Profile

The Development and Evolution of

Person-Centered Expressive Art Therapy:
A Conversation With Natalie Rogers
John Sommers-Flanagan

Many counselors are unaware that Natalie Rogers, daughter of Carl Rogers, has extended her father’s work into the
creative and expressive arts. This article includes a verbatim conversation with Natalie Rogers as she reflects on her
childhood and her professional work. Person-centered expressive art therapy is an alternative to traditional verbal
counseling approaches and may be especially helpful for clients stuck in linear, rigid, and analytic ways of thinking
and experiencing the world.

As most counselors know very well, person-centered theory 1980). She leads an active life, conducting expressive arts
and therapy began with and evolved from the thinking, re- therapy trainings in Europe, Russia, Latin America, Japan,
search, and practice of Carl Ransom Rogers (C. R. Rogers, and the United States. Natalie trained with her father and was
1942, 1951; Wickman & Campbell, 2003). What is perhaps his colleague for seven summers. After working in a psychi-
less well-known is that Natalie Rogers, daughter of Carl Rog- atric clinic, in a college counseling center, and as a therapist
ers, has embraced her father’s work and integrated his thera- in a school for emotionally disturbed children, Natalie was
peutic approach with her own creative approach to healing in private practice for 25 years. She taught at the California
and change (Carlson & Kjos, 2000; N. Rogers, 1993). Institute of Integral Studies, and she is presently teaching at
Carl Rogers is renowned for embodying his theory in every- Saybrook Graduate School. She was awarded the first Life-
day life (Zimring & Raskin, 1992). As Bankart (1997) stated, time Achievement Award by the International Expressive Arts
“Watching [Carl Rogers] was almost a sacred experience for Therapy Association in 1998. Natalie is an artist, a mother of
me. His interactions with clients were like small miracles of three professional daughters, and a proud grandmother. The
compassionate understanding and communication” (p. 299). best resource for more information on Natalie Rogers and how
Carl Rogers’s writing also was consistent with his theoretical to obtain training in person-centered expressive art therapy is
approach, disarmingly open, and unpretentious. For example, through her Web site, www.nrogers.com.
rarely does one find a staunch academic titling a chapter in The conversations that follow provide the reader with a
one of his books, “This is Me” (C. R. Rogers, 1961). picture of the origin, development, and application of Natalie
Similar to her father, Natalie Rogers, now age 78, also has Rogers’s person-centered expressive art therapy. To understand
woven person-centered principles into the fabric of her personal her therapeutic methods, I begin with background informa-
and professional life. In particular, she has used, and continues to tion about Carl Rogers because of his powerful impact on
use, the person-centered approach to facilitate therapeutic growth her personal and professional development. In particular, his
through art, movement, writing, and music modalities (Carlson openness to new learning and experience (a key theoretical
& Kjos, 2000; N. Rogers, 1993). Natalie Rogers refers to this concept in person-centered therapy) seems directly related to
therapeutic integration as person-centered expressive art therapy Natalie’s ability to freely explore the integration of person-
and, in 1984, founded the Person-Centered Expressive Therapy centered theory and the expressive arts.
Institute (N. Rogers, personal communication, April 21, 2003). Two recent telephone interviews with Natalie Rogers
Natalie Rogers is a registered expressive art therapist and provide the substance of this article (N. Rogers, personal
the author of many articles and two books, The Creative Con- communication, April 21 and 25, 2003). The interviews
nection: Expressive Arts as Healing (N. Rogers, 1993) and include childhood experiences; her decision, prompted
Emerging Woman: A Decade of Midlife Transitions (N. Rogers, by a conversation with Abraham Maslow, to work with
John Sommers-Flanagan, Department of Educational Leadership and Counseling, The University of Montana. The author offers
many thanks to Natalie Rogers for participating in two lengthy interviews and also thanks Rita Sommers-Flanagan for her editorial
acumen and assistance. Correspondence concerning this article should be addressed to John Sommers-Flanagan, School of Educa-
tion, The University of Montana, Missoula, MT 59812 (e-mail: john.sf@mso.umt.edu).

© 2007 by the American Counseling Association. All rights reserved.

120 Journal of Counseling & Development ■ Winter 2007 ■ Volume 85

A Conversation With Natalie Rogers
person-centered theory and therapy; and the progression of
her thinking to the present.
A Father’s Legacy
Carl Rogers once referred to himself as a “gadfly” (C. R. Rog-
ers, 1980, p. 53) within the field of psychology. This reference
captures his tendency to experiment; to push institutional and
professional boundaries; and to be, in Natalie Rogers’s words,
“a revolutionary” (N. Rogers, personal communication, April
21, 2003).
Carl Rogers pioneered the use of audiotapes to study psy-
chotherapy process and outcome (C. R. Rogers, 1942). Despite
his strong interest in, and emphasis on, scientific research
throughout his career, his approach was often dismissed by
mainstream academic psychologists, probably because it fo-
cused almost exclusively on the relationship between therapist
and client (C. R. Rogers & Russell, 2002). Additionally, in his
work, he strayed from the psychological mainstream, breaking
down boundaries between psychology and other nonmedical
mental health disciplines. In particular, he fraternized with
(even claiming to learn from) counselors, social workers, and
educators, sometimes publishing in their journals (C. R. Rogers,
1958, 1969). He facilitated encounter groups and expressed
disdain for the time-honored, traditional class lecture. He also
rebelled against assigning course grades, encouraging students
to be their own teachers and evaluators (C. R. Rogers, 1969;
Sommers-Flanagan & Sommers-Flanagan, 2004).
In person-centered theory, openness to learning from
new experiences is considered one of the greatest indica-
tors of optimal functioning (C. R. Rogers, 1959). As Bohart
(1995) has stated, “Dysfunctionality is really a failure to
learn and change” (p. 94). Key personal qualities that Carl
Rogers passed on to his daughter were a willingness to
take professional risks and a valuing of authentic learning
and experience.
Carl Rogers believed that the relationship between therapist and
client facilitates emotional and psychological healing. In a sum-
mary statement about the nature of this relationship, he stated,
the relationship which I have found helpful is characterized by
a sort of transparency on my part, in which my real feelings
are evident; by an acceptance of this other person as a separate
person with value in his [or her] own right; and by a deep
empathic understanding which enables me to see his private
world through his eyes. (C. R. Rogers, 1961, p. 34)
Furthermore, Carl Rogers believed deeply in the client’s
ability to “[know] what hurts, what directions to go in, what
problems are crucial” (C. R. Rogers, 1961, pp. 11–12). This
philosophical and personal emphasis on trusting the client is
a defining and revolutionary feature of the person-centered
approach and is an integral component of Natalie Rogers’s
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person-centered expressive art therapeutic approach (N. Rog-
ers, personal communication, April 25, 2003).
A Home That Fostered Creativity
Carl Rogers married Helen Elliot in 1924. Ms. Elliot was
an art major and was “gentle, straight-forward, and open-
minded” (Parrott, 1997, p. 184). They had two children, David
and Natalie. In the following excerpt, Natalie reflects on her
childhood and her parents’ attitudes and values.
John Sommers-Flanagan (JSF): Before we talk about the
integration of art and movement with person-centered therapy,
you mentioned earlier that your father was remarkable, but of
course you had some complaints about him, because he was
your father. And I also read in your interview with Lisa Tenzin-
Dolma that you grew up in a very creative and nonjudgmental
household. And so I wanted to ask the question “How did your
mother and father create a creative, nonjudgmental household
for you? What did they do?”
Natalie Rogers (NR): Well, that may be somewhat of an
overstatement. My folks, both of them, definitely had standards
of behavior, what was right and what was wrong. So, it wasn’t
a “permissive” atmosphere that had no boundaries or ethics.
I think I grew up with one of the most profoundly ethical ap-
proaches to parenting that there is. But basically in terms of
creativity, it was my mother who was an artist and a very warm,
nurturing, caring mom who was always there. She was an at-
home mom, that’s what we would call her now, and was very
supportive. I always felt safe and cared for, as did my brother.
And she encouraged our art, the creative art. She was more of
a teacher than I am. She did have formal art training and she
taught us art, but she didn’t really criticize us in terms of what
we were doing. So there was just a lot of encouragement.
And then both my dad and mother were very much inter-
ested in progressive education. They sacrificed a lot because
they were poor. This was the Depression era. I was born in
1928. I remember my mother said she’d sold Dad’s gold wed-
ding ring because he never wore it. So she just sold it. That
was indicative of the desperateness of their situation. However,
they still managed to send us to a private, progressive school,
so I know they sacrificed some of their own needs. I was never
graded until I went to college. I had report cards but no As,
Bs, or Cs, and that was also true when I went to school at the
university lab school in Columbus, Ohio. They supported
how we learned, so I didn’t grow up in a highly judgmental
educational system. The system where I learned was always
supportive of learning, research, and creativity. I realized
I could go into an art studio at school and just decide what I
wanted to do and get support doing it.
My dad always said, “I wasn’t a very good father when you
kids were young,” which isn’t exactly true. He was referring
to the fact that he worked all day and mostly went to his study
121

all evening. He did tell us wonderful bedtime stories about his
life as a young boy on the farm and with his dog, Shep. But
other than that, we didn’t see a whole lot of him. Mother was
the major parent, except, since he was in academia a lot, we
did have a month in the summer together. So that was when I
really got to know him, usually around his building projects.
We had a summer cottage, and working with him was always
the way to get to know him. To do projects, like building a
bridge or building steps to the beach or building a boat. He
liked carpentry, so the way to get to know him was to be a
gofer. He was kind and loving, but during the academic year
we didn’t see a whole lot of him.
JSF: Except for those monthlong doses in the summer.
NR: Yes, and then as a teenager, when I was rebellious,
he was really there. Because by then he’d developed his own
theories of psychotherapy and he was a very good listener
and he was nonjudgmental. My mother was stricter and was
more judgmental, and so I found I could really talk to my dad
about life issues I was going through as a rebellious teenager.
I was heard—really listened to.
JSF: It’s interesting how, in two-parent families, when they
work well, at least one of the parents can listen, at least most
of the time, and let teenagers develop their sense of self.
NR: And in terms of Carl’s theories about education,
I remember hearing him talk and audiences asking about
permissiveness and freedom, but I think the permissiveness
often has been misunderstood. He said that any thoughts and
feelings are OK, but not all behavior is acceptable. Unless that
is really made clear, both in the theory and in the practice, it
can be disastrous.
The Origin of Person-Centered
Expressive Art Therapy
For Natalie, the integration of person-centered principles
and art is a natural combination of her parents’ most distinct
qualities. Her mother was a very creative artist. Consistent
with the sequence she described earlier, Natalie absorbed her
mother’s interest in art early on, later coming to know and
appreciate her father’s person-centered theory and therapy.
This next interview excerpt focuses on how Natalie came to
integrate these two parts of herself.
JSF: How did you choose to integrate art and movement
with person-centered therapy?
NR: Well, you’ve heard how some of that came about
because I grew up enjoying art. Creativity was nurtured at
home and at school. Abe Maslow was the one who, when I
met him socially, said, “Why don’t you come back to school?”
I was a young married woman and hadn’t even thought about
continuing my education. He became my mentor, and, of
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Sommers-Flanagan
course, his theories of creativity along with Carl’s were very
important to me. So I did my master’s thesis at Brandeis Uni-
versity on play therapy and creativity. I started out as a play
therapist with children, and so the whole idea of using art as
a free spirit was part of my integration very early on. Then,
when I went into private practice, I integrated what had been
healing for me—and much of it came through art. I realized
that if I stayed with the person-centered principles, I would
not use art to diagnose or treat or analyze. If I just used art as
a self-expression and art as a language between us, I could
do no harm—which was my major concern since I hadn’t
had formal training in art therapy, and at that time there was
no such word as expressive art. So I just began to ask clients
if they would like to express what they were feeling through
color or clay, and then when we finished I’d get them to talk
about it, what it meant for them. Also, I would ask them,
“Was this helpful?”
JSF: And this was with adult clients?
NR: Yes, adult clients. And their response was definitely
“Yes, this was helpful!” And so like Carl, I stayed open to
learning from my clients. They are always our best teachers.
My work began to evolve. Then, later on when I divorced, I
moved to California and asked Carl if he would like to do some
work together, and he said, “Yes, I’d love to.” So he invited
several people, and I invited several people, and we created
a staff of seven or eight people. That is when the weeklong
person-centered approach summer workshops began.
JSF: What year was that?
NR: The first one was in 1974. We had intensive weeklong
summer workshops with as many as 100 or 150 people, at
various university settings. Those were wonderfully experi-
mental for the participants and the staff alike. However, at
that time, it was all verbal, and I realized that my body
became a sponge for all of the deep pain and anger and
frustration being expressed. They were wonderful encounter
groups, but . . . they didn’t pay any attention to what was
going in our bodies. By then I’d had movement training with
Anna Halpern and art therapy training with Janie Rhyne.
So I suggested (along with a couple of colleagues) that we
go into another room to explore the same personal issues
people were verbalizing but use other ways of dealing with
them. It was a very experimental time, which was exciting
because we used art and movement and psychodrama. We
created what we wanted to do and how we wanted to do it
out of the situation. The group size was about 20. It was
collaborative. We learned how much what I would now call
expressive art is a language of healing. People found other
ways to go inward, other ways to speak. From there, I began
to develop a training program in person-centered expressive
art. It evolved out of these groups, as did the theories and
the concepts.
■ Winter 2007 ■ Volume 85

A Conversation With Natalie Rogers
JSF: As you talk about it, it really sounds like another
language, as you move past the verbal . . .
NR: Yes, art is a language. With expressive art, we are
concerned as much about the process as we are about the
product. And it is not a product to go on a wall or in a mu-
seum. It could be, but that isn’t the intent. The intent—just
as in client-centered therapy—is to peel away the layers of
defense and find our true nature. Art allows us to go into
our pain, rage, and grief. Using art sometimes is much
more effective than words to deal with some of these very
difficult emotions.
JSF: And it seems like it helps people go into the pain and
the rage, but also to become more playful.
NR: Absolutely.
JSF: I hear it as a continuation of your play therapy with
children, only with adults.
NR: It is. Exactly. You’ve got it. The training program evolved
and now it’s called the Person-Centered Expressive Therapy Insti-
tute. It’s an institute I created. . . . We brought costumes—this is
similar to what I did as a mother creating an environment for play
and self-exploration. We have costume boxes and clay and paint
and face paint. What is so wonderful is that using the arts means
we are not only sharing our grief, but, after releasing the pain,
there is often a lot of joy and laughter and sometimes drumming,
chanting, and rituals. Indigenous people understand this process
of using the whole body and sound and art as a healing process.
They also know we are all deeply connected.
I feel I’m embodying Carl’s theory of creativity because
he said we need psychological safety and freedom in order
to be creative. So we, the faculty of the Person-Centered
Expressive Therapy Institute, create an atmosphere of per-
son-centered safety which is nonjudgmental. That includes
being nonjudgmental and nonanalytic about the art, or the
movement, or the writing.
JSF: So you’re using the core conditions with the expres-
sive and artistic modalities. It sounds like one of the things
you’ve noticed is that joy that comes after the healing.
NR: As part of the healing, yes. It’s often true—joy comes
out on a day of intense work in a group. Groups are so ef-
fective for this depth work. Individuals go into their own
grief or pain or anger within the context of a group where
each member is doing their own individual work. Which
means each person can do [his or her] own work, but it is in
the atmosphere that I call the sacred space, the group. Then,
they can begin to share what they’ve been doing, personally,
with two or three others or the whole group. Being heard at
that level by a group is very powerful. There is a release after
deep sharing. So it often happens that the group then hungers
for a free-for-all dance and drumming and painting with no
structure whatsoever. Those are the evenings I love. When
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the students say, “OK. We had a great day, and now it’s time
for open studio.” We put on music, bring out the drums and
music-making instruments and scarves. The community spirit
that evolves in an evening like that after we’ve done so much
inner work is just incredible. We spontaneously cocreate. A
collective consciousness emerges.
In his writings, Carl Rogers often credited his clients with
being his greatest source of learning. Natalie is reporting a
similar theme. It also seems clear that when she arrived in
California in 1974, her father was ready and willing to work
with her and learn from her. In fact, in his earlier writings,
Carl Rogers gave credit to his children for teaching him “far
more about individuals, their development, and their relation-
ships, than I could ever have learned professionally” (C. R.
Rogers, 1961, pp. 12–13).
Later in her life, Natalie became, in some ways, an ever-
growing source of learning for Carl. Specifically, she shared
how she and other important women in his life influenced him
in the areas of feminism and spirituality.
NR: As a daughter, I always had some complaints about
my father. Any kid does. But in terms of being a person cre-
ating research and developing theory, I admire him tremen-
dously—his whole learning process right up until he died. He
was always on new frontiers and absorbing new ideas. I think
some of us, the women around him, including Maria Bowen,
Maureen O’Hara, Betty Meador, and Gay Swenson [Barfield],
I think we educated him quite well in terms of feminist feel-
ings, thoughts, and theory. We also pushed and prodded him
to open to the spiritual realm, which is ironic because he came
from such a deeply religious background. As a 22-year-old,
he rejected all religion and shifted his focus to psychology.
So it was interesting to see him open up to new possibilities
in his older years—that there might be some higher energy
source, a God or a power that was greater than human power.
I think that was quite remarkable.
Integrating Diverse Theoretical and
Cultural Perspectives
While I listened to Natalie, a repeating and dominant theme
in her life and her father’s life became more apparent. They
were both always open to learning, changing, and growing.
As Natalie spoke about how she uses person-centered therapy
principles in conjunction with art, dance, music, and move-
ment, she consistently used language associated with other
theoretical orientations and other cultural perspectives. This
led to a discussion of how she integrated other theoretical
frameworks into her own.
JSF: As I listen to you talk, it’s clear that the river, the
main river of theoretical perspective that you follow is person-
123

centered. But I also hear some other streams of thought, and
I just want to throw them out to see if that’s an intentional
process on your part. I read in your Creative Connection
book that you refer to accepting the shadow. That sounds
Jungian. And then some of your dressing up and costuming
sounds a little bit Gestalt. And then, of course, the American
Indian spirituality is woven in. Are those things that you’ve
intentionally articulated, or does that flow from the person-
centered river of thought?
NR: Well, I think it just came first from my own desire
to do these things, and then as we got into it and I started
reading, I found what I was doing was supported by Jungian
thought. I’m not a scholar of Jung, but I like a lot of what
I’ve read of his work.
JSF: Yes. So it seems like it mostly originates with your
experience. Is that what you’re saying?
NR: It starts from my experience and what we explored and
played with experimentally. And then I find out what works and then
go find other people who have done it. I’ve never had Jungian
training. I’ve read Jung some, but I’ve had Gestalt training, and I
liked a lot of that. I didn’t particularly like Fritz Perls, but I liked
what he wrote, and I liked some of the training I had. Also, I had
movement therapy training. A lot of my own personal growth
came when first I went to a dance-training program and then
authentic movement classes. People learn differently. I’ve come
to understand that people learn through different modalities.
Actually, I learn the most about myself through movement, even
though I’ve been trained more as an artist and probably do more
art. But other people find visual art as a channel. We just include
it all and let people do what works for them.
JSF: Yes, kind of what they’re drawn toward.
NR: I find what Native Americans have always done and
then realize, oh, that’s what I’m doing. So then I go find out
more about it. I think it came in that direction.
JSF: So really a product of your experience and then you
discover that there are some traditions or theories . . .
NR: . . . that really back it up.
Once again, it is possible to view a key component of per-
son-centered theory from Natalie’s description of her diverse
theoretical discoveries. Not only is she open to what other the-
ories, cultures, and teachers can offer her, but also validation
of her learning is based, overall, on her personal experience.
This validation process is exactly what Carl Rogers referred
to when he advocated the concept of trusting the organism
(C. R. Rogers, 1959). Natalie has adopted her father’s phi-
losophy in that she trusts her own organism and then is able
to link what she has experientially understood with existing
theoretical perspectives. In her book The Creative Connection,
she described her commitment to trusting clients:
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Sommers-Flanagan
Carl Rogers’s philosophy is based on a trust in an inherent
impulse toward growth in every individual. I base my approach
to expressive arts therapy on this very deep faith in the in-
nate capacity of each person to reach toward her [or his] full
potential. (N. Rogers, 1993, p. 3)
This deep and abiding trust of and respect for every person
that is inherent in person-centered theory and practice has
likely contributed to its popularity among divergent cultural
groups (Spangenberg, 2003).
Concluding Comments
Person-centered expressive art therapy is a modern approach
to counseling and psychotherapy based on the person-centered
tradition of Carl Rogers. Of all of the contemporary thera-
peutic modalities with roots in person-centered theory (and
there are many), Natalie Rogers’s approach is, not surpris-
ingly, the one that seems the most natural extension of her
father’s theoretical perspective (Axline, 1964; Gendlin, 1996;
Greenberg, 2002; Guerney, 2001; Watts & Broaddus, 2002).
In fact, Natalie is strongly nondirective in her approach, she
trusts the organism and wisdom of her clients, and she uses
her own personal experiences as a foundation for her theo-
retical musings. Using her own love of creativity and art in
combination with her father’s renowned therapeutic approach,
Natalie Rogers has developed a form of therapy that extends
person-centered counseling into a new and exciting domain.
From the person-centered perspective, it is the failure to
learn from experience that best characterizes psychopathol-
ogy. This is why person-centered therapists work so hard to
help clients become more open to learning from new experi-
ences. This is also why rigidity is considered the antithesis
of psychological health. Rigidity impairs learning. It is clear
from the comments of Natalie Rogers in this article that for
some therapists and some clients, person-centered expressive
art therapy may well be a solution to rigidity.
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