Speaker 1 0:06

And, well, I will just simply. I mean, put it simply. Put it simple. Yeah, the Local Government
Association of Zambia, of course, a very odd institution established way back in 1947 okay, yes, yes.
So that is the pre the pre independence and post independence. We've been in existence for that
long primarily to be the voice for local government, local authorities, so to promote and protect the
autonomy and interest of local authorities. Okay, the councils, we commonly refer them to councils,
but of course, it distinction between a council and a local authority, yeah. So really, it's just to be the
voice, the national voice, of local government, to ensure that the local authorities actually are given
the autonomy they require, given the support that they need for them to effectively deliver on their
mandate. The mandate is to provide quality municipal services. That's their primary mandate. Yeah,
yeah. So we, so we in terms of governance structure, we have at the apex of it, we've got our annual
conference, okay? Then below that, we've got the executive committee. Below that, we've got the
presidency. The presidency is quite representative in terms of region. So every province has a vice
president, okay? We've got the president of the association, but it contains over the presidency,
which is made up of 10 vice presidents. So we've got vice president Lusaka wapula And that kind of
thing. Yeah, yeah. So, and then, of course, we've got the provincial chapters, because we have to
decentralize operations. So the chapters there with their own leadership subcommittees or
provincial committees, just like it reflects what is obtaining in the local authorities so that they attend
to these issues. For instance, if it is to do with development planning, there has to be a
subcommittee finance, economics and that kind of thing. Okay, then ourselves. We are the
secretariat. So secretariat is headed by the executive director. Yeah, I've got two directories, finance
and then Corporate Services. Yeah, that's the way we are structured, in nutshell, really. So of course,
we collaborate. We are members of the Commonwealth local government forum. We are members
of the united states and local governments of Africa, UCLG, okay, which is at Africa level, and also
even at global level, united states and local governments, okay, yeah, but that's we can provide some
of those things, some of that information through our brochure. Again, we encourage you to get to
our website and just get to see get familiarize yourself. Yeah, very good. At least you have a fair share
of so we can get to your to your questions. Oh, okay, which one? Okay. Can you describe your
responsibilities in local government? Okay, yes, yes. So really, we Yeah, in the because I just gave you,
like, the overarching thing, promote and protect the interest and autonomy of local authorities. But
in that, there's also issue. There are issues of police reform, for instance, okay, yeah, yeah, we policy
on local government. So we are consulted. Actually, we are involved. That's why we appear before
various committees of Parliament, just like zipper does, yeah. So we appear on the committee on
local government, House of chiefs, or chiefs affairs, local government accounts, legal and whatever,
anything really. So just to ensure that the policies that are developed are really there to enhance the
role that local government plays, yeah, so that's that Yeah. So primarily a lobby and advocacy civil
society organization. We're not a government institution, but we represent public institutions. That's
a difference that we have. Yeah, our members are the local authority. So like, Lusaka, city council is a
member of the association, not the individuals. No, it's not the mayors and and the council
chairpersons of town clerks. No, no. So Lusaka is a member. So we are saying we have got 116
members certified into those you know, three categories, the city councils, which are only five, the
municipal councils are only 15, and the bulk of it is a 96 town councils, which we used to call district
councils, yeah, so those 16 make up the membership. Great,

Speaker 2 4:56
yeah. What are the guiding pieces of legislation? Action and policy for resource mobilization,
expenditure planning, debt,

Speaker 1 5:05

construction. Oh, okay, very good, yeah. So primarily, of course, in the the so we cannot do away
with the supreme law of the land, which is the constitution, yeah, but the principal act in local
government is actually the the Local Government Act number two of 2019, okay, of course, that now
has to really speak to all these other pieces of legislation, such as the National Planning and Budget
Act. Has to speak to the Local Government Act, the Public Finance Management Act, for instance,
also that one, because that was, that's what prescribes the whole process, yeah, how, how local
government can contract date, and that, although they are given the mandate to contract and be
contracted, even in terms of dates by the Local Government Act. But of course, this has to be in
tandem with what, for instance, the Public Finance Management Act prescribes. So basically, those
are the ones you can talk of urban What do you call this a urp, which is Urban and Regional Planning
Act. It actually plays a very critical role local government, the Public Health Act. So these are us, yeah,
the by the but the national budgeting and planning Act also. So what aspects of these frameworks
are working? Well, well, the I'll tell you one thing for a fact, that we've got a lot of wonderful pieces
of legislation in this country, but I think what really becomes a challenge from us is the
implementation of those laws. And again, one thing that we always caution our friends from Central
Government is that local government is actually unique. Okay, so the fact that something works with
central government is not guaranteed that work with local government, and that's why it's a
government. This is really government at local level, okay? So there's a distinction between central
and local government. So other jurisdictions, other countries, actually have got very specific laws
that apply primarily to local government as it is, because some of them really become a problem. For
instance, some of the provisions in the public and the Public Finance Management Act may are not
really in tandem with the principle of decentralization and decentralization by devolution. Okay? For
instance, you've got things whereby even dispose of assets right now, it has to be authorized by
central government sector, treasury and that kind of thing. Even issues of opening a bank account,
you see all that kind of thing. So those are contradicting the speed of centralization, because the
local authority, the way it is structured, it's a separate legal entity altogether. That's why it can be
sued and sued in its own right. So that separation, because what the Local Government Act, for
instance, is supposed to provide that oversight. But as the nitty gritties in terms of how local
authorities are supposed to function, they they must have some level of autonomy. Because
autonomy, what autonomy entails? That it entails responsiveness, yeah, otherwise, there will be
these rigidities, you know, you say, according to this law and whatever, something that may be
applicable, central government may not really bestow a local government level. So implementation
is, is a challenge. Yeah, provisions are there. They're very good, but just again over prescription stifles
that innovation from local government. That's where the challenges, yeah, don't need to be
improved. Well, there's need, there's need for improvement. First and foremost, all these pieces of
legislation have to really respond to the constitutional provisions. Because when you look at the
Constitution, even in terms of development, the Constitution recognizes that the the the local
authority is supposed to spearhead development district level, so everything else has to really be in
tandem with that spirit. But now you've got other pieces that may give pieces of legislation, that may
give power to other authorities, then it creates a problem. Yeah. So there's room for improvement?
Yeah. Very, very, like somebody will tell you that the biggest room in this world is a room for
improvement. It is big, yes, yes. So really, what we want is just harmonization of all the pieces of
legislation so that they are in tandem with the Constitution. Because even a lay person like myself, I
know that any law that contradicts the Constitution is declared now and void to the extent of that
inconsistency, you get the point. But we've got all these things. For instance, revenue, the rasa Act
has not been amended, and yet, when you look at. Um, the money that has been given to local
authorities Motor Vehicle Licensing is, yes, the Constitution says this is a function, and it's exclusive
function of local government. Yeah, that's what the problem is. So we've got all those the toes, for
instance, Anna National Road Fund act and whatever. So there are all those contradictions. So if you
pick the Constitution more, you discover that there are nice provisions which can enhance the
revenue base of local authorities, but the supporting pieces of legislation have not been repealed,
yeah, or have not been reviewed so that they really speak to that. That's where we see that
contradiction, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 10:41

What specific challenges do local authorities encounter

Speaker 1 10:47

in mobilizing revenue effectively? Yeah, mobilizing revenue effectively there. It's a quite a multi
faceted kind of issue. But as we speak right now, the of course, we do admit, even from the
association's point of view. There are a lot of revenue leakages, okay? So we need to strengthen that.
And obviously easier way to go. I mean, the most effective way to go is to is to digitalize or digitize. I
don't know which one is correct, but you know what it is, yeah, yeah. So really is to remove the
human hand as as much as possible, okay, and also to allow that flexibility for local authorities to
actually affect, you know, revenue this, as you may be aware, local authorities are endowed
differently, so their revenue bases are different. You know, despite all of them, like being 96 town
councils, but I can tell you that chilanga is different from kafua, even the neighboring kind of thing, so
they are not homogeneous. So flexibility is important. So there is now in the past. The history to this
is that when local authorities were really vibrant and they had buoyant sources of revenue, the local
authority had the powers to actually even enact laws, bylaws, to collect revenue. But right now,
before any Bylaw is actually approved, the business regulatory and review authority, brah has to
authorize that. You see you get the point. So it's an impediment in itself, because right now, we see,
even when a local authority has actually given valid reasons as to why, for instance, because it's quite
you know why some of these revenue measures are put in place is also to control. For instance,
when you go into a place where there is a lot of money of sand, the local authority will come up with
a sand Levy. He has to raise revenue, but primarily also to deter degradation of our environment. You
see all these things, but you find that even that right now, we've had experience where our members
have complained that they have submitted proposals for revenue enhancement, but it takes too long
for the BRR a to to approve. Okay, so those are things. So that's one. And then, of course, you need a
lot of sensitization for people to see the purpose of, you know, of paying for those services. Okay?
That's one thing that you have to know. And obviously the general economic performance that's as a
bearing whether you like it or not, yeah, if people's disposable incomes are very low, therefore it
becomes very difficult for them, even to, you know, to be able to comply with the taxes. So really, just
the entire system has to be really enhanced. Of course, we need to strengthen public financial
management systems at local level so that, like I said, those revenue leakages actually sealed, and
not really, you know, allowed to, to me, to go on like that. So that's, that's the thing, really, of course,
to be supported by central government in terms of some of the intervention that they may want to
put in to enhance their local revenue. So that's the thing. And of course, there's also political
interests. Yeah, it's, it becomes very emotive. I cannot lie to let noone lie to you. Even when you go to
certain local authorities, you find that the local authority might want to do certain things. But
obviously, because it contradicts the, maybe the political kind of, you know, situation there, some
decisions are actually stopped on the basis that, look, maybe they are going to make or they are not
really sitting very well with this political party. But it could be the opposition. It could be ruling. It
doesn't, it doesn't match. So politicians also, you know, in a way, and not, I'm not saying in all areas,
but in some ways they may become an major impediment. You know, as far as enhancing revenue is
concerned, yeah, so

Unknown Speaker 14:46

how are these challenges?

Speaker 1 14:49

Yeah, it does affect the overall health. Yeah, financial health, yes, they affect me in the sense that,
first and foremost, you have to know that in. Terms of the fiscal transfers, the transfers from central
government, they are very, very minimal right now, okay, funding from central government through
the local government equalization fund, it is insignificant. I can tell you for a fact right now, because
I'll give you an example. On average, most of these down councils, you find that their wage bill is
about 1.4 there about and that's I'm talking about necessary, without me talking about it, because it
speaks to the debt, because I know you may know as to why debt is accumulating. So that's a net
salary, which means they have not paid their napsa, they have not paid their pay as UN to zdra, they
have not paid their Nima, you know, even some largely enough union Jews are deducted that source.
Yeah. So now, average, on average, on a monthly basis, local authorities are receiving something like
maybe 600 or 700,000 as local government equalization fund. Now look at the gap. You've got 1.4 or
there about net salaries, just salaries. You are not talking about services. You get the point. And then
you've got a income that comes in through the government acquisition fund, 700,000 so that 600 to
700,000 Believe it or not, very few councils can raise that money from their own source revenue. Yes,
so that's a financing gap. So the money that they collect is not enough and it affects service delivery.
Yeah, it just means partly meets the salaries. That's a that's a real situation. Let noone really
sugarcoat it. It's a that's a reality on the ground. So local authorities are grossly underfunded. That's
one thing that you have to know. Okay, yeah, that's the situation that we that we have at the
moment. Yeah, are you aware of any initiatives

Unknown Speaker 16:54

that are in place to improve revenue mobilization?

Speaker 1 16:59

Yes, yes, yes, yes, of course we, we are a stakeholder. We collaborate with government. You mean
the meeting that I'm from, we've got Minister of Finance, Minister local government, taking a lead,
like I said, first and foremost, to really remove the human face. So digit, digitize or digitalize. It's one
of them, and then continue engaging the citizens. Okay, that's that's very good. And of course, we
need very supportive laws now, the harmonization of the laws. Give back the local authorities what
really belongs to them. Take Back the toes, take back the Motor Vehicle Licensing, take back the
trading electricity for your own information. These are the functions that local authorities used to
perform. And I can tell you, I think I was reasonably old enough that time to see that the local
authorities were really vibrant. They were able to provide municipal services. So that's that's the
thing, so to fill that, that financing gap. So there are these interventions right now, of course, is a core
and local authorities to be as innovative as possible, you know, that kind of thing, yeah, just to think
outside the the box, the the usual way of doing business, to try and see what Revenues can actually
be enhanced and all that. Yes, that is the situation that is really going on right now. So there are
endeavors. Even central government is actually very concerned about the rural revenues. Yeah, to

Speaker 2 18:25

what extent is the private sector involved in local revenue?

Speaker 1 18:30

Yeah, private sector is involved. It really depends on because first and foremost, we have to
understand that any economies Believe it or not, Zambian economy is primarily private sector driven,
okay? And this contribute, when talk about business levies, who pays the business levies, or the
business payments, it's a private sector, okay? Yes. So that's why the local authorities has to provide,
the local authority has to provide an enabling environment for local businesses to thrive. Okay? So
they are involved because they they they're part of the tax local taxpayers. They are the ones who
own property. So property rates comes from the private sector, because government doesn't really
pay for for properties that are really in these yeah, there's an aspect, somebody will tell you about
the grants in lieu of rates, but it's nothing really. So it's a private sector that really paid. So a taxpayer
is actually primarily the private sector itself, so they are involved, and that's why there's need for
local authorities now to be transparent, okay, to show cause as to why somebody should pay. It's
very, very important, because even you, Mora, if you really know, like, look here, I need to pay. I
mean, I, I'm receiving this service, you know, and I'm, I'm happy with this service, even you can gladly
pay. But if you really the service that you expect is questionable, I don't think you'd be that. You
know that unwise to just throw money in a black hole you want to see the benefit out of it. Yeah.
Yeah. You mentioned

Speaker 2 19:57

transparency. Yeah. Say that's a barrier that's there for increased collaboration between local
authorities and,

Speaker 1 20:07

yeah, private sector, yeah, yeah, of course, because that's a that's the thing. But we, again, you've
asked me about what interventions are being put in place. I can say for the fact that, for instance, as
one of the areas of showing transparency the through the ministry of local government, local
authorities now have got websites as regards their functionalities, another matter, but at least their
websites, and they've prescribed in terms of key documents that are supposed to be uploaded on
that website. Because what people don't know is that the website really performs that role as a
transparency mechanism. Okay? It means you're opening yourself to the public, even Council
minutes, for instance, they are supposed to be applauded on that website. People are supposed to
see what is my council deliberating on? How are decisions arrived at? What about the budget for this
local authority? How are they doing in terms of budget tracking or budget performance. So yes,
transparency is actually key. And in any case, for local government, believe it or not, what we stand
for as an and as an association is the issue of increasing downward accountability. Okay, where Yes,
from the people down there, they are supposed to hold institutions such as local government
accountable. But it involves question, conscientizing the citizenry, making the citizens aware,
engaging them, explaining to them, educate them in terms of their roles and responsibility, so that
they are able to hold you accountable. That's the way it works. Yeah, yeah, really. Okay, so what
would you say are the drivers of debt and yeah, debt and arrears? Yes. First and foremost, you must
understand that these are more or less like rigorous issues, local government dates as a lot of
background. Okay, that's one thing from the time that we we removed a lot of government removed
a lot of revenue streams from local authorities. That was the starting point, of course, the poor
funding to local authorities. Okay, yeah. So you find that the biggest chunk of that date that local
authorities are sitting on, which is in, I'm sure you're aware, that it should be in the range of maybe
3.5 or even before billion quarters we speak right now, but you can get the exact figures. Is largely
personnel, emoluments, you get the point. So staff related, dates, suppliers, very, I should say, very
small proportion of that. So this speaks to the way human resource is actually handled in local
authorities. Yeah, the the transfers of people also that, you know, of staff that creates a thing. Yeah, it
has it creates a debt situation. As you may be aware, traveling is a cost. I mean, moving from one
station to another is a cost. So really, the issue of being able to just manage net salaries as opposed
to a gross pay so you are not paying napsa. And you know, napsa debt is actually it's actually highly
toxic in the sense that the penalties and the interest, yes, yes, yes, yes, very, very, very, very high. So
really, this is the issue coming from the underfunding of local authorities. So the dates keeps on
building up. So right now, I can say it's a legacy issue. It's Yeah, but what we see, sadly is that even
the new councils, the relatively new councils, because there's nothing now very new, because I think
the last councils must have been created. Is it 2011 or so? There about Yeah? So we can't talk of
more than 10 years now, and I'd say new, new, new at whatever, yeah, but largely is personnel,
emoluments. So those are really huge, huge, huge drivers, yeah, yeah, yeah. What? Monitoring

Unknown Speaker 23:55

mechanisms

Speaker 1 24:00

have been put in place? Yeah, debt and arrears. Well, the there's, there is an endeavor from the
ministry, of course, these local authorities, from time to time, asked to really submit the debt
liquidation plans. And of course, there's a new thing, which the Ministry of Finance, through the
Zambia devotion support program, has come up with the debt monitoring mechanism. Yeah, but in
terms of this usability, not very, very sure, but I think you can see the intention. And for us, we
applaud that we load the intention that is there, because we hope they can be proper monitoring
otherwise. Right now, believe it or not, you really have to go to each and every of the 116 local
authorities for you to establish the exact date. And mind you, the technical aspect this is that in
terms of accounting, in local authorities, they're using cash accounting now cash account. The
downside of it is that there's sometimes a tendency to ignore what you owe people, you know, yeah,
in terms of your crews. That kind of thing. Yeah, so that's where the issue is. So really a there is need
to actually ensure that, first and foremost, there is automation, okay, of all, system, accounting
system, standardization of accounting systems in local authorities, embedded in that there must be a
debt monitoring mechanism so that people are supposed to really report the date, and we monitor
how debt is actually accumulate, accumulated, and that kind of thing. Yeah. So standardizing the
accounting system will help, some extent, really, in terms of ensuring that we have very credible
databases in terms of where we are sitting in as far as local government debt is concerned, yeah,
yeah. So that's that's really our view, unless otherwise, yeah, are there

Unknown Speaker 25:45

any mechanisms local authority uses

Speaker 1 25:51

to dismantle its death? Yeah, they are there. Like I said, there is this endeavor of they try, by all
means, right now, to ensure that, first and foremost, there's no accumulation of further debt, so that
if there's a date, if you're talking about a 4 billion or 4.5 billion, maybe it can be static, or it should be
reducing by the dismantling or by the payments that are made, but shouldn't really be growing.
Yeah, but it's the growth rate that was worrisome to us. The way this rate is growing, this debt is
growing is really worrisome. So the dismantling and for but again, it goes back to the limited
resources. Well, yeah, if because, if you don't have money, really, how do you pay off your debts?
Honestly, your income does not really increase. And mind you, in case you did not know, is that right
now the there's increased responsibilities and staffing levels in local authorities. Yeah, they, they are
there. There's a new establishment, you know, that has been approved, already effective, first
January. Okay, what does it entail more stuff. You've got councils now that have got over 100, 100
employees on their payroll, small ones. Yes, small ones. And now, what does it entail salaries? And
obviously, with that in mind, you have now a situation whereby you are failing to actually pay the
gross salaries. So that's another issue. So really staff, like I said, everything is monitoring stuff related
without any corresponding revenue. Meanwhile, the local government acquisition fund has been
relatively static. It was only last year when it was increased by 100 million. The override if you
noticed 2021 22 and 2023 static at 1.3 billion. So it has only been increased for 2024 but now the
increase there has been outweighed or outstripped by, you know, the increase staffing levels. For
instance, yes. And functions, you know, you, you hear of devolved functions, these eight functions
that have gone to local authorities. Yes, somebody saying, No, there's a budget line and whatever.
But people don't really have a broader understanding of the cost implication of that, because there
are some of the costs even here in my office, if I'm told that no, okay, this, this person is coming with
his or her salary will be 10,000 quarter, and that's it from there. But the other things that may not be
released in there, you see the other services that are really a cost, even to keep this office clean and
whatever. Now, instead of cleaning for one person, this office will be littered by two people. It's an
extra cost, which may not really be in the initial kind of cost consideration. So there are all these
things. So one thing that I should put on record is that there has been no research so far that we've
come across ourselves that speaks about the cost of municipal services. What does it cost for lusaga
City Council, for instance, to provide its municipal services to its fullest extent, that is not there. And
we are saying that's another area that researchers, even like yourselves, can actually explore. To say,
for Solar City Council, if it's to operate really effectively, what does it require? You know the
functions. What are the cost areas? So how much, for instance, eh, solid waste management, what's
the cost of that? Okay, all this kind of thing. So we should be able to be now talking revenue, which is
very easy to measure, because, in any case, it's just one stream or two streams. Because basically it's
two streams, local government acquisition fund and own source revenue. Yes, exactly. But these are
the all these cost areas, you know, yeah, you've got almost 11 or so really primary functions, which
you can break down into 60 or 70 functions. So it it becomes a challenge. So the costs always
outweigh the revenue that is available for the local authority. So therefore. It. They are always in
deficit. Even usala City Council, for now, I can say, for a fact, still does not have money to really fulfill
its mandate. Yeah, so these are the things that you should have at the back of your mind, because it's
an area that we have been really worrying about ourselves, that, look, yeah, can we really determine
the cost of providing municipal services, then we should be talking about cost versus revenue. It
makes a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, the central government make any deductions from the grants. Yeah,
and China to dismantling debts, not to, not to, not what I know in terms of debt? No, no, there's, of
course, they are very meager issues like contribution to the union and sometimes also maybe to the
Local Authority Fund. Last if, yeah, that one I've seen in the last in the recent past, I think they've
been those actions where they've reduced something, they've jacked something at source. Yeah,
okay, yeah. I've not seen any deductions to do with naps, to do with because that will really be killing
the local authorities. They won't be, they won't have anything for their operations. Yeah, and mind
you, they're not in existence to just get salaries. They're in existence to provide services. And like I've
told you already, those services cost money, and you need to really be very clear in terms of the
budget lines. Okay, this refuse collection, vegetation control, development planning, what is
required, all those things. So really the only thing that I've seen at source deducted at source are
issues to do with the unions. There is Zambia, local authorities, Allied Workers Union, Zulu and then
fire sus, yeah. And then also recently, the Local Authority Fund lastive deduction that source, yeah,
but yeah, how effective is

Speaker 1 0:00

11 or so, really primary functions, which you can break down into 60 or 70 functions. So it it becomes
a challenge. So the costs always outweigh the revenue that is available for the local authority. So
therefore they are always in deficit, even City Council for now, I can say, for a fact, still does not have
money to really fulfill its mandate? Yeah. So these are the things that you should have at the back of
your mind, because it's an area that we have been really worrying about ourselves, that look, yeah,
can we really determine the cost of providing municipal services? Then we should be talking about
cost versus revenue. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah?

Speaker 2 0:41

Yeah, the central government make any deductions from the grants, yeah, and channel to dismantle
Speaker 1 0:51

debts, not to, not to, not what I know in terms of debt? No, no, it is. Of course, they are very meager
issues like contribution to the union and sometimes also maybe to the local authority financial fund.
Last if, yeah, that one I've seen in the last in the recent past, I think they've been those actions where
they've reduced something, they've jacked something at source. Yeah, okay, yeah. I have not seen
any deductions to do with napsa, to do with because that will really be killing the local authorities.
They won't be they won't have anything for their operations. Yeah, and mind you, they are not in
existence to just get salaries. They are in existence to provide services. And like I've told you already,
those services cost money, and you need to really be very clear in terms of the budget lines. Okay,
this refuse collection, vegetation control, development planning, what is required, all those things.
So really the only thing that I've seen at source, deducted at source are issues to draw with the
unions. There is Zambia, local authorities, Allied Workers Union, Zulu, and then fire Suze, yeah, and
then also recently, the local authority pollination fund last year. But yeah, how effective is the debt
management strategy?

Speaker 1 2:21

Well, yes, it's very difficult. Like I said, what really pollutes everything, or really dilutes everything is
actually the fact that you don't have the money. So when funds are not there, you can have a
strategy. But like I always tell people, strategy without funds or financing. Of those strategies is we
shift thinking. Yeah, so that's why the problem is. And again, when you look at the debt management
strategy for local authorities, which government formulated, I think he said, Is it 2021, 2025,
strategy? Looked at it. You've looked at it. I think I used to have a copy, just that maybe I could have
left it somewhere. I've read that thing from back to back. So the the challenge, again, that we have is
debt management strategy. Yes, there's there for local authorities. It's there the 2021, 2025, strategy.
Um, in there, there's a position also the the one of the strategies is a matching grant from from
central government, okay, for instance, there's a date say, look, want to dismantle this debt. We're
giving you 60% provide the 40% okay, the local authorities. But even that 40% local authorities don't
have. So even if central government has so the matching grant concept cannot work in this kind of
environment. It's different from you, if you have that level, you have your you have money, which
you're saying, Oh, this is for debtors. And somebody says, look for debt repayment. Somebody says,
Okay, I'll provide a matching grant. I'll give you 60% of what you owe provide for it may be easy for
you, because you have maybe, maybe about 50 to 60% of what you owe to repay, yeah, but for local
authorities, it's, it does not really work, therefore it can't. It was not really implemented. So it's
implementation, again, of the provisions of the debt management strategy at local level because of
the lack of funds. Yeah, they are trying, but the debt is just too huge for them to bear. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 4:28

Do you have staff trained in

Speaker 1 4:32

debt management? Well, I'm not. I've not come we've not come across any specific to do with debts,
but that's a very good point. So we're not really aware of anything we specifically on date, because I
think these are, these are more or less like it's generalized most of the time. Yeah, it's among the
many other things, therefore date finds itself there. But yeah, not really anything specific you.

Unknown Speaker 5:00

Answer, what strategies can you propose that we

Speaker 1 5:02

can put data management? Yeah, debt. And first you start with the way the data, the database is we
have to deal with that, because that will help us in terms of really ensuring that we know the current
stock and what kind of the debt structure, it possesses what, what is due to tele bodies, for instance,
what is due to staff or retirees, you know? And having those finer, finer details whereby even
disbursement becomes really very easy, and again, now a very concrete plan to say 2024, so much is
allocated, yeah, to dismantling dates by the local authority from the mega resources. But one thing I
should admit is that even before we go any further in this discussion, is that there is need for central
government to take off that gate off the shoulders of local authorities as it is right now. It's shocking
local authorities, and I don't think there's any local authority that has got their bid to actually clear
office state right now, in the current state. So that's one thing that you have to really know. So data
manage, data based management, so that, and again, having feasible and workable, really,
liquidation plans not just something where you are forced to, you know, it becomes like an academic
exercise, but it must be best based on the revenues that you expect, really. So if there's revenue
enhancement, there's obvious every likelihood that there will be money left for debt servicing, but as
it is right now, because when you look at the even our national budget, for instance, I mean, we
listen to the Minister of Finance very, very attentively, we see that there isn't so much emphasis on
the local authority dates. Yeah, that's the issue. So that line, we don't see it. So it becomes a
problem, and to think that local authorities are going to take that data away from themselves. It
might not really be the huge I mean, it might not really be something that you attend, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 7:12

What is your perspective on the fiscal decentralization process in Zambia with regards to on source
revenue mobilization? Okay,

Speaker 1 7:22

very good, yeah. So that's very key, because we do appreciate, again, it comes to us really saying we
need to really actualize these things. As you may be aware, in 2017 government came up with the
intergovernmental fiscal architecture, which had the excellent, you know the four pillars, yeah, the
revenue responsibility or revenue assignment, expenditure responsibilities, and then you have got
the intergovernmental fiscal transfers. And, of course, the local government dates and borrowing,
okay, four pillars. And now that expired. Of course, there's a new one, which I'm told, well, it should
be advanced the intergovernmental fiscal architecture, because we are part and part of that process,
yeah, in formulating that which have added a fifth, a fifth pillar there, which is good public financial
management, how do you strengthen public financial management system, which is very, very key at
local level? Okay, so the framework is very good. Yeah, we okay with the fiscal sensitization
framework. And that is very, very key, because you can, you can succeed in your political,
administrative centralization, you know, all these other areas. But really, if you don't succeed in the
fiscal sensitization, then you cannot really go anywhere. And now we see the renewed vigor by the
new government right now to really give that impetus, you know, to the fiscal side of the of
decentralization, which is very, very exciting. So it's just implementation. Our hope is that we can
have the intergovernmental fiscal architecture in place, okay, the new one, and then implement
religiously all the pillars. What is tabulated on the five pillars implemented build capacity in local
authorities to strengthen the public financial management framework. That is very, very key, so that
we don't lose out. We seal all those revenue leakages, and that, because more revenue, it means you
should be able to service your debts. In any case, you might not even accumulated, because
expenses will be actually paid for us, and when they afford you, you feel that, or they arise. So that is
very good. And then you need to refine list. Let's refine list, because it's a mismatch between
revenue responsibilities and and, and and the expenditure. There's a mismatch, yeah, so if we can try
and bring some level of equilibrium in terms of their functions and the revenues available, mind you,
there's a principle of saying, finance follows the function. So you you give a function to a local
authority, there must be cost. Funding and communist revenue to, you know, to actualize that.
That's, that's the issue. And there's a principle of subsidiarity in as far as functions are concerned,
that, look, the local authority is better placed to perform certain functions that have been identified,
okay, as a smoothie functions, yeah. So let's, let's make that alive, as opposed to each sitting, you
know, in paper. And it's like no, no life has been breathed into those letters and words and whatever.
So that is for us that is very key. So if you implement the intergovernmental physical architecture,
because the new decentralization policy, the 2023, policy, has actually recognized as, actually, I don't
know, really, but maybe to how to put it. But what I see that is that harmony. Now they speak to each
other. Yeah, with a IFA report that we saw and what we foresee finding its way in the
intergovernmental fiscal architecture, we see that is harmony. So it's just a matter of actualizing that,
and government has to increase, of course, the funding to local authorities. Because, again, there's
this, there's this notion of saying that no some local authorities can stand on their own without any
government support. That is not correct. There is no local from the association's point of view. There
is no local authority in Zambia which can stand on its own without government, with those central
government subversions, there's nothing. No, no. Let no one lie to you. Why they say people say that
they have not interrogated the course you interrogate the cost structure, and then you should be
able to be talking from an informed perspective. And this is why, perspective. And this is why we call
upon researchers, even research institutions like yourself or whatever, that can we invest in this so
that we really come up with the actual cost. So we we have got those challenges more, yeah, yeah.
So we expect that once the intergovernmental fiscal architecture is really launched or approved by
government, is going to be implemented to the light, yeah.

Speaker 2 12:09

So as of now, have there any, have there been any workshops, seminars, trainings and physical

Speaker 1 12:17

decentralization? Well, not really, not really, because I cannot speak those that we have witnessed.
But you may be aware there's a lot of working in silos. That's another really downside of this. And
yeah, so you may be saying this has not happened, not knowing that just behind your house is a
workshop taking place, and you are not aware of Yeah, but the Yeah, not really to I don't think
whatever has been done is to our satisfaction. Because we look at who are the key players. The local
authorities themselves have to be involved. They are the people that are supposed to be trained,
yeah? And when we talk of local authorities, I mean, come to what I said in the beginning, you are
talking of who appointed officers under the local government service commission, okay? And then
the elected officials. Because these two, when they come together, they make a local authority, and
therefore they must be trained together. Yes, yes, the politicians and the the technocrats. Okay? So
we have not seen that. We want to see a very holistic training approach to this year, we've got
institutions, charlimalabu, government Training Institute, can be engaged. Other players can come
on, on board, to augment what shalibana is doing. But it's very, very key that the training really
targets the proper, proper stakeholders. Yeah, great. What are the major challenges

Speaker 2 13:41

that have been experienced in receiving finances or grants for central government?

Speaker 1 13:48

Yeah, it's, of course it is. It stems from the fact that the the national basket is limited. I think that's
starting point. Yeah. But as you may be aware, what is supposed to happen is that there are, there
are two areas that need to equalize, and that's why, even when you talk of the local government
equalization fund, that's one thing that is supposed to really address, because there is, there is a
vertical kind of inequality, okay, in terms of how revenue have been assigned, what local what central
government is holding on to, and what local government is actually been given? Okay, there's a,
there's a, there's a, there's a, there is some level of inequality there, okay? And now, even when you
talk about local government acquisition fund, there has to be that horizontal equalization. Sikongo
and chadiza, two totally different environments and totally different needs. There must be a measure
of equality there, or a measure of equity, rather fairness, okay, so, but not this thing whereby even
the moneys are located without any kind of scientific formula, because we need to take into account
a lot of variables, things like population, the land. Months the poverty levels, you can bring all these
other things, you know. So that is not really done. So like I said, the local authorities are grossly
underfunded from central government. So there's consistence right now. They are no longer delays.
We used to experience delays in the past regarding the local government acquisition fund. But now
they could be here and there minor glitches, but over it, I think the flow of funds from central
government local government is quite okay, but it's a quantum now, say amounts that we are talking
about, which are still very significant. Yeah, and it stems from the National cake. The National cake is
small. Obviously, it entails that every subsequent piece that follows will be small. Yeah, it can't be
bigger than the overall Kenya local authorities

Unknown Speaker 15:49

mandated to submit audited financial

Speaker 1 15:54
results. Yes, yes, yes, yes. They are mandated Janji, right now. The the requirement is that? And mind
you, they are audited by water general, yeah. So by 31st that first march, they are supposed to
submit their financial statements for auditing, yeah. So that before, I think, is it before September. So
there about auditor general, have audited that. And what we are saying now is that once the opinion
has been formulated by Auditor General, want to see those on the once the auditor general's report
has been published, want to see them on their website, sitting on their websites, what did financial
statements for local authorities? Yeah, yes, they are mandated. It's legal. They are public institutions.
So public sector, I mean public, public audit act is supposed to really be at play in that regard,
financial reports used for future planning expenditure. Yeah, they are with all those challenges. They
are they are used, of course, as you may be aware, those speak to a lot of a lot of people, even their
primary stakeholders, employees, very key to see how resources are actually mobilized and applied.
So that tells because it shows your performance, and there is, there's a page in the financial
statements local authorities, which is a the budget performance, so that we makes it takes into
account comparisons like actual versus budget so and again, I think the guidance there has been to
local authorities that it goes further, you have to provide the the details in terms of what is the cause
of those variances. For instance, why did you under collect? Okay, why did you over collect so those
are very, very important, and those are decision points. Yeah, you can actually take on someone
based on the variances that we so the variance analysis report that is produced, so that is, that is
very, very correct, yes. Are

Speaker 2 17:54

there any existing challenges in data collection management or

Speaker 1 18:00

utilization? Yeah, there is, of course, data is, it is a huge one. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about
it right now, because, honestly, everything, my friend, I mean, my dear, is that is, he is manual, yeah,
so automation is, yeah, digitalization, digitization, whatever it is, is very key databases moving away
from, you know, Excel based kind of, you know, information. Of course, we know the downside of
Excel, apart from it being a very useful and very versatile or robust kind of thing to use. So those are
the challenges, really, data, data bases and the I'm glad right now that there's an endeavor through
the through smart Zambia, yeah, that the they've actually moved in terms of putting all local
authorities now and on the local area network. They are also on the one the government wide
network, yeah, so that is very good. That is going to really help a lot, because even yourself, you
want, in the comfort of your home, be able to pay for, you know, for services, or apply for services
from the local authority. So there is a move right now, and we hope that is going to be sustained.
Yeah, standardization of accounting systems is one of them, and creation of websites is one of them,
and also they're prescribed in terms of the key documents to be uploaded on the website. So this
just database management. Database Management is actually very key, and I'm glad they did
speaking to the director of ICT at the Ministry of local government, it gives you a lot of hope that we
could be moving really in the right direction. Yeah. And as far as data management is concerned,
because that's very key. We want evidence based decision making, and that is premised on that.
Yeah, good. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Oh, thank you. I was expecting more than this.
Okay, thanks a lot. Thanks a lot for the for your time. And we hope we've done but.