Needham & Associates

Consulting Engineers
Fort Wayne, IN - Overland Park, KS

Indiana Fabricators
Association
Wednesday December 10, 2003

http://www.needhamassoc.com
 How Can Structural
Engineers Help The
Fabricator
• Be More Profitable!!???
• or, ….What does a Fabricator need
to know about about Engineers???
 Your Speakers
• Jeff Needham, Principal
– P.E., S.E in 12 states, started firm in 1989 in
Fort Wayne
– BS and MS from University of Kansas

• Andy Carter, Principal

– P.E., S.E in 25 states, started in PEMB in
1968
– BS Virginia Military Institute, MS from
Georgia Tech
 What Does Needham and
Associates Do?

• General Practice Structural/Civil

Engineers
• Consultants to PEMB & Joist Industry
• Actively Work for and with Fabricators
(Design-Build, Connections, and Detailing)
Introduction

Question to Fabricators:
Is the Structural Engineer Really Any More to
You than Just a Guy Who sizes
Beams/Columns and does a few drawings?
The Answer Is……………….

• Often SE’s are just member

pickers!! SE’s have abdicated their
role on many projects!
• But we really can and should be
much more!
Our Relationship!
Presentation is Somewhat
Critical of both Engineers and
Fabricators and our
Interaction, So Be Prepared!
Engineer’s Misconceptions!
• All Fabricators are the
Same.
• All the Answers are in the
Good Books of the AISC
Manuals.
• Anything to do with Steel is
certainly static or even dying!
 What Can the SE Do to Help
The Fabricator?…..
Do a Good Job on The Following
Areas
1. Educate Clients 5. Analyze Labor Impact
2. Administer Contracts 6. Recognize Shipping Issues
3. Select Materials and 7. Be Realistic about Finishes
Produce Documents
8. Assist and Plan Erection
4. Provide Engineering During Design
Value Added Services
What Can the SE Do to Help
The Fabricator?…..
Do a Good Job on The Following
Areas

Often SE’s Only Do Number Three…Select

Materials………..
And We Have Competitors that Don’t Even
Complete this Task!!!!!!
1. Educate Clients (An SE Has
Various Clients and Various
Contracts and Scope of Services)
• Educate Owners to Be Realistic and Reasonable. A
Well Educated Owner Makes A Huge Difference!
• Try to Provide Sound Advice and Consulting to
Architects.
• Try to Keep the Contractors Under Control (Good
Luck!).
• Try To Work with All Team Members in a Fair and
Ethical Manner.
An Example of Where This
Worked (ACIPCO)
An Example of Where This Worked
(ACIPCO)
 2. Administer Contracts
• Often Engineers Really Don’t Want to be Involved.
• Evaluate Bids Fairly and With Knowledge.
• Respond to RFI’s Promptly and Accurately.
• Treat Shop Drawings Seriously.
• Be Involved as a Positive Force During Construction
2. Administer Contracts…Other
Issues
How Well SE’s Administer Contracts Depends
on Two Things:
1. Our Scope, Which is Often Very Limited to
Keep Fees Down, and
2. The Type of Our Contract and Who We are
Working For ( i.e. Owner or Architect
Direct versus Design Build).
Successful Contract
Administration: Sunny brook
 3. Select Materials
and Produce Documents
• Hopefully SE’s Do This Well!……but not Always!
• We have Competitors Who Leave Joist and Girder Sizes Up to
Fabricator, this is wrong!
• We have Competitors Who Don’t Provide Dimensions and
Elevations on Structural Drawings , this is wrong!
• We have Competitors Who Don’t Provide Structural Sections or
Details , this is wrong!
• We have Competitors Who Aggressively Over-design, this is
wrong!
• We have Competitors Who Just Plain Do a Bad Job!
Interesting Observation
• Fabricators Have Adapted to The Poor
Quality of SE’s Work Product.
• In Some Cases You have Used it to Your
Advantage by Turning Bad Plan and Spec
Jobs into good Jobs by Value Engineering!
• The Trouble is the Owner Paid for
Engineering Twice to Get the Right Answer!
Other Interesting
Observations
• Structural Engineers Remain Weight Focused rather
then Cost Focused, Why,
• Cost Driven Designs are much harder to do since
costs vary a lot over time…it is just much more time
consuming and there is little incentive for an engineer
to do this!
• Do Fabricators do much to inform SE’s of cost issues?
I don’t think so!
• Very little marketing (other than AISC) by Fabricators.
4. Provide Engineering Value
Added Services

• Use Three Dimensional Modeling Where

Appropriate, X-Steel, SDS etc.
• Integrate Design Models into This Effort.
• Use a Seamless Process from Inception to
Fabrication.
• Needham is a Big Believer in this Approach, we
even have a trademarked name for this:
• Concurrent Design and Detailing…CD2
Provide Engineering Value
Added Services
However…..?
• Much of the benefit of 3-D Models: RamSteel® , X-Steel®, SDS®,
ProSteel®, etc can be achieved by much simpler, value added means.
• Do Accurate Drawings.
• Share electronic files of drawings.
• Overlap Design and Detailing Processes and Cooperate, Avoid
Contractor Walls.
• CD2 Provides Accurate ABM’s.
• CD2 Approach is Good for Design-Build Work.
• This CD2 approach requires much better Project Management by SE
and Fabricator.
Example Job
 5. Analyze Labor Impact
• What do most SE’s know about connection
design…..VERY LIITTLE! They don’t like it
and it is expensive to do for a design
firm…….and it usually gets changed by the
successful fabricator, so why bother!
• Bolted versus Welded Connections
• Why Use Stiffeners?
Kent State University, Example of Cooperation
between Engineer and Successful Fabricator (Connections
got the Job!)
 6. Recognize Shipping Issues
• Engineers May not Consider Depth and Length
Restrictions in Shop and Shipping, (This is a minor
detail to SE’s)
• Engineers May not Consider Cost Impact Depth and
Length Restrictions
• Market Your Shop Capability Information if it is to
your advantage, make it easy for a SE to find a
shop to do what he needs!
Shipping Problem ??

• Fabricated in Indy
• Erected in Effingham, ILL
- 200 feet tall
• Main Shaft is 13’6”
Square
• 14’-0” Bridge Clearance,
oops no allowance for
truck bed height
7. Engineer Must Be Realistic
about Finishes
• Engineers rarely understand finish issues and
requirements.
• Usually originates with Architects on exposed
steel and their expectation is normally
unrealistic.
• Also originates with special use structures such
process facilities, Paper Mills, Mining.
Petrochemical, etc.
 Example

• Terra Technical College

in Fremont, Ohio
• Architecturally Exposed
Structural Steel
8. Assist and Plan Erection
During Design

• Engineer Must be Careful Regarding The

Responsibilities of the AISC Code of
Standard Practice.
• Most Contractors don’t want to Understand
the Code of Standard Practice and Their
Responsibility!
• The SE Must design Structures with Erection
Issues in Mind!
Building Erection Planning (BP Amoco
Corporate Hanger Aurora, ILL)
Building Erection Planning (Hill AFB, Utah)
Eight Areas….Engineers Must Do a Good
Job to help the Fabricator:
1. Educate Clients about SE 5. Analyze Labor Impact
Quality.
6. Recognize Shipping
2. Administer Contracts as
Appropriate.
Issues – Plan.

3. Aggressively Select 7. Be Realistic about

Materials and Produce Finishes – Avoid if
Complete Documents. Possible.
4. Provide Engineering Value 8. Assist and Plan
Added Services such As 3- Erection During
D, EDI, and CD2™.
Design, Participate as
Team.
Summary
• Structural Engineers and Fabricators are Natural
Allies, We have the same goals to satisfy the
Owner/Client.
• Understand the Incentives and the Contractual
Limits and Relationships.
• Fabricators should share more information with
Engineers via Marketing Efforts, Website Data, and
other means.
• The Traditional Methods of Steel Construction are
gong to undergo Major Changes as Electronic Data
Interchange becomes more accepted.
• Design Build-Delivery Can really take advantage of
EDI.
• The Engineer and Fabricator Must form a TEAM.
 Questions?

Thank You!...Needham & Associates

Consulting Engineers

9921 Dupont Circle Dr. W. 8417 Santa Fe Dr. Overland

Ste. 230 Park, KS 66212
Fort Wayne, IN 46825
(260)497-8400 (913)385-5300

http://www.needhamcompanies.com