RELIGION & GENDER: AN INTERVIEW WITH HIS HOLINESS BHAKTI VASUDEVA SWAMI

a publication of Sanctum: The Journal of Religion at Columbia University

His Holiness Bhakti Vasudeva Swami (Vasudev Das) is a religious leader of the Gaudiya Vaishnava Hindu faith, a doctoral researcher of leadership and organizational change, and a scholar of the social sciences. He was born in Bayelsa State, Nigeria, and commenced his wide-reaching religious and communal activities there in 1984 with the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). His Holiness frequently travels around the world to educate diverse audiences on the values of love, peace, unity in diversity, self-realization, positive change, and community development. His Holiness sat down with Sanctum to discuss the subject of religion and gender. Is there a role gender plays in religion/spirituality? If so, what is it? Gender and spirituality are in essence mutually exclusive, in the sense that gender does not really play a significant role in spirituality. Why? Because genderism has to do ephemeral material bodies, whereas spirituality is something that has to do with the eternal relationship of the jva, or spirit soul, with the Supreme Spirit. And we call that Supreme Spirit, in the Vaishnava tradition, as Krishna, meaning the Personality of Godhead who is all-attractive. Why is He all-attractive? Because He possesses six outstanding immeasurable opulences. So, spirituality essentially implies a reunion of the spirit soul with the Supreme Spirit, in the mode of loving devotional service unto the supreme Lord. And this reunion has no barrier in terms of the strategy, because it has a spiritual bearing, and the material bodies do not in any way impede this connection, this deep loving relationship with the Supreme Soul, with the Supreme Personality of God. Therefore, gender does not play any significant role in promoting spirituality. Rather, each and every individual, male or female, could actually utilize his or her human resource to be able to reconnect with the Supreme Lord. Because ultimately, God is spirit, and we are also spirit. It is a reconnection based on the essence of both the Supreme Spirit and the individual spirit - the jva, or the individual spirit soul. Therefore, gender has no negative impact on the process of spiritual cultivation, inasmuch as our bodies are simply vehicles to be used in reconnecting with the Supreme Lord. So whether you are a man, or you are a woman, in these things, there are no inhibitions. There are no inhibitions. Rather, we should utilize the human form of life In fact, Krishna, in the Bhagavad Gita, specifically mentions that whether you are a woman, or you are a child, or whatever, you could actually attain or approach the Supreme Personality of

Godhead in devotional service, and obtain the supreme destination, which is going back to the kingdom of God, or Goloka Vrindavana. So, that is why I indicated or mentioned that gender is not a problem per se in spiritual cultivation. But historically, women have been - across cultures and religious traditions - more often been marginalized and/or restricted in religious contexts. Why has this been so? In the conditioned soul, or human beings in general, we have this tendency to control. We have this tendency to subjugate people. In fact, there was a time that some cultures had a belief system that women couldn't really have souls! But, this is completely unfounded or bogus propaganda that is simply geared towards exploitation of women, or to simply subjugate women. In fact, there is even marginalization - it's not simply restricted to women. Women are not the only people being marginalized. For instance, there are minor groups, or minor tribes, in the majority of countries across the globe - who have been marginalized. And even people have been marginalized based on race. And people have been marginalized based on religion, and based on color. So, the point is, see, we have a deficiency. We are prone to trying to subjugate people, and trying to marginalize people. So, women are not exclusively the marginalized group that we have on the planet, for whatever reason. But again, we find that, in some countries, women may have even the same qualifications with men, but they are not paid an equal salary. So, that is marginalization - but then, you can say that, that is not even rooted in religion, in religious principles. It's just some sociological political worldview. But then, the point I'm making is, we human beings, we have a tendency to unduly control people. We have a tendency to unduly subjugate people. We have a tendency to unduly exploit people. And we have a way to rationalize why we do what we do. This is the nature of our cheating propensity. Therefore, if even women are being marginalized, it is not something that is exclusively happening to the womenfolk. Rather, so many people have been marginalized on this planet, based on the different rationalities. And therefore, if women are being marginalized, that's not fair, because we are all spiritually part and parcel of the Supreme Lord. And therefore, Lord Krishna mentions in the Gita, "mamaivmo jva-loke, jva-bhtah santanah" - that everyone is God's part and parcel. So why would we marginalize someone? Why? Because we are living in gross ignorance. We are living in gross ignorance of our pristine identity. And when there is this gross ignorance prevailing in our lives - there is a dominance of gross ignorance in our lives - we don't know our original position, we don't know our original identity. Then we are bound to miscue, and utilize whatever abilities and capabilities we have at our disposal to simply exploit, subjugate people - whatever you call it - marginalize people, bastardize people. That has been going on in this planet since time immemorial. Now, because we have a tendency to exploit, we have a tendency to cheat. In fact, cheating, exploitation - that is one of the natural proclivities of our condition existence. So we may have different reasons why we have to marginalize people - and not just on women; like I mentioned, sometimes the marginalization is based on political difference, or cultural difference, or just a difference in religious ideologies, or just based on the body, or gender.

But all of these are simply based on ignorance - ignorance of our pristine identity, that we are all part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna or God. And if we take a step further to understand the higher principles operating in the universe, then we should be able to realize that even a child, an old person, a woman, a man - we have the same spiritual quality, the same spiritual opportunities. And therefore, the bodies we have should not be the yardstick to measure our spiritual validity. The bodies are simply jackets that the individual souls are wearing. And the individual soul may wear the body of a woman by dint of requital that she is having to pass through - in other words, by dint of past activities. So, if someone is a woman, and is given the opportunity to be able to serve and distribute the message of Godhead, that is also a way of honoring the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Because everyone is reflecting that love that God has for us. And so whether the person is a woman, there is no need to really minimize anyone, inasmuch as we are all spiritually equal before God. Except that we have different physiological arrangements, because of types of bodies - but we have equal chances to be able to attain the Absolute Truth. And therefore, there is no need for people to profess to marginalize the group of people they call women. Can someone really try to marginalize his mother? So, the point is, the respect that we give to our mother, we should try to give that type of respect, love, and honor, to every woman. Every woman should also be given a chance to attain that supreme goal of the living being, which is to attain pure love of Godhead, Krishna prema. And in that way, people are given a chance, to be able to recreate their future, and to generate strategies to be able to enter into the bandwagon of spiritual reunion with the Supreme Personality of God. Therefore, I don't see any reason why women should be marginalized. You explained how women are not spiritually different. But women are in fact physiologically different. How does that affect, or should it affect, their role in faith - in how they practice their faith, in how they preach their faith, and in how they teach others? Yes, that is an important area, because for instance, a woman could be pregnant for nine months or eight months, carrying a baby, and especially when they give birth, if even they are working in a corporate office, they need some leave to be able to nurse the baby. So what they can do is, more or less, very intense. And if we know that, or if we really share the zeal, or share the view, that they have high responsibility - in terms of even having to take care of the baby, and taking care of the home, and managing the family, and all of this type of stuff that is a good reason for us to give them the emotional support they need, to be able to function properly in these areas. As far as their bodies inhibiting or facilitating devotion, there are one or two basic things that we need to know. Now, women especially are having so much of potency. If, for instance, a man and a woman, a husband and wife, are doing the same hours of work, say eight hours. When they come back from the office, the man is tired - he goes to sleep. The women, in most cases, they continue to with helping out to make some preparation for the children and for the family, and the man is tired for the day. So from a practical observation, we can see that women have a lot of potential and even kinetic energy, more than men.

Now, if that energy is directed properly, in the service of God, in the service of Krishna, such women could excel even more than men in devotion. The problem is, we do not really care so much - people don't really care so much about how to properly direct the energy of the women. Now, if the energies are not properly directed, some energies could be abused, and it could be destructive to society. Therefore, their physiological settings notwithstanding, they have a better chance to be able to excel, by dint of their conserved energy. Their physiological arrangements notwithstanding, they have a better chance of excelling in devotion, if their energies are properly channeled in devotional culture, or in devotional service. The problem is, in most cases, people don't take cognizance of ways on how to channel the female energy in devotion, so as to be able to create a viable future in society. So, granted, they have different physiological features, but that does not in any way impede their devotion. Rather, when they do have a need for emotional support, especially when they are pregnant, and when they are giving birth to kids, then it is up to the partner or members of the community to rally around to give the appropriate support, so that they could quickly get through those challenges, and again revamp their spiritual energy, to be able to tread on the path of devotion. And we find that, in the Vedic culture, the most exalted devotees of the Lord are actually women. For instance, the mother of devotion, the best of the devotees of the Lord, is a woman. And for instance, even the gopis, or the most exalted devotees of the Lord, they are females. And again, that brings to bear that if women are given a chance, if the female energy is properly directed in creativity in the service of the Lord, they could really excel - in most cases, even more than men. But if they are not properly channeled, then we find that the same energies could be very disastrous for society. So it's a matter of utility being the principle. When we utilize the energies properly, dovetail, these energies in the service of the Lord, people are very productive. The women are very productive. And they could really become people that could set a good example, as far as devotion is concerned, in inspiring and motivating people on the path of devotional culture. And so, if the highest perfections in devotional culture, like in the Vaishnava tradition, if the highest devotional perfectionists are females, that should give us a signal that women should never be relegated the background. They should be given equal opportunities to be able to serve the Lord, so as to be able to attain their original position as servants, purified servants, and be able to attain that ultimate goal, which is love of Godhead. So in essence, the physiological settings we have, it does not really impede our formative progress in devotion. And of course, the soul is not a woman. It's not a man. The Supreme Lord is the Purua - He's the Enjoyer. And we all - we are putting on different jackets: jacket of a man, jacket of a woman, small child, old man. This has nothing to do with the reality of existence, which is the soul. So we have to go beyond this bodily designation, and probe into the essence of life, which is that we are all spiritual entities, part and parcel of the Supreme Spirit, Supreme Personality of Godhead. And when we understand that, and give everyone a chance to excel in devotion, we'll be doing a lot of justice to the principles of devotional culture, and in elevating human society beyond the mundane perception of reality.

What is the potential of women with regard to spiritual leadership - leading in their homes, and leading in their communities, especially? There are a lot of potentials there. For instance, I'll give you a vivid example of one of the recent world religious leaders, and that is Mother Teresa. Is she a man or a woman? [Laughs.] We see things, and we tend to just blindfold our eyes, because we are biased. We see these things. Now, even in the Vaishnava tradition, Lord Nityananda's wife was a guru, or a spiritual preceptor, or a spiritual master. And so, the point is that when we don't see beyond the ephemeral, then we could become biased. Any woman who is really a serious practitioner could actually excel. So when we talk about leadership, women's leadership - even, for instance, in ISKCON, most of the temples a number of the temples in the United States we have women as the temple presidents. Even in the highest policy formulation board the GBC, Governing Body Commission there are women there. That is the highest law-making body in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, and there are women there. And so, how could we say that women are not in a position of leadership? In other religious traditions, again, it boils down to this but even, I know, in the case of the Catholics, there are a number of women nuns, who are championing different leadership positions, amongst the women and even amongst the congregation. So, again, if we dont really investigate properly, we dont make our research properly, and then we come to generalize. In the academy, we dont generalize things, except if we have some quantitative studies done. It is best to generalize when we utilize an ethnographic strategy in addressing the issue. Because we cant just study a few people in a particular setting, and then come to generalize that the whole world is like this, we dont have women in leadership. It might be in one tradition, but Im talking about the global context. And I just gave an example of Mother Teresa being a woman leader, a global woman leader not just a woman leader in one country, but she was a global leader, respected all over the world. Of course, we do know that in some traditions, for one reason or the other, women are being subjugated. But the point remains that they are not really practicing genuine, authentic, or transcendental spirituality. You see, if the whole thing is based on the body, then we dont go beyond the body the old concept, the old concept that women are inferior, and therefore they should be subjugated. There was a time that the role of women was just circumscribed to the kitchen. But we have women scholars nowadays, discoverers - and big, big researchers. So, the point is, we should give up this negative tendency of trying to minimize people, based on our ignorance of our pristine identity. We should give up this false pride, thinking that we are the body. We should give up this false misconception that we are more important than anyone else, and everyone else should just be our servants, and we should utilize everyone for our sense gratification. Its all based on this horrible type of mindset. We are thinking so many things, but it has all to do with I and mine which is not a very creative way of looking at things. Because we should be able to encourage people to invest their energies, and contribute their quota to the global society, whether it is through religion,

or in the academy, or whatever. We should encourage each and everybody, whether as a woman, or whatever, to make their inputs, instead of trying to marginalize people or subjugate some set of people. We think that they are not qualified, or we are not qualified. Sometimes, we are just afraid that people are going to excel more than us. Its like you will find in some places, some continents, some employers they will not want to employ someone who is very intelligent, because he is going to overshadow them. [Laughs.] So, we should not be afraid of our positions. We should be very liberal in trying to engage everyone, and value people, and evaluate people based on their real capabilities not about our perception of what we think they are. So it is true that in some traditions, some women could be minimized, or could be marginalized; but again, those traditions are not recognizing the potencies of women. They should be able to explore more areas, more ways to acquaint themselves with the potentials of the womenfolk. In the modern day, some people are attempting to change the traditional household roles of men and women. How does, or should, this affect the roles of spiritual life in the family? We understand in principle that cultures are different, and so we cant impose a culture in one country on the whole world. So what is practicable, for instance, in Africa, may not be very much applicable or practicable in America, and may not be very much applicable in India. And all of those things are just simply based on dea, kla, ptra time, place, and circumstance. People make all of these adjustments, just to be able to create a viable future, and a stable family. Now, if there is some understanding some men dont have a job, and the wife is the one working, for instance then, what of the dictation that the wife having to shoulder all the responsibility of working and coming to feed the family, and then again being responsible for the child? So, the person who is not working should be able to take care, to assist in the family developments, of taking care of the child, or whatever else. That is something that the husband and wife could work out. And of course, some men dont like their wives to work, and some men like their wives to work. And some women dont like to sit at home alone; they are professionals, and they would like to work. Again, for me, I dont see anything, that could really change the primary order of ethical values. Working or not working is not really the issue or even who stays at home to take care of the baby is not really the issue. How do we develop ethical values in the home? How do we develop spiritual culture in the home? Now, if the man is spiritually inclined, then that will motivate the family. If the wife is spiritually inclined, that will also motivate the family. Now, in the case where neither of them is spiritually inclined, we dont expect that the children will become spiritually motivated, because there is no example in the family. Therefore, it is important, within our lives, to be able to sustain the spiritual essence. And that basically implies that men and women, family members, they have to be able to cultivate spirituality together. And in that way, they will create a very loving energy in the family, and

that will in turn create sustainable relationships in the family. And the matter of who actually stays at home to take care of the child that is purely an individual decision. The point Im saying is: if, for instance, if the woman is a medical doctor, and the man, for instance, doesnt even have a first degree, then the woman is the one earning. So, it is the mans duty to be able to support the woman, because she is the one earning for the family, and all the rest of them. But essentially, both of them should have some spiritual undertone; that will help to create a cohesive force of loving relationship in the family. Otherwise, money alone, or needs supplying of needs alone, or buying of so many gadgets, is not really the main source of happiness. Happiness is within us and by becoming spiritually inclined, by cultivating spiritual culture, we can really invoke that happiness that is lying dormant. The soul is, by nature, sac-cid-nanda it is full of eternity, knowledge, and bliss. Now, that soul is having all of the qualities of the Supreme Soul, or the Supreme Personality of Godhead, because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is also essentially sac-cid-nanda is full of eternity, bliss, and knowledge. And so, if we want a blissful family existence, a blissful state of affairs in the family, then we simply have to tap into our inner heart, to reach out to that domain, and we can experience that even in this life. So, the bottom line is that people should cultivate spirituality despite their social structure, despite their family setting, or whatever if they really want to be happy. Because we find that what is lacking in society is spiritual balance. What is ruining peoples families is spiritual bankruptcy. What is sending people what is really catapulting people away from their jobs, what is destroying peoples careers is spiritual bankruptcy. So if we identify this essential factor, then we could realize the need to develop spirituality, to develop spiritually. And then, man and woman, husband and wife, they will be able to come together to have a setting in the home where, before they go out for work, they could really become involved with some spiritual practice that will sustain them for the day. And that makes a lot of sense, because that is like how to feed the soul. We feed the body, but we dont really care to feed the soul, in most cases. That is how we become dry, and we run into so much of difficulties psychological challenges, physical challenges, and whatever. So, it is important for the husband and wife, to have their foundation. The foundation of their relationship should be that of spiritual cultivation, devotional service unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That will actually help to consolidate the nucleus of the family. So, it doesnt really matter who stays at home, or who goes to bring the money. But at least, its both parties who sleep at home. Both parties should just devise a means of coming [together]. Even a little spirituality will help to save a lot of havoc. What would be the position of women according to the Vedic tradition? Are women to be minimized or held in high esteem? We shouldnt minimize women. This planet, according to the Vedic literature, is ruled by Mother Bhmi, a woman. In fact, the whole of this material universe is ruled by Durga Devi and shes a woman. This prison yard is ruled by Durga. And the universal minister of education is Mother Sarasvati, a woman.

People tend to minimize women, thinking that men are superior, and all of these things. Krishna clearly spelled it out in Bhagavad-gt, Chapter 9 that women, children, vaisyas, or whatever, can attain the supreme destination. The other day, someone a medical student, who just graduated she wrote me a mail, asking if women are really inferior to men. I said, but you tell me: how many men of your age, on your street, are medical doctors? [Laughs.] But how many men of your age, on the street where you live, are medical doctors? So would you say that such people are superior to you? In what sense spiritually or materially? In what sense? So, its all based on this: if I tell you, if I try to make some inferiority complex with you, then I can subjugate you then I can use you for my whatever. But it is just too obvious, in even people who are supposedly in the Vedic tradition. These things are rooted in our literatures: the minister of education for this universe is Mother Sarasvati, a woman. The president, the universal president, of this very universe, is Mother Durga. Shes in charge of this prison yard. Its a woman. The ruler of this planet, the president of all presidents of this planet, is Mother Bhumi and shes a woman. So, you tell me you tell me how the ruler of this planet is a woman, and you can say that women are inferior to you. [Laughs.]

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