Probably No God

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Theres probably no God?

Published on December 14, 2009 in liturgy and spirituality. 56 Comments
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New Zealand is following other countries in having an atheist bus campaign. Atheists are raising $NZ10,000 to mimic the UK campaign
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and place Theres probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life on several buses in major New Zealand cities. Approximately 12 buses in Auckland, 8 in Wellington and 4 in Christchurch will feature the
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ads for 4 weeks. Television presenter Mike Hosking caught organiser Simon Fisher on the hop with his first question why bother? Hosking, who thinks there probably is no God, cannot see the motivation or purpose for the campaign and Fisher reacted as if he had never thought of this most obvious of questions. That was soon followed by Jo Kelly-Moore, the Vicar of St Aidans, in Remuera, clearly running circles around Fishers weak points. Rather than fear, or tut-tut, this campaign, I welcome the opportunity for some serious dialogue. One of my followers on twitter interestingly pointed out that Fishers language echoed the Alpha course. Alpha may be OK for introducing people who have no idea about Christianity to it but please can we not stay at the level of alpha please can we move on towards kappa or further. The website of the NZ Atheist Bus Campaign, over which (rather than the soundbite TV debate) they have full control does not appear to give an adequate definition for God which the site is dedicated to stating probably does not exist. The discussions, which I am welcoming, may help Christians to move beyond rather simplistic definitions of God (alpha) towards the classical definitions in which God i s n o t m e r e l y a supernatural being alongside other beings
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(supernatural or natural) as if adding God to this coffee cup results in now having two objects. And with the rather regularly trite comment that atheists believe in merely one less god than Christians do Hence, Christians and other theists, may be enriched by this discussion into deepening the expression of their faith, revisiting the apophatic tradition
(alongside the more common kataphatic approach) of Christianity, emphasising the transcendent nature of God (alongside Gods a tChristmas-time-particularly-appropriate immanent nature). Lets have some nuanced discussion, rather than the popular Richard Dawkins approach of pitting the best of science against the most simplistic, childish, flat-earth theism, where every few sentences Dawkins drops a clanger demonstrating his lack of reading of any theist up to beta, let alone kappa! Lets acknowledge the great damage that bad religion and bad theology and bad spirituality have done. But I dont see Dawkins giving up sex or money just because of the great damage that sex and money have done in human history! And lets not pretend that Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao Zedong are particularly good exemplars of the USA version of this campaign which had the slogan: Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness sake. Are those atheists an explanation of what good means in a world without a god? Can you be good for goodness sake? Or do we need help to be good? And might being good (for goodness sake) be a sign of God rather than a denial? Fishers s l i g h t o f h a n d w i t h o u t a n y e x p l a n a t i o n , t h a t atheism means humanism certainly needs justification. It seems to me that it is belief in God and the sacredness of Gods creation that leads to valuing human life it will take a lot more than a tweet-length bus slogan to convince me that atheism naturally leads to people caring for others as a consequence. Theres also a need to tidy other definitions: Theist believes in God Atheist believes there is no God Agnostic (type A) believes it is not possible to know Agnostic (type B) I dont know Also the word belief can do with some clarification. Belief in God as a solely cerebral affirmation is a relatively new usage. I believe in God is originally more about trust, about commitment in the sense of I believe in democracy, I believe in the All Blacks. Certainly I believe in Jesus has nothing to do with the historicity of Jesus of Nazareth which is accepted by all but the most extreme of scholars yet popularly, and amongst some young people, they equate belief in Jesus alongside belief in the tooth-fairy, or at this time, Santa. Alongside the atrocities of religion, lets also list off some of the positives: art, music, science, technology, literature, genetics (Dawkins take note), the concept of the Big Bang (a real shock originally mocked by atheists), Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci, Dante, Shakespeare, Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Alongside the need to clarify the definition of God, we are invited to clarify the nature o f God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life is based on an impression of an almighty punishing ogre in the sky. As Kelly-Moore made crystal clear in the TV interview, nothing could (should!) be further from a Christian perspective of God, a God who is love. So, in summary, lets not react against these ads they are a wonderful opportunity not only to deepen our own reflection, but to clarify the misunderstandings between us. Atheists can be prophets, challenging the idols that Christians present. And just as God does not agree with all done in Gods name however frequently and fervently Gods name is repeated so God is not absent from atheists lives however frequently and fervently denied.
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You can also produce your own (you can give your version in the comments below) Comments policy In passing, spend four minutes listening to Johann Sebastian Bachs Jesu Joy of Mans Desiring
Jesu, joy of mans desiring Holy wisdom, love most bright Drawn by Thee, our souls aspiring Soar to uncreated light Word of God, our flesh that fashioned With the fire of life impassioned Striving still to truth unknown Soaring, dying round Thy throne Through the way where hope is guiding Hark, what peaceful music rings Where the flock, in Thee confiding Drink of joy from deathless springs Theirs is beautys fairest pleasure Theirs is wisdoms holiest treasure Thou dost ever lead Thine own In the love of joys unknown
56 Responses to Theres probably no God?

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Mike Crowl
December 14, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Its a surprising cop-out by the atheists who are promoting this ad campaign both here and abroad that they cant actually come out and say, There IS not God. Probably? What are they afraid of?
Bob
If they say there is no God, then they are making a conclusion. A conclusion that they can not backup with anything concrete. They will make fool of themselves by publicly and officially stating this. It seems/is very arrogant and they dont want that. This is a PR thing. So these days they prefer to redefine atheist as a lack of belief in God its not a belief that they believe that there is no God so my car is an atheist too, for it lacks any belief including belief in God. good luck in trying to educate them that atheist is a belief.
Peter Carrell
Hi Bosco it was Mike Hosking not Mark Sainsbury!
Stuart
Bosco not entirely sure I followed all of your post but thank you. It has certainly given me more to think about personally at a time when my core faith is being thoroughly challeneged anyway. Interesting to note that in the UK the campaign has had little impact from what I can tell. But like you, I welcome the discussions it creates even though I dont have all the answers.
Ian
There probably is no bus, now get off your mat and walk Being a part time London-dweller, I saw these busses. I call it an aspect of living in a secular state. The New-Atheism discussion is one that, at best, irritates me due to its lack of proper scholarship (Dawkins). But a lot of believer rise to the bait, and get into these silly discussions which really lead nowhere. Its all nonsense to me.
Tim
Well said. The way I read it is that saying theres probably no God is the opposite assertion to there is a God, not there is God the indefinite article making all the difference. We have long exceeded the idea of God as a being or indeed an anything and now lean towards more conceptual attempts-at-understandings (how does the sum of all experience float your boat?). God is not some superman, whose existence needs proven or otherwise; yet God is meaningful!
Tim
So these days they prefer to redefine atheist as a lack of belief in God Im not sure which `they were talking about here, but in my limited experience, atheists like to think of the term in two strengths-ofargument: weak = no belief in God (eg failure to see evidence); strong = belief in no God.
RuthNH
December 15, 2009 at 12:35 am
I could be open-minded and have a rational discussion about religion and God, but this is impossible with most atheists. It is their Im right and youre wrong mentality that prevents it. So much time, effort, money being put to trying to debunk and destroy others beliefs. And the thing that bothers me the most is the mocking, using such terms or comparisons as flying spaghetti monster or comparisons to Santa and the tooth fairy. I am a Christian, but Id never go out of my way to mock another persons religion and be offensive. Have a discussion about the negative vs. positive aspects of religion through out history and present time? Im there. Use sarcasm and an intense, almost obsessive desire to stop me from believing? Not interested.
Greg
Interesting to see whats going on faith wise halfway round the world. I agree with @Mike above. Why stick the probably in the phrase? Are even the atheists trying to hold out some hope? Bear in mind, some of the most interesting discussions Ive had with atheists have also included some form of the following conversation: Me: One of the problems I see is that weve devolved the world into so many shades of gray and choose not to recognize that there are absolutes related to right and wrong. Atheists: But there are no absolutes since there is no God. Me: So, you dont believe there are any absolutes? Atheists: Absolutely! To be fair, Ive only gotten that last answer once or twice. But, I do get into the quick discussion that simply by stating there are no absolutes is an absolute statement thus negating the whole argument.
MadPriest
Oh, how boring. I expect a lot more from New Zealanders than blindly copying what everyone else did last year. Wheres your imagination? And how about something a bit more culturally specific like THERES PROBABLY NO BILBO BAGGINS. Or would that be a heresy too far in your neck of the woods.
Paula
I have heard it said, there is no true atheist
Cynde Jackson Clarke

Great topic! Ive been doing a lot of reading so that I am able to educate others when faced with this kind of discussion or position rather than just saying I believe because I just do. and Jesu, Joy of Mans Desiring is my FAVORITE! so are Celtic Women!!!!
Bosco Peters
Thanks, Peter, that publicly gives away how little TV I watch
(I
watched this on the linked clip not on a box) Corrected the post now.
Meg Underdown
The reason for the probably, as I undersfand it, is that the Advertising Standards Agency in Britain insisted on it. This might have been so that it was not too offensive or polemical!
morgan
Its interesting that people are assuming its the Christian God. From what Ive been reading theyre more looking at it from the point of view of addressing there probably being no god. Meaning any god. The signage is all-caps which is misleading.
Ron Gordon
I recently attended a humanist funeral and was struck by two things: The attempt to rubbish the opposition. Ive attended many Christian funerals and can honestly say Ive never heard atheist beliefs being trashed. I was interested to hear things that self-respecting atheists should not believe. The minister gave the departed what he called a blessing he addressed the deceased as if he continued to exist. He quoted the Jacobean poet John Donne saying that no man is an islandany mans death diminishes mesend not to ask..for thee. Which could have just about been acceptable if he was referencing one of Donnes poems (Holy Sonnets perhaps) but of course he was quoting from one of the Dean of St Pauls Cathedrals sermons.
Matthew Holloway
Hi Thomas, your article reads: Television presenter Mike Hosking caught organiser Simon Fraser on the hop with his first question why bother? Hosking, who thinks there probably is no God, cannot see the motivation or purpose for the campaign and Fraser reacted as if he had never thought of this most obvious of questions. Thats a rather uncharitable view of events Thomas. And presumably you mean Simon Fisher. Of course assuming that silence means youre right isnt sensible thinking, and it reminds me of what creationists viewed of Dawkins answer to a question about increase in information in the genome http://bit.ly/1EP65a @Mike I agree with @Mike above. Why stick the probably in the phrase? Are even the atheists trying to hold out some hope? Your use of the word hope is an interesting one. Why would hope have anything to do with it? Atheists dont bend the world to what we hope it might be, thats wishful thinking. Instead probably is about being intellectually honest about the limits of human knowledge. To say there certainly is a Christian God or certainly isnt a Christian God, or there certainly are Unicorns or Zeus (or certainly arent) would be a position of faith. So theres no evidence that distinguishes the Christian God from Zeus, Scientologys Xemu, Wotan, or a million other gods that people have felt in their lives. For an explanation of the campaign see this writeup here http://holloway.co.nz/blog/2009/12/help-people-come-out-ofthe-closet-about-their-non-belief/
Bosco Peters
Thanks Matthew for correcting my Fraser to Fisher (& doing so by your giving me a new name also LOL!) Ive corrected the post. As to your teapot atheism & going one god further in your own post linked here that is exactly the populist, simplistic approach of Dawkins that I hope this campaign will allow us to move a bit deeper than. It is very alpha. Lets move towards kappa. I have already highlighted that belief is more than acknowledge existence of and that God, unlike your teapot analogy, is not an object that can be added to another to increase the number of objects by one.
Greg II
I have had a number of quite interesting discussions with followers of Dawkins. It has not been difficult to develop an argument, based on their premises, that they rely on blind faith for their position. It is upsetting to them when they recognize the end point of their logic but they cannot refute it and do not try. As the discussion progresses it is usually interesting to find they do
not admire Dawkins as much as one might expect. They recognize the weakness of his position and recognize he is a bit of a wild-haired ideologue. That aside I believe there is money to be made. Church schools could sell space on the side of their buses. It is a way to earn money and show tolerance that reflects a deep faith. The pitch to the atheists would be that given it is a matter of probability, they might as well hedge their bet by displaying the sign while making a donation.
Matthew Holloway
@Bosco Peters Well the teapot analogy isnt at all about whether the Christian God could be added to or subtracted from like an object, but rather its a statement about human judgment and how we have distinct and contradictory ideas that we must choose from. These ideas may be supernatural or not, hence a physical teapot in orbit around the sun where some people say it doesnt exist and some people say it does exist. So the teapot analogy isnt about how gods operate and whether theyre divisible but rather its a statement about how humans acquire knowledge in a sea of competing ideas. If someone were to say theyre sitting on the fence when it comes to the issue of the existence of unicorns it would sound odd to us because theres no evidence for unicorns. Yet we dont say were agnostic about unicorns, we just say they dont exist. Atheist about unicorns more accurately fits how most people feel about the idea of unicorns. So the teapot analogy is more about how we as humans acquire knowledge, and whether we are agnostic about unicorns or atheist about unicorns when we dont have any proof. Its not about supernatural effects. Now we may consider whether religion is different to other ideas like unicorns or celestial teapots. It seems that you may think it is difference because youve talked about spiritualism (and please excuse me if Im wrong on the following, I dont know if you do believe this and Im new to this website). If your view on spiritualism is that the various religions are merely glimpses of a Christian God, or perhaps that the Christian God is the wrong name for some underlying spirit/ghost, then how do you resolve competing ideas in religions (homosexuality, abortion, the other hot topics!) or manufactured religions like Cargo Cults or Scientology? Isnt it true that humans are capable of feeling spiritual when theres nothing there, or do you think Cargo Cults and Scientology are taping into something? The teapot analogy is about Mostly its the Certainly you can increase the number of objects by one when ywhat people believe in.
Matthew Holloway
Heres a good video of Simon Fisher talking about the campaign, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhb15mD7eo
morgan
@Bosco Peters Hmm Looking a the OP it is headed up with the name Thomas, however clicking it takes you to another post though. No where in or around the OP does it credit you as the author. Its an easy assumption to make. I made it myself. As for the alpha and kappa labels Ive always thought the Alpha courses where a blight on the Church. They just feel to cultish. :/
christy
Wake ppl, there is a God. I am sorry if you do not believe. I do, nothing can chance that. Alto of my views have changed throughout my life, but one thing has ALWAYS remained the same and that is my faith faith in God & His very real existence. I dont think something as magnificent and intriguing as the Human being could have come out of no where Think about it, if there is no God, then there would be no ethics no morals no feelings (happiness, love, etc). There would not be anything. God is love, God is peace God is everything. Just my opinion.
Bosco Peters
Ah, Morgan, I see it looks to some like Thomas Merton wrote this post? Well that should help increase its popularity The previous
and next posts are just put up there automatically by the wordpress theme (Matthew has exactly the same on his site that he links from here). The author of this site is not that far from the post see about tab.
Bosco Peters
@Matthew I hope you might explain what you mean by supernatural and spiritualism. The teapot and the unicorns are (possible) physical objects you can detect and analyse using scientific methods. You can add a teapot to this cup & now have two objects. Feeling spiritual is a feeling able to be detected and analysed by scientific methods. God is neither physical. Nor an object. You cannot use scientific
methods to detect or analyse God. You cannot add God to this cup & now have two objects. God is not in the category of teapots and unicorns. There is no analogy.
Jean Paul Datuin

Theres probably no God means theyre unsure if there is one. What are they afraid of? The truth?
Mike Ardern
mid-Atlantic, April 1912, : That was probably not an iceberg. So relax and enjoy your dinner and dancing
John Sobert Sylvest

It is true that the New atheists engage but a caricature of authentic belief. And they, in turn, offer us naught but a caricature of a more philosophically rigorous atheism. Those of us who subscribe to a radically incarnational view of reality certainly want to affirm that humankind can indeed be good for goodness sake. We can and do pursue truth, beauty, goodness and unity because such a pursuit is its own reward. Of course, we also view our existential orientations to these intrinsically rewarding values as transcendental imperatives. We believe that humans can recognize and realize these values without the benefit of special divine revelation. So, we acknowledge the possibility of an implicit faith even as we maintain that, with an explicit faith, believers can move more swiftly and with less hindrance toward these values on lifes transformative journey. I enjoy natural theology, metaphysics and philosophy but acknowledge that beyond our evidential, rational and presuppositional arguments, which, at the most, establish the reasonableness of faith, it is our existential experience of God that gifts us with a confident assurance in the things we hope for. Beyond our abstract speculative formulations and cognitive propositions, it is our participatory imagination that best engages reality, not just religiously but also scientifically and philosophically and relationally. This imagination is shaped and formed by liturgies of the mall, the marketplace, the stadium and our worship, where we learn (and finally decide) to most desire one Kingdom or another. So, we do not even want to deny that one can live a life of abundance and realize lifes great values without an explicit belief in God (even as we have our own faith-based interpretations of why this may be so and Who makes this possible). Neither would we deny, however, that a life of faith is a life of SUPERabundance, enabling us to journey more swiftly and with less hindrance along The Way.
Matthew Holloway
@Bosco Peters Again Bosco you seem confused about what the Teapot Atheism is actually about. Its not about supernatural beliefs such as gods (Zeus, Thor, etc.) or trying to measure them scientifically. Like you, I agree that theres no way to objectively detect and analyse any gods. Teapot Atheism is instead a statement about how we decide anything in life and what the default position is. Are we all agnostic about faeries, or do we just say they dont exist until its proven otherwise. As religion seems to be a touchy subject, imagine if I said that theres an dinosaur in my garage but I wouldnt let you see it. Would you be agnostic about the dinosaur or would you simply say it doesnt exist until shown otherwise? Now what if the dinosaur is a dragon? http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/Dragon.htm
morgan
Wow Just noticed that they managed to get the $20,000 they were after.
morgan
Regarding the use of the word probably; Theyre using that word because theyre being honest. They cant be 100% certain. No one can. Thats where science comes in. But in this area theres no way to use science to test for God. I think anyone that claims with 100% certainty when it comes to faith is either delusion or arrogance. I dont know with 100% certainty that God is real, but I have faith that he is. I think its commendable of them for using probably where they are. It suggests theres hope for them and that should they find faith theyre open to it.
Bosco Peters
@Matthew With respect, I do not think that I am at all confused about the epistemological methodology of the Teapot Atheism analogy. I am merely highlighting that whilst it is applicable to your other objects: faeries, dinosaurs in garages, dragons, etc. It is totally inapplicable to God as God is not an object. Existence is not predicated of God in the same sense as it is predicated of, for example, a teapot.
To use other examples: the number three or beauty are in two different categories again. In what sense do you understand the number three existing? Or beauty existing? Or are you atheistic about those as well. What epistemological methodology do you use to test for or deny the existence of three or beauty? And before you start putting God in the same category as three or beauty, may I stress again that the apophatic tradition and the insistence on the transcendent nature of God means that placing God alongside three and beauty may be helpful pointers but they are merely signposts and not the destination. Using your single Teapot Atheism methodology epistemologically you cannot prove * that anything exists beyond your individual experience of it you may be a brain in a vat being fed data to give the illusion (cf. the Matrix) * that these other 6ft columns of protoplasm with interesting results to stimuli that you encounter all around are persons in the sense that you perceive yourself to be * that the laws of nature will in the future be anything like you have perceived them to have been in the past (yes they always have in the past prove that therefore they will in the future) * that your friend/partner/spouse actually cares about you/loves you * that you have any freedom (limited though it be) to type the letter s or to choose the letter p You will need to convince me that you actually live by Teapot Atheism and use that solely as your epistemological methodology for all of your life not merely blog discussions.
Bob
Hi Matthew, As religion seems to be a touchy subject, imagine if I said that theres an dinosaur in my garage but I wouldnt let you see it. Except that in the case of The Holy Bible, it contains testimonies and eye witnesses accounts of many people stretched across thousands of years (long before The Birth of Christ). The teachings have been embraced and defended with/by many lives till today. Would you die to defend your belief that there is a dinosaur in your garage? Atheist arguments really have not progressed much. Same ol comparing silly thing with God. On the other hand, Theist argument has. Check out Kalam cosmological argument: http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/how-to-defendthe-kalam-cosmological-argument-just-like-william-lane-craig/
Bob
And a good discussion about the teapot: http://talk.thinkingmatters.org.nz/2009/russells-teapot/
Paul 'The Canterbury Atheist'

This as far as Im aware is the only time the 25% (and growing percentage) of Kiwis who have no superstitious beliefs have ever bothered to unite and say we are here and an integral productive part of society. and open debate on religions role in the new millennium. More so now we have religious zealots threatening our way of life and safety of our fellow citizens. Reminder to all its not atheists who fly planes into buildings crying Dawkins is great. Reminder to all the most peaceful and prosperous nations on the planet are the most atheistic. The message is appropriate the more definitive There is NO God having been banned by the bus companies as too controversial. For those that get upset about the message how do you know what God it is the advert is referring to for staters? One imagines if the adverts say said there is probably no Zeus or Apollo you would agree. It could be one of the thousands of Gods and not the one you happen to subscribe to the chances are very small given the number. I have offered $1000 to anyone who can give me a definition of God (refer my blog for conditions) and no one has even come close to giving me a coherent explanation. On the weekend I had a Seventh Day Adventists knocking on my door and a flyer for The Alpha Course placed in my letter-box so advertising ones beliefs or lack of them is a two way-street and not one of you has a problem when it is the superstitious who are advertising their hocus-pocus rather than atheists who say they dont believe or need it. Have a good Northern Winter Solstice (a.k.a Christmas) Im getting naked all day on the 25th. Peace to all mankind. Paul.
John Sobert Sylvest

Good examples, Bosco. In ones anxiety to annihilate metaphysics & God-talk, one does away with natural science and common sense. So, scientism, logical positivism and radical empiricism have all been considered philosophically bankrupt. We cannot prove empirically and demonstrate logically 1) common
sense notions of causality 2) the existence of other minds over against solipsism 3) realitys intelligibility over against an epistemological nihilism 4) first principles like noncontradiction and excluded middle 5) a rational and ordered cosmos 6) and so on. This type of skepticism is indefensible because one ends up sawing off the epistemological branch where ones own ontological eggs are nested. We all, then, move forward with a fundamental trust in uncertain reality. In other words, we believe these things in order to know more things. For some, this trust remains nowhere anchored and paradoxical (cf. Hans Kung). For believers, it is justified in God as we believe in Him in order to know even more. This is not so much a way to think about any part of reality, in particular, but a way of interpreting the whole of reality, in general. Science was largely birthed in the cradle of Christianity and stillborn elsewhere (cf. Stanley Jaki). In the much more philosophically rigorous arguments, ones concepts are carefully disambiguated and divine attributes are deliberately predicated (univocal vs equivocal vs relational). As you point out, in our attempts to increase our descriptive accuracy of a God-concept, we must be clear whether we are proceeding through a) affirmation [kataphatically] or b) negation [apophatically]. Terms used to define the reality (not existence) of God employ only negative properties, hence such attributes are not logically impossible to coinstantiate in our arguments (Gods goodness and omnipotence). This not only guarantees the conceptual compatibility of any attributes we employ in our conceptualizations of God but avoids any absurdities of parodied logic (unicorns and faeries). This is not something that can be explicated and made accessible in this space but for any who want to dig deeper, look here. In the end, proofs regarding primal realities like God-concepts and self-subsisting quantum vacuum fluctuations yield only Scottish verdicts, unproven. The arguments are not unreasonable though. They are eminently reasonable. One has a great deal of epistemic warrant in leveraging ones fundamental trust in uncertain reality into a trust in One who grounds that trust. Such a belief is what is known as a 1) forced (not to choose is to choose), 2) vital (regarding our most insistent longings and ultimate concerns) and 3) live (philosophically reasonable) option. God is not an object of our finite senses but the ground of reality: primal being, primal cause, primal ground, primal goal, primal destiny, primal law, primal value. In Christianity, we meet Him in the concrete lived experience of Jesus Christ and His followers, who have articulated the truth we have encountered in creed, celebrated the beauty in liturgy, preserved the goodness in codes and laws and enjoyed a fellowship in authentic community. Its more so a participatory reality than a cognitive thing. Its like knowing ones hometown even if it is difficult to draw a detailed map for someone else. Sometimes, its like knowing your beloved but not being able to put into words the reasons for your love with its just-because-ish-ness. Being in relationship to Jesus and His church is a reward in itself, just like the intrinsic rewards one gets from pursuing truth, beauty, goodness and unity, which is why we ascribe such attributes to God and call them divine. One can pursue and realize some truth, beauty, goodness and unity without a belief in God and many apparently do. I can only say that my relationship to God is very much like that and that I suspect we are all
articulating and celebrating these realities best we know how. Life is good, aint it?
Chris Rigby
If as you argue: God is neither physical. Nor an object. You cannot use scientific methods to detect or analyse God. Then one has to ask what the relevance of god is? If he is unmeasurable then he can have no physical effect on the world and is thus as pointless in our daily lives as a supernova in a remote galaxy. If you argue that he has a personal or emotional effect on the world (in the case of inspiring people to be good). Then the actual conceptual definition of god is irrelevant as the same effect could be achieved with any number of conceptual falsehoods that we could tell each other to inspire decent behavior. To use one of your earlier examples. If the existence of god can have no measurable effect other than behavioral in its followers, then he might as well be Santa or the tooth fairy as any protagonist in the mythological story is interchangeable to achieve the same social result. And throughout human history this is seen to be the case as society mixes and matches to the god(s) or godess(s) of the time. The actual existence or non-existence of such a being is irrelevant by your argument and only the story and the results matter. Why dont we just drop all the silly mythological stories to justify decent behavior and just progress down a humanist path without the un-needed lies and fear?
Chris Rigby
Also in reply to your argument against the teapot I am merely highlighting that whilst it is applicable to your other objects: faeries, dinosaurs in garages, dragons, etc. It is totally inapplicable to God as God is not an object. Then I think you really need to define the god were talking about here. Or your defense of _any_ religion is identical and the argument that any religion is false or true becomes meaningless. By your argument if any non-entity god is defensible we might as well be worshiping Zeus or Hecate for all the difference it would make.
Chris Rigby
@Bob Except that in the case of The Holy Bible, it contains testimonies and eye witnesses accounts of many people stretched across thousands of years (long before The Birth of Christ).
And yet, isnt it strange that in a time of mass media, omnipresent cameras and communications technology there is a rather long running absence of any visual evidence or eye witness testimony? You would think that if god had spent most of his time burning bushes and leveling cities like he did in the old testament we would still be seeing such behavior today? Yet in a time when we are unprecidentally connected and able to collect evidence and measure things beyond our ability to ever do before, suddenly god has gone very quiet hasnt he? It all seemed to happen around the time the bible was written then nothing since? Seems awfully suspicious to me. If God really does care about us and want us to be good, why hide? Why not provide evidence? No Christian has ever really answered this one to me satisfactorily. If god really is working in mysterious ways by hiding from us then isnt that a bit crap? I mean thats really rather setting people up to fail. And lets not even get started on the Problem of evil in a world with an infinitely good god.
John Sobert Sylvest

Most human knowledge does not advance from strict formal argumentation. Especially realities like truth, beauty, goodness and love are not proved through syllogisms. So, too, with God. If God could be reduced to a mere object of sense-perception, then, in principle, by mere definition, wed not be dealing with God. Still, through various apologetics evidential, rational, presuppositional and existential arguments have been devised for God. The arguments are numerous. Any given one of them, alone, as a strand, cannot really do much heavy epistemic lifting. Taken together and wound as individual strands into a cable, the individual arguments form quite a strong and resilient cable of belief. This is analogous to a cumulative case approach in legal theory where one is weighing the preponderance of the evidence, or seeking an even higher level of proof, beyond a reasonable doubt. This does not result in a final, unequivocal proof, which is why, with integrity, we refer to it as faith. This faith is not unreasonable. It is at least equiplausible vis a vis other putative accounts of primal reality. Here we can apply an equiplausible principle, which impels us to choose the most lifegiving and relationship-enhancing existential response, when confronted by two equiplausible accounts requiring pragmatic or moral action. For example, if we are in a dark yard and see something on the ground that could be either a snake or a stick, we shall treat it as a snake and leave it alone. Or, we may encounter an uncertain universe and wonder if it is friendly and decide that one with God is a more beautiful and life-giving notion. Now, beauty does not lead in a truth-conducive manner directly to truth. However, as scientists, we do recognize its truth-indicative nature, which often leads indirectly to truth via symmetry, elegance, parsimony, simplicity and so on. Humankind has found the cumulative case for God very compelling,
overwhelmingly so, this despite the theodicy problem of reconciling a good God with evil. This is resolved thru formal arguments by employing only negative predicates (mentioned earlier). But, in the end, any good theodicy will retain an element of mystery, which is to recognize that it will remain not wholly satisfactory. Jesus did not come and answer any of the questions posed in Job or the psalms about suffering. At least, He did not deal with same propositionally. Instead, He responded by suffering with us and affirming reality and Gods goodness. Many accept the notion that God, in His utter fullness, had to shrink in order to make room for creation. Many process theologians view God as participating in realitys unfolding with us as free co-creators. In fact, realitys probabilistic rather than deterministic nature makes room for our freedom. True love requires true freedom. True freedom allows for loves rejection, which is evil. From this perspective, the question changes from why is there evil to what am I going to do about it. At any rate, I believe that if the cosmos was any less ambiguous for us and any seemingly less ambivalent toward us that our belief in God would come very close to being coerced, thereby limiting our freedom of response and resultingly diminishing our love. Again, as it is, humankind finds the cumulative case for God to be quite compelling despite theodicy issues. One could argue were very close to being compelled the way things are.
John Sobert Sylvest

We know from semiotic reality, in biosemiotics and the coevolution of language and the human brain, for example, via Baldwinian evolution, that there can be a downward causation without the violation of physical causal closure. This is to recognize and affirm that a tacit dimension in reality can be ineluctably unobtrusive yet utterly efficacious via an implicate ordering. By analogy, we do not need to locate divine causal joints to reasonably interpret reality as being influenced by God via a divine matrix which controls the initial, limit and boundary conditions of reality. The classical distinctions between primary and secondary causality are not only as viable today as yesteryear but are even more understandable in terms of modern semiotic science. Imagine a rock flying into ones yard over a neighbors fence and breaking a window and inflicting other physical damage. We can only examine its effects. We may wonder if it was thrown by a child or an adult or a lawn mower or a baseball pitching machine and rule out all of the above possibilities based on known physical parameters regarding the velocity, acceleration, mass of the object and so on. We are employing, then, an apophatic approach, increasing our descriptive accuracy by saying what the CAUSE was NOT based on effects as would be proper to other known causes. Analogously, for the cosmos as a whole, God would be such a cause for that effect (the cosmos) as would be proper to no other known causes. And we would predicate of this God all manner of apophatic attributes (not this, not that) and analogously suggest, via kataphatic attributes, only what he is LIKE via metaphor. To wit, God is non-contingent, non-dependent, not subject to contingent laws, not natural, not logical law (a number, a
mathematical truth, a Platonic form or some other abstraction), not spatiotemporal, non-finite, not deficient in any sense. Again, one needs to look at this definition to see how it is immune to parody and logically valid as a modal argument. Interestingly, some would say that this God would be unrecognizable to folk theologians and the average believer, which may be true. It is, however, the God of the early church fathers, classic medieval philosophers, mystical theology and modern day theology, Whom ordinary folk access existentially through prayer, liturgy and community, even if not via formal construction. The average believer is employing kataphatic metaphors, of course, along with some concrete historical experience of Jesus and church community.
Bosco Peters
It is interesting so far in this very good discussion, and thank you all for your positive contributions, that those arguing for atheism appear to be following certain pre-set lines, rather than actually engaging with the material in this thread. Those arguing for theism are responding to specific points made. No theists here have so far presented an exclusivist position, as it is termed in Philosophy of Religion, yet that is assumed in the arguments presented by atheists here. No theist has so far distracted the thread as atheists have by talking about different religions, rather than focus on the question at hand, Theres probably no God? Thanks John for raising this thread from the alpha level of God being a supernatural being that I was wanting to move away from as I mentioned at the start, towards kappa and beyond, also for the link which adds the Ontological Argument, recently interestingly revived by Gdel and others, to the Cosmological Argument mentioned above (also recently revived, as noted there). I think, John, Paul in a comment above was offering $1000 you might like to claim (although he did switch from seeking a definition to wanting an explanation whatever an explanation of God might mean). @Chris I do not think I need add anything to Johns response to your idea that only that which is measurable can have a physical effect on the world and thus have a point in our daily lives. As to your inability to find a single Christian who can explain why God hides that, surely would be covered in the most basic apologetic text you must have turned to? CS Lewis Screwtape Letters Chapter 8 surely must be known to many Christians that you have turned to to pick just the first simple very well-known text that springs to my mind. If there are new points not covered in the comments above, I hope people will continue to add them. Otherwise, thank you all again for the positive tone of this thread, and let us hope that this quality of discussion continues when the actual advertisements are run.
Bob
Attention atheists, please research the kalam argument and William
Lane Craig. It explains how the latest cosmological scientific theories are in support existence for a cause for the whole physical universe. http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/04/08/how-to-defendthe-kalam-cosmological-argument-just-like-william-lane-craig/ Stop using play on words and old fallacious arguments. If youre really interested to know the truth, then start digging into philosophy and modern scientific findings. Read from both sides or you will just be fooling yourselves.
morgan
@Bosco Are you censoring the posts? There was another post addressing the use of the word probably that I posted after the comment about them having crossed the $20,000 mark. Ive got a screen capture of it with the awaiting moderation banner so I know it was posted okay.
Bosco Peters
In relation to some of the comments, it is worth being reminded that the concept of the Big Bang was first proposed by a priest, Georges Lematre, when the scientific community presumed that the universe was eternal (steady state). So much so that, while Fr Georges called his proposal the hypothesis of the primeval atom, others mocked his idea, with Fred Hoyle sarcastically calling it his Big Bang theory. It has only been a little over four decades that atheists have had to agree with theists that the universe had a beginning and have been scrambling ever since to make sense of this every theory I have seen has tended to require more complicated acts of faith than the elegant, simple acceptance that God is. @Morgan I dont know what you thought I would find in your post contrary to the comments policy (linked from my original post) I only run this site voluntarily, by myself, & in spare moments because it is such a popular site it receives a lot of spam (over 10,000 currently). I thought that was all well explained in my comments policy. Doing a search for probably I managed to find it and it is now on the site.
morgan
@bosco Cool. For those that missed it the post was back here.
John Sobert Sylvest

Ive met quite a few atheists over the years, all whod rejected gods
whom I would never choose to worship either.
Patti Lao-W o o d
Thanks John Sobert Sylvest. I empathize with Atheists to some degree, the god that many Christians promote is not the one Im familiar with either. My God cares not a jot whats advertised on the side of buses Hes more concerned with what inhabits/inhibits the passengers. Gandhi said something like Of Jesus I have no doubts but of his followers I have my concerns. I have the greatest respect for many a great thinker/ orator on the things pertaining to our faith but unlike Christ, their data is questionable. Sorry Bosco that was rattling around in my head and I had to get it out
morgan
@John Sobert Sylvest Do you chose not to worship them for the same reasons? i.e. a lack of evidence for their existence in the first place?
Patti Lao-W o o d
My point was that some atheists are as such, because some christians are the worst manifestations of the things pertaining to the Christian faith. Atheists are no threat to any faith its zealous christians that worry me. The God I worship is the God of godsits not complicated. Other gods must exist or who is God the God of? According to Scripture there are other gods but our focus is on the God of them all.
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Theres probably no God?

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56 Responses to Theres probably no God?

Hi Bosco it was Mike Hosking not Mark Sainsbury!

I have heard it said, there is no true atheist

Cynde Jackson Clarke

Thanks, Peter, that publicly gives away how little TV I watch

Jean Paul Datuin

John Sobert Sylvest

And a good discussion about the teapot: http://talk.thinkingmatters.org.nz/2009/russells-teapot/

Paul 'The Canterbury Atheist'

John Sobert Sylvest

John Sobert Sylvest

John Sobert Sylvest

Attention atheists, please research the kalam argument and William

John Sobert Sylvest

whom I would never choose to worship either.

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