Commission on Public Information and Communication

September 17, 2007

MEETING COMMISSION ON PUBLIC INFORMATION AND COMMUNICATION 1 CENTRE STREET, 19TH FLOOR NEW YORK, NEW YORK SEPTEMBER 17, 2007 10:00 A.M.

Commission on Public Information and Communication

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BETSY GOTBAUM, P R E S E N T:

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Public Advocate, Chairperson BRIAN ANDERSON,

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Commissioner, Dept. of Records & Info. Svcs. GAIL BREWER, Council Member ANTHONY CROWELL, Mayor's Office of Operations TAL GOLOMB, Corporation Counsel CRAIG HAMMERMAN, Public Advocate Appointee EMILY JOHNSON, Dept. Of Information, Technology & Telecomm. BRIAN KASZUBA, Deputy General Counsel, Public Advocate's Office EMILY RUBINSTEIN, Mayor's Office of Operations

Also Present: Gene Russianoff

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Counsel. MR. CROWELL: Anthony Crowell, be taken. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Good morning. At P R O C E E D I N G S

this time I'd like to officially convene the September 17, 2007 public meeting of the Commission of Public Information and Communication. At this time I ask that the roll call We'll start to my left. Please state

your name and who you represent, for the record. MS. BREWER: I'm Gale Brewer, and I

represent the City Council. MR. ANDERSON: Brian Anderson,

Commissioner of the Department of Records. MR. GOLOMB: Tal Golomb, Corporation

representing the Office of Operations. MS. JOHNSON: representing DOITT. MS. RUBINSTEIN: Emily Rubinstein, Emily Johnson,

representing the Mayor's Office of Operations. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: I'd like to

welcome all of you and thank you for coming to this meeting of the Commission of Public Information and Communication; or COPIC, as we'll refer to it.

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication Special thanks to the Mayor and his administration for sending representatives. I'd

also like to thank Speaker Quinn for appointing Council Member Gale Brewer as the City Council's representative. Council Member Brewer has long been active with COPIC and has done a stellar job as head of the Council of Technology and Government Committee. Thanks to Craig Haberman for agreeing to be my appointee to COPIC. (Indicating.) Craig has served as District Manager of Brooklyn Community Board 6, and has exhibited strong leadership in the area of information technology and will be an asset to this commission. COPIC, as you know, was created in 1989 in the City Charter Revision. Its mission is to Here he is.

help make city government more transparent to the citizens and to encourage the public to become more actively involved in government. Although COPIC has never been properly funded, it has had some important accomplishments. The commission was instrumental in the creation of

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication Crosswalks in 1990, which became WNYC. In 1993, it published a Public Data Directory of computerized information produced or maintained by city agencies, through the help of private funding. Finally, in 1998, COPIC was last convened under Mark Green, and it produced a guide to the New York State FOIL and Open Meetings Law, through Public Advocate funds. Since that time, there has been a surge of new technologies in our daily lives, from online search engines to instant messaging, and government agencies are relying on computers more than ever before. It is because of this constant change in technology that COPIC is now more important than ever to insure that the government is doing everything possible to take advantage of the new ways it can communicate with the citizens of this city. New Yorkers today need access to public information just as badly as they did two decades ago when COPIC was first formed. With the changes

in technology, we have a unique opportunity to

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication further enhance the idea of open government. That's why we are here today. As

Chair, I wish to work with the members of the Commission to discuss substantive issues that need to be addressed, and that COPIC can have a real impact on. COPIC is instrumental for FOIL. One

issue I would like to hear discussion on is how COPIC can be instrumental when it comes to FOIL, freedom of information. I believe COPIC can play a role in helping to mainstream and update FOIL rules in New York City. There is a Mayor's executive order from 1991 that's called the "Uniform Rules and Regulations for all City Agencies Pertaining to the Administration of FOIL." However, many agencies have promulgated their own FOIL rules, and this order has never been updated to take into account technology advancements and to comply with changes to FOIL. COPIC members can make recommendations and see to it that this is fixed. COPIC members can also lead training

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication sessions for media, public agency heads and agency staff on proper records retention, disclosure and FOIL. In 2006, a State law was passed to broaden the authority of courts to award attorney fees when government agencies failed to comply with FOIL. Now, the court has the discretionary authority to award costs and reasonable attorney fees when the agency had no reasonable basis for denying access to records, or when the agency failed to comply with the time limits for responding to a request, no matter how many members of the general public are affected by the noncompliance. It is in the best interest of the City to shore up FOIL practices immediately, to avoid potential costly payouts in legal fees. COPIC can

help save the City money by leading these training sessions. I think we can all agree that money

the City saves in legal fees can be much better spent in other areas. These are just a couple of idea I

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication believe COPIC can work on. I'm looking forward to I

hearing more ideas from you during this meeting. hope we can leave here today with a working agenda for moving forward with COPIC. As I mentioned before, due to lack of proper funding, our task will not be easy. However, that doesn't mean we cannot accomplish some great things.

This would be the first commission that succeeded under similar circumstances. Like the

Voter Assistance Commission, which the Mayor worked to revitalize despite if having no funding for years, COPIC can achieve success. Again, thank you for coming today. At this time, I would like to move to the next item on the agenda and turn the floor over to Emily Rubinstein, from the Mayor's Office of Operations, to give a presentation. MS. RUBINSTEIN: Thank you so much.

I'll pass these out. (Indicating.) MR. CROWELL: We thought we'd give a

short presentation on all the ways in which the City has evolved with technology, in terms of

Commission on Public Information and Communication

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication giving information to the public and how it generates and disseminates it. MS. RUBINSTEIN: Some of the

information you may already know, but I just wanted to highlight all the things the City is doing to provide public access to all the information out there. So, the first slide. leverages its existing FOIL. and NYCTV. The City

You have 311, NYC.gov

And by leveraging these things and

improving them in the past two years, we have created easy access to information, improved customer service and enhanced performance recording. I'll go into details. access to over 60 city agencies. NYC.gov provides Through 311 it

receives 40,000 calls a day, which is very impressive. There's translation services into

different languages, and as you probably know, NYCTV provides coverage of mayoral and City Council activities. One of the other exciting opportunities we have online is our mapping technologies; and these have improved incredibly over the past two

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years. Comm. On Public Info & Communication We provide residents with access to New

York City map, and you're able to... information about public transportation, schools, fire houses, hospitals et cetera, in your neighborhood; and you can choose from a whole list of items that you want to highlight. to navigate. Two new tools that have come out, probably in the past year or so, is the New York City Business Express and Access NYC. These are It makes it really easy to use, easy

two tools that are serving different clientele, but have improved customer service enormously by helping the public navigate through City processes and programs that are available to them. First of all, Business Express is an interactive website that allows you to figure out what permits and licenses you need to, say, open a restaurant. Right now it's just focused on owning restaurants, but we're expanding on that to other kinds of businesses, so that small business centers, et cetera, can more easily find out what kind of paperwork they need to fill out, forms, et cetera and to find them to fill them out.

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Not bad. Last, we have, over the past years, very much made an effort to improve those recording mechanisms we have for reflecting to the public how the City is doing. The Mayor's management report is issued twice a year. We've made great strides in Comm. On Public Info & Communication It also has provided incentives to businesses that are available. Access NYC is a free online service that helps individuals figure out what programs they are eligible for. So rather than having to go

to ten different places to figure out what you might be eligible for, this is an easy wizard that tells you whether or not you would be access eligible for benefits, health care insurance, et cetera. It's very easy to use. I tried it out.

streamlining it, making the information in it easy to understand, accessible and has really relevant information for everyone in bite size bullets, et cetera. Local Law 47 provides reports on information coming into 311. That's available

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication online and passed out to various stakeholders. Essentially, the printout summarizes, by agency and subject area, on the information that's coming into 311; the number of calls and also how that breaks up in terms of, are people calling about potholes, or about noise, et cetera. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: you can imagine. MS. JOHNSON: There are other tools Much discussion,

reflecting our performance, the citywide accountability program, which is CAPSTAT, on line, that allow you to access performance indicators for each agency; and it provides a wide variety of information. We're constantly looking to improve that tool and make it more meaningful and user friendly. Next, we have another mapping tool which is great. It is neighborhood statistics, and

it breaks down by community board, information related to safety in a neighborhood. It's

organized -- you can see on the tabs -- rather than by agency, it's really by subject area. Health, education, human services,

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication infrastructure, et cetera, and you're able to look at the statistics in your neighborhood and see how it is performing. Last, I wanted to point out that there are all these tools available, and one thing we are thinking about is to create a portal to all of these outlets for the public; and we are looking over the next year to aggregate that into one site where we can access them. That's one possibility the Mayor's Office of Operations can work with you to help. Thank you very much. you have questions. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: site fits into separate entities. I think that the I do think that Let me know if

their site is user-friendly, in terms of parents, et cetera. Next year they are doing a site for It has a name. I

teachers; pretty impressive. forget the acronym. MS. JOHNSON:

I know NYC.gov has

different sites for businesses. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: entity of its own. MS. JOHNSON: Thank you very much. This was an

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: We'll go to a

discussion by Commission members and the proposed rules to govern COPIC. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: of suggestions. We have a couple

My experience with COPIC goes back That's a long time

to the days of the Crosswalks. ago.

To the credit, it was actually Nat Leventhal and others during the 89 Charter, Eric Lane, who suggested this particular mechanism for -- the word "Internet" did not exist at the time. As you know, I'm a huge supporter of the activities that NYC.gov listed. The question is, for today, having seen what it was like -- at one point there were eight staff members when COPIC first existed. And, of

course, during the Giuliani/Green era, it was World War III. And so there was no funding and it limped along. We did produce some materials, but There are so many

it was really very rudimentary.

issues that today could be part of a discussion. One of them is, in terms of governing, how do we keep the information so it is available

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication to the public? Even what we are doing sounds like

a small group here today; but if people understand that this is a mechanism for discussing how the public can communicate, they would participate. I love to see that we have a stenographer or some other way of keeping notes for COPIC meetings, whatever the possibility is. Funding is involved, I assume, for that. Once we have minutes, they need to be approved just like Robert Rules of Order; and they need to be done within a couple of weeks, it seems to me, in order to comply with the open meetings law. That will be by motion. And we also need to discuss where we would post notices for future meetings and have a discussion on that. The City Record certainly

covers it, but it would be good to work with -again, this being an open meeting, the discussion for the City of New York, convincing some of the blogs and/or newspapers to cover COPIC and publish the fact that they exist. When we had hearings in the Technology Committee on openness and COPIC -- at one point we did have one during the budget -- needless to say,

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and others. Comm. On Public Info & Communication the newspapers, for their own reasons, are interested in this topic. I think it's mostly

because of the FOIL issue, but there's a lot of interest from in their participation. I guess I have a couple of suggestions We would like to have a stenographer

or other appropriate method for keeping minutes to make sure they are publishable within two weeks, or at least marked "Draft" if they haven't been released and approved by the body. We would certainly like to have a discussion where we would, hopefully, have some notice, including the City Record, but we would love to have other locations, too. three suggestions for COPIC. Any discussion? MR. HAMMERMAN: The Charter Revision Those are my

Commission, the Voter Assistance Commission, all these other commissions seem to have their own individual dropdown listing on NYC.gov. Would it be possible to set up a COPIC selection on that menu, as well, and then post information there? It is a very popular website, and we

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication might as well take advantage. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: website should do the same. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: MR. CROWELL: Anybody else? The City Council

I think a website would

be sort of a good foundation. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: real part, the lack of funding. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: second on it? particular -MR. HAMMERMAN: On the point of the You want a Let's go to the

Is there any discussion of these

stenographer, would it be possible to webcast the meetings, video them and broadcast them on WNYC or another outlet? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: funding issue. MR. HAMMERMAN: With all the talent and Maybe. It is a

wisdom and experience together at this table, maybe it could be done in-house. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: sounds very old fashioned. Do we need a second on this? MR. HAMMERMAN: I second. "Stenographer"

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not funded. "Aye." (A chorus of "Ayes.") CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Gale, you know the history. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: It was only Lack of funding. Comm. On Public Info & Communication COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: We need to vote. All in favor, say

funded at the very beginning of '90; and it was somehow tied into the Crosswalks funding, if I remember. It was Such a long time ago. It was

Basically, we ran it out of the

enlarged Public Advocate's office, because there was more staff at the time. It never had a budget.

It is hard to know what be you involved, in terms of a budget. Certainly, in

order to pull it together, obviously some of the things just mentioned even now about the budget would be helpful. helpful. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: something we ought to talk about. I think it's If you can't The Public Advocate would be

hire a staff to run it, what are we going to do? If we need the funding, how do we get it?

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication MR. HAMMERMAN: Do we have any idea what The

the bare-bones budget would look like?

overhead expenses, that might help determine what direction we look at. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: What it says is,

you have an executive director, a council, and any other officers necessary to carry out the functions. It's very vague. MR. CROWELL: What about using an

existing staff, the way the Voter Assistance Commission did? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: assist you with? MR. CROWELL: I'm talking about within Something to

the Public Advocate's office, people you could dedicate. This is how we did it with the Voter Assistance Commission. in, When Mayor Bloomberg came

the Voter Assistance Commission had a similar There was just an office manager who just

problem.

passed that information. But then we hired an executive director, and what we do is part of -- there's an independent entity administered through DCAS. DCAS

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication has no role in any policy decisions, but they sort of serve them. had for OATH. The Public Advocate's office could be similar to that, serving -- you are the Chair. could, similarly, host that. staff. Originally what we did, all of ex-officios offered their staff to work collectively on back issues, until we had developed a program that then, sort of, said, "There is a programmatic need." director. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: what happened previously? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Crosswalks was Gale, isn't that Then we hired an executive You could dedicate You It's a service similar to what DCAS

administered -- I don't know who administered it, in 1989-1990 it might have been DCAS. that a came from that agency. At the time,

There was no Public

Advocate at that time, so it was in between. The Public Advocate, when I was there, did it ourselves. It was not extremely successful.

I do think it's possible to work with the agencies to see if there isn't some support from the staff.

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guide. research. MR. CROWELL: You take it from there. Comm. On Public Info & Communication CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: If you have the

experience where it's worked, we could try it. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: A lot is

It took us, from the time Mayor Bloomberg started in January of 2002, I think we hired our executive director, finally, I think, two years in. have been -- probably two years. COUNCIL PERSON BREWER: MR. CROWELL: (Inaudible.) It might

We did the video voter

Our choice as to who to hire was informed,

because it was the person to run a community access television station previously. So she came in to

do that and lead the change on the video voter guide. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: something we should consider. notion? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: We can move to I think that's Should we make a

say we will work with existing staff and try to put it together in a much more accelerated fashion. don't have two and a half years. A much more We

accelerated fashion, using staff from other -- to

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication figure out what kind of staff we need. Using existing agency staff -- we could probably call on other agency staff if we needed it. MR. HAMMERMAN: It's been my experience,

banging our heads against the wall to get an increase in our budget, that's probably going to be a tough angle to come from. One of the ways we have been lately working around that is, first of all, in our community board we formed a...organization and, second of all, we're using that entity status to leverage some grants. In fact, we get one through DORIS to pay for our website, and things of that nature. It's the local government records grant from New York State. Indeed, it has really helped us

leverage a considerable amount of resources available. I suggest we explore those avenues, as well as outside funding from the State, federal or City agencies that may have competitive grants that we can apply for. It seems somewhat ironic.

At the same time, what I would be

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for you. opinion. Brian. mission. Comm. On Public Info & Communication concerned about is, to be able to provide that money on an ongoing basis, how COPIC could become self sustaining. I suggest that can always be our core When it comes to budgeting, anything we

do, COPIC is not a revenue-generating entity, so we need to be concerned with where the money is coming from in the future, even if we get it today. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: The idea is to

try to have either a formal 50133 or a pass-through 50133. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: It's absolutely right. what are we doing here? We could use it.

We've got have to have -We need a clear program I

before we can even begin to think about it.

think that's absolutely right, the model of that is a good one. WNYC is privately owned. MR. CROWELL: We have good news on that

Corporation Counsel has rendered an That came up in my conversation with On Friday afternoon, they told us they We would just

think it would devolve to NYC-TV. need to delegate that.

They will put something in

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writing. MR. GOLOMB: It seems clear from the Comm. On Public Info & Communication

history of the Charter Revision what role they want to play on this board. Now that WNYC has changed,

in some things... be satisfied that they could fill that role. There are A lot of things in the Charter where you have the Board of Estimate or different stuff where we have to interpret, what do they really mean when the entity changes without going back and having a referendum every few years when things do change. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Office have appointments? MR. CROWELL: appointments. We will make Does the Mayor's

We didn't have enough time in the

past week or so. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: recommendations? MR. CROWELL: recommendations. You could give us Do you want

I think we have to sit down and

look at what's needed, in terms of requirements, a community board member and a media member. Given that a community affairs unit or

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication a community assistance unit, I suspect there will be lots of people who will emerge from our commissioner, and then media. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: The other day on

CUNY TV, with Brian Lehrer moderating, there were four or five topics. Believe it or not, it talked

about COPIC, new media and public access. You night want to look at that particular show. times. group. It was probably repeated a few It was an interesting

It was unbelievable.

Brian would know, and so would CUNY TV.

They were fabulous. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Shall we move to

the substance and direction of COPIC? First is establishing a timetable to hold Charter-mandated public hearings. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: figure out what we are doing. hearings. We need to

We had those

People show up because everybody has

ideas about government, communicating with the public. One of the issues would be which direction

to go in before we have the hearing. It would be great to have some of the folks going to be appointed. I think they have

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication some great ideas, and I think that would be the first step, to have those folks appointed and have a meeting with everybody who's a member of COPIC, to come up with some ideas. Mayor Bloomberg's office has done a great job with public access, not such in the past. The question would be, are there any other ideas? I do think having somebody from the news media would help. Between the blog world and

the newspaper world, not to mention television, there's also the issue of public access channels. We have wonderful ones in our city. always thought there may be a role for them, in addition to doing their regular programming. It was actually the... commissioner's suggestion, not mine. On the public access I

channel, he suggested more "banding," whatever the word. CNN does it, with hurricane in Florida.

He's always felt there should be a lot more of that going on, not only with public access, but with regular cable and the TV stations. MR. CROWELL: It's a scroller or

ticker; you get two programs at once. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: And you get

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whatever. thing. Comm. On Public Info & Communication information about the City. crisis. Hopefully, not just a

They do it in a lot of other cities, in

Florida, but not here. Little things like that. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Who does that? I would assume He

that the idea was given by the city government.

says in Florida, it is a huge way of communicating for the public. go a great way. Even today, on high rise safety, or It could be anything. That kind of That's the Something simple like that would

Many other ideas could come up.

kind of issue, something simple, the lawyers and others on the FOIL issue, another whole discussion. I would love to see something simple like this idea implemented. It would be great. You are making a

CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: suggestion for the next meeting? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

Everyone who is

appointed attends, and perhaps we could publish a proposed agenda in advance, getting people's ideas on that. hearing. And then, as soon as we can, do a public

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: What about the Is

idea of producing a new public data directory? that necessary with all of the -MR. HAMMERMAN:

It seems to me -- that

is something I was quite interested in seeing, being somebody who is a power user of 311, and somebody who relies on all of this information. It can be quite dizzying to try and navigate the various systems, and so I'm really intrigued that the Mayor's Office has taken it on to create a public access portal. The notion of a data directory is a bit dated, but translates well into this more current version of a public access portal. If we can somehow combine forces, that this could be a joint venture between the Mayor's Office and COPIC, then we could satisfy our core mission and at the same time, perhaps giving the Mayor's Office a broader perspective from outside of the Mayor's Office on how the data is being used and how people are seeking it. The collective

experiences are something of value we can bring to the table. MS. JOHNSON: I'll be happy to talk

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there. offhand. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: It's a mapping program. What is it? You can go Every building in phenomenal. MR. HAMMERMAN: MR. RUSSIANOFF: Gene would know. It started with us. NYC? MS. RUBINSTEIN: MR. CROWELL: No. That's Is that Buildings? Comm. On Public Info & Communication more about that. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: Who does OASIS

COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

Maybe the CUNY Graduate Center. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: It's an example

of extremely good -- Probably it's Gene Russianoff somewhere, off in realty. MS. JOHNSON: That's an example. I'm not familiar with it,

the City of New York, and it tells you about that building, and the violations, and who built it, who lives in it and everything. It is all, of course, originated with... and is now part of... empire at the CUNY Graduate Center.

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FOIL? MR. CROWELL: What we are doing now, Comm. On Public Info & Communication My point is to involve some of these other folks in whatever has developed. MR. HAMMERMAN: Incredible.

I try to support the

government resources by using it. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Can we talk about

we have what I consider to be a pretty good operation, in terms of using the Law Department as a central resource for all questions that come up on FOIL. There's a person named Steve Goldent

who's the City's resident expert on FOIL, and we certainly have taken the opportunity to make sure that our general counsel and the Freedom of Information Law officers have all the information about the latest developments. There are regular meetings at the Corporation Counsel's office. There's one on

October 25, for example, where these things are imparted to them. And certainly, when FOIL appeals happen, there's always a cognizance about the new requirements, in terms of making sure everything is fully disclosed, to avoid something being Article

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go to court. Comm. On Public Info & Communication 78 and going to court, and running the risk of having attorney fees. That provision of law is fairly new, about the attorney's fees. I don't know the extent

to which attorney's fees have been required to be paid by the City agencies. any. There aren't that many FOIL cases that I can look into that. It's a rather I have not heard of

new provision, so not that many.

I can tell you

that the Law Department is very, very diligent in making sure when appeals go to court, that they try to get as much out there and review what was given out, to try to settle any cases; in case there was something withheld that shouldn't have been. know that could be the case. It is an important issue to bring up. I'm not terribly concerned, given the kind of steps that the Law Department is taking on. As a matter for FOIL, generally, it's good to tell people how to make a FOIL request, what to expect. The Committee on Open Government I

has been a resource for everyone, in terms of getting opinions on freedom of information laws,

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication and the applicability of the freedom of information law, and giving guidance, as well, to the public. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I think the

issue is for some people, what they're trying to accomplish, which makes it hard on your staff. want everything to do with horses," for example. MR. CROWELL: very helpful. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: everything to do with horses." to figure out. You work on it. "I want We did have one. We were "I

That's a hard one Of course, they

get frustrated, and they called everyone else trying to get the same information. Those are the kinds of discussions that would be helpful; maybe it makes it easier on your end. And at the same time, the public feels that I have no idea.

there may be different procedures. You do the best you can.

Often in this city, FOIL is a great deal of information. Maybe your life could be made

easier and your staff by having clearer guidelines that mandate open access. I don't know.

There's one issue for the newspapers and another issue for the public. I don't know

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication which is more time consuming or which is responded to. I have no idea. I think most of them are worked on a timely basis, but you have to tell people you will get back to them. quickly. MR. HAMMERMAN: That goes back to what They send me a copy very

the Public Advocate said in her opening remarks about the -- 1991 -- is that something that -- they would update? MR. CROWELL: I think the Law

Department has issued clear guidance in legal memorandum to... officers. I'll look at that

executive order to see the extent to which it -some agencies have codified rules, but mostly off the same template. Everything, of course, is

trumped by the public officer's law, because that is gospel on how it is to be administered. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: I have one

particular specific question, which is, how is the Department of Education covered? covered? MR. CROWELL: Like any other agency, In what way is it

they are subject to public officer's law, in which

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication FOIL is codified. They have FOIL requests and

they're covered in the same exact manner -- a public entity, correct. MR. KASZUBA: MR. CROWELL: (Inaudible.) Individual FOIL requests If there is

don't go through the Law Department.

an issue on whether something should be disclosed or not, you would call the Law Department for guidance. "I have a document that looks like this, I have a request like that; do I give it out? Do I redact this? Is there an issue of personal Is it

privacy for a member of the public? something with a contract award?

Am I somehow

infringing on a law enforcement investigation that may be ongoing?" These are very common issues, and you have to be sensitive to very specific issues that are in some documents; and some documents may be documents released to the public, and so you rerelease them. It is a simple as that.

You have to look at each document with specificity to determine whether it was disclosed -- or responsive, and to what extent all

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication of it or a portion is disclosable. MR. GOLOMB: The Law Department gives

ongoing counsel to City agencies on all sorts of things that might apply to that particular agency. It is not that something will get fixed in time and that's it. reviewed. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I think if we New things come up constantly to get

could provide an education campaign on the issue, if nothing else. I get a lot of calls from people

who applied for FOIL, and I find where is in the tracking system. I don't know if it is possible to track it on your part. These are some of the ideas.

It's like with 311, to the credit of the commissioner, there was an effort with 311 to "close the loop." I applied for my pothole, and you know when the pothole is fixed, when the man arrives with the truck and it gets fixed. But it would be

good to know that on March 2 it is going to be fixed, and on March 2 it is fixed. And so you

don't have 311 being called, "When is my pothole going to be fixed?"

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statute. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: In terms of the online. Comm. On Public Info & Communication MR. CROWELL: Not online? It will be

COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

It will be listed as "pothole fixed

March 2," or whatever. MR. CROWELL: legal matter. FOIL is what I consider a

I think It is very difficult to put You suddenly discover a If I

a specific time on things.

new document, and "Wow, it's a lot of stuff. gave it out am I hurting anybody?"

In general, you send letters out to people and tell them when it's reasonable to expect when the documents are going to be disclosed, if something is to be disclosed. The only other thing is, I have a concern about giving the public -- we take efforts to protect -- if an individual makes a FOIL request, you don't want to out somebody. lots of different variables. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: disclosure... every two minutes... MR. CROWELL: That's provided for by The City Council There's

issue of training sessions, is there interest in

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update. Comm. On Public Info & Communication the part of members here to do that? MR. CROWELL: Training sessions for the

public or internal staff, or both? CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: I think for the

internal staff of agencies, is first. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: I don't know if I don't

the Bar Association does that sometimes. know. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: for the public? MR. CROWELL:

How do they do it

I know we did two

training sessions for the record access officers. We can certainly do that again. I'm not sure. We

should look to the Committee on Open Government to see if they have online resources in that vein. We can certainly look to see about The Law Department does send out memos. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: There might be

ways, either through television or webcast or web information. It could be clear. I have a file.

Again, ways to think about it for the public. You get the people who do it all the time, and they are knowledgeable. Then you have

some people who do it once in a while.

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication MR. HAMMERMAN: When you think about the

public and what kinds of training sessions would be helpful, what kind of subjects come to mind? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: The only one

that comes to mind right now is those horses. MR. HAMMERMAN: You would be helping the

public on how to access information from city government? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: What happens is,

people will ask for everything to do with horses, give it to me. Or the DEP, o4 in my building, I get that all the time.

about asbestos removal.

I thought there might be a better way to help them get information. I assume that

agencies get that, agency staff, and people tell me that. It is not a huge problem. The purpose, to

me, is to make government accessible. MR. HAMMERMAN: Certainly, it should

help organize the way the requests are submitted. It may increase the load, as far as how many they receive. If they can handle it efficiently, that

shouldn't be an issue. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: In March, 2008, The

there was a book called "Open Sunshine Week."

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication question would be, what public education campaign could COPIC do during this particular weekend, and leading up to it, what could we do? and recommendations. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: topics is the Esther Fuchs issue. One of the When she was in Suggestions

charge of the Charter, she had a list that she shared with me of all the publications. not put it on the agenda for the public. complicated and it was not the right time. I'm a big believer in reports, but not if it's not necessary. to consider. advance. That would be another topic She did It was

Again, we would have to work on it in

For an open session week, a lot of the

issues, perhaps, could be part of an open hearing. It would be a great time during that month or week. MR. CROWELL: I think that's a great

idea about the government documents that are required but perhaps have been superseded by other documents or outlived their usefulness, due to changes in other laws. It's a great idea. I would

be very supportive of that. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: It's something

that might, in fact, as a public record report

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication becomes... working to do something that translates

a past report into something that could be current. Again, I don't know what that could be. lots of ways of thinking about it. website or a blog. I don't know. There are

It could be a All the

possibilities are worth a discussion. MR. HAMMERMAN: Does it exist anywhere

some kind of central compilation of all of the reports mandated to be produced by agencies? MR. CROWELL: MR. HAMMERMAN: retention schedule -MR. CROWELL: Right now, it's mandated Sure. I know the record's

by local law, all the reports that are publicly issued by agencies have to be sent electronically to Commission Anderson so the Department of Records can post them online. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: What Esther put together, something -MR. CROWELL: I love this idea. I was on that commission. We There's more.

which I have a copy, is

It is good government.

divert so many staff resources in producing reports that aren't maximizing -- we could actually improve

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topic. Comm. On Public Info & Communication other reports with better information by -COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: compilation. site. There is a full

We could match it with what's on his The site is It's well done. That

This is a discussion.

wonderful.

A huge amount of work.

Not everybody participates as they should. would be another topic. THE SPEAKER: Compliance?

COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

It's a good

Both the list that exists, perhaps updated,

and how local laws work and how it could be publicized in a way that is helpful to people to know the reports are there. are part of the discussion. MR. CROWELL: We could pick up on We know, because we

where the Commission left off on this work and do it here. It could be very thoughtful and we all

had learned a whole lot from it. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: And include --

some electronic possibilities, something people would see, something that was visual, in addition to audible would be interesting. MR. HAMMERMAN: Would you envision

perhaps inviting all of the agencies that are

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lot of work. looks like. Comm. On Public Info & Communication mandated to submit reports to comment on the timeliness and the formats and information they are providing? MR. CROWELL: Perhaps. We have done a

I would have to look at what the work There is a fairly lengthy list. We

should just look at that, and see.

We should see

the extent to which agencies have already commented on this; and you can ask agencies. Or, you could have staff solicit agency input up front, and then have a baseline of information and then ask questions or invite certain ones in. lot reports. MR. HAMMERMAN: for changing mandates? MR. CROWELL: Local law, generally. The issue is What is the mechanism There's a lot of interest in a

COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

always how much to put online and how much to do written. today. These are issues that can be discussed It is a hard challenge. Every time you change the MMR, there is a big discussion. I don't know any more what is

right or wrong, but the public sunshine is the

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to decide. it over. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: The other issue Comm. On Public Info & Communication whole purpose of it. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: to get a list. MR. CROWELL: I'll package it and get It would be good

is, I think the Council had a hearing where the issue of availability of the municipal broadcasting resources, and the fact that many franchises will come due in 2008 . COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: There's an

ongoing franchise regarding Verizon, and you are quite familiar with it. We could talk more, more I guess

discussion; and then in 2008 is the cable. they are kind of merging, timewise and substantively.

Of course, there's a big national discussion going on. The question is -- I'm a big

supporter, and to make sure I have and municipal and public and all the other ways in which schools and libraries, so many good things from that initial cable franchise. If we would have input, it's up to us There's another communication aspect of

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granted. involved. extensive. discussion. Comm. On Public Info & Communication this body. There's also the Land Use Committee of

the City Council. MS. RUBINSTEIN: We look for the cable

renewals and anything that this committee could audit; and to raise awareness, how much benefit citizens get from that resource would be great. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: We need more

There's always a question of -- this

is coming up with Verizon -- has done great work with the schools and libraries, and now what's next? Maybe there's for City Eye Net There are so many aspects to this.

It's a very hard, complicated issue for the public to get its hands around. discussion the better. boards will discuss it. MR. HAMMERMAN: I didn't anticipate it. We were also I think the more I don't know if community

COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

I was there for all the hearings on

Cable Vision and Time Warner. I think people sort of take it for Then we didn't. This is brand new, has Today everybody

to everywhere, don't cherry pick.

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quarterly. meeting? Comm. On Public Info & Communication says, "I have cable." What's the big deal?

It would be good to have some discussion along those lines and how it's incredibly important. We would love to do

something different and not have to do all that work. We have to come up with some new ideas as to where the franchise could go, in terms of area, territory. That would be great. It's a

banner idea, just one example. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM:

There are many. Does anybody else

want to bring up any other topic or additional ideas or items we should talk about? Do we have an agenda for the next We have to think about that. MR. HAMMERMAN: envision doing this? How often did you

Weekly? Gale, again I have

CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: to rely on you. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

I think we met If March is

Perhaps we could do that.

a good jumping off place for a real hearing on some of these topics. We could take a couple more

meetings this fall.

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication MR. CROWELL: I agree. The report You would want

thing alone requires a lot of work.

a professional presentation to the public about the range of information that's out there now, what is required to be out there. I would just harken back to the Charter Commission did it this way, and without committing anyone to how to do it currently.

Is this the direction to go, and sort of deleting from local law those reports that aren't as useful and bolstering current reports and combining reports, whatever it may be. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: pretty much a blueprint for that? MR. CROWELL: I think so? Somebody has to Isn't there

CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: pull it all together. MR. CROWELL:

It requires a fresh look. In the next week I'll And then step on

We could report back to you.

send you that commission's work. the FOIL that I promised.

We will undertake that

quickly, and get back to you. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: the publications with the capstone. It listed all There wasn't a

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idea. Comm. On Public Info & Communication technology response to it. That was something more

innovative, and that was something we could get input on. MR. CROWELL: I think that's a good

It's an alternate way to minimize cost and

staff time. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: it out if we can. MR. CROWELL: I think our goal is to But if I agree to cutting

enhance information to the public. something is not useful -COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

There may be a

way of doing it more creatively, getting the information out. I think the newspapers -- it

would be great to have somebody from the media. They could do a lot more. with Brian Lehrer. Just to get you to cover community board meetings in Brooklyn or Manhattan is like pulling teeth. Just to say it is happening. That was the discussion

Certainly, with city government, it's hard to find out. There is no media coverage of some of these

coming-up programs. Similarly, with some of these reports

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Comm. On Public Info & Communication or whatever we want to call them, how could the media cover them? I believe in NYC-TV. Between that and

the City Council, they could do more. MR. GOLOMB: The blogs changed that. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: How could the

city government interact more with Gotbaum and the whole long list? I don't know the answer to that.

Putting something on these reports in a way of getting blogs to participate would be great. Somebody from the media who understands blogs would be great, whomever you select. MR. CROWELL: Okay. There was a huge

COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER:

discussion about ethnic media, how it needs to play a role in city government and doesn't. There are

eight Chinese newspapers, we know that already. They are there for a whole series of reasons, but definitely government was part of it. It's not

covered by the representative newspapers. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: mid-November? work on this? MR. CROWELL: Even before that, but Should we aim for

That will give us two months to

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that. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Maybe we could before. MR. CROWELL: something together. CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: Any other items? COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: agenda for mid-November. We have a lot of Anything else? I'll have my crew put Comm. On Public Info & Communication that's fine. MR. HAMMERMAN: We would get to see it

We're got report issues,

trying to think how it could be presented for a hearing, the FOIL issues. If you have

appointments... for November, it takes time to get new appointments, too. MR. CROWELL: It would just be a review. COUNCIL MEMBER BREWER: That takes time. No advice and consent.

If we could have your new appointments by then, that would be great, a big addition. about a portal down the line. deal. MR. HAMMERMAN: I would love to work on Maybe ideas

It would be a huge

look to March for a public hearing with this,

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establish a website for posting the minutes to comply with state law? MS. JOHNSON: We will let you know. Motion to

CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM: adjourn, then? MR. CROWELL: Motion.

CHAIRPERSON GOTBAUM:

Thank you very

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________________________ JEFFREY SHAPIRO I, Jeffrey Shapiro, a Shorthand Reporter and Notary Public, within and for the State of New York, do hereby certify that I reported the proceedings in the within-entitled matter, on Monday, September 17, 2007, at One Centre Street, New York, New York, and that this is an accurate transcription of these proceedings. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this _____ day of _____________, 2007. C E R T I F I C A T I O N