JARILOPUB00301 29/11/2011

JARILO pp 00301-00378

PUBLIC HEARING

COPYRIGHT

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION

THE HONOURABLE DAVID IPP AO QC

PUBLIC HEARING OPERATION JARILO Reference: Operation E11/0446

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS AT SYDNEY ON TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2011 AT 10.05 AM

Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 112(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1988. This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

301T

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson. MR WATSON: Thank you, Commissioner. May I call James Garry. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Garry is not represented? MR WATSON: No. Mr Garrys evidence is purely for form of character. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Garry, why dont you take a seat there, please. Mr Garry, youre not legally represented are you? MR GARRY: No, Im not. THE COMMISSIONER: No. And I need to explain something to you before you give evidence. I dont think it applies to you, but Im duty bound to explain this to you. I can make an order which has the affect that none of the evidence you give can be used against you in criminal proceedings or disciplinary proceedings or civil proceedings. As I understand it, the likelihood of the need for that arising is remote, but nevertheless if you would like me to make an order of that kind, I will. Do you understand what I am saying? MR GARRY: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. What would you like me to do? MR GARRY: No, its not necessary, thats fine. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you. Do you wish to give your evidence under oath or do you wish affirm the truth of your evidence? MR GARRY: Ill affirm the truth of my evidence.

10

20

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

302T

<JAMES GARRY, affirmed

[10:07am]

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson. MR WATSON: Just before we start, you dont need to lean forward to (not transcribable). Is your name James Garry?---Yes. But youre commonly known as Jim?---Yes. 10 Actually Im sorry, you will need to come forward a little, just - - THE COMMISSIONER: Or just move the microphone. MR WATSON: Yes. Are you the Director of Security at the Four Seasons Hotel?---Yes. Located down in The Rocks?---Thats correct. 20 And you were in that position, that is Director of Security, as at 2009?---I believe 2007. Yes, since 2007 until the present day?---Thats correct. Now as such, youve acquired a full understanding of the security and management systems put in place down at the Four Seasons?---Yes, thats correct. Now in terms of the Four Seasons, they have a system of room keys. Is that so?---Yes. And the type of key used is not a conventional door key, its a kind of swipe card?---Yes, its an electronic swipe card. So that it operates something like a credit card and you insert into a device on the door which can open the door. Is that so?---The key can be placed against the door facing and an electronic signal will open the door. The usual practice or at least the typical practice is that any person booking into the hotel would be given two such room keys?---Yes. Now I ask that the witness be shown page 669. Youve got a screen there Mr Garry, you may be able to see it. ICAC came to speak to you and ask you about bookings made on a particular night, 15 July, 2009. Do you recall meeting with ICAC about that?---Yes. And you were able to produce a record for ICAC which you can see there in front of you?---Yes.

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GARRY (WATSON)

303T

And you can see that it relates to a particular room number on a particular date?---Yes. And you can from that tell us who booked the room, when they booked in and when they checked out. Is that so?---Thats correct. And so we can see that the person who booked the room was Senad Kaminic?---Yes. 10 And we can see, can we, that the price of the room was $325?---Yes. And that that payment was made up front?---Yes. At least it was made so that there was no balance on the room?---Thats correct. And if the witness could then be shown page 672, Mr Garry, you can see there a printout, it seems to be an image recording something which would appear on a computer screen and what we can see - its a fairly faint image, but nonetheless we can see that theres a reference to this (not transcribable) that is Senad was going to be booking a room?---Yes. And you can see that the room was booked - if you look below the room was booked on 15 July, 2009 at 22.31?---Yes. Or 10.31pm, is that so?---Thats correct, yes, thats correct. And then we can see the time at which at least one person returned a room key, is that so?---The record shows 03.16 a key would have been returned for that to be recorded on the system. Well, just to explain it, it shows 3.16am on the next day, 16 July, 2009? ---Yes. And under the system which then (not transcribable) at the Four Seasons that entry would be made when somebody checking out of the room first returned a room key?---Yes. 40 And then the entry is made in the system?---Yes, thats correct. I tender those two pages, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Is this an invoice at page 669, Mr Garry, what is this document which shows the price of the room and the payment for the room? What is the document? How would you describe it?

20

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GARRY (WATSON)

304T

MR WATSON: On its face its described as an information invoice. Is that so, Mr Garry?---Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well. Exhibit 13 is the information invoice from the Four Seasons Hotel showing an arrival on 15 July, 2009 and a departure on 16 July, 2009.

10

#EXHIBIT 13 - INFORMATION INVOICE FROM THE FOUR SEASONS HOTEL SHOWING AN ARRIVAL ON THE 15/07/09 AND DEPARTURE ON 16/07/09

THE COMMISSIONER: Exhibit 14, how would you describe the document at page 672, Mr Garry, what is it?---The image that is seen is a copy that was transferred from our reservations database, it is all OPERA and is it basically a reservation system, information is placed in that general system for our records. 20 Thank you. Exhibit 14 is a copy of an extract from Four Seasons reservation database for 15 July and 16 July, 2009.

#EXHIBIT 14 - COPY OF EXTRACT FROM FOUR SEASONS RESERVATIONS

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Watson. 30 MR WATSON: Thank you, Commissioner. Theyre the questions for this witness. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale? MR HALE: No questions. THE COMMISSIONER: No questions. Mr Terracini? MR TERRACINI: Nor have I. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Any questions from anyone else? Thank you for your evidence, Mr Garry, you are excused?---Yep.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED

[10.15am]

MR WATSON: Commissioner, may I call Senad Kaminic.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GARRY (WATSON)

305T

THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Kaminic represented?

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GARRY (WATSON)

306T

MR WATSON: He has representation from Mr Hudson. MR HUDSON: Good morning, Commissioner. Hudson, H-U-D-S-O-N. I appear for and with Mr Kaminic. THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? MR HUDSON: I appear for and with Mr Kaminic. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, with leave. MR HUDSON: Hes just outside. THE COMMISSIONER: With leave. MR HUDSON: Thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: Please be seated, Mr Kaminic. Mr Hudson, do you want me to make a section 38 order? 20 MR HUDSON: Yes, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Pursuant to section 38 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by Mr Kaminic and all documents produced by him during the course of his evidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given or produced on objection and accordingly there is no need for him to make objection in respect of any particular answer given or document produced. 30 PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY MR KAMINIC AND ALL DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF HIS EVIDENCE AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND ACCORDINGLY THERE IS NO NEED FOR HIM TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT PRODUCED. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Kaminic, you understand that this order means that none of the evidence you give in these proceedings can be used against you in civil or criminal proceedings or in any other disciplinary proceedings? MR KAMINIC: Yes, I do.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

307T

THE COMMISSIONER: But you understand that that doesnt protect you should you not tell the truth in this proceedings and that is proved against you? MR KAMINIC: Yes, I do. THE COMMISSIONER: And you understand that the, that giving false answers to the Commission is a serious criminal offence which carries a maximum penalty of gaol of up to five years? 10 MR KAMINIC: Yes, I do. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Watson? MR WATSON: Is your name Senad Kaminic? MR KAMINIC: Yes. MR WATSON: So sorry. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I beg your pardon. Do you wish to give your evidence under oath or do you wish to affirm the truth of your evidence? MR KAMINIC: (NO AUDIBLE REPLY) THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to swear on the Bible or not? MR KAMINIC: On the (not transcribable) 30 THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? MR KAMINIC: I swear on the (not transcribable) THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to swear on the Bible or not? MR KAMINIC: No, not on the bible. THE COMMISSIONER: No. 40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

308T

<SENAD KAMINIC, affirmed

[10.17am]

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson? MR WATSON: Is your name Senad Kaminic?---Yes. Now, Mr Kaminic, I cant help but notice that youre a tall man. Do you know how tall you are?---197 centimetre. 10 And, Mr Kaminic, I also notice that you wear your hair today in what Id call a ponytail. Has that been a custom of yours for some years?---Yes. Mr Kaminic, some years ago you were involved in security work and through that work you came to meet and then to know Lucky Gattellari. Is that so?---Yes. And eventually you became to be employed by Mr Gattellari?---Yes. 20 And you were employed by one of his businesses, a business called IC Light, at Chipping Norton?---Yes. But really in substance you were working with Mr Gattellari on a near daily basis, working as his driver and as in effect his personal assistant?---Yes. And so your time with him was fairly constant over the last few years? ---Yes. Or at least up until fairly recently. Through Mr Gattellari you were at some stage introduced to Mr Ron Medich?---Yes. And you know who he is?---Yes, I know him. You were also taken on many occasions to The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes. And when Mr Gattellari would dine at The Tuscany Restaurant, would he be commonly in the company of Mr Medich?---Yes. Would you sit at their table or another table?---I do, but if its something, you know, serious matter business, no. THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I cant hear, Mr Kaminic. THE WITNESS: I used to sit with them but if its some discussion about serious business I never sit with them.

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

309T

MR WATSON: All right. Well, could I put it this way perhaps. Generally speaking you would sit with them but if they had something serious or important or critical to talk about you may be put at another table? ---Correct, yes. And did you meet Frank Moio?---Yes, I do. And did you get to know him pretty well from your occasions at The Tuscany?---Yes. 10 And during those years Im talking about 2008 and 2009 were your attendances at The Tuscany for lunch quite common?---Yes. Near daily basis. Is that right?---You could say it like that. Well lets put it this way, virtually every week you would have lunch at least once at The Tuscany?---I believe so. And some weeks youd have lunch there every day?---Correct. Yes. 20 Less commonly you would have dinner at The Tuscany. Is that so?---Yes. Now sometimes in your group or in the people who you sat with at The Tuscany there would be this group of young Asian women. Is that right? ---Yes. And sometimes you would be given the job of driving them to and from places and the like?---Yes. 30 And they were there quite often were they?---Not really. Just on occasions?---I can say a few times. Well could I ask you were there occasions when you and Mr Gattellari and Mr Medich were seated at the same table as the young Asian women? ---Yes. And that happened more than once?---Correct. 40 Did you ever meet the Minister, Mr Ian Macdonald?---I never met him personally. It was pointed out to you at some stage who he was?---Yes. Now I want to take you back to a particular night, the date is 15 July, 2009. But I think youre not much good with dates. Is that so?---I cant remember dates, but - - -

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

310T

Well I want to remind you of this event by reference to something which happened. Was there a night when you were at The Tuscany Restaurant when you were asked to drive a young Asian woman to the Four Seasons Restaurant in The Rocks?---Correct. Yes. And then on the same night you ended up at Mr Medichs house in Point Piper?---Yes. 10 Now I want to ask you about the circumstances of that night. You went to The Tuscany that night?---Yes. Who had told you to go to The Tuscany that night?---I came together with Lucky. THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---Mr Gattellari. Mr Gattellari?---I came together with Mr Gattellari. 20 You came together with Mr Gattellari?---Yes. MR WATSON: You travelled to the restaurant with Mr Gattellari?---Yes. Did you have anybody else in your car?---On the way over there I cant remember was anyway. In any event you arrived at The Tuscany and you sat at a table?---Yeah. Did you sit with Mr Gattellari?---Yes, I did. 30 Were other people already at that table when you arrived or were you the first ones to that table?---I sort of remember, I believe we were the first. And did other people join that table after you had sat there?---Yeah. And who were those other people who joined you at that table?---I believe it was Kim Shipley and who else (not transcribable) another few girls. There were a few girls?---Yes. 40 Do you remember how many there were?---I remember four. So there was yourself, Gattellari, Shipley and the four girls. Is that so?---As I remember. Did Mr Medich ever join you at that table?---He was for few minutes and then - - -

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

311T

When he was there for those few minutes did he sit down at the table?---I cannot remember this. All right. In any event you were sitting at the table with a group of people and some time during the night you were asked to leave the table. Is that so? Somebody spoke to you as a result of which you left the table and went to the Four Seasons?---Yes. Who spoke to you?---Lucky Gattellari. 10 And what did Gattellari say to?---To take certain person to Four Seasons Hotel, get a room over there. Right. THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? MR WATSON: To take a certain person to the Four Seasons Hotel - - -? ---And get a room, put her in the room. 20 And to put her in a room?---Yeah. Now when you say a certain person, was this one of the young Asian women at the table?---Yes. Correct. Do you remember the name of the particular woman?---I cant remember name. Im going to suggest a name to you, Tiffanie, does that ring a bell?---Could be. In any event Gattellari came to you and told you. Is that the only detail he gave you or did he give you money or any other means of acquiring the room?---He gave me $400. In cash?---Yes. And did you then travel with the young lady?---Yes, I do. 40 Did you go in her car or your car?---In her car. I think you had driven Gattellari to The Tuscany that night?---Yes, I do. Did you do something with the keys to your car, did you give them to Gattellari for example?---Should be. And so you travelled with the young lady in her car to the Four Seasons. Do you remember arriving at the restaurant, sorry, the hotel?---Yes, I do.

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

312T

And was the car taken away by valet parking?---Yeah. Now, on the way to the Four Seasons after you got into the car with the young lady, did you talk to her?---Yeah, we have a chat. Right. Did you talk about things relevant to what she was going to do at the Four Seasons?---Yes. 10 What did she say, what did you say?---I told her, you know, why shes there for. Actually she was already told, then I just- - Well, what did you say when you told her what she was there for, what did you say to her?---Just told her she was, shes going to meet some gentleman, shes just staying in the room as long as required and to do what she is asked to do. Right. And- - -?---Or already said to do. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---Or already, it was- - It was already- - -?---It was already organised through Lucky what to do and --MR WATSON: When you said this, are you using polite words? You dont need to, you can tell us exactly what was said. If the language was crude or the conversation crude, you need to tell us what was, what were you talking about?---Oh, it is nothing rude, she was told shes going to meet a gentleman in the room and they should, you know, spend night in the room and probably she was told shes going to have sex and- - Did she say to you anything which indicated that she already knew that that was her task?---I cant recall that. In any event, you arrive at the Four Seasons. THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Mr Watson. You said that, I think you said twice that she already had been told what she was going to do there?---I believe she was told but thats- - 40 What makes you believe that?---I believe all these girls, they know why theyre over there because they are told before and asked to do certain things and I believe. Are they girls who you knew?---Yeah, I, I think I knew all of them. Maybe one I met first time over there. And Ill leave that to you, Mr Watson.

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

313T

MR WATSON: You arrive at the Four Seasons. The cars taken by the valet parking. Did you go inside the reception area?---Correct. Did you approach the reception desk?---Yes. What did you do?---Booked the room. Booked the room?---Yep. 10 And weve got some evidence which suggests that you used a MasterCard to book the room?---Yes, correct. And that was your MasterCard?---Yes. And you took the $400 in cash as a repayment for whatever you expended on your MasterCard. Is that so?---Yes. When you, I should have asked you this earlier. When Gattellari told you to take the young lady to the Four Seasons Hotel and to book a room, did he tell you what you had to do with the room key?---Yes. What did he tell you?---To give to Mr Medich. Did you receive a room key or keys from the Four Seasons reception desk? ---Yes. What did you do after that?---Go in the room and, with the girl. 30 Well, did you go back to the young lady?---Yes, she was maybe a metre or two away from me. Did the two of you go to the room?---Yep. Did you open the door?---Yes, I did. And did you leave her in the room?---Yes. And that was the last you saw of her, at least that night?---Yes. 40 And then where did you go?---I go downstairs back in the same place as reception. Now, at the Four Seasons Hotel theres a large foyer near the reception where there are a number of chairs?---Yes. Is that, you were sitting there, were you?---Yeah.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

314T

So you sat there and waited?---Yes. And for whom were you waiting?---For Mr Medich. And did Mr Medich come?---Yes. And did he approach you?---Yes. Did you have a conversation with him?---Yes. 10 What did he say, what did you say?---I just give him a key, I say here is key, I was told and - - You gave him the room key?---Yes. Did you then wait for Medich?---Yes, I wait for him. He went away somewhere did he?---I remember he went upstairs. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Did he go alone?---I believe he walk by the stairs. Alone?---Yes. MR WATSON: When you saw Medich he was by himself, is that right? ---Yes. And you gave him the room key and then he moved by himself to another part of the hotel?---Yes. 30 Now - - THE COMMISSIONER: Mr - sorry, Mr Watson. Mr Kaminic, there were two hotel keys that you got, werent there, when you booked the hotel or just one?---I believe two. So you gave one to Mr Medich or two?---Oh, I say I remember one, another one left in the room. 40 When you left the girl behind in the room you left the key there too?---I believe, Im not a hundred per cent about this one but I believe. MR WATSON: When you walk into the Four Seasons Hotel from the street theres the large foyer area where you were seated and behind that theres a big staircase which goes up to a level above, is that right?---Yes. Is that the staircase you saw Mr Medich mount when he walked away with the key?---Yeah, I think so.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)

315T

And did Mr Medich ever tell you who he was taking the key to or why he was taking the key?---In this moment I cannot remember. All right. But in any event, did you wait for Mr Medich to return?---Yes. And did you then travel with Mr Medich to his home at Point Piper?---Yes. And there you met Gattellari and others?---Yes. 10 And eventually after some time at Point Piper made your way home? ---Thats correct. Thank you, Commissioner. Thats the - - THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale? MR HALE: Pardon me. No cross-examination. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini? MR TERRACINI: Just very briefly, Mr Kaminic, have you been to that hotel before?---I cannot remember. I believe I was one more time there but before or after in the foyer, I cannot remember. The big staircase thats in the foyer, you know that that leads to a bar?---I think so. Can you see people in the bar from where you were standing in the foyer? ---I cant remember it. Well, did Mr Medich say anything to you like hes just going up to have a drink or anything like that?---No, he says hes going to give key and I knew from before to whom and I cannot remember did he tell me in this moment or not. Well, approximately how long was he up in the bar, sorry, up at the top of the stairs?---Maybe five, five, 10 minutes maximum. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, if youre not going to ask to whom I am. MR TERRACINI: Im sorry, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: If youre not going to ask this witness to whom he knew the key was going to be given - - MR TERRACINI: Oh, no, no, I was going to ask it - - -

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (WATSON)/(TERRACINI)

316T

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, very well, if youre going to ask then Ill leave that. THE COMMISSIONER: You understand the key was going to be provided to someone?---Yes, I do. And who told you who that person was?---Lucky Gattellari told me its going to be for Mr Macdonald. 10 Right. And did you have any idea who Mr Macdonald was?---Yeah, I knew. So Gattellari gave you the money to book the room?---Correct. And basically other than providing the key to Mr Medich all of the arrangements to your understanding at least were made by Mr Gattellari. THE COMMISSIONER: All the arrangements for the hotel. 20 MR TERRACINI: Yes?---For the hotel, yes. Yes, thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale, in the light of that evidence I invite you to cross-examine if you wish. MR HALE: Mr Kaminic, do you read the newspapers (not transcribable)? ---Hardly ever, hardly ever. 30 Do you watch news programmes on television?---Yeah, I do. Do you take much of an interest in politics in New South Wales?---Not really. Did you, did you have any understanding who Mr Macdonald was in 2009? ---As I understand was Minister. Yes. Who told you that?---I been told from Lucky and Mr Medich and also a few times saw on TV. And you say that, were you actually told by Mr Gattellari that the, that the key was ultimately for Mr Macdonald?---Yes. What did he say? Can you remember?---Can you tell me question, I dont understand what you mean what he says?

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (TERRACINI)/(HALE)

317T

You I think told us that you had been, perhaps you didnt, when did you first start driving for Mr Gattellari?---I did know him I believe 2005, 6. From 2005 and 2006 you regularly drove Mr Gattellari around Sydney? ---Yes, I do. In that period of time you regularly attended lunches and dinners at The Tuscany Restaurant?---I did later. 10 Yes, later. But by, by 2009 you regularly attended lunches and dinners at The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes, I do. You regularly drove people for at the request of Mr Gattellari?---Yes, I do. You regularly drove girls for Mr Gattellari?---I do not can you call it regularly, but if I been asked, yes. And when were you first asked by investigators of ICAC about the events of 15 June, 2009?---Maybe ten, 11 months ago. Something like that. 20 Ten or 11 months ago?---Oh, I been asked about - - Yes?---Is that what youre asking me? When somebody from ICAC, an investigator from ICAC spoke to you about the events of 15 July, 2009?---Something like that. Yes. Was that conversation with the investigator this year?---Could be this year. 30 So you might have had this discussion with the investigator some time last year?---I dont think so. Well when do you think you had this conversation with the investigator?--THE COMMISSIONER: Which one is that? MR HALE: The first conversation that you had with the investigator?---I dont know. Could have been in January or Im not quite sure. 40 Youre not sure. There was nothing particularly unusual about that night on 15 July, 2009 was there?---First time in my life I book room for someone and put someone in room. That was the only aspect that was unusual?---And what this meeting was. Sorry?---All night was a bit different.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)

318T

Because of the girls that were there?---Yes. But I think youve told us the girls had been at the table with you before? ---Yes, but not in the same way. THE COMMISSIONER: Not in the same?---I says not in the same way they been. Not in the same way. 10 MR HALE: Thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hudson. MR HUDSON: No, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: I take it theres no one else who wishes to crossexamine. 20 MR WATSON: Mr Kaminic - - -?---Yes. - - - you said that sometime you have been told by Lucky Gattellari that the girl in the room had been organised for Ian Macdonald?---Yes. When did Gattellari tell you that?---He told me before this event is going to be hard to say, you know, girls organise for Mr Macdonald and to attend the --When you say before the event do you mean before - - -?---Oh, one or two even maybe before, I cannot remember, the same day at least. A day or two before or the same day at least Lucky Gattellari told you - - -? ---Yep. - - - that a girl and a room were being organised for Ian Macdonald. Is that right?---Oh, to organise girl for and I didnt know exact details, am I going to put girl in the room or not. I been told this night. THE COMMISSIONER: Did he tell you for whom?---Yes, he did. 40 MR WATSON: For Ian Macdonald?---Yes. Commissioner, I think in light of that evidence I would accept that anyone who wished to question further should be given the opportunity. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale?

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)/(WATSON)

319T

MR HALE: You can remember a few moments ago I asked you what it was Mr Gattellari said to you about giving the key to someone?---He told me to give key to Mr Medich. Yes. And then you, in answer to I think Mr Watsons questions, you said that you thought that the key was ultimately to go to Mr Macdonald?---I was told before. Well, I asked you, can you remember, what it was that Mr Gattellari said, and I think you said you couldnt understand the question. Do you remember that?---(NO AUDIBLE REPLY) MR WATSON: I think he said, Commissioner, that he couldnt understand Mr Hales question. MR HALE: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. 20 MR WATSON: Yes. MR HALE: Thats what I was intending to convey. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, I understood that. MR HALE: Can you remember that?---(NO AUDIBLE REPLY) Can you remember that?---Can you repeat the question, please. 30 Yes. You remember earlier you told the Commission that it was your understanding that, it was your understanding that the key would ultimately go to Mr Macdonald. Do you remember, do you remember giving that evidence earlier?---Through Mr Medich. And can you remember, and, and you said that you understood that from something that was said by Mr Gattellari?---Yes. And I asked you what did Mr Gattellari say. Do you remember me asking you that question?---Yes, I do. 40 And you said you didnt understand my question. Can you remember that? ---Yes, I do. What is so difficult about that question that I asked you?---I didnt know what to answer, whole story or just exact words.

10

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)

320T

So what, when you, you were told about the, at what time were you, were you asked by Mr Gattellari to take this young lady to the Four Seasons Hotel?---I been asked after some time we were sitting there this evening. Sometime during the course of the evening. Is that right?---Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Is that the first time you were asked or not the first time?---I been asked to take her in there but like he already told me this night I have to take girl. 10 When did he tell you that?---I believe during the day. MR HALE: And when, when, when you were at the table that night you tell the Commission that Mr Gattellari told you that he wanted you to take the lady to the hotel. Is that right?---Correct. What did he say?---To book the room in the Four Season Hotel and take the girl and leave her over there. 20 And what time of the evening was that?---7.00, 8.00. About 7.00 or 8.00?---Something like that, Im not quite sure. Youre not, youre not certain. And where were you sitting at the table? ---You mean in Tuscany? Yes?---We were sitting on a (not transcribable) which is (not transcribable) entering the car park and over theres a row of the seats, we were sitting over there. 30 Were you sitting next to Mr Gattellari?---I believe across. Across?---The same table but I know he was sitting over there, I was opposite side. And do you say that, and at some time during the course of the evening, what, did he lean over to you across the table and say that you would like, he would like you to take the girl to the Four Seasons Hotel?---Yeah, he did. 40 And did he hand over cash across the table?---No. When did he give you the cash?---I cant remember did we get, you know, inside or he give me probably under the table, but not over the table to everyone see. Well, can you remember him giving cash to you by pushing it under the table or is that just a guess on your part?---What I say, I cant remember exactly was it here or, was it A or B (not transcribable)

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)

321T

Well, he might have taken you outside, is that what you say?---Thats what I say, he may give me under the table or take me on the side, a few metres (not transcribable). You have no recollection, no distinct recollection, of how he gave the cash to you, to you, do you?---What do you mean how? Well, you dont know whether he gave it to you under the table or whether he took you outside and gave you the cash, you just dont remember the circumstances in which he gave you the cash?---To me is not important. He gave me a hundred times cash and - - Yes. Well, he gave you cash hundreds of times but when he gave you cash hundreds of times he always had an explanation for why he was giving you the money?---Thats correct. He would give you the money and tell you to do something?---Yes. 20 And you say, do you say on this occasion he handed over the cash and said to you take this girl to the Four Seasons Hotel and book a room?---(not transcribable) tell me that. Yes. And did he have - and he, and he told you what to do at the time he gave you the cash?---Yes. And you cant remember exactly what he said, can you?---Well, I say I can remember roughly but not every word. 30 No, and you cant remember where you were?---Not really but I says was told me a few times at least this day. THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---What I say is I been told at least one more time this day what to do and then - - MR HALE: Well, so you, you were - do you say that at an earlier time in the day you were told by Mr Gattellari to take a particular girl to the hotel and book a room?---Yes. 40 Do - and where, when, when did that take place?---Some time during the daytime. Well, were you with him, Mr Gattellari at the time?---Of course. So it was some time during the course of the day you had this conversation with Mr Gattellari?---Yes.

10

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)

322T

And he said later this evening I want you to take a girl and book her in at the Four Seasons Hotel?---Something like that. Yeah. Did he say which the girl, who the girl was?---No one knows that. No. THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon?---No one knows each girl is going to be. 10 At what stage was that? When he first spoke to you?---Yeah. MR HALE: And what were you doing at the time when he had this conversation?---Probably sitting or driving maybe. You have no recollection of what you were doing at the time?---Not really. You see, I suggest to you that the only occasion that he asked you to take the girl into the Four Seasons was when you were at the table or at the time he gave you the cash?---I didnt understand you, can you repeat again? Yes, Ill say it again. The first time Mr Gattellari asked you to take the girl was at the time he handed over the cash to you. THE COMMISSIONER: Thats a question?---I cant remember was it. I believe he gave me in the night-time. MR HALE: And what Im suggesting to you the first occasion that he asked you to take the girl was the time when he handed over the cash to you, thats right, isnt it?---To, to say, when he asked me to take specific girl, yes. Yeah. I suggest to you you had no earlier conversations about taking a girl to the hotel and the first occasion was the occasion that he gave you the cash?---Oh, and during the daytime Ive been told girl is going to come and be taken in the room but not hundred, no specific like in the evening take this girl and Four Season and do this and that. Thats the first time when I got specific. 40 Yes. Can you - and when you, when the, the cash was handed over did Mr Medich simply say to you I want you to take this girl - Im sorry. Did Mr - Ill start again. When Mr Gattellari handed you the cash and asked you to take the girl to the Four Seasons, is that all he said?---He told me take the girl in the Four Season and book the room and leave her over there. And leave her in the room and Ron is going to come to give him a key. Yes. And thats what you can remember him saying?---Well, I say I cant remember exact words but that was, was what happened.

20

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)

323T

And you cant remember what he said in this conversation that you say you had with him earlier in the day about taking the girl can you? You cant remember what words he used. THE COMMISSIONER: He cant remember the exact words. MR HALE: Exactly?---I says exact word, but is spend all day every day together, and I cannot recall every moment of my life or with time spent with Lucky Gattellari, I cant remember. See what I suggest to you that Mr Gattellari did not mention the, the key was for Mr Macdonald at the time he handed over the cash?---I say I remember him mention. Sorry?---I say I remember he mention. But when did he mention it? At the time he, at the time he handed over the cash?---Yes. 20 Well you can remember a few moments ago I think you told the Commission that all you could remember about the conversation was when he handed over the cash was that he was asking you to take the girl into the Four Seasons Hotel, book a room and hand over the key to Mr Medich? ---Yes. And thats all you could remember a few moments ago. Is that right?---(NO AUDIBLE REPLY) 30 I thought, a few moments a thats all you could remember of this conversation wasnt it?---I dont say specific because I cannot remember, but what I says to you is all was about and I cant recall (not transcribable) or less. See how many, how many times have you had meetings with investigators of ICAC?---Two times. Three times?---Two times. 40 Two times. And you were told that they were investigating something to do with Mr Macdonald. Isnt that right?---Can you repeat question, please? Yes. During the course of those two meetings you were told by the ICAC officers that they were, amongst other things, were investigating certain matters about Mr Macdonald?---As I understand youre saying I told them to investigate. But you understood - - -

10

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)

324T

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry Mr Hale, I dont think hes understood the question. MR HALE: No, Ill put it another way. You, you were asked to come in and meet with investigators twice. Is that correct?---(NO AUDIBLE REPLY) And of course you wanted to know why you were being asked to meet with these investigators didnt you?---Yes. And you were told by the investigators that, amongst other things, they were inquiring into certain matters about Mr Macdonald?---Yes. And you had known during the course of these investigations that it was, the investigation was about Mr Macdonald?---Yes. And dont you think the fact that you have been told by investigators on more than one occasion that the inquiry was about Mr Macdonald might have caused you to be mistaken in thinking Mr Gattellari said to you something about Mr Macdonald?---Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I have to say Mr Hale, Im not convinced that the witness understood that. MR HALE: I thought you might, I think - - THE COMMISSIONER: Im just telling you (not transcribable) 30 MR HALE: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Feel free to proceed but I really dont think he understood that. MR HALE: You have no clear recollection today whether Mr Gattellari ever mentioned Mr Macdonald do you?---Yes, I do, but what I say I dont hear if he says in the moment that he give me money, a minute before or a minute after or an hour before. 40 Thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, do you wan to take this - - MR TERRACINI: Yes, I just want to clarify one thing. Mr Kaminic, thats a Serbian name, I think isnt it?---Im not Serbian. Yes, I know but its a Serbian name isnt it?---No, its not Serbian name.

10

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (HALE)/(TERRACINI)

325T

Do you speak Serbian?---No. I dont speak Serbian. Whats your first language?---Bosnian. All right. Okay. Can I just clarify this, when you communicate with Gattellari, do you communicate in English?---Yes, I do. All right. He doesnt speak any Bosnian or Serbian?---No. 10 To your knowledge anyway?---No. All right. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Any further questions from anyone? Mr Watson, do you have any questions? MR WATSON: Mr Kaminic, how long, roughly speaking, did it take to drive from The Tuscany Restaurant to the Four Seasons Hotel?---Maybe 20 minutes or so. 20 Thank you. Thats the re-examination, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Kaminic, thank you for your evidence. Youre excused?---Thank you very much.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED

[10:54am]

30

MR HUDSON: Commissioner, may I be excused? THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly. MR HUDSON: Thank you. MR WATSON: Commissioner, may I call Lucky Gattellari. THE COMMISSIONER: Is Mr Gattellari represented?

40

MR WATSON: No. Weve spoken to lawyers who previously represented Mr Gattellari and told them that its on but, weve spoken to Mr Gattellari and he said that hes quite happy to proceed in the absence of lawyers. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, youre not legally represented here today? MR GATTELLARI: No, Im not.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

KAMINIC (TERRACINI)/(WATSON)

326T

THE COMMISSIONER: Are you happy to proceed without legal representation? MR GATTELLARI: Yes, I am. THE COMMISSIONER: I think Ive explained this to you on another occasion, but I am able to make an order to the effect that the evidence you give today and any documents you produce may not be used against you in criminal or civil or disciplinary proceedings. Do you remember that? 10 MR GATTELLARI: Yes, I do. THE COMMISSIONER: Do you wish me to make the same order? MR GATTELLARI: Not if it stands, stands the same, its okay. THE COMMISSIONER: No, I must make it again if you want it. Yes. MR GATTELLARI: Okay. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Pursuant to section 38 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by Mr Gattellari and all documents produced by him during the course of his evidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given or produced on objection and accordingly there is no need for the witness to make objection in respect of any particular answer given or document produced.

30

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY MR GATTELLARI AND ALL DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF HIS EVIDENCE AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND ACCORDINGLY THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE WITNESS TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT PRODUCED.

40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, I have previously explained to you and I will explain to you again that while that order gives you the protection that I have described, it does not give you protection against any evidence that you give that is not truthful. MR GATTELLARI: I understand.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

327T

THE COMMISSIONER: And that you may be prosecuted should you give evidence that is not truthful. MR GATTELLARI: I understand. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Very well. Do you wish to give your evidence under oath or do you wish to affirm the truth of your evidence? MR GATTELLARI: Whichever way. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want to swear on the Bible or not? MR GATTELLARI: That would be fine, yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

328T

<LUCKY GATTELLARI, sworn

[10.57am]

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson? MR WATSON: Are you known as Lucky Gattellari?---Yes, I am. I think you may have been named Fortunato Gattellari?---That was the name I, I had when I was little, yeah, it was changed to Lucky when I first arrived here. If you go way back into your youth, you believe you probably met Ron Medich when you were only a schoolboy?---Yeah. There was a family connection with the Medichs' and, and my family so we, although we were never friends at that time, did have occasion to meet, yes. But many many years later, and Im talking about 2006 or 2007, Mr Medich came back into your life?---He did. 20 And you met with him, you were in effect one of his tenants in a property? ---Yes. I rented a commercial premises from his, yes. And from discussions which you had with him in that capacity, a relationship grew?---It did. We became very close and spent a lot of time together. Ill come back to that. Do you remember a gentleman, Frank Moio?---I do. And were you introduced to Frank Moio by Ron Medich?---No. Frank Moio has been known to my family and myself for many years. I became reacquainted with Mr Moio when I first started working with Ron in Leichhardt. And so you would see Moio at The Tuscany Restaurant?---Correct. And would you go to that restaurant after you became close to Mr Medich most days?---We were there quite regularly, yes. Mr Medich was the developer of a project called the Norton Street Plaza? ---He actually owned the Norton Street Plaza where The Tuscany Restaurant was housed and his office was upstairs, so we spent quite a bit of time in that restaurant. Well, his meaning Mr Medichs office was upstairs?---Above, yes, above the restaurant. And then on the ground level was The Tuscany Restaurant itself?---Correct.

10

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

329T

And you would go there most days, would you, for lunch?---Pretty much. And then occasionally for dinner as well?---Quite regularly. Were you introduced to Ian Macdonald?---I dont believe I was ever officially introduced to Ian Macdonald, no. I did see Mr Macdonald come in on occasion but I wasnt ever introduced to him. And would you see Mr Moio talk to Mr Macdonald?---Yes. 10 And would you see Mr Medich talk to Mr Macdonald?---Yes. And did you see Mr Macdonald dining with Mr Medich?---I did. Once or more than once?---It was more than once. There was a business in which you were involved called IC Light and there were aspects of that which branched out into other areas of electrical supply work, is that so?---That is right. 20 Did you become interested in pursuing an interest in a company called Rivercorp Pty Limited?---Yes. And do you remember when this was?---Date-wise I dont, it was probably I was arrested in 2010 so it would have been some, it some time early, late 2008, early 2009. You were introduced to it werent you by a man named Dennis Wilson? ---Correct. 30 And he introduced you to Tony Rowe?---I met Tony Rowe and Sean Brosnan who were the proprietors of Rivercorp on that occasion, yes. And at that time was Mr Medich involved in the interests which you were following up?---Mr Medich was not actually directly involved in, in acquiring the companies, he was the, he financed most of the acquisitions. Well, when you went to Rowe and Brosnan you went to them to offer them finance did you?---They were in need of urgent funds for certain reasons and we - Ron Medich made the money available for us to lend it to them. Well, you would have had the upfront discussions with Brosnan and Rowe, would you?---Correct. Now, at the time were you in a position to offer them the finance they needed?---Only after they, they explained to me what they wanted and I went back and explained it to Ron and he agreed that we should give them the money.

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

330T

And, Mr Gattellari, I dont want to be too personal about it, but were you personally in a financial position to be advancing - - -?---No. - - - well, what literally became millions of dollars?---No, I wasnt. Were you a man of substantial means at that time?---I was just - no, I wasnt. 10 So you spoke to Mr Medich and finance was made available?---Correct. Over a period of time did your role in what might be called the Rivercorp interests become more intense?---Yes. Did you get involved in the management of it?---Not so much as the everyday running of the company, I employed different people to do certain management roles in the company but I took an overall view of the company. 20 Do you remember that a man named Kim Shipley became involved?---Yes, he did. How did he become involved?---Well, he, he virtually put together the programme that we wanted to achieve and he was appointed CEO of the group of companies that we put together. Well, were you dealing with Shipley on a more or less daily basis?---Just about every day, yes. 30 And this is in 2008 is it?---2008/2009, yeah. Mr Medich, was he still providing the funds?---Yes, he was. Were you reporting to him?---I was. And weve heard this discussion that you would be at the Tuscany Restaurant nearly every working day, would you see Mr Medich nearly every working day?---Yes. 40 Were you effectively working out of the offices at Leichhardt?---My main office was in Chipping Norton but when Ron Medich moved from the offices he had in the Tuscany building down to the new offices a little bit further down Norton Street, I acquired one of the offices and did some of my work over there as well. And so decisions which were being made in relation to Rivercorp and its related businesses, you were relaying these to Mr Medich?---Myself and Kim Shipley kept Mr Medich well-informed on everything that took place.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

331T

Im just going to ask you now, theres a suggestion that Mr Medich might give evidence that he never had anything to do with the ownership or with the management of those electrical companies. Do you agree with that? ---I agree that he had nothing to do with the management of them. I dont agree that he didnt have any ownership of them because for quite some time before the trouble seemed to start in other areas Ron Medich owned all the companies. 10 Well, youll need to explain a bit of that background Im sorry. What trouble in what areas?---Well, after the, after the Michael McGurk murder there was upheaval everywhere and all over the place and Ron was getting an awful lot of flack from his wife and it became obvious that he wanted to distance himself from all that was going on so the decision was made that all - - When you say obvious did he tell you that?---Yes. All right?---Yes. The decision was made that he would transfer all the companies in the group to a company called RIV Developments which I was the sole director of so at that stage he did that but he still took fixed and floating charges and securities over all the companies at that time. So although the companies might have for a while looked as though they were under your ownership, did you ever have true ownership of the companies?---No. Did you ever have the kind of money which would have permitted you personally to have acquired the ownership of these businesses?---No, I didnt. They were substantial businesses, I think Rivercorp at one stage had 300 employees of its own or within its group?---Correct. Did you have the means to - - -?---No I did not. So when it looked as though through RIV Developments, at least on paper that you were the own, do you tell the Commissioner that you were not the owner?---I was the owner on paper, but as I said Mr Medich had so many charges and securities over the companies that, you know, I didnt have much control over them. THE COMMISSIONER: What I dont understand Mr Gattellari, and perhaps you can explain, is that you said that Mr Medich, well I think you agreed that Mr Medich was not involved in the management of the, of the companies in the group?---Correct.

20

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

332T

But you also said that you and Mr Shipley reported to him and Im paraphrasing now, virtually on a daily basis as to the important things that were going on. Is that right or have I got it wrong?--- I wouldnt say, I wouldnt say on a daily basis, but Mr Shipley would give Ron and his accountants written documents relating to all the operations of the company. What did you do as regards to reporting?---My conversations with Ron were basically on a friendly basis, it was never really a business meeting or a business discussion as such. 10 So are you saying you never formally reported to Mr Medich what was going on?---No. Mr Medich would say, is everything all right? And I would say, according to Kim, everything is fine, so Im assuming that things are good. And thats about as far as the conversations with Ron went. So the impression Im now getting is that you really did not ever report matters of detail concerning the companies to Mr Medich?---Personally, no. MR WATSON: Were you the detail man?---I was, I was probably the guy that kept the whole operation running together. Was Shipley more in the nature of a detail man?---Shipley did all the, the, ticked the Ts and dotted the Is. He did all the due diligence on the companies before we acquired them. He, he did tall the financial side of things. He basically did all the running of it. And if there were strategic decisions to be made, high level management decisions, would they have to be run past Mr Medich for his approval? ---Yes. 30 So it would be wrong to say that you werent reporting to him or that he had no role in management matters, its more that he did it at a very high level Is that it?---Well he never had daily, daily management problems. He didnt, he didnt decide what job would be done today or what, what job were going to attend to. But if we needed to invest more money or required more funds to acquire another company, it would always be discussed with Ron. He would consider it and then he would make his decision. 40 And he had the right of veto?---Sorry? He had the right of veto?---Yes. He had the final say?---Absolutely. Hed say yes or no and you would do it?---Yes.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

333T

And if he directed you that the company had to do something, would you obey his direction?---Every time. And was that common that he would involve himself of this kind of high level management decision making?---No, not really. No, just on certain matters, his main decision was if we required extra funds for certain acquisitions or expansions, if we were to approach him for the extra funds and he would want to know the full details. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Can you give us examples of this?---Well if we were tendering for a large job and we need funds upfront to fund the materials it required, we may have needed two, three, four hundred thousand dollars, we would approach him for those funds. Are you able to today to identify any such deals - - -?---Oh - - - - - where he, he was asked for his views and for the money?---Not in, not in detail, no. 20 Well can you give us any name?---Well we ordered, at one stage we ordered about $1.2 million worth of light fittings from China and we required a substantial deposit upfront to acquire these cause they were going to a large manufacturing construction in Melbourne. And he supplied the funds for the deposit on the lights. After discussion or - - -?---After discussion with Kim Shipley and myself. All right. 30 MR WATSON: Now do you remember some financial arrangement which was entered into with Frank Moio?---Yes. And how did that come about?---Frank Moio made certain statements about being able to acquire large contracts from different high-ranking officials in big companies and he virtually convinced Ron, Ron Medich and myself that he could do this and we employed him. When you say you employed him, well, first if I go back. I take it these representations are made by Mr Moio not once but over several occasions? ---Mr Moio always made it know to everybody that he had many connections in the building industry and he could be a big help for acquiring contracts. And so he said this to you not once, but more than once?---Yes. All the time, by the sounds of it?---He kept saying it.

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

334T

Mr Gattellari, as a result of that, in conversation with Medich did you discuss putting Moio on a regular payment?---Yes. And this was a conversation you had with Mr Medich?---Correct. And who made the decision whether to go ahead or not?---Well, I think it was just generally agreed, I dont think theres anyone made a strict decision, we both agreed that we would give it a go. 10 Well, lets put it this way. Was it your money to give away?---No, it wasnt. And so who had to give the go-ahead of Moio was to go on the payroll? ---Well, if Ron said no, it wouldnt happen. And between the two of you, you discussed it and agreed that Ron would go on the payroll. Is that so?---That Frank- - Sorry?---Yes. 20 Frank would go on the payroll?---Yes. And did you enter into a kind of agreement, some kind of written agreement with Mr Moio reflecting those arrangements?---Yes, we did. Well, could the witness be shown page 495. If youre shown the foot of it I think youll see that theres a signature. Is that yours?---Oh, sorry. Can you see on the screen?---Yes, it is. 30 And is that Mr Moios?---Yes, it is. And did you cause this document to be typed up?---Mr Moio actually gave me a version of the document that he wanted signed, which I didnt agree with, and then we had one done in his behalf. Whos we?---I had it done through the office. Right. So you got it retyped?---Yes. 40 And so this was put to Mr Moio and he signed it?---Yes. And it seems to suggest that Moio was going to be paid $3,000 per week. Do you see that?---Yes. And it goes on to qualify that by saying, In whatever way requested by Frank. Do you see that?---Yep.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

335T

Did Frank request that the money be paid to him a particular way?---Yes, he did. What did Mr Moio say?---Mr Moio wanted part of the money paid as a wage to his son-in-law where tax would be taken out and the balance of the funds would be paid to him in cash weekly. And did you do that?---I did. 10 Weve had some evidence from Mr Shipley who suggests that he was told at some stage or another by both you and Mr Medich that Moios son-in-law was to go on the payroll?---Correct. Did you tell Shipley something along those lines?---I told Kim that, as I said, part, part of the money would be paid to his son-in-law and that would go on the books and the balance would be off the record and paid to Frank Moio. In respect of the first part which was on the books, weve got evidence that Mr Pizzati, the son-in-law of Mr Moio, was paid a sum slightly in excess of $1,500 per week netted tax, week in week out for some long period of time? ---Correct. Is that the payment to which you refer?---That sounds like it, yes. Did Mr Pizzati ever do so much as one minutes work for any of the Rivercorp companies?---No, he didnt. And in respect of the other payments which were to be made to Moio, were any such payments made?---Yes. By whom?---By me. To whom?---To Frank Moio. How?---In cash. In envelopes or how was it passed over?---In an envelope he would get the balance of the money, whatever it was, two thousand, three thousand, whatever it was a week, he would get it in an envelope when I attended the restaurant. And did you ever discuss these payments being made to the son-in-law, Pizzati, with Medich?---I did. Did Medich talk about them?---Ah- - -

20

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

336T

Did he approve them, for example?---Well, he didnt say, yes, thats good, or no, thats bad, he just, I just explained Frank Moios getting his money. And did you report to Medich on the cash payments which were being given - - -?---Yes. - - -directly to Moio?---Yes. Who was giving you the money which was being paid as cash to Moio? ---The money would sometimes come from cash that I was holding on behalf of Ron myself or it would come from one of the companies. Kim Shipley would cash a cheque and hand me the funds. Commissioner, I tender the agreement made on 9 February, 2009, between Mr Gattellari and Mr Moio. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Exhibit 15 is the agreement between Mr Gattellari and Mr Moio of 9 February, 2009. 20 #EXHIBIT 15 - AGREEMENT BETWEEN MR GATTELLARI & MR MOIO DATED 9 FEBRUARY 2009

10

MR WATSON: Well, weve got payments made to Pizzati and payments made to Moio. Did Moio tell you what it was he was going to do for this money?---Yes. What did he tell you?---Frank Moio was very very up front at saying that he would be able to acquire large, large electrical contracts from many different major companies. Wasnt, sorry, I withdraw that. Did he ever mention politicians?---Not to me. Did he ever mention Ian Macdonald?---I was present on many occasions when Ian Macdonald was discussed between Frank Moio and Ron Medich. Were you involved in those discussions or can you now recall anything that you overheard the two of them saying?---I was not involved in any way that I had any say what would or wouldnt happen, I was just there at the time the conversation took place. And I was there at the time the conversation took place to organise this dinner for the meeting with some high-ranking officials from Country Energy. I notice the time, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, well adjourn for 15 minutes.

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

337T

SHORT ADJOURNMENT

[11.16am]

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson. MR WATSON: Thank you. Mr Gattellari, we have some evidence that there was a meeting between Ron Medich, Ian Macdonald and a gentleman named George Maltabarow, who was the Managing Director of EnergyAustralia. Mr Gattellari, do you know of that meeting or anything about it?---I do not. If I was to tell you that this was a meeting which occurred on 1 June, 2009 at The Tuscany Restaurant, does that help you at all?---No, I still, I dont know anything about that meeting. Well weve got a little bit of evidence that Mr Maltabarow was seated at a table with Mr Macdonald. Mr Medich approached with another man who had a full head of hair, thats as much evidence, description we have about him, it wasnt you I take it?---It wasnt me. Did you ever hear from Mr Medich about a meeting that he had with a - - THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry Mr Watson, Mr Terracini - - MR TERRACINI: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: - - - this evidence may be of importance to you and you werent here. I want to tell you what it is. I think just to summarise it, Mr Gattellari says he does not know of a meeting involving Mr Medich, Mr Macdonald and Mr Maltabarow. MR TERRACINI: Thank you, Commissioner. MR WATSON: Were you ever told anything by Mr Medich of a meeting that he had with a man named Maltabarow or a man who came from EnergyAustralia?---Not to my recollection, no. 40 None of this rings a bell with you?---No, it doesnt. Then well move on. I now want to ask you about an event which culminated on 15 July, 2009, and I suspect the first thing youre going to say is youre no good with dates?---Correct. But its a night which culminated with a girl named Tiffanie going to the Four Seasons Hotel. Does that help you?---I remember the night, yes.

10

20

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

338T

Now there was a build up to that night. Is that so?---Yes, there was. And what I would like is if the witness could be shown page 733. What youve got on the screen there with you Mr Gattellari - - -?---Yes. - - - is, is a record weve been able to collect, I want you to assume for the moment that its a fair record of telephone calls from or between key players on dates close to 15 July, 2009. Will you just assume that for the purpose of my questions?---I accept that, yes. 10 Well what we can see is that there were some calls made just before lunch on Sunday, 12 July, 2009, Moio to Kaminic, then Gattellari to Moio. Youll see that second call occurred at 12.44pm on that Sunday?---Yes. Now Mr Gattellari, I dont suppose you recall what the purpose was of calling Mr Moio on that date?---Not the exact purpose, but it would have been in relation to the deal that was going, being organised with Country Energy. 20 Well if we go on youll see more detail, theres a call by Mr Medich then to Mr Moio and by Mr Macdonald to Mr Moio, all these occurring pretty close in time. Do you see that?---Yes, I do. Mr Medich to you and then theres Mr Medich to a person only named as Female 1. Now I want you to assume that we have some records which identify females with Asian names and weve at the moment kept them anonymous by giving them merely the title Female and a number. Do you see that?---Yes, I do. 30 Now youll see that theres a call by you at 2.42pm to Mr Kaminic?---Yes. And then theres a string of calls, Gattellari to Female 2, Gattellari to Female 3. Just show the next page, Gattellari to Female 4 and Female 1 and Female 5 and Female 1 again. And youll see that theyre mainly occurring in the afternoon and early evening of Sunday, 12 July?---Yes. Now seeing that record, does that help your recollection at all as to why you were making these calls?---Yes, I - - 40 Just assume Im right that these are Asian females?---They are. Correct. Look the calls were being made in relation to putting together a selection of different young ladies to appear at The Tuscany Restaurant on a particular night when the dinner was being taking place. Right. Now why were you organising it? Had somebody asked you to do that?---I was asked to do that by Ron Medich. Did Ron Medich telephone you to ask you this or did you seek - - -?---Its

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

339T

quite possible that Ron and I discussed the, the female situation even before the phone calls were made, once we knew that the dinner was going to take place. The phone call I think were just to confirm or keep up to date as what was happening. Well youll see that on 12 July there was a call by Mr Medich to you and at 12.51pm. Do you see that? Its on, do you see that now, 12.51?---Yes, yes. And its soon after that that the calls to the ladies commence?---I think the call was probably to acknowledge that the dinner was going to take place and that I should line up the ladies. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, I get the impression, and please correct me if Im wrong, that you cant specifically recollect these calls, but you are working out from looking at this schedule what must have happened. Is that right?---That is correct. I spent, I spent so many phone calls with Ron day after day, you know, Id receive or make and discuss matters with Ron on the telephone numbers of times during the day. 20 I understand?---Im just putting it together as to how it fits in. That would be what we were discussing. THE COMMISSIONER: I just want to get clarity on that?---Yep. Sure. MR WATSON: Well, I think you do have a general recollection however of organising young females for the night at The Tuscany Restaurant? ---Yes, I do. And there seemed to be more than one girl. Why did you need more than one girl?---My instructions were to have a selection of girls so that the person that they wanted to be entertained would have a selection, a choice as to who he wanted. Now, who gave you that instruction?---Ron Medich. And did he tell you who the person was who wanted- - -?---Yes, he did. Who was it?---Ian Macdonald. 40 He told you that you were to put together a collection of females so that Macdonald could take his pick amongst them?---Correct. And you did just that?---I did. You telephoned them and you asked them to be there at the restaurant that night?---I telephoned them and told them to look as glamorous as they could and to appear that night at the restaurant, yes.

10

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

340T

Weve got some evidence that one of the young ladies was known by the name, Tiffanie. Do you remember Tiffanie?---Not, not specifically but I do, I do remember the name, yes. And weve got some evidence that Tiffanie said that you in fact asked her, that is you asked Tiffanie, to ring one of Tiffanies friends, Cindy, and bring her along. Do you remember something along those lines?---Yes, I do. Did you know before the night of 15 July that executives of Country Energy were going to be at The Tuscany Restaurant?---Yes, I did. And who told you that?---I was told that by Ron Medich, that hed organised for some high officials from Country Energy to attend a dinner at Tuscany so that himself and Kim Shipley could discuss possible contracts that would be obtained. Did you make contact with Kim Shipley?---I spoke to Kim Shipley a number of times, yes. 20 In respect of this particular even on 15 July?---Correct, yes. If you, if the witness is shown page 735, and if I draw your attention to a call that we have on 15 July, 2009 at 3.58pm. Do you see that?---Yes, I do. Weve got some evidence from Mr Shipley that you rang him. He, he had already gone home, but you rang him on the afternoon of 15 July. Thats what he told us?---Ah hmm. Does that accord with your recollection?---It could be. 30 And, and all this time you knew that the Country Energy people were going to be there?---And so did Kim Shipley. And what did Medich tell you as to the purpose, why hed put them there at the restaurant on that night?---Specifically to, for us to tender or to put forward our proposal that we needed some large electrical contracts and they could be of some help. Commissioner, I tender pages 733 through to 735. Theyve been telephone calls. If needs be, I can call some evidence to prove how those records are compiled. If the others wish that document to be marked pending the supply of that evidence Im happy for it to be marked. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, is there, is there any objection to- - MR HALE: I, I, my part, I dont object. MR TERRACINI: Nor do I.

10

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

341T

THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. The schedule of telephone calls, pages 733 to 735 is Exhibit 16.

#EXHIBIT 16 - SCHEDULE OF TELEPHONE CALLS FOR MAIN EVENTS IN JULY 2009

10

MR WATSON: Well, you organised the young women to be there?---Yes. And did they turn up?---Yes, they did. Do you remember this evening being at The Tuscany Restaurant?---I do. And where were you seated, or were you dining there that night?---Yes, I was, myself and Senad Kaminic was with me. We sat at the table with the girls, which was probably, I dont know, from here to the next table down away from where Ron Medich was having dinner with the guests.

20 Five metres or so?---Yep. And so at your table, who was at it? You said Kaminic and yourself. Who apart from that? Senad, myself, I think Cindy was there, Kathy, Jessie, may I refer to my book? Your book?---My little diary. Youve got a diary entry of this have you?---Ive just got the names of who were there that night. Well - - THE COMMISSIONER: Is that a contemporaneous diary or is it a note that youre just making now, have made recently?---No, this was a note I, I just ticked off the names that were going to be there that I made when I knew this was going to take place. MR WATSON: You knew what going to take place, the meeting with Country Energy?---No, no, no. When I, Ive been asked this question many times, who were the girls that were there. Yes?---So I went through in my diary and looked at the names and thought, and worked out who actually were there that night. I see. So its something that you have reconstructed by youve used primary records?---Its a diary thats been there, Ive had it all the time, its - - -

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

342T

Well, youre looking at me as though I should know that and youre probably right but I dont. But tell us who were the girls that were there that night?---Oh, there was Annie, Cindy, Cathy and Tiffanie. THE COMMISSIONER: I think youd better show Mr Watson the diary. MR WATSON: Theyre the girls. Apart from yourself and Kaminic - - -? ---Correct. 10 - - - were there any other males at the table?---No. Do you remember whether Medich was at your table at any time during the night?---No, Ron came over for a short time, just had a couple of words with me just saying is everything okay and the girls know what theyve got to do, I said yes, everythings fine, no worries, let me know what you want to do. During the night did you see where Shipley was seated?---I dont know exactly where he was seated, I think Kim had his back to me, he was sitting in one of the positions there with the two Country Energy people, Frank Moio, Mr Macdonald and Ron Medich. In any event, you saw Medich sitting at the table with Macdonald?---Yes. And you saw the people who - you wouldnt have known them but you understood - - -?---Yes. - - - were Country Energy - - -?---Yes. 30 - - - executives. Later during the evening was something communicated to you about the girls?---Ron Medich came to my table and said that hed made his choice and he pointed to Tiffanie. I take it (not transcribable) doesnt come over with a megaphone but what happens? Does Mr Medich whisper in your ear or - - -?---He just came over and quietly said to me that hes, hes made his choice. Who, who was he?---Well, he said he but I knew he was referring to Ian Macdonald. 40 How did you know that? From earlier conversations?---Wed had this discussion a number of times in regards to what the girls were for. And so he said that he had made his choice?---Correct. Did he indicate to you who the choice was?---He pointed to Tiffanie - - Yes?--- - - - and said that, to take care of the rest of the arrangements.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

343T

And so having identified Tiffanie what did you then do?---I had a chat to Senad, explained to him what he had to do. What did you say to Senad?---I said to Senad that hes got to take Tiffanie to the Four Seasons, go in and book a room, take Tiffanie up, give her one of the keys, wait downstairs with the second key and give the second key to Ian Macdonald when he arrives. 10 And did you then see Senad leave the table?---Not instantly but a little time, some time after that, yes, he left the table with Tiffanie and went off. Did you have a word with Tiffanie at all before she left?---Yes, I said to Tiffanie that hes very important to us and he should be looked after the best she could. Did you say anything to her about money?---Money wasnt discussed with Tiffanie, no. 20 And so at some stage Tiffanie and Kaminic depart?---Correct. You remained at the Tuscany?---I did. At some time did you see Macdonald depart?---I dont remember exactly when he departed, I dont, I dont remember the, I didnt see him depart nor who he departed with, no. Right. You left yourself and you went somewhere?---Yes. Myself, Kim Shipley and the balance of the girls all went back to Ron Medichs house. 30 Now, after the event did you make contact with Tiffanie to pay her or something along those lines?---I spoke to Tiffanie after the event, yes. And how did you do that? Face to face or by phone?---Look, I spoke to her on the phone I think. And did you somehow or another make a payment to her?---Yes. Im not sure whether I gave her the money direct or whether I gave it to Cindy to give to her. 40 And do you remember how much money was involved?---I dont. Theyre the questions I have for Mr Gattellari. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Hale? THE WITNESS: Can I have my diary back?

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (WATSON)

344T

MR WATSON: Yes. Other people may wish to look at it, Im not sure. MR HALE: Mr Gattellari, my names Hale and I appear for Mr Macdonald. Mr Gattellari, you dont put yourself forward as an honest man, do you?---I dont understand the question. What about that question dont you understand? Im asking you do you put yourself forward as an honest man?---Yes, I do. 10 Yes. Lets just explore that for a moment. You are a person who will do almost anything to advance what you consider to be in your best interests. Would you agree with that?---Anything within reason. And does conspiring to murder somebody come within within reason? THE COMMISSIONER: No, I wont allow that. MR HALE: All right. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: I dont see what that has to do with this inquiry. You can canvass his credibility, his honesty, but Im not going to allow that. MR HALE: Thats going to put us at a great disadvantage. THE COMMISSIONER: Why is that Mr Hale? MR HALE: Well I dont want to say, I dont know much latitude - - THE COMMISSIONER: I dont understand. I said you could canvass his credibility. MR HALE: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Thats an issue. Whether Mr Gattellari is guilty of some other offence with which this Commission is not investigating is not a relevant matter. MR HALE: Well on one view that somebody, he is so unscrupulous to involve himself with that which I understand he has admitted. He is maybe so unscrupulous as to tell lies for the purpose of advancing (not transcribable) THE COMMISSIONER: I will not allow any questions of Mr Medich when he gives evidence in relation to his criminal offence. And I will not allow any questions relating to Mr Gattellari concerning his criminal, concerning the charge made against him of murder and related charges. Thats my ruling.

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

345T

MR HALE: Will Commissioner, you permit me to ask questions as to the circumstances in which he made contact with ICAC? THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR HALE: You, when did you first have contact with ICAC?---They approached me. And you were in prison at the time?---I was. 10 Did you ever let it be known to, did you cause, could I suggest to you that you had made allegations about Mr Macdonald when you were in prison? ---I made no allegations about anybody. I merely explained what a certain amount of money meant in the diary that I had. Could I just ask this question and please dont immediately answer it because I want to see whether I can, whether it conflicts with the Commissioners ruling. What I wish to suggest to you that you have made these allegations in support of what you think may assist you in any sentence that you may receive in the trial thats forthcoming? THE COMMISSIONER: Ill allow that, yes. THE WITNESS: As I explained to you before I made no allegations against anybody. I never brought Mr Macdonald up in my discussions. I was approached after I made my statements by ICAC asking me questions about certain comments that were made in my statement and they brought up the allegation, not me. 30 MR HALE: How many statements have you, how many times have you met with ICAC Commissioners?---Oh, , or, . THE COMMISSIONER: And I think you should, Mr Hale - - MR HALE: Im sorry, no, I withdraw that question, yes. No, I understand why youre concerned. Can I put this another way. Should I understand your answer to be that you have met with ICAC investigators , or, times?---Correct. 40 Yes. And has there also been a private inquiry before this Commission which you have attended before the Commissioner?---Do you mean here? Yes?---Yes. And in those , or, meetings with investigators can you, can you recall when the , one was?---No, I cant.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

346T

Can you remember how long it took? Over what period the interview took place?---I think, actually I think the , time I met with ICAC was when I was being interviewed by the police at the Crime Commission building. I think they came in and spoke to me for 20 minutes, half an hour, just off - That was the , one. When was the ,one?---I dont know.

Can you remember how long it was?---Not exactly, no. 10 What about the ,one?---No, I dont.

You cant remember how long that was?---No. Can you remember the, remember the names of anybody who was present on that occasion?---Well the only one I remember is Wayne Smith. What about the fourth one, can you remember the AUDIBLE REPLY) 20 When was that?---I have no idea. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale, Im very uneasy about this questioning because it doesnt necessarily follow that those meetings had anything to do with this inquiry. MR HALE: Well I cant, youll agree Commissioner (not transcribable) that I do not have. 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. And it is, I do not intend to say anything more about that, but in fairness to you, you should not draw - - MR HALE: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: - - - any inference as to what Im going to find because he had , meetings with inspectors, because I know and you do not know what those meetings were about. MR HALE: Well could I just continue - - 40 THE COMMISSIONER: But let us put it this way, at least , and probably at least ,were about this matter. But it doesnt necessarily follow that others were. MR HALE: So I still might just pursue that, the final, you cannot remember when the , meeting took place?---I dont remember the dates any of the meetings place nor how long they took. ,one?---(NO

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

347T

Now what I wish to suggest to you Mr Gattellari, was that it was only shortly before the meeting of 15 July that you understood that Mr Macdonald was to dine with certain people from, from Country Energy that day, that day?---Some time before that day, yeah. Well it was actually on that day wasnt it?---No, it wasnt on that day at all. And wasnt it the case that as soon as you found out about it you contacted Mr Shipley?---No. I contacted Mr Shipley because we had assumed at the time that he may not be needed and after discussions with Ron Medich we decided that itd be a good idea if Kim Shipley did attend the dinner and thats why I rang Mr Shipley. And who was it that told you that somebody from Country Energy was attending?---Ron Medich. And when do you say he told you that?---The discussion took place on days before the meeting. 20 And did he say that he had been told this by Frank Moio?---He told me that Frank Moio had organised with Ian Macdonald to arrange for some people from Country Energy to attend for a dinner at The Tuscany where contracts would be discussed. And you say do you that you were first told about this Country Energy meeting some time on Sunday, 12 July - - -?---Thats not what I said. THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Im sorry to interrupt. Im making a suppression order about the references I made to the number of times that the private, that the ICAC investigators met with Mr Gattellari. There should be no publication of that material and no person should say anything to anyone else about that information that I was forced to give to Mr Hale.

10

30

SUPPRESSION ORDER ABOUT THE REFERENCES I MADE TO THE NUMBER OF TIMES THAT THE ICAC INVESTIGATORS MET WITH MR GATTELLARI

40

MR HALE: I do apologise if it caused some difficulty. THE COMMISSIONER: No, its not your fault, Mr Hale. MR HALE: Do you say that you first learnt about the Country Energy meeting on Sunday, 12 July?---No, I dont.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

348T

Well when do you say you first heard about it?---I said we discussed it days before that day. It was on that Sunday that I rang around to organise the girls. And you rang Cindy did you?---I didnt ring Cindy, no. Did you, did you ring Tiffanie?---I spoke to Tiffanie, yes. And when do you say you rang Tiffanie, on the Sunday?---It would have been on the Sunday I imagine, yes. Now, the diary that youve just referred to and produced, is it the case that do you say that at none of the meetings that you have had with ICAC officers you - sorry, Ill start again. Do you say that at the meetings with the ICAC officers you did not provide or refer to that diary?---I did not. Now, on the, on July 15, that is the night of the dinner what, what time during the night do you say that Mr Medich came over to you and said that Mr Macdonald had made his choice?---Some time between 6.00pm and 9.30 or 9 oclock PM. I have no idea what time it was. So you have, you have, so you have absolutely no idea whether it was 6 oclock at night or 9.00, 9.30pm do you say?---It was not the most devastating point in my life where I took a look at my watch and decided I should remember what time Rons approached me to give me this information. You see, might I suggest to you that the reason you just dont recall the time is because the conversation simply did not happen?---You may suggest it but its not true. Now, during the course - can you recall what time it was that Mr Macdonald left the restaurant that night?---No, I cant. Can you recall the time at which these people from Country Energy left the restaurant?---I cannot. Can you recall what time Mr Macdonald arrived at the restaurant?---No, I cant. 40 Can you recall what time the people from Country Energy arrived at the restaurant?---I cannot. Can you recall what time Mr Medich went over to their table?---All I can tell you is that all these things took place between 6.00pm and some time during the evening. I did not keep track of every moment, of every action that took place that night on my watch.

10

20

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

349T

So is this the case: that you were organising for the purpose of Mr Macdonald a series of girls, brought them to the restaurant in order that Mr Macdonald might take his pick yet you have absolutely no idea of when anybody arrived that time?---Times are not - - THE COMMISSIONER: Thats not what he said. He said they arrived at 6 oclock and went, and then at some time from that point onwards. He did not say that he had no idea. 10 MR HALE: You had no idea between the period of time of 6 o'clock in the evening and about 9.30, you had absolutely no idea of what happened?---I did not take specific view or time records of what happened and when it happened. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, are you able to say, give estimates of how long afterwards or are you, are you not?---Commissioner - - Would you be guessing?--- - - - about Mr Medich, Mr Medich would have come to my table possibly after about an hour and a half that they were sitting at the table having dinner, he would have come over and had a chat to me, but as I said, I did not look at the watch or I just wasnt aware of it. I understand that, Im - - -?---And then, and then it was some time after that I asked Senad to take the young lady to the Four Seasons. I cannot remember the exact times. No. But Im asking you whether you can give approximate estimates? ---Yeah, about an hour and a half after they started their dinner Mr Medich came to me and, and told me which, which Mr Macdonald had chosen. 30 MR HALE: Do you recall it - you recall it to be about an hour and a half after - - -?---About, about an hour and a half. And not so long ago you said - - THE COMMISSIONER: After they started the dinner. MR HALE: After they started the dinner, and just a few moments ago you said you had no idea of what time between about 6.00 and 9.30?---I mentioned it - - THE COMMISSIONER: (not transcribable) about the exact time, Mr Hale. MR HALE: Well, that perhaps is a matter Ill (not transcribable) THE COMMISSIONER: And its no good frowning at me, thats my ruling.

20

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

350T

MR HALE: Oh, no, no, Im not - - THE COMMISSIONER: Im talking to your junior. MR HALE: Im not, I dont think I was frowning. THE COMMISSIONER: No, you were not. MR HALE: No. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Someone else was. MR HALE: You see, what I suggest to you is that you have, you often have - you are often accompanied by numbers of Asian girls, arent you?---Only if theres a specific reason for it. And its not unusual for you to be dining at the Tuscany Restaurant with a number of Asian girls?---No, its not. 20 Now, what I suggest to you is that at some stage during the night Mr Medich said to you that Mr Macdonald wanted a massage at the Four Seasons Hotel?---You may say it but its not true. You say Mr Medich never said anything like that?---Never mentioned massage, no. And what I suggest to you is that you then made the arrangements to have Tiffanie brought to the Four Seasons Hotel because Mr Medich had mentioned the name of that hotel?---Definitely not. 30 And what I suggest to you, that it was your plan that evening to put Mr Macdonald in a compromising position in order that you might take advantage of it at some later stage?---Absolutely not. And you are, are you not, involved in prostitution?---I am not. Did you - were you looking during the course of the evening, were you looking over at the table where Mr Macdonald was?---I glanced at it a few times. 40 Well, were you observing it? Watching what was going on?---No, I wasnt. You understood this meeting with Country Energy was to be to the advantage of your company?---I did. And nonetheless you didnt, you only looked over from time to time, you didnt seek to observe what was taking place?---Well, looking at the table

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)

351T

wasnt going to give me any more information or anything that I could use so why would I bother? And the table at which you were seated was near the street, near Norton Street?---About the middle of the restaurant. Well, the, the - if I might put it, the western end of the table, the table was running at right angles to the, to Norton Street?---Well, oh, youve got me thinking now, its been a long time since Ive been there but we were about the middle of the restaurant and Norton Street would have been maybe 10, 15 metres to the left of where we were sitting and Ron Medichs table was closer to the bar. Well, it was a table near the bar but behind what was a large pillar?---Part of the table was, yes. And your table was close to the, the extremity of the restaurant?---My table was in full view of where Mr Macdonald was sitting for the purpose that he could take his, make his choice. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini. MR TERRACINI: Thank you. Youre in custody at the moment, dont tell us where but youre in custody?---Yes, I am. THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, excuse me. Mr Terracini represents Mr Medich?---Yes. 30 MR TERRACINI: Thank you, Commissioner. Youre in custody at the moment?---I am. And youre awaiting sentence which will be some considerable time from today?---I have no idea when but I am awaiting sentence. And you know what a letter of comfort is, dont you?---I do. 40 And youve been told, Id suggest to you, that youll receive a letter - - THE COMMISSIONER: Have you any instructions about this, Mr Terracini? MR TERRACINI: (not transcribable) THE COMMISSIONER: Well, on what basis do you put this?

10

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (HALE)/(TERRACINI)

352T

MR TERRACINI: That he will receive a letter of comfort for providing assistance (not transcribable) THE COMMISSIONER: Well, you can put to him that he hopes that. MR TERRACINI: You hope to receive a letter of, of comfort. THE COMMISSIONER: I can tell you now that nothing has been promised to Mr Gattellari if thats what youre trying to find out. 10 MR TERRACINI: Its not about what the Commissions going to promise him. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, youve asked him that. MR TERRACINI: He would have been told by the officer in charge of his case, not the Commission (not transcribable). THE COMMISSIONER: You may ask that question. 20 MR TERRACINI: Yes. And you hope to receive a reduction in your sentence as a result of you helping in a general sense investigative bodies or government departments associated with the pursuit of (not transcribable)? ---I was told not to have too much hope about what letters of comfort mean, not to give too much credence to them. But you certainly had a conversation with senior police about that?---In regards to my other matter, yes, not in regards to this matter. 30 How was it then, because we have to be somewhat precise, we know you made statement to the ICAC, put them to one side, when you were asked questions by Mr Hale about how you came to provide information to the ICAC, were you talking about there was information in one of your police statements that theyd become aware of or what?---There was information in one of my diaries. All right. Well, do we take it that thats plural, theres more than one diary that you have?---Yes, yes, there is. 40 Have you ever produced any of these diaries to anyone for inspection that might be a police officer or someone assisting the Commission?---The police have all my diaries. What about the Commission though, have you ever produced these diaries to the Commission?---Not personally, no. All right. Well, in the diary that you have on your person now, in addition to the names of these women in it, does it have other information associated

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

353T

with events and times and dates of for instance meetings with Mr Medich or politicians or things like that?---No, because this is this years diary and Ive been in gaol all this year. All right. Well, youve said categorically that youre not involved in prostitution?---No, Im not. Did the young women that you apparently provided on occasion for others, did they get paid?---They did. 10 And did they get paid by you?---Sometimes. And so far as you were concerned, did you keep any records of your payments?---No. Do you know a woman by the name of Helen who assisted you in engaging Tiffanie?---I know Helen, yes. All right. Well, does she run some kind of agency or how did you get onto her?---Helen ran a massage parlour that I used to attend and I became friends with her. All right. Well, in terms of your relationship with Mr Moio, can you just have a look at Exhibit 15, please. It will be a photocopy of this document. THE COMMISSIONER: Can we bring that up, please. MR TERRACINI: Now, there are two signatures on the document, youd agree with that?---Yes. 30 Above the typewritten words, Lucky Gattellari, theres a signature. Is that your signature?---Yes, it is. And above the typed words, Frank Moio, to your knowledge is that Mr Moios signature?---To my knowledge it is, yes. And thats the extent of the signatures?---Yes. Did you draft this agreement yourself?---As I said, this was a portion of a draft copy that Mr Moio presented to us to sign which we disagreed, took portions of it, put it on a sheet of paper, this one, and had that signed, yes. Well, when you use the word we, youre the only one that signed (not transcribable)?---Yes, Im the only one who signed it. Did you look at the document carefully to see what was required in terms of what he was being paid for?---Yes.

20

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

354T

It seems on its face to be quite a significant sum of money, doesnt it, per week, for basically just doing some introductions?---No. Mr Moio was to do more than just introductions. Mr Moio virtually verbally, to Mr Medich mainly, guaranteed huge contracts from different building companies. Can you tell us any contract that he did obtain for Mr Medich?---None. Did Mr Medich sign this document?---No, he did not. 10 All right. Have you got any emails, documents, anything in writing indicating that Mr Medich authorised you to take part in this agreement with Mr Moio?---Not specifically with Mr Moio, but I do have a letter somewhere on record somewhere where he does authorise me to deal on his behalf. No. Anything to do with Mr Moio?---No. And we can safely assume that these conversations that you claim that you had with Mr Medich about arranging for young women to be at the restaurant and things of that kind and Mr Macdonald making a choice, theres no record of all that, its just your word?---No written record, no. Just your word?---Mine and others. Well, can you tell us then who was present that overheard Mr Medich saying that Mr Macdonald had made his choice, or words like that? ---No. Anybody present when Mr Medich allegedly asked you to arrange for your women to be there on the night?---I think Mr Kaminic might have been there that time. How certain are you of that?---Sorry? How certain are you of that?---Well, considering Mr Kaminic spent, was with me just about all the time, Im quite, quite comfortable he might have been there. All right. Well, I want you to assume that hes given evidence here today, have you got any specific memory of Mr Kaminic being present?---No, I dont. Now, you would agree that if anybody was going to pay Cindy for, Im sorry, Tiffanie, if Tiffanie was to be paid by anyone for attending the Four Seasons Hotel, it would have been you?---Not always.

20

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

355T

No, on this occasion, on this night, the only one that she would look to for payment was from you. Correct?---She would have held me responsible for the payment, yes. Yes. And did you provide a sum of money to Mr Kaminic to pay for the accommodation?---I did. And do you recall that it was round about $400 in cash?---I dont remember exactly but I think it might have been $400, yes. 10 And did you in fact give him the money?---Yes, I did. THE COMMISSIONER: Give who? MR TERRACINI: Give Kaminic the money?---Yes, I did. And did you require of him some kind of accounting back to you as to whether that was enough or it had fallen short or anything like that for the accommodation?---No. Im quite sure that Senad would have told me if it was short. Right. THE COMMISSIONER: Where did the money come from?---Out of my pocket. It would have been money, company money that, as I said, we held a fair sum of cash at any one time in my safe at work. When you say company money, what company?---The RIV Group. 30 MR TERRACINI: Which company of the RIV Group?---I couldnt tell you. Youd agree with us, you just dont go and take money out of the companys funds without at least knowing where its from?---I would, sorry? You just dont take money, cash money out of a safe and not then account to the appropriate corporate structure, do you?---Well, I didnt have to account to an appropriate corporate structure cause the person that owned the companies and funded the companies knew all about it. Did he?---Yes. All right. Well, can you recall telling him that this accommodation costs $400?---I didnt have to. When did you cease to be a director of Rivercorp?---I was never a director of Rivercorp.

20

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

356T

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Mr Terracini. I just want to clarify something. When you say he knew all about it, what did you mean, about what?---He knew that I was paying the girl to go out there that night for Mr Macdonald. How did he know that?---He organised it, he asked me to arrange the girls to go there that night so he knew exactly what was going, I mean- - 10 How did he know, what Im trying to find out, Mr Gattellari, is just one thing. Im sure on your, the basis of your evidence you would know the girl had to be paid?---Yes. Youve been asked questions about whose money it was that you used to pay. Im trying to find out whether you are saying Mr Medich knew that you were using company money or whether he did not?---He did know that I was using company money, yes. How did he know that?---Well, cause I also used , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,. It was commonly known that I used company money to pay for any of the girls that were used for any of the directors that wanted to have a night out. MR TERRACINI: I object, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. All right. Well, that wasnt responsive and it will be struck out. So there will be a suppression order on that answer.

20

30

SUPPRESSION ORDER IN RELATION TO PREVIOUS ANSWER

MR TERRACINI: Now, do the other girls, that is, Cindy- - THE COMMISSIONER: Im sorry, Mr Terracini. Part of that answer is responsive. The part thats responsive is, and I cant remember the exact words, but its to the effect of that Mr Medich knew that it was, that company money would be used to pay for the room. 40 MR TERRACINI: Yeah, that is responsive. The remainder about the use of, is not. THE COMMISSIONER: So can we, can we agree that that part remains? MR TERRACINI: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: The rest is struck out.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

357T

MR TERRACINI: Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. MR TERRACINI: Look, the four girls that you arranged for the night, can you tell us whether any of them was not fluent in English but capable enough to understand basic conversations in English?---I think all four of them were good, pretty good at English. 10 All four?---I believe so. Have you had conversations with them in English?---Yes. And I assume that you dont speak Mandarin?---Ive got the odd word that I use occasionally. But other than- - -?---I dont speak fluent Mandarin, no. And your telephone conversations to engage their services are in English? ---They are. They appear to understand what youre saying?---They dont appear to understand, they do understand. Yeah. THE COMMISSIONER: Do you know the woman called Cindy?---I do. Do you speak to her in English?---Yes. 30 MR TERRACINI: And she responds in English?---Yes. Now, to your observation was there alcohol consumed at the table that the Country Energy people were on and Mr Macdonald was on?---I believe there was, yes. And was there some arrangement so far as you were aware as to how first of all Tiffanie would get to the Four Seasons Hotel?---Yes, there was an arrangement. 40 And you arranged that with your driver?---I did. You arranged for whatever payment was to be given to Tiffanie?---No. But there was the expectation that shed be paid by you?---Not on the night.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

358T

No, but the expectation would be that you would pay her?---Im answering that I didnt give him any money to pay Tiffanie because she wouldnt be expecting to be paid on the night. Yes, but by you?---Yes, by me. All right. So who then, if youre aware of it, who was to get Mr Macdonald to the hotel?---I believe that Mr Medich was going to get Mr Macdonald to the hotel. 10 And how did you become aware of that?---Oh, it was just something that was arranged. I didnt become aware of it, it wasnt something that happened on the spur of the moment. Well, see, it just doesnt come to you from the ether or from, did you know that there was an arrangement that Mr Medich would take Mr Macdonald to the hotel?---No, I did not. Right. And did you know that there was going to be a get-together or a meeting at Mr Medichs home later that evening? THE COMMISSIONER: At what point did he know that. MR TERRACINI: Yeah. At, did, first of all, did you know at all that there was going to be a meeting back at Mr Medichs place later that evening? ---It was arranged earlier that at the end of the night after Mr Macdonald left that everyone would be sober, wed all go back to Rons and have a few drinks. 30 Right. And did you do that?---We did. And did you speak to Mr Kaminic there at Point Piper?---About what? About anything?---Yeah, we spoke. And did you ask him how, everything go all right, words like that?---I think I may have asked him whether he gave the key to Mr Macdonald and everything was okay and he said everythings fine. 40 And did he say to you that hed seen Mr Medich there?---No, he didnt. Well, you, youd been told no doubt that he was to transport Tiffanie to the Four Seasons in her motor vehicle. Does that agree with your memory? ---In whose motor vehicle? Her motor vehicle?---No, thats not the way I remember it. Well, how was Mr Kaminic to get to the hotel?---He used my car.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

359T

Your car?---I think so. How did he get from the Four Seasons to Point Piper?---I think he came back to the, to the restaurant and picked me up. Im not sure, to be honest with you. So he went back to Leichhardt and then drove you?---I think so. 10 Okay. What sort of vehicle did he have, was it distinctive for instance? ---Oh, its a blue Volkswagen Touareg. All right. So quite a, like a four-wheel drive-style vehicle?---Yes, yes. All right. Well, it may be more difficult to remember whether he came back to Leichhardt or not to pick you up but did you drive yourself? That may assist your memory?---I dont think I did. Well, how did you leave, did you go with him after you finished socialising at- - -?---We all, we all left, we all left Rons place, well, Senad and I left Rons place in my car and Mr, I think Mr Shipley left in his car. Well, what about Mr Kaminic?---He came with me. With you? THE COMMISSIONER: Thats what he said. MR TERRACINI: Mmm. All right. Well, have you got any memory then of what hour were talking of when you eventually get to Point Piper? THE COMMISSIONER: When you arrive at Point Piper?---Oh, pretty late at night, sometime before midnight I think it was. MR TERRACINI: Well, you saw Mr Medich there?---Mr Medich arrived a bit later, yes. And did you say, well, look, did everything go all right with the government minister, or words like that?---No, I didnt say did it go all right with the government minister, I said, Everythings fine. And he said, Lets go down and have a drink. He arrived after we did. In fact we waited outside his place cause we couldnt get in through the, through the gate so we had to wait for him to arrive to let us in. And did he arrive with anyone?---No. Ah, no.

20

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

360T

Okay. Well, what Im directing your memory to, is was there any conversation of any kind about what had taken place or what you had expected to take place at the hotel with Mr Macdonald and Tiffanie? ---Not on that night at his house, no, there were other things that were more pressing. See, what I suggest to you is that at no time was Mr Medich involved in the arranging of your girls for the services of anyone?---You may suggest it, but its not correct. 10 And the only person that confirms otherwise, yourself. And he was not involved in, in arranging the premises and he didnt have anything to do with arranging the premises, did he? THE COMMISSIONER: The premises? THE WITNESS: Youre incorrect. MR TERRACINI: All right. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, the premises, can you just clarify that? MR TERRACINI: The, the Four Seasons premises. THE COMMISSIONER: Did you understand that?---I did. MR TERRACINI: Do the women that work for you or with you, you can describe it in your own words if you wish, but do they actually do massages as well as engage in what could be described in anybodys language as sexual behaviour?---Some of them are a good masseuse, some of them arent. All right. But they do do that sort of thing, do they?---Occasionally. THE COMMISSIONER: Some of them or all of them?---Not all of them, no. MR TERRACINI: And theyre not qualified osteopaths or masseuse or, or dont have any formal qualifications?---Not to my knowledge, no. 40 But part of this service that you provide can depend upon what the person actually wants?---I dont quite look at it as providing a service. Now, I started to discuss what these girls are all about before you objected. Now, do you want me to go into why we had these girls? I mean its up to you. No. Subject to the Commissioners rulings youll just have to answer my question.

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

361T

THE COMMISSIONER: Thats your- - MR TERRACINI: So far as Im asking it, do they provide services other than what most people, if not all, would describe as sexual services? ---Okay. Ill answer the question the only way I can. Mr Medich and I at one stage, see, I cant answer your question then. I object. (not transcribable) the question. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, just- - MR TERRACINI: Im asking you about what service they can provide. Its quite simple. THE COMMISSIONER: Well, what services they can provide. MR TERRACINI: Yes. THE WITNESS: They can provide whatever service they wish to engage with the person theyre with. MR TERRACINI: Right. Do you, do you ever inquire of them as to whether they can do traditional massages?---No, I dont. All right. Do you ever ask them what qualifications other than plainly having sex with people that they have?---The only qualifications these girls needed were to be very attractive, speak some English and very friendly. Right. Now, have you ever provided- - 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Could I, sorry, Mr Terracini, there is a question that I propose to ask but I will ask you before I ask it, so that if you object you can tell me. I propose to, to ascertain whether when these girls were initially engaged, were they questioned as to whether they would be willing, should they wish to, to provide sex to the people with whom they were asked to go out. MR TERRACINI: No, I have no objection to that. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Do you hear the question?---Yes, I do. Whats the answer?---The answer is, they were asked would they be prepared to do it and in some cases they were not. MR TERRACINI: Right. And did the fee correspond to perhaps what they were prepared to do?---Pretty much.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

362T

Right. Now, Ill show that Im directing my comments to the Commissioner, not Mr Gattellari. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr, sorry Mr Terracini, I dont mean to interrupt you but there is another question that I think that is relevant and that is whether Mr Medich knew these girls and what they provided. MR TERRACINI: Well we had uncontradicted evidence already, that he knew that of the business - - 10 THE COMMISSIONER: All right. MR TERRACINI: - - - in a neutral term off Mr Gattellari, but they didnt, he didnt know their name and one wasnt suggested. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, very well. MR WATSON: I dont concede that theres evidence about that latter. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: About what, Mr Watson? MR WATSON: That Mr Medich didnt know their name or (not transcribable) I dont concede that theres evidence of that, much less uncontested evidence of that. THE COMMISSIONER: Well that wasnt what I was going to ask anyway. MR WATSON: No, its just this statement was made from the bar table. 30 MR TERRACINI: Now, Commissioner, so that theres no issue vis--vis yesterday, I have not heard Mr Watson attempt to get evidence from the witness concerning the exchange of a large sum of cash. So I assume that thats not going to be any issue in terms of this witness providing the money to Shipley, cash. THE COMMISSIONER: Thats a valid point. MR TERRACINI: So I dont propose to pursue it because I have taken that theres not going to be any adverse inference - - 40 THE COMMISSIONER: I dont think that there was ever any adverse inference because its not one of the issues that were investigating. MR TERRACINI: Yes, I know, Commissioner, but its these sorts of things get - - -

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

363T

THE COMMISSIONER: But it is relevant in the sense, it is relevant. I can see a relevance. It is, it is, but its a matter for Mr Watson and let Mr Watson decide that and well debate it further. MR TERRACINI: Yes, all right. MR WATSON: May I say this, I did not call it here, okay, because it was not challenged, but I can do it now if Mr Terracini - - 10 THE COMMISSIONER: It wasnt challenged? MR WATSON: It wasnt suggested to Mr Shipley that that evidence was false about receiving the $200,000 and no questions were asked about it. THE COMMISSIONER: I think it was indirectly challenged. MR TERRACINI: Yes. My point is we dont challenge that Gattellari was in - - 20 MR WATSON: Perhaps I should then ask some questions. Perhaps it would be (not transcribable) if I so now. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, any objection to that? MR TERRACINI: No, no, no. MR WATSON: Mr Gattellari, do you remember an occasion when Mr Shipley was short of money to meet a payroll?---I remember on many of occasions, but I think the one youre discussing - - 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I beg your pardon? You remember?---I remember many of those occasions. Many of those occasions. MR WATSON: Well I want to talk about one where theres a suggestion that you came with a large sum of money?---I had been with Ron Medich and picked up $200,000 in cash. 40 First of all did Shipley tell you that there was a need for money?---Actually it didnt happen that way. As I was just going to explain, I picked up the money from Ron Medich and I was on my way home with the money and I called in at the Rivercorp offices at Ultimo. Mr Shipley then told me about his problem he was having with payroll and I volunteered to advance him some cash money to make up the payroll.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

364T

Why were you carrying $200,000?---On different occasions, many occasions I picked up large sums of cash from Mr Medich for different, different requirements he had. Well why did you pick up this particular sum of money?---There were a number of jobs that he wanted done that needed to be paid for. And I dont want to go into specifics of these jobs, there was quite a number of - - THE COMMISSIONER: No, no, I dont want you go into specifics either, but I want to know whether amongst those requirements were matters relating to the RIV Group of companies?---No. So what did you use the $200,000 on this occasion?---Well - - Or however much it was?---Well Im trying to explain. There was a, there was a pretty loose arrangement as far as money went with Ron Medich and the group of companies. And many different - - The RIV Group?---The RIV Group. Many different times money that was supposed to go for one purpose was changed in direction and went to another purpose and then made up later when receivables were received. So it was not uncommon. Yes. But I still dont really understand how it came about that you took cash for the RIV Group, RIV Group of companies. Why did you decide to just take cash to help Mr Shipley?---The cash was, sorry? To help Mr Shipley, I dont - - -?---I didnt take the cash to help Mr Shipley. The cash was to be used for other purposes. When Mr Shipley advised me of the problem he was having, I advanced him some of that cash to make up the payroll. And it was to be paid back later. Paid back by whom?---By Kim Shipley. When the receivables arrive - - By the company I assume?---By the company, yes. So it was a loan?---A bridging loan until he got some funds in. A loan by whom?---Well it was an internal loan between companies. 40 So who owned the money?---Ron Medich. Why do you say that?---Well because I picked up the money from his house. MR WATSON: Did he give it to you?---Yes.

10

20

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

365T

When you went to his house, dont tell us the particular purpose that you had in mind but did you say I will need money for that or did he say you will need money for that?---No. I went there to pick up the money that was arranged prior. Right. THE COMMISSIONER: But this is not, I still dont understand that. Arranged prior doesnt mean the money for Shipley, it means for another purpose?---No, arranged for other reasons. Yes?---Yeah. MR WATSON: And theres some suggestion that it was in a Myer shopping bag. Does that ring a bell?---Oh, it would have been a shopping bag. Whether it was a Myer or Grace Bros, I dont remember. But you took the money and you felt that you had authority to apply it to the payroll of Rivercorp did you?---Yes, I did. 20 And who gave you that authority?---Well as I explained on many other occasions when I picked up money from Ron Medich for one particular reason, wed transfer it and use it for something else and there was never a problem. Yes, thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Gattellari, theres one aspect of this that I need to understand, please. When you used money that you say you got from Mr Medich from a safe, the cash, and you used it for various purposes, I understood you to say that you did not, those purposes did not ever include the Rivercorp group of companies business other than this one relating to the request by Mr Shipley for evidence, for assistance. Is that right?---That is right. Any money that Mr Medich put into the companies would be directly transferred into RIV Developments and then RIV Developments would transfer the funds elsewhere. Other matters that I looked after for Ron Medich, he would pay me in cash. There was no record of it, there was never any documentation kept in regards to where the money came from or where it went. Well what Im still unsure of is if you were, I understand that you say that you were authorised by Mr Medich to spend his money on matters that did not concern the RIV Group of companies. What made you think that you were authorised by Mr Medich to take the money that you gave to Mr Shipley for the purposes of the RIV Group of companies?---Well because the jobs that needed to be done, as long as they were done, Mr Medich didnt care where the money went. Once the money left his, once he gave m

10

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

366T

the money to complete certain jobs for him, as long as the jobs took place and it happened, he didnt care what happened to it. But that still doesnt explain, I have said to you that I dont want you to say what the other jobs were if they didnt relate to the RIV Group of companies?---Right. Or any of the issues that we are discussing in this inquiry?---Let me explain it a little bit differently. 10 Yes?---Ive got $200,000 to achieve a goal for Mr Medich. Yes?---I could afford a bit of time. Mr Shipley required $100,000 or whatever it was he required, I could afford a bit of time to give him the money knowing that it would be paid back to me in time to fulfil the other job that needed to be done, because I still had time to complete. I see. So really this is something that you decided to do yourself?---Yes. 20 Mr Terracini. MR TERRACINI: And was in October 2008?---I have no idea. What about, no idea of the year?---I have no idea of the time, Ive stipulated on many occasions events that I discuss actually took place, but dont ask me whether they were in January, February, March or whatever, I dont remember. Im specifically turning your mind on to a date or a day, but you cant even remember the year. Is that right?---No, I cant. Well how many times have you given Mr Shipley $150,000 in cash? ---Maybe on about two or three occasions. Well that would be reasonably memorable wouldnt it?---Not particularly, no. So around about 150,000 in cash on this occasion - - 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini, again, how can I put this, this is ground that you are opening up which is capable of getting rise to answers you would not want - - MR TERRACINI: Oh yes, Im aware of that, Commissioner. Im moving on to a specific instance. Did you understand that Mr Shipley told you that this amount of money was for the payment of wages?---Yes, I did.

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

367T

And youd know from your own experience that naturally enough records would have to be kept in relation to the payment of wages, even if it is cash?---Yes. Well, did he indicate to you how many people were involved or what sort of workers were involved?---We were employing about 350 people, I had no idea which part he was short of. Well, I want to ask you whether you knew, did he tell you that it had to be used for a specific purpose?---No, he didnt. He was short for payroll was a term he would always use, were short for payroll and I said well, I can help you cause Ive got some cash which I picked up today but I need it back. You see, what Im suggesting to you is that if the payment was made in cash to Mr Shipley that was not authorised by Mr Medich at all?---You may suggest it - - THE COMMISSIONER: Not expressly, not expressly. I mean, best, best ask that if you dont mind. 20 MR TERRACINI: Yes. It was not expressly authorised by Mr Medich, was it?---Mr Medich never expressly authorised anything. He just, I automatically knew that it was right cause thats the way we operated. Well, what I suggest to you that this was an example of you in effect being involved in making your own financial decisions to the detriment of Mr Medich, that is taking cash?---The jobs he paid for were done so I dont think youre correct. 30 You dont think Im correct?---I dont think you are, no. Did you ever keep any records of how much cash you gave to Mr Shipley? ---There would have been a record of it, yes. All right. With who?---Well, I think that in some of the documentation that the police had there would be some record of cash moneys that Ive given to Mr Shipley. All right. Yes, thank you. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Is there any, anybody else wishing to ask questions of Mr Gattellari? Mr Watson? MR BREWER: I do, I do, Commissioner.

10

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (TERRACINI)

368T

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Brewer acts for Mr Moio, Mr Gattellari. Do you understand that, Mr Gattellari?---Yes, I do, yes, sorry. MR BREWER: Mr Gattellari, youve given some evidence about the document which I think is the agreement which you signed and my client signed which I think is Exhibit - - THE COMMISSIONER: 15. 10 MR BREWER: 15, thank you. Do you have a copy of that in front of you, Mr Gattellari?---I do. All right. And as I understand your evidence you indicated that youve known my client for many years but you became reacquainted with him through the restaurant?---Correct. Is that right? Were you referring to the restaurant Tuscany as the restaurant?---Yes, I was. 20 And that was by virtue of the fact that I think you made clear that your employer, Mr Medich, had an office upstairs, is that right?---That is correct. And he was in fact the owner of the building where the restaurant was situated?---That is correct. And I take it it was your connection with Mr Moio that led you to commence to take lunch there fairly regularly, is that right?---No, it wasnt my connection with Mr Moio, it was my connection with Mr Medich. 30 I see. And so you became reacquainted with my client did you by virtue of lunching at the restaurant with Mr Medich?---Correct. And how long after you commenced to take lunch there did my client give you, to use your words, a version of the document that ultimately became Exhibit 15?---Oh, it was some time later cause we, when I first started going for lunch there we werent involved with Rivercorp or any of the electrical companies so it was some time later. I see. And did it become - Ill withdraw that. The version that you received from Mr Moio, did you retain a copy of that?---We did but I dont have it with me, it was about four or five pages. I see. Well, where is it?---Oh, the police took documents from three of my offices, from my house, it would be in one of the multitude of boxes that the police have. I see. And you, you say you condensed four or five pages into the single page that became Exhibit 15, is that right?---Absolutely.

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (BREWER)

369T

I see. And where, where is the original of Exhibit 15?---I have no idea. It would have been in one of the documents that the police have got. And you gave some evidence that my client had requested that part of the money be paid to his son-in-law, is that right?---Yes. And that the balance would be paid in cash?---That is correct. 10 All right. And did you keep a record of any cash payments - - THE COMMISSIONER: Again, I am now warning you again, Mr Brewer, if you ask that question you are opening up something that may be detrimental not only to you but to others so just - I am, other warnings I have given have not been heeded, on the first day, which has resulted in publicity so just be aware and if somebody wants to object to that you are able to do so because I am just telling you that you are opening up something you may not like. 20 MR BREWER: Thank you, Commissioner. You see, I want to suggest that you never gave any cash to my client? ---And I suggest to you that thats not right. Pardon me one moment. Yes, nothing further, thank you, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Watson. MR WATSON: No, I dont have any re-examination for Mr Gattellari. 30 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, Mr Gattellari, you are excused? ---Thank you.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED

[12.46pm]

MR WATSON: Ive got a witness who I think we can finish before lunchtime. 40 THE COMMISSIONER: Very well. MR WATSON: Could I say this, Commissioner, things have gone far faster than I had anticipated and this is the last witness Ive scheduled for today. The next witness in order was to be Mr Moio who is to come along tomorrow morning and I dont know whether he can be got here at short notice.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

GATTELLARI (BREWER)

370T

THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Well, my apologies to everyone if their time has been wasted. Well call the next witness. Are you saying that this - is there any point in trying to get him over lunch? MR WATSON: Well, Ill speak to Mr Brewer about that but the - - THE COMMISSIONER: Well, does Mr Brewer know? Mr Brewer? MR BREWER: Look, I dont know quite frankly, Commissioner, whether it will be possible to get him here. Weve certainly lined him up for tomorrow in accordance with his summons so - - MR WATSON: Were clearly within schedule, perhaps it might be better to keep Mr Moio for tomorrow. THE COMMISSIONER: All right. Call the next witness. MR WATSON: Could I call Vincenzo Pizzati. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, please be seated. Is Mr Pizzati represented? MR FUNG: I seek leave to represent Mr Pizzati, my name if Fung, F-U-NG. THE COMMISSIONER: I beg your pardon? MR FUNG: My name is Fung, F-U-N-G. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Fung. 30 MR FUNG: Thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: You have leave. Swear in the interpreter.

10

<ANGELA ANGELONE, sworn

[12.48pm]

40

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Fung, do you wish me to make a section 38 order? MR FUNG: I do. THE COMMISSIONER: Have you explained this to Mr Pizzati? MR FUNG: I have.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

371T

THE COMMISSIONER: Pursuant to section 38 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by Mr Pizzati and all documents produced by him during the course of his evidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given or produced on objection and accordingly there is no need for him to make objection in respect of any particular answer given or document produced.

10

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY MR PIZZATI AND ALL DOCUMENTS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF HIS EVIDENCE AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND ACCORDINGLY THERE IS NO NEED FOR HIM TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT PRODUCED.

20

THE COMMISSIONER: Does Mr Pizzati wish to give his evidence under oath or does he wish to affirm the truth of his evidence? MR PIZZATI: Under oath. THE COMMISSIONER: Will you swear him.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

372T

<VINCENZO PIZZATI, sworn

[12.49pm]

THE COMMISSIONER: Now, before you give your evidence, Mr Pizzati, I just want to make sure of one thing. Mr Fung has explained to you that because of the order I have made the evidence you give today will generally not be allowed to be used against you in any criminal or civil proceedings. Do you understand that?---Yes. 10 This, that order however does not protect you if you dont tell the truth because if you dont tell the truth you may be prosecuted for an offence under the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, and the penalty for not telling the truth in a public inquiry is a gaol term of up to five years. Do you understand that?---*Yeah.* Yes, Mr Watson? MR WATSON: Is your name Vincenzo Pizzati?---Yes. 20 Are you the husband of Rosa Moio?---Si. Are you the son-in-law of Frank Moio?---Yes. Did you come to Australia in September 2008?---Yes. In October 2008, did you secure employment with ZL Group Limited? ---Yes. And were you employed as a construction worker?---Yes. 30 And the work which they gave you was five, for five days a week starting at 7.00am and finishing at 3.30pm?---Yes. With occasional overtime?---*Sometimes, yeah.* Sometimes, yeah. And youve worked for ZL Group since October 2008 and until now? ---Not till now. Not till now. You stopped more recently, did you?---Now Im working for another company now. All right. Do you remember while you were employed by ZL Group you were working effectively as a labourer?---Yes. Earning between $500 per week net to $700 per week net, depending upon overtime?---In the normal wage that a carpenter would get. THE COMMISSIONER: But is it about that?---Yes.

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

PIZZATI (WATSON)

373T *not through interpreter

MR WATSON: Do you remember being introduced to Ron Medich? ---Who introduced me to Ron Medich? Do you remember being introduced to Ron Medich?---Yes. Were you introduced to Ron Medich at The Tuscany Restaurant in Leichhardt?---Yes. 10 Were you introduced by your father-in-law, Frank Moio?---Yes. When you were introduced to Mr Medich were you in the company of your wife, Rosa?---Yes. You speak virtually no English. Is that so?---Yes. But your wife, Rosa, is fluent in both English and Italian?---Yes. Mr Medich offered you a job, did he?---My wife explained to me, yes, that he want to give me a job. Mr Medich spoke in English to your wife and she translated it into Italian to you?---Yes. In conversation with Mr Medich at The Tuscany he offered you a job? ---Yes. The company with which he offered you the job was called Rivercorp Pty Limited?---Yes. 30 And he offered to pay you money?---I dont understand the question. He offered to pay you money?---He offered me a job and as a consequence I would get paid. And he did, he began to pay you money?---When I filled in the form to go work for him I started to receive money. You filled in some form to apply for a job, did you?---Yes. 40 And you provided that to Mr Medich, did you?---Yes. And you immediately began to receive $1,503.39 per week?---Yes. After tax?---Yes. Paid directly into your bank account?---Yes.

20

29/11/2011 E11/0446

PIZZATI (WATSON)

374T *not through interpreter

Did you ever do even one minutes work for Rivercorp Pty Limited?---No. Could the witness be shown pages 501 and following through to 504, starting with 501. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson, I dont think were going to finish at 1 oclock. MR WATSON: We may be able, if we (not transcribable) before luncheon. 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, it depends on Mr Terracini and Mr Brewer. MR TERRACINI: Ill be only about a minute, if that, Commissioner. MR HALE: I dont imagine Ill have any questions. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Brewer? MR BREWER: Ill be very short, Commissioner. 20 THE COMMISSIONER: Well, well go on till this witness is finished. MR WATSON: Do you see on the screen in front of you the cover of a notebook which you kept?---Yes. Could the witness be shown page 502. Do you see there, entries made in your handwriting about income and expenditure from your bank account? ---Yes. 30 And youll see for example on that first page, 11 February, 2009, wages from Rivercorp?---Yes. And youll see that the sum is $1,503.39?---Yes. And you continued to receive payments over a long period of time?---About three or four months. In total you received payments in the order of $37,000 from Rivercorp? ---The total? 40 Yes?---Yes. THE COMMISSIONER: The answers yes?---Yes. *Yes.* MR WATSON: Now, could you tell the Commissioner, what is the business of Rivercorp?---Its an electrical company. Is it retail or manufacturing?---I dont know.

29/11/2011 E11/0446

PIZZATI (WATSON)

375T *not through interpreter

Where is its office?---I dont know. Does it have an office?---Surely it would have. Does it have a factory?---Yes, because I had to go work in a factory. Well you never, where was the factory?---I dont know. You receiving this money for nothing werent you?---I was receiving the money because I was supposed to go and work for him. I was waiting for him to offer me the job and then go work for him. In fact, Mr Pizzati, you were receiving the money as part payment of a benefit from Mr Medich to your father-in-law, Frank Moio werent you? ---No. No. I tender the copy of the notebook identified by Mr Pizzati. THE COMMISSIONER: Yes. Exhibit 17 is extracts from Mr Pizzatis notebook.

10

20

#EXHIBIT 17 - EXTRACT FROM MR PIZZATIS DIARY

MR TERRACINI: Can I just clarify one thing, Commissioner. Is that in his own handwriting or his wifes handwriting? MR WATSON: Look at the, look at the screen, thats your handwriting isnt it?---Yes. Thank you. Theyre the questions for Mr Pizzati. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Hale, you have no questions? MR HALE: No questions. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Terracini. 40 MR TERRACINI: Yes, briefly. Sir, were you ever told that your wages had been stopped?---Did I receive money, did I, was I told that I was getting paid, no. Was I getting paid, no. When I met up with Mr Medich with my wife I asked him and I he said there was no longer a need for me to go to work. MR BREWER: What did you say, I didnt hear that.

30

29/11/2011 E11/0446

PIZZATI 376T (WATSON)/(TERRACINI)*not through interpreter

THE COMMISSIONER: There was no longer any need for me to go to work. MR TERRACINI: And do you know a man called Lucky Gattellari? ---Yeah. Are you sure that it wasnt Mr Gattellari who told you that you could get a job for a man called Medich rather than - - 10 THE COMMISSIONER: Could get a job for? MR TERRACINI: For Ron Medich rather than Mr Medich and you meeting personally? THE COMMISSIONER: I dont understand the question Mr Terracini. THE WITNESS: No. No. MR TERRACINI: What I suggest to you that the offer of a job did not come from Mr Medich but it came through Lucky Gattellari?---No, it was Ron Medich that offered me the job. I never spoke to Lucky Gattellari about that. What did you think you were getting paid for?---When I put in the application form and they started paying me, I thought that was normal because I thought I was going to get called to go to work from one day to another. THE COMMISSIONER: Well what job were you going to get?---To go work in the warehouse. As what?---Whatever work there was to do because Mr Ron said to me that when they call you someone will show you what to do. And for that you were going to be paid more than $1,300 a week?---Yes. MR TERRACINI: Its the lucky country. THE COMMISSIONER: Even though you cant speak English?---(not transcribable) MR TERRACINI: Sir, Im sorry, Madam Interpreter. THE COMMISSIONER: Its all right, the question doesnt need answering. MR TERRACINI: It was obvious to you that you were being paid virtually to do nothing?---No. I was supposed to go to work.

20

30

40

29/11/2011 E11/0446

PIZZATI 377T (TERRACINI) *not through interpreter

And I suggest to you that the person who organised the job for you was Gattellari?---No. Thank you. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Brewer? MR BREWER: Just one question. Mr Pizzati, I act for your father-in-law, my name is Brewer. Brewer. Mr Pizzati, can you tell us whether you received a request from Rivercorp about your shirt size?---Yes. For the entire uniform, I had a form to fill in regarding the whole uniform for work. And when did you fill that form in please, Mr Pizzati?---When it came at home and then I sent it off by fax?---All right. And how long - had you started receiving money from Rivercorp when that request was given to you? ---Yes. About how long after you were being paid?---I cant remember, about a month, a month and a half or two months, Im not sure. Theyre my questions, Commissioner. THE COMMISSIONER: Mr Watson? MR WATSON: Nothing in re-examination. Might Mr Pizzati be excused? THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Pizzati may be excused. Thank you for interpreting. 30 THE WITNESS EXCUSED [1.06pm]

10

20

THE COMMISSIONER: Well adjourn until 10.00am tomorrow morning. MR WATSON: Thank you, Commissioner.

40

AT 1.06 PM THE MATTER WAS ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY [1.06 pm]

29/11/2011 E11/0446

PIZZATI 378T (TERRACINI)/(BREWER) *not through interpreter