What was the biggest impetus to

buying Twitter I grew I was

growing increasingly concerned
that there was a lack of freedom of
speech and freedom of expression
there was a lot of censorship and a
lot of censorship with some of it
was obvious a lot of it was hidden
the average person is terrified
effectively what they're saying is
they want the public to be misled
and uninformed I mean the media
is going to give you generally the
dramatized Cliff Notes version of
reality I'll be honest of all the
things you do and all the
companies you run the one thing
that does concern me and I know
concerns a lot of people out there
so I do have to bring it up which is
neuralink uh we put a chip in your
 brain to control your mind yeah
okay all right concerns not
alleviated yeah um Jump Right In
step right up who wants one it's not
every day you get to talk to a
Visionary like Elon Musk I'm
lucky to be able to learn from him
on the podcast and off air when the
cameras are off people feel more
comfortable sharing their personal
strategies Millionaires and
billionaires invest in assets to
counter inflation in Crazy Market
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talked about the little-known
power of physical assets real
tangible Investments that can hold
their value during a crisis but the
real story a group of everyday
investors have already seen net
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CD what's up ladies and gentlemen
boys and girls around the world I
would like to welcome you back to
the real talk with zooby podcast
today's episode this is a glorious
day this is a magical episode we
have got on a legendary guest
without further Ado the one and
only Elon Musk welcome welcome
to the show man thank you so good
to have you on so good to meet
you yeah likewise it's amazing
person I've interact a lot we've
interacted a lot online uh but it's
nice to be in present absolutely
first things first man how how are
you doing uh pretty good I mean
it's got a lot going on obviously um
so I I just actually just got in from
uh straw base Texas and we're
building the Starship rocket so
getting ready for another launch uh
hopefully get to orbit this time uh
 probably be ready in about six to
eight weeks that's awesome that's
awesome first question I have to
ask of course is just how do you
manage this all man you do so
many things and yeah just
managing a single one of the
companies that you do is a
gargantuan task so how do you
even manage all this on a day-to-
day basis I mean with great
difficulty I mean I work a lot um
and um I have to say the last six
months I've been uh extra difficult
um because of the Twitter
workload I think things are
reasonably stable at Twitter at this
point um obviously Linda yacrino's
joined and I think she'll be a big
help and um so I'll still be spending
a fair bit of time at Twitter but um
it won't be occupying as much time
um and um you know that now that
we're sort of financially more or
less stable uh it's not like an
emergency situation um but we
still want to rapidly improve the
product uh especially on the video
side and um there's a lot of great
things that are going to come out
um obviously payments down the
road um maybe later this year um
and uh improving the uh direct
message stuff um obviously
enabling full encryption um and
video and voice calls uh I just
basically solving like basically if
there's something you want to do
you can do it on the sort of you
know X everything app or you can
leave easily and do it somewhere
else so you brought up x x is
 something that you've been having
in mind for a long time tell me tell
me 20 years yeah tell me the story
about xx.com well I mean way
back in the day the idea was for X
or x.com to be an all-income thing
um in that financial services
company um or I thought kind of
in like a um infinite information
Theory way to be a to be the most
efficient uh database for the
information that is money um the
way that money currently works is
from a practical standpoint it's um
still mostly run on mainframes you
know that's still a thing for banks
it's mostly written in Cobalt it's still
mostly batch processing uh so
actually the financial system is
very slow um it's not secure you've
got all these heterogeneous
complex databases so if you have a
real-time homogeneous database
that is just like fundamentally more
more efficient and doesn't um have
all the expenses of Bank buildings
all over the place and Bank
branches and ATMs which are
increasingly kind of redundant it
can operate way more efficiently
and so um essentially if if Done
Right the X would be would serve
people's financial needs to such a
degree that over time it would
become I don't know maybe half of
the Global Financial system wow
or some big number I'm not sure
what the number is but pretty big
um so it would be by far the
biggest sort of financial institution
but like I said not not really in the
way that people are used to
 thinking about uh Banks just um
just the most efficient database for
the thing that is money um I said
like at least amount of fraud uh
everything's real time um and if it
involves money in any way it can
be dealt with seamlessly on one
one location um and then in
addition you've got the sort of
social media element which is also
information it's people sharing
information of various kinds
whether it's text video pictures um
voice uh and um and and so uh
okay so both money and and what
we call social media really
information exchange um and I
think there's a potential there to
make a product that is really quite
compelling like combines all these
things simplifies people's lives um
is more you know cost efficient for
the average person so you know
you don't have a minimum number
of fees and whatnot so um so I
think this there's just a lot of a lot
of potential to create some like the
kind of the ultimate uh app or
system website whatever I hear
that and so with the long-term goal
be for Twitter to evolve into X
over time so it would just be fully
integrated yeah I mean I said at the
time of the acquisition like I I
could do this independently and
create it from scratch um or what I
thought was acquiring Twitter
would probably accelerate progress
by three or four years maybe five
years I hear that what was the
biggest impetus to buying Twitter
what was the what was the thing
that made you want to do that well
like so there is a sort of um you
know for a long time I want to do
sort of the uh for createx export um
and so that's that's one element of it
I also thought that I grew I was
growing increasingly concerned
that there was a lack of freedom of
speech and freedom of expression
um and that the there was a lot of
censorship and a lot of censorship
with some of it was obvious larva
was hidden yeah um and I thought
that's really that was really
unhelpful and unhealthy for public
discourse you know so how are
people say in America in a
democracy supposed to make the
right decision if they don't have the
right information you know if
they're being misled or important
 information has been withheld
which obviously was the case you
know in the infamous uh you know
100 by the laptop situation
everyone knows about that but
there are there are thousands of
other smaller situations like that
um so effectively Twitter and
frankly uh Google and YouTube
and whatnot Facebook I mean they
put their thumb on the scale of
Elections worldwide and they have
done for some time so and a lot of
times it's so subtle you don't even
really notice it um frankly Googles
might be the most pernicious in
that uh it's very easy for them to to
slightly de-rank a search so it's on
page like four or five like if for if
you're looking for something and
um nobody ever goes there so it's
 not gone it's just not on page one
yeah and um you know the old
joke used to be that uh what's the
best place to hide a dead body
would be the second place second
page of Google search results and
nobody who goes there yeah so um
so I think for in order to have a
solid Bedrock for democracy and
frankly even if the country's not
strictly speaking democracy it's
still good for the people to know
what's going on yeah um we have
to have at least one platform that
you can count on that is maximum
truth seeking and um and that's uh
what the goal is here with with X
Twitter is um maximum truth
seeking um really allowing voice
of voices to be heard I mean unless
someone's doing something like
 just flat out illegal um then um
they should be allowed to say what
they want to say and uh free speech
is only relevant if it's if if we allow
people that you don't like to say
things you don't like otherwise it
loses all meaning um and at least in
the US like the the first amendment
is is pointless um so and if you
don't let people you don't like say
things that they don't like and you
censor them it's only a matter of
time before that census sense of
that censorship is turned upon you
yeah you know so that was the
essential wisdom in the First
Amendment um and um and so
you can kind of tell that it's
working if you see people that you
don't like saying you don't like
that's a good sign actually yeah you
 know something I've noticed
traveling all around the world and
especially I mean recently I've
been to all over the US of course
spent time in the UK I went to
Australia recently and it seems like
in all these countries you know the
these Western Nations that are
supposed to be you know so-called
liberal democracies people are
supposed to be able to speak freely
and so on the average person is
terrified to speak their mind it
seems that the concept of freedom
of speech has really been pushed to
the side and marginalized it's not
it's something that is supposed to
be a Bedrock of our societies and
Nations and cultures but something
I found incredibly interesting for
example when you bought Twitter
 was that people were not afraid
that they would be censored but
they were afraid that their
opposition yeah especially people
more on the right side I mean I
would not be censored they were
afraid of the freedom of speech
aspect so how did we get there I
mean I think that people like like
that should really look at
themselves in the mirror and say
like what are you actually asking
here you want censorship you want
things to be you want information
to be withheld from the public
even though it's totally legal um
you effectively what they're saying
is they want the public to be misled
and and uninformed of of all sides
of the issue that's obviously
morally wrong yeah um so but
 yeah the situation where basically
all the social media companies are
based in uh the Bay Area or I guess
if you add snap it's LA but the
most influential ones are all in the
Bay Area so they have a very sort
of far left position especially in
San Francisco I mean it doesn't get
more far left than Francisco
Berkeley it's like you know you
know exploring the city today and
uh yeah I noticed that I felt that
yeah I mean you can see like
there's some pretty rough parts of
the city um you know people are
supposed to say oh you must be
exaggerating I'm like you just
come to downtown SF on any
random day yeah it's the same
thing um and it's uh it's like Mad
Max Walking Dead situation yeah
 it's horrible yeah it's like you can't
believe it um now there are
certainly still many nice parts of
San Francisco but the fact that the
downtown core is basically a dead
zone uh it's and and frankly some
of the areas where there's just no
people at all I think might be worse
when the parts where the zombies
are because it's actually Bleaker
this is It's just empty yeah um so
you know we clearly don't want to
have a world where that policy is
Amplified to Earth um you know
where where you know we don't
want all of us to be like downtown
SF so you can see kind of like
where the policies lead and we
have evidence is right here so we
anyway we it's one thing if that um
if the sort of uh damage radius of
 an ideology is located is limited
geographically to you know sort of
10 mile radius or something like
that um which is what what you
know say Anisha ideology would
be limited geographically but when
you've got some massive Global
megaphone um it's a effectively a
mind virus megaphone to Earth if
you have something like Twitter
um Facebook Instagram yeah big
talk to some degree large degree
um I've had a lot of people voicing
increasing concerns about tick tock
not from the standpoint of spying
but you know having a negative
effect on the youth yeah so short
shorter attention spans and I don't
know um how do you how do you
manage that aspect when it comes
to social media because I
 understand that anyone running a
major social media Corporation
there are so many different points
of interest and conflicts and ethical
confusion I think a lot of people
think it's sort of easier than it must
be right you've got number one I
think people often forget that these
platforms are Global they're not
just in the USA they're not just in
one nation they're yeah 100 plus
different countries different
jurisdictions with different laws
different rules there's political
elements involved yeah and so on
you've got the you know typical
stuff that you're not going to want
polluting any type of websites
there's various legal issues but then
also the goal of the platforms is to
keep people on them um in most
 cases is to sell advertising is to
make them sticky and addictive
and keep people coming back but
in your mind where's the line on
that between we can recognize
some of the problems that social
media is having especially when it
comes to younger people right but
at the same time you do want
people of course using the app and
enjoying it and spending time on
their so in your mind where do you
think that balance is well there is
actually quite a lot of pressure
from advertisers yeah I mean the
our advertising in um in North
America and Europe is uh you
know down like 50 um it's actually
you know we're still roughly even
in most Asia actually um
interestingly enough but in uh
North America is down like I don't
know over 50 percent um Europe
sound about 40 percent um and um
you know I think if we if we
simply towed the line and kept
going as it was before then um we
would still have a lot of that
Revenue um so that like actually
uh freedom of speech was pretty
expensive yeah uh it really is cost
billions of dollars it's currently
costing probably freedom of
speech currently costing about two
billion a year so this is a lot just on
Twitter and and lost Revenue it's
oh it's right right now roughly two
billion dollars a year yeah um now
I think that could change over time
hopefully it will um that uh over
time we the advertisers will realize
that actually Twitter is is not a
 some sort of hate speech purveyor
in fact uh I get more laughs from
Twitter than anything else yeah
like you say like last per day I
mean it's more than everything else
combined from at least for me um I
you know I sometimes see I mean I
see content I disagree with but I
don't find it to be sort of you know
a festering sort of pile of hate you
know um what's your experience I
love Twitter I mean I've been using
Twitter since 2009. yes you know
well every time I've seen it through
a lot of different iterations and
what what I did notice myself is
that for the for the first few years
of using Twitter no one really
worried about being banned or
silenced censored Shadow band all
of that it wasn't really a thing it
really started to ramp up I want to
say around 2015 maybe due to the
U.S elections and you started to
feel the walls closing in not just
personally but other people were
found finding oh like oh that
person got banned yeah oh that
person that person that person it's
you know I'd start out with people
more on the fringes but then it
starts closing in and people start
getting temporary I mean I got
temporarily suspended for saying
okay dude once um that was my
one suspension yeah I said okay
dude wow in response to in
response to somebody and um it's
cool I made a song in some good
great merchandise outfit in the end
but um yeah I had to delete that
tweet it literally just said okay
dude um okay so yeah people were
getting banned for all these sort of
things and then now in the past
year it's it's opened up again yeah
and I think people are having more
fun now because they know okay I
can make that edgy joke or I can
say this or I can say that everybody
needs to be walking away at shells
exactly so it's like walking
eggshells just definitely going to be
a buzz kill yeah so yeah it's it's a I
mean our general philosophy is uh
uh huge close to the law in any
given country we can't do more
than that yeah um as you
mentioned uh some countries um
in fact most countries maybe all
countries have um more
restrictions on speech than the US
um so we don't have any choice
 but to uh you know obey the laws
of Any Given country or they'll
simply cut Twitter off um so
sometimes people like are under
laboring on the impression that we
can mandate what speech is going
to be in some other country and
like we're not the government you
know so we'll do the best we can
but but we can't go if we just do
illegal stuff they'll arrest our
employees find us and then kick us
out yeah so it's we'll do do the best
we can um and I think we're doing
I'm confident at this point where
we we do the least amount of
censorship um we're the most open
we're the only uh social media
company that open sources it's a
recommendation algorithm
everyone else is still you know so
 just a black box you don't know
what's going on in there um and uh
and then we're we're making it
better better over time so you know
we're going to add um indicators so
you can see on your profile page
have you been search banned have
you been okay visibility filtered
um is there is there anything that's
that's affecting your account uh in
a negative way um so um like
we're going for maximum
transparency so uh and I think
that's what really both trust you
know because it's one thing to say
like oh yeah trust us but but why
well you can see everything we're
doing you know then then you you
don't need to believe me you can
just literally look at the algorithm
you can just literally you know
 everything's you know completely
above board um and uh you know
it should be possible for actually
uh independent third party to um
recreate the recommendations that
they see on Twitter using our
algorithm um and frankly we're
still finding different layers of code
that we didn't know existed we
literally found one um this week
okay uh which was um uh which
uh it had like a reputation score for
any given account and if that
account started trending uh it
would be deleted from the trending
list oh um and uh I mean I was
turned out I was one of those
accounts um so the system would
um exclude me from any Trends
that's interesting um so and it was
it was just it was simply based on
 how many um times an account
had been reported okay but but not
not like dividing my total follower
account or anything so you know if
if like point oh so if you just had a
big following then yeah if anyone
with big following is basically
getting uh but getting Trend
banned which is crazy yeah um or
anyone that says anything remotely
controversial or is targeted by you
know Bots or activists yeah it is
basically it's very easy to sort of
reports fam um an account um kind
of DDOS an account with with a
with fake reports and then the
system would just say oh this
account's gotten lots of reports so
they can't be in Trend yeah were
you expecting such a level of I
mean of course you've got massive
 public support and praise as well
and I know you've been dealing
with this your you know criticism
your whole career sure but um
were you expecting I mean I guess
number one is what what level of
backlash or criticism have you
received I mean I I see what I see
but I mean from your perspective
how much has it been in terms of
just the amount of stuff coming
whether that's from mainstream
Media or just from individuals and
even other organizations well I
think it's it was really be hard to
avoid the criticism of me frankly
it's like it's not like um I'm I'm like
I'm not dying to get to get pressed
it's just the there's just uh my name
gets a lot of clicks and the you
know it's important to understand
 that the price is primarily a click
maximizing machine not a truth
maximizing machine um and really
it's it's somewhat of a darwinian
exercise if if you're not a click
maximizing machine well you
don't get the clicks and then you
don't get the revenue and then the
you know the company goes under
yeah so the entire data structure is
Max is maximized clicks not
maximize truth and so that's why
you'll have while you'll have sort
of uh Insanity headlines that are
like really way over the top or
because often the truth is is boring
and complicated uh or it's certainly
more like a sort of you know
version of the truth that the media
will without will be more salacious
um you know it'll be spicier than
 reality and and they'll it'll be the
cliff notes version but you know
the drama I mean the media is
going to give you generally the
dramatized Cliff Notes version of
reality um because if it's if they
give you the full thing is too
complicated and it's gonna bore
people and um and if if they really
give give it too much balance it
really doesn't have enough
controversy to get the click this is
the incentive structure and so one
that you know whatever your
incent will happen um so anyways
that's the situation with with the
media um and if the Legacy Media
have had to deal with the shrinking
advertising plan for a long time
because uh Google and Facebook
and whatnot have taken so much of
 the of the advertising Revenue um
so they're it's been they're happy
about they're happy about that well
it's been a struggle for the
traditional media yeah so that that
they've been forced to be click
maximizing machines or die um so
how do you think how do you
think that's going to play out over
time I mean I think a lot of people
recognize the problem with the sort
of Click bait model like it's it's
really a broken incentive structure
that's leading to increased
manipulation um you know
ridiculous headlines I mean yeah
we see a lot it's why it can be
difficult to see the line between
satire and reality now because it's
just yeah it's gotten so goofy that
you can't tell whether something is
 from the best recipe or the onion
like many times or it's getting
totally crazy yeah I mean uh there's
been stuff about you know Fitness
being linked to Fascism and white
supremacy and you know I mean
bodybuilding is a fitness really I
wasn't aware that uh yeah I mean
people should obviously be in good
shape it's just a matter of health
and feeling good and I mean I
should work out I I don't really
work out much um but uh I agree I
think I agree with the idea of
working out and I agree with the
idea of fitness and and it's just
obviously a fundamental a healthy
way to live I mean come on I'm
ripping a t-shirt right now I don't
know if you can read that this is
the get jacksonated t-shirt Okay
 cool so nice that's the movement
I'm trying to get everyone in the
gym get jacks get get jacked get
vaccinated our podcast today is
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I wanted to ask you is this is a big
 question this is a big question but
with all the stuff that you do what
what motivates you what's the Big
Driver well internally I'm what I'm
trying to do is uh take the threat of
actions that maximize the
probability that the future will be
good uh for civilization that we
will expand the scale of scope of
scope and scale of Consciousness
uh so that we're better able to
understand the nature of the
universe uh so I would call my I'd
say I have like a philosophy of
curiosity um that's maybe best
articulated by Douglas Adams in
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the
Galaxy okay um so we're you
know that's really famously has
like the it was a big computer
comes up with the answer 42 but
 the really hard part is what
question to ask um so I think it's
like we want to try to understand
more about the nature of the
universe I stand like what does it
all mean where where do we come
from where are we going where
does this all end up is what's real
are there aliens I mean well they
seem to be confirming some stuff
quite recently I mean I I have yet
to see actually any actual evidence
of aliens so and I'm really deep in
space yeah so um yeah uh I I I
mean if if there is some actual
evidence of aliens or an actual
UFO I'll be there in a second you
know I mean obviously you know
it's like we're talking about bodies
here or like is it a UFO is there
advanced technology I mean that
would be very very interesting um
and hopefully they're friendly uh
so I managed to get all the way
here from another star system I
mean the technology is going to be
far in excess I mean we're we'll be
primitive compared to them you
know so um but I also think like if
if there aren't a aliens or that that's
actually perhaps even a bigger
concern because um you know if
they actually aren't aliens in our
galaxy or anywhere near us then
effectively uh this Consciousness
this Consciousness on planet Earth
is um the light of Consciousness is
like it's like a tiny candle in a vast
Darkness um and a fragile candle
and we should just do everything
we can to make sure it does not go
out what do you think is the
 greatest threat to humanity well I
think um digital super intelligence
uh is a real real concern I think that
um digital super intelligence or
artificial general intelligence as it's
called sometimes or mostly is uh
more likely to be good than bad but
it's just that the the probability of a
bad outcome is not zero and I think
I think probably the more we
worry about a bad outcome the less
likely it is to occur okay um so so I
think we should be con you know
just say like let's try to steer the um
AI in a good direction what do you
think that potentially bad outcome
would be I mean I've got ideas in
my head I've seen some Sci-Fi
movies but I mean the the
obviously the extreme case would
be at wife's out Humanity you
 know that would be it's not a zero
percent chance uh hopefully it's a
low chance but it's not zero or wife
doesn't maybe just maybe it doesn't
wipes a whole lot but you know it's
kind of like the you know or the
chimps and the gorillas they're
they're in small sections of Earth
but they're yeah and we don't like
it's not like we're like going and
hunting them down or anything but
but they're they're contained in
small areas of us and so they don't
um we don't prioritize them we
don't prioritize them and I'm not
sure that like they're certainly not
like expanding yeah you know they
got the there uh so they think that
could be a also not not a great
outcome where it's like it doesn't
kill all the humans just keeps
enough around just for the hell of a
pharmacist yeah or like just to see
what happens like study us like
who isn't the most whatever you
know just the people would like to
study us out of curiosity potentially
um that would still not be a great
outcome for Humanity you know
um I think we want to like I said
expand the scope and scale of
Consciousness uh yeah both
biological and digital and
ultimately go out we've become a
multi-final species become an
Interstellar species because these
other star systems and and maybe
we do meet uh aliens um or maybe
we visit these various star systems
and we see well here's an alien
civilization that lasted 10 million
years um and did incredible things
 and then ultimately died out
potentially um I mean I think we
we could find there's a whole
bunch that there's a whole bunch of
of uh Dead one planet civilizations
never got Beyond The Home
Planet um so um I mean Judith's
expansion of the sun earth arguably
may become and have
uninhabitable as soon as half a
billion years from now which is a
long time but it's been around for
four and a half billion so that
would only be a 10 increase in um
the lifespan of both and so and if
you look at if you date a
civilization from perhaps the first
writing that's about 5 000 years old
and that's uh 5500 years old though
so uh kind of archaic preak
uniform in Samaria so that's sort of
 like that's a very short period of
time so they say like Earth's been
around for one and a half billion
years writing is five thousand years
old so um if your date civilization
from the first writing which is
probably a reasonable number then
civilizations only been around for
one millionth of Earth's existence
not long ago not long at all I
thought we're a flash in the pan
basically so um anyway so I think
we we want to do everything we
can to um obviously make life on
Earth great and uh make picture of
oath of solid and um that
Civilization is on on a sound
footing you know keep making
with better um but then expand to
Mars and ultimately you know to
to the rest of the solar system and
uh eventually to other star systems
um be a space foreign civilization
like you know in the good Sci-Fi
movies and yeah shows it's like
you know Star Trek and whatnot
let's you know go out there and see
there's civilizations who have
never let me read pretty cool if we
meet Aliens hopefully they're
friendly you know um and just
gain a vastly greater understanding
of the Universe I think it might
depend on which humans they
meet first whether or not yeah I
think we need to be quite cautious
about uh who they who they meet
first yeah because they might form
some quick judgments based on
that yeah like we just want to have
the opportunity right now we don't
really know how to go anywhere
close to the speed of light let alone
beyond the speed of light so it will
take us a long time to get to nearest
star systems I mean optimistically
with known physics we could get
to the nearest star system in about
40 or 50 years okay it'll be very
difficult to even get make it that
short it's a long time to be traveling
through deep space so anyway I
think that's the future that would be
that's that's exciting and there
needs to be things that are exciting
and inspiring where you wake up
in the morning and it's not just
about solving one problem or
another or some sort of
international struggle with between
the humans but but that there are
inspiring goals collectively as
Humanity where we're really
excited about about that and I think
being a space barring civilization is
something that I think a lot of
people would find very exciting
and and inspiring and um you
know even if they don't go with
themselves they can just you know
kind of live vicariously through
those that went I mean I think you
know with the Apollo Landings it
was you know they were literally
said For All Mankind you know
um and um I think everyone was
proud to be a human at that point
it's like we actually went to the we
went to a damn Moon that's such
an important sentence you just said
there actually wow you know yeah
you just said something there that
that's actually really important you
said people being proud to be
 human and I think actually we
increasingly live in a time where a
big part of the problem is that that's
not the case yeah um I think
oftentimes people view it with a
sort of nationalistic lens about
people being proud to be American
they're proud to be British or
whatever and those people
recognize that that sort of
patriotism seems to be declining
but I actually think yeah as a
species as a whole perhaps we're
not feeling as optimistic about our
own species as we should be and I
think that there's been a lot of fear
a lot of people living in constant
fear perhaps people feeling like the
future is going to be worse than the
present and even worse than the
past in some ways and yeah I think
 that's causing a lot of
psychological problems and having
really impact on society and
culture because if you don't think
the future is going to be better right
than the present then you lose hope
totally and it's important to have
that Spirit of Adventure yeah and I
think also if people lose hope in the
future if they have uh you know if
there's if they're pessimistic about
the future then they're also unlikely
to have kids in which case you get
the civilizational decline um I
mean we just have you know for
most of us demographic collapse
like the birth rates are just crazy
low yeah um so uh we're certainly
I think not expanding and we're
really gonna contract pretty
significantly um I mean Japan last
 year had twice as many deaths as
both that's crazy yeah so I mean
every every single Western
Country yeah has a below
replacement birth rate yeah and
just generally the trend is as soon
as you get sort of urbanization
frankly unfortunately education
tends to urbanization education
reduce birth rate yeah so and that's
that Trend will ultimately happen I
think throughout the world so um
so that's why I'm you know
encouraging people like let's at
least like maintain our numbers
you know like we don't actually
expand in a crazy way but it's at
least maintaining numbers maybe a
little bit of growth um so why do
you think so many people think the
opposite I mean you hear a lot of
 talk about over I think the whole
overpopulation yeah I think I think
it's a massive psyop and yeah yeah
that's not true yeah but why do so
many uh otherwise smart people
buy buy into that well I think to
some degree this is a side effect of
the environmental movement okay
you know so uh you know the sort
of environmental movement I think
started off well where it was um
saying look we need to move to
sustainable energy uh which is is
correct in the long term we do need
to move to sustainable energy it's
total logical if we don't move to
sustainable energy then it's
unsustainable and we'll run out and
civilization we'll grind to a halt so
we do need to have sustainable
energy over time uh there's
 obviously a concern with with
climate change um although I like
I'm of the opinion that while there
is a long-term concern for climate
change there there is not really
much of a short-term concern like
it's big things it's a very slow
process um and I think we don't we
don't need to sort of be um
stopping people from farming or
having cows or or whatever like
this is crazy this is that then and
that's like small potatoes are from
an environmental standpoint the
the really the the the the the
fundamental thing from
environmental standpoint is if
you've got billions of tons of um
fossil fuels essentially uh you
know Carbon in liquid and gaseous
form or solid form in the case of
 coal that's buried deep
underground and you move it from
deep underground into the into the
atmosphere and the oceans you
obviously change the chemistry of
the of the oceans and atmosphere
and if you keep doing that for a
long time we'll eventually change
the chemistry enough that they will
indeed be climate change um but
Earth is very big and human and
humans are small I mean uh Tim
Urban I calculated that you could
fit all the humans on Earth on one
floor in the city of New York on
one floor on one floor yes and
you've kind of wedged in there but
yeah you know but uh oh okay so
if you just kind of spread the video
shoulder shoulder yeah whatever
it's a like basically across like the
 cross-sectional area of humans is
small like we think that there are a
lot of people but and that's if you
live in like London or New York
you'll be like oh wow there's a lot
of people but this is that's a very
rare situation most of the time you
know if you're if you're flying um
you know across the us or
internationally it's empty yeah I
mean you're far from holiday to
New York most of the time there's
like you don't see anyone no yeah
so um yeah so like if if you're if
you're trying to drop a ball on
somebody's head while flying from
LA to New York you'd have a real
hard time you know you're gonna
miss yeah it's just not a you know
humans are not densely packed
they're um so yeah um plenty of
 room for more people that's
basically the situation so so
anyway so I think the
environmental movement kind of
got somewhat overzealous and
kind of was and like in the limit of
environmentalism you sought to
conclude that humanity is a plague
on on Earth that humanity is
actually the problem it's a big one
yeah and um that's like obviously
taking the environmental
movement just too far but there are
literally people who believe this
that like extinctionists yes um New
York Times as some months ago
had an article um front page article
with with some guy who and his
quote was there are eight billion on
people on Earth and it would be
better if there were none that's dark
 yeah I'm like hey buddy you can
saw it with yourself yeah you
know if you really want to you
know make a difference but uh you
know take your own advice here
um but it but that's like a crazy
Viewpoint you know that's like
literally saying this genocide
Humanity like what how can you
say that with a straight face that's
when it's like total Madness um but
but people like like I said in the
limit of environment of
environmentalism it sort of
becomes like an ingrown toenail
you know it's sort of like yeah
Twitter is fine but not if it's like
warped in England it's it's just gone
too far um humanity is not a
blatant on the face of the Earth and
frankly even with climate change
 uh life on Earth will still continue
um I mean the calamities that Earth
has suffered where life continued
afterwards like gigantic meteorite
impacts super volcanoes the
continents drifting all over the
place uh there have been times in
Earth's past where it's been like a
total snowball or it's been
absolutely sweltering hot and um
you know life you know we had
many Extinction events but there
were uh but life continued um but
um you know like we didn't we
don't see the dinosaurs now but
they've had a good run for
whatever 100 plus million years
um so uh so even if there's
catastrophic climate change on
Earth life continues um it just may
not be your life as we know it it'll
 it may not be humans it'd be
something else um so what we're
talking about with climate change
is not a threat to a life on Earth but
really maybe a threat to human
humans or a dislocation of humans
if there's low-lying countries that
um you know the water level rises
and other underwater type thing so
um so I mean I think one just needs
to strike the right balance by
saying like look over time we need
to move to a sustainable energy
economy and we we can't just keep
taking billions of tons of coffin
from deep underground and putting
it in the atmosphere and expect
nothing will happen forever yeah
um but we also don't need to be
alarmist about it and super negative
and massively disrupt people's
 Lifestyles I mean I think people
can continue to live a normal life
yes and they shouldn't be guilty
about being human or sort of
frankly having a stake it's fine yeah
it all something that strikes me
with that agenda as well and
people who push it is it also seems
like Western countries climbing
the ladder and then pulling the
ladder up after them right so when
you have large developing nations
somewhere somewhere like India
lots of parts of Africa and so on
and it's like okay the Western
Nations have gone through this
whole process to even get to a
stage where you can afford to care
about such things you've got other
nations that are developing and
they're trying to get up to the level
 of prosperity that say the USA has
right now and you know you want
them to care about the environment
but it's like people are still poor
people are not going to care about
the environment until they've got
their basic needs met so there's a
part of it where it's this um you
know it's it's this sort of belief
system that I I think is very what's
what's the right term it's almost like
uh to use a Rob Henderson term
it's like a luxury belief right you
know it's like okay it's all good for
you to view things that way but if
you think about the average person
yeah in many parts of the you
know developing World they can't
afford to be thinking this way they
still need to get up to at least the
basic level that our countries are in
 yeah I I mean I agree with that um
I mean I agree with what you just
said but I I also think that the cost
of sustainable energy has been
drop it dropping tremendously and
you're seeing um a lot more uh
wind and solar um and uh you
know pair that with uh the battery
and you've got uh you know
continuous power for wind wind
and solar uh that's actually very
competitive so cost competitive um
and um actually one of the one of
the nice things about say solar
battery is you you don't need to run
high power lines all over the place
and have some you know localized
uh solar battery situation on your
house or Factory welding or it's
you can kind of decentralize the
power generation and and I think
 that's actually better for people to
have decentralized power
generation um and uh you know
also decentralized
Communications um like a lot of
places they skipped all the sort of
phone landline stuff and went to
cell phones yes in fact a lot of
places um in the world have way
better cell connectivity than you
know Silicon Valley which is
bizarre yeah um you know so yeah
when it comes to the idea of
underpopulation what is your
biggest concern about that if there
are not you've said many times
publicly that we need more people
we need more human beings yeah
what what would happen if you
know this is this is not my
perspective but for the people who
 are there who do think you know
who do have this sort of
malthusian world view and they
think that there's too many people
there's enough resources he's been
wrong for a very long time but you
know kind of like still comes back
communism it won't go exactly
there we go again so what what's
the greatest fear there if people are
not reproducing as they have been
for most of human history what's
the what's the greatest concern
there well I think it's like what we
risk is civilizational collapse yeah
you know uh so and and and
somewhat of a depressing
civilizational collapse if the birth
rate keeps dropping every year and
uh population just keeps going into
the sort of like negative death
 spiral literally um then uh it won't
die with a bang it'll die with a with
a whimper in adult diapers I mean
that's a that's a bleak end to
civilization so um you know I keep
looking at the growth rate numbers
which is just like available online
you know it's a lot like it's basic
facts um and uh hoping that both
rates will turn around um and that
every year it gets worse yeah what
do you think could practically be
done to to help with that because a
big factor in this is you know I talk
to a lot of a lot of young young
men and young women um you
know I'm in my in my own
position as well yeah so yeah I plan
to I I will I will yeah um but due to
you know from everything from
social and cultural factors
economic factors Financial factors
a lot of young men and women say
the average 20 year old or even 25
year old they find the whole idea of
having children bringing new life
into the world very scary because
they feel like hey you know I don't
have the money I can't afford it I
can't even buy a house I'm in debt
I'm struggling to keep my head
above water so on so what do you
think could practically be done in
USA Canada UK Europe all these
developed countries South Korea
Japan all these places where the
you know population is declining
birth rates are declining I I think
it's one thing to to recognize the
issue but what do you think can be
done on a sort of practical
reasonable level well I I do think
 that like some of the like the
incentive structure in in a lot of
countries is uh against having kids
yes um so um like it's a sort of it is
it is expensive to have kids
especially if you want to sort of
give the best education and all that
sort of stuff so it's a it is you know
uh financially difficult um I mean
if I say that but then ironically the
higher someone's income fewer
kids yeah yeah so it doesn't totally
make sense um that you have an
inverse correlation with income
and and kids um where so so I
guess people may may sort of think
that but it's not actually real you
know I think that the fears there's
these unjustified fears of like well
if I have a kid things are going to
be financially terrible at it's
actually not true you know it's um I
don't know that I have a good
answer to this because I'm trying to
you know figure it out um yeah I
mean I know that for a lot of young
people and some of this is media
and cultural programming but a lot
of people have been pushed over
the decades the idea that having
children ruins your life right that it
it takes away your freedom and
your autonomy and you can't have
fun and do all this cool stuff and
you've got to just you know I think
the idea of Parenthood I think the
solution is I don't and I don't know
exactly how to do this but I think
the idea of Parenthood and family
needs to be made cool yeah it does
it needs to be made cool again yeah
absolutely and I think people just
 understand like nothing will make
you happier than having kids um it
will absolutely improve your
happiness level and have kids um
and I mean we're kind of like
programmed for that you know it's
like if we would just say like like
in the old days where it's like you
know people's sort of straw food
was like short supply they had
plague like you know it's like
trying to just start trying to survive
from one year to the next in the
middle days was like a big deal um
and so you know now now we
have now that's kind of more or
less normal that you would survive
from one year to the next um so
you know we're going to become I
guess a complacent but but but
basically if if it wasn't rewarding
 instinctively to have kids we
wouldn't have them yes you know
um I mean almost none of the
world was literate until not that
long ago so it's not like you're like
oh let me read a bunch of books uh
you you kind of have to
instinctively love having kids
otherwise you can't read about it
it's like it's going to read books
yeah so um so I think that's
important to understand you'll you
will absolutely be happier if you
have kids um absolutely we're
literally we've evolved to have that
as All Creatures have I mean you
could take say like I don't know
like a you know like I don't know
an alley cat or something like or
like like a or Bobcat like some like
wild creature that would normally
be quite Fierce and unfriendly um
and like kill read anything it came
across but the moment it has um
you know Cubs or puppies or
whatever it or kittens uh it
becomes a you know that becomes
loving mom you know so like like
the cat that was really mean is like
taking care of its little kittens it's
Instinct it's like you know it's
genetic programming so people
should really expect that if they
have kids they will improve their
quality of life not make it worse if
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sack summer boys get on board or
get left behind you've got a lot of
kids yeah I'm trying to say a good
example awesome yeah how how
has having kids made your made
your life better how does it how
does it make you happier and how
does it motivate and drive the
things that you're doing well I
think I mean I don't know it's like I
think it's normal to love your kids
you know it's just it's just kind of
an automatic thing and they've got
this little creature that's depending
on you to take care of it and it's
very wanting to do so I think
inherently so um I mean they're a
lot of fun they're but I don't know
you love them they love you um do
you find do you find being a father
is a driver is that a particular driver
and motivator for the way you
think and the things you're trying
to the things that you're not trying
to do the things you are doing I
think it does motivate me to you
know want to make sure that the
world is the future is going to be
good for for my kids you know and
um and um sometimes people
might say like well you know uh so
sometimes I'm complimented and
said and it will say like well it's
very magnanimous magnanimous
of you or altruistic of you to care
about civilization but I think
actually like even if somebody's
very selfish uh you should still care
about civilization because we
 cannot live in the absence of
civilization um you could live
alone we cannot you know if you
want to know what being alone and
without civilization is just look at
like naked and afraid you know
they don't want to it's it's not we all
like actually hanging out with other
humans we all actually we all
actually like each other more than
we think um in reality um one of
my sons Saxon who's sort of
autistic uh but he's kind of
awesome he's like an article of
wisdom um you know he for a long
time he was rare I'd like to try to
have like a family dinner at a
restaurant once a week you know
just go out somewhere and um and
Saxon for a long time was really
didn't understand why we're doing
this um he's like why are we going
out and um and then finally he he
had an epiphany and said oh the
reason people go to restaurants is
to hang out with strangers and I'm
like yeah that's actually true yeah
because you can get the same
restaurant food delivered you can
call your friends over yeah but you
know what you can't get unless you
go to a restaurant is hanging out
with strangers so we actually like
hanging out with friends really
discovers nightclubs yeah exactly
you know a darker room yeah you
can barely see anyone it's the
music's not but it's still kind of fun
and you're just with a bunch of
strangers basically we're just
humans actually do love other
humans more than they may think
they do um and you think you look
at like say what what's like one of
the worst punishments in prison is
solitary confinement and it's not
like you know if you're not
intelligent confinement you know
the rest of the prison is maybe not
like the most awesome group to
hang out with but it's way better
than being alone you're probably
safer in there but yeah you don't
want to be there so humans love
other humans more than they
realize yeah I've listened to a lot a
lot of your interviews and a lot of
stuff is about the sort of here and
now but I'm curious to know a
little bit more about your your
journey people see all the things
that you're doing now with Tesla
and putting rockets in space and
 buying Twitter and you know
restoring free speech trying to
make Humanity an interplanetary
species but tell me more I was in
um I went to South Africa for the
first time just a few months ago so
I was in uh I went to Johannesburg
I went to I went to Cape Town I
know that that's where that's where
you grew up and you spend your
uh mostly in Johannesburg
Johannesburg Victoria and um for
a couple years in Durban okay I
visited Cape Town a few times uh
but didn't live there what was can
you tell me can you tell me a little
bit more about your the the pre
super multiple CEO Elon Musk um
you know yeah I had kind of like a
I wouldn't say um I really mostly
sat on a unhappy childhood
actually um it would not it was not
a that wasn't 100 bad but it was
pretty rough and uh thank you I
lived in South Africa Plus 17. and
um and then I was able to get
Canadians Canadian citizenship
through my mom because she uh
was born in Canada okay um and
so I was like well um you know I
left when I was 17. um so you
know I think my views of South
Africa are somewhat scarred by
kind of a negative childhood
experience like literally scars yeah
I have literally quite a few scarves
um so um it was it was so soft so
there's certainly plenty of good
things about the country but uh in
my particular experience was not
that great so I hear that yeah I
know you um one of your first
 projects was a video game called
blastar yeah getting that right yeah
tell us about blastar well I always
loved video games when I was kid
on computers um so like the video
games back then were extremely
primitive you know um uh so I
guess when I was about I don't
know 10 or 10 or so I I saw like the
first computer I mean I read a lot
of books and then I saw that you
could actually have a computer
which is I thought wow this is the
best thing ever um it was a
Commodore vic-20 I think it had
like 8K of Ram or something okay
yeah it's crazy um it was best the
other was best thing ever and so I
and I got a book on programming
told myself how to write write
computer programs um and then
 gradually progress from the
Commodore 20 to the um uh some
class Spectrum which was actually
a pretty brilliant little computer
that was a 48k a few of those felt
very Advanced after like 20. um
and then yeah so I was just kind of
programming and you couldn't
really get very many games so I
was like well program games
playing myself so but it is it is
interesting that the the Escape
simple game that I wrote when I
was a kid and I remember when I
was like 11 or something um and
uh edit all the the graphics and the
music and everything primitive
Graphics promoted music but so
um and um yeah I was actually
yeah I sold to get game for money
which was not much money it was
 a lot for a little kid um and I wrote
a bunch of other games too uh
when I was a kid and then actually
had a I worked briefly at it
software company a games
company called Rocket Science in
Palo Alto which had nothing to do
with with rockets it was just a
games company um and then I
know I wrote software for almost
20 years from like ages roughly 10
to 30. um any I heard you used to
uh play Quake a lot yeah and got
pretty good pretty darn good at that
yeah yeah so uh yeah um played a
lot of weight [Music] um and had
uh one of the best teams in the
country actually um and I think I
think it was the first I think the first
paid Esports thing in the US or
certainly one of the first and um we
ended up coming second in that we
were actually coming first but then
the best I was the second best post
on the team the best person on the
team his computer crashed halfway
through the game so we ended up
coming second but um I think like
we made a few thousand dollars or
something so it was pretty good at
Quake back in the day yeah and I
heard you did you want to you
wanted to get into or at least you
thought about getting into
programming video games but then
is that is that fair to say I did
actually work on some fairly
Advanced video games okay let
this company rocket science okay
okay um but uh that's um I like
video games but I wanted to sort of
have a I don't know as big of
 impact on the world as possible
like I said like trade try to take the
set of actions that I think most
likely to result in a good future be
as useful as possible so um yeah so
I mean I was you know for a while
there was was pursuing a path of
developing technology for electric
vehicles um that's what I was going
to be doing my Graduate Studies at
Stanford on okay it's sort of
advanced energy storage
technology for electric vehicles
and are putting putting that on hold
to start an Internet company
because I figured like the
technology of electric vehicles
would advance and I could come
back to it which I did later but the
internet was like it was the which
was going super over at the time if
 this is in 95. so um so I wanted to
be part of building the internet
basically what was your first
impression of the internet because I
think for young people now it was
like the internet it feels like the
internet's always been there yeah
um because I think people forget
how you breathe or something
yeah I think people forget that I
mean even within my lifetime yeah
I remember when nobody had
email addresses I remember when
people were terrified to put their
credit card details online when
people thought selling books
online was a dumb idea and this
Amazon thing was never going to
work like that's all within my own
Lifetime right um so stuff has
changed very very quickly but
 what was your first impression of
the internet and how did you so
quickly realize its potential well
you know as we're talking about I
you know into computers from
when I was even before I even had
a computer I was reading about
reading about them so um so I had
some like very early primitive
computers and then um had a
computer with a modem so like a
balanced like bulletin board or in
these various sort of very early pre-
internet things um and uh and then
like like the you know you sort of
started to have the internet go
beyond just universities and like a
handful of universities and
government institutions um to be
kind of commercialized um and
and it was just growing
exponentially so it I mean the way
I sort of visualized sort of it was
like the humanity was like
acquiring a nervous system so
previously information had to flow
from one person to another so
either had to meet in person you
had to call them on a phone or uh
you had to somebody had to carry
a letter by hand to someone else
um and that was the way that
information flowed um and if you
wanted to have access to a book
you'd have to go to a library um
and the book you know most
libraries would only have a very
small subset of books that exist um
so your access to information was
very limited um and very slow and
but as soon as you have the internet
where everyone's connected now
 you could be in very remote
location and if you've got access to
the internet you have access to all
of Humanity's information
everything you have access to the
entire kind of collective group-
wide um so it's like moving from
like we were communicating
almost by osmosis like just point
like literally direct contact to and
very limited amount of information
to now anyone has access to all of
the world's information um I mean
right I mean the internet you can
learn anything on the internet yeah
okay yeah I mean all like the MIT
lecturers are on YouTube um you
can become an expert in anything
for free if you've got an internet
connection yes and I think people
haven't realized that yet yeah I
 mean I guess if you ask them they
know it's true but they they don't
quite appreciate that that the the
the equality of access to
information is so radically better
today than it was in the past it's it's
no comparison um you know I
mean for a long time like books
were very rare and like people
would have a small collection of
books um before the Gutenberg
Press I'd have to literally copy out
the book by hand so having a book
was like a like a relic and it was
like it's a hardly anyone had books
hardly anyone could read and even
those that had books didn't have
very many of them um then you
had a good repressed thing and
now you can make copies of books
you know but still paper still
 limited still not that many um so
we should be actually quite excited
about the fact that there is this
massive leveling of opportunity of
access to information because the
those that did have books in the old
days would be it would be like
some the Lord of some in a manner
or something would have their
their Library but even that would
be a pretty small Library um and
and most people had notebooks so
now you have access to vastly
more information than you know
the king of England did yes like in
it even 100 years ago like even say
20 for 40 years ago like the
average person right now has
access to more information than
the most powerful person on Earth
did in say 1980. or even 1990
frankly oh I wish it felt like it well
the sort of thing is that like it's in
human nature to that our
expectations recalibrate so uh
because you know the the
difference between uh almost any
part of the world really elicits
actively at War versus like having
to survive by yourself or with a
small group living off the land it's
it's like our quality of life basically
uh is so dramatically better than
the past you have to say well why
aren't we happy it's because or or
sometimes why a lot of people
aren't happy is that they we just
keep recalibrating we keep setting
our expectations higher we keep
moving the goal post yeah so so it's
you know um keep moving the
goal post recap keep recalibrating
 then you just naturally will always
be wanting things to be better than
than in the past it's it's kind of like
like our you know it's the same
goes like happiness is reality my
minus expectations but if our
expectations keep Rising then
reality has to keep Rising too um
and uh yeah so no overall I think
people should be more optimistic
about the future and I think you
should recognize that um alive
today is vastly better than it was uh
in times past [Music] um that um
actually violence on average is
much lower than it used to be oh
yeah war is rare I mean yeah
before in Ukraine but it'd just be
like everywhere you know um
even just I mean just look at the
past Century yeah I mean yeah last
century was insane yeah um so um
you understand it's not rare for
them to be War yeah so yeah I
think people I think people lack
perspective and gratitude yeah with
all those things that you're saying
and I think that if people had more
awareness of both history and how
far and how quickly human beings
have advanced and how much
things have gotten better even if
you just take something obvious
things poverty yeah you know
childhood mortality women dying
in childbirth access to education
that's a huge issue I mean literacy
yeah people were used to just be
getting taken out left right and
Center you know it was very
normal for you know a quarter or a
third of uh children to to die before
 they reach age five it was very
normal for a young men to be
going off to war and being
brutalized and killed and all sorts
of horrible ways yeah in fact like
so Napoleon um said like all every
French woman has to have six kids
two will die in charge two two will
drive children two will die in war
and then two more to continue
friends wow yeah yeah and it
wasn't that far wrong yeah it's a
little Napoleonic Wars and stuff
yeah I just think that because of
that because of the when I think
with the lack of perspective comes
a lack of gratitude and then no
matter how comfortable someone's
life is no matter how good things
they are even if they're they're in
good health no one around them is
 sick or dying whatever and they're
still just feeling down and sad and I
think if they could just reframe that
in their minds then I think people
would be a lot happier yeah
absolutely I really encourage
people to be um students of
History yeah I mean there's some
really good podcasts out there that
are very compelling um uh you
know podcasts there's like this
explorers podcast that's really
interesting like of the early sea
voyages you know and how like
everyone was like dying of scurvy
because they didn't even know
vitamin C was a thing yeah and
then they finally figured out okay
vitamin C is a thing so um and um
you know uh I mean if you read
history like man it just feel like
 we'd have like plagues over here
like a third of the city died you
know um I mean they only
discovered they only just
discovered germs less than fewer
than 150 years ago yeah right so
people drove the area that you even
should wash your hands yeah
exactly for you know delivering a
baby or something that was that
was new yeah the gym fear of
disease was opposed for a long
time by the medical establishment
it's like actually worth noting that
like you know literally the official
line was germs were fake yes uh
and the doctors are clean so yeah
doctors exactly um and you know
if you don't have like a good sort of
microscope or something and
someone tells you that there's like
 these tiny creatures that you can't
see I mean it sounds like witchcraft
yeah it's like um but there's tiny
creatures that you can't see that are
on your hands and if you touch
something else those tiny creatures
are going to go in someone else to
basically bacteria and viruses and
uh they're gonna maybe die and
and um they're so small you can't
see them like once you get markers
microscopes people like okay I see
like little things wiggling around
like I don't know what those things
are but they don't look good um
but for a while they were like if
this they're like this is prosperous
this you're trying to tell my little
tiny things that are the small are
the real reason we're gonna get ill
as opposed to like you know bad
spirits or something you know like
because they would like they
would just think that there was like
bad air or something it's like there's
two places first you know too
much blood sticks yeah this this
place is cursed that's why we get ill
it's like or maybe this it's got some
bacteria yeah um so yeah it took a
while and they put that with that
for a long time um and we didn't
even figure out like antibiotics
until last century yes so yeah
because in World War one yeah I
believe so many people died of
infections yeah then died from
actual wounds yeah I mean if
you're sitting there in a trench
covered in mud and blood and you
get a scratch yes I mean that
scratches May probably end of you
you know yeah what's the name of
that movie the one that was like all
filmed in one take the world where
it's is it 1917 or 1917 I think that's
it yeah that that movie just made
me like gosh I'm glad that I did not
have to yeah some Next Level
Slaughter yeah it was brutal yeah I
wonder what do you ever wonder
what the things are you know how
we look and look back at
something like you know the
germs which seems very obvious
now I wonder what the things are
that are happening right now that
people are getting sick from and
dying from the 100 years from now
people are going to look back and
be like wait they didn't they didn't
know that how did they not know
that well really the probability of
 death at this point and I mean
unless someone's engaging in very
dangerous activity um is is low um
so our lifespans we're really
reaching pretty much the end of
our natural lifespans so now if
somebody uh drinks a lot of
alcohol heavy drugs or uh smoking
is really bad you know these things
can have a serious impact on
lifespan but if you don't do
anything like that you're probably
you know probably gonna live till
75 80 years old um you know
we're kind of like our pre-
programmed to live around that the
human lifespans around around 80.
yeah so um that's just what's
programmed into us um and then
actually for whatever reason uh
women are programmed to live
slightly longer than men so they've
it could be that you've got X Y
chromosome and and like men
don't have the redundancy of a
double X chromosome so if there's
an error on either the x or the Y it's
gonna you know reduce your
lifespan I think actually technically
testosterone I think also yeah yeah
so and then we also do a lot of
really stupid stuff we do a lot of
stupid stuff but um but but the it's
just the statistics are very clear I
think it's neverwhere in the world a
woman live longer than men even
if you account for war and
adventurous and what's really
interesting as well is that the
probability of a male child being
born is slightly higher it is 51 and
49 yeah so it's interesting that it
actually accounts for that yeah this
is men are more likely to die at
every year of age yeah literally
from a baby to to when you're old
um that's interesting tell me more
about um so I'll be honest of all the
things you do and all the
companies you run I think it's all
awesome the one thing that does
concern me and I know concerns a
lot of people out there so I do have
to bring it up which is neuralink
sure so firstly can you explain what
neuralink is and what the goal of it
is uh we put a chip in your brain to
control your mind yeah thank you
all right concerns not alleviated
yeah um Jump Right In step right
up who wants one um no so so
normally you'll be able to see
neuralink coming from a very long
 distance because any device that
you implant in a human is you
have to go through so many tests
um it moves very slowly you just
to a few people at a time and then
um you go to extreme lengths to
prove safety um you have to go
through the FDA approvals like
we're not trying to sidestep any you
know uh regulatory approvals for
um doing everything you know
buy the book and uh with
maximum we're really actually
we're going uh far beyond what the
requirements are of the FDA from
a safety standpoint um and the the
initial devices will really just be a
pretty basic um it'll be about
restoring functionality to people
who've lost their connection
between their their brain and their
body so you can imagine like if say
Stephen Hawking could talk or
communicate um as fast as
somebody with a fully functioning
body that would be amazing so
that's like the what we're trying to
do that's our first application is to
restore functionality to
quadriplegics tetraplegics and and
people who have just for one eight
whatever reason and no longer
have a connection between or a
limited connection between their
they're they're right in their body
um and then the second application
would be restoration of eyesight so
if somebody's gone completely
blind maybe even just lost the optic
nerve um you can actually still uh
directly uh assimilate the neurons
in the visual part of the cortex so
you can give a direct Vision to the
brain in fact you could actually
depending upon what cameras you
used you can actually see in
different wavelengths okay you
know like uh Jordi laforge from
like you know you could like have
that like I actually watched like an
episode of Star Tech Next
Generation with special effects
compared to what we're used to
like you know not that great but
he's got like the wrap around you
know like glasses and you can see
in different uh wavelengths uh so
you can see like uh ultraviolet
infrared and that kind of thing so
you can actually do that you can
say like you could see in radar if
you want yeah and what's the
what's the long term what's the
 long-term goal for it because I
think myself and others I think the
the first part is the first part sounds
sounds fine sounds yeah that's like
hard to argue with yeah yeah um
but long term I think I mean the
concern that people have is is this
just leading us into this dystopian
transhumanist future where where
does it go what are the what are the
ethical boundaries of it well I mean
the thing I wanted to emphasize is
that it's not going to like sort of
pounce on us overnight it'll you'll
see it coming it's going to be very
slow in fact I I really think that um
artificial general intelligence or
digital super intelligence is likely
to arrive before we have really
Advanced neural Links at least
that's where the trend is right now
 so um but but ultimately the idea
would be to achieve a symbiosis
between our biological mind and
our kind of digital mind so we're
already kind of a cyborg if you
think of like your phone and your
computers as an extension of
yourself in fact like if you leave
your phone behind it's like you
have missing limb syndrome you're
like where'd it go you know um
and uh so the phone is a kind of an
extension of myself the computer
is uh the first applications that we
use are operating an extension of
self so we are already a cyborg it's
just that the interface is uh with our
eyes and our fingers yeah um and
um and that that interface
especially output the rate at which
we can type words into a phone or
 a computer just it's very slow our
input is much better because with
with the data rate from vision is um
you know I don't know many
thousands of times maybe a million
times better than the rate at which
we can um output so our input is
like maybe roughly a million times
better than output and uh so so
what what a neural like device can
do is improve that bandwidth allow
you allow um here to be sort of
much more symbiotic with your
the the AI extension of yourself so
you can think of like like a human
brain really is could be ugly
divided into two parts one is kind
of like the Primitive uh brain um
the reptile brand sometimes called
you know it's like a sort of Basic
Instinct and um and then we've got
 the cortex like the higher level
thinking planning and that kind of
thing um but the two operate
symbiotically so I haven't yet met
anyone who wants to delete their
limbic system or delete their cortex
everyone's quite happy having both
yeah they're like I like it the way it
is you know but your cortex is way
smarter than your Olympic system
so but the irony is that even though
the cortex is way smarter than the
living system most of what it's
doing is trying to make the
Olympic system happy cyclomic
systems hungy I'm hungry okay
let's get some food um the limbic
system is warning okay let's you
know have sex or whatever we'll
see I mean the sheer amount of of
effort the you know the cortexes
 have of all the humans have put
into trying to get laid is insane it's
got to keep the species going yeah
but not even with even if you know
it's not for procreation like like the
limbic system is is really like too
simple to understand that like sex
does not result in in procreation
because for almost all of human
existence that it did um they're
both control it's a very recent thing
so the the limit system is like
trying to incent procreation and um
but but now we can effectively
hack the limbic system by doing
procreation by having sex without
procreation um so which is I guess
maybe part of the the issue with uh
you know why do we have both
kids it's like in the past it would
just happen because you know in
 order to make a living system
happy you'd have sex you you
didn't have birth control so if you
out where you'd pop out some kids
yes um so that's that's how it used
to be um so so that so even though
you've got a cortex that's way
smarter than the limbic system the
cortex is still basically just trying
to make limit system happy and
um and then if you think like the
computers as a sort of a third layer
um the AI is a third layer it's not
necessarily the case that the AI
would be acting contrary to our
interests I think if it's closely
linked with uh biological
intelligence I think it could um
actually be just again trying to
make the cortex happy which is
trying to make the limbic system
 happy so I think we'll put even
more computing power to try to get
laid basically um now the AI is
going to help you get laid I think I
think what it is that that concerns
people about it number one I'm you
know number one being new but I
think the main thing is is the the
fact that this is something that's
like inside your body right I think
the idea of putting a chip ins the
idea of someone putting a chip in
my brain I I just have a I have a
visceral would it be though long
term I mean I hope so I think it
should be optional yeah be bizarre
if it was not um no I think it's kind
of like the reason I ask is because
smartphones right now are sort of
optional but if you don't have a
smartphone the way everything is
sort of designed around Society um
you yes you cannot have a
smartphone but it's a massive
hindrance and disadvantage in
many ways true a smartphone is
almost essential and a modern
society to do things yeah um so
could a neural link end up in that
same sort of place it's possible but
I'm just saying if it does it's a it's
it's many decades from now so it's
not like you know it's not today's
problem yeah I'd worry a bit more
about digital super intelligence I'd
worry about let's try to avoid world
war three yeah uh let's let's make
sure we're at least having enough
kids to sustain our population you
know basic stuff like that yeah
what's your greatest concern with
artificial intelligence because I
know that you have worked with it
but also I know it's something that
you personally have massive
concerns about as well which
you've voiced in this podcast and
elsewhere yeah I I think that
actually the most likely outcome
for artificial intelligence is is that it
is good that it will um improve our
lives most likely but there's some
chance that it will not and I think
we just need to be very cognizant
of that and understand it's a
powerful technology it's a double-
edged sword um and we need to
put a lot of effort into ensuring that
uh we have a good AI outcome and
not a bad one what does a good
one look like well if I'd
recommend people read the Ian
Banks Books Okay uh the culture
 books um that's the best uh
representation of a positive AI
human future that I've seen okay
um so that's my recommendation I
mean it effectively AI I think it it
will massively enhance the human
ability it's like a just a massive
amplifier human ability um just
like the computer was um so it
really is just a question of like does
does it there's some risk that it
doesn't really amplify human
activity but it starts basically just
being in charge yeah and you know
there's some risk it may you know
view Humanity negatively and
decide that we're a blight on the
earth like like I think like like a
very dangerous thing would be if
the if these sort of human
extinctionist philosophy somehow
 got into AI that would be bad like
that guy that was on the front page
in New York Times saying you
know eight billion people on Earth
three we don't want him coding it
we don't want him coding you yeah
safe to say there's quite a few
people in the cycle of the woods
who have that yeah either explicit
or implicit extinctionist view yes
where they view Humanity as a
blight on the face yeah there's a lot
of antenatalists in the in the world
and people who and Andrea
actually anti-human yes yes like
you said people who don't have the
pride in Being Human right there's
people who really feel like guilty
people even say that that's a
speciesism you know that's it yeah
yeah I mean I'm a human
 supremacist I'll I'll be open about
that one yeah I mean I think uh we
gotta fight for team human like if
we don't fight for as humans who
we will yeah I mean if the Earth
exists and humans do not then it's
like we're saving the planet for
who at that point yeah what do you
think about AI replacing jobs
though because that's uh that's a
big concern even if AI doesn't sort
of go Rogue and start doing
something directly horrible I think
a lot of people's concerns is just
hey uh what about everyone's jobs
I will certainly be very disruptive
because jobs were different um so
no I think yeah the the rate of
change the rate the change caused
by AI is going to be pretty radical
so that there will you know a lot of
 jobs that are that currently exist
won't exist in the future I think
there will be new jobs um and I do
think like in a benign AI scenario
we will really have an age of
abundance um the I think really
goods and services unless they're
artificially made scarce like like it's
specialized artwork or you want
that particular house in that
neighborhood um like it has to be
an artificial scarcity but anything
that is not made artificially scarce
will be plentiful as in a benign AI
scenario you'll be able to have any
products and services you want
that anyone will does that not start
to cause a whole new level of
problems yeah it does it's like this
it's like you you know there's some
things which sound like a like a a
blessing but may in fact be a curse
yeah like I think you will live
forever it sounds like a blessing it's
actually a curse you would not
want to live forever you don't
know how long forever is um and
uh and if you say another potential
curse is you can have anything you
want effortlessly are you sure you
want that yeah does anything
matter at that point yeah um and
and what about the value I mean I
think a lot of the value of work
isn't just getting money to buy
things is the meaning it's the
purpose it's knowing that you
worked for this thing right it's
different it's different to get 10
million dollars because someone
just gave you 10 million dollars or
you won a lottery versus you
 created a business and sold
products and services that helped
you to earn that money exactly so
it's like how do we find meaning
um and relevance yeah um if you
have an age of abundance where
the computer you just ask for
anything and get it um it is
something you will have struggle
with that that'll that'll be uh I don't
know it's I think that's kind of most
likely where we're headed is in age
of abundance [Music] um but it
will definitely cause some
existential angst um what are you
most optimistic about in fact I
should say like okay for a neural
link device I mean part of what I'm
hoping is here in a benign AI
scenario like how do we even go
along for the ride how do we even
understand the AI okay like you've
got some sort of you know
incredible intelligence unless we
do sort of effectively have better
symbiosis increase the bandwidth
to our the AI extension of
ourselves effectively augment our
human intelligence substantially
um we may not even be able to
appreciate the Wonders that will
exist in the future like how do you
even go along for the ride and
appreciate the I don't know
potentially amazing things in the
future yeah hmm what gives you
what what keeps you optimistic
day to day you're you're a busy
man you're running all these
companies you've got a busy
family life going on you've got
praise criticism love hate flowing
 in all different directions but
number one two two questions
actually number one how do you
stage how do you stay sane and
grounded with it all because
something that's always makes you
think I'm saying I think you're
certainly grounded I think you're
grounded honestly I mean the fact
that we're sitting here and that you
know you interact with so many
people I mean let's be honest 99 of
people were in your position they
wouldn't be doing what you're
doing on on any level um you're
you're there on Twitter you're
cracking jokes you're posting
memes and responding I mean if
it's you're you're who you are but
you're also you strike me as a a
normal guy who's doing
 extraordinary things rather than
someone who's just completely like
I don't know out there and I
couldn't even have a conversation
with you know so that's what I
mean by saying um well I I do
think it's important to um you
know not get uh you know quite
Scarface don't get high on your
own supply of course in the end he
did um but uh you don't want to
start thinking too highly of yourself
um because it actually reduces
your feedback loop you you know
if you think you're too smart you
you stop um listening to criticism
so I think you know the Twitter is
actually helpful for that you know
instantly if you will not try about
voicing their opinions um so uh the
frogs with 20 followers keep you
 in check yeah I mean yeah I've got
uh you know like there's just some
things I'm trying to get
accomplished and you know
Advanced rocketry and sustainable
energy and put in case of Twitter
freedom of speech so I think these
are these things are these things
mean a lot to me so I am I guess
I'm motivated to get these things
done in order to get these things
done I have to stay sane because
um you know uh like physics is the
law and everything else is
recommendation and if you if you
go crazy and you don't you do
things happen you know agree with
physics the Rockets blow up the
cars don't work so physics is a
heart you know harsh judge it's you
you get you get the engineering
 and math right or you don't and it
doesn't work if you don't so you
you have to stay grounded in order
for the Technologies to actually
work I hear that Elon very very
grateful for you taking the time out
for this conversation I want to say I
mean I said this on Twitter but I
want to say it to your face I
massively admire and appreciate
what you're doing um a massive
thank you to from everyone who
has been dealing with the nonsense
on Twitter who's managed to get
their accounts back and be able to
speak freely and all that um I want
to say that but honestly I think
what you're doing is is awesome
you're a huge inspiration I know
that in this age of criticism people
don't like to tell people hey you're
 doing a good job I want to
encourage you I want to uplift you
so I want to do that and uh God
bless you well thank you I
appreciate it man thank you it was
a pleasure .

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