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LTFP-how-to-be-a-student-pilot.mp3

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Episode 311 of the pilot the pilot podcast takes off now.

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00:00:27 Speaker 1
Pilot the pilot to Pilot podcast is brought to you by learn the finer points. Use the link below
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00:00:34 Speaker 1
All pilots like to have the big weather picture when they're flying and that's why I use
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00:00:49 Speaker 1
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00:01:20 Speaker 2
My name is Jason Miller. I am the founder of the finer points online at
learnthefinerpoints.com. I've been a CFI most of my adult life. I've been teaching, flying full
time for the last 20 years. I am a career flight instructor, which is a bit rare to find and I'm
really passionate about discovering new ways to help pilots become excellent and new ways
to improve the levels of safety in aviation.
00:01:47 Speaker 1
Navy Nation, what is going on and welcome back to the pilot, the pilot podcast. My name is
Justin seems and I am your host. Today's episode is how to become a student pilot. Now.
When we say this, we're gonna go anywhere from the beginning of being a student pilot to
right up until you're gonna start taking your flight lessons or intro flight. This is really for
anyone that wants to get into aviation. So send this to them.
00:02:07 Speaker 1
Because it is much easier than you think. And when I say easier, I don't mean cheaper.
Obviously it's very expensive. That's hard. How do you come up?
00:02:13 Speaker 1
Money. That's another topic for another day. Maybe we can figure out another another
podcast episode for that. But we were just talking about actually starting your flight training
141 or 61. What kind of medical should you get? What should you?
00:02:26 Speaker 1
What?
00:02:27 Speaker 1
What kind of resources should you be looking at and how to save some money?
00:02:30 Speaker 1
So.
00:02:31 Speaker 1
Today's episode is with Jason Miller. He is from learn the finer points and he has the ground
school.
00:02:35 Speaker 1
Full disclosure, before we start this episode, there's a link in the bottom of the description.
You can use my code and you can save some money on one of the best apps that you can
have, and I truly wish I had this when I was on my training. So we do talk about the ground
school up a lot. You can use any resource you want, but highly, highly, highly recommend the
ground school app and navigation. I won't take up any more of your time, so any.
00:02:53 Speaker 1
Further ado, here's how to become a student pilot with Jason Miller. Jason, what's going on?
Welcome back to the pilot, the pilot podcast. It's been a while, man. We haven't talked in a
minute.
00:03:03 Speaker 2
I know Justin, thanks for inviting me on. It's really good to see you again. Yeah, and always
great to talk.
00:03:08 Speaker 1
To you, always great to talk, man. Well, we are not doing a standard pilot to pilot podcast as I
have done one with you way in the past. It's probably been like four years now. So maybe we
need an update because obviously doing some great things with ground school app and you're
just killing it on your own in general as a CFI.
00:03:24 Speaker 1
We were talking before about being pretty much a tech worker now like you are Steve Jobs of
ground school essentially. So you got a lot going on, man. I don't know if that's a compliment
or not. Some people like them, some people don't. But I meant that in a very good way.
00:03:40 Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. No, I I, I took it as a compliment and and and you're right. You know, I I've been
teaching flying in the San Francisco Bay area since 2002.
00:03:49 Speaker 2
And just about everybody that's gotten into my airplane with the, with a few exceptions, you
know, during that time is either a founder in the tech industry, an investor in the tech industry
as C level executive in the tech industry. It's you know, it's what's done out there. So it's very
logical outgrowth of that to take the the stuff that I knew.
00:04:09 Speaker 2
And put it into a tech.
00:04:10 Speaker 2
Product you.
00:04:11 Speaker 1
I hope you've been trading in stock options for these slight lessons and not taking any money.
00:04:14 Speaker 1
Man, you could have like yeah. Ohh.
00:04:15 Speaker 2
I should have man.
00:04:17 Speaker 1
Mistakes have been made. If only Jason can go back in time when he was flying around
Google executives be like.
00:04:22 Speaker 1
I don't want your money. I want stock options, that's all.
00:04:26 Speaker 1
I need, yeah.
00:04:26 Speaker 2
It's so funny. I mean, I don't wanna go off on a tangent, but that's one of the really that's one
of the most the coolest things about teaching for as long as I have is over the years people that
get into your airplane and one time a guy got in and turned out, he was the producer for
Desperate Housewives.
00:04:38 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:04:42 Speaker 2
Remember that show. I don't know if you ever thought that show. I I never actually watched
the show, but I was like, well, here's a famous producer.
00:04:46 Speaker 1
That was big TV.
00:04:48 Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, love it.
00:04:48
That's.
00:04:49 Speaker 2
Crazy, you know? So stuff like that happens a lot, absolutely.
00:04:51 Speaker 1
Absolutely. Well, hey, we are here to do a series. We're talking about this off air a little bit,
but we're.
00:04:57 Speaker 1
I'll bring a series together, get a nice fantasy. Nice fancy landing page for it, put it online, and
it's essentially gonna walk everyone through about how to become a pilot, how to be
successful pilot, how to be a good pilot and take it in stages from student pilot, private pilot,
instrument pilot and commercial pilot, and maybe eventually we'll do some other stuff as
well, cuz there's obviously.
00:05:16 Speaker 1
Other ratings that you need if you wanna go make some money and and do some stuff, you
can't just get your commercial and be done.
00:05:22 Speaker 1
As I once.
00:05:23 Speaker 1
Thought. But we'll start with student pilot. There's a lot going on when you are a new student
pilot, you know a lot of these first decisions you make are pretty important, whether it's the
flight school, you go to, the CFI you go to.
00:05:37 Speaker 1
The type of airplanes you wanna fly, the resources you want to kind of mold you into the pilot
that you wanna be. And I say it's important because the law primacy, right, the first thing you
learn or the 1st instructor of how they teach you how to do stuff. That stuff sticks with you
whether you like it or not. When you're in an emergency, you're gonna remember the first
thing that you were taught and.
00:05:56 Speaker 1
It's very important that you make the right decision and what makes it more difficult is you
have no idea how to make the right decision. So we are gonna help help you. Hopefully
Jason's been doing this for a while, so we'll kind of give some tips and tricks.
00:06:10 Speaker 1
To how to navigate becoming a student pilot and what you need to do to set yourself up to be
a very good private pilot. So Jason.
00:06:16 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:06:17 Speaker 1
Yeah, if you have any of the first thing was to say is what would you recommend for
someone? You know, we probably all get these DM's right. I want to be a pilot. What do I do?
00:06:24 Speaker 1
Now, what's kind of your go to recommendation for that?
00:06:29 Speaker 2
Well, you know it it it's it's challenging for students like you mentioned for so many different
reasons. I mean not the least of which is it's challenging to even find a flight school. Yeah.
You know, if you're sitting in your house and you're thinking, OK, I want to be a pilot. It's
like where is the closest airport to me? You drive down there.
00:06:44 Speaker 2
There's a bunch of fences and warning signs, and you're, like, looking around it. It feels like a
a bit like a gated community. You know what I mean? It's it it. It's not the for.
00:06:54 Speaker 2
A.
00:06:54 Speaker 2
Lot of really smart reasons. It's not the the most open environment. You know, when you go
to an airport.
00:07:01 Speaker 2
So it's definitely challenging for students, and I think folks these days.
00:07:05 Speaker 2
This come in two different categories, and I think whoever's listening to this has to ask
themselves this question really is the goal to become a professional pilot and some folks that
are on that path are on a really fast track for practical reasons. You know, I can think of so
many people that have reached out to me over the years, but one girl.
00:07:25 Speaker 2
Pops into my mind where she's working in business in Chicago and she only had enough
money.
00:07:29 Speaker 2
Saved for like a year and a half and she wanted to make like a career change from one career
to flying right. So that's a that's a certain set of people, right that know they want to be
professional pilots have a fixed amount of money and want to do it as fast as possible. And
there's other folks that maybe aren't sure, but they're not under that time pressure. Right. They
get into the.
00:07:50 Speaker 2
Three, they want to get their their student pilot certificate. They're gonna get their private pilot
certificate and kind of see where the world takes them. You know, maybe they're a bit
younger and on a longer path. That was neat, by the way. I didn't exact. I thought I wanted to
be an airline pilot. When I got into it, but I I I realized pretty early on that that was not the
direction I was going to go. And it wasn't kind of slowed down a little bit.
00:08:11 Speaker 2
So.
00:08:13 Speaker 2
The reason I say that is.
00:08:15 Speaker 2
There are fast track paths.
00:08:17 Speaker 2
People can go to accelerated programs. There are some big programs around the United States
where folks can go in and they say, OK, you're gonna spend $80,000. And from this day to
this day and you're we're gonna send.
00:08:28 Speaker 2
You out a CFI.
00:08:30 Speaker 2
So, you know, we'll talk about that path and then the other path is you have to go to the
airport, find a flight school near you, hopefully find an experienced CFI that's living in a
hangar somewhere out there at your small airport and, you know, get a mentor and just start
going through the process of training.
00:08:51 Speaker 2
Yeah. So those are, you know, it's it's important to sort of realize that distinction, I think and
it's also important no matter which path you're on, I think to try and experiment with different
things.
00:09:04 Speaker 2
A lot of people think the first instructor they meet is the instructor. They have to go with the
first school they walk into is the first school they have to go with.
00:09:11 Speaker 2
If the first program they see is what they have to sign up for, but it's worth your while and
worth your money to invest in a little intelligence on it, you know, go fly with one instructor.
Say thank you very much. That was awesome. I'll call you in a couple of weeks. Go fly with
another instructor, maybe in a different airplane.
00:09:31 Speaker 2
And you could say well, hey, that's $400.00 that I wasn't gonna spend if I didn't do that. But at
the same time, you're trying to figure out a good fit for your ultimate success and that $400.00
or whatever you spent on that second flight is going to be totally worth it.
00:09:46 Speaker 2
And.
00:09:48 Speaker 2
Inside of all that, you have to figure out how is it like you said, that you're gonna set yourself
up for success, that you're going to be a good student. I mean a a good pilot. You're going to
find a good instructor. You don't know any better, right? You're brand new. You could meet
the worst instructor in the world, and you're probably gonna think that person's great. You can
meet the best instructor in.
00:10:05 Speaker 2
The world you'll be sitting there going, I don't know.
00:10:08 Speaker 2
The guy next door might be better. You know, you just have. You have absolutely no idea.
And so the idea that you're gonna try different things I think is something that you should.
00:10:17 Speaker 2
Keep with you throughout all of flight training, really, but especially at the beginning and
don't feel bad about it. I like I said, I've been teaching for decades and if my students said to
me, hey, I want to go fly with Lisa next week because I want to see how she does stalls, I
would say awesome.
00:10:32 Speaker 2
Go fly with Lisa and if my student came back, by the way and said, hey, Lisa does this thing
that you don't do that was really, really amazing. I would go ask Lisa, what's this amazing
thing you do right? Cause it'll it'll take my game up. So there's no like, there shouldn't be any
ego involved in.
00:10:46 Speaker 2
This.
00:10:47 Speaker 2
And if you're a student pilot and you feel like.
00:10:50 Speaker 2
You're going to offend your instructor or your instructor is giving you a hard time for going
and flying with somebody else. That would be a red flag for you, you know.
00:10:59 Speaker 1
I definitely agree.
00:10:59 Speaker 2
So it's it's important and the the problem with.
00:11:03 Speaker 2
A problem with the industry today is that everything is moving so fast. There are so many
people that are going into that fast track, right? The ATP programs or whatever, those
accelerated programs are that they're doing, and even if they're not doing that, they're they're
having a hard time finding instructors like me that have been teaching for 20 years because
everybody's get getting, like, sucked up into the.
00:11:23 Speaker 2
Airlines and so with the industry moving that fast, I think it's really important that folks seek
out quality sort of digital mentors if they can't find an actual physical mentor. And when I say
mentor, I don't know exactly what I mean by that. But but I know, I mean somebody that
didn't learn to fly two years ago.
00:11:43 Speaker 1
Right.
00:11:44 Speaker 2
Right. Which is kind of what we see a lot of my CFI got his CFI two years ago. He's teaching
me, and then I'll teach somebody else and I'll teach some.
00:11:46
Yeah.
00:11:50 Speaker 2
Deals, and it's all this very narrow junior experience that's getting handed down.
00:11:55 Speaker 2
So I was fortunate enough. For example in my 20s, to meet an old Air Force pilot, a guy in his
50s had been flying like me for decades, and that's the kind of.
00:12:05 Speaker 2
Like, that's what I mean when I.
00:12:06 Speaker 2
Say mentor yeah.
00:12:08 Speaker 2
If you can find people with that experience, I mean, if you can, the good news is there are so
many ways to access it these days. You know, we've got YouTube channels like Blanco,
Lirio, you know, Juan Brown breaking down different accidents and he's got tons of
experience. He's an airline pilot.
00:12:24 Speaker 2
It's the entire reason we talked about tech company, but it's why we made the ground school
app, you know our hope for for for the ground school product is that it's like me in your
pocket, no matter who you're flying with, right?
00:12:35 Speaker 2
Anywhere in the.
00:12:35 Speaker 2
World if you want to know what a 20 year veteran would say about it, just pull out the app.
We've got all the flying lessons, everything in there and.
00:12:44 Speaker 2
And on and on, there's so more. It's our product, there's YouTube channels. There's lots of
ways for folks to kind of.
00:12:51 Speaker 2
Look around the room, so to speak, and say like, am I learning the right things or my
instructors bringing me the right?
00:12:56 Speaker 2
Things.
00:12:58 Speaker 2
Because you said it right in the intro there, the law of primacy, I mean, the more I teach.
00:13:04 Speaker 2
The more responsibility I feel for those early hours.
00:13:09 Speaker 2
And nobody's perfect. And hindsight's 2020. But sometimes, you know, the things.
00:13:14 Speaker 2
That.
00:13:14 Speaker 2
Sort of. Keep me. Keep me up, so to speak. They don't actually keep me up. But the things
that bug me are.
00:13:20 Speaker 2
You know the lessons I gave early in my career when I was like, I wish I did that a little
differently. Yeah, I would do it differently today, you know. But you can kind of bracket to
perfection over time and eventually that.
00:13:32 Speaker 1
Absolutely. And I think one of the one of the most important things that you can do as a
student pilot is do an intro flight and that's as easy as going to google.com saying intro flight
and that should populate the best.
00:13:43 Speaker 1
Flight school that spent the most on marketing to put their SEO right at the top and when I say
I said it like that is cuz if you take an intro flight within that doesn't mean you need to use that
flight school for your introductory flight lessons or for your flight lessons in general. That's
just to see hey, do I actually like it? Do I get sick when I go fly? Do I enjoy taking off? Does a
small plane?
00:14:03 Speaker 1
Hear the crap out of me. If you are afraid and you're in the plane, maybe we shouldn't drop.
You know, $1000 on a headset or get the get the whatever the nicest iPad with Garmin pilot
and the ground school app and all that stuff. Maybe you should hold off on that. Take the.
00:14:19 Speaker 1
Show flight and see if you like it. Some people don't like it or like, alright, screw this. I'm
going out. I'm going to be a firefighter. I've seen that happen before, right. Exactly. Became a
firefighter. And then another important thing is to get your medical. I always recommend you
go for your first class. For the first one. Some people might not agree with that. But if this is a
career that you wanna do you wanna know.
00:14:22 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:14:28 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:14:41 Speaker 1
Pretty early on, if you have anything that's gonna inhibit you from doing this career because
like we said, it's expensive. You mentioned 80 grand.
00:14:47 Speaker 1
For one of the big schools, that's probably even a low number, to be honest with you, what
you actually are going to spend on that. So make sure you're spending probably more money
than you'd want to at the beginning to make sure you like it to make sure you find the right
flight school. As you mentioned, repeating flight lessons with different instructors. Maybe
that's an option. And when you go to mentor.
00:15:06 Speaker 1
Professional pilots of tomorrow. I don't know what they offer for new pilots or student pilots,
but it's a great mentorship. It's a great mentorship program and it's definitely worth reaching
out. They might be able to pair you with someone that just became an airline pilot, has
recently gone to a certain school or a pilot in that area. So those are all great options for you to
check out.
00:15:25 Speaker 2
Yeah, that's great advice. And I'm a big believer in investing in yourself early, you know.
00:15:33 Speaker 2
Some people aren't in that position like, you know, the girl that I mentioned from Chicago had
to go through the accelerated program. What I say to folks like that is if you have to go fast in
the beginning, just know that you're going to want.
00:15:44 Speaker 2
To come back and fill.
00:15:44 Speaker 2
Holes later, if you can invest in yourself in the beginning, notice it's going to pay dividends
for you later on. You know, so if.
00:15:53 Speaker 2
UM.
00:15:55 Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, just taking the time to get the the skills and to really like make sure that you're
cementing all those foundational, you know, skills that you mentioned that we want to be part
of our primacy and not rushing to the beginning of training. I mean, all of this is.
00:16:11 Speaker 1
Is really important and as someone who has kind of this experience as.
00:16:15 Speaker 1
An instructor that has come up and you did your training part 60.
00:16:19 Speaker 1
Right.
00:16:20 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:16:21 Speaker 1
Has seen kind of the industry grow with the part 141 part 61 schools fast track versus not fast
track. It's obviously very personal and it's obviously a very tailored to what you want out of it.
Do you wanna get it done in eight months, hold on to the fire hose and really just get your.
00:16:35 Speaker 1
Ratings. So that's all.
00:16:36 Speaker 1
You wanna do then? Maybe ATP. Those kind of schools are good for you, but.
00:16:40 Speaker 1
As for you and specifically can't say that word sometimes specifically, what do you
recommend for the average student? That's that's gotta be someone that's sitting there right
now. That could be watching this.
00:16:52 Speaker 1
It's like, man, it would be great to get it done, but from someone that's seen a lot of these
pilots come up in these pilot farms as some people call them and I don't mean that negatively,
it's just.
00:17:01 Speaker 1
Some people call it that. What do you recommend for someone that's kind of just in between
right now?
00:17:07 Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I mean, the thing about, let me just say this about the pilot farms, just in case
someone's hearing drink from the fire hose and accelerated training. If they're hearing that as a
more rigorous program, that's not exactly what it.
00:17:19 Speaker 2
Is.
00:17:22 Speaker 2
Folks, that that go down that path I think tend to become airline pilots and that's that's where
they're going. That's what they want to be. And in my experience, most of them don't ever fly
light airplanes again, right, that's it. They get into the cockpit of a heavy jet, they've got their
job, they got their pension, they go to their family. Most of them aren't out at the hangar.
00:17:42 Speaker 2
Building an RV on the right. Right. That's not the way it typically goes.
00:17:46 Speaker 2
Some of them are, you know, like I mentioned, Juan Brown, for example. He flies a 777. He
flies a Husky, he flies at 3:10 and he's the kind of guy when I see him at the airport where he's
like, oh, darn it, I have to go fly the 777. I'll be back in a few days, you know, like he just. It's
like a break in his life. Right. And so you kind of should understand that that it's not a path of
one is more.
00:18:08 Speaker 2
Vigorous and and rigorous and like and harder than the other. It's just kind of two different
roads and.
00:18:17 Speaker 2
The road of investing in yourself or being that sort of in between person, like when I say it
pays dividends later, I mean it provides for all opportunities like you could become an airline
pilot, but you could also fly for the Department of Agriculture. You could fly a float plane for,
you know, the guys over in Sausalito. You could fly for pack.
00:18:37 Speaker 2
Really am flight like there's a million things you could do that are sort.
00:18:40
Of.
00:18:41 Speaker 2
In between jobs, so to speak, and I think that realization for me was a bit surprising. Yeah.
Like when I got into aviation like everybody else, I wanted to be an.
00:18:51 Speaker 2
Airline pilot I.
00:18:52 Speaker 2
I was enrolled in Embry Riddle and I thought I'll get my private and this fall I'm going to
Embry Riddle and I'm going to fly an airliner.
00:18:59 Speaker 2
And one of my early jobs in aviation, probably one of the most important jobs I ever had in
aviation, was driving a fuel truck. As I work in an FBO is like the first thing I did was go get a
job driving a fuel truck.
00:19:11 Speaker 2
And doing that I got to give so many pilots rides to lunch or rides to the hotel or whatever,
and I'm talking to so many different pilots, you know, net jets pilots, you know, former airline
pilots, charter pilots, private pilots, you know, business owners, everybody and you start to
get a sense that, wow, I really thought.
00:19:31 Speaker 2
I really thought you're either an airline pilot or you're not a pro pilot. Yeah. Before I got into
this, right?
00:19:37 Speaker 2
But the reality is there's a million different jobs in between. There are tons and tons of flying
jobs that people might not know about. Absolutely. So if you know, so. So for those in
between people, if you're, you know, if you're not on that fast track and knowing exactly what
you're doing and have a fixed amount of time and a.
00:19:53 Speaker 2
Fixed amount of money.
00:19:56 Speaker 2
Invest in yourself early and keep your keep your keep your sort of antenna up there and and
stay open to all the jobs that are possible. Yeah, but if in the in the part 61 world I was very
fortunate, like I said, I met a mentor, former Air Force guy.
00:20:16 Speaker 2
And part of the challenge for the people that are not in those accelerated programs and that are
are working in the part 61 environment right now is finding high quality flight training and
knowing, feeling confident that that's exactly what they're getting. Yeah, it's a, it's a real
challenge. It's a real, you know, so one of the things that we've done at the finer points to try
to help elevate.
00:20:37 Speaker 2
The raise the bar there.
00:20:39 Speaker 2
Little bit is our CFI club, so we have a a free CFI club that does monthly meetings and in
those meetings we bring in like designated pilot examiners. Other people like boards of
directors from NAFI and we have conversations about how to NAFI, by the way, is the
National Association of Flight instructors.
00:20:59 Speaker 2
But we have conversations about how to raise the game, how to deal with problems with
students, what are the changes in the regulations.
00:21:07 Speaker 2
And more than what we talk about, what I notice is everybody that shows up there, you know
we have, like I said, 1600 instructors around the country, but everybody that shows up at
those meetings is there to become a better flight instructor.
00:21:20 Speaker 2
And so we're working on ways to get those folks depicted on a map so that anybody that's
interested could know where these instructors are. All of those instructors are using our app
freely. They have free access to it so that they can learn the kind of tips and tricks that I'm
teaching or how I work through problems with students. And they can work with their
students in that same.
00:21:40 Speaker 2
OK.
00:21:42 Speaker 2
So you know, we're trying to create a network of instructors that that want that are, you know,
striving to be excellent. Yes, and and then make that obvious and visible to.
00:21:51 Speaker 1
Absolutely. I think it's important because like you said, 61, even 1:41, there's a lot of
instructors that are 14150 hours and you get on one of them at 1450, they're gonna be out at
1500 and you can't fault them for that. That's how the system is set up. You get 1500 hours,
1200 whatever it is that the means that you.
00:22:01
Yeah.
00:22:08 Speaker 1
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pilotthatsra.com/pilot to pilot and now back to today's episode. It's just how it's set up and
unfortunately, some instructors kind of hand handle that hand off a little bit differently. Some
are just out immediately. Some finish up the students.
00:22:57 Speaker 1
Some pass them off to an instructor that they trust, so you don't know what scenario or what
situation you're gonna fall in, and that's really hard to predict too. It just kind of how it all
plays out. If if an airline's like hey, we got class tomorrow, you got, you're gonna come,
they're gonna be like alright, I'm out.
00:23:14 Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean, yeah, it's an interesting ethical question. I think for CFI's right. And I had like
early in my career, all my colleagues, they, they're all airline pilots today. So you know
everybody that I went through flight training with was on that path. And and one of them said
to me one day he goes, we're like having a beer after work or something. He said, you know,
man.
00:23:18 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:23:33 Speaker 2
He's like I.
00:23:33 Speaker 2
Just I'm having a hard time. I just I I can't see my students as anything more than money right
now. Like just basically just like looking at the hours in the day, like how much money?
00:23:43 Speaker 2
Am I making or whatever?
00:23:45 Speaker 2
We got into a long conversation and you know, after talking to this guy for a long time, I
think I helped him realize that just because he needed the money and just because he needed
the hours.
00:23:54 Speaker 2
Wasn't mutually exclusive to the idea that he could be an excellent flight instructor.
00:23:58
Correct.
00:23:59 Speaker 2
And that there's an ethical way to do that, I think if.
00:24:01 Speaker 2
You're.
00:24:01 Speaker 2
A doctor and you're guiding somebody through cancer treatment just because they're gonna
give you a fellowship over at Harvard, and they need you to come to the meeting right now.
You're not gonna be, like, you know what? I know we had surgery scheduled in 20 minutes,
but this guy's Fred. He's really good.
00:24:14 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:24:17 Speaker 2
There's an ethical obligation to see that through, and it doesn't mean you can't get the job or
take the job. There's so many jobs right now. You know, if it's not that class, it'll be a class in
a month.
00:24:26 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:24:30 Speaker 2
And it doesn't necessarily mean you have to finish all your students, but do them better than
you know ghosts in them. Yeah. I mean, this is their primacy. Like you said, this is their life.
00:24:34 Speaker 1
Just leaving. Yeah, for sure. I don't think ghosting is very yeah.
00:24:40 Speaker 1
And I don't wanna scare anyone. I don't think that happens all the time. That's gonna be like a
one off situation. You'll hear about a worst case scenario, but I don't really think a lot of
instructors are out there ghosting you. But it is the possibility that it can happen.
00:24:54 Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, it's shocking. Some of the stuff I I hear, Justin, to be honest and.
00:24:59 Speaker 2
You know it's it's. It's why I feel really passionate about working against it. You know, like I
think that the speed of hiring creates kind of a dangerous cycle. Like we were saying, where
you had one instructor teaching something they learned a year ago. Yeah. And.
00:25:11 Speaker 1
Ohh for sure.
00:25:17 Speaker 2
You know, I hear stories that are that are quite shocking. I met a kid who came out here to fly
with me and he said, you know, I'm about ready to solo I.
00:25:24 Speaker 2
Just.
00:25:24 Speaker 2
Want a second opinion? And you know the kid had never started an airplane? His instructor
started it every time for me. He had never left the traffic pattern in 30 hours. His instructor
only flew with him and the traffic pattern. Yeah. Never used the radio. His instructor.
00:25:34 Speaker 1
That's a red flag.
00:25:39 Speaker 2
On the radio. So here's a guy. 30 hours says he's ready to solo, and I just told him to start the
airplane, he said. I've.
00:25:44 Speaker 2
Never done that, you know, I mean like.
00:25:47 Speaker 2
Shocking things and how does it? How does that happen? You know, how do you have an
instructor out there in the world? And this guy, you know, wouldn't give me his name because
I was ready to turn him in, you know?
00:25:57 Speaker 2
I thought that was gross negligence, obviously, but.
00:25:59 Speaker 1
Absolutely, I thought.
00:26:01 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:26:03 Speaker 2
So how do you know if you're a student? You know, how did? How did this kid know? I
mean, he fortunately, he was smart enough to have found me somewhere. I think he got
turned on to a podcast. Maybe he got a glimmer like this guy saying things. My instructor
doesn't.
00:26:15 Speaker 1
Say he knows how to start, that he lets people start.
00:26:17 Speaker 2
You know? And then he came out for an assessment.
00:26:20 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:26:22 Speaker 1
I think the important part with how do you know is to to get involved in the Community,
right? Like if you are just going to do flight instructing and that's it. Bad reputations spread
very fast in aviation, good reputations spread equally as fast. If you are hanging out at the
FBO, if you're involved with forums or just anything that is aviation in general, maybe even
getting.
00:26:43 Speaker 1
Good job just talking to people. Be like, hey, this is my flight shirt. This is name. Like, isn't
that the guy or the girl that doesn't let anyone start an engine? It's like, whoa, well, you need
to.
00:26:52 Speaker 1
Find some you.
00:26:52 Speaker 1
Know just being involved in the can really help out a lot and sometimes different personalities
mesh, so you gotta take all the advice you get with a grain of salt. If one person has a bad
experience.
00:26:53 Speaker 2
Yeah, 100%.
00:27:04 Speaker 1
It could be a one off, but when you start hearing, you know multiple people coming up being
like, oh, that was bad. I needed a new instructor. I had called Jason. I had to spend some extra
time in in his app and all that kind of stuff. I think you need to probably find somewhere else.
00:27:16
Yeah.
00:27:17 Speaker 2
Yeah, 100% like what you just said is so valuable. I always tell it's like that when people
come and work for me, I always say that this is aviation is like being stuck at a dinner party
with the same 15 people forever.
00:27:29 Speaker 1
Forever.
00:27:30 Speaker 2
You know what I mean? So, like, be really careful. Like what you say and and who you
know, cause like you said, everything spreads like wildfire. It's a pretty small community.
00:27:39 Speaker 2
And if folks didn't know it, most airports to like what you said about joining those
communities, a lot of airports have pilot group meetings once a month or have EAA chapters
where you can become a member of the experimental Association Aircraft Association even if
you.
00:27:54 Speaker 2
Aren't building and it's just a community of pilots, lots of different ways to get involved with
the community, but you're you're 100% right. If I can get two good references on a pilot, that's
about all I need. Yeah, that's how small. You know what I mean? That's.
00:28:07 Speaker 2
About how small the industry is.
00:28:08 Speaker 1
Yeah, and what's crazy is you were mentioning before about how it can feel kind of closed off
at the beginning when you're coming into to aviation. Like it feels like there's big fences up. It
feels like it's almost an impossible industry to break into. It's incredibly easy to get into this
industry, to start flying. You just have to make the effort, right? Like you just have to walk
into the door. Once you go into the door and be like.
00:28:26 Speaker 2
100%.
00:28:29 Speaker 1
Hey, I really like airplanes. You're gonna have.
00:28:32 Speaker 1
Dave, who has 8000 hours and a 747 drink and that crappy coffee being like hey boy, go fly,
you know, or or hey, dude, let's go. Yeah. So you just gotta make that effort. And once you
make that effort, you are going to have a community that will welcome you and will hopefully
they will. But you're gonna have community that will will will bring you in. They will.
00:28:39 Speaker 2
Ohh.
00:28:52 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:28:52 Speaker 1
We'll talk aviation. They'll tell you who needs, uh, who you should fly with, what airplanes
they flew, how they got.
00:28:57 Speaker 1
Four hours. That's how I found out about skipping the to become a CFI. No offense being a
CFI just wasn't me, but I was just flying around and really I was in my CFI training and
someone was like hey, Midwest stereo photography is hiring and I was like sweet, I don't
have to be a CFI. Do you have a recommendation or it's like, yeah, I can recommend you.
Here's the chief pilots phone number. Give him a call. I called him. I had 300 hours, got hired.
I started flying like a month.
00:29:18 Speaker 1
Twitter.
00:29:19 Speaker 2
Now I love.
00:29:20 Speaker 1
It yeah, now was it the best decision I ever made? Probably not. But it worked out. You know,
I I had an engine failure at 206, had a bunch of maintenance issues there, learned a lot. But
unfortunately, as you'll learn when you're moving into this career, building your time can be
dangerous. Building your time flying airplanes is dangerous. Making the right decisions and
learning how to say no can be very difficult. And one of the best things you can ever learn.
00:29:42 Speaker 1
Uh, so?
00:29:44 Speaker 1
Don't ever push shell too far you this is kind of getting farther into to a different series when
we move on from private pilot instrument commercial, but it's important to learn how to say
no pretty early in your career and always trust yourself. Trust your gut. If you have a good
CFI, they'll question you why you feel uncomfortable, and if they feel comfortable of it.
Maybe it's good to go up with them and they can show you. Hey, it's bumpy.
00:30:04 Speaker 1
But it's safe. Hey, it's raining, but it's safe. Hey, the clouds are are relatively low, but it's still
safe, you know? Or it's windy, but it's safe and you can push yourself that way.
00:30:13 Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, that's that. That's 100% accurate. And you know that's what it was about that fuel
truck job that was so amazing for me early on. It's just, it's the, it's what you said. It's all the
different pilots you meet, the people you meet sitting in the fuel truck, listening to the radio
when nothing's happening, you're just listening to the tower. You're doing runway inspections
for the tower.
00:30:19
Yeah.
00:30:21
Absolutely.
00:30:33 Speaker 2
There's a kid out at our local airport now, just working on his CFI and what he did was
airplane detailing, you know, so he's been around the airport. He created his own little
business card, and he does an amazing job.
00:30:45 Speaker 2
I mean, I don't pay them enough. Like I think I bring him in, like, once every two months or
something like that. That's what he charged me. Sits out there for 8 hours, decrease in the
belly of the plant. He looks like, you know, it shines in the hangar. I mean, that's the
reputation he's got. So everybody around is like when they think about, hey, you need a
copilot or, hey, you know, I think that's building tile. I think he's working on his commercial.
You should get him up with you, you know? And this kid's flying to Utah. He's flying all.
00:30:51 Speaker 1
Hard work, man.
00:30:53 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:30:57 Speaker 1
That is tough for it. Yeah, yeah.
00:31:03 Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:31:08 Speaker 2
Never.
00:31:10 Speaker 2
That's how it's done. I think it's networking.
00:31:12 Speaker 1
Like you said, volunteering your time, doing the hard jobs, showing that you have good work
ethic and just just being there. I think just being there and being a name that pops up in
someone's head. However you make that happen now, there is a fine line that you can push.
You can either be the really annoying person or you know, like there's a very fine line for how
you play that. But being there and being a good person.
00:31:18
Yeah.
00:31:23 Speaker 2
That makes sense.
00:31:31 Speaker 1
Is is just huge in the industry, especially early on because you make your reputation right
away and.
00:31:37 Speaker 2
Yeah, hard percent and.
00:31:39 Speaker 2
And.
00:31:40 Speaker 2
If you show up in the way that you just described, if if, if a person, if one were to show up and
show that they can work hard and demonstrate that they're present and even say something
like, hey, if you guys ever know anybody that's flying like I'm looking to build time, just
throw something like that out there. Yeah. Pilots just want to help.
00:31:59 Speaker 2
You know, it's funny. I go to the to Auburn airport and and Nevada County and the Bay Area.
Like I'm kind of all over, but Auburn in particular has no fences. I don't know if I ever told
you that, but it's like.
00:32:07 Speaker 1
No, you think?
00:32:09 Speaker 2
It's one of the only airports I always feel bad talking about it cause I'm afraid I'm.
00:32:13 Speaker 2
Gonna get.
00:32:13 Speaker 2
Him in trouble, but like, you know, we talked about all those like do not enter, you know,
lethal force will be used, right, like government trespassing. There's all these signs and barbed
wire.
00:32:22 Speaker 2
Around most airports.
00:32:24 Speaker 2
That's not the way it is at Auburn. Like the road drives right up to the ramp. And if you're an
unsuspecting, you know, citizen of the town, you could literally drive right onto the runway.
00:32:34 Speaker 2
You know, there's there's just no peril.
00:32:36 Speaker 2
For fence and what it does for the community is shocking. Like so, because that's what's true.
You you always have moms with strollers in the middle of the day. You've got dads with kids
on a Friday and none of these people are pilots. They just come to the airport to eat at the cafe
and watch the planes. They take advantage of it like the way you would hope a community.
00:32:57 Speaker 2
Wood and every time I see a mom and.
00:33:00 Speaker 2
Kid, if I have so much as 10 minutes, I kind of like open the door on my plane and I'm
thinking I wonder if she's gonna ask me if she wants to see inside, you know, or he comes
close. I'm like, hey, does he wanna see inside or does she wanna see inside? It's like pilots just
have this desire.
00:33:08 Speaker 1
Please come on. Yeah.
00:33:14 Speaker 2
To help and share and.
00:33:16 Speaker 1
100% agree. No, it's and it's important to remember that when you make it in your career to
remember how helpful that was, and now it's your part to give back and have that opportunity.
And that could be as an airline pilot, you see a kid smile when he sees the cockpit like, hey,
come on up, let's go look at the cockpit. It's just as easy as that's all you.
00:33:17 Speaker 2
Yeah, and.
00:33:25 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:33:31
Yeah.
00:33:32 Speaker 1
I do. I know we're kind of running short on time. I don't want you to be late for your French
appointment. So I want to bring up kind of more of an important part for for what? A student
pilot can do as an instructor, as someone who makes this their career. You have seen a lot of
people come to you to death. Flight lessons. What sets apart someone that is going to be a
good student?
00:33:33
That's it.
00:33:52 Speaker 1
Or a bad student and something they can do from the beginning before they ever touch an
airplane.
00:33:57 Speaker 2
I'm so glad you asked me that. Most folks are really in their own way and I think as a CFI.
00:34:07 Speaker 2
It becomes clear to you pretty quickly how to like the extent to which people are in their own
way.
00:34:12 Speaker 2
And I'll give you an example of student A and student B.
00:34:19 Speaker 2
Let me think of a good example here.
00:34:25 Speaker 2
All right. So let's imagine you're on final approach and you've got your there's an aiming point
and we're working on land.
00:34:33 Speaker 2
And the student comes in and pulls way too hard and the airplane sort of balloons and then to
react to the balloon, they push forward and the nose comes down. OK. And then now we're in
the situation where I have.
00:34:45 Speaker 2
To take over the airplane.
00:34:47 Speaker 2
I might say something in that situation to help fix it the next time around. Like I might say,
look, it's OK to balloon, but all you have to do to stop it from going back up is release the
back pressure. Don't push forward if you push forward, you're gonna go back to the runway,
OK? So that's my feedback is don't push forward, just release it a little bit.
00:35:07 Speaker 2
Right. So that's what I would say.
00:35:10 Speaker 2
A person not in their own way would say, OK, a person in their own way would say yeah,
man. But there was, like, Gus, did you see, like, I was totally stable on final like I was on
final. I had that aiming point. I had that aiming point and then the wind came off the right and
Gus and it's like all of a sudden, we're not talking anymore about the thing that I said because.
00:35:29
Yeah.
00:35:30 Speaker 2
The criticism that I gave.
00:35:33 Speaker 2
You know enough of a challenge to the ego that there was all this response about what was
done well and it's like that. That's what I mean. So students that are completely not in their
own way are such a joy to work with. In fact, my business partner, the guy that writes all the
my technical cofounder that writes all the code for the app.
00:35:50 Speaker 2
Was probably the.
00:35:52 Speaker 2
The one student I had who was least in his own way right there was like he got through my.
00:35:55 Speaker 1
Like I say, most of the way.
00:35:57 Speaker 2
Well, he was.
00:35:58 Speaker 2
He was out of his own way. He he was not like he finished the my instrument program, which
is a pretty hard program in like.
00:36:03 Speaker 2
3 1/2 or four months. Ohh wow.
00:36:05 Speaker 2
And pretty much every single thing I told him if I said hold your checklist up, he would just
say OK, and the next time he came, he would hold it up. Yeah. If I said I want you to finish
your approach briefing with how low, how long and which way. He wouldn't argue about why
it was better to do the briefing strip first or wouldn't it be better if I got the channel for, he
would just say, OK and it would.
00:36:24 Speaker 2
Come back and it would be fixed the way I wanted it to be fixed. That's awesome.
00:36:27 Speaker 2
And it's not an ego challenge.
00:36:29 Speaker 2
If I'm trying to do my job which is take 20 years of experience and give you these little
incremental improvements, the last thing I want you to do is argue with me about why or talk
about what you did great and if you disagree with me, that's fine. Like, that's learning, right?
You could. You could say that say, hey, let's talk about this cause I think it'd be better if we
did it a different way maybe.
00:36:50 Speaker 2
After the lesson or something like that, or before the lesson in the briefing. But that's not what
I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is in the airplane, I'm giving pointers and for
whatever reason, people are defending against taking that information in. So I think if you're
a.
00:37:06 Speaker 2
If you're a student pilot going into training, the two biggest pieces of advice that I could give
you is really try to get get out of your own way, really try to understand.
00:37:15 Speaker 2
To just take what's coming from the instructor, and sometimes it's not fun. Like my mentor
Richard was a **** ****. Like, I fired that guy three times, right? So sometimes so. So he
would just sit there and pound on me. He would give me that feedback that I was talking
about. But he would do it in an insulting way. And I would just have to take it, you know, and
I did thankfully. But the other thing is to put in the time.
00:37:21 Speaker 1
I'm a retired. I am, yeah.
00:37:36 Speaker 2
In between lessons like it's not bowling, it's not writing. You're not gonna show up and.
00:37:41 Speaker 2
Just do it when you get there. Like the reason my partner Todd was so successful with me in
my instrument rating was for two reasons. One is he was not in his own way. He was hearing
what I was.
00:37:51 Speaker 2
Saying.
00:37:52 Speaker 2
And just saying, OK, but then he was taking the time in between the lessons to practice the
thing that I told him if it was, hold the checklist up, it wasn't. He didn't just wait till the next
time he saw me.
00:38:02 Speaker 2
To sort of think about that, he did some chair flying and he worked it through. He fixed the
problem for real on his own so that when he came back to me, I said Yep, check that that
problem is fixed. But wait, I noticed another one. You know, don't do this thing and he would
say OK and then we came back the next time that would be fixed too.
00:38:17 Speaker 2
And in that way, it was extremely effective and efficient and.
00:38:21 Speaker 2
3 1/2 months.
00:38:23 Speaker 1
There you go. It's very impressive. And as someone who has created this app, that is a
resource, what would you let's just say they listen to this. They download the app they signed
up for it. They're all in. They're student pilot. They're getting ready to their their first flights in
a week. Would you recommend they go through lessons? Would you recommend they read
anything? Like, what would you recommend for them to do with that?
00:38:43 Speaker 1
App to prepare themselves for their first flight.
00:38:48 Speaker 2
You know, everybody's a little bit different, so it's hard to come up with a.
00:38:53 Speaker 2
You know, do this because it's not going to fit everybody. But the thing that I would say is
there's this concept in flying of the saturation point like the image we we often talk about it
with the instrument flying with the image we use is like a juggler, you know. And if
somebody's good at juggling, they can juggle, juggle 3 balls and.
00:39:11 Speaker 2
If they're really good, maybe 4.
00:39:12 Speaker 2
Maybe.
00:39:12 Speaker 2
5:00 but when you throw them a sixth ball or whatever ball, they can't juggle and they go for
it, they lose the whole thing.
00:39:20 Speaker 2
Right all the.
00:39:21 Speaker 2
Balls fall. It's not like they just missed that sixth ball, and so I would say if you're not
saturated, then absolutely the app is there for you to to go through. There's of course the
ground knowledge and the.
00:39:33 Speaker 2
The written test prep, but the the flight side, the flying.
00:39:36 Speaker 2
Inside what I what we're trying to do is give you that primacy, that you, even if you're not
finding it from other people, right, like we've got the the standard operating procedures and
the basic communications. And then how to do a pre flight inspection and how to start the
airplane and how to taxi the airplane and to the extent that you can get ahead on.
00:39:54 Speaker 2
All that stuff.
00:39:56 Speaker 2
Beautiful. If it doesn't make you feel saturated and what I would recommend is having a
notebook that you're writing down questions you don't understand.
00:40:02 Speaker 2
Like I watched the starting video, but you know I don't understand why we can't hold the key
on start at, you know, like what's the problem?
00:40:09 Speaker 2
With.
00:40:09 Speaker 2
That whatever the whatever The thing is right, you write down the question so that when you
go to your CFI, hopefully you tell that CFI, hey, I've been using this app, you get it for free,
by the way, because you're CF, I just, you know, go to learnthefinalpoints.com.
00:40:23 Speaker 2
And anyway, I wrote down a bunch of questions.
00:40:24 Speaker 2
For.
00:40:25 Speaker 2
You you know.
00:40:27 Speaker 2
Here, here's some stuff I brought in. You know, what do you think of this?
00:40:32 Speaker 2
And other people, if that feels like over your head or you want to be a little bit more
methodical, maybe you don't have that much time or or whatever it is, I would say work with
it until you hit that saturation point or feel like you're getting in way over your head and it is
built in such a way that if you're a person that wants to go.
00:40:48 Speaker 2
Through the whole thing, you can go through the whole thing, yeah.
00:40:51 Speaker 1
Cool. So to recap a little bit, we have use Google, find out where the flight schools are, get a
mentor, whether that's just a buddy. You know that's an aviation or just go to the flight school
and start talking to people. Create friendships, professional pilots of tomorrow is a great
resource which you talked about.
00:41:07 Speaker 1
Yeah, invest in yourself. Whether that's resources like the ground school app or whatever you
do to make feel comfortable. That's having the nicest headset or the best, whatever you need
to do to feel more comfortable in the airplane, go ahead and do it. And don't be afraid to shop
around. Look at the flight school, see what you want, change flight instructors. You need to
and try to get your your medical.
00:41:26 Speaker 1
Pretty early on, obviously you need it to go fly, but before you invest in any of that stuff, get
your medical, especially your see if you get a first class. If you want to be an airline pilot,
cause your career is not gonna go very far. If you can't get a first class medical. So those are
pretty much the main steps that I did. I forget anything. Do you remember anything we talked
about? I didn't.
00:41:43 Speaker 2
No, no. But I I think that's good advice about the medical, even if you're not going to be a pro
pilot. Like, I mean, getting a first class medical because if you're unable to get a first class
medical, I don't know, it might be a sign of, I don't know, some some condition. And it always
sucks to put all this money into it and find out later that you can't fly.
00:41:58 Speaker 1
For sure. And you can still, there's still avenues for you to fly if you can't get a first class
medical, just as a profession, it might not be for you. So it's definitely important to get that
early on.
00:42:08 Speaker 1
Hey Jason, you have a French lesson that you need to start going to. So our next podcast is
gonna be only in French. All you need ChatGPT to translate everything I say and good luck to
anyone.
00:42:19 Speaker 1
And there are some French words all over the place in aviation.
00:42:19
All right.
00:42:21 Speaker 1
So.
00:42:21 Speaker 1
It'll be very useful. Amen.
00:42:22 Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Peter tube.
00:42:25 Speaker 2
Alright, Justin, nice to chat with you. Thanks again.
00:42:26 Speaker 1
Absolutely no problem. We'll do the next episode soon, alright?
00:42:28
Right.
00:42:29 Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:42:29 Speaker 1
See.
00:42:31 Speaker 1
That's wrap on today's episode. Thank you so much for listening. I really appreciate everyone
spending their time and and listening to us. So it's crazy that it's almost been seven years, I
think now.
00:42:41
You're just wild.
00:42:42 Speaker 1
You have told me seven years ago that I'd still be doing a podcast. Not only would I.
00:42:45 Speaker 1
Laugh in your face. But I would probably.
00:42:47 Speaker 1
Laugh very, very hard.
00:42:49 Speaker 1
But even nation, that's all I got for you today to next week is going to be how to become a
private pilot and it's just exactly what you think. It's just this. But plus private pilot.
00:42:58 Speaker 1
We're gonna do another state of the industry soon, and if you want anyone to come on the
podcast, make sure you shoot me an e-mail at justin@pilotthepilothq.com invitation. That's all
I got for you, as always. Have a good day and happy flying. Pilot Pilot LLC is compensated,
make recommendations to his or her followers regarding the services of RAA or Alworth.
Airline advisors, companies of all financial, LP or Alworth promoters, not an employee or
investment advisor representative of all with promoter is a current client of all. Worth all
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00:43:22 Speaker 1
Do the compensation arrangement with promoter has an incentive to recommend all with
resulting in material conflict of interest promoters on behalf of all with is limited strictly to
making recommendations regarding the services of all worth introducing or referring
prospective clients to auth promoter has no responsibility with respect to all investment
advisor or other advisory.