ORIS — What is the reason for introducing this new spa-
tial concept, for more organic architecture which resembles
Kiesler’s Endless House for example? Why did you start with
the exploration of landscape like architecture where the
floor is no longer flat but folds? ¶ Toyo ito — This is an
issue about boundaries. Usually when we go to the opera or
a concert, we enter the building from the outside, walk on
the floor and enter the hall. I wondered if it would be possible
to change that process, to be able to enter the hall but still
have the feeling that we are outside. I wanted to make that
kind of architecture, that was a challenge for me. Figuratively
speaking, inside the human body there are a lot of tubes, and
when humans eat food that food is in their stomach. Is that
stomach inside or outside? We can say it is both.
ORIS — You collaborated with Andrea Branzi. How did it
happen, was it because of an affinity to his work or did he
approach you, how did you meet? ¶ Toyo ito — When we
worked together I drew some image and he always explained
the concept of my image. It was a very good relationship. My
cloudy visions were explained to me with words, and then
those thoughts became clear to me. When he designs pro-
ducts, he is a genius. He always enjoys the ride.
Metropolitan Opera
Taichung, Taichung,
Tajvan, 2005., presjeci
Taichung Metropolitan
Opera House, Taichung,
Taiwan, 2005, sections
toyo Ito, Interview 39

ORIS — Krećete se u smjeru ne-euklidske arhitekture. Raz-
mišljate li o tome kao o naprednom obliku javnog prostora?
Mislite li da će bogatije prostorne konfiguracije potaknuti
više življih društvenih susreta? Kako protumačiti ovaj novi
tip prostora? Kako će ga ljudi doživjeti? ¶ Toyo ito — Pod-
zemna konstrukcija zgrade Taichung Metropolitan Opera je
završena i sada se ide prema gore, iznad površine tla, a ja to
mogu osjetiti sada, vrlo djelomično, unutar trodimenzional-
nog prostora. Mogu zamisliti ove prostore i oni su stvarno flu-
idni. Naravno, možda jedno staklo odvaja unutrašnje i vanjsko.
U velikom parku je to tako da ljudi hodaju i nesvjesno prošeću
unutra i iskuse stepenice, predvorje i ulazni prostor. Možda
je to potpuno drugačiji tip ulaznog prostora i predvorja, to
je tekući prostor.
ORIS — Testirali ste pregibanje horizontalnih ploha u Island
City Central Park GRIN GRIN u Fukuoki, ali ovoga puta je krov
bio presavijen. Počeli ste s istraživanjem krajolika kao arhi-
tekture. Mislite li da se u vašem radu arhitektura i krajolik sve
više približavaju? ¶ Toyo ito — Da, to je moj ideal prostora.
Kad sam imao retrospektivnu izložbu, dizajnirao sam valoviti
pod i svi ljudi, posebice djeca, ušli su u taj prostor i počeli
trčati ​​ili sjediti. Pregibi su prostorna konfiguracija u kojoj se
ljudi osjećaju kao da su vani. Uvijek želim stvoriti prostor koji
‘osobu odvodi van’.
ORIS — Iznimne su ove vrste naprednih projekata i novih
prostornih koncepata. No 99% izgrađene okoline je vrlo
jednostavno i odvija se na uobičajen način. Ako zamislimo
da je cijeli grad izgrađen kao kontinuirani fluidni prostor, to
bi moglo biti u koliziji s generičkom povijesti grada. Možda
gradovi trebaju neutralno tkivo. Mislite li da grad može biti
projektiran kao beskrajan valoviti prostor ili ovaj novi koncept
treba biti rezerviran samo za javne zgrade ili specifične situa-
cije? ¶ Toyo ito — U mom umu prostor se uvijek se nastavlja
i širi, ali svaka arhitektura ima granicu. Granica za mene nije
pročelje, pitanje granica je pitanje društva. U mom umu ne
postoji kraj. To je na neki način apstraktni prostor. Ne mogu
zamisliti da cijeli grad postaje jedan valoviti prostor; međutim,
grad i krajobrazne strukture su fleksibilniji i mogli bi se proširiti
i postati više nalik starijim zgradama.
40 oris, broj 80, godina 2013
Muzej arhitekture, Imabari, Imabari, Ehime, Japan, 2008. – 2011.
Museum of Architecture, Imabari, Imabari, Ehime, Japan, 2008 – 2011
ORIS — You are moving in the direction of non-Euclidian
architecture. Do you think about it as an advanced form of
public space? Do you think that richer spatial configurations
are going to stimulate more vibrant social encounters? What
is the reading of this new type of space, how are people going
to experience it? ¶ Toyo ito — The underground construc-
tion of Taichung Metropolitan Opera House is finished and
now it is going up above the ground and I can feel now, very
partially, inside the three-dimensional spaces. I can imagine
these spaces and they are really fluid. Of course maybe one
glass cuts inside and outside. It is in a big park so people walk
around the park and unconsciously walk through the inside
and there are steps and the experience of the foyer and the
hall. Maybe it’s a completely different type of entrance hall
and foyer, it’s a liquid space.
ORIS — You tested undulating floors in the Island City Cen-
tral Park GRIN GRIN in Fukuoka but it was the roof which
was folded. At that point you started the exploration of this
landscape like architecture. Do you think that architecture
and landscape are increasingly coming together in your work?
¶ Toyo ito — Yes, it is my ideal of space. When I had a retros-
pective exhibition I designed a wavy floor and everyone, espe-
cially children, went inside that space and started running or
sitting. Webbing is a spatial configuration in which people feel
as though they are outside. I always want to create a space
which ‘takes one outside’.
ORIS — These types of advanced projects and new spatial
(da)
concepts are exceptional. But 99% of the built environment
is very simple and done in an ordinary way. If we think of a ORIS — Istraživali ste i projektirali prostore koji su fluidni i ORIS — You research and design spaces which are fluid and
whole city built as continuous fluid space it could be in colli- pokušali ste se odmaknuti od konvencionalnog pojma gra- try to move away from the conventional notion of bounda-
sion with the generic history of the city, maybe cities do need nica. Možemo li se odnositi prema tom konceptu kao odjeku ries. Can we relate to this concept as an echo of Japanese arc-
this neutral tissue. Do you think that a city can be constitu- japanske graditeljske tradicije gdje se prostor slobodno pro- hitectural tradition where space freely extends in every direc-
ted as endless undulating space, or this new concept should teže u svakom smjeru? ¶ Toyo ito — Stare japanske zgrade tion? ¶ Toyo ito — Old Japanese buildings had a separation
be reserved only for public buildings or specific situations? imale su razgraničenje unutarnjeg i vanjskog. One nikada nisu between outside and inside. They are never separated by one
¶ Toyo ito — In my mind space is always continuing and odvojene jednim čvrstim zidom, nego umjesto toga s puno strong wall, but instead with lots of light partitions. I beli-
expanding, but all architecture has a boundary. The boundary lakih pregrada. Vjerujem da takav način gradnje ima buduć- eve that way of building has a future in today’s architecture.
is not a façade for me, it’s just social. In my mind there is no nost u današnjoj arhitekturi. Japanska moderna arhitektura bila Japanese modern architecture was influenced by Europeans
ending. It is in a way an abstract space. I cannot imagine a je pod utjecajem Europljana posljednjih sto godina. Zatim se for the last hundred years. Then the style of making buildings
whole city becoming one undulated space; however, city and način izgradnje zgrade promijenio, ako govorimo o razdvajanju changed, talking about separation of inside and outside and
landscape structure are more flexible and could expand and vanjskog i unutarnjeg i odvajanju prostora. Ipak vjerujem da je separation of spaces. Still I believe that influence is now over.
become more like older buildings here. taj utjecaj sada gotov.
oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 41
 ORIS — Utjecali ste na novu generaciju japanskih arhite-
kata: Kazuyo Sejima radila je s vama, puno ste pomogli Sou
Fujimotu, mnogi ljudi prošli su kroz vašu školu. Prepozna-
jete li sličnosti između njihovih koncepata i svojeg pristupa?
Mislite li da postoji takva stvar kao što je Ito škola? ¶ Toyo
ito — Nisam toga svjestan. Što se tiče Kazuyo Sejime i Aki-
hisa Hirata, oni su radili u mojem uredu, pa kad bismo nešto
projektirali zajedno, dosta smo raspravljali. Mislim da nije
bilo hijerarhije u radu s njima, čak ni kada su tek stigli u ured.
Naravno, prvo bih im objasnio osnovnu koncepciju novog pro-
jekta, a nakon toga su imali slobodu napraviti crteže, skice i u
toj fazi nije bilo hijerarhije ako sam osjećao da su ideje novaka
bile dobre. Sljedećeg dana ponovno smo mijenjali, mijenjali,
mijenjali i mijenjali na vrlo demokratski način.
ORIS — Inicirali ste i projektirali Arhitektonski muzej u Ima-
bari. Vaše aktivnosti uvijek su bile vezane za komuniciranje
putem arhitekture - izlaganjem, pisanjem, podučavanjem.
To nije bila samo praksa. Koja je bila vaša namjera s muze-
jom i u kakvoj je vezi sa suvremenim problemima? ¶ Toyo
ito — U muzejima u Japanu nema arhitekture pa sam želio
da šira publika koja posjeti muzej nešto sazna o suvremenoj
arhitekturi. Za mene arhitektura nije samo projektiranje i rea-
liziracija vlastitih radova. O arhitekturi raspravljam s javnosti,
studentima, s djecom, o tome kako pomoći nekom lokalnom
području, području pogođenom tsunamijem, mojem muzej-
skom području. Želimo graditi zgrade u jedinstvu jedne misli.
Što je arhitektura i za koga je radimo, to su temeljna pitanja,
a odgovaramo na njih raznim aktivnostima. Posjećivao sam
područje pogođeno tsunamijem, pogotovo Kamaishi, više od
pet puta mjesečno, i razgovarao sam mnogo puta s ljudima
koji su izgubili svoje domove. Oni razmišljaju o svojoj zajednici,
svojoj budućnosti, sigurnosti i gradu čak i više od lokalnih vla-
sti. Kad razgovaram s njima, predstave mi svoja razmišljanja i
vizije o svojoj budućnosti i kako su je zamislili. To je stvarno
uzbudljivo jer oni ne očekuju financijsku pomoć od mene, nego
zahtijevaju da projektiram njihovu budućnost.
42 oris, broj 80, godina 2013
ORIS — You have influenced a new generation of Japanese
architects: Kazuyo Sejima worked with you, you helped Sou
Fujimoto a lot, many people went through your school. Can
you recognize similarities between their concepts and your
approach? Do you think that there is such a thing as the Ito
school? ¶ Toyo ito — I am not conscious of that. As for
Kazuyo Sejima and Akihisa Hirata they were working in my
office so when we designed something together, we discussed
a lot. I think I had no hierarchy working with them even if
they were freshmen. Of course, first I tell them the very basic
conceptual image of the new project and after that they are
very free to make drawings, sketches and at that stage there’s
no hierarchy if I feel the freshmen’s ideas are nice. The next
day, we are changing again, changing, changing, changing in
a very democratic way.
ORIS — You initiated and designed the architectural museum
in Imabari. Your activities have always been about communi-
cating architecture – exhibiting, writing, teaching, it was not
only practice. What was your intention and how is it related
to your contemporary concerns? ¶ Toyo ito — There is
no architecture in museums in Japan so I want that general
audience visiting the museum to know about contemporary
architecture. For me, architecture is not only designing and
realizing my works, but also discussing them with the general
public, students, children, how to help the local area, the tsu-
nami area, my museum area. We want to construct buildings
in a unity of one thought. What is architecture and for whom
are we making it, they are the fundamental questions and by
various activities we are answering those questions. I visited
the tsunami area, especially Kamaishi more than five times
every month and I talked many times with people who lost
their houses. They lost their homes and not just their homes,
they are thinking about their community, their future, safety
and the city, even more than the local government. When I
talk to them they present me with their thoughts and vision
about their future and how they imagine it. For me that is
really exiting since they don’t expect financial aid from me,
instead they are asking me to design their future.
oris, number 80, year 2013 Toyo Ito, Intervju toyo Ito, Interview 43